It works for me!

Fonzie
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It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


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Fonzie wrote:Sorry, it is

Fonzie wrote:

Bob Spence wrote:

Sorry, it is still you who have it wrong again: was not saying or assuming you were in an environment of "truly walking by faith in Christ in the Light of the Spirit", just that (I assumed) you were in an environment  that was much more strongly oriented toward religious observance of some kind than I was. Are you saying that the culture you were surrounded by was athesistic/skeptical? If so, I do apologise.

While it is true that some areas of Science do not obviously conflict with all religious teachings, there is certainly strong conflict with some religious views, such as Creationism and belief in the Biblical Flood. You are already conceding that your beliefs conflict with the cuurent theories about the origin of the Universe, which do have a much firmer grounding than you want to imply, so please stop denying that your beliefs conflict with Science. I thought you were better informed than fools like Ken Ham. We don't need to observe some event in the here-and-now to have justified confidence that we have useful knowledge about it. If you don't accept that, you clearly do NOT understand or accept Science. You further demonstrate your wilful refusal to accept the reality that many people leave faith and belief behind after considering their position much more seriously and carefully than before.

I may have to concede that your reply here suggests I was a bit optimistic in assuming I really understood where you are coming from.

You still clearly don't understand my position - I do not have a "research project" in any sense; you are still stuck on this erroneous assumption. You certainly have no conception of what my life "is all about". For example, I certainly don't just look for people that "say what I want to hear"; I believe that ones ideas need to be continually tested against different ideas held by other people.

Bob,

You seem to state that if I don't have faith (your faith) I can't understand or accept  science (your science).  

...which is not true about science because science isn't God; but the principle DOES HOLD with understanding and accepting Jesus, God, Truth, the Gospel and the Bible.  You can understand that since you don't believe God or believe in God.  He therefore hasn't  Lit it up for you.   Scientifically speaking - you have an absence of LIGHT on the whole subject.  

In this case however you are not dealing with a hammered out science book but THE LIVING GOD Who Knows everything about you and deals with you respectfully, justly and honestly.  You are snared with the cords of your sin.  He offers the solution to the real problem.  And it's not rocket science Bob.  Shut off the magnetic shield and listen.     

It is the Glory of God to conceal things - but the glory of kings is to search things out.    

Since I do not base my approach on anything that can reasonably be compared with religious faith, you still don't understand where I am coming from. To truly appreciate Science, you need the opposite of 'Faith', namely a level of distrust in everything we currently accept about the Universe as described by Science, so that if someone finds good evidence that it may in fact be wrong, we are prepared to accept what can be shown to be a much better interpretation. Or are saying I have faith in the idea of not having Faith? The continuing advances in our understanding, which have lead to so many advances in Communications (including what allows us to carry on this discussion from opposite sides of tha world), in exploring space, in the ability to control and protect ourselves and our children from many of the diseases which, your God, if he exists, inflicted on us, showing us how little he respects us AND our innocent children.

Calling my position a "faith" is like calling Atheism a 'religion', when it is, in essence, a lack of a religion. Or to quote a very common analogy, it is like calling "not collecting stamps a 'hobby'. Your inability to grasp this shows you are the one who is in darkness, or whose vision is blocked by your faith, or perhaps blinded by the light you refer to. It is the SHAME of your God to torture the children, especially the children of the poor, with so many germs, viruses, and parasites. I could never 'accept' or praise such a cruel, deceitful, vengeful being if it could be shown to exist.

You didn't answer my question about your early environment: was it, or was it not, at least based on a nominally Christian belief, but obviously not one that 'worked for you'?

Since you appear to reject the Science of the Origin of the Universe (the Big Bang Theory), what do you believe about the age of the Universe? And do you 'accept' the Biblical Flood story?

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


BobSpence
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 Science is about TRUTH, or

 Science is about TRUTH, or as close as we can get to it at any given time about any given subject.

WE are very complex self-perpetuating structures, capable of reproducing versions of ourselves.

The structures that define us are composed of complex patterns of atoms bonded together into complex molecules, which make up our bodies and form our organs of thought, ie, our brains and associated nervous systems. The particular atoms that we are composed of can be replaced one or more times through our lifetimes, so it is the patterns that define us, not any particular atoms. So Science does NOT consider us 'nothing but' atoms. For patterns to be recorded and passed on, they must employ particles of matter, such as atoms, since energy by itself has no persistent structure. So we need atoms to give us substance and life, to allow the patterns that are us to be expressed.

We have long grown beyond the simplistic notions of God/Creator beings and ideas of divine punishment and the wishful-thinking myth of 'eternal life'.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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It was still quite easy...

Quote:
Since I do not base my approach on anything that can reasonably be compared with religious faith, you still don't understand where I am coming from. To truly appreciate Science, you need the opposite of 'Faith', namely a level of distrust in everything we currently accept about the Universe as described by Science, so that if someone finds good evidence that it may in fact be wrong, we are prepared to accept what can be shown to be a much better interpretation.
If your approach does not begin with the holy spirit, it is destined for failure, as you are straying from the Light. To get to Omega, you have to start with Alpha.

Quote:
Or are saying I have faith in the idea of not having Faith? The continuing advances in our understanding, which have lead to so many advances in Communications (including what allows us to carry on this discussion from opposite sides of tha world), in exploring space, in the ability to control and protect ourselves and our children from many of the diseases which, your God, if he exists, inflicted on us, showing us how little he respects us AND our innocent children.
Science has yet to improve on the god's communication system, aka Revelation.  (The fool says in his heart there is no god, and uses Science to block the connection.)  Death and disease come from sin, and god respects us too much to take away our free will to choose the sinful path.

Quote:
Calling my position a "faith" is like calling Atheism a 'religion', when it is, in essence, a lack of a religion. Or to quote a very common analogy, it is like calling "not collecting stamps a 'hobby'.
Atheism is indeed the most ridiculous religion, since it worships Nothing. Hands clasped in prayer have no need for a hobby.

Quote:
The particular atoms that we are composed of can be replaced one or more times through our lifetimes, so it is the patterns that define us, not any particular atoms. So Science does NOT consider us 'nothing but' atoms. For patterns to be recorded and passed on, they must be employ particles of matter, such as atoms, since energy by itself has no persistent structure. So we need atoms to give us substance and life, to allow the patterns that are us to be expressed.
Atoms may come and go, but our souls are eternal.  It is your choice where your soul will spend eternity, after your atoms have gone away. 

There are no theists on operating tables.

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Fonzie
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THE RELIGIOUS HOBBY OF NOT BELIEVING

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Bob Spence wrote:

Sorry, it is still you who have it wrong again: was not saying or assuming you were in an environment of "truly walking by faith in Christ in the Light of the Spirit", just that (I assumed) you were in an environment  that was much more strongly oriented toward religious observance of some kind than I was. Are you saying that the culture you were surrounded by was athesistic/skeptical? If so, I do apologise.

While it is true that some areas of Science do not obviously conflict with all religious teachings, there is certainly strong conflict with some religious views, such as Creationism and belief in the Biblical Flood. You are already conceding that your beliefs conflict with the cuurent theories about the origin of the Universe, which do have a much firmer grounding than you want to imply, so please stop denying that your beliefs conflict with Science. I thought you were better informed than fools like Ken Ham. We don't need to observe some event in the here-and-now to have justified confidence that we have useful knowledge about it. If you don't accept that, you clearly do NOT understand or accept Science. You further demonstrate your wilful refusal to accept the reality that many people leave faith and belief behind after considering their position much more seriously and carefully than before.

I may have to concede that your reply here suggests I was a bit optimistic in assuming I really understood where you are coming from.

You still clearly don't understand my position - I do not have a "research project" in any sense; you are still stuck on this erroneous assumption. You certainly have no conception of what my life "is all about". For example, I certainly don't just look for people that "say what I want to hear"; I believe that ones ideas need to be continually tested against different ideas held by other people.

Bob,

You seem to state that if I don't have faith (your faith) I can't understand or accept  science (your science).  

...which is not true about science because science isn't God; but the principle DOES HOLD with understanding and accepting Jesus, God, Truth, the Gospel and the Bible.  You can understand that since you don't believe God or believe in God.  He therefore hasn't  Lit it up for you.   Scientifically speaking - you have an absence of LIGHT on the whole subject.  

In this case however you are not dealing with a hammered out science book but THE LIVING GOD Who Knows everything about you and deals with you respectfully, justly and honestly.  You are snared with the cords of your sin.  He offers the solution to the real problem.  And it's not rocket science Bob.  Shut off the magnetic shield and listen.     

It is the Glory of God to conceal things - but the glory of kings is to search things out.    

Since I do not base my approach on anything that can reasonably be compared with religious faith, you still don't understand where I am coming from. To truly appreciate Science, you need the opposite of 'Faith', namely a level of distrust in everything we currently accept about the Universe as described by Science, so that if someone finds good evidence that it may in fact be wrong, we are prepared to accept what can be shown to be a much better interpretation. Or are saying I have faith in the idea of not having Faith? The continuing advances in our understanding, which have lead to so many advances in Communications (including what allows us to carry on this discussion from opposite sides of tha world), in exploring space, in the ability to control and protect ourselves and our children from many of the diseases which, your God, if he exists, inflicted on us, showing us how little he respects us AND our innocent children.

Calling my position a "faith" is like calling Atheism a 'religion', when it is, in essence, a lack of a religion. Or to quote a very common analogy, it is like calling "not collecting stamps a 'hobby'. Your inability to grasp this shows you are the one who is in darkness, or whose vision is blocked by your faith, or perhaps blinded by the light you refer to. It is the SHAME of your God to torture the children, especially the children of the poor, with so many germs, viruses, and parasites. I could never 'accept' or praise such a cruel, deceitful, vengeful being if it could be shown to exist.

You didn't answer my question about your early environment: was it, or was it not, at least based on a nominally Christian belief, but obviously not one that 'worked for you'?

Since you appear to reject the Science of the Origin of the Universe (the Big Bang Theory), what do you believe about the age of the Universe? And do you 'accept' the Biblical Flood story?

 

 

 

 

Bob,

I like that analogy - not collecting stamps a hobby.  I think atheism is like not collecting stamps but with an all knowing pious face on it.  But that doesn't mean you're not an expert on what the God you don't believe in, believe, or believe exists...does - yes this you know - and say - in great detail - so you can enable yourself to (hopefully) come to believe in GOD less and believe in yourself more.  You have your straw men and your straw god.  Do you not collect straw for a hobby... or stamps?  

I was raised by great Christian parents.  But there were surrounding deeply ingrained doctrines I had to break free from - possibly my own misunderstanding or early on perception when in a position of ignorance where I thought I knew something (like you describing what the God Who Created the Heavens and the Earth - but you don't believe exists - is doing).  Teedilly freakin dee.  

I would obiquelly compare my breaking free of deeply ingrained ideas to when a doctor decided - hey -  there was such a thing as germs and bacteria - and they jailed him and put him in an asylum later.  He had a new doctrine that was true and could be experimentally proven but the experts that were gathering and researching information from life that fit what they felt was real and fit into other facts they had screwed together to support their scaffold around their tower of ignorance.  So their religion had become a "party spirit" of "we're right and everybody else is wrong".  Eventually they had egg on their face and as you say - no stamps for their hobby.  Maybe you can get what I broke free from from that analogy.  

I accept the flood, yes - er - ree Bob.  And I am confident of it.  Also the Red Sea parted and the children of Israel went through on dry ground.  A donkey talked, David killed Goliath with a sling (I used to love those slings), Jonah spent 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of a big fish before he decided to go to Nineveh, Elijhah called fire down on 50 soldiers, Jesus was raised from the dead on the 3rd day, cursed a fig tree, etc, etc.  I believe the Bible Bob.  It's all true - but you have to know the Author to understand it (unlike science).  

As far as the age of the earth the Bible doesn't say and I don't know.  But in Ecclesiastes it says (paraphrased) there is nothing new under the sun - is has been already in the ages before.  That's possibly a hint that God has made other worlds before, winnowed the wheat, collected the stamps and burned the chaff.  The materials could be billions of years old, used clay.  The Bible doesn't give dates - that dating thing came about with one of these scientific experts.  I'm ok with the things not revealed - curious, but ok with leaving them unknown.  

 

In your next post you go on and on about the wonderful atoms in the body, etc, as if you created yourself.  (ha) Is that an atheist hobby or religion?  Anyway, then you go on to make sure and say how you've risen above the primitive idea that a God Who Knows more than you put this all together.  That would be like discovering fire or something.  

 

 

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Since I do not base my approach on anything that can reasonably be compared with religious faith, you still don't understand where I am coming from. To truly appreciate Science, you need the opposite of 'Faith', namely a level of distrust in everything we currently accept about the Universe as described by Science, so that if someone finds good evidence that it may in fact be wrong, we are prepared to accept what can be shown to be a much better interpretation. Or are saying I have faith in the idea of not having Faith? The continuing advances in our understanding, which have lead to so many advances in Communications (including what allows us to carry on this discussion from opposite sides of tha world), in exploring space, in the ability to control and protect ourselves and our children from many of the diseases which, your God, if he exists, inflicted on us, showing us how little he respects us AND our innocent children.

Calling my position a "faith" is like calling Atheism a 'religion', when it is, in essence, a lack of a religion. Or to quote a very common analogy, it is like calling "not collecting stamps a 'hobby'. Your inability to grasp this shows you are the one who is in darkness, or whose vision is blocked by your faith, or perhaps blinded by the light you refer to. It is the SHAME of your God to torture the children, especially the children of the poor, with so many germs, viruses, and parasites. I could never 'accept' or praise such a cruel, deceitful, vengeful being if it could be shown to exist.

You didn't answer my question about your early environment: was it, or was it not, at least based on a nominally Christian belief, but obviously not one that 'worked for you'?

Since you appear to reject the Science of the Origin of the Universe (the Big Bang Theory), what do you believe about the age of the Universe? And do you 'accept' the Biblical Flood story?

 

 

Bob,

I like that analogy - not collecting stamps a hobby.  I think atheism is like not collecting stamps but with a knowing pious face on it.  But that doesn't mean you're not an expert on what the God you don't believe in, believe, or believe exists...does - yes this you know and say in great detail so you can enable yourself to hopefully come to believe in Him less and believe in yourself more.  You have your straw men and your straw god.  Do you not collect straw for a hobby... or stamps?  

I was raised by great Christian parents.  But there were surrounding deeply ingrained doctrines I had to break free from - possibly my own misunderstanding or early on perception when in a position of ignorance where I thought I knew something (like you describing what the God Who Created the Heavens and the Earth but you don't believe exists is doing).  Teedilly freakin dee.  

I would obiquelly compare my breaking free of deeply ingrained ideas to when a doctor decided - hey -  there was such a thing as germs and bacteria - and they jailed him and put him in an asylum later.  He had a new doctrine that was true and could be experimentally proven but the experts that were gathering and researching information from life that fit what they felt was real and fit into other facts they had screwed together to support their scaffold around their tower of ignorance.  So their religion had become a "party spirit" of "we're right and everybody else is wrong".  Eventually they had egg on their face and as you say - no stamps for their hobby.  Maybe you can get what I broke free from from that analogy.  

I accept the flood, yes - er - ree Bob.  And I am confident of it.  Also the Red Sea parted and the children of Israel went through on dry ground.  A donkey talked, David killed Goliath with a sling (I used to love those slings), Jonah spent 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of a big fish before he decided to go to Nineveh, Elijhah called fire down on 50 soldiers, Jesus was raised from the dead on the 3rd day, cursed a fig tree, etc, etc.  I believe the Bible Bob.  It's all true - but you have to know the Author to understand it (unlike science).  

As far as the age of the earth the Bible doesn't say and I don't know.  But in Ecclesiastes it says (paraphrased) there is nothing new under the sun - is has been already in the ages before.  That's possibly a hint that God has made other worlds before, winnowed the wheat, collected the stamps and burned the chaff.  The materials could be billions of years old, used clay.  The Bible doesn't give dates - that dating thing came about with one of these scientific experts.  I'm ok with the things not revealed - curious, but ok with leaving them unknown.  

 

In your next post you go on and on about the wonderful atoms in the body, etc, as if you created yourself.  (ha) Is that an atheist hobby or religion?  Anyway, then you go on to make sure and say how you've risen above the primitive idea that a God Who Knows more than you put this all together.  That would be like discovering fire or something.  

 

Please, Fonzie, can you get it through your head that I don't have, and never have had, any notion of a God of any form as part of my thought processes, it really has never meant any more to me than the idea of Santa Claus. Your confirmation that you have always been in an environment where a 'God' was always assumed, even if you may have had different doctrines attached to your particular God concept, means I can return to my earlier conclusion that explains why you are simply unable to conceive of anyone for whom the idea of God is simply an irrelevant, maybe childish, concept which plays no part in their personal development. Which is why you keep trying to interpret my comments in some way as me creating my own personal idea of God, or considering myselfy as my own 'God', or other crazy ideas. No 'pious face' on it, at least for me and most atheists I know, even if there could well be some people who that would apply to.

So you do believe all that mythical nonsense in the Bible, for which there is little or no evidence, and in many cases, strong evidence against it, often from recent historical and archeological research. The idea of the Earth being about 6000 years old does come from the Bible, by following the genealogies from Adam to Abraham as described there. Not from scientific experts, from Bible scholars.

My talk about atoms was to explain that life is intimitately dependendent on complex material processes, so the idea of some 'life' being possible in a immaterial form is not credible. It was not about any 'wonderful atoms' but about the wonderful structures, which can only be comprised* of atoms, which are at the core of Life as we know it, such as DNA.

*Correction NOTE: 'built' is  clearly the wrong word to use here - it too strongly implies a 'builder', which is asking for trouble when trying to explain reality to Bible addicts.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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It was still quite easy...

Quote:
Your confirmation that you have always been in an environment where a 'God' was always assumed, even if you may have had different doctrines attached to your particular God concept, means I can return to my earlier conclusion that explains why you are simply unable to conceive of anyone for whom the idea of God is simply an irrelevant, maybe childish, concept which plays no part in their personal development.
god is the most relevant concept possible (greater than which cannot be thought).  An child who grows up without god will have poor personal development.  How can you understand creation if you don't know the Creator?

Quote:
So you do believe all that mythical nonsense in the Bible, for which there is little or no evidence, and in many cases, strong evidence against it, often from recent historical and archeological research. The idea of the Earth being about 6000 years old does come from the Bible, by following the genealogies from Adam to Abraham as described there. Not from scientific experts, from Bible scholars.
The bible is only "mythical nonsense" to those who deny the Eternal Truth.  All the true scientific evidence fits with the bible.  Any scientific evidence which contradicts the bible is false.

Quote:
My talk about atoms was to explain that life is intimitately dependendent on complex material processes, so the idea of some 'life' being possible in a immaterial form is not credible. It was not about any 'wonderful atoms' but about the wonderful structures, which can only be built comprised of atoms, which are at the core of Life as we know it, such as DNA.
A building is evidence of a builder.  If all things are built of atoms, that points to god, the Builder of all things.

NOTE correction - built has been replaced by 'comprised' which in no way can imply a 'builder'.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Fonzie
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NICE BOAT BOB

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Since I do not base my approach on anything that can reasonably be compared with religious faith, you still don't understand where I am coming from. To truly appreciate Science, you need the opposite of 'Faith', namely a level of distrust in everything we currently accept about the Universe as described by Science, so that if someone finds good evidence that it may in fact be wrong, we are prepared to accept what can be shown to be a much better interpretation. Or are saying I have faith in the idea of not having Faith? The continuing advances in our understanding, which have lead to so many advances in Communications (including what allows us to carry on this discussion from opposite sides of tha world), in exploring space, in the ability to control and protect ourselves and our children from many of the diseases which, your God, if he exists, inflicted on us, showing us how little he respects us AND our innocent children.

Calling my position a "faith" is like calling Atheism a 'religion', when it is, in essence, a lack of a religion. Or to quote a very common analogy, it is like calling "not collecting stamps a 'hobby'. Your inability to grasp this shows you are the one who is in darkness, or whose vision is blocked by your faith, or perhaps blinded by the light you refer to. It is the SHAME of your God to torture the children, especially the children of the poor, with so many germs, viruses, and parasites. I could never 'accept' or praise such a cruel, deceitful, vengeful being if it could be shown to exist.

You didn't answer my question about your early environment: was it, or was it not, at least based on a nominally Christian belief, but obviously not one that 'worked for you'?

Since you appear to reject the Science of the Origin of the Universe (the Big Bang Theory), what do you believe about the age of the Universe? And do you 'accept' the Biblical Flood story?

 

 

Bob,

I like that analogy - not collecting stamps a hobby.  I think atheism is like not collecting stamps but with a knowing pious face on it.  But that doesn't mean you're not an expert on what the God you don't believe in, believe, or believe exists...does - yes this you know and say in great detail so you can enable yourself to hopefully come to believe in Him less and believe in yourself more.  You have your straw men and your straw god.  Do you not collect straw for a hobby... or stamps?  

I was raised by great Christian parents.  But there were surrounding deeply ingrained doctrines I had to break free from - possibly my own misunderstanding or early on perception when in a position of ignorance where I thought I knew something (like you describing what the God Who Created the Heavens and the Earth but you don't believe exists is doing).  Teedilly freakin dee.  

I would obiquelly compare my breaking free of deeply ingrained ideas to when a doctor decided - hey -  there was such a thing as germs and bacteria - and they jailed him and put him in an asylum later.  He had a new doctrine that was true and could be experimentally proven but the experts that were gathering and researching information from life that fit what they felt was real and fit into other facts they had screwed together to support their scaffold around their tower of ignorance.  So their religion had become a "party spirit" of "we're right and everybody else is wrong".  Eventually they had egg on their face and as you say - no stamps for their hobby.  Maybe you can get what I broke free from from that analogy.  

I accept the flood, yes - er - ree Bob.  And I am confident of it.  Also the Red Sea parted and the children of Israel went through on dry ground.  A donkey talked, David killed Goliath with a sling (I used to love those slings), Jonah spent 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of a big fish before he decided to go to Nineveh, Elijhah called fire down on 50 soldiers, Jesus was raised from the dead on the 3rd day, cursed a fig tree, etc, etc.  I believe the Bible Bob.  It's all true - but you have to know the Author to understand it (unlike science).  

As far as the age of the earth the Bible doesn't say and I don't know.  But in Ecclesiastes it says (paraphrased) there is nothing new under the sun - is has been already in the ages before.  That's possibly a hint that God has made other worlds before, winnowed the wheat, collected the stamps and burned the chaff.  The materials could be billions of years old, used clay.  The Bible doesn't give dates - that dating thing came about with one of these scientific experts.  I'm ok with the things not revealed - curious, but ok with leaving them unknown.  

 

In your next post you go on and on about the wonderful atoms in the body, etc, as if you created yourself.  (ha) Is that an atheist hobby or religion?  Anyway, then you go on to make sure and say how you've risen above the primitive idea that a God Who Knows more than you put this all together.  That would be like discovering fire or something.  

 

Please, Fonzie, can you get it through your head that I don't have, and never have had, any notion of a God of any form as part of my thought processes, it really has never meant any more to me than the idea of Santa Claus. Your confirmation that you have always been in an environment where a 'God' was always assumed, even if you may have had different doctrines attached to your particular God concept, means I can return to my earlier conclusion that explains why you are simply unable to conceive of anyone for whom the idea of God is simply an irrelevant, maybe childish, concept which plays no part in their personal development. Which is why you keep trying to interpret my comments in some way as me creating my own personal idea of God, or considering myselfy as my own 'God', or other crazy ideas. No 'pious face' on it, at least for me and most atheists I know, even if there could well be some people who that would apply to.

So you do believe all that mythical nonsense in the Bible, for which there is little or no evidence, and in many cases, strong evidence against it, often from recent historical and archeological research. The idea of the Earth being about 6000 years old does come from the Bible, by following the genealogies from Adam to Abraham as described there. Not from scientific experts, from Bible scholars.

My talk about atoms was to explain that life is intimitately dependendent on complex material processes, so the idea of some 'life' being possible in a immaterial form is not credible. It was not about any 'wonderful atoms' but about the wonderful structures, which can only be comprised* of atoms, which are at the core of Life as we know it, such as DNA.

*Correction NOTE: 'built' is  clearly the wrong word to use here - it too strongly implies a 'builder', which is asking for trouble when trying to explain reality to Bible addicts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bob,

There is a "pious" face on your atheism, looking down pontificating on the "childish santa claus concept" of God.  All the ways of a man are justified in his own eyes - a truth you apply consciously or unconsciously just like digestion.  Also, the things you trust in, have faith in - are your god (small "g" in your case) whether consciously or unconsiously; the truth remains true that every man has his god and becomes like his god.  In your case let me just say frankly, it's a boring god yours and it's having that effect.  I don't say that from above, but from afar... and - like cows looking on another cow being hoisted out of quicksand - in fear and hope.

The idea of how old the earth is doesn't come from the Bible but self-proclaimed "experts" who think they have it all figured out.  It's ok they believe that but the Bible doesn't say how old the earth is so I leave it at that.  Do you have a verse for that?  But yes I believe all the Bible is God-Breathed, Living and Active, Sharper than any Two Edged Sword, able to divide bone from marrow, discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.  And The God Who Wrote It is guarding it and watching observing the attitude of those receiving or rejecting it, Knowing All.  It Lives, God Lives, and in Him we live and move and have our being in Christ.

Yeah and you did a little marveling about those atoms, the unique DNA, the wonderful structures they are, the complexity.  If you had come by Noah's boat at the time you might have admired it and said, "that's a nice boat!" - but you wouldn't have been saved unless you GOT IN Bob.  The same with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
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 Fonzie, you need to turn

 Fonzie, you need to turn your God spectacles back on yourself and realize that you are even more subject to over-confidence in your own pet beliefs, helped by the arrogant assumption that your 'knowledge" of God has ultimately been conveyed to you by God himself. You stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that you have no more justification for your particular beliefs that those who you say you rejected.

Science realized this basic problem with faith-based beliefs long ago - they are not easily tested. In fact the 'tests' they do come up with are unconsciously heavily biased to be mostly just self-justificstions, since their minds could not cope with the slightest hint that they could be mistaken.

While there are, and have been, practising scientists who fall into a version of the same very human trap, most will welcome the harshest possible criticism and testing. This is why there are far fewer scientific theories that have become well-accepted at any one period of history than there are religious 'faiths' that have significant numbers of followers. It is also why it would be very unusual for groups of scientists following opposing theories to come into open conflict, while the opposite is true in the violent history of religious disputes.

Of course I fully expect you to once again dismiss all this and twist and mis-interpret everything I have said as just a pathetic attempt to defend my particular poor excuse for a 'faith' in myself as my own 'God'. So sad.

Right from your first post, where you expected us not to believe you could be 'really happy' in your beliefs, which I, for one, had no trouble accepting, ie, that it really did 'wrk for you'. We understand where you are coming from far better than you understand our position, which certainly suggests, even if it doesn't prove, who has a better grasp of reality. As does your refusal to respond to my refernces to the more problematic aspects of God's 'creation', such all the cute little viruses such as Ebola.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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LOOKING SADLY AT THE PROBLEM BUT NOT THE SOLUTION

BobSpence wrote:

 Fonzie, you need to turn your God spectacles back on yourself and realize that you are even more subject to over-confidence in your own pet beliefs, helped by the arrogant assumption that your 'knowledge" of God has ultimately been conveyed to you by God himself. You stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that you have no more justification for your particular beliefs that those who you say you rejected.

Science realized this basic problem with faith-based beliefs long ago - they are not easily tested. In fact the 'tests' they do come up with are unconsciously heavily biased to be mostly just self-justificstions, since their minds could not cope with the slightest hint that they could be mistaken.

While there are, and have been, practising scientists who fall into a version of the same very human trap, most will welcome the harshest possible criticism and testing. This is why there are far fewer scientific theories that have become well-accepted at any one period of history than there are religious 'faiths' that have significant numbers of followers. It is also why it would be very unusual for groups of scientists following opposing theories to come into open conflict, while the opposite is true in the violent history of religious disputes.

Of course I fully expect you to once again dismiss all this and twist and mis-interpret everything I have said as just a pathetic attempt to defend my particular poor excuse for a 'faith' in myself as my own 'God'. So sad.

Right from your first post, where you expected us not to believe you could be 'really happy' in your beliefs, which I, for one, had no trouble accepting, ie, that it really did 'wrk for you'. We understand where you are coming from far better than you understand our position, which certainly suggests, even if it doesn't prove, who has a better grasp of reality. As does your refusal to respond to my refernces to the more problematic aspects of God's 'creation', such all the cute little viruses such as Ebola.

 

 

 

 

Bob,

It's true there is always the danger of projecting things that get to me and I don't want to face on you or whoever - but the thing is your position doesn't get to me or bother me.  I have no trouble believing you see it all as you describe - but I see it from a different viewpoint than you.  It's a different perspective you have from far down a road I've never wanted to go down.  It's not that I don't believe you and it's true I'm not able to honestly put myself in your position and "see the elephant" (as historical re-enactors say).  I can't emphasize with your unbelief - it's a foreign world to me and a world I don't want to tour or travel even half price or free.

While that is true I don't think you are able to put yourself in my position either.  You say, "we understand" - but face the fact that you don't no matter how many faithless people who have shipwrecked you have talked to.  You launch to what you think is my state of mind and spirit in your effort of empathy but "Peace that passes understanding" means you're not there and you don't understand.  And, no, I'm not under illusions I'm accomplishing something telling you this.

I can come across as arrogant to you because I am confident of What and Who I believe.  It would be arrogant if the object of the "who" and "what" were me - but I see myself as a weak sheep.  I do however have great confidence in my Shepherd.  So at least if that's still arrogance to you maybe you can label it a different kind of arrogance at least.  As the Holy Spirit says through Paul, "when I am weak I am strong" - understanding that his strength comes from...understanding where his strength is.  Thus, Paul honestly viewed himself as "chief of sinners" - but seeking to Know Jesus with all the energy that Jesus inspired within him.  

You seem to present the idea that it's not possible to be confident of what you believe and who.  I think that's true with you and an example of something you can't project yourself into - IOW the confidence you can have in Knowing Jesus with the Gift of the Indwelling Holy Spirit.  As Jesus said (paraphrased) 'you shall all know Me'.  It's like the kid not knowing a lot about life but he knows who his dad is.  

Listen, 'so sad Bob', I've told you before don't be sad about me at all.  I've found The Treasure - and it's Jesus Christ.  You show me where I have twisted anything.  Twisting would mean dishonesty.  I haven't said what you want to hear but I haven't knowingly twisted anything.  I haven't tried to make it boring as a college class for you - true - but I haven't twisted anything.  Since you brought this up why don't you give examples of things I have twisted Bob.  Is it that you don't have any sense of humor that you think that?  Maybe I've made the mistake of assuming you do.  

Ok, I thought I responded to your nasty virus question - that's another thing BTW - I haven't intentionally avoided any of your questions.  I just don't give the answers that fit your favored research puzzle.  

There is a "dark side to love".  If you start reading the book of Zephaniah and see God talking about a "Day of the LORD" when He's going to "wipe everything out" essentially you probably don't see it as Love to say the least.  You don't see God's punishment of the sin of idol worship of Milcom, (sacrificing children), as just.  You don't see God's discipline of the Israelite's complaining in the wilderness or their worshipping a golden calf as worthy of poisonious fiery serpents  biting them.  You probably don't think it's fair if the personification of "Wisdom" in Proverbs 1-9 will "laugh at the calamity" of those who don't accept her invitation.  Evil men don't understand justice but those who fear the LORD understand it completely (and this is out of the Bible not out of my arrogance).  

While it's true that nothing happens on earth unless God allows it - God has settled the question of how much He Loves everybody including His enemies by sending His Son to die for our sins.  I know you don't accept that either, so it's hard for me to answer this question.  

I have a friend that found out he had cancer.  It caused him to look at things he had avoided - and he came to consider the affliction a blessing.  

I'll try another analogy.  The boy writes his dad from college saying he is homesick, overwhelmed and wants to give up and come home.  The father writes a stern letter telling him to stay in there, buckle down, be a man and finish the course.  Could that be seen as love?  

The Bible tells us that "all things work together for good to those who Love the LORD".  If I live or die it is to the LORD.  My time is in His hand.  God knows exactly what He's doing and eventually you will know that for a fact - possibly it will be after the fact in your case.  

Another thing you don't accept in your "so sad" thinking is that there is a devil.  The devil can't do anything unless God allows it - but you notice in the first couple of chapters of Job the devil does things and TRIES to make Job think God did it.  He tries to get Job thinking like you Bob, blaming God for the "fire of God coming out of the sky", etc.  He doesn't have to do that to you because if you have any thought of God you have complaints or blame.  

Ebola, atom bombs, agent orange, - they all are just doors to death.  Jesus solved the problem of man's being captive to the fear of death and beyond.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:Bob,It's true

Fonzie wrote:

Bob,

It's true there is always the danger of projecting things that get to me and I don't want to face on you or whoever - but the thing is your position doesn't get to me or bother me.  I have no trouble believing you see it all as you describe - but I see it from a different viewpoint than you.  It's a different perspective you have from far down a road I've never wanted to go down.  It's not that I don't believe you and it's true I'm not able to honestly put myself in your position and "see the elephant" (as historical re-enactors say).  I can't emphasize with your unbelief - it's a foreign world to me and a world I don't want to tour or travel even half price or free.

While that is true I don't think you are able to put yourself in my position either.  You say, "we understand" - but face the fact that you don't no matter how many faithless people who have shipwrecked you have talked to.  You launch to what you think is my state of mind and spirit in your effort of empathy but "Peace that passes understanding" means you're not there and you don't understand.  And, no, I'm not under illusions I'm accomplishing something telling you this.

I can come across as arrogant to you because I am confident of What and Who I believe.  It would be arrogant if the object of the "who" and "what" were me - but I see myself as a weak sheep.  I do however have great confidence in my Shepherd.  So at least if that's still arrogance to you maybe you can label it a different kind of arrogance at least.  As the Holy Spirit says through Paul, "when I am weak I am strong" - understanding that his strength comes from...understanding where his strength is.  Thus, Paul honestly viewed himself as "chief of sinners" - but seeking to Know Jesus with all the energy that Jesus inspired within him.  

You seem to present the idea that it's not possible to be confident of what you believe and who.  I think that's true with you and an example of something you can't project yourself into - IOW the confidence you can have in Knowing Jesus with the Gift of the Indwelling Holy Spirit.  As Jesus said (paraphrased) 'you shall all know Me'.  It's like the kid not knowing a lot about life but he knows who his dad is.  

Listen, 'so sad Bob', I've told you before don't be sad about me at all.  I've found The Treasure - and it's Jesus Christ.  You show me where I have twisted anything.  Twisting would mean dishonesty.  I haven't said what you want to hear but I haven't knowingly twisted anything.  I haven't tried to make it boring as a college class for you - true - but I haven't twisted anything.  Since you brought this up why don't you give examples of things I have twisted Bob.  Is it that you don't have any sense of humor that you think that?  Maybe I've made the mistake of assuming you do.  

Ok, I thought I responded to your nasty virus question - that's another thing BTW - I haven't intentionally avoided any of your questions.  I just don't give the answers that fit your favored research puzzle.  

There is a "dark side to love".  If you start reading the book of Zephaniah and see God talking about a "Day of the LORD" when He's going to "wipe everything out" essentially you probably don't see it as Love to say the least.  You don't see God's punishment of the sin of idol worship of Milcom, (sacrificing children), as just.  You don't see God's discipline of the Israelite's complaining in the wilderness or their worshipping a golden calf as worthy of poisonious fiery serpents  biting them.  You probably don't think it's fair if the personification of "Wisdom" in Proverbs 1-9 will "laugh at the calamity" of those who don't accept her invitation.  Evil men don't understand justice but those who fear the LORD understand it completely (and this is out of the Bible not out of my arrogance).  

While it's true that nothing happens on earth unless God allows it - God has settled the question of how much He Loves everybody including His enemies by sending His Son to die for our sins.  I know you don't accept that either, so it's hard for me to answer this question.  

I have a friend that found out he had cancer.  It caused him to look at things he had avoided - and he came to consider the affliction a blessing.  

I'll try another analogy.  The boy writes his dad from college saying he is homesick, overwhelmed and wants to give up and come home.  The father writes a stern letter telling him to stay in there, buckle down, be a man and finish the course.  Could that be seen as love?  

The Bible tells us that "all things work together for good to those who Love the LORD".  If I live or die it is to the LORD.  My time is in His hand.  God knows exactly what He's doing and eventually you will know that for a fact - possibly it will be after the fact in your case.  

Another thing you don't accept in your "so sad" thinking is that there is a devil.  The devil can't do anything unless God allows it - but you notice in the first couple of chapters of Job the devil does things and TRIES to make Job think God did it.  He tries to get Job thinking like you Bob, blaming God for the "fire of God coming out of the sky", etc.  He doesn't have to do that to you because if you have any thought of God you have complaints or blame.  

Ebola, atom bombs, agent orange, - they all are just doors to death.  Jesus solved the problem of man's being captive to the fear of death and beyond.  

The unthinking arrogance I refer to is your absolute confidence that your belief is true and that everything in the Bible is true, and of course that God exists, and that your personal judgement in choosing to simply accept all this as unquestionably true is adequate to make such an assessment.

Why do you include "atom bombs and agent orange" in with Ebola?? Ebola, and all the other viral and bacterial diseases are the work of your God (assuming He exists), the others are creations of Man, so not relevant to my argument.

If there were a "Devil" God would still be morally respnsible for all the evil attributed to that character, since He would have the power to block any evil acts committed by the Devil, or anyone else for that matter.

And yes, Death can be a merciful release for people afflicted by serious disease, disability, or other terrible circumstances. That hardly justifies creating the diseases in the first place, particularly when most of these diseases also afflict very young children.

If it is OK to get to go to Heaven early, what is the point of all that suffering in life?

I'm sorry, the twisted reasoning used to try and put a more positive 'spin' on the evils your God is responsible for just disgust me. I'm not blaming the twisted reasoning on you, Fonzie, you've just read it out of the Bible. It's what you get when you start with a false assumption - that there is an all-powerful and loving and Just God who created this mess -  and then try and force it to fit reality by elaborating and re-working the story.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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Clearly the Troll would only more god/jesus/light-based ruminations, as was still quite easy to duplicate...

Quote:
The unthinking arrogance I refer to is your absolute confidence that your belief is true and that everything in the Bible is true, and of course that God exists, and that your personal judgement in choosing to simply accept all this as unquestionably true is adequate to make such an assessment.
It is far more arrogant to think you know more than the Creator, and that Science can disprove the eternal truth.

Quote:
Why do you include "atom bombs and agent orange" in with Ebola?? Ebola, and all the other viral and bacterial diseases are the work of your God (assuming He exists), the others are creations of Man, so not relevant to my argument.If there were a "Devil" God would still be morally respnsible for all the evil attributed to that character, since He would have the power to block any evil acts committed by the Devil, or anyone else for that matter.
All suffering is punishment for man's sin, whether invented by man, or part of our fallen nature.  god cannot block the devil without also blocking our free will.  

Quote:
If it is OK to get to go to Heaven early, what is the point of all that suffering in life?
To appreciate how much god was willing to suffer to save us from eternal suffering.  When heaven lasts for eternity, there's no need to hurry.  

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


BobSpence
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 The supreme, unthinking

 The supreme, unthinking arrogance of the believer who is so certain that his particular version of the God delusion is not a delusion but an undisputable FACT communicated  to him in some manner by his God, ignoring the billions of people who believe in some other delusion with just as much conviction and as little actual verifiable evidence, continues to have me face-palming. What makes your God real and all the others just errors or mistakes of some kind?

If I see someone about to commit some horrible act on another person, I would not hesitate to come to his aid if I felt I could. Yet somehow it would be wrong for God to do something equivalent because it would interfere with tha freeedom of action, 'the free will' of the person with the intent to cause harm? Is this the same God who 'hardened Pharoah's heart'

Or from 2 Thessalonians 2:11 New International Version (NIV)

'11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie'

So if it is OK for God to explicitly delude people to contol them so he can 'justify' punishing them, why is it not ok to allow him to save them from suffering, even when it is not that person's fault?

Christian 'morality' is just so screwed up. Again, this is what you get when peple keep trying to make a story seem consistent rather than admit that the evidence is that it is simply made-up to support some primitive beliefs.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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MY HOBBY IS NOT LECTURING ON NUCLEAR PHYSICS

BobSpence wrote:

 The supreme, unthinking arrogance of the believer who is so certain that his particular version of the God delusion is not a delusion but an undisputable FACT communicated  to him in some manner by his God, ignoring the billions of people who believe in some other delusion with just as much conviction and as little actual verifiable evidence, continues to have me face-palming. What makes your God real and all the others just errors or mistakes of some kind?

If I see someone about to commit some horrible act on another person, I would not hesitate to come to his aid if I felt I could. Yet somehow it would be wrong for God to do something equivalent because it would interfere with tha freeedom of action, 'the free will' of the person with the intent to cause harm? Is this the same God who 'hardened Pharoah's heart'

Or from 2 Thessalonians 2:11 New International Version (NIV)

'11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie'

So if it is OK for God to explicitly delude people to contol them so he can 'justify' punishing them, why is it not ok to allow him to save them from suffering, even when it is not that person's fault?

Christian 'morality' is just so screwed up. Again, this is what you get when peple keep trying to make a story seem consistent rather than admit that the evidence is that it is simply made-up to support some primitive beliefs.

 

 

 

Bob,

Just like Harold wanting to be the front end of the horse for a change - when it comes to talking about "screwed up" - "stick to what you know Harold".  You love to talk about the God you don't believe in or know and describe Him in your "straw god" terms then act like it upsets you no end.  Give me a break.  The thing that's "screwed up" is your concept of unbelief from the first thought.  I can't help you out because the beginning is something you reject and meet at the door in unbelief:  The Fear of God is the Beginning of Knowledge.  Fools despise Wisdom and Instruction.  You don't accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ which means you've judged yourself so far already as rejecting God.  He hasn't rejected you yet because you're still alive - and if you're an enemy He loves His enemies.  The ball is in your court.  

But I've noticed you haven't given a discourse on the height and breadth and beginning and end of the results of your research and atheist freethinking.  One thing you have come up with is justification of not being able to know anything for sure.  While I think that does represent a truth for you in your position  (rejecting faith in God and asking something of man that man doesn't have to give) it hardly represents a description of a charted course or a life crusing on with billowed sails moving forward to new horizons.  Are you just making it up moment by moment as you go?  Kind of inefficient Bob and I wouldn't want to try to find my way out of the outback that way.  

So next you come on and say I have no idea what you're about - yeah, you're right, you haven't given it.  And I don't think you have found it either.  You've "settled" with something you're happy with?  Hey, how would I know.  I've laid my cards on the table and you say you have a wining hand - so let's see it.  

The Bible is like I said "Living and Active, Sharper than any two edged sword, dividing bone and marrow and able to understand the intentions of the heart."  Thus, it (along with the intimate relationship with the Holy Spirit and The Real God Working along with the Word, the Word becoming an intimate companion, etc.) - thus it creates that kind of confidence.  We are capable of "Knowing God".  John wrote his gospel that we might Know Him and have Abundant Life.  So I'm telling you the Truth about all this - not lying.  I have no doubts about the Bible or the God of the Bible.  When you start talking about it - it's evident you don't know the slightest thing about what you're saying.

So instead of trying to handle things you know nothing about why don't you lay out the many splendored wonders of atheistic life?  I don't know what they are - but I'm sure if they exist you do. Here's your opportunity to promote them.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote: Bob,Just like

Fonzie wrote:

 

Bob,

Just like Harold wanting to be the front end of the horse for a change - when it comes to talking about "screwed up" - "stick to what you know Harold".  You love to talk about the God you don't believe in or know and describe Him in your "straw god" terms then act like it upsets you no end.  Give me a break.  The thing that's "screwed up" is your concept of unbelief from the first thought.  I can't help you out because the beginning is something you reject and meet at the door in unbelief:  The Fear of God is the Beginning of Knowledge.  Fools despise Wisdom and Instruction.  You don't accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ which means you've judged yourself so far already as rejecting God.  He hasn't rejected you yet because you're still alive - and if you're an enemy He loves His enemies.  The ball is in your court.  

But I've noticed you haven't given a discourse on the height and breadth and beginning and end of the results of your research and atheist freethinking.  One thing you have come up with is justification of not being able to know anything for sure.  While I think that does represent a truth for you in your position  (rejecting faith in God and asking something of man that man doesn't have to give) it hardly represents a description of a charted course or a life crusing on with billowed sails moving forward to new horizons.  Are you just making it up moment by moment as you go?  Kind of inefficient Bob and I wouldn't want to try to find my way out of the outback that way.  

So next you come on and say I have no idea what you're about - yeah, you're right, you haven't given it.  And I don't think you have found it either.  You've "settled" with something you're happy with?  Hey, how would I know.  I've laid my cards on the table and you say you have a wining hand - so let's see it.  

The Bible is like I said "Living and Active, Sharper than any two edged sword, dividing bone and marrow and able to understand the intentions of the heart."  Thus, it (along with the intimate relationship with the Holy Spirit and The Real God Working along with the Word, the Word becoming an intimate companion, etc.) - thus it creates that kind of confidence.  We are capable of "Knowing God".  John wrote his gospel that we might Know Him and have Abundant Life.  So I'm telling you the Truth about all this - not lying.  I have no doubts about the Bible or the God of the Bible.  When you start talking about it - it's evident you don't know the slightest thing about what you're saying.

So instead of trying to handle things you know nothing about why don't you lay out the many splendored wonders of atheistic life?  I don't know what they are - but I'm sure if they exist you do. Here's your opportunity to promote them.  

PLease don't even think about "helping me out". You reveal yet again YOU have not the faintest idea of what it is like to look out at the world without your vision obscured and blurred by the misconceptions and fairy tales of the Bible, ie, via 'unbelief'. My 'research'? I presume you mean my basic life course of aiming to improve and refine my understanding of "Life, the Universe, and Everything", in the words of the wonderful writer Douglas Adams.

A basic error which underlies much of your misunderstanding of just about everything is not 'getting' the fundamental Truth that there is very little we are justified in being absolutely certain about. I can be fairly certain that there is no significant probability that there exists an actual God being. The Bible certainly seems to be the work of a bunch of deluded human beings who were intent on recording their somewhat poorly thought-through beliefs and very old style rules on how to behave, such as the many situations which would justify stoning a child to death. Nice stuff.

Did you have any female teachers at school? The Bible says women are not allowed to teach, or be in any position of authority over a man. Or wear jewelery. So the Bible solidly endorses the subjugation of women.

It also supports slavery:

Exodus 20.21: If a man strikes his male or female servant with a stick and he or she dies as a direct result, the master must be punished. But if the servant survives a day or two, the master is not to be punished because the servant is his property.

Genesis confirms the un-surprising fact that the people responsible for the stories of 'Creation' had little or no idea of the nature of the stars and planets and early life-forms, so the Genesis narrative bears little relation at any point to what we now have reason to believe about the origin of "Life, the Universe, and Everything".

That is just a few 'hilites' of why I have zero respect for the Bible or anyone who takes it seriously, let alone literally, ie word-for-word. Your comments have got me doing more reseaarch into the Bible, revealing ever more reasons why it is Not a 'Good Book'.

The 'wonders' of a life not infected by God belief are what I have tried to convey a few times - the feeling of having some insight into the marvels of "Life, the Universe, and Everything", and some ability to follow the advancement of the Sciences in revealing more of the way the Universe 'works'.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Fonzie
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THE WONDERFUL HIDDEN ATHEIST MYSTERY

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 

Bob,

Just like Harold wanting to be the front end of the horse for a change - when it comes to talking about "screwed up" - "stick to what you know Harold".  You love to talk about the God you don't believe in or know and describe Him in your "straw god" terms then act like it upsets you no end.  Give me a break.  The thing that's "screwed up" is your concept of unbelief from the first thought.  I can't help you out because the beginning is something you reject and meet at the door in unbelief:  The Fear of God is the Beginning of Knowledge.  Fools despise Wisdom and Instruction.  You don't accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ which means you've judged yourself so far already as rejecting God.  He hasn't rejected you yet because you're still alive - and if you're an enemy He loves His enemies.  The ball is in your court.  

But I've noticed you haven't given a discourse on the height and breadth and beginning and end of the results of your research and atheist freethinking.  One thing you have come up with is justification of not being able to know anything for sure.  While I think that does represent a truth for you in your position  (rejecting faith in God and asking something of man that man doesn't have to give) it hardly represents a description of a charted course or a life crusing on with billowed sails moving forward to new horizons.  Are you just making it up moment by moment as you go?  Kind of inefficient Bob and I wouldn't want to try to find my way out of the outback that way.  

So next you come on and say I have no idea what you're about - yeah, you're right, you haven't given it.  And I don't think you have found it either.  You've "settled" with something you're happy with?  Hey, how would I know.  I've laid my cards on the table and you say you have a wining hand - so let's see it.  

The Bible is like I said "Living and Active, Sharper than any two edged sword, dividing bone and marrow and able to understand the intentions of the heart."  Thus, it (along with the intimate relationship with the Holy Spirit and The Real God Working along with the Word, the Word becoming an intimate companion, etc.) - thus it creates that kind of confidence.  We are capable of "Knowing God".  John wrote his gospel that we might Know Him and have Abundant Life.  So I'm telling you the Truth about all this - not lying.  I have no doubts about the Bible or the God of the Bible.  When you start talking about it - it's evident you don't know the slightest thing about what you're saying.

So instead of trying to handle things you know nothing about why don't you lay out the many splendored wonders of atheistic life?  I don't know what they are - but I'm sure if they exist you do. Here's your opportunity to promote them.  

PLease don't even think about "helping me out". You reveal yet again YOU have not the faintest idea of what it is like to look out at the world without your vision obscured and blurred by the misconceptions and fairy tales of the Bible, ie, via 'unbelief'. My 'research'? I presume you mean my basic life course of aiming to improve and refine my understanding of "Life, the Universe, and Everything", in the words of the wonderful writer Douglas Adams.

A basic error which underlies much of your misunderstanding of just about everything is not 'getting' the fundamental Truth that there is very little we are justified in being absolutely certain about. I can be fairly certain that there is no significant probability that there exists an actual God being. The Bible certainly seems to be the work of a bunch of deluded human beings who were intent on recording their somewhat poorly thought-through beliefs and very old style rules on how to behave, such as the many situations which would justify stoning a child to death. Nice stuff.

Did you have any female teachers at school? The Bible says women are not allowed to teach, or be in any position of authority over a man. Or wear jewelery. So the Bible solidly endorses the subjugation of women.

It also supports slavery:

Exodus 20.21: If a man strikes his male or female servant with a stick and he or she dies as a direct result, the master must be punished. But if the servant survives a day or two, the master is not to be punished because the servant is his property.

Genesis confirms the un-surprising fact that the people responsible for the stories of 'Creation' had little or no idea of the nature of the stars and planets and early life-forms, so the Genesis narrative bears little relation at any point to what we now have reason to believe about the origin of "Life, the Universe, and Everything".

That is just a few 'hilites' of why I have zero respect for the Bible or anyone who takes it seriously, let alone literally, ie word-for-word. Your comments have got me doing more reseaarch into the Bible, revealing ever more reasons why it is Not a 'Good Book'.

The 'wonders' of a life not infected by God belief are what I have tried to convey a few times - the feeling of having some insight into the marvels of "Life, the Universe, and Everything", and some ability to follow the advancement of the Sciences in revealing more of the way the Universe 'works'.

 

 

 

 

 

Bob,

Your whole post is a concise summary of your disdain for and lack of understanding of the God Breathed Scripture and the God Who Inspired It.   

So again, why don't you instead describe your atheistic "wonders of life", your "feelings" of having some insight into the marvels of life, and yes the universe and everything, its origin (that you think you might possibly have reason to believe in anyway), and some of the revelations of the "wonderful" Douglas Adams (why you have put your faith in him specifically and how he has come to live rent free in your head).   

Don't worry I can't help you.  But what is this wonderful atheist mystery that you have still as yet hidden and have yet to reveal?    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote: Bob,Your

Fonzie wrote:

 

Bob,

Your whole post is a concise summary of your disdain for and lack of understanding of the God Breathed Scripture and the God Who Inspired It.   

So again, why don't you instead describe your atheistic "wonders of life", your "feelings" of having some insight into the marvels of life, and yes the universe and everything, its origin (that you think you might possibly have reason to believe in anyway), and some of the revelations of the "wonderful" Douglas Adams (why you have put your faith in him specifically and how he has come to live rent free in your head).   

Don't worry I can't help you.  But what is this wonderful atheist mystery that you have still as yet hidden and have yet to reveal?    

There is NO 'wonderful atheist mystery'. As I keep trying to explain, my outlook is NOT structured as some second-rate version of how you approach life. It is quite different. My Atheism is simply a assertion that I do not believe in the existence of any gods, or any other supernatural beings, for that matter. The origin, at least the theory most widely accepted (in Science, of course), is The Big Bang Theory, which even you may have heard about. Like any theory in Science, it is not a matter of belief in the sense in which you 'believe' in God and Jesus etc., but just a matter of acceptance that it best fits the totality of current observations, according to those people who study the relevant Science, as reported in current scientific publications. From the Wikipedia entry on Douglas Adams:

" was an English writer, humorist, and dramatist.

Adams is best known as the author of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which originated in 1978 as a BBC radio comedy before developing into a "trilogy" of five books that sold more than 15 million copies in his lifetime and generated a television series, several stage plays, comics, a computer game, and in 2005 a feature film. Adams's contribution to UK radio is commemorated in The Radio Academy's Hall of Fame."

I enjoyed his writings immensely, and heard him speak at an Apple Computer World-Wide Developer's Convention in San Jose, California, and got to meet him briefly after his talk. Richard Dawkins dedicated his book 'The God Delusion' to Adams, and quotes from one of Adams' books "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" As you should have gathered by now, he was,  in his own words, a "radical atheist". I think he would have laughed at the idea of anyone "putting their faith in him". He was also an envirionmental activist and produced a radio documentary and book "Last Chance to See" which was about many endangered species.

I should mention that I watched a quite interesting documentary on National Geographic channel tonight entitled "Secret Lives of the Apostles", in which several Academics, including Bart Ehrman, an American New Testament scholar, attempted to piece together the the history of the Apostles from all avaiable sources, including the Bible. I found it interesting and informative because they took a serious objective approach in assessing what might have actually happened at various points in the narrative of the crucifiction and claimed resurrection, admitting that in some cases we didn't have enough evidence to explain the story, and in other cases where it was more clearly not true. It certainly helped give me a better understanding of the origins of a rather important part of the Christian story.

Hope this helps give you a better understanding of where I am coming from.

So do you accept the scriptural support for slavery and the tratment of women?

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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It was quite pointless to reason with a Troll, though still quite easy to duplicate Its nonsense...

Quote:
My Atheism is simply a assertion that I do not believe in the existence of any gods, or any other supernatural beings, for that matter. The origin, at least the theory most widely accepted (in Science, of course), is The Big Bang Theory, which even you may have heard about. Like any theory in Science, it is not a matter of belief in the sense in which you 'believe' in God and Jesus etc., but just a matter of acceptance that it best fits the totality of current observations, according to those people who study the relevant Science, as reported in current scientific publications.
You have made clear your mind is closed to the possibility of God and believe only in non-supernatural matter.  You admit the big bang is just a theory, and the science is based on current observations.  The science may change with tomorrow's observations, but god's Truth is unchanging, whether you choose to observe it or not.  No current scientific publication can compare to the eternal publication of god's Word.

 

Quote:
From the Wikipedia entry on Douglas Adams:

" was an English writer, humorist, and dramatist.

From the bible entry on jesus:  the only son of god who saved all humanity with his death and resurrection.  

 

Quote:
I enjoyed his writings immensely, and heard him speak at an Apple Computer World-Wide Developer's Convention in San Jose, California, and got to meet him briefly after his talk. Richard Dawkins dedicated his book 'The God Delusion' to Adams, and quotes from one of Adams' books "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
It was Adam's sin that cast us out of the garden, and it is jesus (the 2nd Adam) who can lead us back (no fairies involved).

 

Quote:
I should mention that I watched a quite interesting documentary on National Geographic channel tonight entitled "Secret Lives of the Apostles", in which several Academics, including Bart Ehrman, an American New Testament scholar, attempted to piece together the the history of the Apostles from all avaiable sources, including the Bible. I found it interesting and informative because they took a serious objective approach in assessing what might have actually happened at various points in the narrative of the crucifiction and claimed resurrection, admitting that in some cases we didn't have enough evidence to explain the story, and in other cases where it was more clearly not true. It certainly helped give me a better understanding of the origins of a rather important part of the Christian story.
Were these "academics" there when jesus died and rose again?  If not, how can they claim to know better than the Apostles themselves?  Do they think the Apostles were liars, who suffered and died for something they knew wasn't true?

 

Quote:
So do you accept the scriptural support for slavery and the tratment of women?
god's ways are not our ways.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Fonzie
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SLAVE LAW

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 

Bob,

Your whole post is a concise summary of your disdain for and lack of understanding of the God Breathed Scripture and the God Who Inspired It.   

So again, why don't you instead describe your atheistic "wonders of life", your "feelings" of having some insight into the marvels of life, and yes the universe and everything, its origin (that you think you might possibly have reason to believe in anyway), and some of the revelations of the "wonderful" Douglas Adams (why you have put your faith in him specifically and how he has come to live rent free in your head).   

Don't worry I can't help you.  But what is this wonderful atheist mystery that you have still as yet hidden and have yet to reveal?    

There is NO 'wonderful atheist mystery'. As I keep trying to explain, my outlook is NOT structured as some second-rate version of how you approach life. It is quite different. My Atheism is simply a assertion that I do not believe in the existence of any gods, or any other supernatural beings, for that matter. The origin, at least the theory most widely accepted (in Science, of course), is The Big Bang Theory, which even you may have heard about. Like any theory in Science, it is not a matter of belief in the sense in which you 'believe' in God and Jesus etc., but just a matter of acceptance that it best fits the totality of current observations, according to those people who study the relevant Science, as reported in current scientific publications. From the Wikipedia entry on Douglas Adams:

" was an English writer, humorist, and dramatist.

Adams is best known as the author of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which originated in 1978 as a BBC radio comedy before developing into a "trilogy" of five books that sold more than 15 million copies in his lifetime and generated a television series, several stage plays, comics, a computer game, and in 2005 a feature film. Adams's contribution to UK radio is commemorated in The Radio Academy's Hall of Fame."

I enjoyed his writings immensely, and heard him speak at an Apple Computer World-Wide Developer's Convention in San Jose, California, and got to meet him briefly after his talk. Richard Dawkins dedicated his book 'The God Delusion' to Adams, and quotes from one of Adams' books "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" As you should have gathered by now, he was,  in his own words, a "radical atheist". I think he would have laughed at the idea of anyone "putting their faith in him". He was also an envirionmental activist and produced a radio documentary and book "Last Chance to See" which was about many endangered species.

I should mention that I watched a quite interesting documentary on National Geographic channel tonight entitled "Secret Lives of the Apostles", in which several Academics, including Bart Ehrman, an American New Testament scholar, attempted to piece together the the history of the Apostles from all avaiable sources, including the Bible. I found it interesting and informative because they took a serious objective approach in assessing what might have actually happened at various points in the narrative of the crucifiction and claimed resurrection, admitting that in some cases we didn't have enough evidence to explain the story, and in other cases where it was more clearly not true. It certainly helped give me a better understanding of the origins of a rather important part of the Christian story.

Hope this helps give you a better understanding of where I am coming from.

So do you accept the scriptural support for slavery and the tratment of women?

 

Bob,

There was a paid-for lie (they paid the soldiers to say someone stole the body) when Jesus rose from the dead - maybe a forerunner of your documentary.  You can tell it or hear it however you want I'll give you that - if you go to man.

The Mosaic Law you quoted from had those laws about slavery - and yes I accept that it was the Law at the time.  Also say a slave wanted to stay with the master - he went through a ceremony at the door having an awl pierced through his ear.  The Law was upheld - and fulfilled by Jesus' Life and Death (as the Lamb of God), also the prophecies were fulfilled and the temple worship and ceremony was done away with.  Now Jesus is High Priest, we are all priests (we can each go to God ourselves one on one - not through a priest) and the Law of God is written on our hearts (you have to understand this doesn't mean direct revelation).   

When Jesus died the curtain (I understand it was about 4 inches thick) was torn from top to bottom signifying the Holy of Holies was now open.  We can each go to God through Christ.  The curtain signified His Flesh - torn for us.  Jesus didn't legislate new political laws concerning slavery but His Principles would tell the slave to serve whole heartedly (as serving God) and the master to be considerate (since he also has a Master in heaven.  An example of that is found in Obadiah.  

Ok it sounds like you are more than a casual fan of Douglas Adams.  I had never heard of him.  If I get a chance later today I'll try to read some of his work online.  Right now I've got to go do something so I'm cutting this short.  

 

 

 

 

 


BobSpence
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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 

Bob,

Your whole post is a concise summary of your disdain for and lack of understanding of the God Breathed Scripture and the God Who Inspired It.   

So again, why don't you instead describe your atheistic "wonders of life", your "feelings" of having some insight into the marvels of life, and yes the universe and everything, its origin (that you think you might possibly have reason to believe in anyway), and some of the revelations of the "wonderful" Douglas Adams (why you have put your faith in him specifically and how he has come to live rent free in your head).   

Don't worry I can't help you.  But what is this wonderful atheist mystery that you have still as yet hidden and have yet to reveal?    

There is NO 'wonderful atheist mystery'. As I keep trying to explain, my outlook is NOT structured as some second-rate version of how you approach life. It is quite different. My Atheism is simply a assertion that I do not believe in the existence of any gods, or any other supernatural beings, for that matter. The origin, at least the theory most widely accepted (in Science, of course), is The Big Bang Theory, which even you may have heard about. Like any theory in Science, it is not a matter of belief in the sense in which you 'believe' in God and Jesus etc., but just a matter of acceptance that it best fits the totality of current observations, according to those people who study the relevant Science, as reported in current scientific publications. From the Wikipedia entry on Douglas Adams:

" was an English writer, humorist, and dramatist.

Adams is best known as the author of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which originated in 1978 as a BBC radio comedy before developing into a "trilogy" of five books that sold more than 15 million copies in his lifetime and generated a television series, several stage plays, comics, a computer game, and in 2005 a feature film. Adams's contribution to UK radio is commemorated in The Radio Academy's Hall of Fame."

I enjoyed his writings immensely, and heard him speak at an Apple Computer World-Wide Developer's Convention in San Jose, California, and got to meet him briefly after his talk. Richard Dawkins dedicated his book 'The God Delusion' to Adams, and quotes from one of Adams' books "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" As you should have gathered by now, he was,  in his own words, a "radical atheist". I think he would have laughed at the idea of anyone "putting their faith in him". He was also an envirionmental activist and produced a radio documentary and book "Last Chance to See" which was about many endangered species.

I should mention that I watched a quite interesting documentary on National Geographic channel tonight entitled "Secret Lives of the Apostles", in which several Academics, including Bart Ehrman, an American New Testament scholar, attempted to piece together the the history of the Apostles from all avaiable sources, including the Bible. I found it interesting and informative because they took a serious objective approach in assessing what might have actually happened at various points in the narrative of the crucifiction and claimed resurrection, admitting that in some cases we didn't have enough evidence to explain the story, and in other cases where it was more clearly not true. It certainly helped give me a better understanding of the origins of a rather important part of the Christian story.

Hope this helps give you a better understanding of where I am coming from.

So do you accept the scriptural support for slavery and the tratment of women?

 

Bob,

There was a paid-for lie (they paid the soldiers to say someone stole the body) when Jesus rose from the dead - maybe a forerunner of your documentary.  You can tell it or hear it however you want I'll give you that - if you go to man.

The Mosaic Law you quoted from had those laws about slavery - and yes I accept that it was the Law at the time.  Also say a slave wanted to stay with the master - he went through a ceremony at the door having an awl pierced through his ear.  The Law was upheld - and fulfilled by Jesus' Life and Death (as the Lamb of God), also the prophecies were fulfilled and the temple worship and ceremony was done away with.  Now Jesus is High Priest, we are all priests (we can each go to God ourselves one on one - not through a priest) and the Law of God is written on our hearts (you have to understand this doesn't mean direct revelation).   

When Jesus died the curtain (I understand it was about 4 inches thick) was torn from top to bottom signifying the Holy of Holies was now open.  We can each go to God through Christ.  The curtain signified His Flesh - torn for us.  Jesus didn't legislate new political laws concerning slavery but His Principles would tell the slave to serve whole heartedly (as serving God) and the master to be considerate (since he also has a Master in heaven.  An example of that is found in Obadiah.  

Ok it sounds like you are more than a casual fan of Douglas Adams.  I had never heard of him.  If I get a chance later today I'll try to read some of his work online.  Right now I've got to go do something so I'm cutting this short.  

  

So my question is, was God ok with those laws? It would certainly seem so. Then it became not so ok after Christ. So morality changed with Christ? God changed His mind?? Seems much more likely that we are simply seeing progress in human culture - morality is not handed down from a God, it arises from our instincts and empathy, which is 'explained' in Biblical terms as being 'written on our hearts', and then the rules become attributed to whatever is the 'official' source of such rules, namely the God, or whatever is the equivalent in the particular culture, whether Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever.

You seem to be assuming that the speakers in that documentary were not believing Chriistians, and/or had some purpose to cast doubt on the Christian version of the story. But they definitely included people (such as Bart Ehrman, who I mentioned, who was educated at Princeton Theological Seminary and Moody Bible Institute) who were inlikely to have such an attitude. These were people concerned with getting as close to the truth as they could, being aware of how human writings can be mistaken or in error, even when intended as recording the facts as they saw them, IOW, not consciously lying.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


zarathustra
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It was still quite easy...

Quote:
So my question is, was God ok with those laws? It would certainly seem so. Then it became not so ok after Christ. So morality changed with Christ? God changed His mind?? Seems much more likely that we are simply seeing progress in human culture - morality is not handed down from a God, it arises from our instincts and empathy, which is 'explained' in Biblical terms as being 'written on our hearts', and then the rules become attributed to whatever is the 'official' source of such rules, namely the God, or whatever is the equivalent in the particular culture, whether Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever.
god wrote the laws, so god is free to re-write them, especially if he pays for the re-writing with the sacrifice of his own Son.  The progress you see in human culture is from the spreading of the gospel.

Quote:
You seem to be assuming that the speakers in that documentary were not believing Chriistians, and/or had some purpose to cast doubt on the Christian version of the story. But they definitely included people (such as Bart Ehrman, who I mentioned, who was educated at Princeton Theological Seminary and Moody Bible Institute) who were inlikely to have such an attitude. These were people concerned with getting as close to the truth as they could, being aware of how human writings can be mistaken or in error, even when intended as recording the facts as they saw them, IOW, not consciously lying.
jesus said there would be those who would mock the scripture, and try to lead his sheep astray.  They are simply modern-day Pharisees.  Of course humans can be mistaken and in error (as are the speakers in the documentary), but not so the perfect Word of god.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Fonzie
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PUSH POLL FROM DOWN UNDER

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 

Bob,

Your whole post is a concise summary of your disdain for and lack of understanding of the God Breathed Scripture and the God Who Inspired It.   

So again, why don't you instead describe your atheistic "wonders of life", your "feelings" of having some insight into the marvels of life, and yes the universe and everything, its origin (that you think you might possibly have reason to believe in anyway), and some of the revelations of the "wonderful" Douglas Adams (why you have put your faith in him specifically and how he has come to live rent free in your head).   

Don't worry I can't help you.  But what is this wonderful atheist mystery that you have still as yet hidden and have yet to reveal?    

There is NO 'wonderful atheist mystery'. As I keep trying to explain, my outlook is NOT structured as some second-rate version of how you approach life. It is quite different. My Atheism is simply a assertion that I do not believe in the existence of any gods, or any other supernatural beings, for that matter. The origin, at least the theory most widely accepted (in Science, of course), is The Big Bang Theory, which even you may have heard about. Like any theory in Science, it is not a matter of belief in the sense in which you 'believe' in God and Jesus etc., but just a matter of acceptance that it best fits the totality of current observations, according to those people who study the relevant Science, as reported in current scientific publications. From the Wikipedia entry on Douglas Adams:

" was an English writer, humorist, and dramatist.

Adams is best known as the author of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which originated in 1978 as a BBC radio comedy before developing into a "trilogy" of five books that sold more than 15 million copies in his lifetime and generated a television series, several stage plays, comics, a computer game, and in 2005 a feature film. Adams's contribution to UK radio is commemorated in The Radio Academy's Hall of Fame."

I enjoyed his writings immensely, and heard him speak at an Apple Computer World-Wide Developer's Convention in San Jose, California, and got to meet him briefly after his talk. Richard Dawkins dedicated his book 'The God Delusion' to Adams, and quotes from one of Adams' books "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" As you should have gathered by now, he was,  in his own words, a "radical atheist". I think he would have laughed at the idea of anyone "putting their faith in him". He was also an envirionmental activist and produced a radio documentary and book "Last Chance to See" which was about many endangered species.

I should mention that I watched a quite interesting documentary on National Geographic channel tonight entitled "Secret Lives of the Apostles", in which several Academics, including Bart Ehrman, an American New Testament scholar, attempted to piece together the the history of the Apostles from all avaiable sources, including the Bible. I found it interesting and informative because they took a serious objective approach in assessing what might have actually happened at various points in the narrative of the crucifiction and claimed resurrection, admitting that in some cases we didn't have enough evidence to explain the story, and in other cases where it was more clearly not true. It certainly helped give me a better understanding of the origins of a rather important part of the Christian story.

Hope this helps give you a better understanding of where I am coming from.

So do you accept the scriptural support for slavery and the tratment of women?

 

Bob,

There was a paid-for lie (they paid the soldiers to say someone stole the body) when Jesus rose from the dead - maybe a forerunner of your documentary.  You can tell it or hear it however you want I'll give you that - if you go to man.

The Mosaic Law you quoted from had those laws about slavery - and yes I accept that it was the Law at the time.  Also say a slave wanted to stay with the master - he went through a ceremony at the door having an awl pierced through his ear.  The Law was upheld - and fulfilled by Jesus' Life and Death (as the Lamb of God), also the prophecies were fulfilled and the temple worship and ceremony was done away with.  Now Jesus is High Priest, we are all priests (we can each go to God ourselves one on one - not through a priest) and the Law of God is written on our hearts (you have to understand this doesn't mean direct revelation).   

When Jesus died the curtain (I understand it was about 4 inches thick) was torn from top to bottom signifying the Holy of Holies was now open.  We can each go to God through Christ.  The curtain signified His Flesh - torn for us.  Jesus didn't legislate new political laws concerning slavery but His Principles would tell the slave to serve whole heartedly (as serving God) and the master to be considerate (since he also has a Master in heaven.  An example of that is found in Obadiah.  

Ok it sounds like you are more than a casual fan of Douglas Adams.  I had never heard of him.  If I get a chance later today I'll try to read some of his work online.  Right now I've got to go do something so I'm cutting this short.  

  

So my question is, was God ok with those laws? It would certainly seem so. Then it became not so ok after Christ. So morality changed with Christ? God changed His mind?? Seems much more likely that we are simply seeing progress in human culture - morality is not handed down from a God, it arises from our instincts and empathy, which is 'explained' in Biblical terms as being 'written on our hearts', and then the rules become attributed to whatever is the 'official' source of such rules, namely the God, or whatever is the equivalent in the particular culture, whether Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever.

You seem to be assuming that the speakers in that documentary were not believing Chriistians, and/or had some purpose to cast doubt on the Christian version of the story. But they definitely included people (such as Bart Ehrman, who I mentioned, who was educated at Princeton Theological Seminary and Moody Bible Institute) who were inlikely to have such an attitude. These were people concerned with getting as close to the truth as they could, being aware of how human writings can be mistaken or in error, even when intended as recording the facts as they saw them, IOW, not consciously lying.

 

 

 

 

Bob,

Well, ok you found a documentary I haven't seen and I don't know what you're talking about.  My comment was you can find all kinds of mistaken views of the Bible (and I know some of them would catch your interest).   

Did you know that Paul warned about perversions of the truth; for example there are those who came along and said, "let's sin more so grace can abound"- now what would the purpose have been behind that?  There are those who wanted to mix the old law (such as circumcision) in with the Gospel of Christ (put new wine into old wineskins) to make themselves relevant.  There are those who will think they are religious because of their list of righteousness and despise others.     

There were the Pharisees who fooled themselves thinking God was their Father but Jesus told them they were whitewashed tombs, hypocrites, and in reality their father was the devil (that would be the devil which you also don't believe in but maybe could find a documentary on that would support your view).   

Now if you had ask these Pharisees if they were concerned with getting as close to the truth as they could (like your documentary makers) - such as tithing mint and cummin,  straining gnats and swallowing camels and so on (if they didn't stone you first) they would have claimed they were in the driver's seat on that and would have seemed like prime research material to you Bob for hypocritical research.  I know you're trying to prove the Bible is wrong or inconsistent or SOMETHING rather than the Living Word of God and understanding what it's saying - and how far do you honestly think you'll get with that purpose?  You're going to find what you're looking for.  If you decide you want to go through the Door and search for truth like treasure that's a different thing.  

And as far as God changing His Mind - no - God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  The Law was fulfilled in Christ and now we are servants of Christ, walking by faith in Him and not under the old law, plus we have the Gift of the Holy Spirit which enables us to walk with God and Christ in faith.   We have new wineskins for the new wine of Life in Christ. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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 Yes, we can find all kinds

 Yes, we can find all kinds of different views of the Bible, as with anything else. And for sure some of them, maybe all of them at times, may be mistaken to a greater or lesser degree. My question then is, how do you know which are most accurate? I must admit I am more inclined to go with someone who has studied the Bible seriously for a long time than someone just going on his feelings or which one matches his personal beliefs. If you want to make serious comments on the program, please watch it first. If you can't get to watch it, That's ok, but you will not be in a position to honestly comment on it until you have. Do a Google search for "SECRET LIVES OF THE APOSTLES" and you should find some options for viewing it.

I found it interesting precisely because the commentators seemed to take the story seriously, including all the accounts of miracles, but were honestly pointing out when , mainly due to the great passage of time, we could not be sure exactly what happened. IOW, this was part of a serious and honest search for the truth, which I will always look st seriously and carefully, even if it looks like that truth may not align with my current beliefs/assumptions.

You are really dodging the question on the changes - if something was once ok and now is not, either God changed his mind or the rules of what is right and wrong are not dictated by God. You can't have it both ways.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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It was still quite easy...

Quote:
Yes, we can find all kinds of different views of the Bible, as with anything else. And for sure some of them, maybe all of them at times, may be mistaken to a greater or lesser degree. My question then is, how do you know which are most accurate?
The most accurate is the view that the bible is the eternal Word of god.  Any other view is false.

 

Quote:
I must admit I am more inclined to go with someone who has studied the Bible seriously for a long time than someone just going on his feelings or which one matches his personal beliefs.
As scripture tells us, we must become like a child to understand scripture.  No amount of study will make the Truth false.

 

Quote:
You are really dodging the question on the changes - if something was once ok and now is not, either God changed his mind or the rules of what is right and wrong are not dictated by God. You can't have it both ways.
god's laws are unchanging, but jesus fulfilled the old laws with his sacrifice and instituted the new laws.

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Of course study won't 'make

Of course study won't 'make the truth false'. But when the words can be interpreted in more than one way, and can be confused by the necessary process of translation, study may definitely be required to reveal what the words are saying, ie, what 'the truth' is.

Its quite simple - if there are 'new laws', that must mean the 'old laws ' no longer apply, therefore the laws have changed. So they cannot be eternal. period. Whatever you mean by 'fulfilled'.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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It was still quite easy...

Quote:
Of course study won't 'make the truth false'. But when the words can be interpreted in more than one way, and can be confused by the necessary process of translation, study may definitely be required to reveal what the words are saying, ie, what 'the truth' is.

jesus warned us there would be deceivers who will try to twist the Word, so when pharisees mis-interpret scripture, they are only fulfilling what was prophesied.  But only one interpretation is correct -- the one that points to god.

Quote:
Its quite simple - if there are 'new laws', that must mean the 'old laws ' no longer apply, therefore the laws have changed. So they cannot be eternal. period. Whatever you mean by 'fulfilled'.
What is like an age to us is but only a moment to god, so we are not fit to comment on what is eternal.  god's ways are not our ways.  It is not our place to understand god's law, but only to obey it.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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zarathustra wrote:It was

zarathustra wrote:

It was still quite easy...

Quote:
Of course study won't 'make the truth false'. But when the words can be interpreted in more than one way, and can be confused by the necessary process of translation, study may definitely be required to reveal what the words are saying, ie, what 'the truth' is.

jesus warned us there would be deceivers who will try to twist the Word, so when pharisees mis-interpret scripture, they are only fulfilling what was prophesied.  But only one interpretation is correct -- the one that points to god.

Quote:
Its quite simple - if there are 'new laws', that must mean the 'old laws ' no longer apply, therefore the laws have changed. So they cannot be eternal. period. Whatever you mean by 'fulfilled'.
What is like an age to us is but only a moment to god, so we are not fit to comment on what is eternal.  god's ways are not our ways.  It is not our place to understand god's law, but only to obey it.

There is no "twisting of the words", the comment about interpretation was addressing the very real problems of grasping the intended meaning of writings in an ancient language. There were no quotes of what the commentators thought the words were, so no basis for talking about 'mis-interpreting'.

God's ways certainly are not our ways, but that does not put him outside the Laws of Logic. If something HAS changed, it CANNOT be 'eternally unchanging'. Just one example of the confusing mess that is scripture. If you don't want to accept that simple observation, that does not make your view true.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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...still...easy...

Quote:
There is no "twisting of the words", the comment about interpretation was addressing the very real problems of grasping the intended meaning of writings in an ancient language. There were no quotes of what the commentators thought the words were, so no basis for talking about 'mis-interpreting'.
It is man's sinful nautre that twisted words and language (see Tower of Babel), and only the Word of god (correctly interpreted) can un-twist it.

Quote:
God's ways certainly are not our ways, but that does not put him outside the Laws of Logic. If something HAS changed, it CANNOT be 'eternally unchanging'. Just one example of the confusing mess that is scripture. If you don't want to accept that simple observation, that does not make your view true.
There cannot be laws without a law-giver.  Only god is above the law, not us.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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BobSpence
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zarathustra

zarathustra wrote:

...still...easy...

Quote:
There is no "twisting of the words", the comment about interpretation was addressing the very real problems of grasping the intended meaning of writings in an ancient language. There were no quotes of what the commentators thought the words were, so no basis for talking about 'mis-interpreting'.
It is man's sinful nautre that twisted words and language (see Tower of Babel), and only the Word of god (correctly interpreted) can un-twist it.

Quote:
God's ways certainly are not our ways, but that does not put him outside the Laws of Logic. If something HAS changed, it CANNOT be 'eternally unchanging'. Just one example of the confusing mess that is scripture. If you don't want to accept that simple observation, that does not make your view true.
There cannot be laws without a law-giver.  Only god is above the law, not us.

I repeat, nothing to do with 'twisting of the words', just the difficulties of reading and interpreting ancient documents, in other words, the effort required to make sure they are, in fact, 'correctly intertpreted'.

The "Laws of Logic" are not the kind of laws devised by a law-giver, they are rules that have been determined as necessary to avoid making fundamental logical errors. In any case no-one is claiming anyone is 'above the law', so this comment is nonsense. The problem of the contradiction in the document remains.

It is clearly not worth attempting to engage this person in any further discussion. They are far too lost in the God Delusion. Sorry.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION

BobSpence wrote:

 Yes, we can find all kinds of different views of the Bible, as with anything else. And for sure some of them, maybe all of them at times, may be mistaken to a greater or lesser degree. My question then is, how do you know which are most accurate? I must admit I am more inclined to go with someone who has studied the Bible seriously for a long time than someone just going on his feelings or which one matches his personal beliefs. If you want to make serious comments on the program, please watch it first. If you can't get to watch it, That's ok, but you will not be in a position to honestly comment on it until you have. Do a Google search for "SECRET LIVES OF THE APOSTLES" and you should find some options for viewing it.

I found it interesting precisely because the commentators seemed to take the story seriously, including all the accounts of miracles, but were honestly pointing out when , mainly due to the great passage of time, we could not be sure exactly what happened. IOW, this was part of a serious and honest search for the truth, which I will always look st seriously and carefully, even if it looks like that truth may not align with my current beliefs/assumptions.

You are really dodging the question on the changes - if something was once ok and now is not, either God changed his mind or the rules of what is right and wrong are not dictated by God. You can't have it both ways.

 

 

 

 

 

Bob,

I finally found 45 minutes to watch Secret Lives of the Apostles - National Geographic.  It was interesting.    

What is it exactly that I'm dodging?  I don't see any contradiction in the Bible or in God in the minutest detail.  You grab a couple of scriptures and think you've got a case on something you don't even believe, haven't applied, don't respect and are looking to discredit.  If you study the Bible a little it's with the fervent hope you can come up with a contradiction.  There is no contradiction.  

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:Bob,I finally

Fonzie wrote:

Bob,

I finally found 45 minutes to watch Secret Lives of the Apostles - National Geographic.  It was interesting.    

What is it exactly that I'm dodging?  I don't see any contradiction in the Bible or in God in the minutest detail.  You grab a couple of scriptures and think you've got a case on something you don't even believe, haven't applied, don't respect and are looking to discredit.  If you study the Bible a little it's with the fervent hope you can come up with a contradiction.  There is no contradiction.  

 

Glad you found the program interesting. I mainly wanted you to see that a program that I found interesting was not necessarily full of comments casting doubts on the Bible and its stories, which you seemed to assume.

The contradiction I was pointing out had nothing to do with that program; it was between two quotes from the Bible, which had laws about how to treat slaves being changed from what they originally were, which contradicts the idea that God's laws are 'eternal'. In trying find more clear examples of this contradiction I eventually realized there are so msny ways to read different parts of the Bible that it was not going to be worth the time and effort. So I should try and find more concrete examples of problematic passages that would be more difficult to 'explain' via the usual dodges.

The idea of punishment for 'sins' of your ancestors (original sin) is, to me, a nasty, immoral, idea, but probably seen as a way to 'explain' why bad things happen to people have not done anything that would justify such punishment. The worst example of such psychology I read about in some primitive Buddhist communities, where anyone born with a disability is assumed to have done something bad in a previous life ('karma'), which is then used to justify them being treated badly by other people. Not Christian, of course, but another example of how superstitions can be bad influences on people's behaviour. A very bad effect of the original sin idea is it embeds in our culture the idea that women deserve to be treated with less respect because of Eve's disobedience to God.

God does not interfere with our 'free will' - except when he does, such as 'hardening Pharoah's heart', or:

Or from 2 Thessalonians 2:11 New International Version (NIV)

'For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie'.
 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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DON'T DELUDE YOURSELF

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Bob,

I finally found 45 minutes to watch Secret Lives of the Apostles - National Geographic.  It was interesting.    

What is it exactly that I'm dodging?  I don't see any contradiction in the Bible or in God in the minutest detail.  You grab a couple of scriptures and think you've got a case on something you don't even believe, haven't applied, don't respect and are looking to discredit.  If you study the Bible a little it's with the fervent hope you can come up with a contradiction.  There is no contradiction.  

 

Glad you found the program interesting. I mainly wanted you to see that a program that I found interesting was not necessarily full of comments casting doubts on the Bible and its stories, which you seemed to assume.

The contradiction I was pointing out had nothing to do with that program; it was between two quotes from the Bible, which had laws about how to treat slaves being changed from what they originally were, which contradicts the idea that God's laws are 'eternal'. In trying find more clear examples of this contradiction I eventually realized there are so msny ways to read different parts of the Bible that it was not going to be worth the time and effort. So I should try and find more concrete examples of problematic passages that would be more difficult to 'explain' via the usual dodges.

The idea of punishment for 'sins' of your ancestors (original sin) is, to me, a nasty, immoral, idea, but probably seen as a way to 'explain' why bad things happen to people have not done anything that would justify such punishment. The worst example of such psychology I read about in some primitive Buddhist communities, where anyone born with a disability is assumed to have done something bad in a previous life ('karma'), which is then used to justify them being treated badly by other people. Not Christian, of course, but another example of how superstitions can be bad influences on people's behaviour. A very bad effect of the original sin idea is it embeds in our culture the idea that women deserve to be treated with less respect because of Eve's disobedience to God.

God does not interfere with our 'free will' - except when he does, such as 'hardening Pharoah's heart', or:

Or from 2 Thessalonians 2:11 New International Version (NIV)

'For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie'.
 

 

 

 

 

Bob,

The part of the "original sin" idea that I do get is that no man was able to live perfectly before God until Jesus.   We were born into a "fallen man" atmosphere.  

A question similiar to the one you are asking is The Scripture prophesy of Judas' betrayal of Jesus.  Did Judas still have free will?  Yes; God just knew ahead of time what he would do.  It's hard for us to comprehend that both are true - Judas had free will but God knew ahead of time what he would do.  

This type of question relates to an attitude toward Scripture and God; i.e., (paraphrased) "does the cup ask the potter, 'why did you make me this way?'"  

And Bob, I don't think you can make the "powerful delusion" defense concerning yourself.  It's kind of like choking yourself on a foot powered lathe.  You can do it, but you have to work at it.  Don't delude yourself.  

 

 

 


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I still find it indefensible

I still find it indefensible to punish anyone for the sins of their ancestors. So I find the concept of 'original sin' a poor attempt to justify many of the nastier things God does to us or allows to happen.

I don't know what you are referring to about 'making the "powerful delusion" defence'. I am quite sure I was not trying to do anything like what you are saying. I was just pointing out a Bible passage which describes God 'sending someone a powerful delusion' which seems to be a clear case of God overriding their free will, something he is supposed to be reluctant to do even to stop them from causing someone serious harm.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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It was still quite easy to duplicate the Troll's fluff...

Quote:
I still find it indefensible to punish anyone for the sins of their ancestors. So I find the concept of 'original sin' a poor attempt to justify many of the nastier things God does to us or allows to happen.
god sent his own son to save us from our own sins and the sins of our ancestors.  god offers us 'original salvation' from 'original sin'.

 

Quote:
I don't know what you are referring to about 'making the "powerful delusion" defence'. I am quite sure I was not trying to do anything like what you are saying. I was just pointing out a Bible passage which describes God 'sending someone a powerful delusion' which seems to be a clear case of God overriding their free will, something he is supposed to be reluctant to do even to stop them from causing someone serious harm.
It is not our place to judge how god's plan.  We can only put our trust in god and know it is for the best. his ways are not our ways.  

And thank you for not bringing up slavery agian.

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THE AUSTRALIAN DELUSION

BobSpence wrote:

I still find it indefensible to punish anyone for the sins of their ancestors. So I find the concept of 'original sin' a poor attempt to justify many of the nastier things God does to us or allows to happen.

I don't know what you are referring to about 'making the "powerful delusion" defence'. I am quite sure I was not trying to do anything like what you are saying. I was just pointing out a Bible passage which describes God 'sending someone a powerful delusion' which seems to be a clear case of God overriding their free will, something he is supposed to be reluctant to do even to stop them from causing someone serious harm.

 

 

 

 

 

Bob,

I don't know where you come up with God overpowering free will or punishing someone for the sins of their ancestors - maybe you've been watching movies or reading doctrines  men have come up with; or, you "find" what you "guess" about the God you don't believe in to be the thing to put your faith in - rather than what the God you don't believe said in His Word which you also don't believe and don't really want to search to find out?  

"What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, "The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge'?  As I Live says the LORD GOD this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.  Behold all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine; the soul that sins shall die." (Ezekiel)

You can't claim God has sent a 'powerful delusion' that is keeping you from being able to understand the Word of God - unless you yourself are the delusion.  Maybe you're distracting yourself... 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

I still find it indefensible to punish anyone for the sins of their ancestors. So I find the concept of 'original sin' a poor attempt to justify many of the nastier things God does to us or allows to happen.

I don't know what you are referring to about 'making the "powerful delusion" defence'. I am quite sure I was not trying to do anything like what you are saying. I was just pointing out a Bible passage which describes God 'sending someone a powerful delusion' which seems to be a clear case of God overriding their free will, something he is supposed to be reluctant to do even to stop them from causing someone serious harm.

 

 Bob,

I don't know where you come up with God overpowering free will or punishing someone for the sins of their ancestors - maybe you've been watching movies or reading doctrines  men have come up with; or, you "find" what you "guess" about the God you don't believe in to be the thing to put your faith in - rather than what the God you don't believe said in His Word which you also don't believe and don't really want to search to find out?  

"What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, "The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge'?  As I Live says the LORD GOD this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.  Behold all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine; the soul that sins shall die." (Ezekiel)

You can't claim God has sent a 'powerful delusion' that is keeping you from being able to understand the Word of God - unless you yourself are the delusion.  Maybe you're distracting yourself... 

I certainly do NOT claim that God is sending ME a 'powerful delusion'.

I 'came up with' the idea of 'God overpowering free will' from the Bible quote I gave previously:

Thessalonians 2:11 New International Version (NIV)

'For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie'.

which seems to have God blocking someone from the freedom to judge the truth of some story. That seems pretty close to 'overpowering' their free will. I also have referred to the more well-known words in which God 'hardens Pharoah's heart' so he would refuse Moses' demand to 'let my people go'.

Regarding punishing people for the sins of their ancestors, that is one common interpretation of the implications of God's response to 'original sin'. However, I will let that one go because in doing a bit more research I see that that interpretation is not universal in Christian doctrine.

I have recently obtained two new books:

"Has Science Found God? The Latest Results in the Search for Purpose in the Universe" by the late Victor Stenger, in which he addresses the claimed recent trend for significant groups of scientists and theologians to come together under the view that 'science and theology are converging'. 

"A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing" by Laurence Kraus.

I have only just recently started reading these books, so I won't comment until I have got a bit further into them.

Once again, I wish to acknowledge that some of your comments have motivated me to research a little deeper. A basic requirement of serious rational/scientific research is to continually challenge your ideas, which you have helped me do.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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THE SEEDS WE SOW

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

I still find it indefensible to punish anyone for the sins of their ancestors. So I find the concept of 'original sin' a poor attempt to justify many of the nastier things God does to us or allows to happen.

I don't know what you are referring to about 'making the "powerful delusion" defence'. I am quite sure I was not trying to do anything like what you are saying. I was just pointing out a Bible passage which describes God 'sending someone a powerful delusion' which seems to be a clear case of God overriding their free will, something he is supposed to be reluctant to do even to stop them from causing someone serious harm.

 

 Bob,

I don't know where you come up with God overpowering free will or punishing someone for the sins of their ancestors - maybe you've been watching movies or reading doctrines  men have come up with; or, you "find" what you "guess" about the God you don't believe in to be the thing to put your faith in - rather than what the God you don't believe said in His Word which you also don't believe and don't really want to search to find out?  

"What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, "The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge'?  As I Live says the LORD GOD this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.  Behold all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine; the soul that sins shall die." (Ezekiel)

You can't claim God has sent a 'powerful delusion' that is keeping you from being able to understand the Word of God - unless you yourself are the delusion.  Maybe you're distracting yourself... 

I certainly do NOT claim that God is sending ME a 'powerful delusion'.

I 'came up with' the idea of 'God overpowering free will' from the Bible quote I gave previously:

Thessalonians 2:11 New International Version (NIV)

'For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie'.

which seems to have God blocking someone from the freedom to judge the truth of some story. That seems pretty close to 'overpowering' their free will. I also have referred to the more well-known words in which God 'hardens Pharoah's heart' so he would refuse Moses' demand to 'let my people go'.

Regarding punishing people for the sins of their ancestors, that is one common interpretation of the implications of God's response to 'original sin'. However, I will let that one go because in doing a bit more research I see that that interpretation is not universal in Christian doctrine.

I have recently obtained two new books:

"Has Science Found God? The Latest Results in the Search for Purpose in the Universe" by the late Victor Stenger, in which he addresses the claimed recent trend for significant groups of scientists and theologians to come together under the view that 'science and theology are converging'. 

"A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing" by Laurence Kraus.

I have only just recently started reading these books, so I won't comment until I have got a bit further into them.

Once again, I wish to acknowledge that some of your comments have motivated me to research a little deeper. A basic requirement of serious rational/scientific research is to continually challenge your ideas, which you have helped me do.

 

 

Bob,

"For this reason" God sent a powerful delusion  (look at the reason - they've already refused to love the Truth and so be saved).    

My personal understanding of what "hardens the heart" is to see something you should do or believe and refuse to do it.  After you do this a few times it's a "use it or lose it" example.

John N Clayton has a series of videos - "DOES GOD EXIST"   He's a former atheist and a scientist I think.  I've only watched one.

The Word of God is like seeds - we don't know how they grow, that's not our part.  Our part is to take them in deep (for example like the words of a whisperer - which like delicious morsels go down deep into the body) and meditate on them, cultivate, think about them.  God makes them grow.  We don't know how the life in seed corn makes it grow - that's not the farmer's part in the equation.  His part is to plant, fertilize, etc.  If we are prejudiced - that interferes with hearing.  You can hear and not hear (distract yourself) and the seed of the Word of God doesn't even get planted.   If farmers stopped planting there wouldn't be a harvest. 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote: Bob,I don't

Fonzie wrote:

Bob,

"For this reason" God sent a powerful delusion  (look at the reason - they've already refused to love the Truth and so be saved).    

My personal understanding of what "hardens the heart" is to see something you should do or believe and refuse to do it.  After you do this a few times it's a "use it or lose it" example.

John N Clayton has a series of videos - "DOES GOD EXIST"   He's a former atheist and a scientist I think.  I've only watched one.

The Word of God is like seeds - we don't know how they grow, that's not our part.  Our part is to take them in deep (for example like the words of a whisperer - which like delicious morsels go down deep into the body) and meditate on them, cultivate, think about them.  God makes them grow.  We don't know how the life in seed corn makes it grow - that's not the farmer's part in the equation.  His part is to plant, fertilize, etc.  If we are prejudiced - that interferes with hearing.  You can hear and not hear (distract yourself) and the seed of the Word of God doesn't even get planted.   If farmers stopped planting there wouldn't be a harvest. 

 

I expected you would respond like that about why God sent a powerful delusion, and I agree it gives some justification. God will block a person's 'free will' when it suits him.

But the 'hardening the heart' I referred to was specifically referring to what the Bible says God did to Pharoah in Egypt, nothing to do with some personal understanding you might have.

Your strong personal assumptions about 'the Word of God' certainly interferes with your hearing - you seem to 'hear' what you expect or want to hear.

I will look up John N Clayton and see what he has to say.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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EXPECTING ARE WE?

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Bob,

"For this reason" God sent a powerful delusion  (look at the reason - they've already refused to love the Truth and so be saved).    

My personal understanding of what "hardens the heart" is to see something you should do or believe and refuse to do it.  After you do this a few times it's a "use it or lose it" example.

John N Clayton has a series of videos - "DOES GOD EXIST"   He's a former atheist and a scientist I think.  I've only watched one.

The Word of God is like seeds - we don't know how they grow, that's not our part.  Our part is to take them in deep (for example like the words of a whisperer - which like delicious morsels go down deep into the body) and meditate on them, cultivate, think about them.  God makes them grow.  We don't know how the life in seed corn makes it grow - that's not the farmer's part in the equation.  His part is to plant, fertilize, etc.  If we are prejudiced - that interferes with hearing.  You can hear and not hear (distract yourself) and the seed of the Word of God doesn't even get planted.   If farmers stopped planting there wouldn't be a harvest. 

 

I expected you would respond like that about why God sent a powerful delusion, and I agree it gives some justification. God will block a person's 'free will' when it suits him.

But the 'hardening the heart' I referred to was specifically referring to what the Bible says God did to Pharoah in Egypt, nothing to do with some personal understanding you might have.

Your strong personal assumptions about 'the Word of God' certainly interferes with your hearing - you seem to 'hear' what you expect or want to hear.

I will look up John N Clayton and see what he has to say.

 

 

Bob,

Expectations go both ways.  "Today when you hear His voice do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.  Who were they that heard and yet were rebellious?  Was it not all those who left Egypt under the leadership of Moses?  And with whom was He provoked forty years?  Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?  And to whom did He swear that they should never enter His rest but to those who were disobedient?  So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief."

It's not an intellectual problem Bob.  You can see maybe 100 feet in clear Lake Superior water - but you can't see a cow track in a mud puddle in the middle of the road.  

If you call "love of God", "fear of God", "Jesus is Truth", "God is Faithful and Just", "God is Perfect", Scripture is All True, Jesus is Alive, Jesus lived Perfectly in every way, etc., etc., strong assumptions - yes I have strong confirmed well - tested assumptions that might approach faith even.  

And yes you're definitely right - "God dwells in the Heavens and does what He pleases" - and what He pleases is Eternally Exactly Right.  

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 

Bob,

Expectations go both ways.  "Today when you hear His voice do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.  Who were they that heard and yet were rebellious?  Was it not all those who left Egypt under the leadership of Moses?  And with whom was He provoked forty years?  Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?  And to whom did He swear that they should never enter His rest but to those who were disobedient?  So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief."

It's not an intellectual problem Bob.  You can see maybe 100 feet in clear Lake Superior water - but you can't see a cow track in a mud puddle in the middle of the road.  

If you call "love of God", "fear of God", "Jesus is Truth", "God is Faithful and Just", "God is Perfect", Scripture is All True, Jesus is Alive, Jesus lived Perfectly in every way, etc., etc., strong assumptions - yes I have strong confirmed well - tested assumptions that might approach faith even.  

And yes you're definitely right - "God dwells in the Heavens and does what He pleases" - and what He pleases is Eternally Exactly Right.  

 

Ok Fonzie. I have found a site which recognizes these difficult issues, such as "God  hardening Pharoah's heart" and makes a serious attempt to clarify them, from a Christian point of view. Which is what I have been trying to learn from you, unsuccessfully in this case. Here is link so you can see for yourself:

www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/aiia-pharaoh.html

About John N Clayton, he does show some understanding of science, but nowhere deep enough or up-tp-date enough to make any serious, valid arguments for the existence of God. I may read some more of his articles, as part of my aim to better understand the various versions of the Christian mind-set.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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It was still quite easy...

Quote:
Ok Fonzie. I have found a site which recognizes these difficult issues, such as "God  hardening Pharoah's heart" and makes a serious attempt to clarify them, from a Christian point of view. Which is what I have been trying to learn from you, unsuccessfully in this case.
If you first accept the christian view as true, these issues cease to be difficult.  You can learn everything directly from god, as long as you make yourself willing.

Quote:
About John N Clayton, he does show some understanding of science, but nowhere deep enough or up-tp-date enough to make any serious, valid arguments for the existence of God.
What is most important is to have an up-to-date understanding of christ, and the science will follow.

There are no theists on operating tables.

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Correcting the Christard - again

You have it backwards in both comments.

Those issues only come up as 'difficulties' when you try to understand the 'Christian view', because that 'view' is based on very shaky presuppositions that it is true, not on solid evidence that it is true. Otherwise they are irrelevant.

About Science -  first get your Science sorted out, ie, get your facts straight, then see if the Bible makes sense, if you still feel the need.

Check that out with Galileo.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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 This is the longest

 This is the longest running thread with a theist on this website (of all time).  Do we have a badge for that?


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 This 'Fonzie' seems

 This 'Fonzie' seems determined to keep 'explaining' his faith and why 'it works for him'

He spends a lot of time gently mocking our failure to understand his faith, with responses which simultaneously demonstrate how little he understands our position, repeatedly making wildly inaccurate assumptions about where we are coming from.

I have found it an interesting exercise trying to refine my own understanding of such thinking, based on his comments, so I have tried to encourage him to explain himself, how he sees things.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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ATHEISTS' PUTTING ON AIRS

BobSpence wrote:

 This 'Fonzie' seems determined to keep 'explaining' his faith and why 'it works for him'

He spends a lot of time gently mocking our failure to understand his faith, with responses which simultaneously demonstrate how little he understands our position, repeatedly making wildly inaccurate assumptions about where we are coming from.

I have found it an interesting exercise trying to refine my own understanding of such thinking, based on his comments, so I have tried to encourage him to explain himself, how he sees things.

 

 

Bob,

"this Fonzie" - (Sapient) - "how little he understands our position" "interesting exercise" "trying to refine my own understanding" "so I have tried to encourage him to explain himself"  "how he sees things"

It's pretty obvious where you're coming from Bob.  These are arrogant condescending  terms and statements.  But you have displayed the same attitude toward God (Who you don't believe in) - rating God How He Does Things, how you could do them better.  Hey, I'm in good company.

You view yourself as having found "it" and I poor fool haven't (whatever "it" is - you've never really explained "it" except "it's" like not collecting stamps for a hobby).  You have "understanding" and just need to "refine" it.           well   

You're totally free to approach life with this arrogance - but being wise in your own eyes is not a good or real learning position (considering what there is to know) or even a good start.   You would be better off to become a fool so you could become wise.  And I'm ok with being less bright than you BTW Bob.  The battle's not to the strong or the race to the swift.  And I'm ready for you to lay it all out as to where you're coming from (other than doing a "study" on me) so I don't make wildly inaccurate assumptions about "it".

Nobody on this forum has ever laid "it" out.  Why not become the first.  Or both you and Sapient can team up to explain the joy and wonders of atheism to the hoy paloy.         

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:Nobody on this

Fonzie wrote:

Nobody on this forum has ever laid "it" out.  Why not become the first.  Or both you and Sapient can team up to explain the joy and wonders of atheism to the hoy paloy.    

   

 

    The "it" behind atheism is having the courage of facing reality as it actually exists, not as we wish it to be.   Reality doesn't always comfort or soothe our human fears  especially regarding life and death.  I prefer harsh reality ( aka, "truth" ) to comforting lies.  That is the "it" behind atheism.   Christianity ( and all religions ) are simply an emotional buffer for people too weak to deal with life face to face.   You can keep insisting how "happy happy happy" you are.   You do it for your own benefit, not ours.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  Oh, by the way, your

  Oh, by the way, your responses are so repetitive and formulaic that I can practically predict how you will respond.   Don't forget to quote some scripture and throw in some biblical threats.   Count down to Fonzie's next sermonette in 3 ...2....1


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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

 This 'Fonzie' seems determined to keep 'explaining' his faith and why 'it works for him'

He spends a lot of time gently mocking our failure to understand his faith, with responses which simultaneously demonstrate how little he understands our position, repeatedly making wildly inaccurate assumptions about where we are coming from.

I have found it an interesting exercise trying to refine my own understanding of such thinking, based on his comments, so I have tried to encourage him to explain himself, how he sees things.

 

 

Bob,

"this Fonzie" - (Sapient) - "how little he understands our position" "interesting exercise" "trying to refine my own understanding" "so I have tried to encourage him to explain himself"  "how he sees things"

It's pretty obvious where you're coming from Bob.  These are arrogant condescending  terms and statements.  But you have displayed the same attitude toward God (Who you don't believe in) - rating God How He Does Things, how you could do them better.  Hey, I'm in good company.

You view yourself as having found "it" and I poor fool haven't (whatever "it" is - you've never really explained "it" except "it's" like not collecting stamps for a hobby).  You have "understanding" and just need to "refine" it.           well   

You're totally free to approach life with this arrogance - but being wise in your own eyes is not a good or real learning position (considering what there is to know) or even a good start.   You would be better off to become a fool so you could become wise.  And I'm ok with being less bright than you BTW Bob.  The battle's not to the strong or the race to the swift.  And I'm ready for you to lay it all out as to where you're coming from (other than doing a "study" on me) so I don't make wildly inaccurate assumptions about "it".

Nobody on this forum has ever laid "it" out.  Why not become the first.  Or both you and Sapient can team up to explain the joy and wonders of atheism to the hoy paloy.          

Hi, Fonzie, I was beginning to worry you may have given up on us.

So you think I am being 'arrogant' when I simply point out the bleeding obvious that you don't understand the position of people like myself and Sapient? 

The only times the word "it" occurs in my response was as part of my quote of your phrase "it works for me" in your original post, and then in my comment where I start a sentence with "I have found it an interesting exercise", where 'it' simply refers to what I describe in the rest of the sentence, ie, my attempt to get a better understanding of how you think about these things, so the "it" you refer to must be from some other post. The "it" here is not referring to my understanding of reality or anything grander, just my understanding of you, Fonzie. Which of course is 'imperfect.' I guess that would include trying to understand how you think of 'God'. I don't have any particular personal idea of what is usually meant by that word, I just try to keep track of the vast range of ideas that the word 'God' can refer to in the the various religions I encounter.

This sort of mis-reading of my posts would help to explain why you consistently mis-understand what I am trying to say to you. Such as when you say "You view yourself as having found 'it' ", which is totally NOT how I view myself. What I do is keep trying to gain a more accurate understanding of many things, not really a single "it". That's what I meant by "refining".

It seems I need to spend even more time working out how to describe my point-of-view to you than I spend trying to understand yours.

I hope you actually understood some of what I have been trying to say here.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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It was still quite easy...

Quote:
The "it" behind atheism is having the courage of facing reality as it actually exists, not as we wish it to be.   Reality doesn't always comfort or soothe our human fears  especially regarding life and death.  I prefer harsh reality ( aka, "truth" ) to comforting lies.
We will all face the reality of god on the day of judgement.  It is your choice whether that reality is harsh or compassionate.  

Quote:
That is the "it" behind atheism.   Christianity ( and all religions ) are simply an emotional buffer for people too weak to deal with life face to face.
As it says in Matthew 26:41, "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak."  The atheists concentrate only on the flesh and deny the strenght of the holy spirit choose to be weak.

Quote:
You can keep insisting how "happy happy happy" you are.   You do it for your own benefit, not ours.
I do it for the greater glory of god, who died for all our benefit. 

There are no theists on operating tables.

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 "too weak to deal with

 "too weak to deal with life face to face IS referring to the mind, ie the 'spirit', NOT the 'flesh'. And it is the 'spirit' of the believer, NOT 'the Holy Spirit'. This person has very poor reading comprehension.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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MAKE A WISH AND CLICK YOUR CLICKER

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

  Oh, by the way, your responses are so repetitive and formulaic that I can practically predict how you will respond.   Don't forget to quote some scripture and throw in some biblical threats.   Count down to Fonzie's next sermonette in 3 ...2....1

 

 

PDW,

I guess you could characterize that as good (consistent) or bad (boring).  I'm going to use my formula to guess boring.  Actually I get bored easy too and never had what could be called a sustained hobby - not even stamps.  So I can see why you're bored with me being not bored with Jesus and God and the Bible.    

As far as you wanting some Bible Threats and Scriptures you can get Those with a couple of clicks as you well know.  And you might even find a new avatar that excites you.