A challenge to you misguided atheists [PLAGIARISM]

Venomfangx
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A challenge to you misguided atheists [PLAGIARISM]

Rather than approach atheists in the same way by religious propaganda and biblical quotations I will take a less dismissing approach that you atheists love arguing. Science, and reason. I will present 6 arguments below and challenge any atheist here to them. Let's begin.

1,785 words of this post were stolen from: http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

The only original work was the portion above and the portion below.  Please note that the portion below is dishonest as these arguments are not his arguments, they are stolen arguments. 

[EDIT BY SAPIENT]

 

Please do not try to dodge my arguments like many I have seen do before with "anything we give you wont accept anyways" Your ineptness will only make greater the christian cause.

 


Cpt_pineapple
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Bingo! Darwin has clearly

Bingo! Darwin has clearly made a monkey outta these fools.


Zymotic
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THE venomfangx?Your

THE venomfangx?

Your arguments boil down to this:

1. If things were different, they would be different.

2. You clearly have no idea how evolution works.

3. Special pleading.

4. Appeal to popularity.

My Brand New Blog - Jesu Ad Nauseum.
God of the Gaps: As knowledge approaches infinity, God approaches zero. It's introductory calculus.


Venomfangx
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Hey Cpt_pineapple

Hello, and thank you for responding to my post. I contend we both agree thus far.  I've yet to see the so called "Rational Responders" change our beliefs in god yet. Ha.


Iruka Naminori
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Venomfangx wrote:Hello, and

Venomfangx wrote:

Hello, and thank you for responding to my post. I contend we both agree thus far.  I've yet to see the so called "Rational Responders" change our beliefs in god yet. Ha.

I could be wrong, but I think Pineapple was being sarcastic.

Books on atheism, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


Cpt_pineapple
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Venomfangx wrote:Hello, and

Venomfangx wrote:

Hello, and thank you for responding to my post. I contend we both agree thus far.  I've yet to see the so called "Rational Responders" change our beliefs in god yet. Ha.

 

Yeah, how can they even reason if their brain is a higher form of organic ooze??

 

 

Theism is bulletproof!

 

 


Kevin R Brown
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Uh. Really?

Uh. Really? VenomFangX?

 

Like, this VenomFangX? :

 

 

Venom, though I doubt the veracity of your facts regardless, I find something rather curious:

If God created everything, he had absolute control over every variable. He could've made it totally unecessary for humans to breathe, consume food, drink water, etc. He could've formed the universe so it was a great, grassy planar expanse rather than a largely empty void. He could've created non-entropying sources of energy - or created life so it required no such energy.

Your notions of the 'perfect' qualities all around us are laughable; you're getting things backwards. Life evolved to fit these conditions, the conditions weren't imposed to suit life. Our Earth is a great home for us, no doubt about it - but the assumption of a divine creator removes any boundaries. A 'perfect', magically designed ecosystem conjured by an all-powerful and all-loving deity would look far different than our current world does, however.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


Venomfangx
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To Zymotic

Greetings Zymotic,

 

Thank you for responding to my post. I will address your arguments in the order they were put:

 

1. Would they? Could you be more explanatory?

2. Tell me if I have it right. The central idea of biological evolution is that all life on earth shares a common ancestor. I have verified my definition on wikipedia and appear to be correct. Your second argument fails.

3. "Special pleading" this makes no sense.

4. I see you dismissed every other argument in my 4th critique.

5. I see you ignored this completely.

6. I have a youtube video explaining my how my name came to be. Browse my video's, educate yourself.


Venomfangx
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Hello

Yes Iruka, you were wrong.


ParanoidAgnostic
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Venomfangx wrote: 1. Does

Venomfangx wrote:

 

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Sorry but you have it backward. Life developed to suit the conditions on this planet not the other way around. We are on this planet because this one had the right environment for life, it doesn't have the right environment for life because it was intended for life.

When you consider it the right way around: life being the way it is because of the environment, not the planet being the way it is to suit this version of life, it isn't all that unlikely that the planet suits us so well.

Quote:

2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.

 

Complexity is not sufficient evidence of design. Look at a fractal one day, huge complexity created without design.

Quote:

3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.

It wasn't just one roll of the dice. For life to develop it was uncountable symultaneous rolls, not only all over this planet, but on countless other ones, repeated countless times. So you have an unimaginably huge number multiplied by an unimaginably huge number multiplied by an unimaginably huge number as the number of times life had a chance to get everything in the right place to start. That's ignoring the posibility of multiple universes because that would multiply it by an unimaginably huge number again. Each roll might have a spectacularly small chance of being successful but if you roll enough times you're likely to get a success eventually.

Quote:

4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.

Atheists are convinced that there is no God in the same way you're convinced that there are no unicorns or faries. The default position is unbelief.

Without evidence that there is a God the rational position is to believe that there isn't.

Quote:

5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

Anecdotal "evidence"

Sorry. That's not valid argument.

Quote:

6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.

You do realise that the bible isn't evidence for anyone who doesn't already believe Christianity?

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


MattShizzle
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Wow, what a dumb fuck! Epic

Wow, what a dumb fuck! Epic fail!


Venomfangx
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To Kevin

Greetings Kevin,

 

My signature will answer your first question.

As for the rest of your arguments you fail to answer other points in it as well.

"The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day."

 

Could life exist at all in the instances of the sun being further from the earth potentially freezing? Or close enough to burn? As I said the earth is at a perfect distance from the sun. Let me guess, you would answer this with "coincidence"?


You also did not argue these points I see. Your other arguments dont make any dents in mine. Evolution potentially  having us adapt to this does not excuse the fact that god did. Anyways, how about these?

 

"

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water."

 

As for "ParanoidAgnostic":

I wish St. Anselm and St. Thomas were still around so they could be utterly demolished by your fine proof against God's existence.  In fact, maybe we can dig up Plato and Aristotle, too, and you can teach something. How about you all stop being so angry?

 


Kevin R Brown
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Venom, I'd like a straight

Venom, I'd like a straight answer before we continue:

How old do you believe the Earth to be?


Venomfangx
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To Kevin

Hello Kevin,

 

I believe the earth is 6000 years old.


Jormungander
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I had such great fun

I had such great fun watching Venomfangx's videos on Youtube. I've seen four or five of them. Stealing Kent Hovind's arguments verbatim and even using his bizarre misunderstanding of evolution seems to be Venomfangx's main strategies.

On to the arguments:

1. If conditions were different, then things would be different. So that means the God that you believe in must exist. Nope, doesn't make too much sense to me.

Also: the moon used to be a lot closer the Earth then it currently is. Its current distance from us has no special meaning.

Mars is much smaller than the Earth, yet it has an atmosphere.

The mixture of gases in the atmosphere is created by living creatures. The atmosphere has changed its composition throughout the eons; in fact: if it weren't for cyanobacteria there wouldn't have been the initial increase in atmospheric oxygen. But then again, I recall you being a young earth creationist, so I suppose that you don't believe in there having been those bacteria so long ago.

Water reacts with chemicals. It can donate or receive hydrogens to form hydroxide or hydronium ions.

Also: what do all these things have to do with the possibility of there being a God?

2. No one claims that the brain came about by chance. As for an explanation of the human brain: it is a lizard's brain with a few extra regions that mammals have on top of that and a frontal lobe on top of that. It is clearly an evolved structure that shows its history in its structure. Do you really think we would accept a goddidit answer to anything?

3. Why yes, things do exist because of natural causes. Abiogenesis is a tricky subject, by bet is protocells or self-replicating polymers. So what does that have to do with whether or not your God exists? Even if science never found out how life started, that would not convince any atheists that goddidit.

4. You speak of a numerical likelihood: could you show me your calculations for this? I would like to see how one numerically determines the probability that "an intelligent mind is behind it all."

You speak of all those people throughout history believing in and holding a personal relationship with your God. What about all the people who have held personal relationships with and claim to have witnessed miracles from other gods? Think of all the Europeans throughout history who worshiped Wotan, Freja and Thor. Some claimed to have spoken to these deities and to have witnessed miracles from their Gods. Why should we discount all of their claims, but accept the claims of ancient Christians who believed in your God? Also: I didn't realize that religion was a popularity contest. If we really want to play that game: there are about 1.2 Billion Muslims who are certain that you are wrong. They too have a rich history of claims of answered prayers, miracles, and devout believers who were moved their faith in Allah. But then again: you think Allah is the devil don't you?

5. I have never attempted to refute your God, or any other gods. I merely await evidence of the existence of a god's or many gods' existence. Until such evidence is presented I must remain a non-believer. I have never felt any internal pressure to believe in a god, I suppose that is why I believe in none, and you believe in one.

6. Yes, Yeshua did claim to be God incarnate. But I don't trust the New Testament as factually accurate, so I don't put a lot of stock in his claims (or more precisely: the claims of those who wrote and edited to books of the New Testament). Yeshua's bold claims do not make me think he was correct: they just make me think the people who wrote the books of the New Testament made up bold claims and attributed them to Jesus after he died. Also: some (most?) people on this site doubt that Yeshua existed as a historical figure at all. The earliest references to him existing are found after his death and after the early cult following became widely known.

 

Just for fun: here is a link explaining Venomfangx's word-for-word plagiarism of Hovind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dipQo6k4t8Q

Here is the page he plagiarized his list off of:

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

Perhaps he should review the forum policies on plagiarism.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


Kevin R Brown
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Venom, would you care to

Smiling

Venom, would you care to present evidence that the Earth was specially created in six literal days 6,000 years ago.

 

Quote:

"The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day."

 

Could life exist at all in the instances of the sun being further from the earth potentially freezing? Or close enough to burn? As I said the earth is at a perfect distance from the sun. Let me guess, you would answer this with "coincidence"?


You also did not argue these points I see. Your other arguments dont make any dents in mine. Evolution potentially  having us adapt to this does not excuse the fact that god did. Anyways, how about these?

Venom, I did argue against your points. Stick your fingers in your ears and make 'la la' noises all you like; blissful ignorance is your own loss.

Again: God had control over every parameter. Every single thing. Are you saying that our Earth and universe is the very best (hence 'perfect') example of work your deity is capable of?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


Kevin R Brown
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Jormungander: To be fair,

Jormungander: To be fair, Hovind does advertise that people are allowed to copy and re-distribute his work.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Venomfangx wrote:Could life

Venomfangx wrote:

Could life exist at all in the instances of the sun being further from the earth potentially freezing? Or close enough to burn? As I said the earth is at a perfect distance from the sun. Let me guess, you would answer this with "coincidence"?

How many other planets are there in the universe? How many other chances were there for a planet that supports life as we know it?

Note I wrote "life as we know it." It's possible that in an environment that would make it impossible for "life as we know it" another form of life (simply being self-replicators, evolution will take care of the diversity and complexity after that) could develop and thrive.

Again this type of life is where it is because this is where the conditions were right for it and life is as it is because that's what works on this planet.

Quote:

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water."

Life as we know it uses water the way it does because those are the properties of water.

 

Most of your agument seems to rest on the faulty assumtions that this is the only planet that had a chance to develop life and that life as we know it is the only possible form of life.

Quote:

As for "ParanoidAgnostic":

I wish St. Anselm and St. Thomas were still around so they could be utterly demolished by your fine proof against God's existence.  In fact, maybe we can dig up Plato and Aristotle, too, and you can teach something. How about you all stop being so angry? 

I didn't offer any proof against God's existence. I simply stated why I don't need to. With no evidence either way the rational postion is to not accept an extraordinary claim.

Who's angry? I argue this for fun.

 

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


Kevin R Brown
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Quote:How many other planets

Quote:
How many other planets are there in the universe? How many other chances were there for a planet that supports life as we know it?

Psst. Agnostic.

 

He still thinks the universe is around 6,000 years old. It's not likely he believes that the universe is as large as science predicts. Smiling

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


ParanoidAgnostic
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Kevin R Brown wrote:Psst.

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Psst. Agnostic.

 

He still thinks the universe is around 6,000 years old. It's not likely he believes that the universe is as large as science predicts. Smiling

Oops sorry.

 

I made the mistake of assuming that I was arguing with someone who had regular contact with reality.

Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!


Jormungander
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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Jormungander: To be fair, Hovind does advertise that people are allowed to copy and re-distribute his work.

That doesn't excuse the first post of this thread though, which I am pretty sure violates our anti-plagiarism rules.

Let me do this again in case people got bored with my long post and skipped over it:

Venomfangx plagiarized the list that he presented in the opening post.

He stole it from Marylin Adamson. The list can be found here:

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

 

I recommend that before we respond to any future posts of his that we check it for plagiarism. For that matter, we should only be debating this list with Marylin Adamson, rather than the guy who plagiarized it from her.

 

Quote:

About the Author: As a former atheist, Marilyn Adamson found it difficult to refute the continuously answered prayers and quality of life of a close friend.

Apparently I should have presented my complaints of the list to this woman.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


Kevin R Brown
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Oh. Wow.  Sorry; you're

Oh. Wow.

 

Sorry; you're right. I thought he'd at least paraphrase. That was a straight-up copy & paste.

 

Venom, you've really learned nothing from your recent legal troubles, have you?

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


I AM GOD AS YOU
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Hey Venomfangx,  you dumb

Hey Venomfangx,  you dumb fuck , you satan idiot idol worshiper,

I am god, me as YOU,  just as the dirt is god, as all is one , as you and all is god.

SO  Fuck You, you separatist blind hypocrite moron enemy to heal .... All is one you jerk stupid ass. I am jesus, I am god .... I AM sick of your kind of retards. Wake the fuck up .... you fucking liars, idol worshipers, trouble makers .... You and yours fucking suck .... I must destroy your lies, and go smash the dogma church authority of blind hypocrites.

 .... and so the messy bible story, caring atheistic buddha Jesus called Peter Satan.


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THE VenomFangX? The idiot

THE VenomFangX? The idiot from Youtube that got nabbed for perjury?

Venomfangx wrote:
1. Does God exist?

Maybe.

Quote:
The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

No

Quote:
The Earth...its size is perfect...Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life. The Earth is located the right distance from the sun.

No, not "perfect," but it is good enough for us to live here. Your point is?

Quote:
Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it.

No living thing can survive without it? Hmmmm.

Quote:
You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life.

You mean life is suited to water?

Quote:
The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.

No.
 

Argument from incredulity?

Quote:
"Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.

Tsk tsk tsk. What do you know about evolution?

Quote:
But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else.

Cool, it's an ad hominem analogy. 

Quote:
What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago,

I'm surprised you didn't quote mine.

Quote:
science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life.

What do you know about science? Why is it, that whenever the inevitable advancement of science threatens some supernatural belief, religion simply labels it as "not science," as if this somehow dispels all evidence and research.   

Quote:
Where did human, animal, plant life come from?

An utopian magical garden formed by an omniscient, omnipotent entity.  

Quote:
Natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA.

No, but if you can provide a specific example for us to debunk, that would be nice. 

Quote:
A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause,

Cause of the variety of life? Evolution. Origin of Life. Probably some form of what is currently known as abiogenesis. Origin of universe? I don't know, but I don't see any reason why it must be a "God." If I was to join a religion, I would go to Utah and become a Mormon. Mormons tend to be really nice people. Also, I get to have multiple wives. 

Quote:
without design,

Oh, the horror. 

Quote:
and is merely good fortune.

We MUST be important, right?

Quote:
It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck.

The game MUST be rigged.

Quote:
To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.

And I do.

To state with certainly that there is a God, a person has to ignore the rational conclusions of an enormously vast number of people who know that there is almost definitely no Creator, and if there is, it is certainly not the God of Christianity.

Quote:
Scientists, for example, have discovered new truths about the universe which overruled previous conclusions.

Poor religious beliefs got run over. 

Quote:
But as science has progressed, no scientific discovery has countered the numerical likelihood of an intelligent mind being behind it all.

Quote:
There is a much larger issue. Throughout history, billions of people in the world have attested to their firm, core convictions about God's existence

Yup, God, Allah, Thor, Buddha, Santa Claus, Dragon King, Zeus,....... 

Quote:
Millions today could give detailed account of their experience with God.

I could give you a detailed account of my lack of experience with a God. 

Quote:
They would point to answered prayer and specific, amazing ways God has met their needs, and guided them through important personal decisions.

I really really don't have much respect for pathos. 

Quote:
They would offer, not only a description of their beliefs, but detailed reports of God's actions in their lives.

Yes, in fact, I've heard some of these "detailed reports" before. So far, they all seem to be bullshit.

Quote:
If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God"?

No, pantheism is always possible. Oh wait, you're talking about a personal God.

Well, then, my answer would be yes.  

If you are a believer, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and everyone else is wrong about God?"

Quote:
We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

Yeah, sure.

Quote:
What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?!

You got to be kidding me. You must have heard this argument refuted like 10 billion times already. Didn't you learn anything from Thunderf00t. 

Quote:
What causes us to do that?

Um, I like reality? I'm annoyed when people tell me I'm immoral and that I'm going to burn in hell. 

You don't believe in evolution, and you spend plenty of time and energy arguing against it. Why do you do that?  

Quote:
I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

Aw, you poor insecure, emotional boy. 

Quote:
I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue.

I didn't consider myself an atheist until I was about 8 years old. I didn't consider myself an agnostic until I was, like, 15. I grew up in a secular household.

God doesn't press the issue. Other humans press the issue against us. Then, we press it against ourselves.  

Quote:
I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.

Applause.

Quote:
Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.

You might want to start by proving that Jesus existed. 

Quote:
None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did.
 

Link to a blasphemous video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQLD59fK_Iw

Avoid your arguments? Eh, you don't have very much. But, typically, the Creationists are the ones that avoid the arguments. Especially the ones that hit and run.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Venomfangx wrote:I believe

Venomfangx wrote:

I believe the earth is 6000 years old.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Jormungander wrote:Kevin R

Jormungander wrote:

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Jormungander: To be fair, Hovind does advertise that people are allowed to copy and re-distribute his work.

That doesn't excuse the first post of this thread though, which I am pretty sure violates our anti-plagiarism rules.

Let me do this again in case people got bored with my long post and skipped over it:

Venomfangx plagiarized the list that he presented in the opening post.

He stole it from Marylin Adamson. The list can be found here:

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

 

I recommend that before we respond to any future posts of his that we check it for plagiarism. For that matter, we should only be debating this list with Marylin Adamson, rather than the guy who plagiarized it from her.

 

Quote:

About the Author: As a former atheist, Marilyn Adamson found it difficult to refute the continuously answered prayers and quality of life of a close friend.

Apparently I should have presented my complaints of the list to this woman.

Well, I'm late to the party but at least I've already got a couple of rum & cokes under my belt....

As I read the OP I knew I'd seen it somewhere before and as I worked my way down the thread I kept thinking I was going to check on it's origins/originality. Great catch Jormungander.

As to the OP and Mr. Apologetics, 


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Dear VenomfangX.I'm glad you

Dear VenomfangX.

I'm glad you came here.

I can understand your frustration and fear. You are rightfully worried about the fact that you can't bring yourself to believe falsehoods about the universe.

You know as well as I and everyone else that when you die you cease to be, because it is as obvious as the innate knowledge in us all that we weren't in existance before we were born.

And yet, you have grown up in a society surrounded by people who, on the surface, claimed to know alot of stuff about the universe, that stands in direct opposition to your innate knowledge that you, me, the dog, the snake, and the tree are all life in exactly the same way: we live, we reproduce, we die.

You have been told that we are speciel, and that we are eternal, even when this is self-evidently not the case.

But when people you trust and love are saying such things with such apparent conviction, one becomes very doubtful and fearful about what reality is.

You have spent a great deal of your youth looking for explanations, so that you might come to terms with your doubts and trepedations, but in that process you have been shown time and time again, that these explanations have been based on honest misunderstandings, false assumptions, and, in some cases, outright lies.

How did you feel when Hovind was convicted of tax-fraud? When this man, in whom you had put so much trust, upon whose arguments you had based so much of your understanding of reality, turned out to be a self-rightious, immoral charlatan?

Did you feel the need to quickly construct an explanation in your mind, in which a conspiracy of nefarious deamons and deamonworshippers made sure that an otherwise good and honest man was falsely convicted of a crime?

Don't feel ashamed. That's a very common reaction. Our vanity can only take so much, and that goes for all of us.

But reality is pursuing you my friend, as it pursues all of us every moment of every day. You are so clearly rebelling against the truth, because you allready know it, somewhere deep down inside.

The main reason you will have to doubt reality is surely that you know some people that appear to "know" God in a way that you have never been able to, and these are people that you love and admire (maybe your parents, or your pastor, or close friends). And they may appear to you to have no need to seek out the many "scientific" explanations, and semantic arguments that you clearly are so almost obsessed by.

But believe me when I say it is not that they know things better than you. People are just different, and some people will not worry too much about explaining reality as others: they just accept it. When everyone around them are Christian, then so are they, and they just take it all for granted, without giving it any further thought.

Believe me, many people here in Denmark where I live, just take their lack of religion for granted, they don't think twice about it.

But the fact that you are different, and that you need to explain your reality to yourself, doesn't make you worse off than them. You just have a more inquisitive mindset, and that can be a very good thing.

Indeed, if you come to accept reality for what it is, you may be the perfect person to make some of these people realize how they are wrong. Because reality is pursuing them too, but since they don't have the same drive for explanation as you, they haven't the tools to meet that reality. They just incorporate it into their lives without noticing it, like you probably would.

When they fear dearh, or lust for sex, or become angry or violent, they don't realize that this is going against their religious world-view, because they don't put it through the same logical examination that you constantly feel the need to. And that's the only reason that they appear at ease with their faith to you: because they don't think about their delusion, they just live it.

You, however, go to great lengths to explain your delusional convictions, and this is both a good thing, and a bad thing.

Everytime Thunderfoot has shown you reality, you have known perfectly well that he was right, because it is not something you choose to believe, it is self-evident. So you are constantly expossing yourself to the truth, which doesn't happen for most people who live in a completely religious society, and that is good.

But what is bad about it is, that you need to explain your delusions to yourself with increasingly outragious and paranoid arguments (the devil, the illuminati, the Atheist conspiracy and their alien overlords et.c. are clouding the truth), which puts you in danger of developing a serious mental ilness.

Most people in your social circle probably think that everyone in the world knows God exists, and that there are just a few people here or there who are crazily rebelling against God. Without expossing themselves to evidence to the contrary, they are actually holding a fairly reasonable position in that. Reality pursues them too, but they generally manage to let it slip into their lives, and then cherry-pick their religious convictions after the fact.

You, however, know perfectly well, from all the truth you have exposed yourself to, that it is you who are holding the untenable, truth-defying position.

And so you have only two directions to go: you can turn away from your delusion completely, or you can dive head first into full blown paranoid scitzofrenia.

I sincerly hope you will do the former, because I truly hold no ill will against you, and I know you have it in you to face reality: you are still young, and you have ample time to grow wiser with age.

Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin


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Venom, even though you're

Venom, even though you're wrong about everything there is to be wrong about, I still think you're cool! Rock on!!!

Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first.


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Venomfangx wrote:Rather than

Venomfangx wrote:

Rather than approach atheists in the same way by religious propaganda and biblical quotations I will take a less dismissing approach that you atheists love arguing. Science, and reason. I will present 6 arguments below and challenge any atheist here to them. Let's begin.

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6

2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information... did it come about just by chance? Was it merely biological causes, perfectly forming the right tissue, blood flow, neurons, structure? The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people. How does one explain the human brain?

3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.

The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. If someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?

Also, natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA. A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause, without design, and is merely good fortune. It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck.

4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.

This is not to say that if enough people believe something it is therefore true. Scientists, for example, have discovered new truths about the universe which overruled previous conclusions. But as science has progressed, no scientific discovery has countered the numerical likelihood of an intelligent mind being behind it all. In fact, the more science discovers about human life and the universe, the more complex and precisely designed we realize these to be. Rather than pointing away from God, evidence mounts further toward an intelligent source. But objective evidence is not all.

There is a much larger issue. Throughout history, billions of people in the world have attested to their firm, core convictions about God's existence -- arrived at from their subjective, personal relationship with God. Millions today could give detailed account of their experience with God. They would point to answered prayer and specific, amazing ways God has met their needs, and guided them through important personal decisions. They would offer, not only a description of their beliefs, but detailed reports of God's actions in their lives. Many are sure that a loving God exists and has shown himself to be faithful to them. If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God"?

5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

I was an atheist at one time. And like most atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.

I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."

Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.

6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.

Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.

He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."8 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."

Please do not try to dodge my arguments like many I have seen do before with "anything we give you wont accept anyways" Your ineptness will only make greater the christian cause.

 

ray, is that you???

didn't he say he was only going to use "science and reason" and not resort to biblical "propaganda"?  yet look at the end of his post.  this looks familiar...

how much you wanna bet he won't come back?

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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Nikolaj wrote:Dear

Nikolaj wrote:

Dear VenomfangX.

I'm glad you came here.

I can understand your frustration and fear. You are rightfully worried about the fact that you can't bring yourself to believe falsehoods about the universe.

You know as well as I and everyone else that when you die you cease to be, because it is as obvious as the innate knowledge in us all that we weren't in existance before we were born.

And yet, you have grown up in a society surrounded by people who, on the surface, claimed to know alot of stuff about the universe, that stands in direct opposition to your innate knowledge that you, me, the dog, the snake, and the tree are all life in exactly the same way: we live, we reproduce, we die.

You have been told that we are speciel, and that we are eternal, even when this is self-evidently not the case.

But when people you trust and love are saying such things with such apparent conviction, one becomes very doubtful and fearful about what reality is.

You have spent a great deal of your youth looking for explanations, so that you might come to terms with your doubts and trepedations, but in that process you have been shown time and time again, that these explanations have been based on honest misunderstandings, false assumptions, and, in some cases, outright lies.

How did you feel when Hovind was convicted of tax-fraud? When this man, in whom you had put so much trust, upon whose arguments you had based so much of your understanding of reality, turned out to be a self-rightious, immoral charlatan?

Did you feel the need to quickly construct an explanation in your mind, in which a conspiracy of nefarious deamons and deamonworshippers made sure that an otherwise good and honest man was falsely convicted of a crime?

Don't feel ashamed. That's a very common reaction. Our vanity can only take so much, and that goes for all of us.

But reality is pursuing you my friend, as it pursues all of us every moment of every day. You are so clearly rebelling against the truth, because you allready know it, somewhere deep down inside.

The main reason you will have to doubt reality is surely that you know some people that appear to "know" God in a way that you have never been able to, and these are people that you love and admire (maybe your parents, or your pastor, or close friends). And they may appear to you to have no need to seek out the many "scientific" explanations, and semantic arguments that you clearly are so almost obsessed by.

But believe me when I say it is not that they know things better than you. People are just different, and some people will not worry too much about explaining reality as others: they just accept it. When everyone around them are Christian, then so are they, and they just take it all for granted, without giving it any further thought.

Believe me, many people here in Denmark where I live, just take their lack of religion for granted, they don't think twice about it.

But the fact that you are different, and that you need to explain your reality to yourself, doesn't make you worse off than them. You just have a more inquisitive mindset, and that can be a very good thing.

Indeed, if you come to accept reality for what it is, you may be the perfect person to make some of these people realize how they are wrong. Because reality is pursuing them too, but since they don't have the same drive for explanation as you, they haven't the tools to meet that reality. They just incorporate it into their lives without noticing it, like you probably would.

When they fear dearh, or lust for sex, or become angry or violent, they don't realize that this is going against their religious world-view, because they don't put it through the same logical examination that you constantly feel the need to. And that's the only reason that they appear at ease with their faith to you: because they don't think about their delusion, they just live it.

You, however, go to great lengths to explain your delusional convictions, and this is both a good thing, and a bad thing.

Everytime Thunderfoot has shown you reality, you have known perfectly well that he was right, because it is not something you choose to believe, it is self-evident. So you are constantly expossing yourself to the truth, which doesn't happen for most people who live in a completely religious society, and that is good.

But what is bad about it is, that you need to explain your delusions to yourself with increasingly outragious and paranoid arguments (the devil, the illuminati, the Atheist conspiracy and their alien overlords et.c. are clouding the truth), which puts you in danger of developing a serious mental ilness.

Most people in your social circle probably think that everyone in the world knows God exists, and that there are just a few people here or there who are crazily rebelling against God. Without expossing themselves to evidence to the contrary, they are actually holding a fairly reasonable position in that. Reality pursues them too, but they generally manage to let it slip into their lives, and then cherry-pick their religious convictions after the fact.

You, however, know perfectly well, from all the truth you have exposed yourself to, that it is you who are holding the untenable, truth-defying position.

And so you have only two directions to go: you can turn away from your delusion completely, or you can dive head first into full blown paranoid scitzofrenia.

I sincerly hope you will do the former, because I truly hold no ill will against you, and I know you have it in you to face reality: you are still young, and you have ample time to grow wiser with age.

Nikolaj,

That was one of the best posts I've read on this site in a long time.  You really seem to understand the mind of a theist.  Are you sure you weren't a theist in a past life?

WWSD - What Would Scooby Doo?


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Venomfangx wrote: 1. Does

Venomfangx wrote:

 

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.

3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.

1. The probability of any entity's existence or event's occurrence can be calculated.

2. The more complex an entity or event, the less probable is its existence or occurrence.

3. God is commonly defined as a being possessing infinite attributes. Alternatively, a creator God must possess more power (or structured energy, ie, low- or zero-entropy energy) than the universe.

4. Any God possessing infinite attributes is necessarily infinite complex. A God with the power to make a bush burn without consuming it is necessarily more complex than a God without that power, or a mortal without that power. Similarly, a God with more power than is available in the universe is more complex than the universe.

5. Therefore, a God possessing infinite attributes is infinitely unlikely.  A God possessing the power to create the universe is proportionally more improbable than the universe.

6. Therefore, infinite Gods do not exist and creator Gods are even more unlikely than a universe without one.

Yay! I've been waiting to use the Proof from Probability for months now.

 

Religion is a virus.
Fight the infection.


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JoeyJoJoJr wrote: Are you

JoeyJoJoJr wrote:
Are you sure you weren't a theist in a past life?
Haha

Clever Smiling

Well I'm sure I was never a theist in this life, so...

 

Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin


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If god is real, he/she/it is

If god is real, he/she/it is a horrible designer and should be fired.


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Venomfangx wrote:Rather than

Venomfangx wrote:

Rather than approach atheists in the same way by religious propaganda and biblical quotations I will take a less dismissing approach that you atheists love arguing. Science, and reason. I will present 6 arguments below and challenge any atheist here to them. Let's begin.

Hrm. I thought you said you were going to try science and reason? What happened to that idea?

Oh, well. I'll work with the unscientific and poorly-reasoned arguments you present.

Quote:

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

Man, it's a good thing fish don't live on land! They'd never survive outside the water. It's lucky for all those extremophiles that sulfuric vents exist on the ocean floors, or they'd never survive. It's a good thing for us that plants exist, or there'd be no free oxygen in the atmosphere, and we'd all suffocate.

Quote:

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

Earth doesn't rotate around the sun; it revolves around the sun. It rotates about its axis (which, thankfully, you managed to get right).

Just imagine if the earth didn't rotate as it does; our day/night cycles wouldn't work with our 24-hour clock!

As far as the misconception that we're at the exact right distance, you are only partly correct. We're at a good distance for the type of planet we live on. However, that distance could vary quite a bit, in relative terms. And, right now, there are jovians writing dirty limericks praising their God for the foresight to put their world at exactly the right distance from the sun, with exactly the right composition of chemicals at the elevation at which they live.

Quote:

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents by the moon? That's funny; I always thought it was their elevation above sea level.

It's this word "perfect" you keep using. You seem to think that a few kilometers distance either way would destroy the conditions for life on earth. That's utter bullshit. If things were different, life would be different. Just like the extremophiles buried in Antarctic ice, or living in volcanic vents on the ocean floor, life can exist in a wide, wide variety of environments. Just because you couldn't exist, you think the combination is special?

That's ridiculous. That's like saying God exists because your father fucked your mother, and about nine months later you sprang from her bleeding vagina.

Quote:

2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.

 

This is a rather bald assertion. It doesn't even have a toupee. It just says, "I can't understand how the brain can exist, so God did it."

If the brain requires a higher intelligence, and that intelligence belongs to God, then God's higher intelligence must have required an even higher intelligence. That is, if intelligence requires something more intelligent to create it, then that argument applies to God even more than to man, as his intelligence is even greater than man's.

Quote:

3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.

The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. If someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?

Also, natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA. A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause, without design, and is merely good fortune. It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck.

This argument shows a distinct misunderstanding of both evolution, and of stochastic processes in general. You conflate "cause" with "design," as if they are the same thing; they are not.

Also, "random chance" is only one of many inputs. Considering that all processes are defined by their interactions, and not their inputs, "random chance" isn't even a defining element. Why theists focus on random chance so much is beyond me. It's like going to a Pete Yorn concert and focussing on the top 'E' string.

Quote:

4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.

I get it! God's existence is a popularity contest. And I had it all wrong! Here I thought that knowledge was to be gained through observation and reason.

Quote:

5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

I was an atheist at one time. And like most atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that?

Becuase theists can't leave well enough alone? Because they wish to teach our children stupid shit like, "We know God exists because her pursues us?" Because they help determine the environment in which I live, generally in a very negative fashion?

Quote:

6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.

Yeah. I keep hearing this, but I see this as special pleading. "My belief is correct, because it is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us." This assertion is completely unsupportable. Muslims will say the same thing. Buddhists (to the extent that Buddhism is theistic) will say the same thing. Basically, every religion claims to be the correct one.

Your assertion that the Bible is somehow clearer, or more concrete, or more coherent than the Baghavad Gita is completely based on your desire to believe the One True Faith. In fact, as every religion claims to be the One True Faith, you have no better claim than those following the Book of the Dead.

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Please do not try to dodge my arguments like many I have seen do before with "anything we give you wont accept anyways" Your ineptness will only make greater the christian cause.

I won't try to dodge them, as long as you don't try to dodge the responses. Deal?

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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The argument about the Earth

The argument about the Earth having just the right distance from the sun and other attributes which make it uniquely suitable for life is one of the oldest fallacies in the book, even less arguable today with the recent discoveries of just how common planets are.

Due to the chaotic and contingent nature of the processes of galactic, stellar and planetary formation, there are going to be trillions of planets with attributes all over the place, so it would be a true 'miracle' if there was no planet in the Universe 'just right' for the emergence of life as we know it, and obviously that's the one we emerged on....

The original argument has something in common with the winner of a lottery with a million tickets marvelling at his win against odds of a million to one. The point is, someone was definitely going to win.

That anyone would seriously put forward this argument tells us a lot about the lack of real understanding about these issues and the logic involved.

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 1. There are ~400 billion

 1. There are ~400 billion stars just in our galaxy. No matter how small the odds are sooner or later one planet will be just perfect for humans. Not to say, that if earth was different life couldn't evolve here. I mean, life adapts, not environment. So i don't see any reason why other forms of life couldn't use other form of energy, instead of oxygen.

 

2. Once again - massive numbers. It took millions of years for evolution to produce our brains.

 

3. Well I don't want to blame him, but I don't think he had proper tools, more exact - millions and billions of years.

 

4. Well I tryed to understand religion and final conclusion is, that it is some kind of failsafe mechanism. For some people a thought of purposless existance is psichologicly unbearable. It helps to deal with reality. Wishful thinking helps a lot to give credit to god for accidental fortunate events.

 

5. I want to change people just because I'd like for world to be a better place. For everything else look #4.

 

6. So if I'd claim to be a god you would believe me?


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Good Bob Spence. So that I

Good Bob Spence. So that I don't have to clog these boards in the future with my appreciation and thanks .... you are gifted with your helpful words and tasty digestible summations, which I often email to my fat list.

No need to reply .... stay wise , don't work "too" hard.   


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I love the "designer"

I love the "designer" argument. When you call them on it is like watching cockroaches scatter when you turn on the lights.

Ok, lets for argument's sake that everything was designed, does that include anthrax, ecoli, cancer, pedeophilia?

"FALL OF MAN" is the mantra response.

Fine, God punishes every future generation because Adam got a woodie because he ate a magical apple a talking snake (WHICH GOD ALLOWED). Ok, fine, we can assume this absurdity for model purposes.

But, what of babies born today, what of 5 year old's or 6 year old's who starve to death in Africa, or a 7 year old who dies from cancer, or the 12 year old who gets rapped and buried? So because Adam fucked up these  children born today deserve to suffer? If they don't AND THEY DON'T, then why wont god stop it?

Out of all the cruelty in the world, the cruelty to kids under the watch of an all seeing all powerful being(so the theist claims) you would think it wouldn't happen at all. I know if I were a god, children would not be harmed by other humans or die from horrible diseases or war or starvation.

SO, without a god, why do these things happen? Because bad, just like good, is part of nature. We don't assign a Thor to being the cause of cancer. We don't blame S.I.D.S. on Lex Luthor.

Bad in life happens, not because we want it to happen, but because it does. Trying to explain it away via comic book hero's vs villians , wont lead to cures for cancer. It wont find ways to catch sickos who rape kids.

NATURE to the theist is a mythological word, where nothing bad happens and if it does it is "unnatural".

NATURE, to the scientist is that which repeats and can be studied. Cancer is not studied by praying to Isis and pedeophiles are caught by criminologists and psychologists and profilers.

BUT if one wants to argue that there is a fictional Security Guard in the sky. The only conclusion I can come up with is that this asshole has fallen asleep at the switch, or doesn't care and isn't worth worshiping, or is not "all powerful".

MIND YOU, TO ALL READING THIS, this is NOT aimed at all Christians or any one religion. It is aimed at all who claim an all powerful god by any name. The concept fails tremendously not only on the scientific scale but also on the moral scale.

 

 

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Wow, VenomFangX!It's an

Wow, VenomFangX!

It's an honor to have you here! I love your and Thunderf00t's series on YouTube. I know you're an atheist under disguise just helping to expose Hovind's bullshit by making those videos. All I wanted to say is THANK YOU! I'm a big fan. FSM bless!


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 VenomFangX, if this is

 

VenomFangX,

if this is you:

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Uh. Really? VenomFangX?

 

Like, this VenomFangX? :

 

 

 

Ergo, this is not you:

Marilyn Adamson

I strongly suggest you do more than seek legal advice, get an education; and consider counselling too, pathological lying, is not exactly indicative of a well adjusted mind.

Yes, I know, "everybody* lies on the internet", but you have had the reach of the intellectual property law well and truly demonstrated to you by your youtube experience, it needs to have sunk in with you that limits apply as to how much bullshit you can spin without crossing the fair rights of others, even here on the web, but it would appear, if you are not Ms Adamson, that it hasn't sunk in at all. I can only recommend you do something to change your ways before you regret the shitstorm you will make for yourself.

 

 

*I apologise in advance for any offense this may cause, I actually suspect most everyone in the core community here is pretty honest, but I also suspect that people like VenomfangX believe we're all masquerading so I've written this as an appeal to his sensibilities, hope I didn't hurt yours.

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The earth

How much does the distance between the earth and the sun have to change, how many miles before life becomes unsustainable as we know it? I mean life can survive at -50 celcius, heck it live at less than that -75 in the antartic and artic areas. As well it can live in extremely hot conditions, some locations like death valley gets to be 120 F in the shade and yet life can survive there. So the questions is, if you are so smart about this and so sure, how much of a distance? Just for your knowledge the exact distance of the earth to the sun is probably the least critical of all the requirements for life.

Oh and the distance right now varies some 3 million miles as it orbits the sun. So please how much distance does it require?


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:Hey

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

Hey Venomfangx,  you dumb fuck , you satan idiot idol worshiper,

I am god, me as YOU,  just as the dirt is god, as all is one , as you and all is god.

SO  Fuck You, you separatist blind hypocrite moron enemy to heal .... All is one you jerk stupid ass. I am jesus, I am god .... I AM sick of your kind of retards. Wake the fuck up .... you fucking liars, idol worshipers, trouble makers .... You and yours fucking suck .... I must destroy your lies, and go smash the dogma church authority of blind hypocrites.

 .... and so the messy bible story, caring atheistic buddha Jesus called Peter Satan.

Damn, venomfangx, it takes a lot to get IAGAY this worked up.  I gotta hand it to you.  You really are a uniquely ignorant fool, and now we have proof.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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I was going to write a short

I was going to write a short refutation, but a few things are stopping me. 1 I'm typing with a PS3 paddle, 2 there's absolutely nothing new here, 3 it's already been destroyed, and 4 it's plagiarized. Pathetic.

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Oh, this is that retard with

Oh, this is that retard with all those stupid videos on YouTube. You probably shouldn't use any 2 syllable words with him. Ladies and Gentlemen, we have someone here who actually thinks the Earth is 6000 years old. I have 1 question:

Explain the cave paintings found that are much older than that. Were they painted before the Earth existed? Please explain how if this is the case.

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      LOL Hamby, but I

      LOL Hamby, but I must remind you all, "lucky me" most always giggles as I write. RRS is a "saving" blast .... It's alot of fun being god and playing the atheistic 'character' buddha jesus.   


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Venomfangx wrote:Yes Iruka,

Venomfangx wrote:

Yes Iruka, you were wrong.

No, I don't think so. Pineapple is playing you. 

She may be a theist, but she isn't ignorant enough to buy into Creationism or Intelligent Design.  We clash, sure, but Cpt_Pineapple isn't a complete moron...unless she's changed her beliefs since I last saw her.

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JoeyJoJoJr wrote:Nikolaj

JoeyJoJoJr wrote:

Nikolaj wrote:

Dear VenomfangX.

I'm glad you came here.

I can understand your frustration and fear. You are rightfully worried about the fact that you can't bring yourself to believe falsehoods about the universe.

You know as well as I and everyone else that when you die you cease to be, because it is as obvious as the innate knowledge in us all that we weren't in existance before we were born.

And yet, you have grown up in a society surrounded by people who, on the surface, claimed to know alot of stuff about the universe, that stands in direct opposition to your innate knowledge that you, me, the dog, the snake, and the tree are all life in exactly the same way: we live, we reproduce, we die.

You have been told that we are speciel, and that we are eternal, even when this is self-evidently not the case.

But when people you trust and love are saying such things with such apparent conviction, one becomes very doubtful and fearful about what reality is.

You have spent a great deal of your youth looking for explanations, so that you might come to terms with your doubts and trepedations, but in that process you have been shown time and time again, that these explanations have been based on honest misunderstandings, false assumptions, and, in some cases, outright lies.

How did you feel when Hovind was convicted of tax-fraud? When this man, in whom you had put so much trust, upon whose arguments you had based so much of your understanding of reality, turned out to be a self-rightious, immoral charlatan?

Did you feel the need to quickly construct an explanation in your mind, in which a conspiracy of nefarious deamons and deamonworshippers made sure that an otherwise good and honest man was falsely convicted of a crime?

Don't feel ashamed. That's a very common reaction. Our vanity can only take so much, and that goes for all of us.

But reality is pursuing you my friend, as it pursues all of us every moment of every day. You are so clearly rebelling against the truth, because you allready know it, somewhere deep down inside.

The main reason you will have to doubt reality is surely that you know some people that appear to "know" God in a way that you have never been able to, and these are people that you love and admire (maybe your parents, or your pastor, or close friends). And they may appear to you to have no need to seek out the many "scientific" explanations, and semantic arguments that you clearly are so almost obsessed by.

But believe me when I say it is not that they know things better than you. People are just different, and some people will not worry too much about explaining reality as others: they just accept it. When everyone around them are Christian, then so are they, and they just take it all for granted, without giving it any further thought.

Believe me, many people here in Denmark where I live, just take their lack of religion for granted, they don't think twice about it.

But the fact that you are different, and that you need to explain your reality to yourself, doesn't make you worse off than them. You just have a more inquisitive mindset, and that can be a very good thing.

Indeed, if you come to accept reality for what it is, you may be the perfect person to make some of these people realize how they are wrong. Because reality is pursuing them too, but since they don't have the same drive for explanation as you, they haven't the tools to meet that reality. They just incorporate it into their lives without noticing it, like you probably would.

When they fear dearh, or lust for sex, or become angry or violent, they don't realize that this is going against their religious world-view, because they don't put it through the same logical examination that you constantly feel the need to. And that's the only reason that they appear at ease with their faith to you: because they don't think about their delusion, they just live it.

You, however, go to great lengths to explain your delusional convictions, and this is both a good thing, and a bad thing.

Everytime Thunderfoot has shown you reality, you have known perfectly well that he was right, because it is not something you choose to believe, it is self-evident. So you are constantly expossing yourself to the truth, which doesn't happen for most people who live in a completely religious society, and that is good.

But what is bad about it is, that you need to explain your delusions to yourself with increasingly outragious and paranoid arguments (the devil, the illuminati, the Atheist conspiracy and their alien overlords et.c. are clouding the truth), which puts you in danger of developing a serious mental ilness.

Most people in your social circle probably think that everyone in the world knows God exists, and that there are just a few people here or there who are crazily rebelling against God. Without expossing themselves to evidence to the contrary, they are actually holding a fairly reasonable position in that. Reality pursues them too, but they generally manage to let it slip into their lives, and then cherry-pick their religious convictions after the fact.

You, however, know perfectly well, from all the truth you have exposed yourself to, that it is you who are holding the untenable, truth-defying position.

And so you have only two directions to go: you can turn away from your delusion completely, or you can dive head first into full blown paranoid scitzofrenia.

I sincerly hope you will do the former, because I truly hold no ill will against you, and I know you have it in you to face reality: you are still young, and you have ample time to grow wiser with age.

Nikolaj,

That was one of the best posts I've read on this site in a long time.  You really seem to understand the mind of a theist.  Are you sure you weren't a theist in a past life?

I was thinking the same thing.  I used to be a fundamentalist Christian who believed the earth was only 6000 years old.  I basically lived in a fundy bubble until I was 18, but once I started looking at the facts, my faith crumbled.  Fear of death was the last hurdle I had to face.  If you've been spoon-fed life-after-death lies your whole life, it is terrifying to admit to yourself that when you die, you die.  That's it.  Movie over; fade to black.

The "let's all stick our fingers in our ears and pretend we never die" meme is the main reason people cling to religion.

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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:   

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

      LOL Hamby, but I must remind you all, "lucky me" most always giggles as I write. RRS is a "saving" blast .... It's alot of fun being god and playing the atheistic 'character' buddha jesus.   

If nothing else, you give me a lot of laughs IAGAY. Smiling  May you be with you and all that.

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MattShizzle wrote: Explain

MattShizzle wrote:

Explain the cave paintings found that are much older than that. Were they painted before the Earth existed? Please explain how if this is the case.

Haha, yeah, that's a good one.

What about the fact that the light from distant stars takes longer than 6,500 years to get here?

There are plants older than 6,500 years old. What about those?

Radiometric dating?

Formation of Grand Canyon? Himalayas?

Evolution?

(Arrg stupid video.)

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Iruka Naminori , I have

Iruka Naminori , I have always adored you ... really. I luv ya sister.    


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butterbattle

butterbattle wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:

Explain the cave paintings found that are much older than that. Were they painted before the Earth existed? Please explain how if this is the case.

Haha, yeah, that's a good one.

What about the fact that the light from distant stars takes longer than 6,500 years to get here?

There are plants older than 6,500 years old. What about those?

Radiometric dating?

Formation of Grand Canyon? Himalayas?

Evolution?

(Arrg stupid video.)

People the devil did it to trick you, so that you would not have faith in god....or something along those lines, it's a test from god to see if your faith is true...pick some massively irrational idea and then use that as a reason why these things contradict YEC ideas to so called proofs or claims.