Moon Landing a Hoax

MattShizzle
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Moon Landing a Hoax

The ridiculous idea that the astronauts never really landed on the moon and the whole thing was a hoax is another popular idea with the "woo woo" crowd. I would thik it was too absurd normally to address, but according to a recent Mythbusters episode (where they PWNED some of the more common arguments for this rubbish) an incredible 20% of Americans believe the moon landing was a hoax. This is so popular and so idiotic I think it would make a great episode of the show (especially if you could get an astronaut who actually was on the moon as a guest - they are understandably pissed off by being called liars. ) Any opinions on this? Is this just another example of human stupidity?

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Well

The problem lies in the fact that hollywood could have done it (although again people there lies the biggest problem....tooo many people involved). However why lie about it and spend tons of money on it when eventually they will get to the moon no matter what, with technology advancing and everything, and of course the race to the moon with the russians. It makes no sense.


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The ultimate PWN on the

The ultimate PWN on the Mythbusters episode was they reflected a laser of where a reflector was placed by one of the 1970's Apollo missions - proving there was man made equipment there. They also disproved the most common conspiracy-theorist objections using science.

 

Idiocy tends to annoy me whether it's theistic or otherwise.

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I think the problem with

I think the problem with this conspiracy is in the intellect of its creators. I remember seeing a program that billed itself as a documentary that was examining evidence. The end viewpoint of the program was that the moon landings were hoaxes, and had all been faked. The amount of evidence presented and the way it was presented was extraordinarily brilliant. After watching it, I truly began to wonder, and did my own investigations. At which point the vast majority of presented evidence was thrown from my head. I never had every question answered, but more than enough of it was to dismiss the claims of a conspiracy in a similar light to claims of god, alien abductions, and santa claus. However, in my experience, not all or even many people are so self motivated to prove or disprove things, so they will believe or disbelieve according to their own acceptance of the material until real evidence in thrown in their face. That rarely happens.

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Brings back memories of OJ

Brings back memories of OJ Simpson in "Capricorn One".

This was the conspiracy film on the moon landing....late 70's.

 

Further reminds me of:

A new Ford Bronco is being marketed to replace the Eddie Bauer model.
It is the O.J. model. It comes with storage for your ice picks and
bloody gloves, stain-resistant carpeting, extra fuel capacity for
those long trips and a cell phone. Takes you for the drive of
your lifetime.

and cornball...

How do you find O.J. on the Internet?

Just type:  slash, backslash, slash, backslash then escape.

 


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Vastet wrote:However, in my

Vastet wrote:

However, in my experience, not all or even many people are so self motivated to prove or disprove things, so they will believe or disbelieve according to their own acceptance of the material until real evidence in thrown in their face. That rarely happens.

Most people will stick with their beliefs even in the face of evidence. Sad, but true: ideology beats logic. Even amongst us "rationals."

I both love and hate the sorts of shows you just described. I love 'em because they expose the absurdities some folks hold dear; and I hate 'em because it gives those same folks validation.

In the case of the moon-landing-hoax crowd, there's one simple question: What's the purpose of faking the moon landing? I've heard it's because it was too complex to actually get to the moon. Hogswallop, I say. Where's the evidence for that?

The group I like even more are the ones who say there were aliens flitting about just outside the camera view. Like the aliens were doing the little "V" with their fingers behind the astronauts' heads while taking pictures. That there are glass structures on the moon, built by aliens. To me, that's even cooler than the moon-landing-hoax folks.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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From my OP, it still blows

From my OP, it still blows my mind that 20% of Americans - that's 1 in 5 fucking people here - believes it was a hoax. That many people can't all be insane or incredibly stupid. It brings up the question again why Americans are so irrational compared to people from other western countries - besides this the number of people that believe in astrology, psychics and other nonsense (of course including religion. )

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MattShizzle wrote:From my

MattShizzle wrote:

From my OP, it still blows my mind that 20% of Americans - that's 1 in 5 fucking people here - believes it was a hoax. That many people can't all be insane or incredibly stupid. It brings up the question again why Americans are so irrational compared to people from other western countries - besides this the number of people that believe in astrology, psychics and other nonsense (of course including religion. )

That's the $10 billion/month question, Matt.

I think it's a cultivated psychosis. Seriously. I believe our nation is innundated with misinformation at every turn, from the Bush administration pushing through bogus "evidence" in a drive to war, to the oil companies pushing misinformation about global warming, on down to the Discovery Institute intentionally lieing in an effort to destroy science (because it's the fault of science that our culture has become materialistic, and turned away from Jesus, praise His name).

That's what I think. I think we're trained from an early age to be confused about things, to pick sides and form battle-lines. We see it all the time: vi vs. Emacs, everybody else vs Christians, all other people who call themselves "Christians" vs. those that really are Christian, Democrats vs. Republicans, Coke vs. Pepsi.... and so on. How many XBox 360 vs. PS3 arguments have there been? And why do people get so het up about it?

I don't think it's a conspiracy. I think it's just certain groups with power working hard to maintain their power, and are willing to say anything to that end.

It's the poor idiots in the middle who are inundated with contradictory information that are stuck trying to figure out what to believe. No wonder so many people turn to God; at least that's a simple belief. Irrational, sure, but simple. 

I'd be more interested to find out what percentage believes as Palin does that we are in the end-times, and God's Holy War is emminent.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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WTF are vi and Emacs?Forgot

WTF are vi and Emacs?

Forgot about global warming denial. That's another bullshit thing you only hear from Americans.

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Was it Buzz Aldren that

Was it Buzz Aldren that punched that one moon landing conspiracy nut in the nose? I saw footage of that and laughed. If that was Buzz, my hat goes off to you sir or to whichever astronaut it was.

 


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I know he gets pissed off -

I know he gets pissed off - by them saying that they are calling him a liar.


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MattShizzle wrote:WTF are vi

MattShizzle wrote:

WTF are vi and Emacs?

Text editors for programming. It was a geek joke.

Quote:

Forgot about global warming denial. That's another bullshit thing you only hear from Americans.

Americans are good at denying things: global warming, moon landings, the Holocaust, evolution... the list goes on. The only thing those folks don't deny is the existence of God.

Funny, that. Things with real evidence: deny. Things with no evidence whatsover: don't deny.

I think that's the problem with the moon landing and global warming. There's too much evidence.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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It was Buzz Aldrin - and the

It was Buzz Aldrin - and the asshole was harassing him - he directly called him a "liar and a coward. "

 

 

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MattShizzle wrote:It was

MattShizzle wrote:

It was Buzz Aldrin - and the asshole was harassing him - he directly called him a "liar and a coward. "

 

 

YES!! Thanks Matt. I like how Buzz wasted no time giving him the knuckle sandwich.


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There may be other polls

There may be other polls but....

 

A 1999 poll by the the Gallup organization found that 89 percent of the US public believed the landing was genuine, while 6 percent did not and 5 percent were undecided.

This seems more like what I would have expected.

A 1994 TIME/CNN poll got the same 6% result.

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/3712/Landing-Man-Moon-Publics-View.aspx

 


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This one I believe was from

This one I believe was from 2006 - and the Hoax stories have been more prominent in the last few years. Again, look at how many believe in other ridiculous things mentioned - and the 9/11 conspiracy nuts. I see on other websites how people talk - not anywhere close to as rational as people on this site (and I include the vast majority of theists who last any ammount of time here) tend to be. From what I can tell MOST people in the US have at least somewhat of a belief in psychics and ghosts - and fewer than half believe evolution true (regardless of the fact they know next to nothing about it) , the number who think global warming is anything other than a fact and man made -  not to mention the overwhelming majority that believe in God. I often feel that most people here are so stupid they may as well be unconscious.

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MattShizzle wrote:This one I

MattShizzle wrote:

This one I believe was from 2006 - and the Hoax stories have been more prominent in the last few years. Again, look at how many believe in other ridiculous things mentioned - and the 9/11 conspiracy nuts. I see on other websites how people talk - not anywhere close to as rational as people on this site (and I include the vast majority of theists who last any ammount of time here) tend to be. From what I can tell MOST people in the US have at least somewhat of a belief in psychics and ghosts - and fewer than half believe evolution true (regardless of the fact they know next to nothing about it) , the number who think global warming is anything other than a fact and man made -  not to mention the overwhelming majority that believe in God. I often feel that most people here are so stupid they may as well be unconscious.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but, the new one (at least to me) is Pearl Harbor denial. At the rate these people are going, I'm waiting for the Vietnam War denialists to come out any day now.


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They deny Pearl Harbor ever

They deny Pearl Harbor ever happened?????? Or do you mean the ones who say it was left to happen?


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Quote:Funny, that. Things

Quote:
Funny, that. Things with real evidence: deny. Things with no evidence whatsover: don't deny.

Funny indeed.  In fact, I have a sinking feeling of nausea right now.  This is so concise and accurate that it causes me physical pain.

Americans do seem particularly susceptible to the belief in the absurd.  Religion came before TV, so I'm going to put the lion's share of the blame on religion, but we can't discount TV and advertising.  I mean, hell... I'm supposed to believe that a particular variety of underarm deoderant will make hot chicks want to have sex with me as I'm walking down the street.

That may seem trivial, but I don't think it is.  Everything I see in American marketing right now is geared towards believing in something larger than life.  We can have two SUVs, a mortgage, two kids, yearly trips to Disney World, and a retirement account while working reasonable hours at a middle class job, maintaining a loving, vibrant sexual relationship with our wife, taking the kids to baseball, soccer, afterschool clubs, and doctor visits which are conveniently paid for by insurance that only costs five dollars a month.   We can have relaxing getaways at day spas, drink only the best whiskey, and spend our spare time learning languages quickly and easily in our spare time with Rosetta Stone®.   While we're at it, we only need to look around to realize that America is the greatest nation on earth, and anyone who thinks that we aren't more educated, better looking, and all around better folks than those pesky non-Americans... well, they can go back to where they came from.  When we fall in love, it will be forever.  Love conquers all.  Family is the most important thing in life, but we owe it to ourselves to take some time and travel, to see the world.  We all deserve our own life, with our own acre and a half.  Technology will save us from anything bad we do.  There's plenty of oil left.  Global warming is a minor glitch in the pattern of climate change.  Sarah Palin's really smart.  Obama's unqualified.  We can eat burgers and fries, and with only a three payments of $39.95 a month, we can own the Super-Duper-Emperor-Quality-Ab-ernator which will give us rock star bodies with only twenty minutes a day, three times a week, during our spare time when we're not hanging with our family, devoting all our free time to raising well adjusted kids, being a devoted spouse and lover, calling mom and dad daily, and recycling everything in sight.

[GASP]

Yeah... you know, there are times when I believe that Americans believe more lies than truths, on balance.

 

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nigelTheBold wrote:Vastet

nigelTheBold wrote:

Vastet wrote:

However, in my experience, not all or even many people are so self motivated to prove or disprove things, so they will believe or disbelieve according to their own acceptance of the material until real evidence in thrown in their face. That rarely happens.

Most people will stick with their beliefs even in the face of evidence. Sad, but true: ideology beats logic. Even amongst us "rationals."

I both love and hate the sorts of shows you just described. I love 'em because they expose the absurdities some folks hold dear; and I hate 'em because it gives those same folks validation.

In the case of the moon-landing-hoax crowd, there's one simple question: What's the purpose of faking the moon landing? I've heard it's because it was too complex to actually get to the moon. Hogswallop, I say. Where's the evidence for that?

The group I like even more are the ones who say there were aliens flitting about just outside the camera view. Like the aliens were doing the little "V" with their fingers behind the astronauts' heads while taking pictures. That there are glass structures on the moon, built by aliens. To me, that's even cooler than the moon-landing-hoax folks.

The best and most logical motive I've ever heard of was that it was the only way to beat the Russians there.

MattShizzle wrote:

They deny Pearl Harbor ever happened?????? Or do you mean the ones who say it was left to happen?

I too seek clarification. I've never heard of a Pearl Harbour denial. Impressive. It only takes 50 years for someone to turn reality into fiction now. Progress...I suppose....

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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
Funny, that. Things with real evidence: deny. Things with no evidence whatsover: don't deny.

Funny indeed.  In fact, I have a sinking feeling of nausea right now.  This is so concise and accurate that it causes me physical pain.

Americans do seem particularly susceptible to the belief in the absurd.  Religion came before TV, so I'm going to put the lion's share of the blame on religion, but we can't discount TV and advertising.  I mean, hell... I'm supposed to believe that a particular variety of underarm deoderant will make hot chicks want to have sex with me as I'm walking down the street.

That may seem trivial, but I don't think it is.  Everything I see in American marketing right now is geared towards believing in something larger than life.  We can have two SUVs, a mortgage, two kids, yearly trips to Disney World, and a retirement account while working reasonable hours at a middle class job, maintaining a loving, vibrant sexual relationship with our wife, taking the kids to baseball, soccer, afterschool clubs, and doctor visits which are conveniently paid for by insurance that only costs five dollars a month.   We can have relaxing getaways at day spas, drink only the best whiskey, and spend our spare time learning languages quickly and easily in our spare time with Rosetta Stone®.   While we're at it, we only need to look around to realize that America is the greatest nation on earth, and anyone who thinks that we aren't more educated, better looking, and all around better folks than those pesky non-Americans... well, they can go back to where they came from.  When we fall in love, it will be forever.  Love conquers all.  Family is the most important thing in life, but we owe it to ourselves to take some time and travel, to see the world.  We all deserve our own life, with our own acre and a half.  Technology will save us from anything bad we do.  There's plenty of oil left.  Global warming is a minor glitch in the pattern of climate change.  Sarah Palin's really smart.  Obama's unqualified.  We can eat burgers and fries, and with only a three payments of $39.95 a month, we can own the Super-Duper-Emperor-Quality-Ab-ernator which will give us rock star bodies with only twenty minutes a day, three times a week, during our spare time when we're not hanging with our family, devoting all our free time to raising well adjusted kids, being a devoted spouse and lover, calling mom and dad daily, and recycling everything in sight.

[GASP]

Yeah... you know, there are times when I believe that Americans believe more lies than truths, on balance.

 

I always sum up the cause of all that with: "Unrealistic expectations."

Critical thinking skills are in short supply, and often frowned upon - I suspect in no small part because the answers they lead to are less than comfortable.

Americans tend to be "axiomic" in how we assemble knowledge. My suspicions lie with the rote-learning style public schools used to use in the late 60s and 70s. Even after those curriculums were exchanged, the new ones still had elements of it. And there was two generations of people around then who were already thinking that way. Rote learning dovetails children's natural tendency to accept what adults have to say without question, of course, making it good for passing on facts - but the now obvious down side is that it doesn't at all teach active skills like seeking knowledge on one's own and sorting truth from fiction. Plus the really disastrous flaw: when those "facts" being taught are wrong.

Curriculums still try to be about regurgitation of facts - this makes for improved standard testing scores. So folks are reaching adulthood still with weak active skills, but fairly good (if sometimes outdated) static facts. Thank goodness there is increasing effort put into active skills.

So, we're still open to axiomic thinking for that rote learning. We take what we see on the news as fact, and choose news sources based on how well their facts match facts we already have. We even choose entertainment based on an axiomic outlook. Advertisers know this and arrange to wiggle their bait in the best waters for their wares, and they gussy up their packaging and ads with little factoids to play into that kind of thinking.

And so, we have this barrage of ideas filtered by how well they match previous ideas, little of it actually viewed critically. And when we look to the future, we base our expectations on these uncritical axioms.

Unrealistic expectations.

Thank goodness I'm immune. Now, please pardon me. I have to go mix up a 32 ounce chocolate and strawberry flavored milkshake for lunch - I'm excited about lunches now, as the shake is going to make me thin and shapely like the model on the front of the box who is not only 25 years my junior but also spends 3-4 hours every day in a professional level gym burning thousands of calories a day to maintain herself for these photo shoots.

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Oh, that one.

MattShizzle wrote:
The ridiculous idea that the astronauts never really landed on the moon and the whole thing was a hoax

Of course! NASA's mission is not to explore the universe, but is a complex conspiracy invented by evil scientists to lure people away from Jesus. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Quote:Americans do seem

Quote:

Americans do seem particularly susceptible to the belief in the absurd.  Religion came before TV, so I'm going to put the lion's share of the blame on religion, but we can't discount TV and advertising.  I mean, hell... I'm supposed to believe that a particular variety of underarm deoderant will make hot chicks want to have sex with me as I'm walking down the street.

That may seem trivial, but I don't think it is.  Everything I see in American marketing right now is geared towards believing in something larger than life.  We can have two SUVs, a mortgage, two kids, yearly trips to Disney World, and a retirement account while working reasonable hours at a middle class job, maintaining a loving, vibrant sexual relationship with our wife, taking the kids to baseball, soccer, afterschool clubs, and doctor visits which are conveniently paid for by insurance that only costs five dollars a month.   We can have relaxing getaways at day spas, drink only the best whiskey, and spend our spare time learning languages quickly and easily in our spare time with Rosetta Stone®.   While we're at it, we only need to look around to realize that America is the greatest nation on earth, and anyone who thinks that we aren't more educated, better looking, and all around better folks than those pesky non-Americans... well, they can go back to where they came from.  When we fall in love, it will be forever.  Love conquers all.  Family is the most important thing in life, but we owe it to ourselves to take some time and travel, to see the world.  We all deserve our own life, with our own acre and a half.  Technology will save us from anything bad we do.  There's plenty of oil left.  Global warming is a minor glitch in the pattern of climate change.  Sarah Palin's really smart.  Obama's unqualified.  We can eat burgers and fries, and with only a three payments of $39.95 a month, we can own the Super-Duper-Emperor-Quality-Ab-ernator which will give us rock star bodies with only twenty minutes a day, three times a week, during our spare time when we're not hanging with our family, devoting all our free time to raising well adjusted kids, being a devoted spouse and lover, calling mom and dad daily, and recycling everything in sight.

*Chokes from gagging while simultaneously laughing so hard he almost cries*

It's like ghost-writing Willie Loman.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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Quote:It's like

Quote:
It's like ghost-writing Willie Loman.

Curious... that was one of my favorite assigned readings in high school.  I found that I identified with Willie more than was comfortable for me.  Maybe I should re-read it now that I'm older and substantially more jaded.  Then, I'll re-read 1984 and try to drink enough gin to induce a coma.

(No, I'm not feeling depressed or suicidal.  The above is context related humor of the darkest variety.  I'm in quite a pleasant mood, actually.)

 

 

 

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Another thing is our

Another thing is our scientists and such are just as intelligent and rational as those in Europe or Japan, but when it comes to the average man or woman on the street, our people are way less knowledgable in science, less capable of critical thinking, and more likely to believe stupid things.

 

By the way, in todays paper the letters to the editor section was all from students. One was saying the LHC shouldn't have been built because it costs too much and could destroy the Earth (or maybe just destroy France. ) I posted on their website a comment to it - so far all comments are pointing out the idiocy of this belief:

 

HERE

Guess that's a good sign at least.

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Quote:Another thing is our

Quote:
Another thing is our scientists and such are just as intelligent and rational as those in Europe or Japan, but when it comes to the average man or woman on the street, our people are way less knowledgable in science, less capable of critical thinking, and more likely to believe stupid things.

And this all goes back to a total lack of critical thinking in the school curriculum.  Any school curriculum.  Hell, I didn't get a lot of it in college through two degrees.  I had to learn most of it myself.

As JillSwift very eloquently pointed out, credulity is much easier when we've been taught that facts are things to be memorized and repeated, rather than sought out and discovered.

Wow... I like that.  I think I've got myself a new sig.

 

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That's true that there is

That's true that there is way too much emphasis on rote memorization and "busy work" in schools. And No Child Left Behind has made it worse.

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MattShizzle wrote:They deny

MattShizzle wrote:

They deny Pearl Harbor ever happened?????? Or do you mean the ones who say it was left to happen?

Sorry, I'm not always the fastest to respond...

They deny it happened the way the 'official' story reports it. Saying that it couldn't have been torpedoes that sank the Arizona or something like that, etc. I'll have to go look again to mine out some other gems, as I kind of just started hearing 'blah blah blah' after a few sentences and don't remember all of the details.


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They went to the moon.

They went to the moon. People like to create urban legends.


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http://stuffucanuse.com/fake_

http://stuffucanuse.com/fake_moon_landings/moon_landings.htm

What more proof do you need? Seriously.


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What took you guys so long

I too seek clarification. I've never heard of a Pearl Harbor denial. Impressive. It only takes 50 years for someone to turn reality into fiction now. Progress...I suppose....

What took you guys so long????

It has taken you guys 2000 years to turn the reality of Jesus Christ as existing and walking on this planet . . . into fiction.  These guys really did get busy.  In only 50 years people really deny that Pearl Harbor happened and it has taken you guys 2000 year to get people to buy into what you are proposing???  Y'all need to do some more work.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


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*face-palm*

*face-palm*

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"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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REVLyle wrote:It has taken

REVLyle wrote:
It has taken you guys 2000 years to turn the reality of Jesus Christ as existing and walking on this planet . . . into fiction.  These guys really did get busy.  In only 50 years people really deny that Pearl Harbor happened and it has taken you guys 2000 year to get people to buy into what you are proposing???  Y'all need to do some more work.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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REVLyle wrote:I too seek

REVLyle wrote:

I too seek clarification. I've never heard of a Pearl Harbor denial. Impressive. It only takes 50 years for someone to turn reality into fiction now. Progress...I suppose....

What took you guys so long????

It has taken you guys 2000 years to turn the reality of Jesus Christ as existing and walking on this planet . . . into fiction.  These guys really did get busy.  In only 50 years people really deny that Pearl Harbor happened and it has taken you guys 2000 year to get people to buy into what you are proposing???  Y'all need to do some more work.

You seem to be spectacularly good at getting things completely backwards.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Pearl Harbor = FactMoon

Pearl Harbor = Fact

Moon Landings = Fact

God = Fiction

Demons & Angels = Fiction

It proves humans by their very nature love to fantasize and make up stories that try and make this world a more exciting place than it really is; from a conspiracy theorist and sci-fi point of view right enough because any rational person will accept the proven facts in front of them and not follow blindly on faith or word of mouth alone. It must be frustrating being a Christian knowing their logic is not sound and has no basis to it. The fact christians are attacking Evolution shows they are clutching at straws to prove science wrong. All science needs to do is keep doing what it has always done...searched for the truth to enhance our knowledge based on experiments & EVIDENCE.

However science does not need to prove the bible right in anyway, in fact even if evolution is wrong, science will admit that and always search for meaningful answers bases on sound evidence or the best theory. Simply because we do not know how something works therefore it's either a miracle or religious in nature is not good enough for science and/or the rational mind. The Christian argument is all based on faith without any need of proof because the bible proves nothing, it's been edited and written over thousands of years and no doubt has important pages missing...or maybe that's another conspiracy theory. \m/

I've said before that I am always astounded by western christians because they are supporting a religion that was forced upon their ancestors by brutal and horrific means. The only reason people from the UK for instance believe in catholicism is because it was brought to the UK from another country, but over time they conveniently forgot all the nasty stuff it caused when it was forced upon people because religious people do not want to see reason or the horrors that religion can bring, even though historical evidence is there, they would rather believe a largely sci-fi novel called the bible.

 

 

 

I might believe in a god/goddess if he/she grows an amputee's limb back via prayer or faith healing etc...now that would be a miracle, temporary fixes are no good to us god...we want results.

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ok, this is only half

ok, this is only half on-topic, but i have to ask:

does anyone else remember a short film that aired on saturday night live about 8 years ago which shows neil armstrong as an old man (i think it was the actual neil armstrong) and lets you hear what he's thinking as he goes about the course of a normal day?  and all he's thinking constantly is stuff like, "i did it.  i went to the freakin' moon."  at the end of the film, he's making love to his wife and screams, "ONE GIANT LEAP FOR MANKIND!" and she pushes him off and says something like, "get over it, neil," and he says, "no way."  then he goes outside, looks up at the moon, and says, "you sweet bitch, you ruined me."

does anybody else remember this???  i've never seen it since and i can never find it on youtube or anything.  i'm beginning to think i dreamed it.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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MattShizzle wrote:I know he

MattShizzle wrote:

I know he gets pissed off - by them saying that they are calling him a liar.

 

I know you should always take pedia with a pinch of salt but:

Aldrin graduated third in his class in 1951 from West Point with a B.Sc. degree. He wascommissioned as a Second Lieutenant and served as a jet fighter pilot in the U.S. Air Forceduring the Korean War, where he flew 66 combat missions in F-86 Sabres and shot down twoMikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 aircraft

 

This is not the kind of man you call a liar, if you want to keep your face that is.

I think he showed remarkable restraint considering what he could have done to him.

 


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nigelTheBold wrote:In

nigelTheBold wrote:
In the case of the moon-landing-hoax crowd, there's one simple question: What's the purpose of faking the moon landing? I've heard it's because it was too complex to actually get to the moon. Hogswallop, I say. Where's the evidence for that?

This is rather a good point. Show me the evidence. However, it is not good enough. The hoax crowd thinks that they have already shown the evidence and any attempt to debunk the so-called evidence is proof that one is part of the conspiracy. Tin foil hat proof but never the less, it is seen as proof. Um, I was 5 years old at the time of Apollo 11, so how am I part of the conspiracy?

In any case, the hoax crowd has to do more that just show a fancy fake documentary to establish that what they are saying has any shred of truth to it. They need to say exactly why we did not go to the moon and when did we stop trying.

Having read up extensively on the matter, here is a sketch of the events that led to the effort:

1957: The Soviets launched Sputnik 1. Much anguish was felt in the Eisenhower White House.

Shortly thereafter, a series of meetings were held to discuss what America was going to do in response. Again, much anguish was the result as no matter what, we would be playing a game of catch-up to the Soviet Union and if/when we did surpass them, it would be a nice feather in our cap but it would not be a major achievement on the world stage.

In fact, we actually were not that far behind the Soviet Union and we did start doing real work in space in as little as four months later. However, there was still the element of catching up to deal with. By 1961, Vostok 1 took the first man once around the world, another first for the Soviets. Much anguish was felt in the Kennedy White House and a series of meetings were called to see what we were going to do.

Here is where the real history of the moon program begins.

Kennedy wanted a real and major accomplishment for America that the Soviets could not beat and he used his incredible force of will to insist that his advisors give him one. At this point, it would do well to remember that we are still playing catch-up and that it looks like we will for a very long time.

Enter Werner Von Braun.

Basically, Von Braun made a powerful case to President Kennedy that no matter what, the US would be playing catch-up even given an effort on a massive scale. If memory serves, Von Braun used the building of the Panama Canal as the standard for what had to be done. In any case, the next targets that were of interest to the rocketry community were technical milestones that, while important in themselves, would not be likely to serve as the major score that Kennedy wanted (even if we were the first to each of them).

At this point, President Kennedy asked Werner Von Braun what he could give him. To which came the reply that if he was given the ability to do the many smaller things, it would be possible to extend the reach of the USA incrementally to the point where it would be simple enough to make each next step in it's turn and before the decade was out, we could go to the moon.

This in turn led to the 1962 speech at Rice University where President Kennedy basically announced that we were going to the moon.

I would hope that the hoax advocates do not dispute this much, as the Rice University speech unquestionably happened.

Following this, the early space race consisted of (at least on the part of the USA) a series on incremental steps, each one doing just a bit more than what came before.

First we send an astronaut straight up and down.

Then we send an astronaut around around the world (first once then several times).

Then we do some space walks.

Then we do orbital rendezvous and docking.

Then we do higher orbits.

Then we do (unmanned) lunar orbits.

And so on, each mission being one more step on the path that eventually takes us to the moon.

I will say this again to the Hoax advocates:

Show me exactly where in this series of steps we decided to stop trying and exactly why. If you do not have that, you have nothing.

 

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Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

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this whole thread reminds me

this whole thread reminds me of one of my favorite family guy exchanges:

Peter: You know that whole Vietnam thing? Never happened.
Brian: Oh yeah, but don't mention it around the Veterans Hospital. Those guys are really committed to the lie.

 

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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REVLyle wrote:I too seek

REVLyle wrote:

I too seek clarification. I've never heard of a Pearl Harbor denial. Impressive. It only takes 50 years for someone to turn reality into fiction now. Progress...I suppose....

What took you guys so long????

It has taken you guys 2000 years to turn the reality of Jesus Christ as existing and walking on this planet . . . into fiction.  These guys really did get busy.  In only 50 years people really deny that Pearl Harbor happened and it has taken you guys 2000 year to get people to buy into what you are proposing???  Y'all need to do some more work.

Nah, Rev.  Paul and the writers of the Gospels did more for the fiction of Jesus Christ than I ever could. To call Jesus a reality, you need that nasty, annoying stuff called evidence.

Got any yet?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Er, well... I actually hold

Er, well... I actually hold to the belief that what happened at Pearl Harbor was entirely known about in advance. Australian intelligence was given to the president, showing that Japanese crafts were headed for the base... and nothing was done about it. 

 

There's more evidence for why this is true, but I'm lazy. If anyone cares, I guess I can go looking for it.

 


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MattShizzle wrote:The

MattShizzle wrote:

The ridiculous idea that the astronauts never really landed on the moon and the whole thing was a hoax is another popular idea with the "woo woo" crowd. I would thik it was too absurd normally to address, but according to a recent Mythbusters episode (where they PWNED some of the more common arguments for this rubbish) an incredible 20% of Americans believe the moon landing was a hoax. This is so popular and so idiotic I think it would make a great episode of the show (especially if you could get an astronaut who actually was on the moon as a guest - they are understandably pissed off by being called liars. ) Any opinions on this? Is this just another example of human stupidity?

The moon landing was fake.  IT was all done by me in my basement.  Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...... 


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Been awhile since I saw this

Been awhile since I saw this topic rise to the forefront.

Carpe_Omnis wrote:

Er, well... I actually hold to the belief that what happened at Pearl Harbor was entirely known about in advance. Australian intelligence was given to the president, showing that Japanese crafts were headed for the base... and nothing was done about it. 

 

There's more evidence for why this is true, but I'm lazy. If anyone cares, I guess I can go looking for it.

 

Pearl Harbour was so fucked up I'm not sure what I believe about it. I remember learning that the Japanese had actually declared war before the attack, but due to a translation error they fucked up the time to declare by 12 hours, which of course meant that by the time the declaration of war was announced, the attack was already over. This to add to what you mention, and a whole bunch of other shit I'm not so sure about, and won't be declassified for another 30 odd years at least.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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FDR's administration was,

FDR's administration was, according to most intelligence sources, relayed the warning from Australian intelligence of a Japanese strike force that appeared to be headed in Pearl's direction.

 

Now, I used to be of the opinion that this strongly implied that FDR simply let the attack occur in order to garner the support he needed to fund an intervention in the European theatre (Roosevelt was rather eager to do something about the deteriorating situation overseas, for obvious and hardly malicious reasons - but the American public at the time was not supportive of joining what sounded like a very violent and dangerous situation (because, well, it was) ). However, one must admit that there are many possibilities, and that this scenario is only one. It could be that the intelligence was lost; it could be that it was intercepted by Japanese counter-intelligence; it could be that the defense department did not think the intelligence was credible; etc.

 

Quote:
They deny it happened the way the 'official' story reports it. Saying that it couldn't have been torpedoes that sank the Arizona or something like that, etc. I'll have to go look again to mine out some other gems, as I kind of just started hearing 'blah blah blah' after a few sentences and don't remember all of the details.

The Arizona wasn't torpedoed, so anyone who claims that 'torpedoes couldn't have sunk her' (they're correct; Arizona was a Pennsylvania-class battleship, arguably the most rugged and durable class of battleship ever conceived, designed to be bracketed by a full salvo of torpedoes while screen flat tops and remain afloat) is making a straw man argument. Arizona was ripped in half when an exceptionally lucky bomb from a Kate strike hit her forward magazine, resulting in a catastrophic explosion:

(To get an appreciation for the scale, measure the explosion with your thumb and little finger, and then compare that to the entire aft section of the ship - and bear in mind that these vessels were some 185 metres in length!)

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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short

I haven't seen this skit, someone else described it to me a long time ago. I've been trying to find it online and found no mention of it until now. I'd always thought it was an SNL skit so I always typed that in. Weird that it isn't online. Let me know it you ever find it.

 

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