This "Creation Museum" idea is catching on... right down the road from me

Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
This "Creation Museum" idea is catching on... right down the road from me

That's right, folks.  There's a new creation museum in the works right here in North Georgia.  I haven't thought of exactly what I'm going to do, but I feel like I have a civic responsibility to find a way to publicly humiliate them.  Ideas and suggestions are always greatly appreciated. 

Quote:

Blue Willow Inn Restaurant Owners Announce PlansTo Build Blue Willow Village in Social Circle, Georgia

  Grab this

SOCIAL CIRCLE -- Owners of the internationally acclaimed Blue Willow Inn restaurant, Louis and Billie Van Dyke, announce today plans to build the Blue Willow Village in Social Circle. With builders planning to break ground Tuesday, June 19 at 10:30 a.m., the village will be home to nine unique retail shops located adjacent to the Blue Willow Inn.

The Blue Willow Village architecture will be early 20th century Victorian style with each of the shops housed in Victorian cottages. In addition, the village will include a strip building patterned after early 20th century downtowns complete with a museum and 1950s soda fountain.

"The Blue Willow Village is designed to transport us back to quieter, simpler times when you could take an afternoon to eat, shop and relax with family and friends," said Louis Van Dyke. "We have found that people tend to linger after eating at the Blue Willow Inn, so we think this is a wonderful extension of the restaurant and another reason to visit Social Circle."

The Georgia Department of Economic Development projects that the village will increase visitors to the area by 150,000 annually. Additionally, the Blue Willow Village is expected to generate as many as 90 new jobs in the five-county area with increased expenditures in tourism of $14,388,000.

BLUE WILLOW VILLAGE SHOPS & MUSEUM

At the center of the village will be the Creation and Natural History Museum. Currently located in Stone Mountain, Ga., this unique museum will relocate to Social Circle and occupy 11,000 square feet with its museum displays and a retail shop. Created by Joseph Hurt Studio, the Gallery of Creation: A Museum of Natural History is a unique display of not only the Joseph Hurt Studio's expertise in robotics and touch-and-feel specimens, but assembles natural history from the age of dinosaurs and Creation in an entertaining, educational, interactive and inspirational manner.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Sleestack
Sleestack's picture
Posts: 172
Joined: 2008-07-07
User is offlineOffline
I would see if they are out

I would see if they are out of compliance with any building or zoning laws. Not sure how though, maybe not enough fire extinguishers or sprinklers, stuff like that. Or some sort of environmental impact.


nikimoto
nikimoto's picture
Posts: 235
Joined: 2008-07-21
User is offlineOffline
Oh my freakin'

Oh my freakin' GOD!         (figure of speach)

I was researching the new place and then for the first time decided to check out the original "Creation Museum".

 

This is part of their description:

"Walk through the Garden of Eden. The Tree of Life, central to the garden, stretches out its branches, laden with ripened fruits. Come face-to-face with a sauropod, a dinosaur of incredible dimensions. His monstrous frame moves through the low-lying thicket as he grazes on plants. Introduce yourself to our chameleons. Examine bones, a clutch of eggs from a dinosaur, an exceptional fossil collection, and a mineral collection. Walk through the Cave of Sorrows and see the horrific effects of the Fall of man. Sounds of a sin-ravaged world echo through the room. Finally, see the sacrificial Lamb on the cross, and the hope of redemption."

 

They say ignorance is bliss and I better get ignorant quickly before my head explodes!


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
If ignorance is bliss so

If ignorance is bliss so many people in this world are living in ecstasy.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Kevin R Brown
Superfan
Kevin R Brown's picture
Posts: 3142
Joined: 2007-06-24
User is offlineOffline
I like the Ken Miller

I like the Ken Miller approach.

 

Simply get some good evolutionary track diagrams, go to a photocopier and get them blown-up on big poster-sized pieces of card stock and then take them with you to the museum. Maybe have some press members handy with you and DEFINATELY make sure there's a camera rolling...

 

...Ask them to account for the 'transitional' animals. In Dr. Miller's own words, "If not descent with modification, how do you account for the emergence of these new species and the extinction of old species?"

 

 

Of course, one should always bear in mind that these museums are there strictly to reinforce ideas that are more or less already set in stone in the visitor's head (...as well as assist in the indoctrination of children, but to halt that you've have to take the parents out of the picture).

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


Wonko
Wonko's picture
Posts: 518
Joined: 2008-06-18
User is offlineOffline
Well, if you were dripping

Well, if you were dripping in money I think it'd be cool to open up your own creation castle. Perhaps, spending lotsa dollars in advertising...tv, newspapers, billboards and so forth. The central theme of your palace could be... "We've got all the empirical evidence of the trinity you'll see at that other museum and more !!!!"

Then of course, your 11,000 square feet would actually house real science,  rational experiment and observation, etc.

Somewhere near the front entrance, you could have a walk-through room set up with all that empirical evidence of the trinity on display....

now that that I think of it though, the room would be empty, wouldn't it. 

 


anniet
Silver Member
Posts: 325
Joined: 2008-08-06
User is offlineOffline
Letters to the editor of the

Letters to the editor of the local paper do get read.  Granted, it is a small action and likely will not have much impact, but starting discussions and getting people to think seems a good way to go.  What other forums for starting discussions do you have open to you in your town?

"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.


flog
Theist
Posts: 14
Joined: 2007-01-09
User is offlineOffline
huh?

"That's right, folks.  There's a new creation museum in the works right here in North Georgia.  I haven't thought of exactly what I'm going to do, but I feel like I have a civic responsibility to find a way to publicly humiliate them.  Ideas and suggestions are always greatly appreciated. "

 

Why even bother?  I mean really.  Why would you want to run around and make atheists look bad.  It's a pointless and stupid battle.  Live and let live. 

I swear some of you atheists are merely the opposite side of the same coin.  No better than some crazy "christian" running around protesting at funerals of soldiers saying "God hates fags" and whipping their bible out and making a fool of themselves at a funeral while at the same time showing utter disrespect for the place.

Go to the museum for your own entertainment and let people believe what they want to believe. 

Why mock someones belief?  I think folks running around mocking religion with the OL Spaghetti Monster thing are nothing but bigots and the very thing they speak out against is what they become.

You know what is going to happen to those doing the Spaghetti monster thing?  One of two things.

1) God does exist and he destroys them all together for the disrespect and mockery.

2) God does not exisst but after humans fall into a post apocalyptic world after WW3, the world is rebuilt but like in Conan days or something and tales of the Spaghetti monster arise in old pamphlets, someone believes it as truth and makes a whole religion based on the spaghetti monster and create one of the most oppressive religions in the year 2212.   

So at least show some respect for people.  You don't have to run around humiliating them because you think you are smarter and mroe refined cause you read a book on evolution and thought it made sense. 

I mean seriously let them be.  Simply don't be the opposite side of the same coin of ignorance and intolerance.

 

 

 


thingy
SuperfanGold Member
thingy's picture
Posts: 1022
Joined: 2007-02-07
User is offlineOffline
Live and let live?  Try

Live and let live?  Try telling that to the theists that are constantly forcing their religious beliefs down our throat.  Tell that to the theists who are forcing unscientific topics in to science class.  Tell that to the theists who are approving laws which have no rational justification, only the irrational backing of their particular flavour of religion.  Tell that to those who cannot marry the love of their lives just because they happen to be the same sex.  Tell that to the people who get scourned and descriminated against in every day life once it is found out they have no religious beliefs (I would have thought competing would be seen as worse than none, personally).

Live and let live?  We are not being let live.  All we are trying to do is be let live. 

Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
Censored and blacked out for internet access in ANZ!
AU: http://nocleanfeed.com/ | NZ: http://nzblackout.org/


Cpt_pineapple
atheist
Cpt_pineapple's picture
Posts: 5486
Joined: 2007-04-12
User is offlineOffline
Hambydammit wrote:That's

Hambydammit wrote:

That's right, folks.  There's a new creation museum in the works right here in North Georgia. 

 

 

Don't worry, the Russians will run over it with their tanks.


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2482
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Hambydammit wrote:That's

Hambydammit wrote:

That's right, folks.  There's a new creation museum in the works right here in North Georgia.  I haven't thought of exactly what I'm going to do, but I feel like I have a civic responsibility to find a way to publicly humiliate them.  Ideas and suggestions are always greatly appreciated. 

Since you own a restaurant too, it's time for new menu items. Here's a few ideas.

Noah's Dino burger. 100% pure Dinosaur hatched from left over eggs left on the ark.  $25.00 Comes with french fried manna. Served on sliced manna.

Scrambled Dino eggs.  Leftover eggs that Noah forgot on the ark. Recently discovered frozen on Mt Ararat. limited quantity. $2,500. Serves 50 people.

Manna. Served solitary just as G_d dropped it. $15 for large portion.

Communion wafer Sundae. Vanilla or chocolate ice cream on a base of the Lord's body. $5.00

Lot's special wine. One wineskin of Lot's special recipe wine. After a skin of this high octane special mix you too won't care who sees your naked bod. $85.00

 

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


The Doomed Soul
atheist
The Doomed Soul's picture
Posts: 2148
Joined: 2007-08-31
User is offlineOffline
Cpt_pineapple wrote:Don't

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Don't worry, the Russians will run over it with their tanks.

 

Fully admit, i roflol'ed

What Would Kharn Do?


flog
Theist
Posts: 14
Joined: 2007-01-09
User is offlineOffline
thingy wrote:Live and let

thingy wrote:

Live and let live?  Try telling that to the theists that are constantly forcing their religious beliefs down our throat.  Tell that to the theists who are forcing unscientific topics in to science class.  Tell that to the theists who are approving laws which have no rational justification, only the irrational backing of their particular flavour of religion.  Tell that to those who cannot marry the love of their lives just because they happen to be the same sex.  Tell that to the people who get scourned and descriminated against in every day life once it is found out they have no religious beliefs (I would have thought competing would be seen as worse than none, personally).

Live and let live?  We are not being let live.  All we are trying to do is be let live. 

That was the point I was trying to make though. Becoming merely the opposite side of the same coin.  "Christians", Muslims, etc do stupid stuff in the name of their religion.  Don't do stupid stuff in the name of your belief. 

Protesting or making a mockery of someone elses beliefs does nothing but stir more hatred.  Those crazy irrational "religous folks" prove it all the time.  Don't be in the same crowd.  You think you are not but when you go to similiar measures and extremes to impose on others your beliefs or simply to mock and make fun of them, you've become just like them, no better.

You give atheism a bad name.  Notice the name of this sight.  RATIONAL responder.  When people take such actions for their beliefs to persecute, degrade or show outright bigotry you cease being RATIONAL and simply become that which you so truly disagree with. 

That already proves my theory.  Many atheists believe the world would be a better place without religion and it's the cause of the all the problem. 

It definately is a fuel to the fire but in all honesty even if Atheism was the primary belief it would be no better.  Responses and thoughts like the above prove just that.

You put yourself in the same category as Christians persecuting gays, as muslims persectuing jews, and whatever other group degrading and showing utter bigotry toward another group.

If you want to lower yourself that is fine become the other side of the same coin. 

 


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
 

 


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Matt, I admit, ordinarily,

Matt, I admit, ordinarily, I'm not all that thrilled by the "Not this shit again" cat.  But honestly, I haven't got the heart to go over this territory for the nine hundredth time.  Geez.

To the dude who wants me to live and let live...... DUDE....  Seriously.... Get a grip on reality, ok?  Do you understand that anyone who makes a museum teaching creationism is NOT LIVING AND LETTING LIVE.  They are PRESSING THEIR OWN AGENDA, which happens to be completely fucking wrong.  I didn't start this shit, and I don't have any kind of moral imperative to let stupidity become the norm when I have the knowledge to change things.

If everybody was like you, women still wouldn't be allowed to vote, and we'd probably still be beating the shit out of black people for not picking cotton fast enough.  Grow some balls.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


flog
Theist
Posts: 14
Joined: 2007-01-09
User is offlineOffline
I was just saying choose

I was just saying choose your battles wisely and not stooping to the same level.

There is nothing wrong with fighting for rights and against ignorance but do it with dignity. Notice the original poster, says he wanted to to find a  way to mock, humiliate or make them look stupid.

Not teach, inform and present the other side of the arguement in a rational thinking manner. 

Think of the dignity, courage used during the civil rights movement.  How using logic, rationalism and good sense made such a head way in the US.  Not because their goal was to make "white" people look stupid but to show that they were equal and would stand against inequality.    It was dignified.   They did not stoop to the level of the KKK to win the day. 

Now a days you have folks like Al Sharpton who was involved in teh Civil Rights movement only looking like an idiot and he lost that dignity beause he descides to fight every battle and calls racism on everything.  It no longer has the power it once has because it went from a strong dignified stance against racism to nit picking on stupid things to where no one can takes him seriously anymore. 

I'm just saying to be careful and not become that which you are fighing against. 

Quite honestly in the end so what if they open a museum and push their own agenda.   Those who go and want to see it are probably believers and there is nothing you can do or say to convince them.    Mocking them will do even less to help your cause and completey close their ears.   Time will be the ultimate descision on either side of the fence.  You cannot stop ultimate truth.   Catholics fought against many things such as Earth being the center of the Universe and yet time proved them false.   

I'm telling you if we humans are still on this planet alive by 2121 those folks spouting the Spaghetti Monster will inadvertently have created one of the most ridiculous religions thus negating all their efforts.  


JillSwift
Superfan
JillSwift's picture
Posts: 1758
Joined: 2008-01-13
User is offlineOffline
Flog, hon, I think you need

Flog, hon, I think you need to read up on the civil rights period. Your characterization of it is rather... sanitized.

Your argument about the Flying Spaghetti Monster is interesting. You accept that someone could pick up ancient writings from the past and then follow those writings as if they were some kind of truth. Aren't you a bible believing Christian? Perhaps I've misread your other posts, but if you are... well, isn't that what you've done?

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


thingy
SuperfanGold Member
thingy's picture
Posts: 1022
Joined: 2007-02-07
User is offlineOffline
flog wrote:That was the

flog wrote:
That was the point I was trying to make though. Becoming merely the opposite side of the same coin.  "Christians", Muslims, etc do stupid stuff in the name of their religion.  Don't do stupid stuff in the name of your belief. 

Protesting or making a mockery of someone elses beliefs does nothing but stir more hatred.  Those crazy irrational "religous folks" prove it all the time.  Don't be in the same crowd.  You think you are not but when you go to similiar measures and extremes to impose on others your beliefs or simply to mock and make fun of them, you've become just like them, no better.

You give atheism a bad name.  Notice the name of this sight.  RATIONAL responder.  When people take such actions for their beliefs to persecute, degrade or show outright bigotry you cease being RATIONAL and simply become that which you so truly disagree with. 

That already proves my theory.  Many atheists believe the world would be a better place without religion and it's the cause of the all the problem. 

It definately is a fuel to the fire but in all honesty even if Atheism was the primary belief it would be no better.  Responses and thoughts like the above prove just that.

You put yourself in the same category as Christians persecuting gays, as muslims persectuing jews, and whatever other group degrading and showing utter bigotry toward another group.

If you want to lower yourself that is fine become the other side of the same coin.

It sounds like the point you're trying to make is that we should just sit back and let everyone walk all over us.  We have to stand up for our rights or else that will happen.  We won't be allowed to let live as I desire, and currently we are not.  The OP's ideas were mostly in jest, anything done will more than likely be much more sensible.  Things like the FSM are just about making a point of how it all appears to us, another way to get our thoughts across in a way they'll understand. 

Often the best way to get acceptance is for people to come out of the closet.  Get people used to the idea that we are everywhere, and we are normal people just like everyone else.  We need to get rid of their phobias by actually seeing us to begin with, then once we have their attention they may notice us return to our normal lives and realise we are and have been part of their functioning society all along.  In the US currently less people would vote for an atheist for president than they would a gay or a person of any opposing religion, that's how phobic they are.

Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
Censored and blacked out for internet access in ANZ!
AU: http://nocleanfeed.com/ | NZ: http://nzblackout.org/


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
Quote:You know what is going

Quote:

You know what is going to happen to those doing the Spaghetti monster thing?  One of two things.

1) God does exist and he destroys them all together for the disrespect and mockery.

2) God does not exisst but after humans fall into a post apocalyptic world after WW3, the world is rebuilt but like in Conan days or something and tales of the Spaghetti monster arise in old pamphlets, someone believes it as truth and makes a whole religion based on the spaghetti monster and create one of the most oppressive religions in the year 2212.  

And, uh, do you have any sound reason to suppose that either scenario in the (false) dichotomy will occur?

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


anniet
Silver Member
Posts: 325
Joined: 2008-08-06
User is offlineOffline
flog wrote:There is nothing

flog wrote:

There is nothing wrong with fighting for rights and against ignorance but do it with dignity. Notice the original poster, says he wanted to to find a  way to mock, humiliate or make them look stupid.

Think of the dignity, courage used during the civil rights movement.  How using logic, rationalism and good sense made such a head way in the US.  Not because their goal was to make "white" people look stupid but to show that they were equal and would stand against inequality.    It was dignified.   They did not stoop to the level of the KKK to win the day. 

Let me just 2nd Jill and say you need to read some more history.  More moderate reformers like MLK Jr. were only so widely accepted because of in your face folks like Malcolm X and the Black Panthers.  We would not have seen an end to Jim Crow without outspoken, defiant Americans.

The goal is to show the negative effects of treating religion with the current level of accepted reverence.  If this makes theists look stupid, so be it.  Everyone makes mistakes.  That's how we learn.  Theists need to start learning from their mistakes (as many of us ex-theists have admitted to on this site).

"I am that I am." - Proof that the writers of the bible were beyond stoned.


nikimoto
nikimoto's picture
Posts: 235
Joined: 2008-07-21
User is offlineOffline
flog wrote:You give atheism

flog wrote:

You give atheism a bad name.  Notice the name of this sight (site).  RATIONAL responder.  When people take such actions for their beliefs to persecute, degrade or show outright bigotry you cease being RATIONAL and simply become that which you so truly disagree with. 

That already proves my theory.  Many atheists believe the world would be a better place without religion and it's the cause of the all the problem. 

It definately (definitely) is a fuel to the fire but in all honesty even if Atheism was the primary belief it would be no better.  Responses and thoughts like the above prove just that.

You put yourself in the same category as Christians persecuting gays, as muslims persectuing jews, and whatever other group degrading and showing utter bigotry toward another group.

If you want to lower yourself that is fine become the other side of the same coin. 

 

Whether you are right or wrong about the approach one thing I know is that any action taken need not be done in the name of Atheism but could (and should?) be done in the name of science, education and truth in advertising.


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
[The goal is to show the

[The goal is to show the negative effects of treating religion with the current level of accepted reverence.  If this makes theists look stupid, so be it.  Everyone makes mistakes.  That's how we learn.  Theists need to start learning from their mistakes (as many of us ex-theists have admitted to on this site).

The thing that passes by a lot of people is that theism IS stupid.  If you say or do something stupid, you don't have any inherent right to be allowed to continue in your stupidity without experiencing ridicule.  Sometimes, people just don't know they're doing something stupid.  Other times, other people don't notice that someone is doing something stupid.  In either case, knowledge is better than ignorance.  I don't call people names or throw water balloons or stupid shit like that.  I expose their beliefs and practices for what they are.  How people react is their own business.

In the case of a creation museum, somebody needs to say, "Um... you know... we know for absolutely certain that this isn't right."

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Wonko
Wonko's picture
Posts: 518
Joined: 2008-06-18
User is offlineOffline
flog wrote:Becoming merely

flog wrote:
Becoming merely the opposite side of the same coin.  "Christians", Muslims, etc do stupid stuff in the name of their religion.  Don't do stupid stuff in the name of your belief.

Flog,    VERY.......... slowwwwwly......Repeat...... after... me.

Atheism     isssss      not     a      beeee-lief    system.

flog wrote:
Notice the original poster, says he wanted to to find a  way to mock, humiliate or make them look stupid.

I saw the word humiliate. But the others, uhh no.

Are you seeing things again, Flog?

Now, one more time, Flog. And this time, 

say it with gusto,

say it with feeling....

Atheism is NOT a belief system.


Future Indefinite
Future Indefinite's picture
Posts: 42
Joined: 2008-05-28
User is offlineOffline
Creationism Crap.

flog wrote:

"That's right, folks.  There's a new creation museum in the works right here in North Georgia.  I haven't thought of exactly what I'm going to do, but I feel like I have a civic responsibility to find a way to publicly humiliate them.  Ideas and suggestions are always greatly appreciated. "

 

Why even bother?  I mean really.  Why would you want to run around and make atheists look bad.  It's a pointless and stupid battle.  Live and let live. 

I swear some of you atheists are merely the opposite side of the same coin.  No better than some crazy "christian" running around protesting at funerals of soldiers saying "God hates fags" and whipping their bible out and making a fool of themselves at a funeral while at the same time showing utter disrespect for the place.

Go to the museum for your own entertainment and let people believe what they want to believe. 

Why mock someones belief?  I think folks running around mocking religion with the OL Spaghetti Monster thing are nothing but bigots and the very thing they speak out against is what they become.

You know what is going to happen to those doing the Spaghetti monster thing?  One of two things.

1) God does exist and he destroys them all together for the disrespect and mockery.

2) God does not exisst but after humans fall into a post apocalyptic world after WW3, the world is rebuilt but like in Conan days or something and tales of the Spaghetti monster arise in old pamphlets, someone believes it as truth and makes a whole religion based on the spaghetti monster and create one of the most oppressive religions in the year 2212.   

So at least show some respect for people.  You don't have to run around humiliating them because you think you are smarter and mroe refined cause you read a book on evolution and thought it made sense. 

I mean seriously let them be.  Simply don't be the opposite side of the same coin of ignorance and intolerance. 

 

 

Rubbish!  You are arguing as though you are comparing a Ford with a Toyota and suggesting the decent thing to do is respect the relative merits of both while, perhaps preferring one over the other. This is not a valid argument when it comes to comparing Evolution with Creationism.  They are not two sides of the same coin at all and to think they are is to have delusions of grandeur. 

Evolution is a substantially backed, exhaustively tested theory.  It is evidential knowledge and the ignorant superstition of a creation myth contained in book of Bronze Age mythology cannot be compared with it.   Creationism is not science nor is its bastard cousin, Intelligent Design.  It is an attempt to give a scientific veneer to mythology. 

One mocks the nonsensical beliefs of Creationist fools not out of disrespect per se, but because such ignorant individuals are trying to undermine the authority of science and indoctrinate their unfortunate children into the darkness of superstition rather than the enlightenment of research and the scientific method which has produced so much for the benefit of the human race such as:  computers, cell phones, TV...all electronic devices and scientific theories such as Electromagnetism, Quantum Mechanics, Gravity and Evolution, not to mention the improvement of health worldwide by developing medicines, antibiotics, medical procedures, medical knowledge, and orthopedic or other surgery!  Plus, the advancement of agriculture and farming techniques, farm equipment and animal husbandry!

What has religion produced apart from a long bloody history of sectarian warfare and the persecution of those who don’t conform to the alleged will of the gods as contained in their mythological writings and interpreted by their self-serving priests and preachers? 

 

 

 

 

 

............................................................

"Humanity has the stars in its future, and that future is too important to be lost under the burden of juvenile folly and ignorant superstition". - Isaac Asimov


flog
Theist
Posts: 14
Joined: 2007-01-09
User is offlineOffline
deludedgod wrote:Quote:You

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

You know what is going to happen to those doing the Spaghetti monster thing?  One of two things.

1) God does exist and he destroys them all together for the disrespect and mockery.

2) God does not exisst but after humans fall into a post apocalyptic world after WW3, the world is rebuilt but like in Conan days or something and tales of the Spaghetti monster arise in old pamphlets, someone believes it as truth and makes a whole religion based on the spaghetti monster and create one of the most oppressive religions in the year 2212.  

And, uh, do you have any sound reason to suppose that either scenario in the (false) dichotomy will occur?

Actually it was more of a joke.    Actually I'm writing a future story in the year 2212, full of deformed monsters, a small technological colony and one large group of religious fanatics who dug up some old uncompleted files and pamphlets on the Spaghetti monster and formed an oppressive religion out of it.    Catholocism is subjected to small persucted crowd and the world has 100 muslims who are stocked up in a temple.    I'm actually getting it all together.  Makes some good scif fi, don't worry, nothing like that book "Taken away" or whatever it is about the rapture. 

As far as evidence of scenario 2, history is full of examples.  I mean you take Christianity for one. It went from a small group of believers in the country side of Israel to the ruling power of Rome and Europe, where the Jews once persecutors of Christians went on the receiving end.  The whole point of Christianity changed for a group worshipping God and promoting loveto the huge commercial and polictical monster we have to do with very few glimpses of actual Christianity which promotes death and destruction.

So it is possible one day as science progresses that the minority will become the majority.    Atheist, Christian or Muslim or it does not matter, man has a bad habit of domintating one man over another based on race, sex, age, beliefs etc.   It is the way of the world no matter who is in charge.  And history has shown that sometimes you end up being the person you wanted to stop.    Good intentioned young freedom fighter against an oppressive government wins and then becomes an even more oppressive government.  So it is in the realm of reality especially at the rate we are going that there will be a ww3 and as Einstein said WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones.  High chance we revert back and some crazy fool digs up some old pamphlet about the Spaghetti monster and creates a whole religion out of it.  Stuff of SCI Fi and fiction but history has also told us sometimes reality catches up to Sci Fi. 

As far as scenario 1 is concerned if there is a God he'll have to show up soon before we do blow ourselves up, ruin the environment and suck up all Earth's national resources and if not, well we go to scenario 2    


flog
Theist
Posts: 14
Joined: 2007-01-09
User is offlineOffline
Future Indefinite wrote:flog

Future Indefinite wrote:

flog wrote:

  Rubbish!  You are arguing as though you are comparing a Ford with a Toyota and suggesting the decent thing to do is respect the relative merits of both while, perhaps preferring one over the other. This is not a valid argument when it comes to comparing Evolution with Creationism.  They are not two sides of the same coin at all and to think they are is to have delusions of grandeur. 

The opposite side of the same coin was not to compare the two theories and how much they are alike but the actions of individuals who act alike despite being from two very differant areas of thought. 

In other words there are idiot Christians, Muslim and Atheists just as there are reasonable Atheists, Muslims and Christians.  

There are your blowup an abortion clinic Christian and your blowup a church atheist.

There are you educated Atheists who can reasonably explain Evolution and the Big Bang that make perfect sense and your dumb ones who just mumble a bunch of garbage thnking they know something when they really don't, Christains have those too.  

There are your I'm going to stand in front of this gay man's private funeral and protest God hating fags and there are your let's stand outside the privately owned creation museum and disrupt peoples Saturday morning trip with the family.

So yeah anyone can be the opposite side of the same coin.  Heads = no creator, no God Tails =Creation but the the coin itself is jerk coin. 

I do think it is anyone's right to protest or speak their mind.    But if your goal is simply to humiliate vs educate your being counterproductive.   In fact I am all for the original poster going to the news media and trying to get his side published or commented on. 

 

 


AmericanIdle
Posts: 414
Joined: 2007-03-16
User is offlineOffline
flog wrote:Quote:It's a

flog wrote:

Quote:
It's a pointless and stupid battle.  Live and let live. 

You are a living example of why the above notion would be a poor idea.

Quote:

I swear some of you atheists are merely the opposite side of the same coin.  No better than some crazy "christian" running around protesting at funerals of soldiers saying "God hates fags" and whipping their bible out and making a fool of themselves at a funeral while at the same time showing utter disrespect for the place.

Sans the "hate" and the "imaginary deity" and the "sacred scripture that promotes, divisiveness, hate, ignorance" and the "fools of themselves" thing"...oh and the "crazy".

Yep except for those, surely the opposite side of the same coin.  You're making quite an argument here..

Quote:
let people believe what they want to believe. 

Over half of the world believes that individuals/groups who do not meet certain criteria should die.  A student of history would understand that all beliefs are surely not equal.

Quote:
  I think folks running around mocking religion with the OL Spaghetti Monster thing are nothing but bigots and the very thing they speak out against is what they become.

Taking a stand against bigotry and/or ignorance hardly makes someone a bigot. Does it ?  This might be one of the worst arguments I've ever seen.

Quote:
So at least show some respect for people. 

Letting people know they don't have to surrender their freedom to something imaginary or burn forever in a lake of fire seems to be the very height of respect to me.

Quote:
  Simply don't be the opposite side of the same coin of ignorance and intolerance.

There are a great many beliefs that are not and should not ever be tolerated in a civilized society.  Did you sleep through all your history classes ? 

Our best hope for the present and the future is to stop promoting (or encourage others to stop promoting) those beliefs that encourage hatred, divisiveness, exist to manipulate the minds of fellow humans and glorify dishonesty to the exclusion of the search for truth. 

There is nothing ignorant about that.  In fact, there's hardly an action I can think of, that is more honorable.

 

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
Quote:Why even bother?  I

Quote:

Why even bother?  I mean really.  Why would you want to run around and make atheists look bad.  It's a pointless and stupid battle.  Live and let live. 

I swear some of you atheists are merely the opposite side of the same coin.  No better than some crazy "christian" running around protesting at funerals of soldiers saying "God hates fags" and whipping their bible out and making a fool of themselves at a funeral while at the same time showing utter disrespect for the place.

Go to the museum for your own entertainment and let people believe what they want to believe. 

Why mock someones belief?  I think folks running around mocking religion with the OL Spaghetti Monster thing are nothing but bigots and the very thing they speak out against is what they become.

As a biologist, I agree that in the long term, intelligent design lobby is engaging in an inherently pointless battle. There is no reason to suppose that there is any threat to the stature of evolution as the central theory of biology among biologists, and the only way to disentangle evolution from modern biology would be to destroy the discipline entirely. Nonetheless, you surely cannot tell me with a straight face that you cannot see a problem with a large proportion of the non-biologist public actively engaged in and believing in complete nonsense which is an active block towards good science education in a country which already has shockingly low quality of science education in the secondary system (the tertiary system is another matter entirely). If these people were looked at in the same manner as Hololcaust deniers and Flat Earthers, there would perhaps be little cause for concern. However, the fact of the matter is that this branch of psueodoscience has a high level of public and governmental support in an extremely zealous religious nation, a nation which is supposed to lead the way in terms of biology, and it is indeed true that American research institutions of molecular biology, genetics, evolutionary biology and developmental biology are second to none, but with such a large percentage of the American public as participants in a particularly proliferative branch of nonsense. The widening chasm between the understanding of how life works among biologists, and the confusion and misunderstanding in non-biologist groups, is a recipe for disaster.

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


flog
Theist
Posts: 14
Joined: 2007-01-09
User is offlineOffline
"Taking a stand against

"Taking a stand against bigotry and/or ignorance hardly makes someone a bigot. Does it ?  This might be one of the worst arguments I've ever seen."

Yes but notice at the very beginning of this post he was not simply taking a stand. His words from the very beginning were "how can I find a way to humilate them"

It would have never even been mentioned by me if the original poster simply would have said " how can I inform these people" "present opposing evidence"  "fight against ignorance"  "show another picture" or "even show how I disagree with this museum."

His words were "HUMILIATE them."  You don't fight bigotry and ignorance with more bigotry and ignorance.

Replace the venue with another venue.

Black College opens up in the South and you want to go HUMILIATE the Black Kids at the school becasue they come from the ghetto and speak ebonics which you feel is plain ignorant.

or

A Homosexual Organization opens up and you want to go and HUMILIATE them because you feel it's wrong and disgusting and against the laws of nature that they are gay.  They are ignorant thinking it's okay. 

Attacking people and trying to humiliate them will not help your cause but will only hinder the result in which you speak.

If science is correct on Evolution it will eventually win as science has done against ignorance in the past.    There has been many battles in the past and science won.  Fight the fine fight but do so as a soldier with honor.   I'm all for speaking up but not outright trying to humiliate people.  Leave that to the crazy "GOD HATES FAGS" guys.


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
flog wrote:Live and let

flog wrote:

Live and let live...and let people believe what they want to believe.

flog wrote:

Fight the fine fight but do so as a soldier with honor.

So which is it?

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


Wonko
Wonko's picture
Posts: 518
Joined: 2008-06-18
User is offlineOffline
flog wrote:"Taking a stand

flog wrote:

"Taking a stand against bigotry and/or ignorance hardly makes someone a bigot. Does it ?  This might be one of the worst arguments I've ever seen."

Yes but notice at the very beginning of this post he was not simply taking a stand. His words from the very beginning were "how can I find a way to humilate them"

It would have never even been mentioned by me if the original poster simply would have said " how can I inform these people" "present opposing evidence"  "fight against ignorance"  "show another picture" or "even show how I disagree with this museum."

His words were "HUMILIATE them."  You don't fight bigotry and ignorance with more bigotry and ignorance.

Replace the venue with another venue.

Black College opens up in the South and you want to go HUMILIATE the Black Kids at the school becasue they come from the ghetto and speak ebonics which you feel is plain ignorant.

or

A Homosexual Organization opens up and you want to go and HUMILIATE them because you feel it's wrong and disgusting and against the laws of nature that they are gay.  They are ignorant thinking it's okay. 

Attacking people and trying to humiliate them will not help your cause but will only hinder the result in which you speak.

If science is correct on Evolution it will eventually win as science has done against ignorance in the past.    There has been many battles in the past and science won.  Fight the fine fight but do so as a soldier with honor.   I'm all for speaking up but not outright trying to humiliate people.  Leave that to the crazy "GOD HATES FAGS" guys.

Flog,

You continue tossing around the word humiliate as if it were some really filthy, rotten, wickedly evil word/action.

Humiliate like the word "humble", both offshoot from Fr. to Latin from humilis or humus. I think Hamby used an extremely appropriate word and I'd be hard pressed to find a better one. It's intended meaning seems clear and considering the scenario he and other north Georgians are facing, well, I couldn't blame anyone for wanting to humble Creationists down to the ground, so to speak.

Come to think of it, isn't that where they love to grovel in prayer any way ???


AmericanIdle
Posts: 414
Joined: 2007-03-16
User is offlineOffline
flog wrote:Quote:His words

flog wrote:

Quote:
His words from the very beginning were "how can I find a way to humilate them"

Let's assume for a minute that he actually meant the word, "humiliate" and wasn't just having fun (because I honestly don't know).

Ever been caught in a lie ?  Was it humiliating ?  Did you learn from it ? 

Ever say something ignorant ?  (I'm referring to outside this post, just for clarification purposes)  Did you get called on it ?  Was it humiliating ?  Did you learn from it ?

Harmful ideas should be criticized for the sake of the many people those ideas harm.  Lies of the manipulation type should not be left unchallenged.  Ignorance should not allowed to flourish. Confronting tyrrany of this sort often leads to one form of humiliation or another.

It's certainly preferable to criticize ideas rather than people, but as you should clearly be able to see, often that is not possible.

Call me when the OP suggests torture and death for someone that disagrees w/ him.  Then you might actually have reached an argument of comparable value.

Quote:

His words were "HUMILIATE them."  You don't fight bigotry and ignorance with more bigotry and ignorance.

Did you just scream at me ?

Repeat after me... Humiliating another does not necessarily = "bigotry and ignorance".  Repeat as necessary until this concept sinks in.

Quote:
Black Kids ........A Homosexual Organization

Stop using traditional targets of religious bigotry to frame your arguments against those that reject religion.  It makes me think I've inadvertently switched to Fox News and need a shower.

Quote:
If science is correct on Evolution it will eventually win as science has done against ignorance in the past. 

I like the "if" part as it reveals your particular education on the subject.

If suffering fools gladly becomes the rule of the day, we'll have nothing left, but fools !!

It's no surprise that this does not bother you.

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


flog
Theist
Posts: 14
Joined: 2007-01-09
User is offlineOffline
Wonko wrote:Flog,You

Wonko wrote:

Flog,

You continue tossing around the word humiliate as if it were some really filthy, rotten, wickedly evil word/action.

Humiliate like the word "humble", both offshoot from Fr. to Latin from humilis or humus. I think Hamby used an extremely appropriate word and I'd be hard pressed to find a better one. It's intended meaning seems clear and considering the scenario he and other north Georgians are facing, well, I couldn't blame anyone for wanting to humble Creationists down to the ground, so to speak.

Come to think of it, isn't that where they love to grovel in prayer any way ???

I know Humiliate does in fact mean humble it also means

to cause (a person) a painful loss of pride, self-respect, or dignity; mortify
To lower the pride, dignity, or self-respect of. See Synonyms at degrade.

So say a teacher at school humiliated your child versus kindly correct and teach your child what would you do when that child came home "humbled"

No it's not rotten or evil but it's not good to humiliate people.  I'm sure we all enjoyed being humiliated and we all know what it means to be humiliated. 

I'm not the one who started with the post on how I can humiliate someone.

Embarass or humiliate your wife in front of her friends and see if she simply thinks you "humbled' her. 

 

 


flog
Theist
Posts: 14
Joined: 2007-01-09
User is offlineOffline
Quote: Stop using

Quote:
 

Stop using traditional targets of religious bigotry to frame your arguments against those that reject religion.  It makes me think I've inadvertently switched to Fox News and need a shower.

 

Okay so Atheists descide to have a peaceful meeting and some crazy Christians are outside trying to humiliate you.  Which I'm sure they have done in the past but it's no excuse to stoop to that level. 

 

 


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
SOmeone so stupid to think

SOmeone so stupid to think the Earth is 6000 years old deserves way beyond humiliation. They should get lifetime commitment.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


AmericanIdle
Posts: 414
Joined: 2007-03-16
User is offlineOffline
flog wrote:Quote: Stop

flog wrote:

Quote:
 

Stop using traditional targets of religious bigotry to frame your arguments against those that reject religion.  It makes me think I've inadvertently switched to Fox News and need a shower.

 

Okay so Atheists descide to have a peaceful meeting and some crazy Christians are outside trying to humiliate you.  Which I'm sure they have done in the past but it's no excuse to stoop to that level. 

 

 

Is this analogy a metaphor for this forum ?   That was really deep, brother.  This forum really is a sort of peaceful meeting isn't it ?  And there's no end to the "crazy christians" outside trying to humiliate.

But to experience humiliation, I must first be shown my own self deception, how exactly I place another human in harm's way w/ my lack of belief or maybe how I make my world more dangerous or less intelligent.

Show me any of these and I might honestly deserve the humiliation, wouldn't I ?

If not, then justifiably I'll continue to feel honorable about myself, the purpose for such a meeting, the rest of those attending, and let's not forget the hosts of this party... Woot !

So like the rest of those "crazy christians" out there, flog, you just keep working on it.

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


JillSwift
Superfan
JillSwift's picture
Posts: 1758
Joined: 2008-01-13
User is offlineOffline
flog wrote:Okay so Atheists

flog wrote:
Okay so Atheists descide to have a peaceful meeting and some crazy Christians are outside trying to humiliate you.  Which I'm sure they have done in the past but it's no excuse to stoop to that level.
Given that these same Creationists will not listen to reason (literally). Given that these same creationists want thier fantasy taught as science in public schools (meaning stuffing their fantasy down the throats of children of families who do not share thier delusions).

What would you have us do? You're quick to say what not to do, so how about a positive suggestion?

I'm sure we're willing to listen, but if your answer is "I don't know" then kindly keep your opinions to yourself. The conversation is about what to do, not what not to do.

 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


flog
Theist
Posts: 14
Joined: 2007-01-09
User is offlineOffline
"SOmeone so stupid to think

"SOmeone so stupid to think the Earth is 6000 years old deserves way beyond humiliation. They should get lifetime commitment."

Okay honestly I feel you on this one.  I'm a Christian and believe the Earth is billions of years old. 

The planet’s coming into existence is recounted in the Bible with the simple statement: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Ge 1:1) Just how long ago the starry heavens and the earth were created is not stated in the Bible. Therefore, there is no basis for Bible scholars to take issue with scientific calculations of the age of the planet. Scientists estimate the age of some rocks as being three and a half billion years, and the earth itself as being about four to four and a half billion or more years.

For them to think differantly than the Earth being billions of years old is not hte Bible saying it but them making stuff up.  I agree alot of it is stupid but I would rather inform people and not humiliate them. 

 


Nikolaj
Superfan
Nikolaj's picture
Posts: 503
Joined: 2008-04-27
User is offlineOffline
To Flog (and anyone else

To Flog (and anyone else here, who might want to hear more of my original opinion about the RRS).

I come from a country where Religion is quite simply a non-issue. We don't have crazy fundies here at all, and the few muslim immigrants we have here are the ones whose ideas are dwindling away under the pressure of the dominating culture, not the other way around.

So I am very much of the live and let live opinion, since anger, arrogance and condesention is often counterproductive, if you geniually want to convince someone of the value of your position.

When I first came here I saw atheism (which I've grown up with as the only "beliefsystem" around) in a form I had never seen or experienced before: activist atheism, or, you might call it radical atheism.

My immediate impression was that people here really think alot about religion, and man do they have a strong opinion on it! You might say I was even concerned from time to time that they were being counterproductive, and that they really ought to calm down.

But it didn't take me long to get an impression of what the people here were all about. They are the minority where they are from, and just stating that they don't really consider themselves religious is enough to get them fired, scorned, feared, attacked, not to mention being disowned by their own family.

So that means that even when I see someone who is being counterproductive with their behavior (I think Mattshizzle is too much attitude, and too little substance for example. Sorry Matt, I'm just being honest), I totally get where they are coming from, because who would not get angry under those conditions?

And also, just because they (understandably) let some of their frustrations out here, doesn't mean they always act completely emotional around Theists. Most people here are in fact very kind, friendly people who do live and let live from day to day. They aren't telling their old grandmother that she's not really going to heaven, every time they see her (well not all of them do Eye-wink ).

I've read many of Hamby's posts (He's the OP of this thread), and I know by now that he is a smart, friendly, knowledgable and reasonable person, and when he writes "humiliate" I know excactly what he means. He's not talking about standing outside creationist's funeral with a sign that says "The Universe hates Creationists"

He's asking us, he's likeminded peers, to give suggestions for a witty, intellegent way to protest ignorance and bigotry, and perhaps get a few fencesitters to consider a thing or two.

You are responding very aggressively to a single word, that I must tell you, I think you are reading all the wrong things into.

I know why you are doing it: you want the world to be a better place. That's an honourable thing, and certainly the world doesn't get better if Atheists are just as bigoted and hateful as the opposition.

But I urge you to hang around the forums for a while and "shoot the breeze" as it were, with the people here. Sure they laugh at theists alot, but they also engage them in friendly conversation and they talk about their religious family members, and about other theists that they deal with from day to day, and that they certainly "let live".

You need to get to know people like Hamby, before you can assume that he is a huge bigot, that would like nothing better than to set fire to the Creationist museum.

And just to finish off: maybe there are people here that are just loudmouthed bigots, but firstly, for some of them, It is understandable to me, even if I still think they are wrong, because I consider that they have to deal with fundementalism every day, which I do not. And even if they have no "excuse" for their behavior, that just goes to show that dickheads come in all shapes and sizes, something I knew long before I came to the RRS. And they don't represent all of the RRS, anymore than they represent all atheists.

 

Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin


Kevin R Brown
Superfan
Kevin R Brown's picture
Posts: 3142
Joined: 2007-06-24
User is offlineOffline
The problem, flog, is that

The problem, flog, is that it's not just a matter of informing them. They've been informed, dozens of times over. They refuse to listen because the God meme has so tightly wound itself around their brains, they're genuinely afraid of the notion that life isn't eternal and they're even more afraid that they might go to Hell if they listen to reason.

 

Ridicule is our best weapon here. Demonstrating their beliefs as laughably ridiculous perhaps won't convince them of anything, but at least it'll make it far less attractive an idea to sign-up for their cult.

Hamby... you said there was a college in your town, right? Are you on friendly terms with any of the professors there, by chance? A more elaborate and time/resource consuming idea, but one that would rock, would be to get a bunch of experts from the college and set-up a big outdoor display across the street from the 'museum' where you demonstrate scientific dating methods, explain the most recent/credible abiogenesis theories, evolution, etc (Sagan had this awesome, really simple experiment he did on Cosmos where he took a huge vat of gas and catalyzed a reaction where it condensed into organic chemicals. Really cool stuff).

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


flog
Theist
Posts: 14
Joined: 2007-01-09
User is offlineOffline
ps Jill

Given that these same Creationists will not listen to reason (literally). Given that these same creationists want thier fantasy taught as science in public schools (meaning stuffing their fantasy down the throats of children of families who do not share thier delusions).

 

What would you have us do? You're quick to say what not to do, so how about a positive suggestion?

I'm sure we're willing to listen, but if your answer is "I don't know" then kindly keep your opinions to yourself. The conversation is about what to do, not what not to do.

 

No there are many ways to get a message across.  In fact Creationism has really quite literally been killed by the court system to be taught in school.  That battle has been fought and won.  I believe everyone should have a right to free speech and use things like the court system to stand up for certain causes.  I also think educating not humiliating people in an honorable manner is the way to go. 

I also think going to the news channels locally and presenting the opinion is another great avenue as well as making websites such as these to speak to people about the other views out there.  There are many ways to get the message across and try to educate people and do productive debates.  I'm all for that but when your method is to do things like try to start trouble calling authorities and inspectors unneccessarily to be a jerk I think that crosses the line.  I'm all for various other methods. 

Personally I don't believe as many creationists do such as the world being only 6000 years old and not millions to billions of years old.  The bible itself does not even give that idea.  See above a few posts up.  I can only try to educate them, but if I try to humiliate or demean them all it does is shut them up in their bubble even more strongly and allows even more ignorance to flourish.  We don't want to be counterproductive. 


JillSwift
Superfan
JillSwift's picture
Posts: 1758
Joined: 2008-01-13
User is offlineOffline
flog wrote:No there are many

flog wrote:
No there are many ways to get a message across.  In fact Creationism has really quite literally been killed by the court system to be taught in school.  That battle has been fought and won.
Nope. It's not about the courts, it's about the people.

flog wrote:
  I believe everyone should have a right to free speech and use things like the court system to stand up for certain causes.  I also think educating not humiliating people in an honorable manner is the way to go. 

I also think going to the news channels locally and presenting the opinion is another great avenue as well as making websites such as these to speak to people about the other views out there.  There are many ways to get the message across and try to educate people and do productive debates.  I'm all for that but when your method is to do things like try to start trouble calling authorities and inspectors unneccessarily to be a jerk I think that crosses the line.  I'm all for various other methods. 

Personally I don't believe as many creationists do such as the world being only 6000 years old and not millions to billions of years old.  The bible itself does not even give that idea.  See above a few posts up.  I can only try to educate them, but if I try to humiliate or demean them all it does is shut them up in their bubble even more strongly and allows even more ignorance to flourish.  We don't want to be counterproductive.

There you go again with what not to do.

I'd love to educate 'em. But, as I said, they won't listen. It's not about reason and evidence and facts, it's about indoctrination and emotions and morality.

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


shelley
ModeratorRRS local affiliate
shelley's picture
Posts: 1859
Joined: 2006-12-26
User is offlineOffline
Kevin R Brown wrote:Hamby...

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Hamby... you said there was a college in your town, right? Are you on friendly terms with any of the professors there, by chance? A more elaborate and time/resource consuming idea, but one that would rock, would be to get a bunch of experts from the college and set-up a big outdoor display across the street from the 'museum' where you demonstrate scientific dating methods, explain the most recent/credible abiogenesis theories, evolution, etc (Sagan had this awesome, really simple experiment he did on Cosmos where he took a huge vat of gas and catalyzed a reaction where it condensed into organic chemicals. Really cool stuff).

Cool but unlikely that people will actually stop and read.  Go in the place when it's up, take a few pictures and debunk one or two things quickly and humorously - maybe include a link for more information.  Hell the link could host Kevin's idea.  Pick things that make them look absolutely ridiculous (I know it all does but the easier an average person can see the insanity, the better) and print it up on a one page flyer.


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Quote:But it didn't take me

Quote:
But it didn't take me long to get an impression of what the people here were all about. They are the minority where they are from, and just stating that they don't really consider themselves religious is enough to get them fired, scorned, feared, attacked, not to mention being disowned by their own family.

This isn't an exaggeration.  I've had death threats over my private email account.  I've been black balled by a teacher's union.  I've been curiously dismissed from a job.  Though I haven't been officially disowned because of religion, I'd be lying if I told you I was on good terms with my family.

Quote:

He's asking us, he's likeminded peers, to give suggestions for a witty, intellegent way to protest ignorance and bigotry, and perhaps get a few fencesitters to consider a thing or two.

You are responding very aggressively to a single word, that I must tell you, I think you are reading all the wrong things into.

Precisely.

While we're on the subject of the word, let's dig into it a bit:

 hu·mil·i·ate /hyuˈmɪliˌeɪt or, often, yu-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hyoo-mil-ee-eyt or, often, yoo-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –verb (used with object), -at·ed, -at·ing. to cause (a person) a painful loss of pride, self-respect, or dignity; mortify.

It's really ignorant to believe the world is six thousand years old when every library in America has books proving that it's much older.  It's ignorant and dangerous to mold belief systems about the world on a book written by Bronze Age bigots and xenophobes.  It's ignorant and dangerous to mold belief systems about human nature based on the same misogynist, bigoted, xenophobic, patriarchal Bronze Age ignorant humans.

Yet people do all of these things, and it's important that they not be allowed to do so unimpeded.  They're dangerous to themselves and others -- and to me personally.  I have taken it as my personal responsibility to do to things:  First, I'm trying to educate the ignorant.  Second, I'm trying to show others just how ridiculous and dangerous theist beliefs are.  It's often humiliating to be shown publicly to be an ignorant bigot.  So what?  There are a lot of things that are painful and yet good for us in the long run.

I stand by my word choice.  People who believe the world is 6000 years old need to be publicly shamed.  They need to be laughed at.  Their beliefs are stupid!  There's no excuse for a creation museum existing when 95% of America is supposedly literate.

Quote:

But I urge you to hang around the forums for a while and "shoot the breeze" as it were, with the people here. Sure they laugh at theists alot, but they also engage them in friendly conversation and they talk about their religious family members, and about other theists that they deal with from day to day, and that they certainly "let live".

You need to get to know people like Hamby, before you can assume that he is a huge bigot, that would like nothing better than to set fire to the Creationist museum.

If you read my writings for any length of time, you'll realize that I am here because of human compassion.  I want to end the power of religion because of the harm it does to those who believe it and those they oppress.  I don't hate theists.  In fact, I pity them and I want to help them.  You can object to my hard nosed approach if you want, but you really should follow my posts and writings a little closer before you accuse me of bigotry.  I don't think you could be farther from the truth about me.

In short, if it takes a little public humiliation to end the power of religion for everybody, that's something I'm willing to do.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism