For Obama Voters

Hambydammit
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For Obama Voters

In light of the recent post criticizing RRS for endorsing a political candidate, I'm going to say this carefully.  I'm going to vote for Obama.  This represents my opinion, and mine alone.  I am not speaking for RRS as an organization in any way whatsoever.

Now, having said that, if you are also going to vote for Obama, I'd like to encourage you to join me in pushing an issue to the front of the page if he is elected.

From: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081021/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cb_guantanamo_charges_dropped

Quote:

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico – The Pentagon said Tuesday it has dropped war-crimes charges against five Guantanamo Bay detainees after the former prosecutor in their cases complained that the military was withholding evidence helpful to the defense.

None of the men will be freed, and the military said it could reinstate charges later.

This shit's got to stop.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Agree on both counts. >>>>>>

Agree on both counts.

1) It's shit.

2) It's got to stop.


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Ah, yes. This is the Real

Ah, yes. This is the Real America about which we're hearing. These "small town values" really seem to be pretty darned neat, don't'cha think? Sure, it might seem like we're ignoring our own constitution, and we're stringin' up a bunch of innocent folks, but gosh, people, you got to realize that they are terrorists! Otherwise, why would they be in Guantanamo? And our Constitution isn't about basic human rights, it's about securing the rights for ourselves that the rest of the world doesn't deserve. Cause they're terrorists. Or worse, secularists. Some of 'em might even be atheist, and worship the devil.

I think every town should have a Guantanamo. In fact, let's turn those dens of anti-Americanism (New York and Los Angeles, for those who don't know) into Guantamos. It'll save us a lot of time in the near future, when we can force all those anti-American liberals and brown people into camps. We'll concentrate all of them into camps, in fact.

 

Bleh. Excuse me. I think I made myself throw up a little. That's the only thing that can explain this bad taste in my mouth.

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The thing I fear the most is

The thing I fear the most is that Obama won't do anything about this.  There are so many gung-ho GOP hard liners that it might be political suicide for him to do so.  It might be seven years before he can do anything, and even then, it might ruin his successor's shot at being elected.  (Don't kid yourself, by the way.  With Fox on their side, this is a one time deal.  Maybe we'll get two terms, but I'm pretty sure the days of two democrats in a row being elected are far behind us.)

 

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I've actually heard it's

I've actually heard it's likely the conservative era that started in 1980 ends with this election. Anyone some of the more extreme bullshit (such as the torture) even McCain wants to stop. There is a Democratic majority in congress (likely even bigger after this election) and with a Democratic president it should easily be able to be done. Just hope they aren't able to pull bullshit like they did in 2000 or scare the stupid Americans (a majority really) into voting Rethuglican like they did in 2004.

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Matt, how do you account for

Matt, how do you account for the Fox Effect in the democratic presidency?  There's no media source that can even begin to compete with Fox in terms of propaganda distribution, and the other networks aren't showing any signs of abandoning the "Shit Sells" approach to politics.

 

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EXC
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MattShizzle wrote: Anyone

MattShizzle wrote:

 Anyone some of the more extreme bullshit (such as the torture) even McCain wants to stop.

Yes, torture should be reserved for the real terrorists like business owners, investors and employers. Water boarding Al-Queda to find out who is planning to detonate nuclear weapons in our cities must never be considered.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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Quote:Yes, torture should be

Quote:
Yes, torture should be reserved for the real terrorists like business owners, investors and employers. Water boarding Al-Queda to find out who is planning to detonate nuclear weapons in our cities must never be considered.

EXC, I'm sick of your shit.  Either find and quote where anyone has said that business owners, investors, and employers are terrorists, or admit that this is just bullshit.   I'm a fucking business owner.  I'm an investor.  I'm an employer.  If you have an argument to make, make it, but we've sent people to trollville for far less than what you're doing right now.  You haven't made a reasoned argument in any thread you've been in for weeks.  You're just spewing hate.

I don't give a damn if you believe in god or not.  You're being a troll.  Cut that shit out. 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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This type of insanity is

This type of insanity is just another illustration of why theism needs to be stopped.  Life is not 24.  Dad should not be keeping his shotguns well-maintained for when the educated elite/UN/Mexicans come for him.  Allowing Guantanamo and the policies that have crept in regarding torture feed into the whole us vs. them, preparing for the apocalypse mentality in a crazy reinforcing loop.  It destroys people's lives beyond just the obvious poor sods who have physically been swept up by a hypocritical government chanting "Freedom!" 

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EXC
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Hambydammit wrote:Quote:Yes,

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
Yes, torture should be reserved for the real terrorists like business owners, investors and employers. Water boarding Al-Queda to find out who is planning to detonate nuclear weapons in our cities must never be considered.

EXC, I'm sick of your shit.  Either find and quote where anyone has said that business owners, investors, and employers are terrorists, or admit that this is just bullshit.   I'm a fucking business owner.  I'm an investor.  I'm an employer.  If you have an argument to make, make it, but we've sent people to trollville for far less than what you're doing right now.  You haven't made a reasoned argument in any thread you've been in for weeks.  You're just spewing hate.

I don't give a damn if you believe in god or not.  You're being a troll.  Cut that shit out. 

MattShizzle wrote:

Those fuckfaces deserve to die painfully. Those AIG executives that used our taxpayer money to go to a resort should have their dicks ground into sausage, be forced to eat them and then have a spear shoved up their ass until it comes out their nose. Most of the rich should be executed and their money redistributed to the poor, religious should be sent to mental hospitals along with fiscal conservatives and anyone who is against abortion anywhere up to birth should have an M-80 detonated inside their ass. I so wish I could be dictator of Earth and make this happen. The torture to death of nearly all CEOs would be shown on TV free to anyone who wanted to watch. And of course the redistribution of wealth so there are no millionaires or anyone who is truly poor.

I'm the troll and hate spewer?

 

 

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anniet wrote: Dad should

anniet wrote:

 Dad should not be keeping his shotguns well-maintained for when the educated elite/UN/Mexicans come for him. 

But he should be keeping well maintained firearms for non-crazy reasons, such as sporting or self defense. I don't personally know of any gun owners who are crazed survivalists, but I do know of many who like target shooting and the castle doctrine. And while the UN is not going to come and get us or get our guns, it has repeatedly declared that no private individual should be allowed to own firearms and that governments are the only legitimate small arms users. So I can understand why many firearm owners do not like the UN.

As for the torture, I think Jefferson said it best when he said that "In matters of Power, let no more be heard of confidence in men, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."

If the government actually followed the Constitution, then we would not be having these kind of Gitmo court problems. Unfortunately neither presidential candidate seems to be that into following the Constitution. Presumably Obama would be better than McCain in this respect though.

 

Quote:

Either find and quote where anyone has said that business owners, investors, and employers are terrorists, or admit that this is just bullshit.

Perhaps he was referencing Matt's comment here: http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15616#comment-201085

MattShizzle wrote:

I SO wish someone would detonate a nuke anywhere between 1/4 KT and 2 KT right outside the NY stock exchange. I might even have a kind word for Al Quaeda if they did that as much as I'm against them normally.

That doesn't mention torture, but it does mention mass-killing capitalists. I think that most of the time EXC says some over the top comment he is referencing something crazy that Matt said and not making things up, sadly.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Matt, would you like to tell

Matt, would you like to tell EXC how many times one of the mods or core members has told you to cut out your troll-like shit?

EXC, here's the thing.  You think you know a lot of things about this website, and you don't know shit.  Matt has been with RRS since the beginning, and he's been a loyal contributor and poster.  He goes off the deep end fairly regularly, and we have come down on him many times for it.  We mostly do it in private because he's got a long history of supporting us, and in his better adjusted moments, he is truly remorseful for losing his shit.  We've publicly reprimanded Matt, too.  We do it on a case by case basis.

In this case, you've done nothing but spew hate directly at us, and completely ignored us when we've told you directly that you are misrepresenting our beliefs.

Actually, Matt, I'd like your input in this because we have come down on you for some of your posts about violence towards the rich, and you've actually had heated debates about capitalism vs socialism.  Do you think we've extended EXC at least as much slack as we've given you?  Have any of the core members or mods ever told you that you're full of shit for your far left wing opinions?  Have we told you to either start contributing relevant content or stop posting?

If matt doesn't care to answer, I'll go ahead and tell you.  Hopefully he'll back me up on this, although I know I'm kind of putting him on the spot.  Matt is one of the most far left posters on the site, and most, if not all, of the mods and core members have told him at one time or another  that his views are over the top and out of touch with reality.  The fact is, we're almost all much closer to the center than him.  When we've reprimanded him for hateful posts, he's apologized and straightened himself out.  Granted, it hasn't always held for as long as we'd like, but he's trying.  That goes a long way with us.

You're not trying.  You're just being a troll.

 

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Actually the talks with me

Actually the talks with me was more about when I went off on certain individuals. I do strongly feel we need to do something along these line, at least to get the employers/executives that treat their employees unfairly. Anyway, I've never gone off on the site as a whole as EXC has been doing lately. I also as far as I remember never even went a DAY where ALL my posts were anti-capitalist - I still participated in the debunking pseudoscience and bashing religion ones.

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scoff
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Why would he do anything about Guantanamo?

He promised to fight against telecom immunity then voted for a FISA reform bill that included immunity. He parrots RW talking points about offshore drilling and "clean" coal technology. When the House rejected the bailout bill the first time and the Senate took it up, he pushed to get that passed, too.

When are you Obama supporters going to wake up to the fact that he is Wall Street's candidate, backed and supported by the media and endorsed by many of the same people who were cheerleading for Bushco.?

What is it going to take before you recognize Obama is bought and paid for? He isn't a liberal or a progressive, he's just another politician who talks out of both sides of his mouth. Put those vaunted critical thinking skills to work. It's not too hard to see he isn't going to change much of anything, and the only issues he will even attempt to address will be those that have been deemed acceptable by the inhabitants of the Village.

Just look at who is coming out to endorse Obama. Not to mention Colin Powell of lying to the U.N. fame, there's also Paul O'Neill, Ken Adelman and Michael Smerconish. (If you don't know who those people are, Google is your friend.) If those endorsements don't tell you that Obama is no friend to the progressive movement, I guess irony really is dead.


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scoff wrote:Just look at who

scoff wrote:

Just look at who is coming out to endorse Obama. Not to mention Colin Powell of lying to the U.N. fame, there's also Paul O'Neill, Ken Adelman and Michael Smerconish. (If you don't know who those people are, Google is your friend.) If those endorsements don't tell you that Obama is no friend to the progressive movement, I guess irony really is dead.

Which vaible candidate is better? McCain/Palin? Riiiiiight.

I don't believe Obama is going to cure all the ills of the US. As you point out, there's too much corporate influence, which is true of government in general. But, I want to defend Colin Powell, whom Republicans are suddenly bashing. Powell did lie to the UN; but he did so by the orders of his Command-in-Chief. At the time, he was assured the intelligence he was presenting was genuine.

I lost a lot of respect for Powell, as I and many like me had been pointing out that the evidence was specious at best, and outright fabricated in several instances. But Powell's presentation to the UN hardly turned him into a blathering idiot with no scrupples.

 

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EXC wrote:MattShizzle

EXC wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:

 Anyone some of the more extreme bullshit (such as the torture) even McCain wants to stop.

Yes, torture should be reserved for the real terrorists like business owners, investors and employers. Water boarding Al-Queda to find out who is planning to detonate nuclear weapons in our cities must never be considered.

The corporate bigwigs probably know more about who's going to blow up what, where and when than the alleged "al-Qaeda" America has been practicing "enhanced interrogation techniques" on.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Quote:Actually the talks

Quote:
Actually the talks with me was more about when I went off on certain individuals. I do strongly feel we need to do something along these line, at least to get the employers/executives that treat their employees unfairly. Anyway, I've never gone off on the site as a whole as EXC has been doing lately. I also as far as I remember never even went a DAY where ALL my posts were anti-capitalist - I still participated in the debunking pseudoscience and bashing religion ones.

Thanks, Matt.  Really, I just wanted you to verify for EXC that when we've felt you went over the top, we've told you to cut it out.  It wasn't so much the subject matter, but the fact that we haven't just let you go ballistic anytime you feel like it.

 

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scoff
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What ever happened to voting on principle?

There's a Green Party candidate who does represent the interests of progressives.

Obama needs to be shown that race-baiting and sexism don't have a place in the Democratic Party. Rewarding him for the dirty campaign he waged in the primaries is just plain wrong. If Obama wins narrowly, it should be clear to him that he can't use the kind of tactics he used and expect to get the support of true progressives. If he loses he can chalk it up to those of us who won't be swayed by his underhanded tricks and his vacillation on progressive principles.

One way or the other, he needs to understand that what he did to win the nomination is the kind of BS we've come to expect from Republican candidates.

And don't try playing the fear card about SCOTUS or Roe v. Wade or what Republicans might do. If a Democratic Congress (one that looks like it will increase its majority in 2008) can't prevent that from happening, what good are any of them?

As for Colin Powell, he's been lying for his masters since long before his appearance in front of the U.N. Security Council. Read up on his involvemment in the cover up of My Lai. Or his part in Iran Contra. He knew he was presenting false evidence to the U.N. Claiming he was "under orders" is the same thing Nazi underlings did at Nuremburg. It's not an acceptable defense.


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Supreme Court nominees are

Supreme Court nominees are almost never not confirmed. The ONLY 2 people who could possibly become president are Obama or McCain. Which one is closest to progressives by far? If you had the choice between getting smacked in the face with someone's hand or with a sledgehammer and if you didn't pick one of the 2 someone else would pick what would you do?

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Here is what burns me.We,

Here is what burns me.

We, and I think rightfully, at least so far in human history, may not have come up with a perfect Constitution, but the most reason based and neutral ever written.

Now while technically of course, our laws do not apply to non Americans, the hypocrits who want to detain people without council or trial, promote the expansion of our form of Constitution as if every other country should have a system like ours?

Ok, which is it? If it is good enough for us, why wouldn't we extended it to others to SHOW the world.

If we here in America think that trials and jurys and defense and evidence are key to maintaing freedom, and to be free from presumption of guilt, then why would we do the oposite to others?

It is not so much that we "technically" are obligated to, but it makes us look like hypocrites if we dont.

Presumption of guilt is what a fascist state like North Korea and Iran do. I think if we want to lead, then we need to use what we provide ourselves with and provide it to others as well.

Presumption of innocences and benifit of council is our Constitutional mandate. If we are going to say it is good enough for us, and not only is it good enough, it is the best position to hold to maintain everyone's freedom in the long run. If it is good enough for us, then we would be hypocrites to not provide it to others.

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 I'm not Barack Obama, but

 

I'm not Barack Obama, but I approve this message


scoff
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That's not quite true.

Any one of the candidates running could be elected. All it takes is a plurality of votes. The only thing preventing a third-party candidate from being elected is that not enough people vote based on their principles. The fact that Obama has a (D) beside his name just isn't enough any more, especially not with the Rovian campaign he has run thus far. For more than 30 years I've thought that (D) meant something, actually stood for something. Since Obama, not so much.

So, basically you're telling me that McCain wants to hit me with a sledgehammer (despite the fact that he will be opposed by an increasingly Democratic dominated Congress) and Obama just wants to slap me in the face. I'd say that's not much of a choice if you asked me. Which is why I say neither of them deserve my support.

Nor have either of you answered the question of why I should support Obama. If all you've got is "he's better than McCain" I've heard it before. Please, tell me why I should support a candidate who doesn't represent me, who has shrugged off the issues that matter to me, who has divided the Democratic Party with his campaign tactics, who leveraged race-baiting and sexism to win the nomination and who, worst of all, repeatedly says one thing then does another.


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That's bullshit he used race

That's bullshit he used race baiting and sexism and he does keep his word. Maybe make it like this: You have 2 choices - get hit in the face with a sledgehammer or have nothing happen. Would you still insist on being given a million dollars until they get fed up and use the sledgehammer? There is no fucking way a 3rd party candidate can win. Obama is way further to the left than McInsane. They are the only 2 candidates that have any realistic chance of winning. Were you one of those kids that when your parents told you you could either eat your vegetables or go to bed with no supper refused to pick and insisted on getting ice cream for supper?

 

I would prefer someone that made Ralph Nader look like Rush Limbaugh - read some of my posts around here for fucks sake - I want the majority of CEOs executed and their money distributed to the poor, but I know that isn't going to happen in an extreme right wing asshat country like the US. Ralph Nader doesn't even have a chance. Wouldn't you rather have someone that will at least be moderate than another extreme conservative?

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 Hambydammit wrote:This

 

Hambydammit wrote:
This shit's got to stop.

Agreed.

MattShizzle wrote:
I want the majority of CEOs executed and their money distributed to the poor, but I know that isn't going to happen in an extreme right wing asshat country like the US.

Oh, this kind of stuff.

Ugg, you can't just execute people for being rich. 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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scoff wrote:Any one of the

scoff wrote:

Any one of the candidates running could be elected. All it takes is a plurality of votes. The only thing preventing a third-party candidate from being elected is that not enough people vote based on their principles. The fact that Obama has a (D) beside his name just isn't enough any more, especially not with the Rovian campaign he has run thus far. For more than 30 years I've thought that (D) meant something, actually stood for something. Since Obama, not so much.

Why with Obama? Why not President Clinton? His campaign wasn't any cleaner than Obama's. The (D) hasn't stood for anything in a while. Democrats and Republicans aren't as different as we like to believe.

As for a viable third party: not without a *lot* of money. First, we need to establish the Green Party (or any other party) as a viable alternative. The only way to do that is by working from the ground up -- start campaigning for and electing viable Green candidates in your city, county (or borough or whatever), and state. After that, we can start working on Congress and the Supreme Court. Then, we can worry about the Presidency.

Meanwhile, although the difference isn't great in the parties, there is a difference in the candidates. We have two viable options, McCain and Obama. Choose wisely.

I voted for Nader in 2000, even though I liked Gore. I'm certainly for a third party, especially a truly progressive third party.

Quote:

So, basically you're telling me that McCain wants to hit me with a sledgehammer (despite the fact that he will be opposed by an increasingly Democratic dominated Congress) and Obama just wants to slap me in the face. I'd say that's not much of a choice if you asked me. Which is why I say neither of them deserve my support.

Nor have either of you answered the question of why I should support Obama. If all you've got is "he's better than McCain" I've heard it before. Please, tell me why I should support a candidate who doesn't represent me, who has shrugged off the issues that matter to me, who has divided the Democratic Party with his campaign tactics, who leveraged race-baiting and sexism to win the nomination and who, worst of all, repeatedly says one thing then does another.

I must've missed the offensive campaign tactics. From what I've seen (granted, I don't watch TV), he's run a fairly clean campaign. Maybe I'm just cynical because of Rove, but I didn't find Obama very offensive at all. As for sexism and race-baiting, both sex and race were part of the campaign because our culture wasn't going to not make it part of the campaign. It was inevitable. I never noticed Obama step outside of any bounds.

But again, I don't watch TV, so I haven't seen many TV ads.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers