Food for freethought

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Food for freethought

I originally posted this on your sister site, freethinkingteens.com out of ignorance.  I think it may be better suited for you guys.  I hope you enjoy.

 

As I'm sure many of you know, the Jewish people annually celebrate the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and have done so for about 3500 years now.  The Passover holiday is to commemorate the story told in Exodus Chapter 12, where God sent a destroying angel to kill all the firstborn children of Egypt.  God gave the people a way to get out of this horrible fate by telling them to sacrifice a lamb without blemish and rub its blood above their doorposts.  Do this, He said, and the destroyer will "Passover" your house. Now, Christians like myself will tell you that this Passover lamb was a "type" of Christ, meaning something in the Old Testament that eerily reminds us of the story of Jesus.  John the Baptist called Jesus the "Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."  The Book of Revelation calls Jesus "a Lamb that appeared to have been slain."  Just as the Passover lamb's blood protected all inside a house from the destroyer, so also does the blood of the Lamb of God protect all under it from the coming fiery judgment. But this is elementary.  I'm sure you've heard such things before, and, because you may not believe the stories of the Bible have a foundation in the real world, you have become quite tired of hearing about it.  What I want to talk about is the Passover feast itself, the one that has been celebrated for 3500 years by a people that rejects Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah foretold in their Scriptures. On the 14th day of the first month on the Jewish calendar, (which tends to be May on our calendars, theirs is based off of lunar cycles so it fluctuates) the Passover is celebrated.  Aside from eating the Passover lamb, who's bones are not to be broken, they also will sit down and eat specific, traditional foods that teach things from the story in Exodus 12.  For example, they'll eat a very hot horse-radish ground with beet juice to remind them of the bitterness of slavery in Egypt, then quickly eat sweet apples to take away the bitterness to symbolize the release from slavery.   While many aspects of the Passover celebration directly correlate to the story of Christ, (the bitterness, in the above, would symbolize the bitterness of the death of Christ on the cross, and the sweetness would be the sweetness of the resurrection) I won't go into all of those.  I'll instead skip ahead to the fourth step in the Jewish Passover feast (also called the seder) which is called the Yachatz.  During the Yachatz, three pieces of unleavened bread are put before the celebrants.  These pieces of unleavened bread are traditionally baked on pans with indentions and ripples on them, which gives the bread an appearance of having stripes and holes in it.  As the prophet Isaiah says in Chapter 52, "He was to be pierced for our transgressions...and by His stripes we are healed." So, they put these three pieces of striped and pierced unleavened bread in a linen basket they call the "Echad" and set it in the middle of the table.  This word "Echad" is used also in the Hebrew Old Testament.  It means "one" or "unity" in the Hebrew (Moses says in Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God is Echad&quotEye-wink  It's important to note that Jewish people are strict unitarians; they do not believe God is Triune. Now, the Yachatz proceeds as follows:  the father, or head of the household, takes the middle piece of bread out of the Echad.  He takes hold of the bread, which is called the Afikomen, and breaks it.  He then wraps it in linen and hides it away.  The children in the house then search for the Afikomen and when they find it they return it to their father.  The children don't just give it to him though, the father pays a ransom to get the Afikomen back, which is typically gifts or money or the like.  Everyone at the feast then eats a piece of the Afikomen. On the night Jesus Christ was betrayed, as He and His disciples ate what we call the Last Supper, they weren't just eating any old meal, they were celebrating the Passover.  When Jesus picked up the piece of bread and said, "Take, eat, this is My body broken for you," He was breaking the Afikomen.   The Jewish people have hardened their hearts to Jesus Christ.  They've celebrated this way for 3500 years and they still reject what I'm telling you.  It couldn't be more clear: the history of Christ is in their ancient tradition and Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah who takes away the sins of the world.  You likewise must not harden your hearts to Christ for the sake of trivial and disputable objections.  Consider what I've written, but don't take my word for it, look into it for yourself.  If you really want to think freely, seek the truth and the truth will make you free. 

 


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I can has paragraphs, plz?

I can has paragraphs, plz?


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If you respond in this

If you respond in this thread, and repost all of that with paragraphs, I promise I'll read every word and respond to it.  I absolutely refuse to read that monstrosity as it is.

Grammar school wasn't just to kill time until recess, folks.

 

Credulity is much easier to sustain when we've been taught that facts are things to be memorized and repeated, rather than sought out and discovered.
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It's not letting me edit,

It's not letting me edit, here:

As I'm sure many of you know, the Jewish people annually celebrate the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and have done so for about 3500 years now.  The Passover holiday is to commemorate the story told in Exodus Chapter 12, where God sent a destroying angel to kill all the firstborn children of Egypt.  God gave the people a way to get out of this horrible fate by telling them to sacrifice a lamb without blemish and rub its blood above their doorposts.  Do this, He said, and the destroyer will "Passover" your house. 

Now, Christians like myself will tell you that this Passover lamb was a "type" of Christ, meaning something in the Old Testament that eerily reminds us of the story of Jesus.  John the Baptist called Jesus the "Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."  The Book of Revelation calls Jesus "a Lamb that appeared to have been slain."  Just as the Passover lamb's blood protected all inside a house from the destroyer, so also does the blood of the Lamb of God protect all under it from the coming fiery judgment. 

But this is elementary.  I'm sure you've heard such things before, and, because you may not believe the stories of the Bible have a foundation in the real world, you have become quite tired of hearing about it.  What I want to talk about is the Passover feast itself, the one that has been celebrated for 3500 years by a people that rejects Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah foretold in their Scriptures. 

On the 14th day of the first month on the Jewish calendar, (which tends to be May on our calendars, theirs is based off of lunar cycles so it fluctuates) the Passover is celebrated.  Aside from eating the Passover lamb, who's bones are not to be broken, they also will sit down and eat specific, traditional foods that teach things from the story in Exodus 12.  For example, they'll eat a very hot horse-radish ground with beet juice to remind them of the bitterness of slavery in Egypt, then quickly eat sweet apples to take away the bitterness to symbolize the release from slavery.   

While many aspects of the Passover celebration directly correlate to the story of Christ, (the bitterness, in the above, would symbolize the bitterness of the death of Christ on the cross, and the sweetness would be the sweetness of the resurrection) I won't go into all of those.  I'll instead skip ahead to the fourth step in the Jewish Passover feast (also called the seder) which is called the Yachatz.  During the Yachatz, three pieces of unleavened bread are put before the celebrants.  These pieces of unleavened bread are traditionally baked on pans with indentions and ripples on them, which gives the bread an appearance of having stripes and holes in it.  As the prophet Isaiah says in Chapter 52, "He was to be pierced for our transgressions...and by His stripes we are healed." 

So, they put these three pieces of striped and pierced unleavened bread in a linen basket they call the "Echad" and set it in the middle of the table.  This word "Echad" is used also in the Hebrew Old Testament.  It means "one" or "unity" in the Hebrew (Moses says in Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God is Echad )  It's important to note that Jewish people are strict unitarians; they do not believe God is Triune. 

Now, the Yachatz proceeds as follows:  the father, or head of the household, takes the middle piece of bread out of the Echad.  He takes hold of the bread, which is called the Afikomen, and breaks it.  He then wraps it in linen and hides it away.  The children in the house then search for the Afikomen and when they find it they return it to their father.  The children don't just give it to him though, the father pays a ransom to get the Afikomen back, which is typically gifts or money or the like.  Everyone at the feast then eats a piece of the Afikomen. 

On the night Jesus Christ was betrayed, as He and His disciples ate what we call the Last Supper, they weren't just eating any old meal, they were celebrating the Passover.  When Jesus picked up the piece of bread and said, "Take, eat, this is My body broken for you," He was breaking the Afikomen.   

The Jewish people have hardened their hearts to Jesus Christ.  They've celebrated this way for 3500 years and they still reject what I'm telling you.  It couldn't be more clear: the history of Christ is in their ancient tradition and Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah who takes away the sins of the world.  You likewise must not harden your hearts to Christ for the sake of trivial and disputable objections.  Consider what I've written, but don't take my word for it, look into it for yourself.  If you really want to think freely, seek the truth and the truth will make you free. 


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Chriswithac wrote:The Jewish

Chriswithac wrote:
The Jewish people have hardened their hearts to Jesus Christ.  They've celebrated this way for 3500 years and they still reject what I'm telling you.  It couldn't be more clear: the history of Christ is in their ancient tradition and Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah who takes away the sins of the world.  You likewise must not harden your hearts to Christ for the sake of trivial and disputable objections.  Consider what I've written, but don't take my word for it, look into it for yourself.  If you really want to think freely, seek the truth and the truth will make you free. 
Oh.

Just another mindless appeal to emotion. As if telling us that one unfounded bit of fiction having some rather contrived resemblance to another book of unfounded fiction holds the slightest meaning for anyone who has not already eaten the applesauce and sipped the Koolaid.

We are afraid of the known and afraid of the unknown. That is our daily life and in that there is no hope, and therefore every form of philosophy, every form of theological concept, is merely an escape from the actual reality of what is. All outward forms of change brought about by wars, revolutions, reformations, laws and ideologies have failed completely to change the basic nature of man and therefore of society. - Thomas Jefferson


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You can go to a Passover

You can go to a Passover yourself and see that their tradtion is not "fiction."  Ask the Rabbis, it's what they've been doing for thousands of years.  You can likewise read the works of many 1st century historians and see that the crucifixtion of Jesus is not "fiction".


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Chriswithac wrote:You can go

Chriswithac wrote:
You can go to a Passover yourself and see that their tradtion is not "fiction."  Ask the Rabbis, it's what they've been doing for thousands of years.  You can likewise read the works of many 1st century historians and see that the crucifixtion of Jesus is not "fiction".
I've attended many Passover seders, as I had several Jewish freinds at University. I assure you that where the tradition is real (and I never said it wasn't) what it is based on is unfounded fiction.

And you can have a look at Rook's writings on this site to discover that there is a very strong argument that there was no historical Jesus. More unfounded fiction.

We are afraid of the known and afraid of the unknown. That is our daily life and in that there is no hope, and therefore every form of philosophy, every form of theological concept, is merely an escape from the actual reality of what is. All outward forms of change brought about by wars, revolutions, reformations, laws and ideologies have failed completely to change the basic nature of man and therefore of society. - Thomas Jefferson


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It's ok.  You did exactly

It's ok.  You did exactly what I wanted you to do.  (Read again... I asked you to repost it in this thread, not edit the original.  Clever of me, no?)

Quote:

As I'm sure many of you know, the Jewish people annually celebrate the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and have done so for about 3500 years now.  The Passover holiday is to commemorate the story told in Exodus Chapter 12, where God sent a destroying angel to kill all the firstborn children of Egypt.  God gave the people a way to get out of this horrible fate by telling them to sacrifice a lamb without blemish and rub its blood above their doorposts.  Do this, He said, and the destroyer will "Passover" your house. 

Now, Christians like myself will tell you that this Passover lamb was a "type" of Christ, meaning something in the Old Testament that eerily reminds us of the story of Jesus.  John the Baptist called Jesus the "Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."  The Book of Revelation calls Jesus "a Lamb that appeared to have been slain."  Just as the Passover lamb's blood protected all inside a house from the destroyer, so also does the blood of the Lamb of God protect all under it from the coming fiery judgment.

from: http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_1/kojiki.html

Quote:
The Beginning of the World

 

Before the heavens and the earth came into existence, all was a chaos, unimaginably limitless and without definite shape or form. Eon followed eon: then, lo! out of this boundless, shapeless mass something light and transparent rose up and formed the heaven. This was the Plain of High Heaven, in which materialized a deity called Ame-no-Minaka-Nushi-no-Mikoto (the Deity-of-the-August-Center-of-Heaven). Next the heavens gave birth to a deity named Takami-Musubi-no-Mikoto (the High-August-Producing-Wondrous-Deity), followed by a third called Kammi-Musubi-no-Mikoto (the Divine-Producing-Wondrous-Deity). These three divine beings are called the Three Creating Deities.

In the meantime what was heavy and opaque in the void gradually precipitated and became the earth, but it had taken an immeasurably long time before it condensed sufficiently to form solid ground. In its earliest stages, for millions and millions of years, the earth may be said to have resembled oil floating, medusa-like, upon the face of the waters. Suddenly like the sprouting up of a reed, a pair of immortals were born from its bosom. These were the Deity Umashi-Ashi-Kahibi-Hikoji-no-Mikoto (the Pleasant-Reed-Shoot-Prince-Elder-Deity) and the Deity Ame-no-Tokotachi-no-Mikoto (The Heavenly-Eternally-Standing-Deity). . . .

Many gods were thus born in succession, and so they increased in number, but as long as the world remained in a chaotic state, there was nothing for them to do. Whereupon, all the Heavenly deities summoned the two divine beings, Izanagi and Izanami, and bade them descend to the nebulous place, and by helping each other, to consolidate it into terra firma. "We bestow on you," they said, "this precious treasure, with which to rule the land, the creation of which we command you to perform." So saying they handed them a spear called Ama-no-Nuboko, embellished with costly gems. The divine couple received respectfully and ceremoniously the sacred weapon and then withdrew from the presence of the Deities, ready to perform their august commission.

Proceeding forthwith to the Floating Bridge of Heaven, which lay between the heaven and the earth, they stood awhile to gaze on that which lay below. What they beheld was a world not yet condensed, but looking like a sea of filmy fog floating to and fro in the air, exhaling the while an inexpressibly fragrant odor. They were, at first, perplexed just how and where to start, but at length Izanagi suggested to his companion that they should try the effect of stirring up the brine with their spear. So saying he pushed down the jeweled shaft and found that it touched something. Then drawing it up, he examined it and observed that the great drops which fell from it almost immediately coagulated into an island, which is, to this day, the Island of Onokoro.

Delighted at the result, the two deities descended forthwith from the Floating Bridge to reach the miraculously created island. In this island they thenceforth dwelt and made it the basis of their subsequent task of creating a country. Then wishing to become espoused, they erected in the center oPound the island a pillar, the Heavenly August Pillar, and built around it a great palace called the Hall of Eight Fathoms. Thereupon the male Deity turning to the left and the female Deity to the right, each went round the pillar in opposite directions. When they again met each other on the further side of the pillar, Izanami, the female Deity, speaking first, exclaimed: "How delightful it is to meet so handsome a youth!" To which Izanagi, the male Deity, replied: "How delightful I am to have fallen in with such a lovely maiden!"

After having spoken thus, the male Deity said that it was not in order that woman should anticipate man in a greeting. Nevertheless, they fell into connubial relationship, having been instructed by two wagtails which flew to the spot. Presently the Goddess bore her divine consort a son, but the baby was weak and boneless as a leech. Disgusted with it, they abandoned it on the waters, putting it in a boat made of reeds. Their second offspring was as disappointing as the first. The two Deities, now sorely disappointed at their failure and full of misgivings, ascended to Heaven to inquire of the Heavenly Deities the causes of their misfortunes. The latter performed the ceremony of divining and said to them: "It is the woman's fault. In turning round the Pillar, it was not right and proper that the female Deity should in speaking have taken precedence of the male. That is the reason."

The two Deities saw the truth of this divine suggestion, and made up their minds to rectify the error. So, returning to the earth again, they went once more around the Heavenly Pillar. This time Izanagi spoke first saying: "How delightful to meet so beautiful a maiden!" "How happy I am," responded Izanami, "that I should meet such a handsom youth!" This process was more appropriate and in accordance with the law of nature. After this, all the children born to them left nothing to be desired. First, the island of Awaji was born, next, Shikoku, then, the island of Oki, followed by Kyushu; after that, the island Tsushima came into being, and lastly, Honshu, the main island of Japan. The name of Oyashi- ma-kuni (the Country of the Eight Great Islands) was given to these eight islands. After this, the two Deities became the parents of numerous smaller islands destined to surround the larger ones.

Maybe you haven't heard of this story.  It's the Japanese Creation Myth.  Would you be interested in telling me why this one is false and the one you believe is real?  I mean, really... What was it... a million slaves in Egypt walk through a big rift in the sea?  The firstborn of EVERY SINGLE EGYPTIAN killed in one night, and it's nowhere in the record books?  Rivers turning to blood?  Sounds pretty far fetched to me.  Hell, if I can believe in that, why couldn't I believe in Izanagi and Izanami?  Sounds about as plausible to me, and damn, the Japanese have been around for a long time.  Fourteen thousand years!  Don't you think they'd know more about the beginning of the world than a bunch of interlopers who've just been on the block a couple thousand years?

Quote:
But this is elementary.  I'm sure you've heard such things before, and, because you may not believe the stories of the Bible have a foundation in the real world, you have become quite tired of hearing about it.  What I want to talk about is the Passover feast itself, the one that has been celebrated for 3500 years by a people that rejects Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah foretold in their Scriptures.

Thirty five hundred years?  That would put it at around 1500 BCE.  Are you sure about that?

Quote:
On the 14th day of the first month on the Jewish calendar, (which tends to be May on our calendars, theirs is based off of lunar cycles so it fluctuates) the Passover is celebrated.  Aside from eating the Passover lamb, who's bones are not to be broken, they also will sit down and eat specific, traditional foods that teach things from the story in Exodus 12.  For example, they'll eat a very hot horse-radish ground with beet juice to remind them of the bitterness of slavery in Egypt, then quickly eat sweet apples to take away the bitterness to symbolize the release from slavery. 

Serious question:  Will they be under a curse or something if they break one of the bones?  Will they die a horrible death from the plague?  Will their testicles shrink?

Beets are awesome.  I like beet greens, sauteed, and layered with marscapone cheeze and beet slices on fancy crackers.  Yum.

Quote:
While many aspects of the Passover celebration directly correlate to the story of Christ, (the bitterness, in the above, would symbolize the bitterness of the death of Christ on the cross, and the sweetness would be the sweetness of the resurrection) I won't go into all of those.  I'll instead skip ahead to the fourth step in the Jewish Passover feast (also called the seder) which is called the Yachatz.  During the Yachatz, three pieces of unleavened bread are put before the celebrants.  These pieces of unleavened bread are traditionally baked on pans with indentions and ripples on them, which gives the bread an appearance of having stripes and holes in it.  As the prophet Isaiah says in Chapter 52, "He was to be pierced for our transgressions...and by His stripes we are healed."

So... eating crackers with stripes is good because Jesus got hit with a whip, but eating chocolate Jesus is bad because it's a graven image.

Out of curiosity, do you wear any cross jewelry?

Quote:

If someone were to make a giant chocolate statue of your naked body, you'd probably be flattered, and maybe a little weirded out. Jesus, on the other hand, was just plain furious. According to Catholics, who enjoy chocolate bunnies at Easter, He has no tolerance for chocolate, naked statues at any time of year. A New York art exhibit cleverly titled "My Sweet Jesus" featured a 200lb milk chocolate Jesus on the cross, sans loincloth and showing off all his sacred bits in their chocolatey glory.

Much like with the film the Last Temptation of Christ, the idea of a nudie savior just doesn't go over well with some folks. The head of the Catholic League called it "one of the worst assaults on Christian sensibilities ever," which is not an understatement at all, as long as you ignore everything else bad that has happened anywhere in the world over the last two thousand years.

Being loving and pious folks intent on expressing how their sensibilities were offended in a calm and mature fashion, the local Christian populace deluged the art gallery with angry phone calls and death threats. The result was the gallery canceling the exhibit and the creative director resigning his position in protest.

But on the upside for offended Christians, they were able to go about the rest of their lives content with the knowledge that nudity doesn't exist, at least not in a public, milk chocolate way. We believe the artist, despondent over the events, retired to his apartment and ate the entire statue over the course of a long, lonely weekend.

http://www.cracked.com/article_16619_7-things-from-pop-culture-that-apparently-piss-jesus-off.html

Quote:
So, they put these three pieces of striped and pierced unleavened bread in a linen basket they call the "Echad" and set it in the middle of the table.  This word "Echad" is used also in the Hebrew Old Testament.  It means "one" or "unity" in the Hebrew (Moses says in Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God is Echad )  It's important to note that Jewish people are strict unitarians; they do not believe God is Triune.

It is kind of a silly idea.  I mean, being your own dad and a ghost at the same time?  Who thought up that nonsense?

Quote:
Now, the Yachatz proceeds as follows:  the father, or head of the household, takes the middle piece of bread out of the Echad.  He takes hold of the bread, which is called the Afikomen, and breaks it.  He then wraps it in linen and hides it away.  The children in the house then search for the Afikomen and when they find it they return it to their father.  The children don't just give it to him though, the father pays a ransom to get the Afikomen back, which is typically gifts or money or the like.  Everyone at the feast then eats a piece of the Afikomen.

Sounds like a lovely ceremony.

Quote:
On the night Jesus Christ was betrayed, as He and His disciples ate what we call the Last Supper, they weren't just eating any old meal, they were celebrating the Passover.  When Jesus picked up the piece of bread and said, "Take, eat, this is My body broken for you," He was breaking the Afikomen.  

Wow... it's like... wow... It's almost like the people who wrote the story of Jesus had heard of the Passover Feast!

Quote:
The Jewish people have hardened their hearts to Jesus Christ.  They've celebrated this way for 3500 years and they still reject what I'm telling you.  It couldn't be more clear: the history of Christ is in their ancient tradition and Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah who takes away the sins of the world.  You likewise must not harden your hearts to Christ for the sake of trivial and disputable objections.  Consider what I've written, but don't take my word for it, look into it for yourself.  If you really want to think freely, seek the truth and the truth will make you free.

I hear they've also infiltrated Hollywood and the New York Stock Market.  Filthy Christ Killers!  Somebody should gas the lot of them.

 

Credulity is much easier to sustain when we've been taught that facts are things to be memorized and repeated, rather than sought out and discovered.
-- Me


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Thanks for reading all of

Thanks for reading all of that.  Couple things:

The story of Jesus wasn't just made up.  Even if you ignore the gospel accounts, you can read the works of many first century historians and get attestation to the life, death, and alleged empty tomb of Jesus.  Josephus, Tacitus, Pliney the Younger, and others attest to Jesus as a man that actually lived in history.  You're putting on blinders if you think Jesus didn't exist at all.

And yes, I did say 3500 years.  1400ish BC is the generally accepted date of the writing of Exodus.  It really isn't amazing that the Bible wouldn't be written until so "late" in human history, we didn't start writing anything down at all until 3000 BC.  Creation stories would have passed by word of mouth until this time.


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Chriswithac wrote:Thanks for

Chriswithac wrote:

Thanks for reading all of that.  Couple things:

The story of Jesus wasn't just made up.  Even if you ignore the gospel accounts, you can read the works of many first century historians and get attestation to the life, death, and alleged empty tomb of Jesus.  Josephus, Tacitus, Pliney the Younger, and others attest to Jesus as a man that actually lived in history.  You're putting on blinders if you think Jesus didn't exist at all.

And yes, I did say 3500 years.  1400ish BC is the generally accepted date of the writing of Exodus.  It really isn't amazing that the Bible wouldn't be written until so "late" in human history, we didn't start writing anything down at all until 3000 BC.  Creation stories would have passed by word of mouth until this time.

Josephus: Please read here and then respond

Tacitus: Please read here and then respond

Pliny the younger: Should be mentioned in the 2 above threads... (Pliny btw)

"Inaction breeds doubt and fear. Action breeds confidence and courage.
If you want to conquer fear, do not sit home and think about it.
Go out and get busy."
~ Dale Carnegie, Author


Hambydammit
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Quote:The story of Jesus

Quote:
The story of Jesus wasn't just made up.

Oh really?  Sounds made up to me.  I mean... walking on water?  Coming back to life after being dead three days?  Getting mad at fig trees for being out of season?  Really?

Quote:
Even if you ignore the gospel accounts, you can read the works of many first century historians and get attestation to the life, death, and alleged empty tomb of Jesus.  Josephus, Tacitus, Pliney the Younger, and others attest to Jesus as a man that actually lived in history.

Josephus and the Testimonium: Is it Evidence of Jesus?

What is the Jesus Mythicist's Position?

An Example of Jewish Fiction Writing in Antiquity

A Silence That Screams - (No contemporary historical accounts for "jesus)

Tacitus, Lucian and Josephus

The 'Gospels' are 'Midrash'

The Gospels are Anonymous Works - and None are Eyewitness Accounts

The self refuting nature of "Hermeneutics"

Quote:
And yes, I did say 3500 years.  1400ish BC is the generally accepted date of the writing of Exodus.

Funny.  I was under the impression that the earliest known combination of the three commonly accepted sources of Exodus was around 400BCE.  Shows what I get for trusting those pesky historians instead of preachers.  I could be wrong about this, and it's not a huge point, but I'm just not sure I've seen any archaeology suggesting that the feast is that old.  I think maybe people have just always assumed it was without actually checking.  Maybe Rook can answer this question more definitively.  I'll leave him a note to look at this thread.

Quote:
It really isn't amazing that the Bible wouldn't be written until so "late" in human history, we didn't start writing anything down at all until 3000 BC.

Curious.  I just reread my post, and I didn't say anything about the date the Bible was written or compiled.  (You know it wasn't compiled until well into the first millenium CE, right?  There was no such thing as the Bible before that.)  After thoroughly examining my sentences for clarity and meaning, I've come to the conclusion that you are either avoiding my question or were having a momentary problem with reading comprehension.   If it's the former, I wish you wouldn't do that.   If it's the latter, no biggie.  We all have bad days.  I'm going to ask it again, and try to be more clear.

Can you explain to me why a VERY OLD creation story, older than writing itself, believed by the Japanese long before there was such a thing as Israel, is less credible than a story cooked up by a tribe of nomads that didn't even exist until maybe three or four thousand years ago?

While we're on the subject, did you know that the Mayans had a creation story?  So did the Aztecs.  The Chinese have a really interesting one.  Pangu awoke after 18,000 years of slumber, and the act of his rising from sleep separated the heavens and the earth permanently.  At Pangu's death, creation sprang forth.  His last breath became the wind.  His voice was thunder.  One of his eyes became the moon, and so on, and so forth.  Interestingly, the fleas and lice on his body jumped off and eventually became humans.  Pretty neat, huh?

So, please explain this to me.  I'm trying to be fair about this.  On the one hand, I'm supposed to believe that humans were shaped out of mud, and then Yahweh breathed into them, and they magically came to life.  On the other, I'm supposed to believe that when Pangu died, fleas jumped off of him and magically became people.  Honestly, they both sound pretty far fetched, but apparently there's some compelling reason that you believe one and not the other.

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Creation stories would have passed by word of mouth until this time.

Right.  So.... Hebrews, even if you are generous (and ignore a lot of archaeology) are only three or four thousand years old.  Their story looks suspiciously like an amalgam of creation myths from older cultures that the Hebrews were geographically near.  Why should I believe that one in particular?  There are plenty of magical stories of creation, and they all sound pretty ridiculous. 

 

P.S.  Actually, tortoise shell carvings in China date back about 8000 years.  People in Egypt didn't start writing until about 3200 BC.

 

P.P.S.  Oh, one more thing.  Why should I believe any really old story of creation when scientists are demonstrably more knowledgable than bronze age mystics about so many things?

 

 

Credulity is much easier to sustain when we've been taught that facts are things to be memorized and repeated, rather than sought out and discovered.
-- Me


Chriswithac
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You guys are downright

You guys are downright militant.  All your articles prove is that there is a way to look at human history under the assumption that Jesus didn't exist and that the disciples were all a bunch of liars.  Showing me your worldview doesn't help.  You can read the words of the early historians yourself and make an unbiased assessment.

No need to be rude, catwithagun, I had trouble trying to figure out what you seriously wanted me to respond to.  You catch more flies with honey, btw.

Why do you think I appeal to the Genesis account of creation over the other accounts?  Because Jesus believed it, because it's written in the word of God, what other reason do I need other than "God said so?"

You guys are going way off topic, I'm sorry you're not interested in what I had to say.


aiia
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Chriswithac wrote:You guys

Chriswithac wrote:

You guys are downright militant.

What? Disagreeing with you is militant? Actually calling us militant is the act of a militant!

Quote:
  All your articles prove is that there is a way to look at human history under the assumption that Jesus didn't exist

You are incorrect. There is no evidence that jesus was an historical individual.

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 and that the disciples were all a bunch of liars.

There is no evidence that the disciples were historical individuals either.

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  Showing me your worldview doesn't help.
 

Obviously

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  You can read the words of the early historians yourself and make an unbiased assessment.

We have many times. It is you who have not read the links posted above. Do so now.

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No need to be rude, catwithagun, I had trouble trying to figure out what you seriously wanted me to respond to.  You catch more flies with honey, btw.

Rude? Where the hell do you see rude behavior?

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Why do you think I appeal to the Genesis account of creation over the other accounts?

Because you want people to blindly believe as you do.

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  Because Jesus believed it,

Who? 

What jesus?

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 because it's written in the word of God, what other reason do I need other than "God said so?"

What god?

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You guys are going way off topic, I'm sorry you're not interested in what I had to say.

Have you read the links above?

 

§§That fact that I cannot prove the nonexistence of a thing called god is inconsequential and nugatory because nonexistence cannot be proven of anything.§§


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Quote:You guys are downright

Quote:
You guys are downright militant.

Are you just pissed, or are you trying to say that militant = wrong?

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All your articles prove is that there is a way to look at human history under the assumption that Jesus didn't exist and that the disciples were all a bunch of liars.

No, actually all the articles prove is that it's more likely that Jesus didn't exist than that he did.

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Showing me your worldview doesn't help.

That's the thing about theism that's so dangerous.  Dogma is pretty bad like that.  Now, me on the other hand, you show me some credible evidence that Jesus was more likely to have existed than not, and if it's more convincing than the current evidence, I'll change my belief.  Granted, you'd still have a pretty strong uphill battle to convince me that there is a god and that it was some guy in a po-dunk town who got himself killed, but that's another issue.  The point is, you won't change your mind regardless of the facts, and mine is contingent on the facts as I am aware of them.

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You can read the words of the early historians yourself and make an unbiased assessment.

I have.  The evidence points clearly away from anything remotely approaching the Gospel accounts being in any way factual.

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No need to be rude, catwithagun, I had trouble trying to figure out what you seriously wanted me to respond to.  You catch more flies with honey, btw.

Monday is my honey day.  Today, it's vinegar. 

Seriously, most people actually do rate honey with me, believe it or not.  Ask anybody.  I'm one of the nicest people here.  You earned my ridicule by presenting a particularly ridiculous argument and avoiding my questions entirely.  I still don't know why you expect me to believe one creation myth over another.  That's really important.  If the Chinese or the Japanese have it right, then there's no reason for me to expect the Christians to be right when they've adopted the Hebrew creation myth as a foundation for their religion.

We've given you really clear evidence that Jesus probably didn't exist.  I've challenged you to justify belief in one story with magic while rejecting another.  You haven't.

Would you like to get mad at us some more, or is it time for you to slink back to church to pray away all the bad feelings the big, mean old atheists gave you?

 

 

Credulity is much easier to sustain when we've been taught that facts are things to be memorized and repeated, rather than sought out and discovered.
-- Me


Chriswithac
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Civil discussion can be had

Civil discussion can be had without insulting one another, in fact, I think that was one of the rules in this forum.  I admit I only skimmed the articles you linked; it's not anything I haven't heard before.  The writer comes at the facts of history with a preconcieved bias against what is written and with the assumption that it's all a big conspiracy.  That's bad scholarship.  There are plenty of unbiased (many unChristian) historians that would say Jesus existed and was crucified without a doubt in their minds.

Here's something for you to chew on:  can natural processes come about by natural processes?  If you say no, you're appealing to the supernatural.  If you say yes, you're asserting that natural processes existed before natural processes.


anniet
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I grew up in a

I grew up in a fundamentalist christian church with heavy emphasis on the OT.  We cleaned our houses every spring to get all the leavening/sin out and celebrated Passover under the name The Days of Unleavened Bread.  So, I do very much understand the point you are trying to make.  However, I disagree. 

The NT was written to try to conform to Jewish mythology regarding the Messiah.  That's why the Jesus legend seems to conform to their idea of Messiah.  They did not accept him as Messiah because the Jews had been dealing with Messiah claimants for a long time.  I have looked at the evidence.  Personally, I lean towards Jesus being a myth.

I would suggest you search the archived posts and essays for terms like "jesus myth" and such.  Also, the movie The God Who Wasn't There is quite an interesting place to start if you want to seek the truth.  As you note, the truth will set you free.

"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible got stoned.


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Chriswithac wrote:Civil

Chriswithac wrote:
Civil discussion can be had without insulting one another, in fact, I think that was one of the rules in this forum.  I admit I only skimmed the articles you linked; it's not anything I haven't heard before.  The writer comes at the facts of history with a preconcieved bias against what is written and with the assumption that it's all a big conspiracy.  That's bad scholarship.  There are plenty of unbiased (many unChristian) historians that would say Jesus existed and was crucified without a doubt in their minds.
It is instantly appearant that you skipped the vast majority of the articles presented to you. Rook's arguments and evidence are quite strong, and stand on thier own without need for "bias". Had you taken the time to actually read the artices, then perhaps you could counter them with something stronger than what amounts to insulting the writer.

 

Chriswithac wrote:
Here's something for you to chew on:  can natural processes come about by natural processes?  If you say no, you're appealing to the supernatural.  If you say yes, you're asserting that natural processes existed before natural processes.
I'm going to have to make an assumption to make sense of this, and that assumption is you're talking about the begenning of the universe.

If you are, then please understand that a question like "what was there before the universe?" has the same meaning as "What's north of the north pole?"

Here's something for you to chew on: If there is something outside nature, meaning it has no location and no mass and no energy, then what is it? How would we detect it? How could it have an effect on the natural universe?

We are afraid of the known and afraid of the unknown. That is our daily life and in that there is no hope, and therefore every form of philosophy, every form of theological concept, is merely an escape from the actual reality of what is. All outward forms of change brought about by wars, revolutions, reformations, laws and ideologies have failed completely to change the basic nature of man and therefore of society. - Thomas Jefferson


Hambydammit
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Quote:Civil discussion can

Quote:
Civil discussion can be had without insulting one another, in fact, I think that was one of the rules in this forum.
Go back and look again.  Nowhere have I called you any names or insulted you personally -- apart from the one instance where you obviously didn't answer the question I asked, and I suggested the possibility that you had a momentary lapse of cognitive ability.  That's hardly insulting, considering that I immediately dismissed it as inconsequential because everybody does it sometimes.  Would you like to argue about how we're arguing, or do you have any interest in answering the questions I've asked you?
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I admit I only skimmed the articles you linked; it's not anything I haven't heard before.
You admit your ignorance, yet you want to continue arguing your position.  You're not making a good case for yourself.
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The writer comes at the facts of history with a preconcieved bias against what is written and with the assumption that it's all a big conspiracy.
You're right.  It's obvious you haven't read the articles I linked because this is completely inaccurate.  I'm not going to tell you what they say because YOU SHOULD READ THEM YOURSELF.