"Inherent Value": Is there such a thing?

RhadTheGizmo
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"Inherent Value": Is there such a thing?

 So.. I was listening to NPR on my way back from some errands, and it got me thinking.  Do you believe that things have "inherent" value?  If you do, please define what you mean by inherent value, and say why you believe there is such.

If you do not believe there is such a thing, then what do you base ascertain value on?


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not this shit again.

you must be new here.


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Let's cut to the chase,

Let's cut to the chase, Rhad, what value does your God have that you or others have not ascribed to it?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Value is always relative.The

Value is always relative.

The value of food is relative to those who will eat it. The value of knowledge is limited to those who can make use of it. The value of money is limited to those who have it.

The value of our earth is limited to us.

There's nothing intrinsic about "value." It's entirely subjective. "Value" is not even well-defined.

 

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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As per money, if our economy

As per money, if our economy or civilization collapsed, our money would be nearly worthless (circulated coins aren't made of valuable metal and paper money wouldn't even make good scratch or toilet paper. )

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Happiness might be

Happiness might be considered an inherent value.

Since you asked for a definition of what I mean by "inherent value", I mean happiness is something sought as an end in itself and not as a means to an end.


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RhadTheGizmo wrote:Do you

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

Do you believe that things have "inherent" value?  If you do, please define what you mean by inherent value, and say why you believe there is such.

Um, maybe YOU should define what YOU mean by inherent value first so that I can actually answer the question. 

If, by inherent value, you mean "not dictated by an all-powerful, personal God," then I would say that virtually everything has inherent value. Certainly, everything has "value." Oh, we need to define that too, don't we?

RhadTheGizmo wrote:
If you do not believe there is such a thing, then what do you base ascertain value on?

Itchy the Flying Monkey

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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 Geez.  What's with all

 Geez.  What's with all the new people jumping on ole' Rhad?

(1) I'm not new here.

(2) God adds nothing that he does not add.

(3) "Inherent values" means, at least my definition, "something that has value in and of itself, without need of more proof." Cf. Social value, personal value.

(4) Yes, "value" would need to be defined, I suppose.  See "worth" or "of importance."

(5) I see nothing wrong, i.e., nothing inconsistent about, the idea of "relative worth," i.e., "there is only personal value." (Personal value, def., for the purpose of this post, the value that I myself place on an object in relation to me).

//

In closing.  Stop trying to get to ahead the game and "guessing" where I'm going.  I'm just trying to understand the way other people think, question any apparent inconsistencies to see if they are inconsistent, or if they are not.

Sincerely,

RtG


RhadTheGizmo
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nigelTheBold wrote:Value is

nigelTheBold wrote:

Value is always relative.

The value of food is relative to those who will eat it. The value of knowledge is limited to those who can make use of it. The value of money is limited to those who have it.

The value of our earth is limited to us.

There's nothing intrinsic about "value." It's entirely subjective. "Value" is not even well-defined.

 

 

Agreed


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MattShizzle wrote:As per

MattShizzle wrote:

As per money, if our economy or civilization collapsed, our money would be nearly worthless (circulated coins aren't made of valuable metal and paper money wouldn't even make good scratch or toilet paper. )

Agreed.


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RhadTheGizmo wrote:...(3)

RhadTheGizmo wrote:
...

(3) "Inherent values" means, at least my definition, "something that has value in and of itself, without need of more proof." Cf. Social value, personal value...

This still leaves me a little unclear on what your definition is. You seem to be defining intrinsic as is normally understood ('value in and of itself') but when you say to contrast your definition with "Social value, personal value...", you sound more like you intend "intrinsic" to mean absolute.

But I don't see why a value could not be both intrinsic and relative where intrinsic can mean intrinsic for the individual.


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Quote:But I don't see why a

Quote:
But I don't see why a value could not be both intrinsic and relative where intrinsic can mean intrinsic for the individual.

"Inherent," "intrinsic," could be used to refer to "the universally absolute," this does not mean they cannot be used to mean "the personally absolute" as well.  I do think, however, that if "inherent" or "intrinsic" is to have have meaning.. it must entail an "absolute."

Whether that "absolute" is thought of only in the personal sense or in a universal one.. depends on the person and how he views it. 

I thought it important to compare it with the other two for this very reason; because sometimes one can say something has "inherent value," in the absolute sense, yet still little "personal value."

For instance, while I may say all conscious beings have inherent value, I would still save my friend from drowning over the serial killer, even though though the serial killer might have been easier to save.

 

 


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RhadTheGizmo wrote:(2) God

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

(2) God adds nothing that he does not add.

 

And you know this how? Talking to yourself again?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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RhadTheGizmo wrote: Geez.

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

 Geez.  What's with all the new people jumping on ole' Rhad?(1) I'm not new here.

With over a thousand posts, I'd say not!

 

RhadTheGizmo wrote:
(2) God adds nothing that he does not add.

Sing there's no addition like show addition, like no addition I know.

 

RhadTheGizmo wrote:
(3) "Inherent values" means, at least my definition, "something that has value in and of itself, without need of more proof." Cf. Social value, personal value.

Cue the almighty muzak next boys, I hear an Argument from ____ comin!

 

RhadTheGizmo wrote:
(I see nothing wrong, i.e., nothing inconsistent about, the idea of "relative worth," i.e., "there is only personal value." (Personal value, def., for the purpose of this post, the value that I myself place on an object in relation to me).

Exactly.... and that is why I have accepted the great master Wonko the Magic Elf as my lord and saviour. Go ahead... scoff you pathetic unbeliever. Wonko has inherent value, Wonko has set the Universe in motion and Wonko always tells the truth...how do I know? Cause he says so. Just read Verse 5427, line 31 of the Revealed Holy Wisdom of Wonko which says, "You can believe me because I always tell the truth."

See, Wonko would never lie to you. So what excuse do you parade now? Will you risk ten eternities in the scorching fires at Wonko's Pool Hall, being doused with Bullseye and BBQ'd like a kitteh while Wonko's sadistic minions giggle as you burn?

Wonko performs incredible, unbelievable miracles...far better than those clunky ones jesus can do. Wonko knows the wine trick is for babies. Wonko turns water into single malt scotch. Wonko didn't just rise from the dead one time. No! Wonko rises from the dead seven days a week and 365 per year. Wonko does far more than walk on water. He sprints across the entire Atlantic Ocean every morning in less than the time it takes for adventists to say "amen". So you best watch your self around Wonko the Magic Elf! Storm

 

RhadTheGizmo wrote:
(In closing.  Stop trying to get to ahead the game and "guessing" where I'm going.
 

Aww shucks,  now you're just takin' the fun outta everything.  Shades


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Quote:Do you believe that

Quote:
Do you believe that things have "inherent" value?

No.  It's a nonsense concept.

Quote:
If you do not believe there is such a thing, then what do you base ascertain value on?

On your own goals, feelings, or beliefs, or the goals feelings, or beliefs of those whose opinions you believe.  People often share similar goals, feelings, or beliefs, so many things have shared value.  If there's no humans around, a hunk of gold is just a rock.

 

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By the way, Rhad, I'm glad

By the way, Rhad, I'm glad to see you back, even if you end up aggravating me.  That's part of your charm.

 

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Hambydammit wrote:Quote:Do

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
Do you believe that things have "inherent" value?

No.  It's a nonsense concept.

Quote:
If you do not believe there is such a thing, then what do you base ascertain value on?

On your own goals, feelings, or beliefs, or the goals feelings, or beliefs of those whose opinions you believe.  People often share similar goals, feelings, or beliefs, so many things have shared value.  If there's no humans around, a hunk of gold is just a rock.

 

 

I was going to say what Hamby said...only he said it much more concisely and logically than I would have, especially since I'm really, really tired.

There are things that I value and consider to valuable in and of themselves, but they do not have intrinsic value.  I am the one assigning the value. 

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Quote:"Inherent,"

Quote:
"Inherent," "intrinsic," could be used to refer to "the universally absolute," this does not mean they cannot be used to mean "the personally absolute" as well.
 


Sorry, you did use the word "inherent" not "intrinsic".


If I'm not mistaken, you may be indicating that I created the misimpression I think "inherent" entails "absolute" just that I restrict that relationship to the personal absolute and deny that it need entail a universal absolute. Actually, I deny both.


Quote:
I do think, however, that if "inherent" or "intrinsic" is to have have meaning.. it must entail an "absolute."


I don't agree. As my definition goes, "inherent value" is the kind of valuing assigned to something as an end in itself and not as a means to an end. But value exists in the subject doing the valuing and not the object being valued. To my thinking, value would have to be in  the object for "inherent" to entail "absolute".  But I deny value is in the object. Value is in the person who assigns value and an "intrinsic value" is a mode of value assignment.
 

Here's an example of how something can have inherent value but not absolute value:
 

Food would not be considered as having inherent value since it is valued as a means to the end of sustaining life. Life itself would be a better candidate for something assigned inherent value. Unless one believes life has teleological purpose, then life is given value by the subject as an end and not as a means to an end.
 

But does life have absolute value? I'd say no - since life is only valuable so long as a person is assigning value to it.
 

Quote:
Whether that "absolute" is thought of only in the personal sense or in a universal one.. depends on the person and how he views it.


I thought it important to compare it with the other two for this very reason; because sometimes one can say something has "inherent value," in the absolute sense, yet still little "personal value."
For instance, while I may say all conscious beings have inherent value, I would still save my friend from drowning over the serial killer, even though though the serial killer might have been easier to save.


A person could assign conscious beings inherent value in that  the value attached to them is not of the type means to end, but still maintain they have no absolute value since one being is not considered precisely equal to each other and the value is not in the thing valued.
 


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aiia wrote:RhadTheGizmo

aiia wrote:

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

(2) God adds nothing that he does not add.

 

And you know this how? Talking to yourself again?

It's tautological.  Are you really going to argue with a tautology?

 


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 Quote: there's no

 

Quote:
Sing there's no addition like show addition, like no addition I know.

Quote:
Aww shucks,  now you're just takin' the fun outta everything.  Shades

Hah.

Smiling

 


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Hambydammit wrote:By the

Hambydammit wrote:

By the way, Rhad, I'm glad to see you back, even if you end up aggravating me.  That's part of your charm.

 

Heh.  Glad to see you too Hamby.


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Hambydammit wrote:Quote:Do

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
Do you believe that things have "inherent" value?

No.  It's a nonsense concept.

Quote:
If you do not believe there is such a thing, then what do you base ascertain value on?

On your own goals, feelings, or beliefs, or the goals feelings, or beliefs of those whose opinions you believe.  People often share similar goals, feelings, or beliefs, so many things have shared value.  If there's no humans around, a hunk of gold is just a rock.

 

Agreed.


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FFR wrote:Quote:"Inherent,"

FFR wrote:

Quote:
"Inherent," "intrinsic," could be used to refer to "the universally absolute," this does not mean they cannot be used to mean "the personally absolute" as well.
 


Sorry, you did use the word "inherent" not "intrinsic".


If I'm not mistaken, you may be indicating that I created the misimpression I think "inherent" entails "absolute" just that I restrict that relationship to the personal absolute and deny that it need entail a universal absolute. Actually, I deny both.

I'm sorry that I confused your position.


Quote:
Quote:
I do think, however, that if "inherent" or "intrinsic" is to have have meaning.. it must entail an "absolute."


I don't agree. As my definition goes, "inherent value" is the kind of valuing assigned to something as an end in itself and not as a means to an end. But value exists in the subject doing the valuing and not the object being valued. To my thinking, value would have to be in  the object for "inherent" to entail "absolute".  But I deny value is in the object. Value is in the person who assigns value and an "intrinsic value" is a mode of value assignment.

 

Here's an example of how something can have inherent value but not absolute value:
 

Food would not be considered as having inherent value since it is valued as a means to the end of sustaining life. Life itself would be a better candidate for something assigned inherent value. Unless one believes life has teleological purpose, then life is given value by the subject as an end and not as a means to an end.
 

But does life have absolute value? I'd say no - since life is only valuable so long as a person is assigning value to it.

Makes sense.


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aiia wrote:RhadTheGizmo

aiia wrote:

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

(2) God adds nothing that he does not add.

 

And you know this how? Talking to yourself again?

Err.. it'd kinda seem to be self-evident, Aiia. Note that Rhad's not saying God adds anything, only that anything God doesn't add, God doesn't add.

It's kinda like saying 'wow, that H2O has like, twice as much hydrogen as it does Oxygen!' or '2 + 2 = 2 x 2'. 2 2s is 2 2s. H2O is 2(H) per O. God adds only whatever God adds, and so adds nothing God doesn't add. 1 = 1, j00 n0?

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Yes. There is such a thing

Yes. There is such a thing as 'inherent' value. It is me.

I have inherent value. By that I mean that I have value that is derived from no external source. My value is to me, for I am all that I can ever know is, and my value arises from my existence itself; my existence is in fact of paramount value to myself (and so too of paramount value to everything I can be 100% sure actually exists) because without me, the entire scope of the provable universe (ie: that which I can be 100% sure exists... you know... me) ceases to be.

In other words, ultimately the only scale I can ever have to truly judge value by arises from my own judgement, and in that scale, the one thing that can be certified to have value in and of itself is me, because it is the only thing that can be certified to even exist. Moreover, without me, I'm not, and so me is pretty damned important to me. Smiling

And it's good to see you again, Rhad.

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BMcD wrote:aiia

BMcD wrote:

aiia wrote:

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

(2) God adds nothing that he does not add.

 

And you know this how? Talking to yourself again?

Err.. it'd kinda seem to be self-evident, Aiia. Note that Rhad's not saying God adds anything, only that anything God doesn't add, God doesn't add.

It's kinda like saying 'wow, that H2O has like, twice as much hydrogen as it does Oxygen!' or '2 + 2 = 2 x 2'. 2 2s is 2 2s. H2O is 2(H) per O. God adds only whatever God adds, and so adds nothing God doesn't add. 1 = 1, j00 n0?

You beat me to it. This statement was a waste of data storage and completely pointless.

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RhadTheGizmo wrote: So.. I

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

 So.. I was listening to NPR on my way back from some errands, and it got me thinking.  Do you believe that things have "inherent" value?  If you do, please define what you mean by inherent value, and say why you believe there is such.

If you do not believe there is such a thing, then what do you base ascertain value on?

As has been already said nothing has value except which we individually place upon it. You may think gold has inherent value while I may live in the Amazon jungle and see it as valueless. As change occurs in technology that which was thought to have value no longer does. In the old West horses were so valuable that to steal one was a hanging offense. Today one can't seem to give away the wild horses in the Western US. In ancient Greece the Oracle at Delphi was thought to be a valuable source of knowledge while today it's scoffed at as valueless soothsaying.

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"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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RhadTheGizmo wrote:aiia

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

aiia wrote:

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

(2) God adds nothing that he does not add.

 

And you know this how? Talking to yourself again?

It's tautological.  Are you really going to argue with a tautology?

 

BMcD wrote:

aiia wrote:

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

(2) God adds nothing that he does not add.

 

And you know this how? Talking to yourself again?

Err.. it'd kinda seem to be self-evident, Aiia. Note that Rhad's not saying God adds anything, only that anything God doesn't add, God doesn't add.

It's kinda like saying 'wow, that H2O has like, twice as much hydrogen as it does Oxygen!' or '2 + 2 = 2 x 2'. 2 2s is 2 2s. H2O is 2(H) per O. God adds only whatever God adds, and so adds nothing God doesn't add. 1 = 1, j00 n0?

umm yea.

Actually I was refering to something that is off topic and was looking at the word "god". I should of asked "what god?"

I'm tired and I seem to have a one track mind.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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BMcD wrote:Yes. There is

BMcD wrote:

Yes. There is such a thing as 'inherent' value. It is me.

I have inherent value. By that I mean that I have value that is derived from no external source. My value is to me, for I am all that I can ever know is, and my value arises from my existence itself; my existence is in fact of paramount value to myself (and so too of paramount value to everything I can be 100% sure actually exists) because without me, the entire scope of the provable universe (ie: that which I can be 100% sure exists... you know... me) ceases to be.

In other words, ultimately the only scale I can ever have to truly judge value by arises from my own judgement, and in that scale, the one thing that can be certified to have value in and of itself is me, because it is the only thing that can be certified to even exist. Moreover, without me, I'm not, and so me is pretty damned important to me. Smiling

And it's good to see you again, Rhad.

Very self-referential... very interesting.

Heh.  Good to see you too BMCD.  Although.. who knows how long I'll be around.  RSS sucks up time I can't afford to give up now that school is back in session.  


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RhadTheGizmo wrote: So.. I

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

 So.. I was listening to NPR on my way back from some errands, and it got me thinking.  Do you believe that things have "inherent" value?  If you do, please define what you mean by inherent value, and say why you believe there is such.

If you do not believe there is such a thing, then what do you base ascertain value on?

Inherrent value exists only in concept with context. Much like good, evil, etc. Without something to value "Z", "Z" cannot have value.

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I would imagine value

I would imagine value judgement requires a subject, an agency, to differentiate between some set of qualities that makes a thing -- or really the notion of a thing -- better or worse than if it was another way. The concept is just not meaningful without subjectivity.

EDIT: There are, however, qualitative judgments shared by a vast majority of subjects, and many tied to functions operating beneath the intellect (e.g. the biological reflex of the body to preserve itself, and to propagate). Outside of the biological context, these ideas aren't meaningful. They begin and end with us.


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RhadTheGizmo wrote:Very

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

Very self-referential... very interesting.

Heh.  Good to see you too BMCD.  Although.. who knows how long I'll be around.  RSS sucks up time I can't afford to give up now that school is back in session.  

Well, the only frame of reference we truly have is ourselves. Everything else is really only our perceptions of everything else, and so only has any relevance in relation to... ourselves.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid