Intolerance

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Intolerance

I just don't understand your point...

Extremism is bad, fundamentalist are bad. I hate when a Christian says that Muslim are retarded or Buddhists are wrong... By the way, i believe that all paths lead to God.

Then, I don't like when Atheist think they own the truth... You see, you try to understand God with human logic, which is very limited...

VERY limited. First of all, because you seem to think that believers are only bible christian readers, sticked to the point, unable to think by themselves.

Well that is wrong. Some people worship God because of the air they breathe, of the love they receive, of their happinest and that is all.

I am not a Christian, but I've read the bible. I am not a Muslim, but I've read the Coran. I'm not a Buddhist, but i'm reading the tibetan book of the dead. And i believe that if God is perfect, he is way better than all the point of view humans have on him.

I use my intelligence, my logic, to fully understand what God means. You see, if the divine fulfilled us with intelligence, why wouldn't he want us to use it?

If you tell me that your "crusade"(irony) is against fundamentalism, I would understand, cause in united states, there's a lot of dumbass who cannot think by themselves.

But noboby told me how to think. Nobody revealed me the truth. I just saw God existence is in little things around me. When I smoke pot, I feel closer to Him (that's Rastafarian...) Sticking out tongue

My second point is about your prejudices.

If you want to be logical, and I understand that's your only preoccupation, then why being so doctrinal? Christians, and that's a calamity, are subject to dogmas. When I read your topics, I feel you are too. You're a little close minded. You are intolerant about God.

You see, some people feel good to believe in God. They dont fear him. They love him, and feel love back.

I want to refer to your topic on Pascal's Wager. First, this has nothing to do with christianity. It just tries to answer on the large question of God existence. No confessions involved. Second, it is true that you lose nothing believing that God isn't real... You could say that you lost time worshiping, but that would be from a prejudice. Someone you think He exist doesn't feel like losing his time worshipping, he just feel great.

My third point is about knowledge.

You don't know anything about Him. An argument frequently incountered is that God would prevent bad thing to happen if he really exist. Well, if he exist, why would he be submitted to HUMAN moral?

The problem is, because who don't believe in God, you think human intelligence is the higher thing ever being. But has a theist, I believe God maybe knows best. Try to prove me I'm wrong...

My last point is on faith.

Have in ever being loved by somebody? I love my girlfriend! And she tells me very often that she loves me too. But I don't have a material proof of it. I just got to believe her. I just got to believe that if I love her, then she loves me too. She has done bad things to me... sometimes she made me cried, but throught it all, I have faith in her love.

It's the same about God. I don't have a material proof of His love, just feelings, intuition. Sometime it's hard to believe, sometime I even feel like he's letting me down. But I have faith in Him.

You see, faith isn't illogical. It's what made your parents think they might have a baby. Faith makes the world go round. Not just faith in God, but faith in your friends, in your parents, in your lover, in governement... maybe I cannot prove the existence of a Supreme being, but I can prove faith existence.

Don't reduce God to traditionnal christian explanation. They just try to explain him the best they can, which is not enough... maybe God is someone playing Sims 2 with us, and some people just got bad players.

Or maybe I am God for the community of my celluls and atoms, and I'm just a little part of a GIANT being... like the intro in one episode of the Simpsons, where universe is on the head of Homer.

You see, God has many faces, and you can't prove he doesn't exist by reading the bible and asking 99 questions on the contradictions it contains. Cause I believe in Him, and I don't necessary rely to the bible... I can rely to all holy book, to philosophy too... maybe to science, which offers a great bunch of contradictions too...

I'm open to your point of view, and I respect your fight against extremism and irrational and unquestionned belief.

But respect mine, cause my faith is based on perpetual questionnements, on a desire to learn from other cultures, from others points of view.

Knowledge comes with death release, wrote David Bowie

Your brain is God, wrote Timothy Leary

I hope you went throught all my post before telling me i'm a irrationnal God-lover

My faith is based on comprehension of the world around, if God created us from his/her image (i should use "her" more often when I talk about god) then understanding the world and all it's cultures should help me understand Her.

Hindouists are right, Buddhists are right, Christians are right, Muslims are right, Jews are right, Mormons are right, I am right and you are too... that is what I understand by the perfection of God, he can be everything... or nothing, but She is always there... you put all your effort proving he doesn't exist. But by doing it, you make God present... you make Her there...

{MOD EDIT: No theist posts in Freethinking Anonymous, please.}


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First of all, the

First of all, the "Freethinker's Anonymous" forum is reserved for atheists.

Second: What utter claptrap! Trying to claim "everyone is right!" is nothing short of intellectual laziness. And worse, you then contradict yourself by saying that atheism is not right. To cap it all off, you make the very typical mistake of thinking we spend our time trying to disprove "god", when in fact the simple fact is: There's no evidence for "god". We don't have to spend any more time disproving "god" than we do disproving Santa Claus, faeries, or the creature from the black lagoon.

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Many atheists are fully

Many atheists are fully aware that by arguing their case they ironically risk reinforcing the characterisation of the focus of theist delusion. Some decide on that basis never to argue. Others decide that it is still a risk worth taking since to do otherwise is to accommodate "the elephant in the room" to their own and others' detriment.

 

But what you have failed to grasp about the logic of atheist argument is that it is motivated by the effects of theism rather than the causes, and this is primarily because those effects are far-reaching, detrimental in many ways to the welfare of society, and insidiously applied in a manner which subverts and contradicts humanitarian goals.

 

Your post would seem to indicate that you are one of those theists who, through disassociating their perceived god from all traditional characterisations, have rescued it from attack. As an atheist I can only say that I do not care how you present your god to me, since it is a figment of your imagination you can do what you want with it. But don't ever insinuate that I should share it with you.

 

Incidentally as a theist you're on the wrong forum here. Don't be surprised if your post gets moved to another one. This forum is supposedly reserved for rational people (though you'd be hard put to believe it sometimes!).

I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy


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I really wanna be the first

I really wanna be the first person to respond to this, because I suspect that you'll get alot of "not this shit again" and some rather snide returns on this one. Now, maybe you deserve some snide remarks, because, as I hope to point out, you are setting up a bit of a strawman here, and people might feel like you are attacking them on how you percieve the RRS, and not how they are, and they might be even be right, but I for one, get where you are coming from so I hope that while it will probably take me 30 minutes to write this (it always does...) I'll still be the first response.

Gnostic wrote:

I just don't understand your point...

Extremism is bad, fundamentalist are bad.

Then you do get "our" point, because that's it.

Gnostic wrote:
I hate when a Christian says that Muslim are retarded or Buddhists are wrong... By the way, i believe that all paths lead to God.

And this is a difficult thing to object to. We have several Pantheists here (Cpt. Pinapple, Eloise, and ((sorta)) I Am God As You) and if you were a regular reader of these boards you'd notice that the "real" atheists here don't generally engage them in the same kind of debate as the fundies who come here. In truth they could be as right or as wrong as the rest of us. At that level of discussion it's about philosophical existentialism, linguistics, and language barriers, and about subjectivety vs. objectivity. A much more nuanced and mutual discussion.

Gnostic wrote:
Then, I don't like when Atheist think they own the truth... You see, you try to understand God with human logic, which is very limited...
I don't like that either. Nobody "owns" the truth as far as I'm concerned, but I think you'll find that's actually a commonly held opinion around here.
 
Gnostic wrote:
VERY limited. First of all, because you seem to think that believers are only bible christian readers, sticked to the point, unable to think by themselves.

Well that is wrong. Some people worship God because of the air they breathe, of the love they receive, of their happinest and that is all.
Well "some people" aren't the target of my indignation. Have you read the opening chapter of The God Delusion, about Einstein's God? When "God" becomes a question of linguistics. When "God" is just a word you use to poetically express awe of the universe, then what is there to object to? I certainly have little problem with that.

Gnostic wrote:
I am not a Christian, but I've read the bible. I am not a Muslim, but I've read the Coran. I'm not a Buddhist, but i'm reading the tibetan book of the dead. And i believe that if God is perfect, he is way better than all the point of view humans have on him.

I use my intelligence, my logic, to fully understand what God means. You see, if the divine fulfilled us with intelligence, why wouldn't he want us to use it?

Hear hear. As Galileo said: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use."

Gnostic wrote:
If you tell me that your "crusade"(irony) is against fundamentalism, I would understand, cause in united states, there's a lot of dumbass who cannot think by themselves.
And the RRS is founded in the US, and most members are Americans. And they are very tired of these "dumbasses" who cause very real problems for homosexuals, scientists, people who engage in pre-marrytal sex et.c. So maybe just a little understanding of where my American friends in the RRS are coming from, would get you to see that their "crusade" is indeed against fundementalism.

Gnostic wrote:
But noboby told me how to think. Nobody revealed me the truth.
Good for you! I mean that sincerely. Never give that up!

Gnostic wrote:
I just saw God existence is in little things around me. When I smoke pot, I feel closer to Him (that's Rastafarian...) Sticking out tongue
And if that's how you feel then you have my blessing. I don't see God anywhere, but if you don't think I am somehow emotionally stunted, or otherwise unfeeling, then you and I have no problem.

I am a very poetic, emotional person, and I will be insulted if you say I must somehow be spiritually impoverished, you know "cold" and "harsh" if I don't see God anywhere, but if we can agree that we are just using words differently to describe our awe of the universe, then you and I can be the best of friends.

Gnostic wrote:
My second point is about your prejudices.

If you want to be logical, and I understand that's your only preoccupation, then why being so doctrinal? Christians, and that's a calamity, are subject to dogmas. When I read your topics, I feel you are too. You're a little close minded. You are intolerant about God.
When addressing severe closed mindedness (like someone saying the world is 6000 years old), then it is very counterproductive to be very tolerant and openminded in return. You have to answer: "That is simply demonstrably wrong. To think the world is 6000 years old is no different from thinking it's flat".

If you say: "well, I don't think that the world is 6000 years old, but maybe it is, who knows, let's be openminded" then everything just breaks down... Nothing can be trusted to mean anything anymore. The reason the RRS sometimes are very blunt and direct about some things are because the thing they are arguing against is just outright silly. If we are discussing more philosophical, abstract positions, of course you have to be flexible and open-minded, and I think you'll find, that many, even most of the people here are.



Gnostic wrote:
You see, some people feel good to believe in God. They dont fear him. They love him, and feel love back.

I want to refer to your topic on Pascal's Wager. First, this has nothing to do with christianity. It just tries to answer on the large question of God existence. No confessions involved. Second, it is true that you lose nothing believing that God isn't real... You could say that you lost time worshiping, but that would be from a prejudice. Someone you think He exist doesn't feel like losing his time worshipping, he just feel great.

And is those people, that just love God, for themselves, very personally, and quietly, are confronted with an atheist, then maybe the atheist won't even notice that they are theists. And how could you object to it then? Of course noone here wants to take away people's own philosofical musings for the shear joy of watching them suffer. I have said it before, and I'll say it again: my objection to Religion is not what it asks, but what it answers.

Gnostic wrote:
My third point is about knowledge.

You don't know anything about Him. An argument frequently incountered is that God would prevent bad thing to happen if he really exist. Well, if he exist, why would he be submitted to HUMAN moral?

The problem is, because who don't believe in God, you think human intelligence is the higher thing ever being. But has a theist, I believe God maybe knows best. Try to prove me I'm wrong...

careful. "You think human intelligence is the highest thing ever" is a strawman. This is not the case. People here don't think humans are the greatest thing in the universe. They think human beings are a thing in the universe, period. No value applied to human intelligence from an objective point of view at least. Now, notice that many religious people think humans are the greatest things in the universe, and many here object to that very fact. So you are accusing people here of being exactly that which they don't like. So don't be surprised if the will be a little annoyed that you have misunderstood them.

Gnostic wrote:
My last point is on faith.

Have in ever being loved by somebody? I love my girlfriend! And she tells me very often that she loves me too. But I don't have a material proof of it. I just got to believe her. I just got to believe that if I love her, then she loves me too. She has done bad things to me... sometimes she made me cried, but throught it all, I have faith in her love.

But to me, that's not the same. Sure I have faith in the love of my friends, family and lovers, but I don't have "faith" that the world is round, or Armstrong walked on the Moon in 1968. I believe those things based on other things than emotional faith. And Religions of the world will almost always claim real things, like the shape of the Earth and real events that has happened (like Noah's flood). Again, my objection to religion is not what it asks, but what it answers.

Gnostic wrote:
It's the same about God. I don't have a material proof of His love, just feelings, intuition. Sometime it's hard to believe, sometime I even feel like he's letting me down. But I have faith in Him.

You see, faith isn't illogical. It's what made your parents think they might have a baby. Faith makes the world go round. Not just faith in God, but faith in your friends, in your parents, in your lover, in governement...
Yes, but not all faiths are justified. Look at it this way: I see fundementalist religion as a women who has faith in the love of her husband even though he cheats on her, and beats her up. It pains me to no end, and I can't just let her continue to allow herself to be abused in such a way, even though her faith is pure, and her intentions come from true affection.

Gnostic wrote:
maybe I cannot prove the existence of a Supreme being, but I can prove faith existence.
And I agree. We all have emotional faith in many things, like our friends and loved ones, but if you look at the above analogy to the abused wife, remember that not all faith brings goodness to the world, even when it is pure and loving.

Gnostic wrote:
Don't reduce God to traditionnal christian explanation.
We're not the ones doing that, the Christians are.
Gnostic wrote:
They just try to explain him the best they can, which is not enough...
I agree. They are doing it wrong. That's what the RRS is about.

Gnostic wrote:
maybe God is someone playing Sims 2 with us, and some people just got bad players.

Or maybe I am God for the community of my celluls and atoms, and I'm just a little part of a GIANT being... like the intro in one episode of the Simpsons, where universe is on the head of Homer.

And maybe not. You call yourself Gnostic. I call myself Agnostic, so as much as I like your examples, I reserve the right to say "maybe not"


Gnostic wrote:
I'm open to your point of view, and I respect your fight against extremism and irrational and unquestionned belief.

But respect mine, cause my faith is based on perpetual questionnements, on a desire to learn from other cultures, from others points of view.
That sounds like a very commendable position. Never stop questioning.

Gnostic wrote:
Knowledge comes with death release, wrote David Bowie

Your brain is God, wrote Timothy Leary

I hope you went throught all my post before telling me i'm a irrationnal God-lover

My faith is based on comprehension of the world around, if God created us from his/her image (i should use "her" more often when I talk about god) then understanding the world and all it's cultures should help me understand Her.

Hindouists are right, Buddhists are right, Christians are right, Muslims are right, Jews are right, Mormons are right, I am right and you are too... that is what I understand by the perfection of God, he can be everything... or nothing, but She is always there... you put all your effort proving he doesn't exist. But by doing it, you make God present... you make Her there..

I should end this now, because I've been writing for ages. Just know that I respect your pantheistic world view. I just think that you are making the mistake of thinking I don't agree with you because I am an atheist. I'm looking at the same world you are. I'm just describing it with slightly different words.

Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin


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Gnostic wrote:I just don't

Gnostic wrote:

I just don't understand your point...

Extremism is bad, fundamentalist are bad. I hate when a Christian says that Muslim are retarded or Buddhists are wrong... By the way, i believe that all paths lead to God.

Then, I don't like when Atheist think they own the truth... You see, you try to understand God with human logic, which is very limited...

VERY limited. First of all, because you seem to think that believers are only bible christian readers, sticked to the point, unable to think by themselves.

Well that is wrong. Some people worship God because of the air they breathe, of the love they receive, of their happinest and that is all.

I am not a Christian, but I've read the bible. I am not a Muslim, but I've read the Coran. I'm not a Buddhist, but i'm reading the tibetan book of the dead. And i believe that if God is perfect, he is way better than all the point of view humans have on him.

I use my intelligence, my logic, to fully understand what God means. You see, if the divine fulfilled us with intelligence, why wouldn't he want us to use it?

If you tell me that your "crusade"(irony) is against fundamentalism, I would understand, cause in united states, there's a lot of dumbass who cannot think by themselves.

But noboby told me how to think. Nobody revealed me the truth. I just saw God existence is in little things around me. When I smoke pot, I feel closer to Him (that's Rastafarian...) Sticking out tongue

My second point is about your prejudices.

If you want to be logical, and I understand that's your only preoccupation, then why being so doctrinal? Christians, and that's a calamity, are subject to dogmas. When I read your topics, I feel you are too. You're a little close minded. You are intolerant about God.

You see, some people feel good to believe in God. They dont fear him. They love him, and feel love back.

I want to refer to your topic on Pascal's Wager. First, this has nothing to do with christianity. It just tries to answer on the large question of God existence. No confessions involved. Second, it is true that you lose nothing believing that God isn't real... You could say that you lost time worshiping, but that would be from a prejudice. Someone you think He exist doesn't feel like losing his time worshipping, he just feel great.

My third point is about knowledge.

You don't know anything about Him. An argument frequently incountered is that God would prevent bad thing to happen if he really exist. Well, if he exist, why would he be submitted to HUMAN moral?

The problem is, because who don't believe in God, you think human intelligence is the higher thing ever being. But has a theist, I believe God maybe knows best. Try to prove me I'm wrong...

My last point is on faith.

Have in ever being loved by somebody? I love my girlfriend! And she tells me very often that she loves me too. But I don't have a material proof of it. I just got to believe her. I just got to believe that if I love her, then she loves me too. She has done bad things to me... sometimes she made me cried, but throught it all, I have faith in her love.

It's the same about God. I don't have a material proof of His love, just feelings, intuition. Sometime it's hard to believe, sometime I even feel like he's letting me down. But I have faith in Him.

You see, faith isn't illogical. It's what made your parents think they might have a baby. Faith makes the world go round. Not just faith in God, but faith in your friends, in your parents, in your lover, in governement... maybe I cannot prove the existence of a Supreme being, but I can prove faith existence.

Don't reduce God to traditionnal christian explanation. They just try to explain him the best they can, which is not enough... maybe God is someone playing Sims 2 with us, and some people just got bad players.

Or maybe I am God for the community of my celluls and atoms, and I'm just a little part of a GIANT being... like the intro in one episode of the Simpsons, where universe is on the head of Homer.

You see, God has many faces, and you can't prove he doesn't exist by reading the bible and asking 99 questions on the contradictions it contains. Cause I believe in Him, and I don't necessary rely to the bible... I can rely to all holy book, to philosophy too... maybe to science, which offers a great bunch of contradictions too...

I'm open to your point of view, and I respect your fight against extremism and irrational and unquestionned belief.

But respect mine, cause my faith is based on perpetual questionnements, on a desire to learn from other cultures, from others points of view.

Knowledge comes with death release, wrote David Bowie

Your brain is God, wrote Timothy Leary

I hope you went throught all my post before telling me i'm a irrationnal God-lover

My faith is based on comprehension of the world around, if God created us from his/her image (i should use "her" more often when I talk about god) then understanding the world and all it's cultures should help me understand Her.

Hindouists are right, Buddhists are right, Christians are right, Muslims are right, Jews are right, Mormons are right, I am right and you are too... that is what I understand by the perfection of God, he can be everything... or nothing, but She is always there... you put all your effort proving he doesn't exist. But by doing it, you make God present... you make Her there...

{MOD EDIT: No theist posts in Freethinking Anonymous, please.}

Hi Gnostic! Welcome to the Rational Response Squad forum. Are you the same Gnostic in the stickam chat last night during the show? If so, thanks for dropping by! If not, thanks for dropping by  Smiling

 

Could you explain the god that you believe all religions lead to?

Gnostic wrote:

....VERY limited. First of all, because you seem to think that believers are only bible christian readers, sticked to the point, unable to think by themselves.

I will assume that you haven't been around here much or visited the show often. As the majority of our visitors are from the U.S., we tend to have very heavy Christian traffic here to the message boards as well as Stickam. What you believe to be our limited human undestanding is nothing but an opinion you have formed on limited information yourself...I believe many of us here would think anyone that allows religion to run their lives and the lives of others is unable to think for themselves, not just Christians. As for people worshipping god for breathing, loving and happiness...I for one thank my body and mind for all of that.

Gnostic wrote:

I am not a Christian, but I've read the bible. I am not a Muslim, but I've read the Coran. I'm not a Buddhist, but i'm reading the tibetan book of the dead. And i believe that if God is perfect, he is way better than all the point of view humans have on him

This is a bit funny because I can say : I have read the bible, am in the middle of plodding through the Qur'an...and I am not Christian or Muslim either! I believe that the god depicted in these books is one that is cruel, selfish and a bully. I am amazed that the way humans view god is one of awe, wonder and devotion.

Gnostic wrote:

I use my intelligence, my logic, to fully understand what God means. You see, if the divine fulfilled us with intelligence, why wouldn't he want us to use it?

So you use an intelligence which a divine being instilled in you to understand that divine being? Why would you have to use your own logic, why didn't that divine being just 'make you know'?

 

I will respond to the second point a bit later. Please respond to my replies, don't be one of those one time posters who dump and run Smiling

Thanks!

 

Slowly building a blog at ~

http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/


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Xlint replies you lovers!

Xlint replies you lovers! Can't add much to that.

This I really like - "Well "some people" aren't the target of my indignation. Have you read the opening chapter of The God Delusion, about Einstein's God? When "God" becomes a question of linguistics. When "God" is just a word you use to poetically express awe of the universe, then what is there to object to? I certainly have little problem with that." ~ Nikolaj

  And so my spelling, G awe D ....

 I need to clarify: Atheist word twister preacher me, is a strict materialist. I disagree using my small amount of science knowledge with many claiming to be pantheists ideas on the nature of consciousness. I do however appreciate pantheism's general lack of dogma, and it's simple definition of god being simply nature, which agrees with me saying "No Master, All is One." Dawkins says pantheism is sexed up atheism .... I suggest all idol worshipers check out pantheism.

Time is the most confusing thing for me, and have been trying to digest the saying, "All is Now" ....

Eloise is a favorite panentheist science philosophy teacher of mine, but I couldn't properly explain her god concept. She has poetically posted many interesting ideas and links. She recently suggested reading on "timeless model[s]" which I googled and booked marked.

Anyhow, to the OP .... RRS "saves", and is spreading the "good word" of atheism!

And may I dare say many consider the story jesus character, to be an atheistic/pantheistic jewish buddha philosophy nearly lost to religious dogma, innate fear, superstition and folklore. Occam's Razor, "all is one, I am god!" Umm, now WHAT ???? and cool buddha laughed    , then focused on how to end unnecessary suffering .... and jesus wept, OUCH, me too.

 


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 Normally Gnostic, I would

 Normally Gnostic, I would really enjoy answering and commenting but I'm afraid I simply dismissed your entire post once I saw these two glaringly direct contradictions....

Gnostic wrote:

Then, I don't like when Atheist think they own the truth... You see, you try to understand God with human logic, which is very limited...

... and then a few moments later....

Gnostic wrote:

I use my intelligence, my logic, to fully understand what God means. You see, if the divine fulfilled us with intelligence, why wouldn't he want us to use it?

Care to explain?


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Wonko wrote: Normally

Wonko wrote:

 Normally Gnostic, I would really enjoy answering and commenting but I'm afraid I simply dismissed your entire post once I saw these two glaringly direct contradictions....

... and then a few moments later....

Care to explain?

I can answer this for you.  He isnt being contradictory by saying "you try to understand God with human logic" and then saying "I use my intelligence, my logic, to fully understand what God means" because Gnostic is in fact... an alien.

So when he says he uses his intelligence, he is not using "human logic" - ta da!


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Dray wrote:Wonko

Dray wrote:

Wonko wrote:

 Normally Gnostic, I would really enjoy answering and commenting but I'm afraid I simply dismissed your entire post once I saw these two glaringly direct contradictions....

... and then a few moments later....

Care to explain?

I can answer this for you.  He isnt being contradictory by saying "you try to understand God with human logic" and then saying "I use my intelligence, my logic, to fully understand what God means" because Gnostic is in fact... an alien.

So when he says he uses his intelligence, he is not using "human logic" - ta da!

Me knewest there had to be an answer!


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I shall not say "fully",

I shall not say "fully", indeed.

Maybe just "the best I can"


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Gnostic wrote:I shall not

Gnostic wrote:

I shall not say "fully", indeed.

Maybe just "the best I can"

 

Which seems to be not very much at all.

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


butterbattle
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Aw, come on.

 

daedalus wrote:
Which seems to be not very much at all.

That's not very nice. There was nothing wrong with his statement.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Reply

I'd like to thank you for your replies, cause I like to argue:P

And I special thank to Nikolaj, who made me undersatnd the goal of this site, Renee, for her well asked questions, and butterballfor his comprehension...

It's sad that some people think they can answer a well constructed text on some well constructed ideas just by a "not that shit"... these people are exactly what I was refering to by the title of my post "Intolerance". Now, to not, as Renee said, "dump n run" I'll try to explain certain points.

JillSwift wrote:

Second: What utter claptrap! Trying to claim "everyone is right!" is nothing short of intellectual laziness.

No. It is laziness to close his mind to other ideas. I'm not lazy. Reading about God in every cultures and trying to find a pantheist (thanks to nikolaj for the word) point of view is everthing but lazy, it's a hard work... Being closed to other sayings, and reject them with a "claptrap" for answer, is, in fact, close-minded and lazy.

But I'll be more accurate on my conclusion. I just feel that the true God is not completely in the Bible, neither in the Coran or any book. These are just points of view. I feel too that the true God, is there is one, can maybe be found in the common carateriztics in all religions.

Which don't exclude atheism and it's humanitarian ideas. And the strange fact about atheism is that you cant try to kill God (like nietzsche would say) but God is still a central point in their lives. Trying to deny God just actualize the concept, which never completely disappear.

Anyway... I'm not lazy.

Renee Obsidianwords wrote:

This is a bit funny because I can say : I have read the bible, am in the middle of plodding through the Qur'an...and I am not Christian or Muslim either! I believe that the god depicted in these books is one that is cruel, selfish and a bully. I am amazed that the way humans view god is one of awe, wonder and devotion.

By saying I read those books, I didn't want to mean I'm a believer, and that non-believers are ignorants. Just that my belief, is not fundamentalist, but open-minded. Just to distance myself from brainwashed believers.

Of course, in some parts of the scriptures God is mad. But that is exactly what Jesus tried to change in Jews theology. Put away the mad god of his ancesters to depict a new one. God is love, wrote John. I think we got to put the scriptures in a historical context. In the Coran, there's a political, a juridical and a spiritual ideology. Political and juridical shall never being taken out of their historical context. Muhammed wanted to organize the arab society, to give them an organization. Same thing for the Old testament, were God dont act like a God, but more like a leader, a king, who applies justice. For sure, today, it seems, and it is, archaic. But if you filter the message, you still can find a spiritual message. A message on which time and history has no grasp. That's what i'm trying to do. But still, you can find in the New Testament, the Coran and the Buddhist ideology a message nearly liberal, that you can easily apply to our democratic world, which fit in it, or influenced it.

Renee Obsidianwords wrote:

So you use an intelligence which a divine being instilled in you to understand that divine being? Why would you have to use your own logic, why didn't that divine being just 'make you know'?

The Coran says that the signs are obivious for those who see. God let me know he exist every day. Would I believe some dude who just step up and says: Hi man, I'm God. Just look what they have done to Jesus Sticking out tongue

Of course I'm a believer, so maybe I'm more sensitive to all those "signs" and that argument has absolutely no grasp on you... That's why I'm doing all this, that's were my intelligence goes on, where I try to understand more rationally what I feel emotively.

That's all for 2d, I hope I'll have some good replies.

 


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Gnostic wrote:By saying I

Gnostic wrote:

By saying I read those books, I didn't want to mean I'm a believer, and that non-believers are ignorants. Just that my belief, is not fundamentalist, but open-minded. Just to distance myself from brainwashed believers.

Of course, in some parts of the scriptures God is mad. But that is exactly what Jesus tried to change in Jews theology. Put away the mad god of his ancesters to depict a new one. God is love, wrote John. I think we got to put the scriptures in a historical context. In the Coran, there's a political, a juridical and a spiritual ideology. Political and juridical shall never being taken out of their historical context. Muhammed wanted to organize the arab society, to give them an organization. Same thing for the Old testament, were God dont act like a God, but more like a leader, a king, who applies justice. For sure, today, it seems, and it is, archaic. But if you filter the message, you still can find a spiritual message. A message on which time and history has no grasp. That's what i'm trying to do. But still, you can find in the New Testament, the Coran and the Buddhist ideology a message nearly liberal, that you can easily apply to our democratic world, which fit in it, or influenced it.

Quote:
The Coran says that the signs are obivious for those who see. God let me know he exist every day. Would I believe some dude who just step up and says: Hi man, I'm God. Just look what they have done to Jesus Sticking out tongue

Of course I'm a believer, so maybe I'm more sensitive to all those "signs" and that argument has absolutely no grasp on you... That's why I'm doing all this, that's were my intelligence goes on, where I try to understand more rationally what I feel emotively.

That's all for 2d, I hope I'll have some good replies.

Neat.

I don't consider pantheism to be theism. Really, it is redefining the idea of "god" into reasonable terms. This god has nothing to do with the god of religion or even the magic of supernaturalism. At this point we have redefined god to mean "everything".

However, when we start to assign a personality, feelings, or motives to this idea it becomes the god of religion or the magic of supernaturalism. It is at this point that the idea of god becomes unreasonable and dangerous. It is at this point that we try to convince ourselves that there is something real other than what is real. We have to numb our higher function and superimpose fantasy on top of a fully functional reality.

This can and should aggitate some folks. Some of these folks will not be nice. Too bad.

Intolerance? I think that is a loose use of the word but even still. Superstitious beliefs should be combated. Believing reality isn't real is counterproductive. You want to feel good about reality? You want to give it names and assign warm feelings to it? Whatever blows your hair back. But when you start making things up some folks are going to call you on it. A good number of those folks are here on these boards.


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I would say the God in the

I would say the God in the New Testicle is even worse than the one in the Old - The Old Testicle god only would kill people that made him mad, not have them tortured forever.

 

BTW I use the "Not This Shit Again" picture when someone brings something up that has already been addressed many, many times here. And of course we can't kill god, anymore than you could kill the Tooth Fairy or Easter Bunny (and if you're a psycho don't go to the mall in April and shoot the guy dressed as the Easter Bunny - I mean the actual Bunny not someone portraying him. )

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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Yeah marc, "tolerant" or

Yeah marc, "tolerant" or understanding, as compassion and empathy? Appeasemnt of idol worship is not good. Is god tolerant,  not according to physics, nor to the "my way or the highway" story jesus, which says the laws of gawed are unchangeable and eternal. I don't read "love the enemy" as meaning appease.


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Gnostic wrote:No. It is

Gnostic wrote:
No. It is laziness to close his mind to other ideas. I'm not lazy. Reading about God in every cultures and trying to find a pantheist (thanks to nikolaj for the word) point of view is everthing but lazy, it's a hard work... Being closed to other sayings, and reject them with a "claptrap" for answer, is, in fact, close-minded and lazy.
I'm sorry, but the fact is that claiming everyone is right, when there are direct contradictions, lacks critical analysis and rushes to find a comfortable answer is the epitome of intellectual laziness.

Gnostic wrote:
But I'll be more accurate on my conclusion. I just feel that the true God is not completely in the Bible, neither in the Coran or any book. These are just points of view. I feel too that the true God, is there is one, can maybe be found in the common carateriztics in all religions.
Except that among all religions, what you end up with as a common factor is only one thing: a loose, ill-defined concept of something greater than the whole of the world. That fits Pantheism just fine, and I can appreciate Einsteinian Pantheism, I just don't see the need for the moniker "god", or any sense of worshipfulness for a pantheistic god.

Gnostic wrote:
Which don't exclude atheism and it's humanitarian ideas. And the strange fact about atheism is that you cant try to kill God (like nietzsche would say) but God is still a central point in their lives. Trying to deny God just actualize the concept, which never completely disappear.
"Never" is a big, big word. There isn't an actual need for the god hypotheses, it's more of a widespread cultural habit. An idea or meme planted so early in the minds of children that it's hard to frame the world without it. However, it's not impossible and in many places this meme is fading. It is likely that in a few centuries the meme will be little more than studies in history.

Gnostic wrote:
Anyway... I'm not lazy.
No one said you were. The argument was "lazy", meaning it was incomplete and jumped to a conclusion.

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray