Hey Rook

WillieBop
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Hey Rook

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2928

 

I just received an e-mail that quoted Rook Hawkins of the "Rational Response Squad" as saying the following:


"RationalResponders.com: White was supposed to contact me ages ago about a debate and he chickened out."
   I would like to make it clear that Mr. Hawkins has never contacted me about a debate, hence, I can not "chicken out" of a debate he has never contacted me about. In fact, I was the one who contacted them to let them know I was going to critique some of his comments on an edition of The Dividing Line. In essence I was told that if I wanted to contact him, I should post on their web board. I have no interest in web boards and their incessant silliness, so I did not. That was the end of that. So what Mr. Hawkins, the self-proclaimed historical expert of the "Rational Response Squad" is talking about, I have no idea. But if his grasp of ancient history is as slippery as his grasp of recent history, well, that says a lot.    

 


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Wow, willie.. you sure

Wow, willie.. you sure nailed him.  Rook tells a guy how to get in touch with him, the guy never does, and um...

So.. yeah... what's your point?

 

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Thank you for posting

Thank you for posting this.  It has shown me once more how completely dishonest theists really are.  He was told to contact me personally (not come on this message board, that's silly).  I had given The Dividing Line all of my information and have yet to receive any email from either party (of the Dividing Line or the elusive White).  I do find it rather amusing that White would suggest that my grasp of ancient history is slippery, considering White believes in all sorts of fantastical things like resurrecting people who ascend to heaven on clouds, faith-healing, and the historical reliability of the Gospels as a whole.  If anything, what this can tell us is just how out of touch Mr. White is with not only ancient history but reality. 

As if this little pros here couldn't bring about more jocularities, White acts as if his theological credentials (in apologetics and fairy tale) mean something when compared to my autodidactism (in real subjects and actual history).   If White wants to debate, he has my information and knows where to find me.  I do not want to lend credence to his delusions; he is not a serious threat to me or my work in the field of ancient history.  I just don't take him that seriously. 

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Hambydammit wrote:Wow,

Hambydammit wrote:

Wow, willie.. you sure nailed him.  Rook tells a guy how to get in touch with him, the guy never does, and um...

So.. yeah... what's your point?

 

 

I posted it because I thought Rook would be interested in what someone was saying about him.  Which he was. 

 

And I posted it if he might want to add a clarification. Which he did.


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Quote:I posted it because I

Quote:

I posted it because I thought Rook would be interested in what someone was saying about him.  Which he was. 

 

And I posted it if he might want to add a clarification. Which he did.

If I have misunderstood your motives, you have my apologies.  Thank you for keeping us updated.

 

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Hambydammit wrote:Quote:I

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:

I posted it because I thought Rook would be interested in what someone was saying about him.  Which he was. 

 

And I posted it if he might want to add a clarification. Which he did.

If I have misunderstood your motives, you have my apologies.  Thank you for keeping us updated.

 

 

No problem.  I just didn't have an email so I thougth this was the best way to bring it to Rooks attention... though now I realize I could of pmed him.


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For future reference,

For future reference, willie, it's good to be sure you've said exactly what you mean.  There are a lot of theists who come on here and just quote somebody's argument instead of using their own intellect.  When you just post something without any indication of your intent, the default assumption (especially since you're a theist) is going to be that you're trying to argue.

Rook has a particularly short fuse on this issue because, well, he argues rather well that there was no Jesus, and pretty much every Christian who's heard of him hates his guts.  When he sees a theist posting something about how he's dishonest, or lied about this or that, the default assumption is that it's an attack.

 

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If I remember correctly, we

If I remember correctly, we didn't find out about James White talking about Rook until after he had already recorded his show.  My recollection is that James White didn't offer Rook a chance to come on the show that he used to criticize Rook.  My memory may be wrong though as I don't care much about James White, seeing as how he's a presuppositionalist. 

For those that aren't aware, we refuse to talk with presuppers as they don't meet the minimum honesty/intelligence requirement.

 

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Am I just stating the

Am I just stating the obvious when I say James White is an asshat?


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Sapient wrote: For those

Sapient wrote:

 

For those that aren't aware, we refuse to talk with presuppers as they don't meet the minimum honesty/intelligence requirement.

 

 

Could you elaborate on that?   Or if it's been explained somewhere else just shoot me an URL.


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It's very simple. 

It's very simple.  Presupposition is so inherently absurd as an intellectual position that it's impossible for anyone to hold it while being both honest and reasonably intelligent.

 

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Hambydammit wrote:It's very

Hambydammit wrote:

It's very simple.  Presupposition is so inherently absurd as an intellectual position that it's impossible for anyone to hold it while being both honest and reasonably intelligent.

 

 

That didn't really clarify anything. You just restated in slightly different words.  What about presup is inherently absurd?  Why is it inherently absurd?  Why would it require dishonesty to hold to it?

For clarification we are talking about TAG here?

 

I guess this probably should move to another forum.

 


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Quote:I guess this probably

Quote:
I guess this probably should move to another forum.

Your guess is my command.

 

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Sapient wrote:If I remember

Sapient wrote:

If I remember correctly, we didn't find out about James White talking about Rook until after he had already recorded his show.  My recollection is that James White didn't offer Rook a chance to come on the show that he used to criticize Rook.  My memory may be wrong though as I don't care much about James White, seeing as how he's a presuppositionalist.

You're right.  James White recorded his show without ever informing me or giving me a chance to respond.  I only found out about it from another Christian internet-radio talk-show host after the fact who was supposed to be coordinating a debate event.  After we agreed to the event (me specifically, that is), James was supposed to contact me and give me the details of the discussion.  He seems to have vanished off the face of the earth, along with the other Christian talk-show host who has decided not to contact me since we initially accepted the debate. 

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WillieBop wrote:That didn't

WillieBop wrote:
That didn't really clarify anything. You just restated in slightly different words.  What about presup is inherently absurd?  Why is it inherently absurd?  Why would it require dishonesty to hold to it?

For clarification we are talking about TAG here?

He's referring to the act of presupposition, not the user Presuppositionalist.

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Dr. White has posted more of

Dr. White has posted more of his side of the story:

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2929


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What a dillhole.

What a dillhole.


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Dear James White (since I

Dear James White (since I know you're reading),

Please provide a means to verify or prove that your presuppositions are correct.   Please provide a means for all of us to test or prove that the believing your God exists before the conversation gets started is more accurate or logical than to presuppose that a giant anteater that hates Jesus exists and that created all of existence.  Please actually answer the question instead of coming off like a hustler who ducks, jives, or diverts from my test.

Please feel free to do so on your aomin site or on a radio show that I would not be interested in appearing on as I find you and anyone who thinks like you far too stupid to warrant any of my time (in fact, this was far too much time already).  I will be glad to eat those words should you show that your presuppositionalist logic actually holds some weight.  

Thanks,

Sapient

 

 

 

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 James White,Please accept

 James White,

Please accept these two threads as the official RRS position in regards to your theological beliefs:

 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15733

http://www.rationalresponders.com/ontological_and_epistemological_blunders_tag

 

We welcome a response to any of the above material.  For the record, the correspondence you posted on your site from our site is an automated response.  Additionally, real evidence would be a print screen showing the date your email to Rook was sent and then showing the date you recorded the show.  Had you sent an email yesterday, you'd have gotten the same response, hence your "evidence" merely proves a letter was sent to our automated box at somepoint in time, but not necessarily with enough time to garner Rooks attention.  Not that giving him enough time would've mattered, I still would have advised him to not give you the time of day.  

 

 

 

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Sapient wrote:Dear James

Sapient wrote:

Dear James White (since I know you're reading),

Please provide a means to verify or prove that your presuppositions are correct.   Please provide a means for all of us to test or prove that the believing your God exists before the conversation gets started is more accurate or logical than to presuppose that a giant anteater that hates Jesus exists and that created all of existence.  Please actually answer the question instead of coming off like a hustler who ducks, jives, or diverts from my test.

I'm not quite sure whether you understand what Presuppositionalism teaches. Although I don't want to speak directly for Dr. White, I think he would say that he does not assume nakedly the existence of God or the truth of the Scriptures. Rather, he would likely state that taking the Bible as a foundation for all knowledge is the only worldview that is internally consistent. Thus, the Christian God would be a bit more accurate presupposition than the anteater, because such a being did not present a consistent worldview to mankind, like God has. 

To preempt your possibly asking how Dr. White came to know this truth to begin with, he will answer that it is due to the irresistable grace of God. From an outside perspective (i.e. from an atheist presupposition, to give those Reformed reading this a bit of a chuckle here) this is why I think Presup and Calvinism go hand-in-hand: as Dr. White says himself on his presentation of the double-predestination Calvinist reading of Romans 9, "I know that the only way anyone can believe this is by an act of grace." 

Quote:

Please feel free to do so on your aomin site or on a radio show that I would not be interested in appearing on as I find you and anyone who thinks like you far too stupid to warrant any of my time (in fact, this was far too much time already).  I will be glad to eat those words should you show that your presuppositionalist logic actually holds some weight.  

First of all, I have not met a single Presuppositionalist who lacks in intelligence, or ignores the application of his or her intelligence. Although I think some self-proclaimed Calvinists seize the system and tout themselves as some sort of haughty, God-chosen Elect with the power to refute all wordviews (Kelly Tripplehorn, of the Texas intern email scandal fame, is a prime example of such an alpha-male chest beater who happily took up this role to make his belittling nature Godly), I have seen much more calm scholarship rather than this type of behavior from Dr. White in his Dividing Line broadcasts. 

Although I am a little disappointed in Dr. White's treatment of this subject in recognizing that the "middle man" radio host that mediated between the two of you is the actual one at fault, you've done the same thing. Although your next post (I thought you said you had spent too much time already in this one) contains Martin's decent but incomplete refutation of TAG, not all Presup uses or even agrees with TAG, so you can't assume that on Dr. White; the other link does not provide a sound refutation and would be chicken feed for Dr. White to demolish in comparison to the level of scholarship and thought with which he is engaged. 

Presuppositionalism is worth your time, and if you're interested in ancient history, you should be willing to at least calmly discuss this matter on Dr. White's show. Bart Ehrman, who (I hope) you at least know about so far in your studies, is to meet Dr. White in a debate this January - if a nonbeliever who has already spent an academic career on the subject of Biblical history is willing to debate Dr. White, this should tell you the level of respect fellow skeptics give him. Besides, if he is stupid, as you say, then you should be able to jump on his program and rout him pretty soundly, although if you do in reality go about it with that attitude you're going to get smashed to bits. 

Kind of strange that the guy with an upside down Calvin as his avatar is defending one of the top modern Calvinist apologists out there, but if you're going to be serious in your future studies, scholarship, and debating, you can't make an assertion that he is stupid without checking the scholarship and testing your theory first. That is, after all, the very thing you criticize them for not being able to do Eye-wink 

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Quote:Rather, he would

Quote:

Rather, he would likely state that taking the Bible as a foundation for all knowledge is the only worldview that is internally consistent.

So basing your world-view on a collection of stories that are riddled with internal inconsistencies, and inconsistent with many aspects of external reality that have been solidly established since those texts were written, is 'pre-supposed' to lead to a consistent worldview????

I suppose that is consistent, if only in being 'inconsistent' at all levels and from all angles...

Sapient's case is proven.

Seriously though, probably demonstrates something I have always held, that there is a class of religious world-view that actually requires a lot of intellectual ability, to devise and maintain a line of argument sufficiently convoluted to effectively mask, even to the person themselves, the inherent absurdities in the ultimate conclusion.

 

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Flagg wrote:I'm not quite

Flagg wrote:

I'm not quite sure whether you understand what Presuppositionalism teaches.

 

But it is you who does not understand.

 

Quote:
Dr. White, I think he would say that he does not assume nakedly the existence of God or the truth of the Scriptures.

 

White does assume god exists. He does not consider "god" to be a naked assertion!

 

Quote:
Rather, he would likely state that taking the Bible as a foundation for all knowledge is the only worldview that is internally consistent. Thus, the Christian God would be a bit more accurate presupposition than the anteater, because such a being did not present a consistent worldview to mankind, like God has. 

 

What god?

A presupposition is the assumption that the naked assertion "god" is a fact that needs no proof. The proof presuppositionalists provide is a circular argument! White is trying to prove 'god' with the assumption that 'god' exists (which hasn't been proved).

 

 

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Flagg wrote: you can't make

Flagg wrote:

 you can't make an assertion that he is stupid without checking the scholarship and testing your theory first.

I presupposed it, so I must be right.

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