Sense of Worth

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Sense of Worth

I do not believe there is a greater meaning to life. I do not believe that there is a cosmic plan being guided by anything. We are part of a natural process. The earth is not flat. The sun does not rotate around our planet. When we tear out someone’s heart and offer it to the Jaguar god it does not bring rain.  So where does that leave me? Stuck in reality.  Living in reality is a complicated gift. I am left with the realization that the world will continue on without me when I die. I have to come to terms with the fact that this life is the beginning and ending of my existence. My effect on this world will be in my every action. I affect the flow of cause and affect no matter how hard I might try to not leave a foot print.  I also know that my every action is my own. That each feeling I have originates within me and is mine to cherish. I know that we, humanity, have the ability to control our lives. There is no puppet master holding a big "Veto" stamp over our lives. When I do a kind thing I can feel good about it for its own sake. I can be happy that I helped someone, or that I tried to. When we decide as a community that harming each other is not allowed, we can take credit for that. When we learn more about the world around us we can smile with pride, and glow in the warmth that we have grown and continue to grow as a species.  Unfortunately, there are some answers that are harder to find than others. Some, who knows, maybe we'll never have the ability to understand fully. This is where the gap is, the gap that people usually attribute to the supernatural.  For those that are comfortable plugging in supernatural belief to the questions they don't have answers to (at least not answers that they like) this is a quick fix. It plugs up the empty space. It "answers" the questions of the unknown. Granted, the answers assigned to these questions are based on wild speculation and are almost certainly incorrect.  Still, the effect is a sense of security; a sense of worth. It's a kind of poetic oneness with the world. Without having some answer, made up or otherwise, I can be left with a kind of emptiness. I fill it with what I can, what I think is appropriate. I concentrate on the here and now. I try to enjoy each moment as if it were my last... which it very well might be. I try to take heart in the knowledge that I am "special" in that we are almost certainly the only intelligent species of our kind in the entirety of the universe. I find a sense of home in my community. I become active in the attempts to make this world a better place. I make an effort to learn and grow a sense of enlightenment to the degree that I can. Still, is there an emptiness? Or is that feeling just the shock of throwing off social training? Am I really looking for a sense of meaning or am I just brought up to think that there should be one and I'm acting accordingly? Sorry for the long waxing philisophical. I was just talking with my wife who is having a hard time. She's working through some depression. I actually found myself saying that she needed to find something "spiritual" in her life. Right when it came out of my mouth I was like "what the fuck did you just say?!?!". But my meaning was pretty specific. The word spiritual gives me the creeps, but what I meant to say was something that brought her joy. Something that gave her meaning, hope, that kind of thing.  For me, I find it in different places. It's an ongoing search to find the things that I enjoy that don't aid in bringing about my destruction at a more advanced rate Smiling Make-believe is just such an easy fix. It's a catch all "feel better" clause. I'd rather her believe in ghosts than to see her in misery.  Do you find that you struggle with the idea of "meaning" to life? Is it something you catch yourself thinking about? If so, what do you do? I'm not just talking about this from a "supernatural or not supernatural" standpoint either, though that has been the main focus of my rambling. Do you have tricks that you kind of call on to snap yourself out of fixating on the whole "why am I hear" thoughts? Maybe some of the skills you have learned I can pass along to Lori.

 

 


marcusfish
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Holy crap! That didn't

Holy crap! That didn't work.

I copied in from Word. Hmm... now how do I FIX it...


marcusfish
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[EDIT: Maybe this one will

[EDIT: Maybe this one will work. What a rookie...]

I do not believe there is a greater meaning to life. I do not believe that there is a cosmic plan being guided by anything. We are part of a natural process. The earth is not flat. The sun does not rotate around our planet. When we tear out someone’s heart and offer it to the Jaguar god it does not bring rain. 

So where does that leave me?

Stuck in reality. 

Living in reality is a complicated gift. I am left with the realization that the world will continue on without me when I die. I have to come to terms with the fact that this life is the beginning and ending of my existence. My effect on this world will be in my every action. I affect the flow of cause and affect no matter how hard I might try to not leave a foot print. 

I also know that my every action is my own. That each feeling I have originates within me and is mine to cherish. I know that we, humanity, have the ability to control our lives. There is no puppet master holding a big "Veto" stamp over our lives. When I do a kind thing I can feel good about it for its own sake. I can be happy that I helped someone, or that I tried to. When we decide as a community that harming each other is not allowed, we can take credit for that. When we learn more about the world around us we can smile with pride, and glow in the warmth that we have grown and continue to grow as a species. 

Unfortunately, there are some answers that are harder to find than others. Some, who knows, maybe we'll never have the ability to understand fully. This is where the gap is, the gap that people usually attribute to the supernatural. 

For those that are comfortable plugging in supernatural belief to the questions they don't have answers to (at least not answers that they like) this is a quick fix. It plugs up the empty space. It "answers" the questions of the unknown. Granted, the answers assigned to these questions are based on wild speculation and are almost certainly incorrect. 

Still, the effect is a sense of security; a sense of worth. It's a kind of poetic oneness with the world.

Without having some answer, made up or otherwise, I can be left with a kind of emptiness. I fill it with what I can, what I think is appropriate. I concentrate on the here and now. I try to enjoy each moment as if it were my last... which it very well might be. I try to take heart in the knowledge that I am "special" in that we are almost certainly the only intelligent species of our kind in the entirety of the universe. I find a sense of home in my community. I become active in the attempts to make this world a better place. I make an effort to learn and grow a sense of enlightenment to the degree that I can.

Still, is there an emptiness? Or is that feeling just the shock of throwing off social training? Am I really looking for a sense of meaning or am I just brought up to think that there should be one and I'm acting accordingly?

Sorry for the long waxing philisophical. I was just talking with my wife who is having a hard time. She's working through some depression. I actually found myself saying that she needed to find something "spiritual" in her life. Right when it came out of my mouth I was like "what the fuck did you just say?!?!". But my meaning was pretty specific. The word spiritual gives me the creeps, but what I meant to say was something that brought her joy. Something that gave her meaning, hope, that kind of thing. 

For me, I find it in different places. It's an ongoing search to find the things that I enjoy that don't aid in bringing about my destruction at a more advanced rate  Make-believe is just such an easy fix. It's a catch all "feel better" clause. I'd rather her believe in ghosts than to see her in misery. 

Do you find that you struggle with the idea of "meaning" to life? Is it something you catch yourself thinking about? If so, what do you do? I'm not just talking about this from a "supernatural or not supernatural" standpoint either, though that has been the main focus of my rambling. Do you have tricks that you kind of call on to snap yourself out of fixating on the whole "why am I hear" thoughts? Maybe some of the skills you have learned I can pass along to Lori.

 


latincanuck
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I like it

Personally I have my own reasons for living, I like living, I love life, however I do accept death as a natural part of life, which is different than knowing I am going to die. I know a many people that know they are going to die but don't accept it (I call them my religious friends Laughing out loud). As for the meaning of life thing, well I take the natural approach....to continue the human race to keep my genes going and those of my ancestors. Then again I have my own meaning, to experience as much as I can with this life that I have on this planet.

I enjoy the good times and the bad times as well, as I know that in time all things change, I love travelling I love doing new things (ok still trying to get my mind wrapped around the whole parachuting thing....i mean seriously why would I want to jump out of a perfectly good plane?), I simply love living and that's all the meaning I need. I do not require some deep cosmic plan or the idea of being the slave of a god for me to have meaning. The meaning I make is my own.


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Before I answer the question

Before I answer the question you asked, I should point out that I wrote a very in depth article about purpose in life.  It doesn't directly answer your question, but there might be something helpful to your wife in it.

For New Atheists: Is This Really All There Is?

Quote:
Still, is there an emptiness? Or is that feeling just the shock of throwing off social training? Am I really looking for a sense of meaning or am I just brought up to think that there should be one and I'm acting accordingly?

There's definitely a real sense of emptiness that some people feel regardless of religious upbringing.  However, there are a lot of religious and mythological notions floating around in American culture, so it wouldn't surprise me if there's some cultural baggage in there, too.

A few years ago, I read a book about the Great Depression -- it was written several years after, so it's pretty much a firsthand account.  When the whole system collapsed, people who weren't going to starve to death were often the ones who were the most depressed.  The very poor had their work cut out for them trying to scrape two pennies together.  Their purpose was staying alive.  The ones who lost purpose were the ones whose whole career had crumbled and who were left with literally nothing to show for all their work, and nothing to do with their job skills.

In my own life, I've observed that the people who feel the biggest loss of purpose are often the ones who buy into a particular answer to the question of purpose.  That is, when someone feels like getting married, or having kids, or getting a particular job, or helping the poor, or whatever, will make them feel complete, they put a lot of their emotional eggs into that basket.  When it turns out that their solution isn't the magic pill that will make everything happy, it's sometimes a huge let down.

Granted, there are probably some people who find "the thing" that makes them perfectly happy.  I think they're pretty rare though.  For most of us, it's a matter of putting lots of puzzle pieces together, each of which contributes to happiness, but none of which are "the answer" in themselves.

Quote:
Sorry for the long waxing philisophical. I was just talking with my wife who is having a hard time. She's working through some depression. I actually found myself saying that she needed to find something "spiritual" in her life.

Without knowing specific things about what's going on in her life right now, it's kind of hard to say much.  I've known a lot of women who have grown listless and depressed after getting married.  Women sometimes put a LOT of stock into getting married, and once they get it, it's like... "Now what?"  Another possibility is physical.  I don't know if you have kids, but there are an awful lot of hormonal changes in women during and after pregnancy that can sometimes be permanent.  You might consider getting her to a doctor to see if hormone therapy is in order if there's any indication that her depression might be linked to childbirth in any way.

Actually, in general, it would be a good idea to get her to a doctor for depression if only to rule out physical causes.  It may seem to her that she's depressed because she lacks purpose or meaning, but it might be that she lacks one chemical or another.

Quote:
Do you have tricks that you kind of call on to snap yourself out of fixating on the whole "why am I hear" thoughts? Maybe some of the skills you have learned I can pass along to Lori.

Well, for me, I find that sometimes I forget about the now.  That is, I find myself worrying about the future while I could be enjoying something I'm doing right now.  It seems to me that a lot of people forget to enjoy the moment.  You'd be amazed how much joy I get out of something as simple as making a great meal or playing a great game of darts.  The fact is, there are a lot of very enjoyable things in the world that we often take for granted.  Have you guys been in a rut lately, doing the same things day in and day out?  Is there something the two of you could do together that's out of the ordinary?  Maybe just going camping for a weekend, or whatever floats your boat?  Sometimes it's easy to forget to do fun things, and we don't realize how long we've neglected our playtime.

There is another thing I see people do sometimes.  It doesn't seem to effect me, but I've noticed that a lot of people get morose about physical pleasure.  They say, "Yeah, this feels good, but it's just a feeling."  That sounds like nonsense to me.  If we aren't our own feelings, what are we?  That's just it, in fact!  They're not just feelings -- feelings are everything there is for us.  The sum total of our existence is our perceptions, thoughts, and feelings, and everything we think comes directly from what we perceive and feel.

It's my opinion that getting all down on pleasure because it's "just pleasure" is silly.  That, if you ask me, is a result of cultural myths and religion.  I'm not saying that we ought to become hedonists and just pursue pleasure blindly, but any sense of guilt or emptiness because something feels good is indicative of some wrong-headed thinking.  Getting lost in a good feeling -- well, it feels really good.  There's no shame or guilt inherent in selfishly enjoying pleasure.

Anyway, those are my general thoughts.  Again, without knowing more specific details about why Lori's feeling down, it's kind of hard to say anything specific.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


marcusfish
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Wonderful stuff guys,

Wonderful stuff guys, thanks.

Hamby, the hugeness of your mind frightens and confuses me...

I know it's hard to really have much opinion about something of which you have very little detail. I appreciate your shots in the dark. There is a whole laundry list of stuff that would be relevant to the discussion but I'll do Lori (and myself) the favor of not airing it out Sticking out tongue

You may not realize though Hamby, but you answered my question precisely. A rut is certainly where we are, in the realm of enjoying life. Our hobbies, sex life, social life, it's all been in the dumps for what seems like a few eternities. We're both just kind of moping around these days which is bad, because Lori is a very bubbly person. For her to be in the dumps, man, the world is just a colder place.

We talked about it over lunch and since next weekend is my birthday we're going to get out of town. We both put in for a long weekend and we're going on a road trip. We don't know where yet because we only just decided on doing it, but we'll figure it out. I think maybe we'll go down to the bookstore this weekend and get out some travel books for central Texas. There's lots of beautiful places to go I'm sure, without driving 500 miles. We're going to bring our camping equipment and get out of here! I feel better already Sticking out tongue

I find that I also feel much better when I can get out of the future. It's the worst place for me in the world. It's even worse than being in the past. When I can really enjoy what's going on around me, or what's NOT going on around me, it feels really nice.


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Surprisingly, I've had most

Surprisingly, I've had most of the answers on the sense of life long ago. Who are we, where did we come from, where are we going, why are we here, and also for me in particular. I don't suffer by spiritual crises, fear from death, etc, I don't even have to deny or secularize my spirituality.
What I'm searching for, is
job + money
more sex
more beer and water pipe
more hanging out with friends
more sports
living abroad
getting some job there, and maybe studying a psychology or something
etc...
I had seen the spiritual truth, and the spiritual truth says, that the above mentioned things are spiritual too, so go to get the damn job, you slacker.  The path to enlightenment leads through here as well.

As for Lori, it looks like this is a typical issue I've seen in practice for years, on people.
It seems like a nature's law, once someone achieves a family, job, house, some savings, friends, and so on, here comes a  crisis, which is often about the sense of life, why we are here, who we are, etc. It's in fact a good sign, but people sometimes calls it "middle age crisis". One my grandfather (already dead) had such a crisis, and my grandmother (not a nice person, and xtian) forced him to go to a nuthouse for a therapy. He returned, after being on medications and electric shocks, and he was never the same person already, he was like dulled, incapable of any character development, new thought, or thinking about new ideas. So I personally would recommend to Lori to keep away from a nuthouse. A medical examination for a hormonal unbalance is fine, but if this is a "middle age crisis" then it's mainly a psychologic issue with maybe some psychosomatic side-effects, and must be dealt with psychologically.

It would be good to let Lori search for what form of personal improvement suits her. Read some religious texts if that's it, maybe some New Age books if this will speak to her, and of course, Carl Sagan and Richard Dawkins. Furthermore, she could try something practical, like a charity work, meditation (carefully), yoga, tai-chi, etc. These are blind shots to find out what the person in such a crisis needs. There are various types of people and it necessary to search and try a lot of various things. If something is not right, the person will simply leave it sooner or later.
If everything will go well and Lori will find what suits her the most, she might have a hobby which will be good for her and the world. This is why there's a saying, that the real life begins after your 40's...

 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Good stuff Luminon, thanks

Good stuff Luminon, thanks for chiming in.

We'll stay out of the nuthouses as long as we can! Here's hopin'.


I AM GOD AS YOU
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Geezz I love you guys.

Geezz I love you guys. Thermodynamics is the science of why I say we are all god, all is one, as all is eternal , as nothing actually dies, it fucking can't.

The transition of birth, life and death are our confusing part of the "one" big dance. We were all dead for an eternity before this, and we didn't object.

Death is bliss, life is hard. Peace / War / Yin / Yang / Life / Death  .... ONE.   Relaxing is indeed hard ... please try, and fight ignorance, fear and separatism. All is one and eternal.

    GOD we are .... obviously ... of zero religious idolistic supernatural separatist god possibilities and wishful definitions .... I AM sorry, I AM what I AM, just as you are god too, condemned to be free .... no sky daddy to the rescue.