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Christ the Magician?
Posted on: October 6, 2008 - 12:29am
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Christ the Magician?
Has anyone else heard about this? Cup found with earliest reference to Christ...being a Magician.
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Um... yeah.
Honestly, I can't decide which I'd like better. If we unearthed evidence that Jesus really lived, and was a sorcerer, that would be pretty cool. I mean... the buybull is pretty clear on sorcerers. God might have killed himself for practicing magic. How cool would that be?
On the other hand, it'd be pretty neat to watch Christians try to refute so-called evidence for their god after so many years of trying to find any evidence at all.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Jesus the Magician... Some of you must allready know this one:
And then there's this one, which I'm sure you know (sorry for the poor quality... It was the best YouTube could offer)
Adult Stewie from the future tells present day baby Stewie: "I traveled back in time to visit Jesus Christ. Turns out his abilities might have been exagerated a bit..."
Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin
out of curiosity, was the name christ popular at the time?
LOL , All religion separation is voodoo shit .... as science is my witness .... as all is One, as is the law of thermodynamics , and is my most perfect faith , while the religious goes fucking sucking on jesus idols, as I AM also the real jesus who simply says I AM GOD AS YOU.
I like my atheist buddha jesus ancestor scientist, and so fuck you idol maker paul and your xainity religion idol crap and all your praying following worshipers ..... Hey , All is One, fuck you religion separatists, as the wise ancient scientists said , as then devils of wrong thinking even murdered them ..... ME is Jesus , smash the church temple of idol worship .... and fix my words.
Atheism Books.
I thought "Christ" literally meant "savior. "
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"Christ" isn't a name as much as a title. The word it's taken from is "christos", meaning "anointed".
"Jesus" or "Yahshua" means "Yahweh saves"
Put the two together and you get a generic title for an "anointed savior".
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
This is another example of scholars letting their imaginations run wild. The cup does not say 'Christ', it says CHRSTOU, the problem is this cup could easily be refering to the common freed-slave name Chrestus (not Christ) it lacks the iota to make it Christ. Some of you may recognize this name from a passage in Suetonius, another Chrestus instigated the Jews against Rome and was banished by Claudius. Even if it were meant to be read as "Christou" it would not definitely refer to Jesus. As it has been already pointed out it just means 'anointed' and could refer to anybody. Worse yet the dating goes back as far as the 2nd Century BCE, which means the inscription could go back that far as well. I believe that the 1/4 - 1/2 of the first century CE it could be dated too is a convenience but not more than that. As the article also makes note, the cup could also be refering to any of the number of Greek mystical cults at the time. The verdict is still out and as with the Messiah son of Joseph inscription, I ask for caution from all parties.
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Early Christian view of Jesus
see "Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God?" by Morton smith.
In the first 70 years of Christian art (4th century), when Jesus is depicted performing miracles, he almost always has a magic wand in his right hand and a scroll in his left hand.
Jesus has a scroll that he stole from the Jewish temple. The scroll contains the real name of god that can be used for performing any magic as described in the Talmud.
See my "magicial Jesus" daemon on the left.
See Christ the Magician by William Storage and Laura Maish
http://www.rome101.com/Christian/Magician/ for several examples of Jesus depicted as magician in early Christian art.
The magi were magicians who visited Jesus when he was 2 years old.
In this early period, Saint Peter was usually depicted performing miracles with a magic wand. Moses was also depicted performing miracles with the magic staff that God gave him.
see story on "Christ the Magician" here http://news.softpedia.com/news/Christ-the-Magician-Reads-Ancient-Cup-94996.shtml
In the pseudo Clementine, Peter and Simon Magus (the magician) have a magical duel in the air above Rome.
The miracles of Christ are the same miracles that other Greek and Roman magicians are often claimed to have performed. The Jews and Philosophers were well aware that those so-called miracles were just magic tricks.
Christian sacraments and Christian prayer are forms of primitive ritualistic magic.
when you say "faith" I think "evil lies"
when you say "god" I think "santa clause"
An entertaining book but beyond that it is frivolous.
Very true! All healers had wands from all over the Hellenic and Roman empires.
There were many early depictions of Jesus, some with him as a Roman Centurian, others have him as a Noble, other art still has Jesus depicted as Orpheus. Some of these images are earlier than a few of the 'Jesus holding wand' images.
No. Those were wise men and they visited at his birth.
Yes, and Simon Magus was cast down with prayer for performing magic.
Incredible how fiction inspires new fiction.
Actually the miracles that Jesus performs as the same ones the Jewish patriarchs perform.
No, they're forms of primitive ritualistic symbolism.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)
Maybe Jesus was the David Blaine of his time. You know... started as a 'street magician', then graduated to performing endurance feats. "Check this out guys, I'm going to go into that desert for forty days!" Then, rather than encasing himself in ice, and hanging from a rope for days, he hung from a cross and encased himself in a tomb for days.
No big deal. If David Blaine can do it, maybe Jesus could too.
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Hi natural, 40 days changed me, I did it at Lake Mead alone, in comfortable weather. Middle Idaho, Lewis and Clark trail area in the summer, and Baja, Sea of Cortez in the winter are other favorites of mine. I live in So. Cal, 10 miles from, surf city Hunington Beach.
I've found lots of old arrow heads but no jesus cups.
Atheism Books.
IAGAY, how much weed and/or mushrooms were consumed?
Hi Natural, None to your question, just a little beer. Nature was the constant drug. You are good with words. Please do fix mine as you please.
LOL
Atheism Books.
Normal 0
I reviewed the art at http://www.rome101.com/Christian/Magician
Jesus has a wand and scroll when he performs non-healing magic, but he only has a scroll and does not have a wand when performing healing magic - he is shown putting mud into eyes or laying hands on the sick.
Crossman has an entire Chapter on Jesus as magician in his book The Historical Jesus.
The earliest six depictions of Jesus (all the depictions of Jesus between 350 and 400) are sarcophagi and every one of them includes at least one depiction of Jesus performing magic with a scroll and a wand.
Notice also that the sarcophagi would often include a mix of purely pagan scenes, old testament scenes, and Christian scenes on the same sarcophagus.
"wise men" was a term used by the Greeks for sorcerers.
The early Christians probably conceived of the magi as sorcerers. The original Greek in Matthew 2:1ff., calls the men who came to visit Jesus magoi, the plural of magos. The only other occurrence of the Greek word magos is Acts 13:6,8, where it is translated "magician," meaning one who practices sorcery. The Greek Old Testament (LXX) has an occurrence of magos (Daniel 2:2), and there it also means "magician." But see also Jeremiah 39:3,13, where a "Rabmag" is mentioned.
ritualistic symbolism is ritual that is not believed to have any magical effect.
ritualistic magic is ritual that is supposed to have some magical effect.
Prayer is ritualistic magic. God is supposed to magically answering the prayer.
Baptism is ritualistic magic. It erases original sin from the soul
Marriage is ritualistic magic. It is believed to convert mating from sin into a blessing.
Holy communion for Catholics is ritualistic magic. For Catholics, the communion wafer literally becomes the body and blood of Jesus Christ, and they are literally eating the body and blood of Jesus Christ. They believe that they are literally practicing magical cannibalism.
Communion for most protestant sects is ritualistic magic. They believe that communion magically brings harmony and "togetherness" to their congregation.
There are a few protestant sects that do not think that communion has some magical effect beyond mere symbolic cannibalism.
There is no difference between magic and religion.
"the prescriptive distinction that states that we practice religion but they practice magic should be seen for what it is, a political validation of the approved and the official against the unapproved and unofficial."-- Crossan, The Historical Jesus, p310.
when you say "faith" I think "evil lies"
when you say "god" I think "santa clause"
RE: Your immortal soul will burn alive in hell forever after you die unless you are saved by Jesus. Just get on you're knees and say "I accept the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior". Then you will feel Jesus come into your heart.
I have tried your magic ritual and incantation many times, and it still is not working for me, so I have some questions.
Should I hold the magic wand in my right hand or my left hand while I say it, and should I point it at my head or my heart?
does it work better if I say it on Sunday or maybe Friday the 13th?
Would it help to sprinkle fresh chicken blood on crucifix while I say it?
Does it help if I shut my eyes while I say it?
Is it necessary to believe that the Bible is not fiction while I chant your magical incantation?
Is it necessary to believe that Jesus is not just a fictional character in a fictional story when I chant your magical incantation?
Is it necessary to believe that I have been possessed by magical fairy creature called a soul for your magical incantation to work, and is it me or the magical fairy creature that has to say the words, and why should I care what happens to some magical fairy creature that supposedly possessed my body without my permission?
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Magical horse shoes are supposed to bring good luck whether you believe in them or not. However for Christian magic to work, you supposedly have to believe. Faith is just a magic talisman in Christianity. Faith is just the Christian version of sprinkling voodoo chicken blood, as you say the magical incantations.
Faith is just part of the magical ritual formula that Christians call "prayer" for having your wishes come true. It does not work any better than wishing on a star.
Faith is just part of the magical ritual formula that Christians call "being saved" for avoiding hell and going to heaven when you die (assuming that you are not a physical being but you're really some magical fairy creature or demon that is possessing your animal body).
How is believing that you're a soul possessing a body any different than believing that your a demon possessing a body. This belief is a common symptom of paranoid schizophrenia.
when you say "faith" I think "evil lies"
when you say "god" I think "santa clause"