Christianity and Orwell

Hambydammit
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Christianity and Orwell

I know there aren't many traditional Christians posting on these boards, but I'm wondering about how Christians think of 1984.   There was a particularly Orwellian statement made in another thread, and it got me thinking.  Do Christians even see the parallels between their religion and this book?

Has anybody noticed that it's "common knowledge" that America was founded as a Christian Nation?  It's hard to imagine a more effective and blatant propoganda campaign than the complete revision of history that's been perpetrated by the far right.

Do Christians recognize the doublespeak when they talk about free will?  Do they recognize that defining good in terms of God and defining good in terms of the state is only a difference in words, not content?

Now for the really pointed question.  For the few Christians who do get it -- who do see the parallels -- do they think it's ok because it's their god, and do they really approve of totalitarianism so long as it's for Jesus?

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Room 101 for you, traitor.

Room 101 for you, traitor.


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Very similar sentiments to

Very similar sentiments to my contention that central message of the 'Garden of Eden' story is that you must give absolute, unquestioned obedience to the Boss, under threat of extreme punishment, thus justifying every Dictator since.

This apart from the idea that it is justified to punish the descendents of people who offended you, this justifying all the eternal ongoing ethnic conflicts we have seen.

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Quote:Very similar

Quote:
Very similar sentiments to my contention that central message of the 'Garden of Eden' story is that you must give absolute, unquestioned obedience to the Boss, under threat of extreme punishment, thus justifying every Dictator since.

Exactly.

The reason I was wondering about this is that I read 1984 in high school like everybody else, but I was also a Christian.  I never even thought about any of the connections mentioned so far.  I mean... it was just not there.  It wasn't that I thought about it and rationalized it away.  I just didn't think about it.

The thing is, I was a teenager.  Granted, I was a very smart kid, but I'm perfectly willing to admit naivety or inexperience, or whatever else, if I was just too dense to see the connection.  What I'm afraid of, though, is that it was more 1984 at work.  That is, I was programmed so well that I never even considered the connection because, well.. there just couldn't have been one because Christianity is right.  And we were never at war with Eurasia.

Do you think a significant number of Christians could read 1984 and simply never even see themselves?  Or do you think it's not quite as Orwellian as all that, and they're just rationalizing it away or dismissing it?

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit wrote:That is, I

Hambydammit wrote:

That is, I was programmed so well that I never even considered the connection because, well.. there just couldn't have been one because Christianity is right. . .

 . . . Do you think a significant number of Christians could read 1984 and simply never even see themselves?  Or do you think it's not quite as Orwellian as all that, and they're just rationalizing it away or dismissing it?

I was a devout christian as a teen when I read 1984.  I never saw the connection either.  That programming is very strong.

Hearing Dawkins refer to god as a dictator was the 1st time I ever had a perspective shift that would allow me to see such a connection.  The connotations that accompany the title Dictator just don't jive with how a devout christian views god.  To christians god is a benevolent, loving father, not dictator.  I can't see many practising christians being able to make the perspective shift needed to see god as a dictator and christianity as a dictatorship.  I imagine there might be a few since rationalization can be taken to some amazing extremes, but I think most christians reading 1984 simply never see the parallel.

 

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Quote:To christians god is a

Quote:
To christians god is a benevolent, loving father, not dictator.

Like... um... Big Brother...

Geez.  This is just rattling around my brain particularly noisily right now.  I think it also might have something to do with the blatant propoganda I'm seeing in the McCain/Palin campaign.  They aren't even trying to justify their claims.  They're just making shit up.  And everybody seems to believe them.  I feel like Winston (It was Winston, right?  It's been many years since I read it.) after his awakening.

Quote:
I imagine there might be a few since rationalization can be taken to some amazing extremes, but I think most christians reading 1984 simply never see the parallel.

In other words, Christianity really is an Orwellian state.  Wow.

And to think it could become the government...  

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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         Theist :

         Theist : Depends on your definition of free will.  In Christian theology, humans are free to do what is natural to them, which is sin, but even that is constrained to a certain degree.  We believe you are a slave to sin, until God frees you. ~~~

RRS Kevin R Brown: This is ass-backwards Orwellian doublethink. In fact, it's a textbook example of it.

I am a 'slave' to my own freedom (since anything I do of my own volition is 'sinful'), so the only way to become 'free' is to chain myself up at the feet of a totalitarian dogma that claims to know best.

Sound particularly benign to anyone? ~~~

          RRS Hamby: Wow.  That is freakishly Orwellian.  I wonder if dude's ever read 1984. ~~~

           Me:

    .... From around Post 68 at,

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15587?page=1


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Hambydammit wrote: I think

Hambydammit wrote:
I think it also might have something to do with the blatant propoganda I'm seeing in the McCain/Palin campaign.  They aren't even trying to justify their claims.  They're just making shit up.  And everybody seems to believe them.

Never discount the power of truthiness!  It is mind boggling to see people with at least an average IQ so sure Obama is going to have Bin Laden in the Lincoln bedroom and turn our currency into something Zimbabweans would love to have. 

I know I often think the worst of people.  If they would just stop proving me right I swear I would stop it.  Honest.  I work for an investment advisor and watch otherwise intelligent people with decades more life experience than I screw themselves over financially all the time.  Then I go visit Dad and hear former Mennonites who are absolutely the nicest people you could ever meet repeating lines from Limbaugh and friends - never realizing just exactly what they are saying.

Some guy on digg was referring to "fascist liberals" the other day.  It just made me laugh as I see christainity as the perfect vehicle for bringing fascism.  They see secularism as fascist though.  Rationalization at it's finest!

(I don't know how to easily insert a picture, but it is the Palin one I was thinking of here.)

{EDIT: Just use the little picture of a mountain and the sun slightly above and right of the U button on the top panel.  HD}

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Hambydammit wrote:(It was

Hambydammit wrote:

(It was Winston, right?  It's been many years since I read it.) 

Yep, it was Winston Smith! He was naturally more questioning than the average person.

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever." George Orwell, 1984.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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I know there aren't many
I know there aren't many traditional Christians posting on these boards, but I'm wondering about how Christians think of 1984. There was a particularly Orwellian statement made in another thread, and it got me thinking. Do Christians even see the parallels between their religion and this book?

I haven't read 1984 so I can only comment on the parallels that will attempt to be drawn, but on a broader scope I do see a connection between Atheism and totalitarianism. So let's see how well are these parallels thought out.

Has anybody noticed that it's "common knowledge" that America was founded as a Christian Nation? It's hard to imagine a more effective and blatant propoganda campaign than the complete revision of history that's been perpetrated by the far right.

Well right off the bat we have a lot of problems. We could of course argue whether it's common knowledge that the US was founded as a Christian Nation. We could argue whether there is some far right propaganda campaign to say so. All are arguable points. But what I want to point out is the assumed error of propaganda being posted on an atheist propaganda site.

Do Christians recognize the doublespeak when they talk about free will? Do they recognize that defining good in terms of God and defining good in terms of the state is only a difference in words, not content?

So hmmm... so it's wrong to define good in terms of something. But it's ok for the atheist to define good by something. hmmm... yeah..

Now for the really pointed question. For the few Christians who do get it -- who do see the parallels -- do they think it's ok because it's their god, and do they really approve of totalitarianism so long as it's for Jesus?

Well I can't answer this one since I don't see any parallels just some rambling thoughts that can be turned right back on atheism. Better luck next time.


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 WillieBop wrote:but on a

 

WillieBop wrote:

but on a broader scope I do see a connection between Atheism and totalitarianism.

Want to expand on that statement?

WillieBop wrote:
But what I want to point out is the assumed error of propaganda being posted on an atheist propaganda site.

Want to expand on that one too?

WillieBop wrote:
So hmmm... so it's wrong to define good in terms of something. But it's ok for the atheist to define good by something. hmmm... yeah..

Where did we say that?

Here?

Quote:
Do Christians recognize the doublespeak when they talk about free will? Do they recognize that defining good in terms of God and defining good in terms of the state is only a difference in words, not content?

Obviously not. 

How about: it's wrong to define good by whatever an authority tells you is good?

Williebop wrote:
Well I can't answer this one since I don't see any parallels just some rambling thoughts that can be turned right back on atheism. Better luck next time.

You already admitted that you haven't read the book, and yet, your evaluating its content. Better luck next time? You dumbass, you don't even know what we're talking about. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Quote:I haven't read 1984 so

Quote:
I haven't read 1984 so I can only comment on the parallels that will attempt to be drawn, but on a broader scope I do see a connection between Atheism and totalitarianism.

Jesus Fucking Christ, you ignorant twit!  You just said you haven't read the book.  You have no fucking clue what I'm talking about.  The scary thing is that this sentence, in a nutshell, proves EXACTLY what I was saying in the OP.

For those not afflicted with doublethink, do you see what I'm talking about?  This twit sees totalitarianism in atheism!  Despite the fact that it's logically impossible to derive anything from atheism, and despite the fact that a simple course in logic 101 would demonstrate this conclusively, he has accepted the statement that atheism connects to totalitarianism.  It has nothing to do with reality.  It has to do with what he believes because what he believes is right because if it wasn't then it wouldn't be what god said because god said it and it is true because it's true.

Quote:
Well right off the bat we have a lot of problems. We could of course argue whether it's common knowledge that the US was founded as a Christian Nation. We could argue whether there is some far right propaganda campaign to say so. All are arguable points. But what I want to point out is the assumed error of propaganda being posted on an atheist propaganda site.

Anybody else see how this works?  Doublethink in action.  He's not going to consider that it's possible that there is a  propoganda campaign by the far right to revise history.  Despite the fact that the Republicans have had it as a talking point for eight years straight, and that every single candidate has mentioned it in speeches, and it's all over Fox News (oh yeah... I forgot... Fox isn't the voice of the Republican party. They're fair and balanced.) the only possible way to work this out is to believe that there isn't a propaganda campaign.

Quote:
So hmmm... so it's wrong to define good in terms of something. But it's ok for the atheist to define good by something. hmmm... yeah..

Did I say anything about wrong?  I mentioned equivalence.

Quote:
Well I can't answer this one since I don't see any parallels just some rambling thoughts that can be turned right back on atheism. Better luck next time.

You just lost pretty much all chance of getting any respect from me.  You haven't read the fucking book!  How the fuck could you see parallels when you have no fucking idea what I'm talking about.

Why don't you read the damn book and then come back to this thread.  It's an easy read.  One or two days.

God Damn It, it pisses me off when people prattle on about their beliefs in the same sentence as admitting their ignorance.  Dude, if you don't know what you're talking about, why don't you fucking say, "Wow... I've never read that book, so I have no idea how to answer the question.  I'll pick it up and read it, and then be back to comment."

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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anniet wrote: That was

anniet wrote:

 

That was prescient of him weren't it.


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Show me what isn't god ...

Show me what isn't god you idol worshipers. Check out thermodynamics .... Idol worshiping I reject. All is one, as nothing can be separated, as NO Master, No Idol is rational .... nor logically possible.

   Here we are in 2008, as the old book by Orwell , "1984",  described  rather well ....


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There was a good book by

There was a good book by Sinclair Lewis called "It Can't Happen Here. " It was written in the 1930s and very prophetic of the 1980s and later religious right.

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The fact is that so many

The fact is that so many atheists want government to take the place of god in being every one's imaginary provider is what drives to and keeps people in right-wing Christianity. Christians are convinced that the atheist agenda is a one world government that controls all buying and selling to force a social order where everyone becomes wards of the state. To read many of the posters here plays right into the fears of 1984 type atheist-socialist world order.

The prophecies of the anti-Christ and the mark of the beast plays right into their fears of a worldwide socialist/communist revolution, where everyone will have the same wealth and no liberty.

It's too bad today but if you stand for individual liberty and common sense approaches to help the poor and people with problems, you are labeled a right wing loon in the atheist community.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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While attempts by government

While attempts by government to control everything are doomed to fail as the Soviet Union demonstrated, the idealogical opposite of getting rid of regulations, Free Market Fundamentalism, has now been shown to be fatally flawed as well.

The only path with any hope is that of the rational middle ground, where decisions are based on observation of what seems to work, a readiness to introduce rules to damp down the excesses of greed, with some mechanism for objection and repeal or modification of rules which seem to be causing more harm than good.

Rejection of irrational beliefs, whether of the 'wisdom of the market' or of 'the dictatorship of the collective' would seem to be more consistent with Atheism, I would think. Soviet Russia may have been officially Atheist, but it was not free of dogmatic insistence on the correctness of a grand simplistic theory (Marxism).

We now see that the knee-jerk rejection of any government involvement in regulating society as bad, because it smacks of 'socialism', as leading to another set of problems...

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From the time of its release

From the time of its release (1949) up until the fall of the Berlin Wall, 1984 was much more popular with the right wing than it was with the left.  At this time religion was just beginning to be injected into politics with the fervor with which we've become familiar, and anything from Orwell, himself a former devotee of socialist movements, was a hit with Western politicians who saw Stalin for the monster he was.  As a consequence, Animal Farm and 1984 were both promoted for high school age readers in the post-McCarthy era and beyond.  This came at a time when any member of Congress in the United States was a very visible religious believer and the same was true on down the public ladder.  The link between God and totalitarianism was either not perceived or not considered.

Take a look at Cecil B. Demille's introduction to The Ten Commandments and you'll see something very similar.  DeMille walks out on to a stage and talks about the evils of totalitarianism and the need for private citizens to assure that their rights are guaranteed--so that they might with a free conscience follow the will of God as enumerated from Mount Sinai.  The contradiction is not grasped or at least, not hinted at throughout the film. 

This is to be expected.  The history of the state of Israel as told in the Bible gives us the exact same thing.  The Jews are led out of the Pharaoh's servitude so that they might have God's rule (mediated by means of the bloody judgments of Moses).  They expand their holdings in the Promised Land in the time of Joshua and the Judges (again, God holds the real power), but taste defeat when God relents to their demand for a true King.  They're spiteful towards their Babylonian captors but happy serfs of the Persian Emperor Cyrus, who is at least a monotheist (of sorts).  The rule is simple.  Totalitarianism is okay, just so long as it's approved by the Most High.  There were plenty of American Catholics who believed along with Father Coughlin that Hitler's war of conquest in Europe was a just Christian War in the model of Augustine.

 

"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men."
--Bertrand Russell


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There are plenty of fun

There are plenty of fun parallels in Animal Farm, too (which I've always thought to be a much more enjoyable read). Moderates, just FYI, you are Boxer the horse.

Then there's the matter of the rules that were written in stone and hailed as absolute by the leadership... but, somehow, the list of them always seemed to grow shorter. Hm.

 

Regarding the parallels with 1984 I think are the strongest, I've got just three words for Christians:

Ministry of Love (or, alternatively, 'Love is hate')

Christians, you constantly describe your deity as being a loving and glorious entity - yet your most persuasive argument for getting people involved in your faith hinges on him being hateful and deranged!

Read my damn lips: Hell means God hates people. If he didn't want to throw people into eternal hellfire he wouldn't do it because there is absolutely no good, ethical reason at all for an all-powerful intelligent agency to do this!

You're worshipping hatred and spite. You just label it 'love'.

 

I've also got three words for Muslims:

Ministry of Peace (or, allternatively, 'Peace is war')

Muslims, you describe Islam as a peaceful religion - yet your fundamentalists aren't marching around blowing kisses, throwing-up peace signs and handing-out flowers. They're blowing themselves up to kill anyone who isn't a muslim, because anyone who isn't a muslim is an infidel plotting against Islam and is therefore preventing peace for flourishing.

Your message puts you into a state of perpetual war against everyone. Even if the world converted to Islam, there would still be gradients within the faith, so people would be blowing themselves up in in a martyr's fight for 'true' Islamic doctrine. If your religion were actually peaceful, it would not advocate martyrdom and violence against anything outside of it!

You're worshipping war. You just label it 'peace'.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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I have nothing to add to

I have nothing to add to that Kevin.  Well stated.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Ironically that view on

Ironically that view on Islam could lead to more war (War in Iraq anybody?) but you know....


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Pineapple,Realistically

Pineapple,

Realistically speaking, who started the Iraq War? Who threw-in the catalyst for it?

Answer: The fundamentalist muslims who flew the aircraft into the WTC and Pentagon on 9/11.

 

The Bush administration acted on the catalyst to invade Iraq (Iraq itself having done nothing), but there should be no question in the objective and rational observer's mind that the entire chain of events was started by Islamic radicals. A view in strictly in opposition to the Islamic religion had nothing to do with the war itself; Bush had a personal vendetta to settle with Saddam, Cheney had vested financial interest in taking control of Iraqi oil and the Neo-Cons as a body had an ideological interest in using terrorism as a shiny new enemy image (now that communism has started to lose most of it's effect in this area) to show the American people that they need to be protected against (and that they - the Neo-Cons - are the only men suited for this task).

 

Cap'n, just out of curiousity, did you ever happen to read Animal Farm?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Pineapple,

Realistically speaking, who started the Iraq War? Who threw-in the catalyst for it?

Answer: The fundamentalist muslims who flew the aircraft into the WTC and Pentagon on 9/11.

Well.. actually.. depending on what "Iraq War" you're talking about, it had nothing to do with "religious fundamentalism" and completely to do with the protection of economic interests (or humanitarian ones, whichever).

See Iraq War I.

Set off, not by terrorist attacks, but by a relatively secular rulers invasion of a neighboring country for a collection of non-religiously-based reasons.  The international reaction to such an invasion was also, I believe, non-religiously-based.


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I noticed more Orwellian

I noticed more Orwellian thinking by the religious right lately - they seem to be saying it's a violation of THEIR freedom when the courts won't allow them to outlaw gay marriage.

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...Then reason I ask if

...Then reason I ask if you've read it or not, Cap'n, is that lately you've been defending your position as innocuous. If you care to follow a metaphor, it's easy for me to demonstrate that this is wrong.

Boxer the horse was a hard-working individual of high character, but low intelligence. He did not agree with the violence at the farm that the pigs perpetuated or the demonization of Snowball, but regardless, still held that Napoleon was right. By insisting that the farm just needed to hold together and refusing to realize what Napoleon's actions meant about his intentions, Boxer enabled and protected the pigs and effectively held them in power.

 

The fundies are really just using you, and you can't get past the God doublethink to realize it. When the chips are down, you, Eloise and every other moderate that helped to cement their bigotry and intolerance in place will be sold-off like the rest of us in exchange for their great, glorious trip to see their lord.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Quote:Well.. actually..

Quote:

Well.. actually.. depending on what "Iraq War" you're talking about, it had nothing to do with "religious fundamentalism" and completely to do with the protection of economic interests (or humanitarian ones, whichever).

See Iraq War I.

I love when theists effectively prove my point for me.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Pineapple,

Realistically speaking, who started the Iraq War?

Bush

 

Quote:

Who threw-in the catalyst for it?

Answer: The fundamentalist muslims who flew the aircraft into the WTC and Pentagon on 9/11.

 

 

The question now is of course WHY they flew (Hint: U.S military presence in Saudia Arabia..), you said the Muslims target everyone. This is clearly not the case. 

 

and what the fuck did Hussien have to do with it? The only way Bush could link Hussien to Bin Laden is that they're both Muslim.

 

 

 

Quote:

The Bush administration acted on the catalyst to invade Iraq (Iraq itself having done nothing), but there should be no question in the objective and rational observer's mind that the entire chain of events was started by Islamic radicals. A view in strictly in opposition to the Islamic religion had nothing to do with the war itself; Bush had a personal vendetta to settle with Saddam, Cheney had vested financial interest in taking control of Iraqi oil and the Neo-Cons as a body had an ideological interest in using terrorism as a shiny new enemy image (now that communism has started to lose most of it's effect in this area) to show the American people that they need to be protected against (and that they - the Neo-Cons - are the only men suited for this task).

I do recall good 'ol W said we needed to reform arab society to prevent future 9/11s. Do you think Bush could have rallied up the support for Iraq without 9/11? Portraying the Muslim Hussien of aiding the Muslim terrorists?

 

 

Quote:

Cap'n, just out of curiousity, did you ever happen to read Animal Farm?

 

No. Read 1984 it in like grade 10 though, and pretty much forgot what happens.

 

 


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Cool thread RRS, yo Bob,

Cool thread RRS, yo Bob, outlaw greed ...

Geezz caring EXC, you no loon, don't hurt your head, besides anyone with an opinion gets called shit. Me god knows ....


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 Quote:I know there aren't

 

Quote:
I know there aren't many traditional Christians posting on these boards, but I'm wondering about how Christians think of 1984.

Never read it.. I don't read many fiction books, except.. well, I have read like.. 30 fiction books.

 

Quote:
Has anybody noticed that it's "common knowledge" that America was founded as a Christian Nation? 

This statement has been made many times, it appears.  The problem I have with it is that no one cares to define what they mean by "Christian Nation."  Certainly you, Hamby, can think of at least one sense in which this label would be fitting to our nation?

 

Quote:
Do Christians recognize the doublespeak when they talk about free will?  Do they recognize that defining good in terms of God and defining good in terms of the state is only a difference in words, not content?

Not understood.  Perhaps I need to have read the book.

 

Quote:
Now for the really pointed question.  For the few Christians who do get it -- who do see the parallels -- do they think it's ok because it's their god, and do they really approve of totalitarianism so long as it's for Jesus?

Me? No, never.  At the very heart of the Christian message, as I understand it, is the ability to freely will and to live your life in accordance with that free will--i.e., totalitarianism is the antithesis of "christianity."

 

Of course, that statement is predicated upon my understanding of the word totalitarianism and its implications.

 

Quote:
I can't see many practising christians being able to make the perspective shift needed to see god as a dictator and christianity as a dictatorship.

Of course I could see god as a dictator.  The term "god" really has no definition at all... and so, with a couple flips of a twitch I could add or take away characteristics of "god" to make it more inline with the term "dictatorship."  But, to equate my understanding of "god" with "dictator" is as much a stretch of definitional imposition as it would be to equate the word "baby" with "dictator."

 

Quote:
In other words, Christianity really is an Orwellian state.  Wow.

Could be, I suppose.

 

Quote:
Some guy on digg was referring to "fascist liberals" the other day.  It just made me laugh as I see christainity as the perfect vehicle for bringing fascism.  They see secularism as fascist though.  Rationalization at it's finest!

"Liberal" is another one of those things that is hard to pin down definitionally.  The phrase "fascist liberal" is not inherently contradictory--although, I would agree that it is probably used without much thought, or perhaps without much understanding.

 

One possible, non contradictory, definition of "fascist liberal" would be "an individual in overbearing favor of concepts of maximum individual freedom as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties."

 

The important part of this phrase is "as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties."  That part of the definition is a matter of personal opinion, and many people disagree as to what it pertains to.  A libertarian, who I imagine has very different ideas of "civil liberties" than a liberal, would find it very "overbearing" or "fascist" to say that the "government protection of civil liberties" should extend to restrict a persons ability to sell or not sell his property on a discriminatory basis.

 

See the Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act.

 

Then again, the preceding argument is predicated on many assumptions about words "liberal," "fascist," "libertarian," "civil liberties," etc.  Which, I suppose, is part of the problem with regard to attacking something like this.

 

Nevertheless, I would agree that the phrase is in no way productive.. especially without further definition.

 

Quote:
Despite the fact that it's logically impossible to derive anything from atheism, and despite the fact that a simple course in logic 101 would demonstrate this conclusively, he has accepted the statement that atheism connects to totalitarianism. 

Explain further.  I'm not entirely sure it's true, but I've definitely not attempted it.  Are you saying that "atheism," itself, is non-derivable? Or that because "atheism" is a non-belief, and as such is non-derivable (i.e., all non-beliefs are non-derivable)?

 

Quote:
Dude, if you don't know what you're talking about, why don't you fucking say, "Wow... I've never read that book, so I have no idea how to answer the question.  I'll pick it up and read it, and then be back to comment."

Despite the fact that I have never read it, I feel that I can comment on certain issues of this thread because it is apparent what the issue is.  Of course, that doesn't not mean that I can address all issues.

 

Quote:
The idealogical opposite of getting rid of regulations, Free Market Fundamentalism, has now been shown to be fatally flawed as well.

Example?

 

This position just doesn't exist on a mainstream level.. the closest that has come to it has been Ron Paul's ideas with regard to the elimination of the Federal Reserve.  As long as a person is in favor of keeping the Federal Reserve he/she cannot profess to be a "Free Market Fundamentalist."  

 

While "Free Market Fundamentalism" may in fact be flawed, we just haven't had a modern example of it--at least not to my recollection.

 

Feel free to correct me on this one. 

 

What has been shown by countless instance, however, is that deregulation is not per se good.

 

Quote:
We now see that the knee-jerk rejection of any government involvement in regulating society as bad, because it smacks of 'socialism', as leading to another set of problems...

Government = regulation.  What else would it be?

 

The issue, as you somewhat stated, should be, IMHO, finding the balance of regulation and nonregulation that maximizes "goodness."

 

Quote:
Christians, you constantly describe your deity as being a loving and glorious entity - yet your most persuasive argument for getting people involved in your faith hinges on him being hateful and deranged!

Mine doesn't hinge on that.

 

Quote:
Read my damn lips: Hell means God hates people. If he didn't want to throw people into eternal hellfire he wouldn't do it because there is absolutely no good, ethical reason at all for an all-powerful intelligent agency to do this!

You're worshipping hatred and spite. You just label it 'love'.

I'll let those who believe such talk of such beiefs.

Quote:
Muslims, you describe Islam as a peaceful religion - yet your fundamentalists aren't marching around blowing kisses, throwing-up peace signs and handing-out flowers. They're blowing themselves up to kill anyone who isn't a muslim, because anyone who isn't a muslim is an infidel plotting against Islam and is therefore preventing peace for flourishing.

That's a rather broad brush to paint all muslims with.

Quote:
Your message puts you into a state of perpetual war against everyone. Even if the world converted to Islam, there would still be gradients within the faith, so people would be blowing themselves up in in a martyr's fight for 'true' Islamic doctrine. If your religion were actually peaceful, it would not advocate martyrdom and violence against anything outside of it!

You're worshipping war. You just label it 'peace'.

Silliness.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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 Quote:I love when theists

 

Quote:
I love when theists effectively prove my point for me.

It happens sometimes.

 


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Rhad, I have no problem with

Rhad, I have no problem with the observation that America is a nation filled with mostly Christians who have legislated large swaths of their dogma, but I will not even entertain the twaddle that is passed as history.  The original documents that still exist, and can still be viewed by anybody with a mind to do so report clearly and unequivocably that America was founded specifically as a nation devoid of religious connection or affiliation.  That was the fucking point.  Separating church and state.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Books about atheism


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Pineapple wrote:Bush [in

Pineapple wrote:

Bush [in answer to the question, 'Who started the Iraq war?']

Pineapple wrote:

Do you think Bush could have rallied up the support for Iraq without 9/11?

...See what we mean by doublethink?

Pineapple wants to argue that Bush started the war (in order to defend a worldview that sees the current Iraqi occupation as something other than a war started by religious extremists), while fully acknowledging that without the events of 9/11 serving as a catalyst the Bush administration could not have launched the offensive.

Quote:

The question now is of course WHY they flew

...And part of this, of course, is a matter of ignorance. It's obvious as to why they flew the aircraft into the buildings - the hijackers even wrote down why they did it in personal journals. They were killing infidels and securing their ticket to paradise.

Quote:
you said the Muslims target everyone. This is clearly not the case.

You might try reading the parts of the Q'ran that specify that, yes, all infidels deserve to be killed - and that doing so makes one worthy to enter paradise.

Quote:

No. Read 1984 it in like grade 10 though, and pretty much forgot what happens.

I'd like everyone to take a moment to look at the topic of this post. Then the OP. Then go and read what any of the theists to post here so far have wrote about what they've read of Orwell's work.

Repeat as necessary to get an idea of where this discourse is likely to head.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Pineapple wants to argue that Bush started the war (in order to defend a worldview that sees the current Iraqi occupation as something other than a war started by religious extremists), while fully acknowledging that without the events of 9/11 serving as a catalyst the Bush administration could not have launched the offensive.

 

 

My original point was that your view of Islam (reference your initial post..) helped fuel the support for Iraq, and ironically the U.S presence in Iraq would likely increase the likely hood of another terrrorist attack.

Quote:

Quote:

The question now is of course WHY they flew

...And part of this, of course, is a matter of ignorance. It's obvious as to why they flew the aircraft into the buildings - the hijackers even wrote down why they did it in personal journals. They were killing infidels and securing their ticket to paradise.

 

 

What a naive view of suicide terrorism. Notice how that offers no explanition as to why they did it? Why attack America? Why the WTC? Do you have any idea of how terrorist pick their targets?

 

 

 

Quote:

Quote:
you said the Muslims target everyone. This is clearly not the case.

You might try reading the parts of the Q'ran that specify that, yes, all infidels deserve to be killed - and that doing so makes one worthy to enter paradise.

 

You might want to try looking at the facts. The terrorists pick their targets very carefully. Why the attacks in U.K? Do you think that has anything to do with U.K presence in Iraq? Bin Laden even offered a peace treaty with any nation that withdraws their troops from the Arab Pensuila.

 

So it is much more complicated than the "kill t3h infidels"


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Quote:What a naive view of

Quote:
What a naive view of suicide terrorism. Notice how that offers no explanition as to why they did it? Why attack America? Why the WTC? Do you have any idea of how terrorist pick their targets?

Uh. Yes, it does offer an explanation. In fact, it offers the explanation gvien by the terrorists. They did it to become martyrs and kill infidels. I've said this, what,  three times already? I thought you were an academic, Cap'n?

Quote:
You might want to try looking at the facts. The terrorists pick their targets very carefully.

You say something like this, having called me naive?

The majority of terrorist attacks/suicide bombings are concentrated on Israel, actually (...ever hear of this place called, 'The Gaza Strip', by chance?). There were a series of hotel lobby bombings in Saudi Arabia not that long ago, there were whole areas of France set on fire by Muslim demonstrators not that long ago, there was a movie director (Van Gogh) who was ambushed and had his throat cut, there were the Madrid train bombings...

There's also that whole Sunni vs Shiite civil war thingy happening in Iraq as we speak. Oh, and there's the matter of the Iranian president, who happens to feature on a phone-in television show in his country where he encourages young boys to grow-up to be martyrs and kill infidels.

EDIT: We also might bother to look at what building the terrorists decided to hit with the aircraft - which was also the same building they bombed years earlier. The World Trade Center. You don't think this particular landmark was picked for a reason?

 

Yup. Looks like the U.K. and U.S. have really been singled-out by Muslim suicide bombers, and suicide bombing isn't the direct result of religious indoctrination.

Idiot.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Quote:
What a naive view of suicide terrorism. Notice how that offers no explanition as to why they did it? Why attack America? Why the WTC? Do you have any idea of how terrorist pick their targets?

Uh. Yes, it does offer an explanation. In fact, it offers the explanation gvien by the terrorists. They did it to become martyrs and kill infidels. I've said this, what,  three times already? I thought you were an academic, Cap'n?

 

*sigh*

 

Quote:

Quote:
You might want to try looking at the facts. The terrorists pick their targets very carefully.

You say something like this, having called me naive?

The majority of terrorist attacks/suicide bombings are concentrated on Israel, actually (...ever hear of this place called, 'The Gaza Strip', by chance?). There were a series of hotel lobby bombings in Saudi Arabia not that long ago, there were whole areas of France set on fire by Muslim demonstrators not that long ago, there was a movie director (Van Gogh) who was ambushed and had his throat cut, there were the Madrid train bombings...

There's also that whole Sunni vs Shiite civil war thingy happening in Iraq as we speak. Oh, and there's the matter of the Iranian president, who happens to feature on a phone-in television show in his country where he encourages young boys to grow-up to be martyrs and kill infidels.

EDIT: We also might bother to look at what building the terrorists decided to hit with the aircraft - which was also the same building they bombed years earlier. The World Trade Center. You don't think this particular landmark was picked for a reason?

 

 Al Qaeda has never conducted an attack on Israel. Funny that eh? They select targets with troops in the Arab pensula. Tha Madrid bombings were a call for Spainish troops to withdraw from Iraq.

 

All the attacks on Israel were conducted by groups from Lebanon and Palestine, which coincidently I'm sure, are currently being occupied by Israel. Funny that too eh?

Now explain the Bin Laden offering to halt attacks on countries that withdraw from the Arab pensula.

Oh and the WTC is a symbol of U.S capatilism, now why the pentagon? Oh yeah, it represents the military power of the U.S who are putting troops in their home land.

 

 

Quote:

Yup. Looks like the U.K. and U.S. have really been singled-out by Muslim suicide bombers, and suicide bombing isn't the direct result of religious indoctrination.

Idiot.

 

Notice how the U.K attacks came AFTER the U.K Presence in Iraq? Did you know Al Qaeda terrorists are 10 times more ikely to come from nations with Americian military presence?

 

Moron.


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Hambydammit wrote:[B]ut I

Hambydammit wrote:

[B]ut I will not even entertain the twaddle that is passed as history.  The original documents that still exist, and can still be viewed by anybody with a mind to do so report clearly and unequivocably that America was founded specifically as a nation devoid of religious connection or affiliation.  That was the fucking point.  Separating church and state.

So you can ascertain of no historical argument can be made that would account for a nation not devoid of religious connections or affiliations?

Now, I don't care for the establishment of state churches, but if we are talking about the founding of our nation, there was no clear disconnect between church and state. Perhaps on the federal level, but the again, I'm not sure that proves your point.  The states were left to do whatever they want--that is, if I remember correctly.

Now, if we are talking about how it stands today, it's still hard to make the argument that from a constitutional standpoint this is suppose to be a nation devoid of religious connection or affiliation.

That may be how some want it, but there is no constitutionally textual or historical proof to positively conclude that claim. I mean, the fact that the first congress after the passing of the constitution setup a cleric to open with prayer would at least add some credence to the argument that the "separation of church and state" was not understood in the same way that people understand it today.


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What about the Treaty of

What about the Treaty of Tripoli and the fact that the exact words "wall of separation between church and state" are from Thomas Jefferson?

 

And all the anti-Christian quotes by founding fathers:

here

(note these are by famous people in general but some are by founding fathers. ) Ever read "The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine? It was a scathing direct attack on Christianity he wrote while thinking he was going to be guillotined.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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O Lord our Heavenly Father,

 

O Lord our Heavenly Father, high and mighty King of kings, and Lord of lords, who dost from thy throne behold all the dwellers on earth and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the Kingdoms, Empires and Governments; look down in mercy, we beseech Thee, on these our American States, who have fled to Thee from the rod of the oppressor and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring to be henceforth dependent only on Thee. To Thee have they appealed for the righteousness of their cause; to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support, which Thou alone canst give. Take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care; give them wisdom in Council and valor in the field; defeat the malicious designs of our cruel adversaries; convince them of the unrighteousness of their Cause and if they persist in their sanguinary purposes, of own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts, constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved hands in the day of battle!

Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the councils of this honorable assembly; enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation. That the scene of blood may be speedily closed; that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored, and truth and justice, religion and piety, prevail and flourish amongst the people. Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds; shower down on them and the millions they here represent, such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come. All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son and our Savior.

Amen.

Reverend Jacob Duché
Rector of Christ Church of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
September 7, 1774, 9 o’clock a.m.

First Continental Congress

 

Mine was before yours.  I win. j/k.

My point is not to say that it was clear one way or the other.. that all facts point one way or the other.. merely that it's not as clear as many people claim.

[edit] Here is another important question.. one that might also throw some interest into the conversation (although I still feel this is an overall minor point in this thread).  If this idea of "separation between church and state" was so deeply ingrained within the founding fathers mind, did they not restrict individual states from doing the same? Those states were restricted from doing other things by the constitution... 


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Yeah Matt .... one of my old

Yeah Matt .... one of my old bands I named Thomas Jefferson, only because Thomas Paine wasn't as well known. My late dad taught his 5 kids this stuff, me the oldest.


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Quote:Notice how the U.K

Quote:
Notice how the U.K attacks came AFTER the U.K Presence in Iraq? Did you know Al Qaeda terrorists are 10 times more ikely to come from nations with Americian military presence?

Uh-oh. The most grievous error a theist can make:

Attempting to use numbers.

 

So, Cap, I suppose you'll have no problem explaining how you reached this conclusion?

Quote:
Now explain the Bin Laden offering to halt attacks on countries that withdraw from the Arab pensula.

...Explain your bald claim that Bin Laden said something?

Uh. No.

How about, instead, you post the exact quote he used and then cite the source that you got this quote from, so that your argument actually has - y'know - susbstance.

Quote:
Al Qaeda has never conducted an attack on Israel.

...The second most grievous error a theist can make:

Attempting to follow lines of reasoning.

 

Go back and read my posts in this thread, Cap'n. Every last one of them.

Done that? Good. Now: How many times did I mention Al Qaeda?

Answer: 0 times.

 

The 9/11 hijackers were associated with Al Qaeda, but motivated by religious faith. This is rather well-documented (...Not that documentation is ever much of a barrier to theists). They were Islamic extremists.

As to your claims that Osama Bin Laden is militarily and politically motivated, rather than religiously motivated, it really appears that history and international intelligence is rather divorced from them.

Moreover, your assertion regarding the Madrid bombings is outright wrong; they were not conducted by Al Qaeda members and had nothing to do with Spain's forces directly in Iraq. In fact, the Guardian more or less confirms exactly what I stated.

And, hey, look! Al Qaeda took credit for this one and even outright said that it was because of the friggin' cartoons!

So? Finished defending the Islamic extremists, yet? Or shall we smash-up your arguments some more?

Quote:
All the attacks on Israel were conducted by groups from Lebanon and Palestine

Oh, well. If you insist...

Is Iran being occupied by Israel? And what about the funny things Hamas has in it's founding charter?

Actually, the occupied territories Israel currently holds are Syrian, Egyptian and Jordanian; the Lebannon territories were given back in 2000, and the 'Palestinian territories' (The Gaza Strip) are a bit of a misnomer; Palestine is not, and never has been, a state. The conflict that established Israel well over half a century ago gave the Jews in the region more or less exactly the same territory that they now control (and it's notable that even now, after the unilateral Israeli withdrawl from Gaza, Hamas terrorist attacks continue).

Take a look at the various Arab states surrounding Israel. Which ones support the attacks on the Jews, which ones do not? Which ones have more secular policies, which ones have more religious policies? Notice a pattern there, Cap'n?

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Quote:This is rather

Quote:

This is rather well-documented (...Not that documentation is ever much of a barrier to theist

Said the pot to the kettle.

 

 

Quote:

...Explain your bald claim that Bin Laden said something?

Uh. No.

How about, instead, you post the exact quote he used and then cite the source that you got this quote from, so that your argument actually has - y'know - susbstance.

 

k

 

Bin Laden wrote:

 

I announce a truce with European countries that do not attack Muslim countries...[T]he door to a truce is open for  three months....The truce will begin when the last soldier leaves our countries [Afghanistian Iraq]... They say we kill for the sake of killing, but reality shows they lie....[T]he Russians were only killed after attacking Afghanistan in the 1980s and Chechnya, Europeans after invading Irag and Afghanistan[,] and the Americans in New York after supporting the Jews in Palestine and their invasion of the Arab Peninusla. Stop spilling out blood, so we can stop spilling your blood.[April 15,2004]

 

 

As quoted by Robert Pape in Dying to Win: The stragetic logic of suicide terrorism page 57.

 

Emphasis mine. Better source than wikipedia don't you think?

 

 

Which kinda strengthens my point. Who's preventing it from becoming a state Kev?

 

 

Here's something else to chew on:

 

During the 1982-1986 suicide campaign against Israel, (41 attackers total, 38 with data.)

 

27 (71%..) were with groups opposed to Islamic fundamentalism (communist/socialist groups..) and only 8 were with groups asociated with it. (Group Islamic Jihad..)

 

page 205  Dying to Win: The stragetic logic of suicide terrorism


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I'll look more into the

I'll look more into the Spain bombings later


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Kevin R Brown wrote: Uh-oh.

Kevin R Brown wrote:

 

Uh-oh. The most grievous error a theist can make:

Attempting to use numbers.

 

So, Cap, I suppose you'll have no problem explaining how you reached this conclusion?

 

 

Whoops forgot this:

 

page 112  Dying to Win: The stragetic logic of suicide terrorism


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Lots of wrong thinking fuels

Lots of wrong thinking fuels terrorism, and Imperialism is also one. All nations are guilty. Innate greed is an ignorance, a root of "evil" .... Competition vs Cooperation are the yin yang of reality. A buddha message was too find the "middle". The middle has no war, no competition, no love/hate as cooperation rules ... a place of balance, of understanding, to be awake, enlightened .... as all is ONE.


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Quote:Emphasis mine. Better

Quote:
Emphasis mine. Better source than wikipedia don't you think?

LoL!

Yes, Cap'n. One book written for the general public, dealing with subject matter Dr. Pape curiously did not submit for peer review in the academic community, is far better than multiple articles from wikipedia that are well-cited.

Just how well-cited? Well...

  1. ^ Atwan, Abdel bari The Secret History of al Qaeda Berkeley 2006, University of california Press. p.40
  2. ^ "Foreign Terrorist Organizations List". United States Department of State. Retrieved on 2007-08-03. - USSD Foreign Terrorist Organization
  3. ^ "Terrorism Act 2000". Home Office. Retrieved on 2007-08-14. - Terrorism Act 2000
  4. ^ "Council Decision". Council of the European Union. Retrieved on 2007-08-14.
  5. ^ Wright, Looming Tower, (2006), p.185, 270-1, 107-8
  6. ^ Wright, Looming Tower, (2006), p.270
  7. ^ Fu'ad Husayn `Al-Zarqawi ... "The Second Generation of al-Qa’ida, Part Fourteen," Al-Quds al-Arabi, July 13, 2005
  8. ^ al-Hammadi, Khalid, `The Inside Story of al-Qa'ida,` part 4, Al-Quds al-Arabi, March 22, 2005
  9. ^ Evolution of the al-Qaeda brand name
  10. ^ The Moral Logic and Growth of Suicide Terrorism
  11. ^ NATO. "Press Conference with NATO Secretary General, Lord Robertson". Retrieved on 2006-10-23.
  12. ^ NATO Library (2005). "AL QAEDA" (PDF). Retrieved on 2007-06-11.
  13. ^ Commission of the European Communities (2004-10-20). "COMMUNICATION FROM THE COMMISSION TO THE COUNCIL AND THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT" (DOC). Retrieved on 2007-06-11.
  14. ^ United States Department of State. "Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs)". Retrieved on 2006-07-03.
  15. ^ Australian Government. "Listing of Terrorist Organisations". Retrieved on 2006-07-03.
  16. ^ The Hindu : Centre bans Al-Qaeda
  17. ^ Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada. "Entities list". Retrieved on 2006-07-03.
  18. ^ Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs (March 21, 2006). "21, 2006.htm Summary of indictments against Al-Qaeda terrorists in Samaria". Retrieved on 2007-06-10.
  19. ^ Diplomatic Bluebook (2002). "B. TERRORIST ATTACKS IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE FIGHT AGAINST TERRORISM" (PDF). Retrieved on 2007-06-11.
  20. ^ Korean Foreign Ministry (August 14, 2007). "Seoul confirms release of two Korean hostages in Afghanistan". Retrieved on 2007-09-16. 
  21. ^ General Intelligence and Security Service. "Annual Report 2004" (PDF). Retrieved on 2007-06-11.
  22. ^ United Kingdom Home Office. "Proscribed terrorist groups". Retrieved on 2006-07-03.
  23. ^ "Russia Outlaws 17 Terror Groups; Hamas, Hezbollah Not Included". 
  24. ^ Ministry for Foreign Affairs Sweden (March–June 2006). "Radical Islamist Movements in the Middle East" (PDF). Retrieved on 2007-06-11.
  25. ^ "Report on counter-terrorism submitted by Switzerland to the Security Council Committee established pursuant to resolution 1373 (2001)" (PDF) (December 20, 2001). Retrieved on 2007-06-11.
  26. ^ Listen to the US pronunciation (RealPlayer).
  27. ^ Arabic Computer Dictionary: English-Arabic, Arabic-English By Ernest Kay, Multi-lingual International Publishers, 1986
  28. ^ "Transcript of Bin Laden's October interview". CNN (2002-02-05). Retrieved on 2006-10-22.
  29. ^ Mahan Abedin (February 5, 2004). "The Essence of Al Qaeda: An Interview With Saad Al-Faqih", Jamestown Foundation. Retrieved on 2008-03-15. "The Bait al-Ansar or “Dwelling of the Partisans” was a guesthouse established by Bin Laden in the 1980’s in Peshawar for Arab volunteers wanting to travel to Afghanistan." 
  30. ^ "The struggle against terrorism cannot be won by military means", The Guardian. Retrieved on 2008-06-14. 
  31. ^ "Executive Order 13099 of August 20, 1998 Prohibiting transactions with terrorists who threaten to disrupt the Middle East peace process (.pdf)" Retrieved February 15, 2007.
  32. ^ Andrew Marshall, "Terror 'blowback' burns CIA ..." (copy), Independent on Sunday, Nov. 1, 1998; 9/11 Commission Report, chapter 2, pp.58-9, 62; ibid, chapter 4, pp.109, 118 (HTML version); ibid, chapter 11, pp.341-2 (HTML version); Steve Coll, Ghost Wars, pp.155, 336, 367, 474; Jack Cloonan interview, PBS, July 13, 2005; Michael Scheuer interview, PBS, July 21, 2005; Jane Mayer, "Junior: The clandestine life of America's top Al Qaeda source", The New Yorker, Sept. 4, 2006 (issue of Sept. 11, 2006); "Inside Able Danger", Global Security News, Aug. 2005.
  33. ^ United States District Court, Southern District of New York (February 6, 2001). "Testimony of Jamal Ahmad Al-Fadl". United States v. Usama bin Laden et al., defendants. James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies. Retrieved on 2008-09-03.
  34. ^ "Excerpt: The Osama bin Laden I know by Peter Bergen". New York: Free Press (2006). Retrieved on 2007-06-12.[dead link]
  35. ^ United States v. Enaam M. Arnaout
  36. ^ Wright, Looming Tower (2006), p.133-4
  37. ^ 1998 Fatwa
  38. ^ Wright, Looming Tower, (2006), p.260
  39. ^ a b The Rebellion Within, An Al Qaeda mastermind questions terrorism. by Lawrence Wright. newyorker.com, June 2, 2008
  40. ^ "After Mombassa", Al-Ahram Weekly Online, January 2-8 2003 (Issue No. 619). Retrieved September 3, 2006.
  41. ^ "How the CIA created Osama bin Laden", Green Left Weekly (2001-09-19). Retrieved on 2007-01-09. 
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  44. ^ Wright, Looming Tower, (2006)
  45. ^ Cloonan Frontline interview, PBS, July 13, 2005.
  46. ^ Demokratizatsiya, Spring 2003, re-published at Find Articles, http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3996/is_200304/ai_n9199132
  47. ^ Demokratizatsiya, Spring 2003, re-published at Find Articles, http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3996/is_200304/ai_n9199132/pg_6; "Unholy Wars: Afghanistan, America and International Terrorism," by ABC News correspondent John K. Cooley
  48. ^ Wright, Looming Tower, (2006), p.103
  49. ^ Wright, Looming Tower (2006), p.137
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  51. ^ "The Osama bin Laden I know" (2006-01-18). Retrieved on 2007-01-09.
  52. ^ Wright, Lawrence (2006). Looming Tower, 181. ISBN 1400030846. 
  53. ^ MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base
  54. ^ "Osama bin Laden: The Past". Retrieved on 2007-01-12.
  55. ^ Douglas Jehl, "Holy War lured Saudis as Rulers Looked Away", New York Times December 27, 2001 [1]
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  57. ^ "Context of 'Shortly After April 1994'". Cooperative Research History Commons. Retrieved on 2007-01-12.
  58. ^ Wright, Looming Towers (2006), p.195
  59. ^ Wright, 2006, p.186
  60. ^ Islam's Medieval Outposts
  61. ^ Ahmed Rashid (2002), Taliban: Islam, Oil and the New Great Game in Central Asia, I.B.Tauris, ISBN 1860648304 
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  63. ^ "Text of Fatwah Urging Jihad Against Americans". Retrieved on 2006-05-15.
  64. ^ Benjamin, Daniel; Steven Simon (2002). "The Warrior Prince", The Age of Sacred Terror. Random House, p. 117. "By issuing fatwas, bin Laden and his followers are ah ing out a kind of self-appointment as alim: they are asserting their rights as interpreters of Islamic law" 
  65. ^ Nyquist, J.R. (August 13, 2005). "Is Al Qaeda a Kremlin Proxy?". jrnyquist.com. Retrieved on 2008-04-17.
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  69. ^ Jihad's New Leaders by Daveed Gartenstein-Ross and Kyle Dabruzzi, Middle East Quarterly, Summer 2007
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  72. ^ "WMD Terrorism and Usama bin Laden" by The Center for Nonproliferation Studies
  73. ^ Relevant excerpt from the series, The Power of Nightmares
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  75. ^ "A Traitor's Tale By Johanna McGeary". Time (2001-02-19). Retrieved on 2007-06-12.
  76. ^ The Power of Nightmares. BBC documentary by Adam Curtis.
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  78. ^ Qutb, Milestones, (2003) p.63 p.69
  79. ^ Wright, Looming Towers, (2006), p.79
  80. ^ How Did Sayyid Qutb Influence Osama bin Laden?
  81. ^ Lawrence Wright, who interviewed Azzam. Wright, Looming Tower, 2006, p.36
  82. ^ Sayyid Qutb's Milestones (footnote 24)
  83. ^ Qutbism: An Ideology of Islamic-Fascism DALE C. EIKMEIER From Parameters, Spring 2007, pp. 85-98.
  84. ^ a b Wright, Looming Tower, (2006), p.174
  85. ^ testimony of Jamal al-Fadl, U.S. v. Usama bin Laden, et.al.
  86. ^ a b Wright, Looming Tower, (2006), p.178
  87. ^ a b Reeve, Simon. The new jackals: Ramzi Yousef, Osama Bin Laden and the future of terrorism, Boston: Northeastern University Press, c1999
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  92. ^ J. Esposito 'Unholy War: Terror in the Name of Islam' 2002. New York, Oxford University Press. p22
  93. ^ Hamid Miir 'Osama claims he has nukes: If U.S. uses N-arms it will get the same response' "Dawn: the Internet Edition" November 10, 2001
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  101. ^ Timothy Thomas, "Al Qaeda and the Internet: The Danger of Cyberplanning" Retrieved February 14, 2007.
  102. ^ Coll, Steve and Susan B. Glasser (2005-08-07). "Terrorists Turn to the Web as Base of Operations", The Washington Post. 
  103. ^ Scheuer, Michael (January 2008). "Bin Laden Identifies Saudi Arabia as the Enemy of Mujahideen Unity". Terrorism Focus. Jamestown Foundation.
  104. ^ Whitlock, Craig (2005-08-08). "Briton Used Internet As His Bully Pulpit" (http). WashingtonPost.com. Retrieved on May 29, 2006.
  105. ^ "Babar Ahmad Indicted on Terrorism Charges". United States Attorney's Office District of Connecticut (2004-10-06). Retrieved on May 29, 2006.
  106. ^ Cook, Robin. "The struggle against terrorism cannot be won by military means". Guardian Unlimited. Retrieved on 2005-07-08.
  107. ^ Steve Coll, Ghost Wars (Penguin, 2005 edn), pp.145-6, 155-6.
  108. ^ Bergen, Peter. "Bergen: Bin Laden, CIA links hogwash". CNN. Retrieved on 2006-08-15.
  109. ^ Bergen, Holy War, Inc (Weidenfield & Nicholson, 2001), pp.72-3.
  110. ^ [http://www.tnr.com/toc/story.html?id=702bf6d5-a37a-4e3e-a491-fd72bf6a9da1 The Unraveling by Peter Bergen and Paul Cruickshank. The jihadist revolt against bin Laden]
  111. ^ Libya releases scores of prisoners APRIL 09, 2008
  112. ^ a b The Unraveling by Peter Bergen and Paul Cruickshank. The jihadist revolt against bin Laden
  113. ^ strata-sphere.com al-Qaeda Losing Support On Muslim Street, Terrorist Attacks Down 40% Since 2001
  114. ^ December 18, 2007 Poll: Most Saudis oppose al Qaeda

 

  1. ^ frontline: the man who knew: timeline - al qaeda's global context | PBS
  2. ^ [1] Madrid Bluff?. Letter doesn't look like al Qaeda. National Review
  3. ^ [2] Madrid Massacre Probe Widens: ...The London-based Arabic newspaper Al-Quds al-Arabi said Thursday evening it had received a claim of responsibility in the name of al Qaeda...[]...The group making the claim, Abu Hafs al Masri Brigades, is affiliated with al-Qaeda and has carried out bombings before. But U.S. officials caution the group is "notoriously unreliable" and does not necessarily speak for Osama bin Laden's organization. For example, Abu Hafs took credit for last summer's Northeast blackout.
  4. ^ A senior official in Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's office said the government was studying the reported claim but still thought ETA was more likely behind the attacks...[]..."When ETA attacks, the Basque heart breaks into a thousand pieces", Basque regional president Juan Jose Ibarretxe said...[]...The Interior Ministry said tests showed the explosives used in the attacks were a kind of dynamite normally used by ETA...[]...The bombers used titadine, a kind of compressed dynamite also found in a bomb-laden van intercepted last month as it headed for Madrid, a source at Aznar's office said, speaking on condition of anonymity. Officials blamed ETA then, too.
  5. ^ The Independent article:While the bombers may have been inspired by Bin Laden, a two-year investigation into the attacks has found no evidence that al-Qa'ida helped plan, finance or carry out the bombings, or even knew about them in advance
  6. ^ [3] "the length of time between the Madrid bombings and Abu Nayaf al-Afghani’s claim has cast doubt on its authenticity..[]...Other sources attribute the March 11 attacks to the group Abu Dujana Al-Afghani Ansar Al-Qaeda Europe, which appears be an alias for Abu Nayaf al-Afghani. A separate al-Qaeda linked organization, the Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigade, also declared responsibility for the Madrid attacks, and although it faces similar questions about the validity of its claims, it is generally regarded by authorities as having carried out the attacks"
  7. ^ MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Database (see MIPT)
  8. ^ The Times Bomb squad link in Spanish blast
  9. ^ The worst Islamist attack in European history | World news | guardian.co.uk
  10. ^ Leak reveals official story of London bombings | UK news | The Observer
  11. ^ http://www.nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/FeaturedDocs/nefadenmarkpakistan0608.pdf

 

Huh. Over a hundred and twenty so far, and that's just dealing with Al Qaeda. I even directly linked you to The Guardian article...

 

  1. ^ His name can also be transliterated into English as Mahmud or Mahmood; Ahmadinezhad, Ahmadi-Nejad, Ahmadi Nejad, or Ahmady Nejad.
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  4. ^ conservative tehran mayor wins upset victory
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  33. ^ "Ahamd Bozorgian (MP): 'The Separation of men and women's elevators is an advantageous policy. It would help to grow.'" Entekhab News. Accessed 31-08-2006.
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  54. ^ AFP: Ahmadinejad slammed by outgoing economy minister
  55. ^ AFP: Martyrdom would solve Iran's economic woes: Ahmadinejad
  56. ^ الف - واردات غیرقانونی بنزین را به دستور رئیس‏جمهور انجام داده‏ایم
  57. ^ :: پايگاه اطلاع رساني نوروز :: www.norooznews.ir :: تخلف دو ميليارد دلاري احمدي‌نژاد در وارادات غيرقانوني بنزين ::
  58. ^ "Ahmadinejad urges Iranian baby boom to challenge West" The Guardian Accessed 03-05-2007.
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  66. ^ Fathi, Nazila. "Students disrupt speech by Iran chief" New York Times. Accessed 12-12-2006.
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  100. ^ Iran President Ahmadinejad In Rows With 3 Leading Officials - AFP
  101. ^ Ahmadinejad Attacks Haddad Adel (Iran Press Service)
  102. ^ Press TV - Haddad-Adel: Constitution not violated
  103. ^ الف - پاسخ رئیس‏مجلس به رئیس‏جمهور
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  108. ^ "Iran's Ahmadinajad says Israel should be moved to Europe." Accessed 29-09-2007.
  109. ^ Ibid.
  110. ^ Armitage, Richard. "U.S. Policy and Iran. Testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee." U.S. Department of State. Accessed 01-12-2006.
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  115. ^ "President says his letter to President Bush was invitation to Islam." Islamic Republic News Agency. Accessed 29-10-2006.
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  1. ^ a b "Hamas sweeps to election victory" BBC News
  2. ^ a b Best known for suicide bombings/attacks:
    • "Among the various organizations that emerged during the intifada were two that continue to challenge the dominance of the PLO over the Palestinian national movement: the Islamic Resistance Movement (better known by its acronym, Hamas) and its counterpart, Islamic Jihad. These organizations are best known for having injected a new lethality into the struggle between Israelis and Palestinians - the tactic of suicide bombings." (James L. Gelvin, The Israel-Palestine Conflict: One Hundred Years of War, Cambridge University Press, 2005, p. 221 ISBN 0521852897)
    • "Best known for the violence it launched against Israel through suicide bombings and rocket attacks... " (Murphy, John. "Hamas aims for political might", The Baltimore Sun, January 22, 2006)
    • "Hamas is best known abroad for the scores of suicide bombings it has carried out and its commitment to the destruction of Israel." (Barzak, Ibrahim. "Israel blames Iran, Syria for bombings", ABC News, January 20, 2006, p. 2)
    • "...the militant organization, best known abroad for its attacks against Israeli civilians..." (Musharbash, Yassin. "Could Victory be Undoing of Hamas"[dead link], Der Spiegel, January 27, 2006)
    • "Although Hamas is best known for its suicide attacks..." ("Palestinian Political Organizations", PBS FRONTLINE, April 4, 2002)
    • "...it was best known in Israel and abroad for the suicide attacks it used..." ("After the Hamas earthquake", The Guardian, January 27, 2006).
    • "Hamas, an organisation best known for its suicide bombings but which also runs social services..." (Lynfield, Ben. "Shock result prompts calls to end policy of violence", The Scotsman, January 27, 2006.
    • "But the group is best known for its suicide bombing attacks." (Levitt, Matthew. Hamas: Politics, Charity, and Terrorism in the Service of Jihad, Yale University Press, 2006, ISBN 0300122586, p. 17.)
    • "Best known for its suicide attacks, Hamas has won over the Palestinian public in its first run for the legislature by focusing on domestic concerns, halting government corruption and restoring law and order to the chaotic West Bank and Gaza Strip." (""Israeli leaders brace for Hamas dominating Palestinian elections", Associated Press, January 22, 2006.)
    • "The armed faction, best known for sending suicide bombers to attack Israelis..." Verma, Sonia. ("Hamas win puts Mideast on edge", Newsday, January 27, 2006.
    • "Hamas... was formed in 1987... The group, best known for its suicide bombings inside Israel, has both political and terrorist agendas." Brookes, Peter. A devil's triangle: terrorism, weapons of mass destruction, and rogue states, Rowman & Littlefield, 2005, p. 83. ISBN 0742549534
    Infamous for suicide attacks:
    • "But his organization, Hamas, is of course dedicated to the destruction of an entire country and infamous for its suicide attacks." (Mann, Jonathan. "Reaction to Killing of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin", CNN, March 22, 2004.
    • "This dismal place was (and remains) a breeding ground for Hamas, the fundamentalist group now infamous for their suicide bombings." (Andersen, Mark. All the Power: Revolution Without Illusion, Punk Planet Books, 2004, ISBN 1888451726, p. 178)
    • "And Hamas, infamous for suicide bombings and other attacks that killed more than 250 Israelis in recent years, rejected Abbas' appeal for peace with Israel, and threatened to continue its campaign of violence." (Tiebel, Amy. "Analysis: Tough Mideast Bargaining Ahead", Associated Press, November 27, 2007.)
    Best known and infamous for suicide attacks:
  3. ^ a b Hamas - Council on Foreign Relations
  4. ^ "Palestinian election raises varying opinions within U". The Minnesota Daily. January 31, 2006
  5. ^ Calls for the destruction of Israel:
  6. ^ a b "'We shall never recognize... a Zionist state on our soil'", The Guardian (January 31, 2006). 
  7. ^ Hamas offers truce, Al-Ahram Weekly, 21 - 27 October 1999, Issue No. 452
  8. ^ "Anti-semetic Hate Speech in the Name of Islam", Spiegel Online International (May 16, 2008). 
  9. ^ Antisemitic:
    • "As noted, the Hamas view of the Jewish people is not drawn solely from the pages of the Qur'an and hadith. Its myopia is also the product of Western anti-Semitic influences. While Hamas, like other modern-day Islamists, has developed its argument on the Jewish question by relying on Qur'anic and other Islamic sources, it also, as Nettler notes, makes it 'modern by appropriate commentary, and supplemented by felicitous borrowing from such classical Western anti-Semitic sources as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Such opinions are influenced by the most bizarre form of Gentile paranoid conspiracy theory." Beverley Milton-Edwards, Islamic Politics in Palestine, I.B. Tauris, 1996, ISBN 1860644759, p. 188
    • "Though most Muslims reject Islamism and its propaganda, anti-Semitic messages from satellite channels like the Hamas-run Al-Aqsa are helping to bring a message of hate and intolerance to Europe. The effects of such hate preaching can already be felt in Germany." Matthias Küntzel. "'WIPE OUT THE JEWS': Anti-Semitic Hate Speech in the Name of Islam", Der Spiegel, May 16, 2008.
    • Anti-Semitism at Core of Hamas Charter, Anti-Defamation League, February 27, 2006. Accessed April 17, 2007.
    • "Hamas, which is deeply engaged in teaching anti-Semitic, and anti-Christian hate in schools," Puder, Joseph. Levitt Can't Strike Hopeful Note About Hamas, The Bulletin, March 27, 2007.
    • "Hamas refuses to recognize Israel, claims the whole of Palestine as an Islamic endowment, has issued virulently antisemitic leaflets,..." Laurence F. Bove, Laura Duhan Kaplan, From the Eye of the Storm: Regional Conflicts and the Philosophy of Peace, Rodopi Press, 1995, ISBN 9051838700, p. 217.
    • "But of all the anti-Jewish screeds, it is the Protocols of the Elders of Zion that emboldens and empowers antisemites. While other antisemitic works may have a sharper intellectual base, it is the conspiratorial imagery of the Protocols that has fuled the imagination and hatred of Jews and Judaism, from the captains of industry like Henry Ford, to teenage Hamas homicide bombers." Mark Weitzman, Steven Leonard Jacobs, Dismantling the Big Lie: the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, KTAV Publishing House, 2003, ISBN 0881257850, p. xi.
    • "There is certainly very clear evidence of antisemitism in the writings and manifestos of organizations like Hamas and Hizbullah..." Human Rights Implications of the Resurgence of Racism and Anti-Semitism, United States Congress, House Committee on Foreign Affairs, Subcommittee on International Security, International Organizations and Human Rights - 1993, p. 122.
    • "In calling for holy war against Israel, the covenant of Hamas, drawn up in 1998, also employs the language of the Protocols." Frederick M. Schweitzer, Marvin Perry, Anti-Semitism: myth and hate from antiquity to the present, Palgrave Macmillan, 2002, ISBN 0312165617, p. 116.
    • "The demonization of the Jews/Zionists by the Hamas organization is also heavily shaped by European Christian anti-Semitism. This prejudice began to infiltrate the Arab world, most notably in the circulation of the 1926 Arabic translation of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion... Reliance upon the document is evidenced in the group's charter... The Protocols of the Elders of Zion also informs Hamas's belief that Israel has hegemonic aspirations that extend beyond Palestinian land. As described in the charter, the counterfeit document identifies the Zionists' wish to expand their reign from the Nile River to the Euphrates." Michael P. Arena, Bruce A. Arrigo, The Terrorist Identity: Explaining the Terrorist Threat, NYU Press, 2006, ISBN 0814707165, pp. 133-134.
    • "Standard anti-Semitic themes have become commonplace in the propaganda of Arab Islamic movements like Hizballah and Hamas..." Bernard Lewis, Semites and Anti-Semites: An Inquiry Into Conflict and Prejudice, W. W. Norton & Company, 1999, ISBN 0393318397, p. 266.
    • "From the beginning, Hamas espoused the antisemitism of the Muslim Brotherhood's leading thinkers, Hasah al-Banna and Sayyid Qutb. This fact is clear from its own ideological credo formulated as the Islamic covenant in 1988, which not only calls for Islam to eliminate Israel but also states "our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave." It cites the Hadith... in noting that at the end of time, Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them. The covenant and other Hamas publications draw on the libels of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, accusing Jews of a universal conspiracy for world domination... Some of the antisemitic canards are backed in the covenant by koranic proof texts." Levy, Richard S. Antisemitism: A Historical Encyclopedia of Prejudice and Persecution, ABL_CLIO, 2005, p. 289.ISBN 1851094393
    • "Hamas, like most Islamist groups, is fundamentally anti-Semitic (in the commonly understood sense of the word). This is seen in at least two ways. First, the Hamas discourse refers primarily to "Jewish" (al-yahud), less so "Zionists" (al-sahyunuyiun), and almost never to "Israelies" (al-isriliyun)... However, Hamas is properly termed anti-Semitic for propogating the slander of Jewish control of the world, particularly the world's financial health." Glenn E. Robinson, "Hamas as Social Movement", in Quintan Wiktorowicz, Mark Tessler. Islamic Activism: A Social Movement Theory Approach, Indiana University Press, 2004, p. 131. ISBN 0253216214
    • "In addition, classically anti-Semitic texts coming from pre-Holocaust Christian Europe, such as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, also inform the ideals and philosophy of HAMAS members and their views of Jews and Judaism." Thomas M. Leonard, Encyclopedia of the Developing World, Routledge, 2005, p. 742. ISBN 1579583881
    • "Hamas hardened the conventional tone among Arab nationalists toward the Jews, adopting anti-Semitic charges based on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion concerning a Jewish conspiracy for world domination." Shaul Mishal, Avraham Sela. The Palestinian Hamas: Vision, Violence, and Coexistence, Columbia University Press, 2000, p. 45. ISBN 0231116756
    • "Hamas.... was founded in 1987 as an overtly antisemitic organization." David Matas, Aftershock: Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism, Dundurn Press, 2005, p. 227. ISBN 1550025538
  10. ^ a b "Who are Hamas?", BBC News (January 26, 2006). 
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  12. ^ Kristen Ess. "Why Hamas Won" ZNet. Palestine, January 31, 2006.
  13. ^ "Who are Hamas?", BBC News (January 26, 2006). 
  14. ^ "The Gangs of Gaza", Newsweek, June 26, 2006.
  15. ^ "...they find themselves on the brink of civil war in a power struggle between the governing Hamas movement and President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah group. In two days of fighting between the two rival and well-armed factions, 12 Palestinians have been killed and more than 100 wounded, and there are few signs the months-long political dispute at the centre of the violence is about to die down." al-Mughrabi, Nidal and Assadi, Mohammed. Palestinian in-fighting provokes despair, frustration, Reuters, October 3, 2006.
  16. ^ David Rose, The Gaza Bombshell, Vanity Fair, April 2008
  17. ^ Carter: Stop favoring Fatah over Hamas The Jerusalem Post June 19, 2007
  18. ^ Exposing the bitter truth of Gaza carnage The Age June 23, 2007
  19. ^ CNN - Abbas outlaws Hamas militia forces
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  21. ^ a b c "Council Decision" Council of the European Union, December 21, 2005
  22. ^ EU declares Hamas terrorist organization Deseret News (Salt Lake City), Sep 7, 2003 by Frank Bruni New York Times News Service
  23. ^ Hamas: Government or Terrorist Organization? by Adam Davidson
  24. ^ EU blacklists Hamas political wing
  25. ^ The Financial Sources of the Hamas Terror Organization (Israel MFA)
  26. ^ Japan's Diplomatic Bluebook 2005 states that it has frozen the assets of "terrorist organizations, including... Hamas."
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  29. ^ a b Listing of Terrorist Organisations, Australian Government Attorney-General's Department, 27 January 2006. Accessed July 31, 2006.
  30. ^ a b " United Kingdom Home Security Office. Terrorism Act 2000. Proscribed terrorist groups
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  32. ^ حماسHamās enthusiasm, rapture; zeal; elan, fighting spirit. Wehr, Hans. Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic.
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  36. ^ "Shin Bet cracks Hamas terror cell", The Jerusalem Post (6 February 2006). 
  37. ^ Carter: Stop favoring Fatah over Hamas, The Jerusalem Post, 19 June 2007
  38. ^ The CEC announces the final results of the second PLC elections
  39. ^ a b "Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto", The Guardian (January 12, 2006). 
  40. ^ a b "Hamas: Ceasefire for return to 1967 border", Y Net News (January 30, 2006). 
  41. ^ a b Peace with Israel for withdrawal to ’67 borders, ynetnews March 3, 2006
  42. ^ Hamas delegation arrives in Moscow, ynetnews March 3, 2006
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  46. ^ Mahnaimi, Uzi. Israel foils plot to kill Palestinian president, The Sunday Times, 7 May 2006
  47. ^ Saud Abu Ramadan and David Rosenberg. Palestinians Reach Accord on Forging Unity Government". Bloomberg, 9 February 2007.
  48. ^ "Death on the Beach: Seven Palestinians killed as Israeli shells hit family picnic", The Guardian (2006-06-10). 
  49. ^ "Palestinian Child Buries Slain Family", IslamOnline.net (2006-06-11). 
  50. ^ Militants Fire Rockets Into South Israel
  51. ^ "ISRAELIS, PALESTINIANS URGED TO 'STEP BACK FROM THE BRINK', AVERT FULL-SCALE CONFLICT, AS SECURITY COUNCIL DEBATES EVENTS IN GAZA", UN (2006-06-30). 
  52. ^ What Happens After Hamas Wins? Time
  53. ^ "Fatah and Hamas agree on Yemeni plan to resume talks (Roundup)", m&c (2008-03-23). 
  54. ^ Israel agrees to Gaza ceasefire BBC News
  55. ^ Ha'aretz 30 July 2008, Abbas vows to dismantle PA if Israel frees Hamas prisoners for Shalit by Uri Blau
  56. ^ Khalid Amayreh. "'Cartoons reflect Europe's Islamophobia'". Interview with Aziz Duwaik. Al Jazeera English. February 6, 2006.
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  58. ^ Khaled Abu Toameh (April 2, 2006). "'I dream of a map without Israel'". Jerusalem Post.
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  64. ^ Madelene Axelsson (January 27, 2006). "Islamistisk politik vinner mark". Stockholms Fria Tidning. (Swedish)
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  69. ^ Ali Abunimah, author of "One Country: A Bold Proposal to End the Israeli-Palestinian Impasse," states: "It had observed the unilateral truce with Israel. It had given up suicide attacks against Israeli civilians. And there was no response to that. On the contrary." "As Hamas Seizes Full Control of Gaza and US Prepares Further Isolation, What Next for Palestinians?" Democracy Now!. 15 June 2007
  70. ^ "Hope for a Mideast resolution could grow with Hamas leadership" Christian Science Monitor. January 31, 2006.
  71. ^ Hamas threatens to break ceasefire after Israeli air strikes The Daily Telegraph, 17 October 2006
  72. ^ a b In Gaza, Hamas's Insults to Jews Complicate Peace - New York Times
  73. ^ Carter Says Hamas and Syria Are Open For Peace New York Times, 22 April 2008
  74. ^ Hamas Offers Israel 10-Year Truce MSNBC
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  76. ^ "If indeed there is a cessation of terrorist attacks, if indeed there is an end to the military build-up in Gaza, if indeed there is movement on the issue of Gilad Shalit, this indeed will be a new reality." - Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said to AFP
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  127. ^ http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terror+Groups/Missile%20fire%20from%20Gaza%20on%20Israeli%20civilian%20targets%20Aug%202007
  128. ^ a b Erased In A Moment: Suicide Bombing Attacks Against Israeli Civilians V. Structures and Strategies of the Perpetrator Organizations, Human Rights Watch, October, 2002. ISBN 1-56432-280-7
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  130. ^ Abbas: Hamas truce violations are an exception, won't continue - Haaretz - Israel News
  131. ^ BICOM Fact Sheet 2: Ashkelon - The Changing Scenario BICOM. 2008-05-03.
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  133. ^ "Hamas and Palestinian Nationalism" (October 3, 2006).
  134. ^ United States v. Abu Marzook. No. 03 CR 978 12. IL District Ct. 2005.
  135. ^ Lake, Eli. "Hamas Agents Lurking in U.S., FBI Warns." New York Sun. 29 April 2004. 10 December 2006.
  136. ^ "Hamas threatens attacks on US", Yedioth Ahronoth (24 December 2006). 
  137. ^ FBI Press Room: Testimony of Robert S. Mueller, III, Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation, before the Senate Committee on Intelligence of the United States Senate. February 16, 2005
  138. ^ "Hamas to Muslims: Attack US targets", The Jerusalem Post (November 8, 2006). 
  139. ^ "Israeli Shells Kill 18; Hamas Calls for Retaliation", The New York Times (November 8, 2006). 
  140. ^ Fatah, Hamas gunbattles kill 7 (Toronto Star) October 1, 2006
  141. ^ Hamas Seizes Palestinian Red Crescent Aid Convoy RTTNews 2/7/2008
  142. ^ Human rights group accused Palestinian militants of "war crimes&quot
  143. ^ Hamas Wins Key Battles in Gaza Strip - Inside Israel - CBN News
  144. ^ New mood in Gaza? - Israel Opinion, Ynetnews
  145. ^ BBC NEWS | Middle East | Unrest erupts in Gaza Strip
  146. ^ Palestinians hunt collaborators in wake of Rantisi assassination | From Occupied Palestine
  147. ^ Gaza Coup: Islamization is coming
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  149. ^ Shot by their own side, healed by the enemy - Telegraph
  150. ^ Angered by preacher's death, protesters stand against Abbas - CNN.com
  151. ^ "Hamas: Government or Terrorist Organization?". NPR.org. December 6, 2006.
  152. ^ "Hamas is listed as a terrorist group in the Criminal Code of Canada." Tibbetts, Janice. Canada shuts out Hamas ,The Montreal Gazette, March 30, 2006.
  153. ^ The Financial Sources of the Hamas Terror Organization, 2003-07-30
  154. ^ Yossi Verter (2008-02-27). "Poll: Most Israelis back direct talks with Hamas on Shalit", Haaretz. Retrieved on 2008-02-27. 
  155. ^ "Japan's Diplomatic Bluebook 2005" (PDF) (2005). Retrieved on 2008-01-26. "Japan has implemented UN Security Council resolutions concerning anti-terrorist sanctions. In accordance with the Foreign Exchange and Foreign Trade Law, it has frozen the assets of a total of 472 terrorists and terrorist organizations, including Al-Qaeda and Taliban members, such as Usama bin Laden and Mullah Mohammed Omar, as well as those of Hamas, ..."
  156. ^ "Norway turns down US request over Hamas representatives' visit", Peoples Daily China (2006-04-25). Retrieved on 2008-07-19. 
  157. ^ Pew Research Center Global Attitues Survey: Global Unease With Major World Powers, June 27, 2007
  158. ^ $116m awarded in terrorism suit The Boston Globe
  159. ^ Two Men Acquitted of Conspiracy To Fund Hamas Activities in Israel - washingtonpost.com

 

  1. ^ The Arab-Israeli Dilemma (Contemporary Issues in the Middle East), Syracuse University Press; 3rd edition (August, 1985 ISBN 0-8156-2340-2
  2. ^ Kintera.org - The Giving Communities
  3. ^ "Geography of Water Resources", Princeton University. Retrieved September 5, 2007.
  4. ^ UK recognition of Israel and of Jordanian annexation of the West Bank, House of Commons, April 17, 1950 - scan as PDF file
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  8. ^ a b "Legal Consequence of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory" International Court of Justice, July 9, 2004. Retrieved October 4, 2005
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  11. ^ 2005 Israeli Supreme Court ruling
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  14. ^ 'Legal status of East Jerusalem and its residents.' B'Tselem: The Israeli Information Center for the Occupied Territories.

 

  1. ^ a b "The Palestine Exploration Fund". The Palestine Exploration Fund. Retrieved on 2008-04-04.
  2. ^ Forji Amin George (June 2004). "Is Palestine a State?". Expert Law. Retrieved on 2008-04-04.
  3. ^ http://web.archive.org/web/20060404211437/http://www.pna.gov.ps/Government/gov/recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine.asp
  4. ^ Said and Hitchens, 2001, p. 199.
  5. ^ Jewish Encyclopedia [1]
  6. ^ http://www.levitt.com/essays/palestine.html
  7. ^ Greek Παλαιστινη from Φυλιστινος/Φυλιστιειμ, see e.g. Josephus, Antiquities I.136; cf.
  8. ^ a b c Carl S. Ehrlich "Philistines" The Oxford Guide to People and Places of the Bible. Ed. Bruce M. Metzger and Michael D. Coogan. Oxford University Press, 2001.
  9. ^ M.L. West, The East Face of Helicon: West Asiatic Elements in Greek Poetry and Myth, Clarendon Press, Oxford 1997 p. 38 n148
  10. ^ Killebrew, 2005, p. 231.
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  12. ^ Carol A. Redmount, 'Bitter Lives: Israel in and out of Egypt' in The Oxford History of the Biblical Word, ed: Michael D. Coogan, (Oxford University Press: 1999), p. 97
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  19. ^ Herodotus, The Histories Bk.7.89
  20. ^ Pliny the Elder, Natural History V.66 and 68.
  21. ^ e.g. Antiquities 1.136.
  22. ^ Palestine and Israel David M. Jacobson Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, No. 313 (Feb., 1999), pp. 65-74
  23. ^ a b c d e f Lehmann, Clayton Miles (May-September 1998). "Palestine: History: 135–337: Syria Palaestina and the Tetrarchy". The On-line Encyclopedia of the Roman Provinces. University of South Dakota. Retrieved on 2006-07-19.
  24. ^ Palestine and Israel Jacobson, David M. Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, No. 313 (February 1999), pp. 65-74
  25. ^ Thomas L. Thompson (1999). The Mythic Past:How Writers Create the Past. Basic Books. ISBN 0465006493. 
  26. ^ Israel Finkelstein and Neil Ascher Silberman (2000). "The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts". Bible and Interpretation. Retrieved on 2007-05-14.
  27. ^ a b c Shahin (2005), p. 3
  28. ^ Galilee, Sea of. (2007). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved August 12, 2007, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online
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  33. ^ Stearns, 2001, p. 13.
  34. ^ Harris, 1996, p. 253.
  35. ^ Rosen, 1997, pp. 159–161.
  36. ^ Neil Asher Silberman, Thomas E. Levy, Bonnie L. Wisthoff, Ron E. Tappy, John L. Meloy "Near East" The Oxford Companion to Archaeology. Brian M. Fagan, ed., Oxford University Press 1996.
  37. ^ Canaan. (2007). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved August 12, 2007, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online.
  38. ^ Mills, 1990, p. 439.
  39. ^ "Palestine: Middle Bronze Age". Encyclopedia Britannica Online. Retrieved on 2007-08-11.
  40. ^ Ember & Peregrine, 2002, p. 103.
  41. ^ William H. Propp "Amarna Letters" The Oxford Companion to the Bible. Bruce M. Metzger and Michael D. Coogan, eds. Oxford University Press Inc. 1993. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press.
  42. ^ Carl S. Ehrlich "Philistines" The Oxford Guide to People and Places of the Bible. Ed. Bruce M. Metzger and Michael D. Coogan. Oxford University Press, 2001. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press.
  43. ^ Philistine. (2007). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved August 12, 2007, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online
  44. ^ a b Gyémánt, Ladislau (2003). "Historiographic Views on the Settlement of the Jewish Tribes in Canaan" 1/2003: 26–30. Sacra Scripta. 
  45. ^ a b c d e Niels Peter Lemche. "On the Problems of Reconstructing Pre-Hellenistic Israelite (Palestinian) History". Journal of Hebrew Scriptures. Retrieved on 2007-05-10.
  46. ^ A magazine story of the site's discovery is available here: Eilat Mazar: Uncovering King David's Palace
  47. ^ Erlanger, Steven (2005-08-05). "King David's Palace Is Found, Archaeologist Says", The New York Times. Retrieved on 2007-05-24. 
  48. ^ A San Diego Union Tribune article on the discovery: [2]
  49. ^ Matthew Sturgis, It ain't necessarily so, ISBN 0-7472-4510-X
  50. ^ Carol A. Redmount, 'Bitter Lives: Israel in and out of Egypt' in The Oxford History of the Biblical Word, ed: Michael D. Coogan, (Oxford University Press: 1999)
  51. ^ Stager, Lawrence E., "Forging an Identity: The Emergence of Ancient Israel" in Michael Coogan ed. The Oxford History of the Biblical World, Oxford University Press, 2001. p.92
  52. ^ M. G. Hasel, "Israel in the Merneptah Stela", BASOR 296, 1994, pp.54 & 56, n.12.
  53. ^ Baruch Margalit, "Studies in NWSemitic Inscriptions", Ugarit-Forschungen 26, p. 275
  54. ^ Time (magazine), December 18, 1995.
  55. ^ For a full but technical discussion, see Lawrence J. Mykytiuk, _Identifying Biblical Persons in Northwest Semitic Inscriptions of 1200–539 BCE_, Academia Biblica series, no. 12 (Atlanta: Society of Biblical Literature, 2004), pp. 265–277.
  56. ^ a b c d e "Facts about Israel:History". Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affaits. Retrieved on 2007-05-10.
  57. ^ Bienkowski, op.cit.
  58. ^ "Babylon" A Dictionary of the Bible. W. R. F. Browning. Oxford University Press, 1997. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press.
  59. ^ Diana Edelman (November 2005). "Redating the Building of the Second Temple".
  60. ^ a b c d e Palestine. (2007). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved August 12, 2007, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online.
  61. ^ "Avdat: A Nabatean City in the Negev". Jewish Virtual Library. Retrieved on 2007-08-11.
  62. ^ a b c d e f g h i Shahin (2005), p. 7
  63. ^ "Hellenistic Greece:Alexander the Great". Washington State University (1996). Retrieved on 2007-08-11.
  64. ^ Pastor, 1997, p. 41.
  65. ^ "Palestine". Britannica. Retrieved on 2007-08-14.
  66. ^ Julie Galambush (2006). "The Reluctant Parting: How the New Testament's Jewish Writers Created a Christian Book". HarperCollins.ca. Retrieved on 2007-08-20.
  67. ^ Dick Doughty (September-October 1994). "Gaza:Contested Crossroads". SaudiAramcoWorld. Retrieved on 2007-08-20.
  68. ^ "Tell Balatah (Shechem or Ancient Nablus)". World Monuments Watch:100 Most Endangered Sites 2006. Retrieved on 2007-08-20.
  69. ^ Hayes & Mandell, 1998, p. 41.
  70. ^ a b c Johnston, 2004, p. 186.
  71. ^ Chancey, 2005, p. 44.
  72. ^ "Herod". Concise Encyclopedia Britannica. Retrieved on 2007-08-11.
  73. ^ "Introducing Young People to the Protection of Heritage Sites and Historic Cities". UNESCO (2003). Retrieved on 2007-08-14.
  74. ^ "HERODIUM (Jebel Fureidis) Jordan/Israel". The Princeton Encyclopedia of Classical Sites. Retrieved on 2007-08-11.
  75. ^ "publisher=The Princeton Encyclopedia of Classical Sites". Retrieved on 2007-08-11.
  76. ^ a b "Judaea-Palestine". UNRV History: Roman Empire. Retrieved on 2007-08-14.
  77. ^ a b c d e f g h Shahin (2005), page 8
  78. ^ Shaye I.D. Cohen. "Legitimization Under Constantine". PBS. Retrieved on 2007-08-11.
  79. ^ Thomas A. Idniopulos (1998). "Weathered by Miracles: A History of Palestine From Bonaparte and Muhammad Ali to Ben-Gurion and the Mufti". Retrieved on 2007-08-11.
  80. ^ "Roman Arabia". Encyclopedia Britannica. Retrieved on 2007-08-11.
  81. ^ a b c Kenneth G. Holum "Palestine" The Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium. Ed. Alexander P. Kazhdan. Oxford University Press 1991.
  82. ^ a b c d Shahin (2005), page 10
  83. ^ CALIPH UMAR'S ADDRESS AFTER JERUSALEM
  84. ^ The Fight for Jerusalem: Radical Islam, the West, and the Future of the Holy City By Dore Gold, pg. 97
  85. ^ Walid Khalidi (1984). Before Their Diaspora. Institute for Palestine Studies, Washington DC, 27 - 28. 
  86. ^ Haim Gerber (Fall 2003). ""Zionism, Orientalism, and the Palestinians"". Journal of Palestine Studies Vol. 33, No. 1: 23–41. Journal of Palestine Studies. doi:10.1525/jps.2003.33.1.23. 
  87. ^ a b James Parkes. "Palestine Under the Caliphs". MidEastWeb. Retrieved on 2007-08-20.
  88. ^ Rizwi Faizer (1998). "The Shape of the Holy: Early Islamic Jerusalem". Rizwi's Bibliography for Medieval Islam. Retrieved on 2007-07-14.
  89. ^ Ahl al-Kitab. (2007). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved August 12, 2007, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online
  90. ^ Ghada Hashem Talhami (February 2000). "The Modern History of Islamic Jerusalem: Academic Myths and Propaganda" Volume VII, No. 2. Middle East Policy Council. Retrieved on 2007-08-20. 
  91. ^ Yaacov Lev (2007). "The Ethics and Practice of Islamic Medieval Charity" 5, Issue 2: 603–618. History Compass. 
  92. ^ a b c d e f g h Shahin (2005), p. 11
  93. ^ M. Cherif Bassiouni (2004). "Islamic Civilization: An Overview". Middle East Institute: The George Camp Keiser Library. Retrieved on 2007-08-14.
  94. ^ "Egypt: The Fatimid Period 969 - 1771". Arab Net (2002). Retrieved on 2007-08-14.
  95. ^ David Nicolle (July 2005). Crusader Castles in the Holy Land 1192-1302. Osprey. ISBN 9781841768274. 
  96. ^ "Projects:The Old City of Akko (Acre)". Israeli Antiquities Authority. Retrieved on 2007-08-14.
  97. ^ Frank Heynick, Jews and medicine, An Epic Saga, KTAV Publishing House, Inc., 2002 p.103, commenting on Maimonidies' decision not to settle there a century later.
  98. ^ a b c Kenneth Setton, ed. A History of the Crusades, vol. I. University of Pennsylvania Press, 1958
  99. ^ a b c d e f Shahin (2005), page 12.
  100. ^ a b Walid Khalidi (1984). Before Their Diaspora. Institute for Palestine Studies, Washington DC, 28 - 29. 
  101. ^ "[http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/ihame/Sec11.htm Islam and Islamic History in Arabia and The Middle East: The Mongols and the Mamluks]". Islamicity. Retrieved on 2007-08-14.
  102. ^ Chase, 2003, pp. 104-105.
  103. ^ a b Gideon Biger, The Boundaries of Modern Palestine, 1840-1947, pp. 13-15. Routledge, 2004. ISBN 0714656542
  104. ^ Gerber, 1998.
  105. ^ Mandel, 1976, p. xx.
  106. ^ Judith Mendelsohn Rood, Sacred Law in the Holy City, p. 46. Brill Publishers, 2004.
  107. ^ Bernard Lewis, "Palestine: On the History and Geography of a Name", International History Review 11 (1980): 1-12
  108. ^ Porath, 1974, pp. 8-9.
  109. ^ Haim Gerber (1998) referring to fatwas by two Hanafite Syrian jurists.
  110. ^ [Biger]
  111. ^ Hughes, 1999, p. 17; p. 97.
  112. ^ 'Zionist Aspirations: Dr Weizmann on the Future of Palestine', The Times, Saturday, 8 May, 1920; p. 15.
  113. ^ Gelber, 1997, pp. 6-15.
  114. ^ Sicker, 1999, p. 164.
  115. ^ CAABU :: The Council for Arab-British Understanding
  116. ^ No. 565. — EXCHANGE OF NOTES * CONSTITUTING AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE BRITISH AND FRENCH GOVERNMENTS RESPECTING THE BOUNDARY LINE BETWEEN SYRIA AND PALESTINE FROM THE MEDITERRANEAN TO EL HAMMÉ, PARIS MARCH 7, 1923, Page 7 Border Treaty
  117. ^ Louis, 1969, p. 90.
  118. ^ Project Gutenberg: The Peace Negotiations by Robert Lansing, Boston and New York: Houghton Mifflin Company. 1921, Chapter XIII 'THE SYSTEM OF MANDATES'

    If the advocates of the system intended to avoid through its operation the appearance of taking enemy territory as the spoils of war, it was a subterfuge which deceived no one. It seemed obvious from the very first that the Powers, which under the old practice would have obtained sovereignty over certain conquered territories, would not be denied mandates over those territories. The League of Nations might reserve in the mandate a right of supervision of administration and even of revocation of authority, but that right would be nominal and of little, if any, real value provided the mandatory was one of the Great Powers as it undoubtedly would be. The almost irresistible conclusion is that the protagonists of the theory saw in it a means of clothing the League of Nations with an apparent usefulness which justified the League by making it the guardian of uncivilized and semi-civilized peoples and the international agent to watch over and prevent any deviation from the principle of equality in the commercial and industrial development of the mandated territories.

    It may appear surprising that the Great Powers so readily gave their support to the new method of obtaining an apparently limited control over the conquered territories, and did not seek to obtain complete sovereignty over them. It is not necessary to look far for a sufficient and very practical reason. If the colonial possessions of Germany had, under the old practice, been divided among the victorious Powers and been ceded to them directly in full sovereignty, Germany might justly have asked that the value of such territorial cessions be applied on any war indemnities to which the Powers were entitled. On the other hand, the League of Nations in the distribution of mandates would presumably do so in the interests of the inhabitants of the colonies and the mandates would be accepted by the Powers as a duty and not to obtain new possessions. Thus under the mandatory system Germany lost her territorial assets, which might have greatly reduced her financial debt to the Allies, while the latter obtained the German colonial possessions without the loss of any of their claims for indemnity. In actual operation the apparent altruism of the mandatory system worked in favor of the selfish and material interests of the Powers which accepted the mandates. And the same may be said of the dismemberment of Turkey. It should not be a matter of surprise, therefore, that the President found little opposition to the adoption of his theory, or, to be more accurate, of the Smuts theory, on the part of the European statesmen.

  119. ^ Henry Cabot Lodge: Reservations with Regard to the Treaty and the League of Nations
  120. ^ Classic Senate Speeches and the Denunciation of the Mandate System, starting on page 7, col. 1
  121. ^ Palestine Mandate Convention between the United States of America and Great Britain, Signed at London, December 3, 1924, starting on page 212 of FRUS, 1924, Volume II.
  122. ^ see for example the negtiations under DELAY IN EXCHANGE OF RATIFICATIONS OF THE PALESTINE MANDATE CONVENTION PENDING ADJUSTMENT OF CASES INVOLVING THE CAPITULATORY RIGHTS OF AMERICANS, 1925
  123. ^ Excerpts from League of Nations Official Journal dated June 1922, pp. 546-549
  124. ^ Ingrams, 1972
  125. ^ "Mandate for Palestine - Interim report of the Mandatory to the LoN/Balfour Declaration text". League of Nations (1921-07-30). Retrieved on 2007-03-08.
  126. ^ Henry Laurens, La Question de Palestine, Fayard, Paris 2002 vol.2 p.101
  127. ^ Colonel Archer-Cust, Chief Secretary of the British Government in Palestine, said in a lecture to the Royal Empire Society that "The hanging of the two British Sergeants [an Irgun retaliation to British executions] did more than anything to get us out [of Palestine]". (The United Empire Journal, November-December 1949, taken from The Revolt, by Menachem Begin)
  128. ^ United States Proposal for Temporary United Nations Trusteeship for Palestine, Statement by President Truman, March 25, 1948
  129. ^ Population data calculated from three pages of the online CIA World Factbook [3] [4] [5]
  130. ^ Statistics, accessed 21 May, 2007.
  131. ^ Magen Broshi, The Population of Western Palestine in the Roman-Byzantine Period, Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, No. 236, p.7, 1979.
  132. ^ Yigal Shiloh, The Population of Iron Age Palestine in the Light of a Sample Analysis of Urban Plans, Areas, and Population Density, Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, No. 239, p.33, 1980.
  133. ^ Katz, p.113-115 (Hebrew)
  134. ^ Tomas Shaw, Travels and Observations Relating to Several Parts of Barbary and the Levant (London, 1767), p. 331ff.; Constantine Francois Volney, Travels Through Syria and Egypt in the Years 1783, 1784 and 1785 (London, 1787); Alexander Keith, The Land of Israel (Edinburgh, 1944), P. 465.
  135. ^ Conder, C. R. (1900). "Palestine". A Dictionary of the Bible III. Ed. James Hastings. pages 646-647. 
  136. ^ Les Juifs dans l'empire romain (1914), 1, 209f.
  137. ^ Referred to by W C Lowdermilk, Palestine, Land of Promise,(1944), p. 47.
  138. ^ From Jesus to Paul (1944), 33.
  139. ^ Herod the Great (1971), 165.
  140. ^ A Social and Religious History of the Jews, 2nd ed. (1952), Vol. 1, 168, 370-2.
  141. ^ Encyclopaedia Biblica column 3550.
  142. ^ Referred to by W C Lowdermilk, Palestine, Land of Promise (1944), 47.
  143. ^ The Holy Land (1966), 220, 221.
  144. ^ Letter of 16 December 1941 reported by Lowdermilk, ibid, 47.
  145. ^ Die Bevolkerung der griechischromischen Welt (1886), 242-9.
  146. ^ Economic Background of the Gospels (1926), 83.
  147. ^ Byatt, 1973.
  148. ^ Daily Life in Palestine at the Time of Christ (1962), 43.
  149. ^ Preparing the Way for Paul (1930), 115.
  150. ^ History of New Testament Times (1949), 189.
  151. ^ Mission und Ausbreitung des Christentums (1915), 1, 10.
  152. ^ Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus (1969), 205.
  153. ^ The Density of Population in Ancient Palestine, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol 66 (1947), 425-36.
  154. ^ Bernard Lewis, Studies in the Ottoman Archives--I, Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 16, No. 3, pp. 469-501, 1954
  155. ^ Katz, 115 citing C.F.C Conte de Volney: Travels through Syria & Egypt in the years 1783, 1784, 1785 (London, 1798). Vol II p. 219
  156. ^ DellaPergola, 2001, p. 5.
  157. ^ Scholch, 1985, p. 503.
  158. ^ McCarthy, 1990, p.26.
  159. ^ McCarthy, 1990.
  160. ^ Sachar, p. 167.
  161. ^ McCarthy, 1990, pp. 37-38.
  162. ^ Katz, 114 citing Alphonse de Lamartine, Recollections of the East, Vol. I (London, 1845), pp. 268, 308.
  163. ^ Chapter 56.
  164. ^ Chapter 52.
  165. ^ Chapter 49.
  166. ^ Chapter 46.
  167. ^ see: Tom Sawyer Abroad Chapter 1
  168. ^ K. Christison, Perceptions of Palestine: Their Influence on U.S. Middle East Policy, Univ. of California Press, 1999; p16.
  169. ^ K. Christison, Perceptions of Palestine: Their Influence on US Middle East Policy, Univ. of California Press, 1999; p. 20.
  170. ^ B. B. Doumani, The political economy of population counts in Ottoman Palestine: Nablus, Circa 1950, International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol 26 (1994) 1-17.
  171. ^ J. McCarthy, The population of Ottoman Syria and Iraq, 1878-1914, Asian and African Studies, vol. 15 (1981) pp. 3-44. K. H. Karpat, Ottoman population 1830-1914 (Univ. Wisconsin Press, 1985).
  172. ^ Alan Dowty, Much Ado about Little: Ahad Ha'am's "Truth from Eretz Yisrael", Zionism, and the Arabs, Israel Studies, Vol. 5, No. 2 (Fall 2000) 154-181.
  173. ^ The Lands of the Saracen, by Bayard Taylor
  174. ^ Abu-Lughod, 1971, p. 126.
  175. ^ RELANDI HADRIANI Palaestina ex monumentis veteribus illustrata. Trajecti Batavorum, Guilielmi, 1714., pages 648-649
  176. ^ Marwan R. Beheiry, "The Agricultural Exports of Southern Palestine, 1885-1 9 14", Journal of Palestine Studies, volume 10, No. 4, 198 1, p. 67.
  177. ^ Palestine's Economic Future: A Review of Progress and Prospects (London: Percy Lund Humphries and Co., Ltd., 1946), pp. 19-23.
  178. ^ Palestine: The Original Sin , Meir Abelson [6]
  179. ^ Heat, humidity, malaria, and yellow fever conspired to destroy the settlement of Am Olam near Newport Arkansas in 1884. Ninety percent of its residents became ill, and twenty died. After a miserable year, the remaining settlers decided to try their luck in other parts of the United States. The Encyclopedia of Arkansas History & Culture Project
  180. ^ In 1882 the first Jewish agricultural colony in Kansas was established. It was named Beersheba. Dugouts and sod houses were constructed for homes, a synagogue, and school. Cow chips were used for fuel. Wells were dug and the native prairie was plowed and planted. Farming proved to be unprofitable and severe winters produced hardships. In the 1890s the colonists sold or abandoned their homesteads. A decade after the colony was established, no one remained and the land reverted to prairie. Beersheba and Early Kansas Town
  181. ^ The Last of the Jewish Farmgirls
  182. ^ Jewish Virtual Library: Arabs in Palestine
  183. ^ Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine
  184. ^ Journal Abstract: Almut Nebel, Dvora Filon, Deborah A. Weiss, Michael Weale, Marina Faerman, Ariella Oppenheim, Mark G. Thomas. 2000 "High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews". Human Genetics 107(6): 630-641.
  185. ^ Journal Article: Almut Nebel, Dvora Filon, Bernd Brinkmann, Partha P. Majumder, Marina Faerman, Ariella Oppenheim. 2001. "The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East". American Journal of Human Genetics 69(5): 1095–1112.
  186. ^ From Time Immemorial - Natural Increase and the Growth of Palestine's Arab Population
  187. ^ Sachar, p. 167.
  188. ^ Sachar, pp. 167–168
  189. ^ Gilbert, 2005, p. 16.
  190. ^ Gottheil, 2003.
  191. ^ a b McCarthy, 1990, p. 33.
  192. ^ a b McCarthy, 1990, p. 16.
  193. ^ McCarthy, 1990, p. 38.
  194. ^ McCarthy, 1990, pp. 16-17.
  195. ^ Gilbar, 1986, p. 188.
  196. ^ Schmelz, 1990, pp. 15-67.
  197. ^ Porath, Y. (1986). Mrs. Peters's Palestine. New York Review of Books. 16 January, 32 (21 & 22).
  198. ^ Mrs. Peters's Palestine: An Exchange, The New York Review of Books, Volume 33, Number 5, March 27, 1986.
  199. ^ Central Bureau of Statistics, Government of Israel. "Population, by religion and population group" (PDF). Retrieved on 2006-04-08.
  200. ^ Central Bureau of Statistics, Government of Israel. "Jews and others, by origin, continent of birth and period of immigration" (PDF). Retrieved on 2006-04-08.
  201. ^ Bennett Zimmerman & Roberta Seid (January 23, 2006). "Arab Population in the West Bank & Gaza: The Million Person Gap". American-Israel Demographic Research Group. Retrieved on 2006-09-27.
  202. ^ Sergio DellaPergola (Winter 2007, No. 27). "Letter to the Editor". Azure. Retrieved on 2007-01-11.
  203. ^ Jordan: Facts & Figures, accessed 22 May, 2007.
  204. ^ CIA World Factbook, accessed 22 May, 2007.
  205. ^ Assessment for Palestinians in Jordan, Minorities at Risk, accessed 22 May, 2007.

 

...Well over 500 total. Heh, kind of funny; these articles contain more citations than Pape's book contains case studies.

Quote:
Which kinda strengthens my point. Who's preventing it from becoming a state Kev?

You're begging the question. It doesn't 'strengthen' your point at all; it completely contradicts what you said. Palestine is not being occupied by Israel, because there's no state to occupy! There never was.

Quote:
During the 1982-1986 suicide campaign against Israel

Hilarious. You ignore the rest of what I cited, then go with Pape's cherry-picked single four year period where you might be able to argue that there were more secular suicide bombers hitting Israel (I would still contest Pape's 'research'), and that apparently is substantial evidence that Islamic extremism was not the motivation behind acts of terrorism like 9/11.

Tell you what, sweet cheeks, you go look-up the Madrid train bombings; in the meantime, here's a little something for you to puzzle over:

Pape's 'campaign' date cut-off? 1986.

The founding of Hamas by Ahmed Yassin? 1987.

My. That's a rather curious thing, isn't it?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


Cpt_pineapple
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Quote:Dr. Pape curiously did

Quote:

Dr. Pape curiously did not submit for peer review in the academic community

 

 

Care to back up this claim?

 

Oh yeah and noticed how you didn't address the issue?

 

Quote:

You're begging the question. It doesn't 'strengthen' your point at all; it completely contradicts what you said. Palestine is not being occupied by Israel, because there's no state to occupy! There never was.

 

Israel troops are still present in what they percieve as their homeland.

 

Quote:

Hilarious. You ignore the rest of what I cited, then go with Pape's cherry-picked single four year period where you might be able to argue that there were more secular suicide bombers hitting Israel (I would still contest Pape's 'research'), and that apparently is substantial evidence that Islamic extremism was not the motivation behind acts of terrorism like 9/11.

 

Strawman. I brought that up since you mentioned Israel, and to mention that some of those who commited it for the secular groups were Muslim. Ergo they did not do it for paradise, but for other reasons.

 

Quote:

(I would still contest Pape's 'research')

 

On what grounds?

 

Quote:

Tell you what, sweet cheeks, you go look-up the Madrid train bombings; in the meantime, here's a little something for you to puzzle over:

Pape's 'campaign' date cut-off? 1986.

The founding of Hamas by Ahmed Yassin? 1987.

My. That's a rather curious thing, isn't it?

He likes to do a little thing called collecting data. That was a campaign with enough data to study.


 


Kevin R Brown
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Quote:On what grounds?It was

Quote:
On what grounds?

It was not peer-reviewed science.

 

Anyway, Cap, we're getting further and further away from the topic of this thread. Do you have anything to say about Orwell's work?

Oh, wait. You already answered that.

 

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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 Aw, Kev, I didn't read the

 Aw, Kev, I didn't read the thread very closely, but it appears that you didn't cover the 

Ministry of Truth (or Ignorance is Strength)

At a certain point, all theists will tell you that they believe in their religion because of faith! If you have to use faith, then you're obviously full of crap. All faith means is that you lack evidence for your belief, but you're going to wallow in your delusion anyways because it makes you feel comfortable.

If you have faith that evolution is false, then you obviously don't know anything about natural selection. You have faith that radiometric dating is false because you don't know shit about dating the age of the Earth.

Yet, nowadays, this has unfathomably become a virtue, (thus, ignorance is strength) when believing in something unreasonable makes you righteous and courageous.  

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


Kevin R Brown
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Well, to be honest, I'm not

Well, to be honest, I'm not sure that the Ministry of Truth draws parallels with religion as strongly as it does with politics. The Bible was not, afterall, a Stalinist attempt at 'retouching' history - it was an explanation from ignorance on how the world works. The key element here (IMHO) is obedience; the decrees from the Ministry are so infallible, so to (double)speak, that even history would be wrong to correct them.

There's definately an edge of 'don't question the word of the divine' there, but only to a certain degree. The Ministry would not likely declare radiometric dating as flawed - it would champion it's use, then distort the findings of scientists.

Of course, given that we're interpreting fiction and then using it as an analogue to religion, I imagine there's room for variety in interpretation. Sticking out tongue

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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I love this thread. 

I love this thread.  Honestly, this makes me so happy I'm giggling like a school girl.  I'm not going to really interject much because things are going very well without me, but I wanted to answer a quick question for Rhad.

Observe:

P: There is no god.

C: Therefore, ?????

See?  Nothing can be derived from atheism.  In order to reach any conclusion whatsoever, you need another premise.  Since no other premise can be derived from atheism, it is certain that Premise 2 will be derived from something other than atheism.  That means that any conclusion involving atheism must be made in conjunction with another source.

To restate, it is logically impossible for anything to follow from atheism alone.  Any conclusion that derived from atheism as a premise must also contain at least one other premise that is NOT atheism.

EDIT: Or, to put it even more precisely:

~G

Therefore: ?????

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
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