It works for me!

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It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


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self esteem

jcgadfly wrote:

The fake praise you speak of never happened in my elementary and high school (1969-1982) so I really have no idea what you mean.

I've never heard it or knew anybody in education who did it. Do you have any articles discussing this? This would go far in making me believe you didn't pull this from you nether region.

To answer your question, people should be praised for their accomplishments. This does bring up a question, though.

Why do you lavish praise on your God for things you or others did? Wouldn't that qualify as fake praise to stroke God's ego?

 

 

 

JCGadfly,

No, the fake praise I'm talking about didn't happen when I was in school either ('50-'62), but I hear it is happening a lot in today's K-12 classrooms.  It's hearsay, but I'm told it's being done as a means of developing "self esteem".  I was just curious how you guys would regard such fake crap.

As far as your question about lavishing praise on God - it could be flattery, fake, trying to manipulate God, etc.  It's a matter of the heart and I don't aim for it to be that way with me.  I see God and Jesus as above any praise I could come up with.

The subject of "self esteem" intrigues me.  You have brought it up many times.  It's not something I have any regard for.  As I've mentioned to you before my esteem is in Christ and being in Him is extensive.  I just work here.

It seems the "self esteem" being propped  up with false praise would be an airy type, built on fresh air in other words, no substance.  A "self esteem" built on the things a person does is pretty shaky too - since it could easily have a selfish motive.  

What's your "self esteem" built on - or do you not have any regard for it? 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

The fake praise you speak of never happened in my elementary and high school (1969-1982) so I really have no idea what you mean.

I've never heard it or knew anybody in education who did it. Do you have any articles discussing this? This would go far in making me believe you didn't pull this from you nether region.

To answer your question, people should be praised for their accomplishments. This does bring up a question, though.

Why do you lavish praise on your God for things you or others did? Wouldn't that qualify as fake praise to stroke God's ego?

 

 

 

JCGadfly,

No, the fake praise I'm talking about didn't happen when I was in school either ('50-'62), but I hear it is happening a lot in today's K-12 classrooms.  It's hearsay, but I'm told it's being done as a means of developing "self esteem".  I was just curious how you guys would regard such fake crap.

As far as your question about lavishing praise on God - it could be flattery, fake, trying to manipulate God, etc.  It's a matter of the heart and I don't aim for it to be that way with me.  I see God and Jesus as above any praise I could come up with.

The subject of "self esteem" intrigues me.  You have brought it up many times.  It's not something I have any regard for.  As I've mentioned to you before my esteem is in Christ and being in Him is extensive.  I just work here.

It seems the "self esteem" being propped  up with false praise would be an airy type, built on fresh air in other words, no substance.  A "self esteem" built on the things a person does is pretty shaky too - since it could easily have a selfish motive.  

What's your "self esteem" built on - or do you not have any regard for it? 

 

 

 

So, since it's hearsay, neither of us should pay attention to it. I'd still be interested to know where you heard it. Just because Rush said it or you heard it on Fox News, CBN or TBN doesn't make it correct.

As for having a sense of self respect - as a Christian, I had none. Being told continually that you're nothing without God doesn't help build character - it wrecks it. Finding that what they were saying had roots in the book you thought was God's Word and still hearing about how God loves you even though he thinks your worthless no matter what you do in his name doesn't make God noble. It makes him a hypocrite. I practiced self mutilation as a Christian (God didn't really care - why should I?) Once I got out from under that load, I learned to appreciate my accomplishments for what they are and accept compliments for my efforts (couldn't do that as a Christian either - nothing I did was ever good enough). I'm still learning how to do this - it's easier when I don't have to worry about placating an unsatisfiable deity that humans created.

I ask again, If you're sick and go to the doctor for medicine who gets the credit when you get well? Do you appreciate the doctor's skills or give God glory even though he did nothing?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote:The subject of

Fonzie wrote:

The subject of "self esteem" intrigues me.  You have brought it up many times.  It's not something I have any regard for.

Right. So on top of not having any morals or empathy, you also have no self esteem. That kind of fits, I suppose. Do go on.


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Anonymouse wrote:Fonzie

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

The subject of "self esteem" intrigues me.  You have brought it up many times.  It's not something I have any regard for.

Right. So on top of not having any morals or empathy, you also have no self esteem. That kind of fits, I suppose. Do go on.

It makes sense in a strange way. Since Fonzie has his self-worth based on how well he follows the hypocrisies of the Bible, he needs to be vicious to others so he can impress his God.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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THE WORST DISEASE OF MAN

jcgadfly wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

The subject of "self esteem" intrigues me.  You have brought it up many times.  It's not something I have any regard for.

Right. So on top of not having any morals or empathy, you also have no self esteem. That kind of fits, I suppose. Do go on.

It makes sense in a strange way. Since Fonzie has his self-worth based on how well he follows the hypocrisies of the Bible, he needs to be vicious to others so he can impress his God.

 

 

 

You can rest assured that there is hardly anything that can happen to you worse than this disease:  that you trust in yourself instead of the God Who made you.

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

The subject of "self esteem" intrigues me.  You have brought it up many times.  It's not something I have any regard for.

Right. So on top of not having any morals or empathy, you also have no self esteem. That kind of fits, I suppose. Do go on.

It makes sense in a strange way. Since Fonzie has his self-worth based on how well he follows the hypocrisies of the Bible, he needs to be vicious to others so he can impress his God.

 

 

 

You can rest assured that there is hardly anything that can happen to you worse than this disease:  that you trust in yourself instead of the God Who made you.

 

 

 

And you can rest assured that threats and appeals to consequences still aren't effective in making your point.

Why base your self worth on a created being? You would be far more moral if you didn't follow his example.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote:You can rest

Fonzie wrote:

You can rest assured that there is hardly anything that can happen to you worse than this disease:  that you trust in yourself instead of the God Who made you.

So do you have any human emotion left in you ?


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EMOTIONS OF A GRUB

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

You can rest assured that there is hardly anything that can happen to you worse than this disease:  that you trust in yourself instead of the God Who made you.

So do you have any human emotion left in you ?

 

Anonymouse,

It's as you have noted, I am a despicable clod, a murderer (didn't Christ show us the spiritual nature of the law that "he who hates his brother is a murderer" ), and totally depraved - except for this:  God has bought and paid for me with the sacrifice of His Son, and from that my esteem is in HIm.  You remind me of how much I need God and Christ.  So does the Devil.   

 

There is this danger that I would get re-infected with this disease of trusting in myself in one of its many subtle forms.  But if by God's grace I am given the strength to be faithful I will continue in the Joys of Christ and His Victory.  He didn't do what He wanted to do or say what He wanted to say - He stayed on message with what God wanted.  He was faithful - that's what I want, to totally die to myself and live in Him.

 

You can try out sitting on the Throne if you want but know that you insult God in doing that.  Your folly will become obvious to all eventually.  God is not mocked. 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:Anonymouse

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

You can rest assured that there is hardly anything that can happen to you worse than this disease:  that you trust in yourself instead of the God Who made you.

So do you have any human emotion left in you ?

 

Anonymouse,

It's as you have noted, I am a despicable clod, a murderer (didn't Christ show us the spiritual nature of the law that "he who hates his brother is a murderer" ), and totally depraved - except for this:  God has bought and paid for me with the sacrifice of His Son, and from that my esteem is in HIm.  You remind me of how much I need God and Christ.  So does the Devil.   

 

There is this danger that I would get re-infected with this disease of trusting in myself in one of its many subtle forms.  But if by God's grace I am given the strength to be faithful I will continue in the Joys of Christ and His Victory.  He didn't do what He wanted to do or say what He wanted to say - He stayed on message with what God wanted.  He was faithful - that's what I want, to totally die to myself and live in Him.

 

You can try out sitting on the Throne if you want but know that you insult God in doing that.  Your folly will become obvious to all eventually.  God is not mocked. 

 

 

 

 

So your esteem is in a being who committed an act of murder (or suicide depending on how you position Jesus) to change rules that he made in the first place?

If you feel that you have to leap to God's defense by making threats for him, you are actually saying that you are stronger than he is. Talk about usurping the throne.

Actually, the creator defending his creation makes sense - I just don't know why you worship it as though it is above you.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote:Anonymouse,Hi

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse,

Hi !

Fonzie wrote:
It's as you have noted, I am a despicable clod, a murderer

Not a murderer yet, I should hope. Or did god just put out a contract on a few kiddies for you ? As for being a despicable clod, well, those are your words. If that's how you see yourself, or what you want to be, then there's nothing much I can do about that.

Fonzie wrote:
(didn't Christ show us the spiritual nature of the law that "he who hates his brother is a murderer" )

You mean you've started hating people now ? Okay. Have fun with that.

Fonzie wrote:
, and totally depraved

There I would have to agree with you, Fonzie. Taking joy from the prospect of murdering innocent people is depraved, no matter which way you look at it. I suggest you change your mind about that.

Fonzie wrote:
- except for this:  God has bought and paid for me with the sacrifice of His Son, and from that my esteem is in HIm.

What's the connection between that and you becoming a happy sadist ?

Fonzie wrote:
You remind me of how much I need God and Christ.

Maybe it's time to remind you that all your opinions are based on your personal interpretation of christianity, or to put it in your words : what works for you. All I did was confront you with the implications of that. Not my fault you didn't like it.

Fonzie wrote:
So does the Devil.

Actually, I should think the devil is pretty pleased with your sadism. 

Fonzie wrote:
There is this danger that I would get re-infected with this disease of trusting in myself

No worries. You're pretty far gone. (although, I have to admit, you're actually so far gone I'm beginning think you might just be pulling my leg)

Fonzie wrote:
in one of its many subtle forms.

Well, if you put it like that, you are trusting yourself to have stumbled upon the correct interpretation of christianity. Considering how many competing versions there are, that's not really a very subtle expression of your self-esteem, now is it ?

Fonzie wrote:
But if by God's grace I am given the strength to be faithful I will continue in the Joys of Christ and His Victory.

No matter who you end up having to kill ?

Fonzie wrote:
He didn't do what He wanted to do or say what He wanted to say - He stayed on message with what God wanted.  He was faithful - that's what I want, to totally die to myself and live in Him.

So basically, you get to do whatever you like, just as long as it fits with your interpretation of what god wants you to do ? You're accountable to no-one or anything, except your ideas about god ?

Fonzie wrote:
  You can try out sitting on the Throne if you want but know that you insult God in doing that.
 

Let's be fair, Fonzie. Who's been making claims about knowing what god wants ? Was it me, or was it you ? I'll help you out : It was you.

Fonzie wrote:
Your folly will become obvious to all eventually.
 

If me having a problem with sadistic, divinely inspired murders qualifies as "folly", then sure, bring on the folly.

Fonzie wrote:
God is not mocked.
 

Unless asking you questions is the same as "mocking god", then I did no such thing. Not my fault you didn't like your own answers. 

 

 

 

 


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 Anonymouse,It seemed like

 

Anonymouse,

It seemed like you enjoyed giving me however many lashes it was.  I have a speculative question for you: 

If it had been your job to give the Roman scourging to Jesus, would you have done it or taken it yourself?  If yes you would have scourged Jesus, would you have enjoyed it? 

 

 

 


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Fonzie

Fonzie wrote:

 Anonymouse,

'Sup ?

Fonzie wrote:
It seemed like you enjoyed giving me however many lashes it was.

"Lashes" ? I thought we were just talking. Please leave me out of your personal fantasies, ok ?

Fonzie wrote:
I have a speculative question for you: If it had been your job to give the Roman scourging to Jesus, would you have done it or taken it yourself?

"Taken it yourself" ? You're into masochism now too ?

Fonzie wrote:
If yes you would have scourged Jesus, would you have enjoyed it? 

I see we have a Mel Gibson fan here.

No, Fonzie. I would not have enjoyed it. Sorry.

I don't really understand why you're bringing this up, though. Maybe you didn't understand why I accused you of sadism ? If you thought that was unfair, you should have just said so. I'll explain : After admitting that you would kill innocent kids if god asked you too, you added "with god, anything is enjoyable". Now, if you would like to change that to "with god, anything is enjoyable, except murdering innocent kids", then I'll take back the sadism comment. Heck, I'll even apologise for it.


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Anonymouse wrote:No, Fonzie.

Anonymouse wrote:

No, Fonzie. I would not have enjoyed it. Sorry.

 

Hey Anonymouse,

That's good.  I'm no movie fan at all BTW. 

We have our youngest of 5 grandkids (he's 2) with us for a week or two.  Have any grandkids?  He's quite a pleasure to have around.  He's very mechanical - his parents put magnetic locks on the cabinets and he got a magnet off the refrigerator and tried to open. 

No I don't mind the mischaracterization of my statement of belief in propitiation - the Innocent Son of God dying for the guilty.  Jesus words were mischaracterized.  They even called Jesus a drunkard and a glutton and said that He had a demon.  So about anything you say doesn't surprise me.  Actually the statement I quoted above surprises me more. Certainly you are free to mischaracterize.  

 

Fonzie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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jcgadfly wrote:So your

jcgadfly wrote:

So your esteem is in a being who committed an act of murder (or suicide depending on how you position Jesus) to change rules that he made in the first place?


 

JCGadfly,

Jesus is my All in All, true.  The gospel being the solution set up by God you would do well to accept as the gift from God that it is.  You see how you might need to downsize pride to take an honest look at it.  The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.

Fonzie

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:Hey

Fonzie wrote:

Hey Anonymouse,

That's good.

Oh good.

Fonzie wrote:
  Have any grandkids?

Nope. I am one.

Fonzie wrote:
No I don't mind the mischaracterization of my statement of belief

Heh. You consider your own words a mischaracterization ?

Fonzie wrote:
in propitiation - the Innocent Son of God dying for the guilty.  Jesus words were mischaracterized.  They even called Jesus a drunkard and a glutton and said that He had a demon.

Did they now ? Not sure why you're mentioning that, since I didn't make any of those claims about you. As for "mischaracterizing" someone's words, can you maybe show me where exactly I did that ? If you can't do that, you're just mischaracterizing mine, aren'tcha ?

Fonzie wrote:
So about anything you say doesn't surprise me.

I should hope not, since I'm just repeating what you told me about yourself. Just rubbing your nose in some of the unpleasant consequences of your claims.

Fonzie wrote:
Actually the statement I quoted above surprises me more.

Someone not being a sadist surprises you ? Wow ! If it's pity you were after, you have it now.

Fonzie wrote:
Certainly you are free to mischaracterize.

And you are free to make unfounded accusations, I'm sure. How about you show me one of those mischaracterisations, eh ?  

Fonzie wrote:
Fonzie

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

So your esteem is in a being who committed an act of murder (or suicide depending on how you position Jesus) to change rules that he made in the first place?

 

 

JCGadfly,

Jesus is my All in All, true.

 

So that's a yes ?

 

 

Fonzie wrote:
The gospel being the solution set up by God you would do well to accept as the gift from God that it is.

 

And this statement is related to Jcg's question how exactly ?

 

Fonzie wrote:
  You see how you might need to downsize pride to take an honest look at it.

 

Fonzie, relax. He just asked you a question. What does that even have to do with pride ?

Anyway, if someone needs to downsize his pride, I'm afraid it's you. You're the guy who thinks his beliefs are true. That's beyond mere pride, my friend.

 

Fonzie wrote:
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.

There really is no need to shout. No need for threaths either.

 

Fonzie wrote:
Fonzie

Sorry for hijacking your fonzie-reply, JCG, I was bored.

 

 

 


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No worries.  You said what

No worries.  You said what I was going to say.

That and Fonzie just accepted his polytheism.

God is God to him. Jesus is also God to him. If he read his Bible as well as he claims, he'd notice the different messages they preached. Then when you throw in what Paul preached (which is closer to the Christianity he believes), he'd see a third message different from the others.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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 You know, there's

 You know, there's something horribly familiar about all this : The constant dodging, the biblical prose, the effortless and shameless dishonesty, the "god is gonna get ya !" threaths when he gets cornered,...

I think we might be recycling a very old piece of fruitcake, but just to be sure...

Fonzie, just humor me here : Are you by any chance a carpenter ? 

 


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Anonymouse - humor me for a

Anonymouse - humor me for a moment.  Why are you so difficult to talk to?  We can't have a conversation because all you do is rage and laugh.  What reason have I given you to mock and call me names? 


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Fonzie wrote:Anonymouse -

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse - humor me for a moment.  Why are you so difficult to talk to?  We can't have a conversation because all you do is rage and laugh.  What reason have I given you to mock and call me names? 

Again, I have no idea where you get "rage and laugh". And I already told you I have no interest in mocking you. If it's "a very old piece of fruitcake" you have a problem with, then read the whole sentence, notice the words "I think we might". That means I'm not entirely sure yet. 

Which is why I asked you that question. Which you just dodged. Big surprise.

And I'm not difficult to talk to, I'm difficult to lie to. All I do is answer your questions, all you do is run away from mine.  You dodged one question for many, many posts, but eventually you had to answer it. I'm getting the impression you didn't like that very much.

 

And now you're dodging a question about your profession ? Gee, I wonder why.

Let's try this again : Are you a carpenter ? (Yes, it's relevant)

 


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Fonzie wrote:Anonymouse -

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse - humor me for a moment.  Why are you so difficult to talk to?  We can't have a conversation because all you do is rage and laugh.  What reason have I given you to mock and call me names? 

Persecution complex much?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse - humor me for a moment.  Why are you so difficult to talk to?  We can't have a conversation because all you do is rage and laugh.  What reason have I given you to mock and call me names? 

Persecution complex much?

 

No, just no substance from your side to reply to. 

I have just been sharing the fact that though faith and fellowship with Christ has been given up on by several on this forum it gets brighter and brighter each day for me - and this is another day. 

You haven't given me anything to respond to concerning this - only mocking and name calling.  You are producing a vacuum in this discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse - humor me for a moment.  Why are you so difficult to talk to?  We can't have a conversation because all you do is rage and laugh.  What reason have I given you to mock and call me names? 

Persecution complex much?

 

No, just no substance from your side to reply to. 

I have just been sharing the fact that though faith and fellowship with Christ has been given up on by several on this forum it gets brighter and brighter each day for me - and this is another day. 

You haven't given me anything to respond to concerning this - only mocking and name calling.  You are producing a vacuum in this discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You've had plenty to respond to - you've elected to preach instead.

No one is mocking you - your ignorance and willful disregard of what people post, that's a valid target.

It works for you, cool. Many have tried it and it hasn't worked for them. Your response is that they weren't doing it right because they weren't doing it like you.

If you know Jesus as well as you claim, you'd be able to introduce him to us. Instead, you come off as "I'm better than you because my belief in Jesus makes me feel good."

Sometimes I wonder if you and God have ever met. You're not acting as he would (according to your own Scripture).

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:Persecution

jcgadfly wrote:
Persecution complex much?

Fonzie wrote:
No, just no substance from your side to reply to.

Some of us actually read Jcg's posts, Fonzie. Substance is something you completely ignore.

Fonzie wrote:
I have just been sharing the fact that though faith and fellowship with Christ has been given up on by several on this forum it gets brighter and brighter each day for me - and this is another day.
 

Actually, these last few posts you've been mostly dodging questions and whining about how mean we are. As annoying as that was, it was a welcome change from all the preaching, though.

Fonzie wrote:
You haven't given me anything to respond to concerning this

He has. You just haven't responded.

Fonzie wrote:
- only mocking and name calling.

See, there's the thing : It's not "mocking and name calling" if it's true. And you have yet to mention just exactly what you consider "mocking and name calling". Knowing you, it could be anything.

Fonzie wrote:
You are producing a vacuum in this discussion.

Nah, you're just getting frustrated cuz you're not wearing him down with your nonsense.

 

 

Btw, couldn't help but notice you avoided answering my question yet again. Going for a personal record ?

Here it is again : Are you a carpenter ?

I seem to have this nack for coming up with questions you run away from. I wonder what's so scary about this one....

 


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse - humor me for a moment.  Why are you so difficult to talk to?  We can't have a conversation because all you do is rage and laugh.  What reason have I given you to mock and call me names? 

Persecution complex much?

 

No, just no substance from your side to reply to. 

I have just been sharing the fact that though faith and fellowship with Christ has been given up on by several on this forum it gets brighter and brighter each day for me - and this is another day. 

You haven't given me anything to respond to concerning this - only mocking and name calling.  You are producing a vacuum in this discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You've had plenty to respond to - you've elected to preach instead.

No one is mocking you - your ignorance and willful disregard of what people post, that's a valid target.

It works for you, cool. Many have tried it and it hasn't worked for them. Your response is that they weren't doing it right because they weren't doing it like you.

If you know Jesus as well as you claim, you'd be able to introduce him to us. Instead, you come off as "I'm better than you because my belief in Jesus makes me feel good."

Sometimes I wonder if you and God have ever met. You're not acting as he would (according to your own Scripture).

 

 

JCG,

 

There's always that possibility of being off course true.  One thing I was preaching as you say is that there is a wilderness to persevere through before crossing over into full assurance in Christ.  It could be that some didn't persevere long enough to find it, thus they didn't. 

I don't view myself as better than you.  My relationship with God in Christ is a reflection on His qualities not mine.  I don't deserve any of it - but, dang if I don't have it!  I'm thankful for it.  I would like for it not to stop there, to be able to share Who is total joy for me (Christ) with everybody, but my efforts are another example of imperfection, easy to spot.  But the salvation I'm point to is perfect.  I'm vexed at not being able to get that across.  Passion about this can be characterized any way a person wants.  It is what it is though.

 

Fonzie


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Okay, so first there's this

Okay, so first there's this :

Fonzie wrote:
One thing I was preaching as you say is that there is a wilderness to persevere through before crossing over into full assurance in Christ.  It could be that some didn't persevere long enough to find it, thus they didn't.

And then there's this :

Fonzie wrote:
I don't view myself as better than you.

You don't ? I'm confused now. Didn't you persevere longer through the wilderness than those who didn't find christ ? If you're not better at persevering than they are, then how did you manage that ?

Fonzie wrote:
My relationship with God in Christ is a reflection on His qualities not mine.  I don't deserve any of it - but, dang if I don't have it!

Wait a sec, so you're saying you managed that because of god ? God made you persevere harder ? So why didn't he make the others persevere just as hard ?

Fonzie wrote:
I'm thankful for it.  I would like for it not to stop there, to be able to share Who is total joy for me (Christ) with everybody, but my efforts are another example of imperfection, easy to spot.

Well, then you should ask god to do for others what he did for you (since you don't credit yourself for that). If he did it for you, there's no reason why he shouldn't do it for others. Unless you're somehow better than others.

Fonzie wrote:
But the salvation I'm point to is perfect.

You sure ? I'm only asking cause you've only been pointing at yourself.

Fonzie wrote:
I'm vexed at not being able to get that across.

No need to be vexed. You've been getting yourself across just fine.

Fonzie wrote:
Passion about this can be characterized any way a person wants.

Or you could just go by facts.

Fonzie wrote:
It is what it is though.

Everything is what it is. Your point ? Yeah, that too.

 

Fonzie wrote:
Fonzie

Don't worry about all the questions, Fonzie. You can consider them all rethorical (or just ignore them as per usual), as long as you answer this one :

Are you a carpenter ?

 


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CAVILLER

 

 

Anonymouse,

 

It's not my job to untie the knots of skeptics - they just tie more.

I am just delivering the message of the gospel not disputing about it.  Believe in Jesus or die - that's an eternal fact. 

You want to know if my imitating Jesus goes so far as to imitate his trade - I suppose everybody thinks they know something about carpentry.  They will pretty much leave you alone with the electrical however.  I don't have people wanting to stick their nose in my electrical work.

I could take your posts line by line and easily make up a smart aleck remark.  I hope you don't think that's an accomplishment on your part. 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie

Fonzie wrote:

 

 

Anonymouse,

 

It's not my job to untie the knots of skeptics - they just tie more.

I am just delivering the message of the gospel not disputing about it.  Believe in Jesus or die - that's an eternal fact. 

You want to know if my imitating Jesus goes so far as to imitate his trade - I suppose everybody thinks they know something about carpentry.  They will pretty much leave you alone with the electrical however.  I don't have people wanting to stick their nose in my electrical work.

I could take your posts line by line and easily make up a smart aleck remark.  I hope you don't think that's an accomplishment on your part. 

 

 

 

 

How is untying the knots of your rhetoric tying more knots?

You are delivering the message of the Gospel, yes. It is neither eternal nor a fact.  Your God had a beginning in the minds of men just like the others.

You are also delivering the "I'm better than you" message that Jesus would never have delivered. You're not alone in this, either. Many Christians do that because they have a warped example of what Jesus would do.

As for dissecting posts, that would be better for you than ignoring posts as you insist on doing.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote:Anonymouse, Hi

Fonzie wrote:
Anonymouse,

Hi Meph !

Fonzie wrote:
It's not my job to untie the knots of skeptics - they just tie more.

Apparently, it's your job to dodge questions and take up as much bandwith as possible with non-sequiturs and bible prose.

Fonzie wrote:
I am just delivering the message of the gospel not disputing about it.

It's already been delivered. What you're doing is creating atheists.

Fonzie wrote:
Believe in Jesus or die - that's an eternal fact.

Moving on to death threaths now ? Okay, I guess that means we're making progress.

Fonzie wrote:
You want to know if my imitating Jesus goes so far as to imitate his trade - I suppose everybody thinks they know something about carpentry.  They will pretty much leave you alone with the electrical however.  I don't have people wanting to stick their nose in my electrical work.

Actually, I wanted to know if you'd been on this forum before, using another nick, and it turns out you have. I guess you were trying to get rid of that troll badge you worked so hard to earn. And I seem to remember the mods telling you that if you tried this a third time, it would be considered spamming. Counting the other two, this is your third thread.

Btw, can you tell me the title of your thread that got sent to trollville, so I can check ? I could probably find it, but it would be quicker if you just told me. The title was all in capitals, like this one, I remember that much.

Fonzie wrote:
I could take your posts line by line and easily make up a smart aleck remark.

You ignore questions, and when a point's been made, you just pretend it didn't happen, so what else am I supposed to do ? Anyway, you should be grateful I'm still reading all your lines. Nobody else wants to bother anymore (except for JCG, but his patience is legendary).

Fonzie wrote:
I hope you don't think that's an accomplishment on your part. 

Wouldn't dream of it, Meph. You make it way too easy anyway.

 

 

 


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1. This is Mephistopheles?

1. This is Mephistopheles? The posts seemed a little more coherent than before.

2. Well at least I know I'm not just a legend in my own mind. Smiling

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:1. This is

jcgadfly wrote:
1. This is Mephistopheles? The posts seemed a little more coherent than before.

I had to google-search this place for a lot of mephs before I found it, but here it is : http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/14302

It's got a link to his first thread in there. Oh, it's him, alright. I'm sure there's a second christian grandparent who wires houses somewhere, who's replies are always structured the exact same way, who doges questions for months and tries to confuse people with home-made bible prose, who never ventures outside his own thread, etc.....

...but for that second identical person to register only three months after the first one got his last warning ? Nah, that would be a bit too amazing.

jcgadfly wrote:
2. Well at least I know I'm not just a legend in my own mind. Smiling

Dude, you've been trying to talk sense to this guy for over three years now.


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Anonymouse wrote:jcgadfly

Anonymouse wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
1. This is Mephistopheles? The posts seemed a little more coherent than before.

I had to google-search this place for a lot of mephs before I found it, but here it is : http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/14302

It's got a link to his first thread in there. Oh, it's him, alright. I'm sure there's a second christian grandparent who wires houses somewhere, who's replies are always structured the exact same way, who doges questions for months and tries to confuse people with home-made bible prose, who never ventures outside his own thread, etc.....

...but for that second identical person to register only three months after the first one got his last warning ? Nah, that would be a bit too amazing.

jcgadfly wrote:
2. Well at least I know I'm not just a legend in my own mind. Smiling

Dude, you've been trying to talk sense to this guy for over three years now.

OH...Mephibosheth -too many mephs. It's been a while and I am old. Mephistopheles if you're still here I apologize.

Fonzie/Meph, I actually kind of like you. I just wish you'd look at what people have to say instead of dismissing it out of hand.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie/Meph,

jcgadfly wrote:
Fonzie/Meph, I actually kind of like you. I just wish you'd look at what people have to say instead of dismissing it out of hand.

That's why I left the other thread. I actually liked Meph, but got frustrated when he would not actually debate, but instead continued to quote platitudes and Bible versus as if that constituted the entirety of his intellectual acumen.

But, perhaps rational discussion is simply impossible with Meph & Fonzie. Open intellectual debate can be a frightening prospect for someone who has but one argument: I feel it, therefore it is true.

Anyway, Fonz, if you are Meph: howdy. Good to see you again. If you are not Meph: carry on.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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IT WORKS

 

NigelTheBold,

 

What gets you kicked off the atheist website?  Knowing what you believe?  Saying something works if you persevere and encouraging violent seriousness in a direction other than swirling in nothingness?  Is it challenge to insecure blindness? 

I invite the reader into the now of Christ Jesus.  Past paid for - future not feared, and present shared with Holy Spirit lighted communion with God and Christ and those in Christ.  

I'm saying it's great and it's going somewhere you would want to go if the god of this world hadn't blinded your eyes and put a triple guard defense to keep you from the gospel.  Christ is the image of God but Satan is the ape of God - he imitates and mocks God.  You are his victim - kept from the salvation of Christ, the abundant life, peace with God, eternal life starting now because knowing Christ IS eternal life.  For one thing, Christ is ONE you wouldn't be bored with for all eternity. 

 

Name me after a meth lab or whatever you want for inviting you to the Feast of Feasts.  It's still there - you just have to downsize your attitude and make Christ Lord of your life instead of yourself.

 

Fonzie

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie

Fonzie wrote:

 

NigelTheBold,

 

What gets you kicked off the atheist website?  Knowing what you believe?  Saying something works if you persevere and encouraging violent seriousness in a direction other than swirling in nothingness?  Is it challenge to insecure blindness? 

I invite the reader into the now of Christ Jesus.  Past paid for - future not feared, and present shared with Holy Spirit lighted communion with God and Christ and those in Christ.  

I'm saying it's great and it's going somewhere you would want to go if the god of this world hadn't blinded your eyes and put a triple guard defense to keep you from the gospel.  Christ is the image of God but Satan is the ape of God - he imitates and mocks God.  You are his victim - kept from the salvation of Christ, the abundant life, peace with God, eternal life starting now because knowing Christ IS eternal life.  For one thing, Christ is ONE you wouldn't be bored with for all eternity. 

 

Name me after a meth lab or whatever you want for inviting you to the Feast of Feasts.  It's still there - you just have to downsize your attitude and make Christ Lord of your life instead of yourself.

 

Fonzie

 

 

 

 

 

What gets you booted from the site? Not answering questions put to you and lying about the lack of substance put to you is a good start.

Saying that you're superior to others because you've stuck with your God longer than others without telling people why your God works for you except for the release of endorphins that I can get from chocolate is another good way.

You say it's great but when we ask why you don't tell us anything more than "it's great". Who are you trying to convince - us or you?

If you aren't the user who went by the name of mephibosheth and claim to know nothing about that biblical character - I have to question how much of this Bible you claim is so great you actually know.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote:What gets you

Fonzie wrote:
What gets you kicked off the atheist website?

Spamming. They already told you that. And be fair, not just atheist websites have a problem with spamming.

Anyhoo, meph, I've known for a while that it's you and it makes no difference to me. You won't get kicked off. As you can see, there were even people who liked you.

Fonzie wrote:
Name me after a meth lab...

I just want to know if you're honest, that's all.

You're a completely different guy ? You just happen to have the exact same job, the exact same number of grandchildren, and you just happen to talk about the exact same themes in exactly the same way ?

Now listen, I know how your mind works by now, so I don't want a smartalec answer using the word "exact" a lot, while dodging the question completely, I just want an honest answer. 

I just want to know if you're capable of that, that's all.

So, were you here before as meph, yes or no ?

Don't humor me now, just tell the truth about that.

Because if you can't, then how trustworthy is anything else you have to say ?

 

 

 

 

 


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SUBJECT

jcgadfly wrote:

What gets you booted from the site? Not answering questions put to you and lying about the lack of substance put to you is a good start.

Saying that you're superior to others because you've stuck with your God longer than others without telling people why your God works for you except for the release of endorphins that I can get from chocolate is another good way.

You say it's great but when we ask why you don't tell us anything more than "it's great". Who are you trying to convince - us or you?

If you aren't the user who went by the name of mephibosheth and claim to know nothing about that biblical character - I have to question how much of this Bible you claim is so great you actually know.

 

 

This is all a mischaracterization of my answers, colored by your perception.  I have answered the questions with respect to my original statement.  My answers are like a picture with a road that goes where you won't enter.  I have told you about that road and talked about how you enter through Christ and how great it is.  You reject the road you know nothing about (though you judge that you do though you don't travel it).  You reject the LORD who is the door to that road.  I am telling you the truth that it is great having fellowship with Christ on that road. 

With you I have fellowship with Christ in the way He was rejected and mischaracterize by those He came to save while on this earth physically.

The situation is actually that you have not presented your road.  You have just followed the procedure of mocking and mischaracterizing my road. 

You have not presented any argument for me to answer.  I didn't come on to argue, I came on the site to present to you honestly the road of the grace of God in Christ and how that works for me and will work for you.  You have not presented a road that works for you.  You have just displayed your disdain and distrust of me and the way of salvation I have tried to present to you. 

It isn't just eternal life that starts now in Christ if you follow Christ.  Destruction starts now as well.  One evidence of that is the fact that your eyes are blind to the fact that Jesus is the Son of God and died for your sins and rose from the dead.  If this is veiled to you I didn't make the veil.  Your god has blinded your eyes to it.  It's not because it's complicated or because I'm making it complicated.  It is the result of you rejecting Christ. 

As far as Mephibosheth, I have read some of his posts and can't see why your site kicked him off except for your insecurity or the lie that you want to discuss but don't.  Instead you want to sit around and reassure each other that you are right in this vacuum you have produced.

 

 

 

 

 


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Hi Meph. Welcome back.Fonzie

Hi Meph. Welcome back.

Fonzie wrote:
As far as Mephibosheth, I have read some of his posts and can't see why your site kicked him off except for your insecurity or the lie that you want to discuss but don't.

Answer the question : So you are a completely different guy, who just happens to have the exact same job, the exact same number of grandchildren, and who talks about exactly the same themes in exactly the same way ? And you just happen to have registered three months after that other identical guy got sent to trollville ?

Let's see how far you're willing to go in denying this. Let's see you deny your kids. How many do you have, "Fonzie" ?

Oh, I can believe you've re-read some of your old posts. Enough of them to realise the obvious simularities. So now you're just going to stop adressing the person you reply to and signing with your name ? Right after you've been found out ? I guess the only positive thing I can say about this, is that you're not very good at deceiving people.

Fonzie wrote:
Instead you want to sit around and reassure each other that you are right in this vacuum you have produced.

Actually, like I told you in your first thread, you are the one who keeps reassuring me I'm right. Heck, your first thread was what pushed me off the fence and straight into atheism. Thanks again.


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

What gets you booted from the site? Not answering questions put to you and lying about the lack of substance put to you is a good start.

Saying that you're superior to others because you've stuck with your God longer than others without telling people why your God works for you except for the release of endorphins that I can get from chocolate is another good way.

You say it's great but when we ask why you don't tell us anything more than "it's great". Who are you trying to convince - us or you?

If you aren't the user who went by the name of mephibosheth and claim to know nothing about that biblical character - I have to question how much of this Bible you claim is so great you actually know.

 

 

This is all a mischaracterization of my answers, colored by your perception.  I have answered the questions with respect to my original statement.  My answers are like a picture with a road that goes where you won't enter.  I have told you about that road and talked about how you enter through Christ and how great it is.  You reject the road you know nothing about (though you judge that you do though you don't travel it).  You reject the LORD who is the door to that road.  I am telling you the truth that it is great having fellowship with Christ on that road. 

With you I have fellowship with Christ in the way He was rejected and mischaracterize by those He came to save while on this earth physically.

The situation is actually that you have not presented your road.  You have just followed the procedure of mocking and mischaracterizing my road. 

You have not presented any argument for me to answer.  I didn't come on to argue, I came on the site to present to you honestly the road of the grace of God in Christ and how that works for me and will work for you.  You have not presented a road that works for you.  You have just displayed your disdain and distrust of me and the way of salvation I have tried to present to you. 

It isn't just eternal life that starts now in Christ if you follow Christ.  Destruction starts now as well.  One evidence of that is the fact that your eyes are blind to the fact that Jesus is the Son of God and died for your sins and rose from the dead.  If this is veiled to you I didn't make the veil.  Your god has blinded your eyes to it.  It's not because it's complicated or because I'm making it complicated.  It is the result of you rejecting Christ. 

As far as Mephibosheth, I have read some of his posts and can't see why your site kicked him off except for your insecurity or the lie that you want to discuss but don't.  Instead you want to sit around and reassure each other that you are right in this vacuum you have produced.

 

 

 

 

 

If preaching answered questions, I'd still be a believer.

I haven't mischaracterized your answer because you've given me nothing to mischaracterize. All you've really talked about is how great your God is. It is not surprising that your God is great for you - you made him that way. If I made a God by cobbling together the parts of the Bible I enjoyed, I'd probably dig him also.

While it is true I've never traveled your road, you have never traveled mine, either. You assume that I have never been down the Christian way because I haven't done it in the exact same way you have. Please lose the martyr complex - if it came to theists like you going through what Jesus had to go through, the line to become Judases would stretch for miles.

You want to know my road? It starts in reality and ends in my death. While I'm on the path I try to help as many of my fellow travelers as I can. This road works for me because this is the only one any of us really have.

Do you do that? Or do you just pray that Jesus will help the people you see that need help and believe you've done something? I'd put money on the latter as your posts have shown that you have never cracked open the Bible you claim to love.

As for meph, I don't know if he was kicked off or just left and came back under a new name because he thought he was kicked off. If the latter, creating sock-puppet accounts will get you booted.

What god has blinded me to your view? It could well be the God of the Bible (that book you've probably never read).

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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TENTATIVE

jcgadfly wrote:

If preaching answered questions, I'd still be a believer.

I haven't mischaracterized your answer because you've given me nothing to mischaracterize. All you've really talked about is how great your God is. It is not surprising that your God is great for you - you made him that way. If I made a God by cobbling together the parts of the Bible I enjoyed, I'd probably dig him also.

While it is true I've never traveled your road, you have never traveled mine, either. You assume that I have never been down the Christian way because I haven't done it in the exact same way you have. Please lose the martyr complex - if it came to theists like you going through what Jesus had to go through, the line to become Judases would stretch for miles.

You want to know my road? It starts in reality and ends in my death. While I'm on the path I try to help as many of my fellow travelers as I can. This road works for me because this is the only one any of us really have.

Do you do that? Or do you just pray that Jesus will help the people you see that need help and believe you've done something? I'd put money on the latter as your posts have shown that you have never cracked open the Bible you claim to love.

As for meph, I don't know if he was kicked off or just left and came back under a new name because he thought he was kicked off. If the latter, creating sock-puppet accounts will get you booted.

What god has blinded me to your view? It could well be the God of the Bible (that book you've probably never read).

 

JcGadfly,

The OP I am defending is that I am a working model in the sense that the "new creation" and "walking by faith" in Christ is working for me.  I read others like you indicate you have "tried" following Christ and then turned back.  How Great my God is - that is my contention and I aim to defend it to death, though I can't boast about it putting my armor on as if taking it off.

 

It's not at all something I've done for myself as you say create my own God.  My God isn't me and my God's thoughts are far above my thoughts.  I would never have chosen me to allow to live or give the Holy Spirit to if I had been God.  The reasoning all came from His side not mine.  I never made the first creation and definitely never made the "new creation".  But I have not only read about it I have experienced it and I am currently experiencing it.  

 

Your road "starts in reality and ends in death".  I want to answer that line of reasoning with the teaching of Paul that our bodies aren't really us.  We are just living in our bodies like tents, camping out.  We are spirits in tents.  I don't know how the spirit connects up with matter, but we are animated dirt.  I suppose our bones would be like the tent posts and pegs.  We're pretty waterproof but subject to disease and damage.  The eternal things are the unseen things - such as the spirit in the tent.  You are hanging on to the temporary on shore hesitating to hoist sail and venture into the unseen eternal (i.e. permanent eternal world).  Maybe you don't long for the eternal world.  Maybe you are content to eat and sleep like the ox I don't know.  But while I am content in the world in my temporary tent-home, I am not "content with" it.  I can't be satisfied with what this world has to offer.   I long to be with Christ and God, and I have a piece of heaven - the gift of the Holy Spirit - in me.  It's an earnest of my inheritance - which means it's a piece of heaven and I don't have to give it back.  I'll just get more later.  It's great, as I said in my first post.  It's active.  Walking by faith is an active living thing.  You can pose a dead body sitting but it would be hard to make it walk.  (I heard about "Weekend with Bernie).  So you are thus content with the tent huh?  You think your body is the real you?  Nobody else home huh?  Call me picky but I'm not that crazy about this tent forever.  It gets inconvenient after about 80 years I notice - if not before.

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

If preaching answered questions, I'd still be a believer.

I haven't mischaracterized your answer because you've given me nothing to mischaracterize. All you've really talked about is how great your God is. It is not surprising that your God is great for you - you made him that way. If I made a God by cobbling together the parts of the Bible I enjoyed, I'd probably dig him also.

While it is true I've never traveled your road, you have never traveled mine, either. You assume that I have never been down the Christian way because I haven't done it in the exact same way you have. Please lose the martyr complex - if it came to theists like you going through what Jesus had to go through, the line to become Judases would stretch for miles.

You want to know my road? It starts in reality and ends in my death. While I'm on the path I try to help as many of my fellow travelers as I can. This road works for me because this is the only one any of us really have.

Do you do that? Or do you just pray that Jesus will help the people you see that need help and believe you've done something? I'd put money on the latter as your posts have shown that you have never cracked open the Bible you claim to love.

As for meph, I don't know if he was kicked off or just left and came back under a new name because he thought he was kicked off. If the latter, creating sock-puppet accounts will get you booted.

What god has blinded me to your view? It could well be the God of the Bible (that book you've probably never read).

 

JcGadfly,

The OP I am defending is that I am a working model in the sense that the "new creation" and "walking by faith" in Christ is working for me.  I read others like you indicate you have "tried" following Christ and then turned back.  How Great my God is - that is my contention and I aim to defend it to death, though I can't boast about it putting my armor on as if taking it off.

 

It's not at all something I've done for myself as you say create my own God.  My God isn't me and my God's thoughts are far above my thoughts.  I would never have chosen me to allow to live or give the Holy Spirit to if I had been God.  The reasoning all came from His side not mine.  I never made the first creation and definitely never made the "new creation".  But I have not only read about it I have experienced it and I am currently experiencing it.  

 

Your road "starts in reality and ends in death".  I want to answer that line of reasoning with the teaching of Paul that our bodies aren't really us.  We are just living in our bodies like tents, camping out.  We are spirits in tents.  I don't know how the spirit connects up with matter, but we are animated dirt.  I suppose our bones would be like the tent posts and pegs.  We're pretty waterproof but subject to disease and damage.  The eternal things are the unseen things - such as the spirit in the tent.  You are hanging on to the temporary on shore hesitating to hoist sail and venture into the unseen eternal (i.e. permanent eternal world).  Maybe you don't long for the eternal world.  Maybe you are content to eat and sleep like the ox I don't know.  But while I am content in the world in my temporary tent-home, I am not "content with" it.  I can't be satisfied with what this world has to offer.   I long to be with Christ and God, and I have a piece of heaven - the gift of the Holy Spirit - in me.  It's an earnest of my inheritance - which means it's a piece of heaven and I don't have to give it back.  I'll just get more later.  It's great, as I said in my first post.  It's active.  Walking by faith is an active living thing.  You can pose a dead body sitting but it would be hard to make it walk.  (I heard about "Weekend with Bernie).  So you are thus content with the tent huh?  You think your body is the real you?  Nobody else home huh?  Call me picky but I'm not that crazy about this tent forever.  It gets inconvenient after about 80 years I notice - if not before.

 

 

 

Never said you were your God. You've just taken Paul's creation and tweaked it to fit.

I do like the way you've disregarded what I said about how I lived my life to focus on the trivial. I try to help others along the way while you sit and think about your heavenly home and that brand-spanking new body that the old holy book told you that' you'd get for kissing the tail of their version of God. Meanwhile, the world goes on and your opportunities to be useful keep dwindling away.

Poor baby - too heavenly minded to be of any earthly good.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Anonymouse
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Even when people make it

Even when people make it easy for you, you still don't listen, do you, meph ?

I mean, didn't you read this ? :

jcgadfly wrote:
If preaching answered questions, I'd still be a believer.

Apparently not, cause this is your answer :


Fonzie wrote:
JcGadfly,

The OP I am defending is that I am a working model in the sense that the "new creation" and "walking by faith" in Christ is working for me.  I read others like you indicate you have "tried" following Christ and then turned back.  How Great my God is - that is my contention and I aim to defend it to death, though I can't boast about it putting my armor on as if taking it off.

 

It's not at all something I've done for myself as you say create my own God.  My God isn't me and my God's thoughts are far above my thoughts.  I would never have chosen me to allow to live or give the Holy Spirit to if I had been God.  The reasoning all came from His side not mine.  I never made the first creation and definitely never made the "new creation".  But I have not only read about it I have experienced it and I am currently experiencing it.  

 

Your road "starts in reality and ends in death".  I want to answer that line of reasoning with the teaching of Paul that our bodies aren't really us.  We are just living in our bodies like tents, camping out.  We are spirits in tents.  I don't know how the spirit connects up with matter, but we are animated dirt.  I suppose our bones would be like the tent posts and pegs.  We're pretty waterproof but subject to disease and damage.  The eternal things are the unseen things - such as the spirit in the tent.  You are hanging on to the temporary on shore hesitating to hoist sail and venture into the unseen eternal (i.e. permanent eternal world).  Maybe you don't long for the eternal world.  Maybe you are content to eat and sleep like the ox I don't know.  But while I am content in the world in my temporary tent-home, I am not "content with" it.  I can't be satisfied with what this world has to offer.   I long to be with Christ and God, and I have a piece of heaven - the gift of the Holy Spirit - in me.  It's an earnest of my inheritance - which means it's a piece of heaven and I don't have to give it back.  I'll just get more later.  It's great, as I said in my first post.  It's active.  Walking by faith is an active living thing.  You can pose a dead body sitting but it would be hard to make it walk.  (I heard about "Weekend with Bernie).  So you are thus content with the tent huh?  You think your body is the real you?  Nobody else home huh?  Call me picky but I'm not that crazy about this tent forever.  It gets inconvenient after about 80 years I notice - if not before.

You know, if you hadn't told us already you suffered from bipolar disorder, I would be getting pretty worried about you by now.

 


GypsyWytch
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Your faith is personal.

You have a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ".  So keep it that way.  Keep it personal and keep it to yourself.  You wouldn't have to "defend" your god if you and your ilk weren't out on the streets and in the government ruining peoples' lives with it.  It belongs in your home and in your church, NOWHERE ELSE.

Liberate your mind. Fuck religion.


Fonzie
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GypsyWytch wrote:You have a

GypsyWytch wrote:

You have a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ".  So keep it that way.  Keep it personal and keep it to yourself.  You wouldn't have to "defend" your god if you and your ilk weren't out on the streets and in the government ruining peoples' lives with it.  It belongs in your home and in your church, NOWHERE ELSE.

 

GypsyWytch,

I've been thinking about what you said here.  I'm doing nothing more than you telling me about your atheism.  Am I wrong that this site invites "me and my ilk" here to discuss?  Isn't this section entitled "atheism vs theism"?  What is more personal than my saying it "works for me"?  Who has the language of "defending" here - you or me if not both?  I get it that you are an atheist and I have no intention of trying to interfere with your freedom to be an atheist, love other atheists, vote for atheists, and disdain those who believe in Jesus.  I wouldn't try to legislate any of those things even if I could.  But I would say to you that I believe you have the wrong impression of Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit.  And I would also say that understanding is good.  Honestly looking at things is good.  Simply driving by and making an obscene gesture, not stopping to understand or consider doesn't make progress either on the individual or corporate level.  And just as you can't deny the way atheism works for you I can't deny how walking by faith in Jesus works for me.  I'm trying to share that fact in a reasonable way.  From your viewpoint maybe my experience with God and Christ can't exist but I am saying it does, and also I can honestly say I don't have any resentment or bad feelings or superior attitude of myself toward you.  I'm at peace with the difference, but I can't deny that God and Christ and the Holy Spirit and the Living Word of God are all more real to me than anything I can see or touch.  

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 


Anonymouse
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Fonzie wrote:GypsyWytch,I've

Fonzie wrote:

GypsyWytch,

I've been thinking about what you said here.

You have ? Well, that's a first. This should be good.

Fonzie wrote:
I'm doing nothing more than you telling me about your atheism.

She didn't tell you about her atheism. Again, you're not actually reading the posts you reply to.

Fonzie wrote:
Am I wrong that this site invites "me and my ilk" here to discuss?

You don't discuss, you preach. Many people have tried to discuss things with you. Practically all of them have given up, because you simply ignore them, and wait for new people to show up.

You preach. That's all you do. Learn the difference.

Fonzie wrote:
... and disdain those who believe in Jesus. 

Disdain is reserved for consistently dishonest people such as yourself, Meph.

Fonzie wrote:
I wouldn't try to legislate any of those things even if I could.

Good. Then don't vote for people who would. Promise ?

Fonzie wrote:
But I would say to you that I believe you have the wrong impression of Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit.

She didn't mention her impression of any of those characters, so what are you even talking about ?

Fonzie wrote:
And I would also say that understanding is good.

Yes, it is. Making stuff up and calling it "understanding", however, that's bad. Kindly stop doing that.

Fonzie wrote:
Honestly looking at things is good.

Did you just use the word "honestly" ? Oh dear...You should really start looking up words before you use them.

Fonzie wrote:
Simply driving by and making an obscene gesture, not stopping to understand or consider doesn't make progress either on the individual or corporate level.

You just described the way you deal with posters who point out your contradictions and inconsistencies. Yes, we know it "doesn't make progress", so kindly stop doing it, okay ?

Fonzie wrote:
I can't deny how walking by faith in Jesus works for me.  I'm trying to share that fact in a reasonable way.

We noticed you sharing that fact. You just don't want to discuss it. Which makes your presence on a discussion forum frankly puzzling.

Oh, and by the way, it doesn't work for you. This has already been pointed out to you, and you've generously provided proof for it.

Fonzie wrote:
From your viewpoint maybe my experience with God and Christ can't exist but I am saying it does,

It's true because Meph sez it is. Really, what more do you need ?

Fonzie wrote:
and also I can honestly say I don't have any resentment or bad feelings or superior attitude of myself toward you.
 

You seem to have forgotten your death threats. And you still claim to be superior to those who didn't find god. You don't even read your own posts, do you ?

Fonzie wrote:
I'm at peace with the difference,

If that was true, then you wouldn't even be here.

Fonzie wrote:
but I can't deny that God and Christ and the Holy Spirit and the Living Word of God are all more real to me than anything I can see or touch.
 

Then I suggest you shut your eyes for ever and stop touching anything.

 


jcgadfly
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Nothing wrong with

Nothing wrong with discussing ideas - in fact I rather wish you'd start.

The discussions to this point have gone something like this:

You: Jesus is cool!

One of us: Ok - why does Jesus work for you?

You: Jesus is cool!

One of us: Yeah - but why? You're not telling us anything.

You: I've answered you clearly - It's just that the answer leads you to a place where you don't want to go. Jesus is cool!

One of us: Some of us have been Christians before...

You: Oh, you just didn't stick with it - If you'd stuck with it for as long as I have, you'd have no problems. Jesus is cool!

One of us: But it says in the Bible that.<fill in reference here>..and you said this <fill in quote here>.

You: You just mischaracterized what I said and have a flawed understanding of his word. Jesus is cool!

<usw.>

I don't want you to deny your Jesus if he works for you. If you are one of those who needs Jesus to keep him from doing all kinds of bad things, then please Keep the Jesus!

As for Jesus being more real than the visible and tangible - I'd love to see some justification for that (other than "Jesus is cool!" of course).

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Fonzie
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JESUS IS COOL

jcgadfly wrote:

Nothing wrong with discussing ideas - in fact I rather wish you'd start.

The discussions to this point have gone something like this:

You: Jesus is cool!

One of us: Ok - why does Jesus work for you?

You: Jesus is cool!

One of us: Yeah - but why? You're not telling us anything.

You: I've answered you clearly - It's just that the answer leads you to a place where you don't want to go. Jesus is cool!

One of us: Some of us have been Christians before...

You: Oh, you just didn't stick with it - If you'd stuck with it for as long as I have, you'd have no problems. Jesus is cool!

One of us: But it says in the Bible that.<fill in reference here>..and you said this <fill in quote here>.

You: You just mischaracterized what I said and have a flawed understanding of his word. Jesus is cool!

<usw.>

I don't want you to deny your Jesus if he works for you. If you are one of those who needs Jesus to keep him from doing all kinds of bad things, then please Keep the Jesus!

As for Jesus being more real than the visible and tangible - I'd love to see some justification for that (other than "Jesus is cool!" of course).

 

jcgadfly,

 

Why does Jesus work for me ---

Have you ever anticipated doing something, going somewhere, buying something and it was fulfilling in every way?  I haven't - except for this:  putting my faith and trust in Jesus, what He says, fellowship with Him in
The Spirit.  My wife believes in Jesus too, which makes the marriage like heaven on earth.  I have personally experienced great changes in my life, great security, life is more and more fulfilling, great and greater happiness, more and more longing for Him, more and more anxious to see Him face to face. 

I am also able to help some fellow travelers on the way.  

I can't think of anything in my life that Jesus doesn't help and give instruction in, correction of, and make better.  I get guidance in work skills and safety, self discipline, warning about traps of life, light to understand what's going on and what to expect.  I am being helped in this life and also prepared for death and heaven - the next.  I have a piece of heaven in me that is a guarantee and certified seal of my inheritance.  I am having experiences that match up with some Jesus had, also some vexations He had, also some very close relationships with other disciples like He had, closer and closer fellowship with Him in the Spirit.  I have no anxieties.  I have no fears.  I look forward to tomorrow with great incentive.  I look back to no regrets.  The Scriptures are a continual spiritual feast and a spiritual GPS to my way.  I'm having success in my business, marriage, relationships with Christians and non Christians.  I have the security of discipline from God when I need it. 

Like you said I am one of those who can't live without Jesus.  I would be the most miserable man ever without Him.  I couldn't imagine it.

As far as Jesus and everything that happened in the Bible being as real to me as if I had been there and more real than things I can see and touch - I'm not sure I can get that across to you, but I'm telling you the truth.  I don't have to work at it - that's the way it is.  The Bible is a miraculous book, unlike any other.  "....living and active, able to divide bone from marrow".  I know that won't do it for you, but seeing the unseen eternal world is a by-product of eating, digesting (meditating on) and applying the Scriptures.  I'm having the problem here of talking colors to a man born blind.  The LORD opens your eyes to see the unseen.  The wicked walk in darkness, they don't know what they are stumbling over.  Sorry JCGadfly, I'm just hitting a wall as far as describing it.  How would you describe color to a man born blind? 

 

 

 

 


Atheistextremist
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Hello Fonzie

 

"I am just delivering the message of the gospel not disputing about it.  Believe in Jesus or die - that's an eternal fact."

 

I read through this whole thread and considered everything you were saying and despite your overweaning attempts to appear nothing but a mealy-mouthed punching bag it's the statement above that I feel best sums up the

core of your doctrine and by association, the empty corridors of your own loathsome heart.

Taking this into account I include below the statement that best sums up my response to you and everything you stand for:

 

"Fonzie, go and fuck yourself."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly, Why

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly,

 

Why does Jesus work for me ---

Meph,

 

Why Jesus doesn't work for you : Because you'd happily kill innocent kids for him. The end.

Fonzie wrote:
Have you ever anticipated doing something, going somewhere, buying something and it was fulfilling in every way?  I haven't - except for this:  putting my faith and trust in Jesus, what He says, fellowship with Him in
The Spirit.

You : Jesus is cool !

Fonzie wrote:
My wife believes in Jesus too, which makes the marriage like heaven on earth.

Huh ? Since when do you believe in heaven on earth ? Please stick to your story.

Fonzie wrote:
I have personally experienced great changes in my life, great security, life is more and more fulfilling, great and greater happiness, more and more longing for Him, more and more anxious to see Him face to face.

I'll save you some time : Look in the mirror.

Fonzie wrote:
I am also able to help some fellow travelers on the way. 

This is certainly true. If I ever have any doubts about my atheism, I just read a few of your posts and I suddenly remember where it came from. Works for other people too.

Fonzie wrote:
I can't think of anything in my life that Jesus doesn't help and give instruction in, correction of, and make better.

Oh, I can ! You're completely lacking in honesty. I guess jesus doesn't value that particular quality very much. Basic morality also isn't one of your strong points, by your own proud admission.

Fonzie wrote:
I get guidance in work skills and safety, self discipline, warning about traps of life, light to understand what's going on and what to expect.  I am being helped in this life

Everybody gets that, Meph. But not from supernatural beings.

Fonzie wrote:
and also prepared for death and heaven - the next.  I have a piece of heaven in me that is a guarantee and certified seal of my inheritance.  I am having experiences that match up with some Jesus had, also some vexations He had, also some very close relationships with other disciples like He had, closer and closer fellowship with Him in the Spirit.

Just like jesus, eh ? Yeah, jesus is cool, and guess who's just like jesus.

Fonzie wrote:
  I have no anxieties.  I have no fears.  I look forward to tomorrow with great incentive.  I look back to no regrets.

Same here. Your point ?

Fonzie wrote:
The Scriptures are a continual spiritual feast and a spiritual GPS to my way.

Preaching.

Fonzie wrote:
I'm having success in my business, marriage, relationships with Christians and non Christians.  I have the security of discipline

My atheist grandad can say the same. So again, you have no point to make.

Fonzie wrote:
from God when I need it.
 

Actually, no. God being all powerfull can withhold things from you if he feels like it, no matter how much you need them.

Fonzie wrote:
Like you said I am one of those who can't live without Jesus.  I would be the most miserable man ever without Him.  I couldn't imagine it.
 

You don't have to imagine it. You're living it right now. Not so bad, is it ?

Fonzie wrote:
As far as Jesus and everything that happened in the Bible being as real to me as if I had been there and more real than things I can see and touch - I'm not sure I can get that across to you, but I'm telling you the truth.
 

It's true because Meph sez so. Why won't we just accept Meph ? He so much like jesus, so why not just believe everything he sez ?

Fonzie wrote:
I don't have to work at it - that's the way it is.
 

Well, preaching is pretty easy. Nobody has to work at that. Just read your next line :

Fonzie wrote:
The Bible is a miraculous book, unlike any other.  "....living and active, able to divide bone from marrow".  I know that won't do it for you, but seeing the unseen eternal world is a by-product of eating, digesting (meditating on) and applying the Scriptures.
 

This is kinda worth it just for the unintentionally hilarious metaphors.

Fonzie wrote:
  I'm having the problem here of talking colors to a man born blind.

You're having the problem of debating people without any actual arguments.

Fonzie wrote:
The LORD opens your eyes to see the unseen.  The wicked walk in darkness, they don't know what they are stumbling over.

Maybe they're stumbling over the bodies of people killed in god's name.

Fonzie wrote:
Sorry JCGadfly, I'm just hitting a wall as far as describing it.

Well, that will happen when you're describing something that doesn't exist.

Fonzie wrote:
How would you describe color to a man born blind?

Deep brain stimulation. 

 


jcgadfly
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How would I describe color

How would I describe color to a man born blind?

More than likely, I wouldn't bother. Why fill his head with information he doesn't need?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin