It works for me!

Fonzie
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It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


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Fonzie wrote:   As far as

Fonzie wrote:

 

 

 

As far as you wanting some Bible Threats and Scriptures you can get Those with a couple of clicks as you well know.

 

 

    I was a Protestant Christian for a quarter of a century, I know the threats from memory.

 

    PS, please do not return to this forum again claiming that we atheists have not yet defined what the "it" ( to use your term ) is behind atheism.  I clearly laid "it" out for you in plain english and in terms so simple even an idiot could understand it.  Perhaps you should bookmark it ( post#4045 )  for future reference.


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Fonzie, others here have the

Fonzie, others here have the patience for slow sentance by sentance deconstruction of your arguments. I am not one of them

The fact is that you like what you believe. The fact is your are basing that on your own desires and it has nothing to do with anything provable. The bible is an old book of myth. It is not a history book or science textbook. 

 

You, like every believer of every god claimed in human history are merely projecting your own desire of imortality into the form of a god claim. You are using kaliedoscope logic to justify your position. It is no different when Muslims or Jews or Hindus logic when they defend those other gods. Humans make up gods and you are no different.

You might as well be defending Harry Potter or Star Wars and make religions out of those and argue from those works of fiction.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


zarathustra
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The Trolls' responses were so repetitive and formulaic that one could practically predict how It would respond...

Quote:
Fonzie, others here have the patience for slow sentance by sentance deconstruction of your arguments. I am not one of them
None here are patient enough to wait for god to reveal himself, and seek easy material answers.  Job showed great patience, and was rewarded in the end.

Quote:
The fact is that you like what you believe. The fact is your are basing that on your own desires and it has nothing to do with anything provable. The bible is an old book of myth. It is not a history book or science textbook.
I like the Truth, and jesus is the Truth.  jesus has proven himself to me by saving me from my own sinful desires.  The bible is the eternal Word, and cannot be refuted by the myth of evolution. 

Quote:
Humans make up gods and you are no different.
Humans make up false gods, but only the One True god made humans.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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Fonzie
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THE LOVERS OF HARSH REALITY ::: THE THESIS YET UNWRITTEN

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Nobody on this forum has ever laid "it" out.  Why not become the first.  Or both you and Sapient can team up to explain the joy and wonders of atheism to the hoy paloy.    

   

 

    The "it" behind atheism is having the courage of facing reality as it actually exists, not as we wish it to be.   Reality doesn't always comfort or soothe our human fears  especially regarding life and death.  I prefer harsh reality ( aka, "truth" ) to comforting lies.  That is the "it" behind atheism.   Christianity ( and all religions ) are simply an emotional buffer for people too weak to deal with life face to face.   You can keep insisting how "happy happy happy" you are.   You do it for your own benefit, not ours.

I was a Protestant Christian for a quarter of a century, I know the threats from memory

PS, please do not return to this forum again claiming that we atheists have not yet defined the "it" (to use your term) is behind atheism.  I clearly laid "it" out for you in plain english and in terms so simple even an idiot could understand it.  Perhaps you should bookmark it (post # 4045) for future reference

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prozac,

This example of "it" you've laid out is as oblique and unacceptable as it gets - like not collecting stamps for a hobby, not even a Cliff's Notes version yet you bill it as the pie'ce de r'esistance of atheist doctrine.  Please prefer the harsh reality that in truth it's nothing but a stale fortune cookie wish.   It only shrugs off problems as if the solution is unavailable - or only solved by keeping the eyes shut, the lie of atheism alive, ignoring the miracle of life and letting a smirk be your umbrella.

It's been a reoccuring formulaically predictable phenomenon for atheists to refer back to a time long long ago in a place far far away...where, "yeah we answered all that, we laid it all out".  But when you look for "it" "it" "it's" not there...or, again doesn't exist, even if done with hubris even a fool like me can see that.  It's like the dog ate the homework then ate his vomit or was it the pig not staying clean, anyway...     

BTW I don't see Christianity as an emotional thing at all.  Please don't come on here saying I haven't made it clear that feelings are like weather - not to be relied on good or bad.  I can see some happenings that would understandably leave that false impression - but not for long with the guy who prefers harsh reality to comforting lies.  

There is no problem with the Scripture BTW. You're an example of someone on this forum that gave up on Christ then made it out to be Christ's problem not yours.  Use your formula and see what I what harsh reality I think about that.  (/ zero)   

 

PS I am happy, happy, happy BTW

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Brian37
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 No Fonzie it is an

 No Fonzie it is an emotional thing with you, otherwise you could go beyond your ownpersonal bias and have your claims tested and falsified in a neutral lab you have no hand in setting up. Nothing in this entire thread argued by you is neutral.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


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The same case used to

The same case used to justify religion, ie "it makes people happy" could also be made for pumping anti-depressant drugs into the water supply. Actually that would probably do less long-term harm.

 

 

 

Anyone who cites "the bible" or religion as a definitive authority on...well, anything at all really, is effectively claiming that the pinnacle of human developement & acheivement, was during the Bronze Age. Which to any reasonably inteligent person, is frankly preposterous.

Ne te confundum illigitimi!!


ProzacDeathWish
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Fonzie

Fonzie wrote:
 

Prozac,

This example of "it" you've laid out is as oblique and unacceptable as it gets - like not collecting stamps for a hobby, not even a Cliff's Notes version yet you bill it as the pie'ce de r'esistance of atheist doctrine.  Please prefer the harsh reality that in truth it's nothing but a stale fortune cookie wish.   It only shrugs off problems as if the solution is unavailable - or only solved by keeping the eyes shut, the lie of atheism alive, ignoring the miracle of life and letting a smirk be your umbrella.

It's been a reoccuring formulaically predictable phenomenon for atheists to refer back to a time long long ago in a place far far away...where, "yeah we answered all that, we laid it all out".  But when you look for "it" "it" "it's" not there...or, again doesn't exist, even if done with hubris even a fool like me can see that.  It's like the dog ate the homework then ate his vomit or was it the pig not staying clean, anyway...

 

          I'm sure there's a cogent message hidden within all that obfuscation and metaphorical gibberish. 

 

Fonzie wrote:
BTW I don't see Christianity as an emotional thing at all.  Please don't come on here saying I haven't made it clear that feelings are like weather - not to be relied on good or bad.  I can see some happenings that would understandably leave that false impression - but not for long with the guy who prefers harsh reality to comforting lies.  

There is no problem with the Scripture BTW. You're an example of someone on this forum that gave up on Christ then made it out to be Christ's problem not yours.  Use your formula and see what I what harsh reality I think about that.  (/ zero)   

 

PS I am happy, happy, happy BTW

 

     Ted Bundy was "happy" when he murdered young women and had sex with their dead bodies...and now you're happy, too.  That makes me happy.

 


Brian37
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Fonzie wrote:nikimoto

Fonzie wrote:

nikimoto wrote:


 

 

 Don't delay! Send for your Bible Harness today!

 

 

 


Warnings and legal notices:

 

 There's good humor in that and it illustrates a misunderstanding of scripture that is easy to fall into.  But you also illustrate something I would love - to have the whole Bible inhaled into my heart and mind and spirit at once, and held.  I once envied the capacity to memorize large amounts of Scripture.  I don't have that capacity.

 

What's not to understand? Men magically popping out of dirt. Women magically popping out of a man's rib. Talking snakes, talking donkeys, talking bushes. The sun and moon being treated as separate sources of light. Babies being born without a second set of DNA.  Zombie gods surviving rigor mortis.

We understand. We understand that that book took over a 1,000 years to write, by mere mortals and wasn't even canonized until after the fact. None of the gospels were written during the alleged time claimed in the bible itself, but after the fact. We understand the writers did not have modern scientific tools. We understand that power and divinity were falsely associated by even polytheism. We understand that the Character names of the OT were taken by the splinter Yawheists who became Hebrews from Cananite Polytheism. 

We do understand, and that is why we are atheists.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


zarathustra
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...one could practically predict how the Troll would respond...

Quote:
What's not to understand? Men magically popping out of dirt. Women magically popping out of a man's rib. Talking snakes, talking donkeys, talking bushes. The sun and moon being treated as separate sources of light. Babies being born without a second set of DNA.  Zombie gods surviving rigor mortis.
What you don't understand is that all things are possible through god the almighty.  There are more things in heaven than are dreamed of in your materialistic philosophy.

Quote:
We understand. We understand that that book took over a 1,000 years to write, by mere mortals and wasn't even canonized until after the fact. None of the gospels were written during the alleged time claimed in the bible itself, but after the fact. We understand the writers did not have modern scientific tools. We understand that power and divinity were falsely associated by even polytheism. We understand that the Character names of the OT were taken by the splinter Yawheists who became Hebrews from Cananite Polytheism. 

We do understand, and that is why we are atheists.

1,000 years is but a moment to the eternal Creator.  You do not understand that mere mortals can be guided by the holy spirit, and no scientific tool can discover god as accurately as the gift of Faith.  You do not understand that yahweh commanded his people to not to worship the false idols of polytheism (the First Commandment).  

You do not want to understand the one true god, and that is why you are atheists.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:ProzacDeathWish

Fonzie wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Nobody on this forum has ever laid "it" out.  Why not become the first.  Or both you and Sapient can team up to explain the joy and wonders of atheism to the hoy paloy.    

   

 

    The "it" behind atheism is having the courage of facing reality as it actually exists, not as we wish it to be.   Reality doesn't always comfort or soothe our human fears  especially regarding life and death.  I prefer harsh reality ( aka, "truth" ) to comforting lies.  That is the "it" behind atheism.   Christianity ( and all religions ) are simply an emotional buffer for people too weak to deal with life face to face.   You can keep insisting how "happy happy happy" you are.   You do it for your own benefit, not ours.

I was a Protestant Christian for a quarter of a century, I know the threats from memory

PS, please do not return to this forum again claiming that we atheists have not yet defined the "it" (to use your term) is behind atheism.  I clearly laid "it" out for you in plain english and in terms so simple even an idiot could understand it.  Perhaps you should bookmark it (post # 4045) for future reference

  

 

Prozac,

This example of "it" you've laid out is as oblique and unacceptable as it gets - like not collecting stamps for a hobby, not even a Cliff's Notes version yet you bill it as the pie'ce de r'esistance of atheist doctrine.  Please prefer the harsh reality that in truth it's nothing but a stale fortune cookie wish.   It only shrugs off problems as if the solution is unavailable - or only solved by keeping the eyes shut, the lie of atheism alive, ignoring the miracle of life and letting a smirk be your umbrella.

It's been a reoccuring formulaically predictable phenomenon for atheists to refer back to a time long long ago in a place far far away...where, "yeah we answered all that, we laid it all out".  But when you look for "it" "it" "it's" not there...or, again doesn't exist, even if done with hubris even a fool like me can see that.  It's like the dog ate the homework then ate his vomit or was it the pig not staying clean, anyway...     

BTW I don't see Christianity as an emotional thing at all.  Please don't come on here saying I haven't made it clear that feelings are like weather - not to be relied on good or bad.  I can see some happenings that would understandably leave that false impression - but not for long with the guy who prefers harsh reality to comforting lies.  

There is no problem with the Scripture BTW. You're an example of someone on this forum that gave up on Christ then made it out to be Christ's problem not yours.  Use your formula and see what I what harsh reality I think about that.  (/ zero)   

 

PS I am happy, happy, happy BTW

You still don't get it, Fonzie. There is no "atheist doctrine" - we simply don't accept any 'doctrine' that is based on belief in a 'God' of any kind. In that sense it really is like a hobby that is defined as 'not collecting stamps'. That's the point.

If and when we want to know something the world, about reality, what we should base our lives on, and so on, we generally prefer to look for ideas based on some decent level of credible evidence, but once we get away from the non-acceptance of God, we are no longer discussing 'Atheism', but various individual's personal philosophies of life, which can vary over a very wide range. If an individual 'atheist' holds to some system of thought that could be described as a 'doctrine', that is up to them. As long as they don't believe in a God, they still 'qualify' as atheist.

So if your conviction that the Bible is all true is not based on emotions, feelings, what is it based on? Do you actually have objective, independently verifiable evidence? Or are you just accepting the authority of some source, such as the Bible?

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Fonzie
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ATHEISM JUST THE DOOR TO NOWHERE - I GET IT

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Nobody on this forum has ever laid "it" out.  Why not become the first.  Or both you and Sapient can team up to explain the joy and wonders of atheism to the hoy paloy.    

   

 

    The "it" behind atheism is having the courage of facing reality as it actually exists, not as we wish it to be.   Reality doesn't always comfort or soothe our human fears  especially regarding life and death.  I prefer harsh reality ( aka, "truth" ) to comforting lies.  That is the "it" behind atheism.   Christianity ( and all religions ) are simply an emotional buffer for people too weak to deal with life face to face.   You can keep insisting how "happy happy happy" you are.   You do it for your own benefit, not ours.

I was a Protestant Christian for a quarter of a century, I know the threats from memory

PS, please do not return to this forum again claiming that we atheists have not yet defined the "it" (to use your term) is behind atheism.  I clearly laid "it" out for you in plain english and in terms so simple even an idiot could understand it.  Perhaps you should bookmark it (post # 4045) for future reference

  

 

Prozac,

This example of "it" you've laid out is as oblique and unacceptable as it gets - like not collecting stamps for a hobby, not even a Cliff's Notes version yet you bill it as the pie'ce de r'esistance of atheist doctrine.  Please prefer the harsh reality that in truth it's nothing but a stale fortune cookie wish.   It only shrugs off problems as if the solution is unavailable - or only solved by keeping the eyes shut, the lie of atheism alive, ignoring the miracle of life and letting a smirk be your umbrella.

It's been a reoccuring formulaically predictable phenomenon for atheists to refer back to a time long long ago in a place far far away...where, "yeah we answered all that, we laid it all out".  But when you look for "it" "it" "it's" not there...or, again doesn't exist, even if done with hubris even a fool like me can see that.  It's like the dog ate the homework then ate his vomit or was it the pig not staying clean, anyway...     

BTW I don't see Christianity as an emotional thing at all.  Please don't come on here saying I haven't made it clear that feelings are like weather - not to be relied on good or bad.  I can see some happenings that would understandably leave that false impression - but not for long with the guy who prefers harsh reality to comforting lies.  

There is no problem with the Scripture BTW. You're an example of someone on this forum that gave up on Christ then made it out to be Christ's problem not yours.  Use your formula and see what I what harsh reality I think about that.  (/ zero)   

 

PS I am happy, happy, happy BTW

You still don't get it, Fonzie. There is no "atheist doctrine" - we simply don't accept any 'doctrine' that is based on belief in a 'God' of any kind. In that sense it really is like a hobby that is defined as 'not collecting stamps'. That's the point.

If and when we want to know something the world, about reality, what we should base our lives on, and so on, we generally prefer to look for ideas based on some decent level of credible evidence, but once we get away from the non-acceptance of God, we are no longer discussing 'Atheism', but various individual's personal philosophies of life, which can vary over a very wide range. If an individual 'atheist' holds to some system of thought that could be described as a 'doctrine', that is up to them. As long as they don't believe in a God, they still 'qualify' as atheist.

So if your conviction that the Bible is all true is not based on emotions, feelings, what is it based on? Do you actually have objective, independently verifiable evidence? Or are you just accepting the authority of some source, such as the Bible?

 

 

 

 

Bob,

That was a pretty good explanation of the fact that atheism is just the door to nowhere - then pick your own form of nowhere.  

You still don't get it either, Bob.  Things are "proven" in the unseen spiritual realm in a different way than things you prove in science, physics and math.  How do you "prove" friendship, sincerity, courage or motive for example.  Unseen things are proven in unseen ways.  The Fact that Christ is Alive and Here Working with us and in us along with His Word - and the Truth and Power of the gospel all prove themselves but not in the physical dimension - rather in the spiritual dimension, which is the eternal dimension.  This is why Jesus used parables like the one about the various soils receiving or rejecting the seed of the Word of God.  In saying, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." He was trying to get people like you in Australia to look at physical things from a spiritual viewpoint.  It's simple - but not if you don't have any faith.  If you have just a little it can grow - but not in a way you or I understand any more than how corn grows (where the "life" comes from).  If you work at killing and rejecting and putting agent orange on all the seeds of faith you can "get 'er done" and maybe become an eternal companion of Mr. Bundy who knows not me.  Better practice sleeping with one eye open.   

 

 


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Just logic and reason Fonzie

 Fonzie

 

It is obvious that you believe in jesus and the bible.  I am not sure how anyone who considers themselves intellectual could read the bible and find happiness and joy from it?  It is by far the most sadistic evil book known to man in my opinion.  All I need to do is speak of Noah and the flood.  Fonzie please tell me how you can justify mass murder on a global scale?  In what world is that even considered to be ok?  You believe it true, and you accept as if it was justifiable.  How can you follow a god, that knew he was going to murder all these people before he ever set the universe and man into action.  This is an old example, but its like the painter blaming the painting for not looking the way he wanted it to look, so he destroys the painting.  This mythical deity knew in his foresight that man would ultimately get it wrong in his eyes, even though he created them to be sinners.  Then despite this creation, this knowledge, he still decided to create man, allow man to flourish, and then murdered everyone on the planet other 7 people, whom he thought were righteous, yet still Knew they would betray him? Doesn't make much sense to me.  So just knowing that story alone, I would never follow a god that would cause such horrific suffering and carnage, all the while pasing buck and blaming his creations for the very sinning nature he created within them.  Man I could go on and on about some of the shit in the bible that just sickens me.  I think the best though is that god decided the world and humanity needed saving from their sinful ways, which again he gave them.  So what does he do, he sends a savior, himself, to purge all the sinners from their sinful ways.  So this time, when their are actually people on their earth, instead of poofing jesus into existence like Adam and Eve, he chose the virgin birth scenerio.  Why not just poof jesus into existence, I mean he could do that right.  

 

Anyway Fonzie, I would much rather see you spend your time enjoying this world as it is, through nature and science.  It truly is a wonderous place that we only get a short time to enjoy.  So enjoy it, instead of wasting your time believing in fairy tales.  Just my two cents.

 

Joe

 

PS I am the worst typist and have really bad hands, so please excuse typo's. Smiling 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

 

Bob,

That was a pretty good explanation of the fact that atheism is just the door to nowhere - then pick your own form of nowhere.  

You still don't get it either, Bob.  Things are "proven" in the unseen spiritual realm in a different way than things you prove in science, physics and math.  How do you "prove" friendship, sincerity, courage or motive for example.  Unseen things are proven in unseen ways.  The Fact that Christ is Alive and Here Working with us and in us along with His Word - and the Truth and Power of the gospel all prove themselves but not in the physical dimension - rather in the spiritual dimension, which is the eternal dimension.  This is why Jesus used parables like the one about the various soils receiving or rejecting the seed of the Word of God.  In saying, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." He was trying to get people like you in Australia to look at physical things from a spiritual viewpoint.  It's simple - but not if you don't have any faith.  If you have just a little it can grow - but not in a way you or I understand any more than how corn grows (where the "life" comes from).  If you work at killing and rejecting and putting agent orange on all the seeds of faith you can "get 'er done" and maybe become an eternal companion of Mr. Bundy who knows not me.  Better practice sleeping with one eye open.   

 

Fonzie, while it may be true that 'Atheism' by itself does not lead anywhere, it does mean that the person is free to fully and honestly investigate many things which a strong God belief may discourage. It is not the door to knowledge and truth, it just removes a major pitfall into ignorance and error, that blocks that door.

All those human emotions and behaviours you list can certainly seen and/or their effects demonstrated to exist, therefore they certainly can be, and are, the subject of scientific study of the mind, such as in Psychology, and Neuroscience, which studies the brain structures and mechanisms, which generate and control them. These studies also help us understand all the ways the brain can fail and are progressively helping us deal with the unfortunate consequences of such failures.

If something has no perceptible or measureable effect on an individuals behaviour, including the way he converses or what he talks about, or on anything else, it probably doesn't exist. If it does have observable effects, it can be studied by Science. And claims about its nature and causes can be tested and shown to be probably true or false, by the normal means of empirical Science. 'Unseen' things can still be 'proven', as long as they have detectable effects. If they don't, you have no grounds for claiming they exist at all.

We do have a pretty good idea of the underlying processes of Life, thanks to discoveries such as DNA, which has allowed us, among many other things, to manipulate the breeding and growth of foodstuffs such as corn, some of which have given us hope of improving food production to meet the needs of an ever-growing population. So while we still don't understand every detail, we know vastly more than the people of Biblical times, no thanks to the Bible.

We also have at least some plausible ideas about the origin of life, which only needs the simplest form which is capable of reproducing itself, which may be little more than molecules of RNA. Once the simplest self-reproducing life-form exists, evolution can take place, and so lead to ever more complex forms.

So Fonzie, did you understand any of that? I don't expect you to accept it, but do you want clarification of what I was trying to tell you on any particular points?

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Fonzie
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THE CUP VERSUS THE POTTER

ksskidude wrote:

 Fonzie

 

It is obvious that you believe in jesus and the bible.  I am not sure how anyone who considers themselves intellectual could read the bible and find happiness and joy from it?  It is by far the most sadistic evil book known to man in my opinion.  All I need to do is speak of Noah and the flood.  Fonzie please tell me how you can justify mass murder on a global scale?  In what world is that even considered to be ok?  You believe it true, and you accept as if it was justifiable.  How can you follow a god, that knew he was going to murder all these people before he ever set the universe and man into action.  This is an old example, but its like the painter blaming the painting for not looking the way he wanted it to look, so he destroys the painting.  This mythical deity knew in his foresight that man would ultimately get it wrong in his eyes, even though he created them to be sinners.  Then despite this creation, this knowledge, he still decided to create man, allow man to flourish, and then murdered everyone on the planet other 7 people, whom he thought were righteous, yet still Knew they would betray him? Doesn't make much sense to me.  So just knowing that story alone, I would never follow a god that would cause such horrific suffering and carnage, all the while pasing buck and blaming his creations for the very sinning nature he created within them.  Man I could go on and on about some of the shit in the bible that just sickens me.  I think the best though is that god decided the world and humanity needed saving from their sinful ways, which again he gave them.  So what does he do, he sends a savior, himself, to purge all the sinners from their sinful ways.  So this time, when their are actually people on their earth, instead of poofing jesus into existence like Adam and Eve, he chose the virgin birth scenerio.  Why not just poof jesus into existence, I mean he could do that right.  

 

Anyway Fonzie, I would much rather see you spend your time enjoying this world as it is, through nature and science.  It truly is a wonderous place that we only get a short time to enjoy.  So enjoy it, instead of wasting your time believing in fairy tales.  Just my two cents.

 

Joe

 

PS I am the worst typist and have really bad hands, so please excuse typo's. Smiling 

 

 

 

Joe,

I made a coffee table when I was in high school that won first and had been quite a struggle coming down to the end - somebody dropped a clamp on it the last week and I had to steam it and redo the finish.  The tape from the ribbon pulled part of the finish off.  

Later when I had children the table was stored at my parents' house.  By then I understood the razor sharp corners would be lethal so I tore it up knowing I could always make another one and make it right.  I think I had the right to make that decision.  

I think when God has Created these people and Knows He can Create more it looks a little different to Him than us.  Anyway, everything God does is Right and Righteous.  

The thing you mention like Noah (who preached to the people for over 100 years with no success) - which could be maybe called "the dark side of love" I know is a hard thing for a person to understand or accept with a casual view of the Bible and without entering through the Door - Christ, which you haven't.  And I also have wondered why God didn't maybe send Jesus on the scene 45 minutes after Adam and Eve sinned.  You could conclude God isn't an American.  But God Dwells in the Heavens and does What He Pleases.  And What He Does Pleases me.  

A lot of thing are hard to accept in life Joe - even other then God.  No one is shielded from these things that happen.  Because I have total confidence in God I can approach any problem or tragedy hard to accept knowing it can have a good result, IOW totally confident God knows what He's doing, knowing I have the Promise I won't be sent more than I can bear.  And I am enjoying life more than I could ever have imagined.  I'm getting somewhere.  The Instructions I'm following are all going the same direction - and not changing.  It all works.   

This thing you mentioned that Jesus came became a man - 100% man and 100% God, born of the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin -  and died for our sins, became sin for us, took our sins upon Himself then Rose from the grave and Lives with us - if you accepted that gospel in faith then you would understand Justice and Mercy.  Sin has a price - death.  Justice had to be served.  God took it upon Himself and if we believe in Jesus it is reckoned as Righteousness.  If we accept God's Gift He gives us the Wedding Garment.  

God takes sin so seriously that He let His Only Begotten Son be tortured and crucified after living a perfect life becoming the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world - because He So Loved the world.  This is mercy offered.  There is no other way to be saved than through Jesus - believing in Jesus.  If there was another way Jesus wouldn't have had to die.  And if you try to use another way you're saying you don't need what Jesus did which in the end will be seen to be the only way.  With God's Way of Salvation All the Glory is His.  When we try to help out we only mess it all up for ourselves and for others watching from the outside in.    

I don't consider myself intellectual Joe or even think that is a realistic position to stake out -  but I do believe all the Bible just like the fishermen that spread it and I study it every day.  When I apply it - it proves itself.  It's the best companion ever - faithful.  It's more precious than gold or all you could desire.  When I'm going through my day the Word of God talks to me.  I think viewing yourself as intellectual would be a barrier to discovering the Treasure.  Pride and arrogance are great snares for people.  

I'm sure I can't solve the question for you but if you really have desire to find out for yourself you can read it, take it in, think about it, maybe seeds of faith would grow.  If not, at least you would have experienced and rejected (if) the Word of God for yourself rather than the way it came through somebody else.

There are several examples in the Bible Joe that show God appreciates honest questions like yours.  Jonah honestly questioned God, so did Job.  If you're really looking for the answers you can find them.  If you're looking for something else - you'll probably find that. 

Here's a Proverb for you:  "He who diligently seeks good seeks favor, but evil comes to him who searches for it."  Is the problem intellect?  Obviously not.  The problem is the heart.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Quote:
Fonzie, while it may be true that 'Atheism' by itself does not lead anywhere, it does mean that the person is free to fully and honestly investigate many things which a strong God belief may discourage. It is not the door to knowledge and truth, it just removes a major pitfall into ignorance and error. It unblocks the door.
god is the source of all knowledge and Truth, and atheism leads away from it.  Without jesus Lighting your way, you are only wandering in darkness.

Quote:
If something has no perceptible or measureable effect on an individuals behaviour, including the way he converses or what he talks about, it probably doesn't exist. If it does have observable effects, it can be studied by Science. And claims about its nature and causes can be tested and shown to be probably true or false, by the normal means of empirical Science. 'Unseen' things can still be 'proven', as long as they have detectable effects. If they don't, you have no grounds for claiming they exist at all.
I have observed the effect jesus had had on my life.  Of course you won't observe jesus until you invite him into your soul.

Quote:
We do have a pretty good idea of the underlying processes of Life, thanks to discoveries such as DNA, which has allowed us, among many other things, to manipulate the breeding and growth of foodstuffs such as corn, some of which have given us hope of improving food production to meet the needs of an ever-growing population. So while we still don't understand every detail, we know vastly more than the people of Biblical times, no thanks to the Bible.
Only through the word of god can you understand the underlying process of eternal salvation. jesus fed the multitude, with baskets of leftovers.  Those who believe in Him will be fed on the Bread of Life, more wholesome than any corn genetically modified by sinful man.  

There are no theists on operating tables.

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 Yes, the fact that belief

 Yes, the fact that belief in Jesus has had an observed effect on your life certainly proves that that that personal belief is real, of course.

But, you need much more than that to prove that the belief is true, ie, that the being believed in really exists, not just as an idea in your mind. IOW, the effect has to be something that cannot possibly be caused by your actions alone, and would be impossible without the intervention of a being with powers you claim he possesses.

The classic claim is typically 'magically' curing some illness or disability, and the now standard response is a to ask if you can give an example of God or Jesus causing someone to completely re-grow a lost limb. Which would be observable by other people and hard to dispute.

My point was that the reality of supernatural claims can be investigated in the physical 'realm', ie scientifically. And these days, that includes things of the mind as well.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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LABOR PAINS OF UNBELIEF

BobSpence wrote:

 Yes, the fact that belief in Jesus has had an observed effect on your life certainly proves that that that personal belief is real, of course.

But, you need much more than that to prove that the belief is true, ie, that the being believed in really exists, not just as an idea in your mind. IOW, the effect has to be something that cannot possibly be caused by your actions alone, and would be impossible without the intervention of a being with powers you claim he possesses.

The classic claim is typically 'magically' curing some illness or disability, and the now standard response is a to ask if you can give an example of God or Jesus causing someone to completely re-grow a lost limb. Which would be observable by other people and hard to dispute.

My point was that the reality of supernatural claims can be investigated in the physical 'realm', ie scientifically. And these days, that includes things of the mind as well.

 

 

 

Bob, 

In Acts the 3rd and 4th the religious leaders are faced with a lame man cured - an example of your desired proof.  Do they deny the miracle?  No.  (you would have to be a far removed modern day seminary scholar to do that).  Are they moved by the fact of the miracle?  Not at all.  They were just worried about the spread of this message they disagreed with.  The same problem exists today - not with the mind and the facts, with the heart.  

The need for me to prove Jesus and Scripture to myself doesn't exist.  Neither does the need fo me to prove it all to you or others.  If there is an honest desire to understand I can help with, sure.  Then progress can be made.  Until then I can't restrain wind.  

As for your contention in #5905 that being an atheist will make you smarter and able to investigate things that would be blocked by faith in God and Jesus - I don't buy it.  True freedom isn't represented by being able to do anything and everything.  True freedom is enjoyed within bounds which exclude things that would destroy you.  I don't need to conduct certain experiments to be in the know.  

As far as your fellow campers "having a pretty good understanding of the underlying processes of life" - I think you've peeked under the couch no doubt.  And you probably get the "feeling" that "knowledge is here" when you enter the sanctuary of higher learning in its display of many splendored false impressions.  And you can let flow several "words of the day" that could give the impression you know something - which, since you don't Know Jesus - is simply not true.  You don't know the first thing about Life - because you don't know the Source and Author.  

You say "prove it"?  It'll happen when a wild ass's colt is born a man. 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 Yes, the fact that belief in Jesus has had an observed effect on your life certainly proves that that that personal belief is real, of course.

But, you need much more than that to prove that the belief is true, ie, that the being believed in really exists, not just as an idea in your mind. IOW, the effect has to be something that cannot possibly be caused by your actions alone, and would be impossible without the intervention of a being with powers you claim he possesses.

The classic claim is typically 'magically' curing some illness or disability, and the now standard response is a to ask if you can give an example of God or Jesus causing someone to completely re-grow a lost limb. Which would be observable by other people and hard to dispute.

My point was that the reality of supernatural claims can be investigated in the physical 'realm', ie scientifically. And these days, that includes things of the mind as well.

 

 

 

Bob, 

In Acts the 3rd and 4th the religious leaders are faced with a lame man cured - an example of your desired proof.  Do they deny the miracle?  No.  (you would have to be a far removed modern day seminary scholar to do that).  Are they moved by the fact of the miracle?  Not at all.  They were just worried about the spread of this message they disagreed with.  The same problem exists today - not with the mind and the facts, with the heart.  

The need for me to prove Jesus and Scripture to myself doesn't exist.  Neither does the need fo me to prove it all to you or others.  If there is an honest desire to understand I can help with, sure.  Then progress can be made.  Until then I can't restrain wind.  

As for your contention in #5905 that being an atheist will make you smarter and able to investigate things that would be blocked by faith in God and Jesus - I don't buy it.  True freedom isn't represented by being able to do anything and everything.  True freedom is enjoyed within bounds which exclude things that would destroy you.  I don't need to conduct certain experiments to be in the know.  

As far as your fellow campers "having a pretty good understanding of the underlying processes of life" - I think you've peeked under the couch no doubt.  And you probably get the "feeling" that "knowledge is here" when you enter the sanctuary of higher learning in its display of many splendored false impressions.  And you can let flow several "words of the day" that could give the impression you know something - which, since you don't Know Jesus - is simply not true.  You don't know the first thing about Life - because you don't know the Source and Author.  

You say "prove it"?  It'll happen when a wild ass's colt is born a man. 

I'm sorry, Fonzie, 'a lame man cured' is NOT he sort of thing I was referring to. I was talking about a lost limb growing back. Being lame just means you have lost the use of one or both legs, so you cannot walk.

Narratives from the Bible have no value as proof of anything, since there is so much dispute about who wrote them and when, and about the exact meaning and interpretation. There are also many more writings about events of that time than are included in the Bible, since what was selected for inclusion was based on how well it could be read as being consistent with accepted beliefs. IOW anything that seemed to contradict what was currently believed was simply ignored.

Your dismissal of the reality of modern scientific understanding of the processes of life - NOTE: not just my personal understanding -  is simply another demonstration that you are simply wilfully uninformed about the FACTS that much progress that has been made in understanding these things, by people whose work is dedicated to making progress in these areas of Science. This progress has lead to improved ability, in some cases greatly improved, for us to relieve or even cure many nasty diseases and disabilities. Your ignorance of these things is caused by your beliefs preventing you from accepting these FACTS, as I said. I did not say being an atheist 'makes you smarter'.

There is little useful or meaningful 'knowledge' to be gained from the Bible - it is at least a thousand years out of date. They didn't even realize that a human child is not purely originated from the male 'seed', but in fact gets slightly more of its nature from the mother. Which contributed to all the nonsense and obsession about 'virgins' and virgin birth, among of other things.

Fonzie, it is you who have no valid soutce of knowledge.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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The Trolls' responses were so repetitive and formulaic that one could practically predict how It would respond...

Quote:
I'm sorry, Fonzie, 'a lame man cured' is NOT he sort of thing I was referring to. I was talking about a lost limb growing back. Being lame just means you have lost the use of one or both legs, so you cannot walk.
god is not a magician who takes requests from the audience.  If the pharisees are not convinced by the lame walking or a risen body like Lazarus, they will not be convinced by regrown limbs.

Quote:
Narratives from the Bible have no value as proof of anything, since there is so much dispute about who wrote them and when, and about the exact meaning and interpretation. There are also many more writings about events of that time than are included in the Bible, since what was selected for inclusion was based on how well it could be read as being consistent with accepted beliefs. IOW anything that seemed to contradict what was currently believed was simply ignored.
For those who accept the Word of god, there is no dispute.  god guided the men who wrote down his Word, as well as the men who selected which writings to include.

Quote:
Your dismissal of the reality of modern scientific understanding of the processes of life - NOTE: not just my personal understanding -  is simply another demonstration that you are simply wilfully uninformed about the FACTS that much progress that has been made in understanding these things, by people whose work is dedicated to making progress in these areas of Science. This progress has lead to improved ability, in some cases greatly improved, for us to relieve or even cure many nasty diseases and disabilities. Your ignorance of these things is caused by your beliefs preventing you from accepting these FACTS, as I said. I did not say being an atheist 'makes you smarter'.
Those who put their faith in materialistic processes remain willfully uninformed of the Lord, the giver of Life.  Scientific "progress" has yet to improve on jesus, the cure for Sin.  

Quote:
There is little useful or meaningful 'knowledge' to be gained from the Bible - it is at least a thousand years out of date. 
Today's science may make yesterday's science obsolete, but The Eternal truth never goes out of date.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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 'Jesus' is the 'cure'...

 'Jesus' is the 'cure' from acquiring  a sane and rational view of reality, He leads you instead into a total fantasy world.

Of course your 'Eternal Truth' never goes 'out of date' - it would need to get up-to-date first before it could go out-of-date. It is Eternally False. It is a joke.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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 Right Bob. It is 2014, not

 Right Bob. It is 2014, not 329 or even 70ce.  We know babies are not born of virgins and we know it takes two sets of DNA to make a baby. We also know human flesh does not survive rigor mortis. 

The two most important stories central to that character have no bases for evidence in scientific reality. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


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HAPPY NOTES FROM NO-VILL

BobSpence wrote:

 'Jesus' is the 'cure' from acquiring  a sane and rational view of reality, He leads you instead into a total fantasy world.

Of course your 'Eternal Truth' never goes 'out of date' - it would need to get up-to-date first before it could go out-of-date. It is Eternally False. It is a joke.

 

 

Bob,

I appreciate you being honest about your ongoing position.  

We've obviously chosen different doors (D) and we're both confident of what we've chosen - each of which would condemn the other with reason, example or simply raw emotion like your latest salvo.

So you're happy with your door to nowhere...I can tell.  Sounds like you're really digging it.  

I'm really happy too.  The Road I'm on is getting Better and Better - and it's going Somewhere.  It's so great it could be mistaken by some for a fantasy - as if too good to be true.  There's no need to argue this question - we'll both know for sure within 30 - 50 years.  Look me up and show me what you've found.  I'm totally satisfied with the Treasure I've found:  Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit and Scripture.  

 

 

  

 

 

 


Brian37
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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 'Jesus' is the 'cure' from acquiring  a sane and rational view of reality, He leads you instead into a total fantasy world.

Of course your 'Eternal Truth' never goes 'out of date' - it would need to get up-to-date first before it could go out-of-date. It is Eternally False. It is a joke.

 

 

Bob,

I appreciate you being honest about your ongoing position.  

We've obviously chosen different doors (D) and we're both confident of what we've chosen - each of which would condemn the other with reason, example or simply raw emotion like your latest salvo.

So you're happy with your door to nowhere...I can tell.  Sounds like you're really digging it.  

I'm really happy too.  The Road I'm on is getting Better and Better - and it's going Somewhere.  It's so great it could be mistaken by some for a fantasy - as if too good to be true.  There's no need to argue this question - we'll both know for sure within 30 - 50 years.  Look me up and show me what you've found.  I'm totally satisfied with the Treasure I've found:  Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit and Scripture.  

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

None of this is an argument or even evidence for your position. Rejecting god claims is not a matter of happiness it is a matter of evidence. What you just posted is nothing but an appeal to emotion and tradition.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


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A POSITION NEVERTHELESS

Brian37 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 'Jesus' is the 'cure' from acquiring  a sane and rational view of reality, He leads you instead into a total fantasy world.

Of course your 'Eternal Truth' never goes 'out of date' - it would need to get up-to-date first before it could go out-of-date. It is Eternally False. It is a joke.

 

 

Bob,

I appreciate you being honest about your ongoing position.  

We've obviously chosen different doors (D) and we're both confident of what we've chosen - each of which would condemn the other with reason, example or simply raw emotion like your latest salvo.

So you're happy with your door to nowhere...I can tell.  Sounds like you're really digging it.  

I'm really happy too.  The Road I'm on is getting Better and Better - and it's going Somewhere.  It's so great it could be mistaken by some for a fantasy - as if too good to be true.  There's no need to argue this question - we'll both know for sure within 30 - 50 years.  Look me up and show me what you've found.  I'm totally satisfied with the Treasure I've found:  Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit and Scripture.  

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

None of this is an argument or even evidence for your position. Rejecting god claims is not a matter of happiness it is a matter of evidence. What you just posted is nothing but an appeal to emotion and tradition.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brian,

There is no argument with you about my position of faith in God beyond the virgin birth, Perfect Life, Substitutionary Death and Resurrection of Jesus to an Indestructable Life and Inspiration of the God Breathed Word of God - concerning all of which I have no doubt.  You reject it all - I believe it all - it's that simple, no argument. 

But I do have a position which I've laid out (I've seen what you refer to as yours).  And I am happy - not based on emotion (I know you happily reject that fact as well).  And my position is ready to consider all things - including those who reject what I know is true, have given up what I know is true - and hold to the contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge throwing firebrands, arrows and death.  Wisdom is justified by all her children.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 'Jesus' is the 'cure' from acquiring  a sane and rational view of reality, He leads you instead into a total fantasy world.

Of course your 'Eternal Truth' never goes 'out of date' - it would need to get up-to-date first before it could go out-of-date. It is Eternally False. It is a joke.

 

 

Bob,

I appreciate you being honest about your ongoing position.  

We've obviously chosen different doors (D) and we're both confident of what we've chosen - each of which would condemn the other with reason, example or simply raw emotion like your latest salvo.

So you're happy with your door to nowhere...I can tell.  Sounds like you're really digging it.  

I'm really happy too.  The Road I'm on is getting Better and Better - and it's going Somewhere.  It's so great it could be mistaken by some for a fantasy - as if too good to be true.  There's no need to argue this question - we'll both know for sure within 30 - 50 years.  Look me up and show me what you've found.  I'm totally satisfied with the Treasure I've found:  Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit and Scripture.   

Fonzie, your use of the phrase 'door to nowhere' to refer to my position tells me you really still have a basic misunderstanding of where I stand, not having grasped what I have said about this before. 

The atheist position is NOT a 'door' in any sense, it is a wide opening to both the wonder and tragedy of the broadest reality, not requiring the opening of any door to a special magic path to a hoped for 'salvation' involving belief in and worship of totally imaginary beings. While there may well have been a real person who walked the middle east providing the inspiration and/or anchor for the figure of tha 'Son of God', that doesn't make the Biblical figure of the 'Son of God' likely to exist outside your perceived reality as it appears in your mind.

Meanwhile, in my world, I continue to read the words of those across many points of view on religion and science, to try to grasp some better understanding of how people see things, why they do what they do, and believe in so many things that I feel have no basis in fact or real benefit to them or the wider community.

I can't help seeing your comments as telling me you apprehend such a narrow slice of reality that I would be horrified at the idea of restricting my awareness of things to that extent. I'm not necessarily 'happy'  with the harshness of reality, but I would much rather be reasonably confident that I had a grasp of Truth rather than be immersed in something more comforting but imaginary.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Brian37
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Fonzie wrote:Brian37

Fonzie wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 'Jesus' is the 'cure' from acquiring  a sane and rational view of reality, He leads you instead into a total fantasy world.

Of course your 'Eternal Truth' never goes 'out of date' - it would need to get up-to-date first before it could go out-of-date. It is Eternally False. It is a joke.

 

 

Bob,

I appreciate you being honest about your ongoing position.  

We've obviously chosen different doors (D) and we're both confident of what we've chosen - each of which would condemn the other with reason, example or simply raw emotion like your latest salvo.

So you're happy with your door to nowhere...I can tell.  Sounds like you're really digging it.  

I'm really happy too.  The Road I'm on is getting Better and Better - and it's going Somewhere.  It's so great it could be mistaken by some for a fantasy - as if too good to be true.  There's no need to argue this question - we'll both know for sure within 30 - 50 years.  Look me up and show me what you've found.  I'm totally satisfied with the Treasure I've found:  Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit and Scripture.  

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

None of this is an argument or even evidence for your position. Rejecting god claims is not a matter of happiness it is a matter of evidence. What you just posted is nothing but an appeal to emotion and tradition.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brian,

There is no argument with you about my position of faith in God beyond the virgin birth, Perfect Life, Substitutionary Death and Resurrection of Jesus to an Indestructable Life and Inspiration of the God Breathed Word of God - concerning all of which I have no doubt.  You reject it all - I believe it all - it's that simple, no argument. 

But I do have a position which I've laid out (I've seen what you refer to as yours).  And I am happy - not based on emotion (I know you happily reject that fact as well).  And my position is ready to consider all things - including those who reject what I know is true, have given up what I know is true - and hold to the contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge throwing firebrands, arrows and death.  Wisdom is justified by all her children.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Faith" is a cop out excuse to cling to your virus of warm fuzzy claptrap. There is no god Fonzie, there is just you wanting to believe it so bad you will.

It is an unfortunate flaw in our species evolution that causes not just you, but most in our species history to go with their desires and feelings not giving a damn about the reality that it is merely in their head. It is gap filling and a lack of your understanding of how easily our brains can buy fictional sky hero claims. You like what you believe and you have no clue as to how evolution causes you to needlessly gap fill because of your own flawed perceptions. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


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The Trolls' responses were so repetitive and formulaic that one could practically predict how It would respond...

Quote:
"Faith" is a cop out excuse to cling to your virus of warm fuzzy claptrap. There is no god Fonzie, there is just you wanting to believe it so bad you will.
Faith (no need for quotes) is a gift from god, a gift you decline to cling to your materialistic world.  Saying "there is no god" is like a blind man saying "there is no light".

Quote:
It is an unfortunate flaw in our species evolution that causes not just you, but most in our species history to go with their desires and feelings not giving a damn about the reality that it is merely in their head. It is gap filling and a lack of your understanding of how easily our brains can buy fictional sky hero claims. You like what you believe and you have no clue as to how evolution causes you to needlessly gap fill because of your own flawed perceptions.
The unfortunate flaw in our species occurred when man disobeyed god by eating the forbidden fruit.  You would rather believe in evolution and blame our flaws on the chimpanzees.  And yes, I like what I believe, because it is the Eternal Truth. You are more than welcome to like the Nothing you as an atheist believe in.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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BobSpence
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 Using 'Faith' to justify a

 Using 'Faith' to justify a choice or belief is an an admission you have no actual basis for it beyond what amounts to wishful thinking, it is the weakest possible reason for a belief. Thank you for conceding defeat in the 'debate'.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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WHAT FAITH YOU?

BobSpence wrote:

 Using 'Faith' to justify a choice or belief is an an admission you have no actual basis for it beyond what amounts to wishful thinking, it is the weakest possible reason for a belief. Thank you for conceding defeat in the 'debate'.

 

Bob,

What do you "know" or "justify" that doesn't involve faith?  


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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 Using 'Faith' to justify a choice or belief is an an admission you have no actual basis for it beyond what amounts to wishful thinking, it is the weakest possible reason for a belief. Thank you for conceding defeat in the 'debate'.

 

Bob,

What do you "know" or "justify" that doesn't involve faith?  

Pretty much everything.

If it requires faith, it is certainly not 'knowledge', and can't be used to really justify anything.

Of course, if I really have to make a decision in the absence of solid knowledge of some important relevant information, it would have to be based on what incomplete information I do have - beyond that, it can only be guesswork, or assumptions based on experience of similar situations I have encountered in the past.

All the existing knowledge that I trust to a sufficient degree to count as 'knowledge' involves some level of uncertainty. The strict technical way to allow for this involves using 'Bayes Theorem', which allows one to calculate the probability that some statement is true given the probablity that another statement that it depends upon is true. It is a mathematical way to account for all the uncertainties in the statements that a particular knowledge claim is based on. In practice, I wouldn't be doing this calculation all the time, but at a more informal, intuitive level, I just try to take account of my current confidence in each source.

'Faith' just doesn't come into it - it provides nothing, it is empty. If you are happy to apply the word to having a reasonable but finite level of trust in some particular person or written documentation, then I guess that's up to you.

The closest you might be able to say I am using 'faith' is if I base it on information provided by some other person, in which case it would require a degree of trust that their information is sound. 'Trust' is a better term to apply then. "Faith" is a bit too open-ended for me - 'trust' implies some reason for why I may be prepared to accept their assurances, probably based on previous experience with them.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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The Trolls' responses were so repetitive and formulaic that one could practically predict how It would respond...

Quote:
Pretty much everything.

If it requires faith, it is certainly not 'knowledge', and can't be used to really justify anything.

god does not have to justify Himself to anyone, but those who do not harden their hearts will have knowledge of Him.

Quote:
Of course, if I really have to make a decision in the absence of solid knowledge of some important relevant information, it would have to be based on what incomplete information I do have - beyond that, it can only be guesswork, or assumptions based on experience of similar situations I have encountered in the past.
I have experienced the Living christ, no incomplete information or guesswork involved.

Quote:
All the existing knowledge that I trust to a sufficient degree to count as 'knowledge' involves some level of uncertainty. The strict technical way to allow for this involves using 'Bayes Theorem', which allows one to calculate the probability that some statement is true given the probablity that another statement that it depends upon is true.
The new testament depends on the old testament, and the probabiilty that jesus fulfilled the prophecies is 100% certain (the Disciple's Theorem). 

Quote:
'Faith' just doesn't come into it - it provides nothing, it is empty. If you are happy to apply the word to having a reasonable but finite level of trust in some particular person or written documentation, then I guess that's up to you.
I am indeed happy with the promise of Eternal Life through jesus.  If you are happy with your faith in the probability of Nothing that's up to you.

Quote:
The closest you might be able to say I am using 'faith' is if I base it on information provided by some other person, in which case it would require a degree of trust that their information is sound. 'Trust' is a better term to apply then. "Faith" is a bit too open-ended for me - 'trust' implies some reason for why I may be prepared to accept their assurances, probably based on previous experience with them.
Trust in jesus works for me, based on my previous, present and future experience.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 Using 'Faith' to justify a choice or belief is an an admission you have no actual basis for it beyond what amounts to wishful thinking, it is the weakest possible reason for a belief. Thank you for conceding defeat in the 'debate'.

 

Bob,

What do you "know" or "justify" that doesn't involve faith?  

Gravity. You don't have to have "faith" in gravity, we know it exists and right now as you read this you can test gravity. Take a coin or pen and drop it, it will fall to the ground. 

Knowledge isn't a matter of making claims like religion or "faith". Knoweldge is what comes from observation and is why we have doctors, why we have been to the moon, and why you are typing on this computer right now. None of those things came about because of "faith". Those things came about because someone thought to simply not accept they did not know and sought to observe and test and collect data.

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


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The Trolls' responses were so repetitive and formulaic that one could practically predict how It would respond...

Quote:
Gravity. You don't have to have "faith" in gravity, we know it exists and right now as you read this you can test gravity. Take a coin or pen and drop it, it will fall to the ground.
I know god exists as sure as I read his scripture, which says "thou shall not put the lord god to test".  When you're falling into the pits of hell, will you blame it on gravity, or your own sin?

Quote:
Knowledge isn't a matter of making claims like religion or "faith". Knoweldge is what comes from observation and is why we have doctors, why we have been to the moon, and why you are typing on this computer right now. None of those things came about because of "faith". Those things came about because someone thought to simply not accept they did not know and sought to observe and test and collect data.
I accept that god knows more than I do, and put my faith in his divine plan.  You can collect your data on judgement day, but by then it may be too late.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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GRAVITY - RELIABLE, DULL, BUT COMPLETELY UNDERSTOOD?

Brian37 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 Using 'Faith' to justify a choice or belief is an an admission you have no actual basis for it beyond what amounts to wishful thinking, it is the weakest possible reason for a belief. Thank you for conceding defeat in the 'debate'.

 

Bob,

What do you "know" or "justify" that doesn't involve faith?  

Gravity. You don't have to have "faith" in gravity, we know it exists and right now as you read this you can test gravity. Take a coin or pen and drop it, it will fall to the ground. 

Knowledge isn't a matter of making claims like religion or "faith". Knoweldge is what comes from observation and is why we have doctors, why we have been to the moon, and why you are typing on this computer right now. None of those things came about because of "faith". Those things came about because someone thought to simply not accept they did not know and sought to observe and test and collect data.

 

 

 

 

 

Brian,

You mean they couldn't accept not knowing but had faith (or hope, another non-fact) they could discover something as yet undiscovered so they ventured into the unknown?

Yes, I observe gravity too (that might be a stretch of trust for you that a guy who believes in God shares your gravity).  I don't think about it or talk about it much unless I'm carrying a bucket of drywall mud - "why does gravity want this so bad?"

Gravity just doesn't seem to be on the cutting edge of conversation or everyday life for me or anybody else these days.  Maybr I'm too easily bored but your fact of gravity just doesn't hold my interest (I might have to listen to some Abba or Bob Dylan for balance).  

Do you think it's a phenomonen completely understood or just accepted and used; I mean, do you have faith your atheist scientists totally understand it?    

 

 

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
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 All you can 'know' about

 All you can 'know' about God is that many people believe he exists, and have written about their beliefs. People have also written about many other Gods that they believe in. 

They also acknowledge that you cannot test God. There is no way to prove that any written words are really direct from God, rather than just what a believer had a strong feeling about having come from God.

Regardless, the idea of Hell and eternel punishment is proof that God, if He exists, is a deeply unjust and vengeful being, certainly not deserving of praise or worship.

God is a creation of the mind of Man, and shows all the imperfections that our limited minds will inevitably lead to. We have created God in our own image.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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The Trolls' responses were so repetitive and formulaic that one could practically predict how It would respond...

Quote:
All you can 'know' about God is that many people believe he exists, and have written about their beliefs. People have also written about many other Gods that they believe in.
People have written about many gods, but only One True god has written us into creation.   

Quote:
They also acknowledge that you cannot test God. There is no way to prove that any written words are really direct from God, rather than just what a believer had a strong feeling about having come from God.
god is beyond scientific testing, and has nothing to prove to those who choose not to believe. 

Quote:
Regardless, the idea of Hell and eternel punishment is proof that God, if He exists, is a deeply unjust and vengeful being, certainly not deserving of praise or worship.
We are not deserving of being saved from god's vengeance, yet god gave his only son to save us.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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SPEAKING IMPERFECTION YOU DID DID YOU

BobSpence wrote:

 All you can 'know' about God is that many people believe he exists, and have written about their beliefs. People have also written about many other Gods that they believe in. 

They also acknowledge that you cannot test God. There is no way to prove that any written words are really direct from God, rather than just what a believer had a strong feeling about having come from God.

Regardless, the idea of Hell and eternel punishment is proof that God, if He exists, is a deeply unjust and vengeful being, certainly not deserving of praise or worship.

God is a creation of the mind of Man, and shows all the imperfections that our limited minds will inevitably lead to. We have created God in our own image.

 

 

 

Bob,

Whatever your god is + whatever you know about it  (and I do believe you have a god Bob, albeit a lousy one - and like you say it can't be proved by you or anybody yes or no it's your figment at work) - nevertheless your god certainly bears out your own principle of showing the imperfection your limited creative effort has produced.  Whatever your expertise is - know that it's not concerning gods or for sure my GOD or your assessment of said GOD left or right up or down.

If it's just a matter of choosing one's god (or GOD).  You choose your god and I'll choose mine.  You base your choice on whatever is important to you - and it's no different with me.  And I have and I also have no doubts about my GOD or anything about HIM.  I'm getting to know Him better and better but it'll take an eternity however I won't be bored...but,     

Whatever your god is I'm ALREADY bored with it.  You haven't shown me anything exciting interesting or productive about your god.  Does he have music, rhythm, or could I ask anything more?  

Bob you seem like a guy I could hunt alligators at night with in a boat with a gun and a light or rabbits with a boomerang in the outback or catch and French fry termites with over an open fire and I'd be right behind, learning and probably confident using Bayes Theorem on you - but when it comes to this trip of you talking about God to me it's outer space nowhere and dullsville all together - mostly dullsville.  I would say whatever your god is you should kick butt interview and start taking names.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 All you can 'know' about God is that many people believe he exists, and have written about their beliefs. People have also written about many other Gods that they believe in. 

They also acknowledge that you cannot test God. There is no way to prove that any written words are really direct from God, rather than just what a believer had a strong feeling about having come from God.

Regardless, the idea of Hell and eternel punishment is proof that God, if He exists, is a deeply unjust and vengeful being, certainly not deserving of praise or worship.

God is a creation of the mind of Man, and shows all the imperfections that our limited minds will inevitably lead to. We have created God in our own image.

 

 

 

Bob,

Whatever your god is + whatever you know about it  (and I do believe you have a god Bob, albeit a lousy one - and like you say it can't be proved by you or anybody yes or no it's your figment at work) - nevertheless your god certainly bears out your own principle of showing the imperfection your limited creative effort has produced.  Whatever your expertise is - know that it's not concerning gods or for sure my GOD or your assessment of said GOD left or right up or down.

If it's just a matter of choosing one's god (or GOD).  You choose your god and I'll choose mine.  You base your choice on whatever is important to you - and it's no different with me.  And I have and I also have no doubts about my GOD or anything about HIM.  I'm getting to know Him better and better but it'll take an eternity however I won't be bored...but,     

Whatever your god is I'm ALREADY bored with it.  You haven't shown me anything exciting interesting or productive about your god.  Does he have music, rhythm, or could I ask anything more?  

Bob you seem like a guy I could hunt alligators at night with in a boat with a gun and a light or rabbits with a boomerang in the outback or catch and French fry termites with over an open fire and I'd be right behind, learning and probably confident using Bayes Theorem on you - but when it comes to this trip of you talking about God to me it's outer space nowhere and dullsville all together - mostly dullsville.  I would say whatever your god is you should kick butt interview and start taking names.

 

Of course you are bored with the strange idea you persist with, that I have a 'god'. How am I supposed to show you anything exciting, interesting, or productive about something thet doesn't exist even as an idea, at least in my mind.

The interesting and productive ideas that I like to studiy come from first purging any residual trace of the ancient mind-rotting poison that is contained in the Bible and openin my mind to the vast possibilities of Truth and Reality. But since you are totally stuck in the God Delusion, unable to admit even the possibility that the Bible may not be 100% true, that path is closed to you. So I can never show you the wonder of my totally god-free world. Sorry about that.

I do understand that just kicking God out of your life is not going to be enough to open your mind to the wonder of Scientific Truth - you need a minimum amount of fairly advanced education and a mind able and willing to grasp it. It would seem that some form of religious belief is the most common fallback position for those not able to follow the more difficult path to Truth. which seems to be most people, at least in the USA. At least it makes you happy...

By the way, I have never, and never would, go hunting alligators or rabbits, even in some metaphorical sense, or whatever sense you had in mind.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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The Trolls' responses were so repetitive and formulaic that one could practically predict how It would respond...

Quote:
Of course you are bored with the strange idea you persist with, that I have a 'god'. How am I supposed to show you anything exciting, interesting, or productive about something thet doesn't exist even as an idea, at least in my mind.
Yes, I am bored with your idea of Nothing, instead of god, Who offers not only Something, but Everything.

Quote:
The interesting and productive ideas that I like to studiy come from first purging any residual trace of the ancient mind-rotting poison that is contained in the Bible and openin my mind to the vast possibilities of Truth and Reality. But since you are totally stuck in the God Delusion, unable to admit even the possibility that the Bible may not be 100% true, that path is closed to you. So I can never show you the wonder of my totally god-free world. Sorry about that.
By calling the bible 'mind-rotting poison', you are trying to poison the Well of Living Water.  The bible is god's Word, so cannot be anyting less than 100% True.  I see nothing wonderful with your atheist delusion of monkeys evolving into men through the big bang.  Sorry. 

Quote:
I do understand that just kicking God out of your life is not going to be enough to open your mind to the wonder of Scientific Truth - you need a minimum amount of fairly advanced education and a mind able and willing to grasp it. It would seem that some form of religious belief is the most common fallback position for those not able to follow the more difficult path to Truth. which seems to be most people, at least in the USA. At least it makes you happy...

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."  (Romans 1:22-23) 

There are no theists on operating tables.

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THE GREEN DOOR JIM LOWE 1956

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 All you can 'know' about God is that many people believe he exists, and have written about their beliefs. People have also written about many other Gods that they believe in. 

They also acknowledge that you cannot test God. There is no way to prove that any written words are really direct from God, rather than just what a believer had a strong feeling about having come from God.

Regardless, the idea of Hell and eternel punishment is proof that God, if He exists, is a deeply unjust and vengeful being, certainly not deserving of praise or worship.

God is a creation of the mind of Man, and shows all the imperfections that our limited minds will inevitably lead to. We have created God in our own image.

 

 

 

Bob,

Whatever your god is + whatever you know about it  (and I do believe you have a god Bob, albeit a lousy one - and like you say it can't be proved by you or anybody yes or no it's your figment at work) - nevertheless your god certainly bears out your own principle of showing the imperfection your limited creative effort has produced.  Whatever your expertise is - know that it's not concerning gods or for sure my GOD or your assessment of said GOD left or right up or down.

If it's just a matter of choosing one's god (or GOD).  You choose your god and I'll choose mine.  You base your choice on whatever is important to you - and it's no different with me.  And I have and I also have no doubts about my GOD or anything about HIM.  I'm getting to know Him better and better but it'll take an eternity however I won't be bored...but,     

Whatever your god is I'm ALREADY bored with it.  You haven't shown me anything exciting interesting or productive about your god.  Does he have music, rhythm, or could I ask anything more?  

Bob you seem like a guy I could hunt alligators at night with in a boat with a gun and a light or rabbits with a boomerang in the outback or catch and French fry termites with over an open fire and I'd be right behind, learning and probably confident using Bayes Theorem on you - but when it comes to this trip of you talking about God to me it's outer space nowhere and dullsville all together - mostly dullsville.  I would say whatever your god is you should kick butt interview and start taking names.

 

Of course you are bored with the strange idea you persist with, that I have a 'god'. How am I supposed to show you anything exciting, interesting, or productive about something thet doesn't exist even as an idea, at least in my mind.

The interesting and productive ideas that I like to studiy come from first purging any residual trace of the ancient mind-rotting poison that is contained in the Bible and openin my mind to the vast possibilities of Truth and Reality. But since you are totally stuck in the God Delusion, unable to admit even the possibility that the Bible may not be 100% true, that path is closed to you. So I can never show you the wonder of my totally god-free world. Sorry about that.

I do understand that just kicking God out of your life is not going to be enough to open your mind to the wonder of Scientific Truth - you need a minimum amount of fairly advanced education and a mind able and willing to grasp it. It would seem that some form of religious belief is the most common fallback position for those not able to follow the more difficult path to Truth. which seems to be most people, at least in the USA. At least it makes you happy...

By the way, I have never, and never would, go hunting alligators or rabbits, even in some metaphorical sense, or whatever sense you had in mind.

 

 

Bob,

Maybe I have false impressions of Australians like you with Christianity, Christ, God, the Holy Spirit, the New Birth, walking by faith, life in The Spirit rather than the flesh, the Word of GOD being God Breathed, the Presence of God, the parables of Jesus ramping into spiritual thinking, the reality of miracles, the truth of Old Testament stories like Jonah and the big fish, Noah and the ark, etc., etc.   I'm not hunting alligators or rabbits in your false metephorical impression sense in my faith in God  either or whatever sense you have in mind in your spiritual strawman creation and rejection of GOD and the Eternal Gift of God in Christ --- RAISED TO AN INDESTRUCTABLE LIFE NEVER TO DIE AGAIN.

So, if I was to enter the door to nowhere, the atheist "green door" of unbelief, the hobby of not collecting stamps - you could show me the mystery of what's behind the green door....?  The deep things of Satan?  That's fried balogna and you can have it!  You're starting my day with a laugh.

Our Champion, Christ has handled that "greeen door" like Samson handled the gates of Gaza, posts bar and all carrying them to the top of the hill that is before Hebron.  I'm not in the least concerned or curious about what's behind your green door of unbelief.  

You know the serpent tempted Eve with the same idea - that to disobey God would make her "wiser" and all that happy horse manure.  You haven't brought out anything sublime from behind your door of unbelief - very simply because you don't have anything (but you're happy with it nonetheless).  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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 We don't have any false

 We don't have any false impressions of Christianity. It is made up like every other human concocted religion. Not our bagage that you wish that bronze aged book of myth were true.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


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The Trolls' responses were so repetitive and formulaic that one could practically predict how It would respond...

Quote:
We don't have any false impressions of Christianity. It is made up like every other human concocted religion.
Or have atheists concocted evolution as an excuse not to accept god's gift?

 

Quote:
Not our bagage that you wish that bronze aged book of myth were true.
I have no baggage, because like Simon and Andrew, I left my baggage behind to follow christ.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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BobSpence
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 Christians concocted the

 Christians concocted the story of Adam and Eve and the Serpent, leading to Original Sin and the Fall, as a desperate attempt to explain why God punished the whole of humanity for the 'sin' of their ancestors, which would have been a deeply unjust action on His part, if it had actually happened. Since it is all part of one of the core fantasies that is recounted in the Bible, it just demonstrates yet again how little connection the Bible stories and characters have with Reality and Truth. Like the Flood story, another grossly unjust action by this horrible 'God' character, if it had really happened, which there is no reason to believe it would have, or even could have.

I 'm sure the writers of this crap were not consciously lying, they would have really believed it had to be true, to prop up the whole narrative.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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The Trolls' responses were so repetitive and formulaic that one could practically predict how It would respond...

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Christians concocted the story of Adam and Eve and the Serpent, leading to Original Sin and the Fall, as a desperate attempt to explain why God punished the whole of humanity for the 'sin' of their ancestors, which would have been a deeply unjust action on His part, if it had actually happened.
As a xian, I can assure you I feel no desperation, but the happiness that comes only from christ, the second Adam.  The only desperation I see is atheists using evolution to claim they inherited their Fallen Nature from gorillas, rather than owning up to their own Original Sin.  

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Like the Flood story, another grossly unjust action by this horrible 'God' character, if it had really happened, which there is no reason to believe it would have, or even could have.
The men of the world were wicked, except for Noah and his sons.  The only just thing to do is to punish wickedness.

 

There are no theists on operating tables.

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BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 

Of course you are bored with the strange idea you persist with, that I have a 'god'. How am I supposed to show you anything exciting, interesting, or productive about something thet doesn't exist even as an idea, at least in my mind.

The interesting and productive ideas that I like to studiy come from first purging any residual trace of the ancient mind-rotting poison that is contained in the Bible and openin my mind to the vast possibilities of Truth and Reality. But since you are totally stuck in the God Delusion, unable to admit even the possibility that the Bible may not be 100% true, that path is closed to you. So I can never show you the wonder of my totally god-free world. Sorry about that.

I do understand that just kicking God out of your life is not going to be enough to open your mind to the wonder of Scientific Truth - you need a minimum amount of fairly advanced education and a mind able and willing to grasp it. It would seem that some form of religious belief is the most common fallback position for those not able to follow the more difficult path to Truth. which seems to be most people, at least in the USA. At least it makes you happy...

By the way, I have never, and never would, go hunting alligators or rabbits, even in some metaphorical sense, or whatever sense you had in mind.

  

Bob,

Maybe I have false impressions of Australians like you with Christianity, Christ, God, the Holy Spirit, the New Birth, walking by faith, life in The Spirit rather than the flesh, the Word of GOD being God Breathed, the Presence of God, the parables of Jesus ramping into spiritual thinking, the reality of miracles, the truth of Old Testament stories like Jonah and the big fish, Noah and the ark, etc., etc.   I'm not hunting alligators or rabbits in your false metephorical impression sense in my faith in God  either or whatever sense you have in mind in your spiritual strawman creation and rejection of GOD and the Eternal Gift of God in Christ --- RAISED TO AN INDESTRUCTABLE LIFE NEVER TO DIE AGAIN.

So, if I was to enter the door to nowhere, the atheist "green door" of unbelief, the hobby of not collecting stamps - you could show me the mystery of what's behind the green door....?  The deep things of Satan?  That's fried balogna and you can have it!  You're starting my day with a laugh.

Our Champion, Christ has handled that "greeen door" like Samson handled the gates of Gaza, posts bar and all carrying them to the top of the hill that is before Hebron.  I'm not in the least concerned or curious about what's behind your green door of unbelief.  

You know the serpent tempted Eve with the same idea - that to disobey God would make her "wiser" and all that happy horse manure.  You haven't brought out anything sublime from behind your door of unbelief - very simply because you don't have anything (but you're happy with it nonetheless).  

 

So you believe in the existence of 'Satan' too? That's an even more absurd idea than 'God'.

A God who would create a Satan is even nastier than one who would cause a global flood to kill all the animals and children and babies. It is just one of the many nasty absurdities which made it impossible for me, even as a child, to take the Christian story seriously.

I've already told you what draws me to my position - in short, the wonders of the Universe.

Unbelief doesn't necessarily take you there, but Belief can get in the way at times.

So you don't find anything appealing about contemplating the wonders of the Universe? About the trillions of other galaxies and strange worlds 'out there', some of which almost certainly harbour other life-forms, other civilizations and cultures? Just because at the time the Bible was written no-one had even an inkling of these facts?

I would not surrender this knowledge in exchange for an infinite lifetime of boredom and subjugation to the Evil Liar that is your God.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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The Trolls' responses were so repetitive and formulaic that one could practically predict how It would respond...

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So you believe in the existence of 'Satan' too? That's an even more absurd idea than 'God'.
If you've already decided god is absurd, no wonder you find it absurd to think you're being led astray from god by satan.

Quote:
A God who would create a Satan is even nastier than one who would cause a global flood to kill all the animals and children and babies. It is just one of the many nasty absurdities which made it impossible for me as a child to take the Christian story seriously.
god's ways are not our ways.  We cannot hope to understand his divine plan with our mortal minds.

Quote:
I've already told you what draws me to my position - in short, the wonders of the Universe.

Unbelief doesn't necessarily take you there, but Belief can get in the way at times.

With god, I have not only the wonders of the universe, but the Heaven beyond the universe.  Belief in god can take you to heaven, and unbelief can get in the way.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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BobSpence
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 "God" and "Heaven" are

 "God" and "Heaven" are merely unproven, indeed unprovable speculations, whereas the wonders of Science are based on centuries of careful observation and testing.

The Bible has no information on the realities of the Universe, in fact Genesis is massively inconsistent with what Science has shown us, so the Bible is a blockage on the path to Truth, not deserving to be taken seriously.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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The Trolls' responses were so repetitive and formulaic that one could practically predict how It would respond...

Quote:
"God" and "Heaven" are merely unproven, indeed unprovable speculations, whereas the wonders of Science are based on centuries of careful observation and testing.
god (no quotes) has proven Itself to me.  Perhaps your atheistic "science" has proven to you the wonders of Nothing, but god is carefully observing our actions, and testing us for Heaven.

Quote:
The Bible has no information on the realities of the Universe, in fact Genesis is massively inconsistent with what Science has shown us, so the Bible is a blockage on the path to Truth, not deserving to be taken seriously.
As genesis says, god was there "in the beginning".  The scientists were not there in the beginning, so I know whose information I will take more seriously.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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BobSpence
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The study of what we see

The study of what we see (with the help of our many increasingly powerful telescopes and other instruments) that in beginning, at least as as far back as we can currently see, there was no Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, etc.

While it is true that the scientists weren't there at the beginning, they can see the light that came from what was there at the time, so in a very real sense, we can see what happened 'in the beginning'.

The writers of the Bible weren't there either, and so simply adapted older creation stories to fit into their particular religious beliefs.

So scientific ideas are based on what we can observe and measure that originated in those times, while religion just reads what previous generations (who also weren't there 'in the beginning') wrote down or passed on by word of mouth.

So how do you know what writings really are the 'Word of God' and which ones are merely what the writers thought came from God??

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Fonzie
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Baaa

BobSpence wrote:

The study of what we see (with the help of our many increasingly powerful telescopes and other instruments) that in beginning, at least as as far back as we can currently see, there was no Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, etc.

While it is true that the scientists weren't there at the beginning, they can see the light that came from what was there at the time, so in a very real sense, we can see what happened 'in the beginning'.

The writers of the Bible weren't there either, and so simply adapted older creation stories to fit into their particular religious beliefs.

So scientific ideas are based on what we can observe and measure that originated in those times, while religion just reads what previous generations (who also weren't there 'in the beginning') wrote down or passed on by word of mouth.

So how do you know what writings really are the 'Word of God' and which ones are merely what the writers thought came from God??

 

 

 

 

Bob,

I took a video tour yesterday of south west Australia.  Very scenic and looks nice.  A nice piece of creation there.  I wouldn't want to go there though - too far.  I believe the video.

I'm glad you and your scientists see the light at least (and we'll give all the glory for that to your research, reason and telescopes).

As far as "knowing" - the sheep know their Master's Voice.  You know your bilion year old  light.  It speaks volumes to you, brings meaning and depth into your life.

I know my Master's Voice.  It's the whole Bible - Genesis to Revelation