It works for me!

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It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

cervello_marcio wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

cervello_marcio wrote:

Actually I think he was talking about the creation story, the references to unicorns and satyrs, saying the earth was flat, contradicting itself by saying to obey the government but to have no gods before the lord (rendering Daniel a heathen and bad example for all of us), saying all sins are equal in god's eyes and then condemning blasphemers to hell (no exceptions), etc, etc, etc.

Rightly understood in the light of the truth Christ brings there is no contradiction.

Okay. I was a Baptist for 18 years but I guess I missed the boat on that one. Why don't you go ahead and explain to me how it is not contradictory.

Romans 13: "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves...They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience."

And now from Daniel:

 

 

"6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

6:11 Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God.

 

6:12 Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any God or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.

 

6:13 Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day."

 

 

 

 

Cervello,

 

There's no conflict here:  The Holy Spirit in Romans says to be subject to the governing authorities.  This instruction is from God - the Top Authority.

 

(Daniel 6.3 "Then this Daniel became distinguished above all the other presidents and the satraps, because an excellent spirit was in him; and the king planned to set Him over the whole kingdom.  4 Then the presidents and the satraps sought to find a ground for complaint against Daniel with regard to the kingdom; but they could fin no ground for complaint or any fault, because he was faithful, and no error or fault was found in him.  5 Then these men said, 'We shall not find any ground for complaint against this Daniel unless we find it in connection with the law of his God)' ".

 

There was a little Chicago politics going on, and Daniel ended up in the lion's den - submitting both to God and the government of his day.  The crooked politicians eventually ended up there too with a different result in their misuse and perversion of authority.  All worked out for a good lesson in faith and submission.

 

 

 

Look closely - this is how and why doctors who just happen to perform abortions get killed.

"I don't need to worry about Man's law. My authority comes from God himself through the words of the apostle Paul. I don't have to worry about the Ten Commandments either - that was old law for the Jews and Jesus fulfilled all of that by his death on the cross. I'm under grace and not under law."

It's ironic to see commentary on Chicago politics from someone who proudly serves the ultimate godfather - someone who has done (and still does) crimes that would make Capone blush.

 

 

 

 

 

JCGadfly,

If one let his imagination get as far off base as from here to Pluto you have lapped him several times with that mischaracterization - attributing the things of your father to The Father, The LORD of all the earth. 

 


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And yet, you deny none of it...

Just as well, you couldn't deny it anyway unless you choose to deny Romans 4.

 

 

JCGadfly,

 

I can't understand why anyone would want to deny Romans 4.  You have a problem you can't solve yourself.  God offers the solution as a gift.  You refuse.  That makes sense to who else but your father the Devil so he can keep you enslaved to the despair in your spirit because you are not in fellowship with the God Who made you and Jesus Who died for you.  You are eternally linked to your unfulfilled spirit-self.  You didn't make yourself and you can't be fulfilled in yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

I can't understand why you'd want to deny Romans 4 either - it's your license to do whatever you want to as Paul defined sin out of existence in that chapter.

Why pay attention to the laws of God and man when you don't really have to?

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is a freedom in Christ you are right - but it's not freedom to sin.  Sin is not a desire of those who love Christ.  You might nog realize that those who have been born again and have been given a new heart - hate sin.  It is like sport to a fool to sin, but it is a pleasure to do what Christ wants to those who love Him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What part of "Where there is no law there is no transgression" is not freedom to sin?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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WHY WHY WHY

jcgadfly wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What part of "Where there is no law there is no transgression" is not freedom to sin?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, JC, the Holy Spirit through Paul continues, "What shall we say then?  Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?  By no means!  How can we who died to sin still live in it?  Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?  We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

We can no longer enjoy sinning JC, because in Christ we are a "new creation".  This does not mean we are not tempted to sin, because we certainly are.  But if you are cruising down the road in your '57 Chevy, the oldies on, great road, running fine - why would you choose to wreck?  Once you get a taste of real life and freedom in Christ you won't want to - believe me. 

 

 

"Keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life."

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What part of "Where there is no law there is no transgression" is not freedom to sin?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, JC, the Holy Spirit through Paul continues, "What shall we say then?  Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?  By no means!  How can we who died to sin still live in it?  Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?  We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

We can no longer enjoy sinning JC, because in Christ we are a "new creation".  This does not mean we are not tempted to sin, because we certainly are.  But if you are cruising down the road in your '57 Chevy, the oldies on, great road, running fine - why would you choose to wreck?  Once you get a taste of real life and freedom in Christ you won't want to - believe me. 

 

 

"Keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life."

 

 

Or Paul managed to contradict himself from Romans 4 to Romans 6.

Why worry about sinnning if there's no penalty for the believer in Christ?

There's that "real freedom" thing sgsin - id it only if we're in lockstep with you or can we stick to the lesser tools of the Bible and Christ?

I apologize for the sarcasm but you seem to be playing this "you can only be a Christian if you do it my way" game.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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FREEDOM

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What part of "Where there is no law there is no transgression" is not freedom to sin?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, JC, the Holy Spirit through Paul continues, "What shall we say then?  Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?  By no means!  How can we who died to sin still live in it?  Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?  We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

We can no longer enjoy sinning JC, because in Christ we are a "new creation".  This does not mean we are not tempted to sin, because we certainly are.  But if you are cruising down the road in your '57 Chevy, the oldies on, great road, running fine - why would you choose to wreck?  Once you get a taste of real life and freedom in Christ you won't want to - believe me. 

 

 

"Keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life."

 

 

Or Paul managed to contradict himself from Romans 4 to Romans 6.

Why worry about sinnning if there's no penalty for the believer in Christ?

There's that "real freedom" thing sgsin - id it only if we're in lockstep with you or can we stick to the lesser tools of the Bible and Christ?

I apologize for the sarcasm but you seem to be playing this "you can only be a Christian if you do it my way" game.

 

 

JC,

There is a penalty for sinning - it hurts our relationship with Christ.  The church is the bride of Christ and the relationship is extreemly close.  The reasons for not sinning are powerful - we have been bought and paid for with the blood of our LORD.  We have died and been born anew.  Why would we want to go around with a dead body around our neck.  We are dead to sin. 

It's obvious you don't have to worry about being in lockstep with me.  Jesus is the One to draw near to - John used Him for a pillow - Jesus loved John.  Jesus doesn't surround Himself with staff - He deals personally. 

As to freedom in Christ - don't knock it.  If you experience it you'll love it.  Jesus said the truth can make you free.  One thing involved in that is freedom from the false impressions of Jesus and  the false definitions of freedom in Him.  And you will hate sin.  Your appetite will have changed.  You will be feeding the spirit rather than the flesh - you will let the flesh die.  It's a slow daily death.  It's a battle, it's a race.  You need to join and start - then run.

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What part of "Where there is no law there is no transgression" is not freedom to sin?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, JC, the Holy Spirit through Paul continues, "What shall we say then?  Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?  By no means!  How can we who died to sin still live in it?  Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?  We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

We can no longer enjoy sinning JC, because in Christ we are a "new creation".  This does not mean we are not tempted to sin, because we certainly are.  But if you are cruising down the road in your '57 Chevy, the oldies on, great road, running fine - why would you choose to wreck?  Once you get a taste of real life and freedom in Christ you won't want to - believe me. 

 

 

"Keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life."

 

 

Or Paul managed to contradict himself from Romans 4 to Romans 6.

Why worry about sinnning if there's no penalty for the believer in Christ?

There's that "real freedom" thing sgsin - id it only if we're in lockstep with you or can we stick to the lesser tools of the Bible and Christ?

I apologize for the sarcasm but you seem to be playing this "you can only be a Christian if you do it my way" game.

 

 

JC,

There is a penalty for sinning - it hurts our relationship with Christ.  The church is the bride of Christ and the relationship is extreemly close.  The reasons for not sinning are powerful - we have been bought and paid for with the blood of our LORD.  We have died and been born anew.  Why would we want to go around with a dead body around our neck.  We are dead to sin. 

It's obvious you don't have to worry about being in lockstep with me.  Jesus is the One to draw near to - John used Him for a pillow - Jesus loved John.  Jesus doesn't surround Himself with staff - He deals personally. 

As to freedom in Christ - don't knock it.  If you experience it you'll love it.  Jesus said the truth can make you free.  One thing involved in that is freedom from the false impressions of Jesus and  the false definitions of freedom in Him.  And you will hate sin.  Your appetite will have changed.  You will be feeding the spirit rather than the flesh - you will let the flesh die.  It's a slow daily death.  It's a battle, it's a race.  You need to join and start - then run.

 

 

 

 

 

Again, not according to Paul. If Jesus says one thing and Paul says another, who does one follow?

Sometimes I wonder if the Gospel writers created another version of Christ because Paul's was less human.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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IT WORKS FOR ME

 

JC,

I understand you and I are on opposite sides of faith in God and Jesus and the Scriptures. 

I admit I can't do anything about it. 

I don't think I have credibility with you and the converse is also true. 

You seem happy with your god, and I am happy and fulfilled in every way with the God of all the earth Who I believe as all inspired history reports lived in human flesh on this earth and made atonement on the cross and now walks among the candlesticks.  Because of His grace I know Him and worship Him and rejoice in Him.  I have tried to share the good news of this with you - but it begins with the fear of the Lord.  Thus this discussion with you has never really begun.  I share the sorrow of Christ over that.

Whether we are fools or not to believe thus in God and Christ the world will know one day. 

 

"The end of the matter; all has been heard.  Fear God, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.  For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil."

 

 


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Fonzie wrote: JC,I

Fonzie wrote:

 

JC,

I understand you and I are on opposite sides of faith in God and Jesus and the Scriptures. 

I admit I can't do anything about it. 

I don't think I have credibility with you and the converse is also true. 

You seem happy with your god, and I am happy and fulfilled in every way with the God of all the earth Who I believe as all inspired history reports lived in human flesh on this earth and made atonement on the cross and now walks among the candlesticks.  Because of His grace I know Him and worship Him and rejoice in Him.  I have tried to share the good news of this with you - but it begins with the fear of the Lord.  Thus this discussion with you has never really begun.  I share the sorrow of Christ over that.

Whether we are fools or not to believe thus in God and Christ the world will know one day. 

 

"The end of the matter; all has been heard.  Fear God, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.  For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil."

 

 

I don't have any problem with you or your god - My questions could well be interpreted as an attempt to return. 

The problem I have is from those who claim to know God but can't seem to read his holy book beyond the parts they like, disregarding the parts that might just disturb their thinking.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 

JC,

I understand you and I are on opposite sides of faith in God and Jesus and the Scriptures. 

I admit I can't do anything about it. 

I don't think I have credibility with you and the converse is also true. 

You seem happy with your god, and I am happy and fulfilled in every way with the God of all the earth Who I believe as all inspired history reports lived in human flesh on this earth and made atonement on the cross and now walks among the candlesticks.  Because of His grace I know Him and worship Him and rejoice in Him.  I have tried to share the good news of this with you - but it begins with the fear of the Lord.  Thus this discussion with you has never really begun.  I share the sorrow of Christ over that.

Whether we are fools or not to believe thus in God and Christ the world will know one day. 

 

"The end of the matter; all has been heard.  Fear God, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.  For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil."

 

 

I don't have any problem with you or your god - My questions could well be interpreted as an attempt to return. 

The problem I have is from those who claim to know God but can't seem to read his holy book beyond the parts they like, disregarding the parts that might just disturb their thinking.

 

JC -

I'm glad you don't have a problem with me or my God.  I hope you do return.  I would advise you to not let far from perfect sons and daughters of Christ be your focus.  


 

 


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LITTLE MEN DO NOT MARTYRS MAKE

 

JC,

 

I was just reading this proverb:  "The sluggard says, 'There is a lion outside!  I shall be slain in the streets!'"

 

There could be such a thing as spiritual laziness - not only that, but trying to put the best face on it:  fear of the king of beasts.  The lazy guy  isn't lazy with his tongue though - he talks about repentance but doesn't do it.  A lot is talked about but nothing is done.  He will invent doubts and dilemmas and disputes.  But the only reason is this:  he don't want to give up his sins and give up his self righteousness and be washed in the Blood of the Lamb and give all the glory to God and the Redeemer.  He will lose heaven rather than face the lion of his own fear.

We are little men today.  The martyrs faced lions and sang in the fire for our LORD.  He led the way through the fire Himself - heated 7 times hotter. 

 


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Fonzie wrote: But the only

Fonzie wrote:

 

But the only reason is this:  he don't want to give up his sins

 

    The pure irony of this type of reasoning is that I have come across so many Christians, and even Christian clergy, who are involved in all kinds of sinful behaviours.  Apparently one needn't remain in unbelief to cling to their beloved sins.

    The only real difference is that the Christian reprobate, no matter how degenerate their moral lapses, and even if they are taken in death with out forsaking their evil habits, gets to eventually saunter into Heaven because he / she was washed in the blood of Christ. The worst that could happen is that the so-called carnal Christian may lose some of their rewards.  See 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 or 2 Timothy 2:13.

Sinner in Heaven before the throne of judgment: " I'm sorry Jesus, I didn't mean to commit adultery with the church secretary... please don't take away my gold-plated swimming poooool !!! )

   So much for God's perfect justice, after all a bad day in Heaven is still better than a good day in Hell.

 

 

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.


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Fonzie wrote: JC, I was

Fonzie wrote:

 

JC,

 

I was just reading this proverb:  "The sluggard says, 'There is a lion outside!  I shall be slain in the streets!'"

 

There could be such a thing as spiritual laziness - not only that, but trying to put the best face on it:  fear of the king of beasts.  The lazy guy  isn't lazy with his tongue though - he talks about repentance but doesn't do it.  A lot is talked about but nothing is done.  He will invent doubts and dilemmas and disputes.  But the only reason is this:  he don't want to give up his sins and give up his self righteousness and be washed in the Blood of the Lamb and give all the glory to God and the Redeemer.  He will lose heaven rather than face the lion of his own fear.

We are little men today.  The martyrs faced lions and sang in the fire for our LORD.  He led the way through the fire Himself - heated 7 times hotter. 

 

The sluggard makes up an excuse so that he doesn't have to work.He's creating an illusion to escape reality.

It can be said that Christians make up a God so they don't have to contend with the world as it is. They focus on eternity so they don't have to give a damn about what's outside their door. For lack of a better phrase, they are too heavenly minded to be of any earthly good.

As for sin - it's actually the one thing Christians and atheists agree on. It holds no terrors for either of us. Sin means nothing to the atheist because there is no god to offend. It means nothing to the Christian because he can simply ask his God for forgiveness and promise not to do it again (until the next time it becomes convenient/pleasurable to do so). 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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CONSISTENT

 

JC,

There was a time I thought you were playing games with your statements but you have convinced me (I could be wrongly convinced, true) that you are consistent in your arguments from unbelief.  These are like messages from another planet to me - I would never have thought of them - but they seem to be from the same planet to me. 

Unfortunately I can't inspire faith in Jesus Christ - that He died being the death of Death, the Lamb of God, and rose from the grave and now Lives in His church of which there are wheat and tares (you have spotted some tares I take it) 

Concerning faith from the heart - saving faith in Jesus - I want to say this confidently:  If you could have the privilege of seeing all the miracles that Christ performed personally - raising the dead, healing the blind, cleansing lepers, walking on water, changing water to wine, putting the ear back on the Roman soldier, etc, the privilege of seeing these could not save you - unless God gave you faith in Jesus and you gave up your sins (which all have) and went through the Door (which is Christ) into the Kingdom and continued to walk with God and Christ there, sustained and nourished by Them.

It is a paradox but true.  No man will be lost without it being his own choice - but no man will be saved except totally by the gift and power of God. 

 

 

 

"The slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting; but the substance of a diligent man is precious"

 

 

I hope you will turn all this on your spit so that it's edible/ digestible and turn into usable soul nutrients.

 

 

 

It would probably be comforting to those carrying the flag of atheism to be convinced that death is oblivion, but that is not the case.  Man is linked to eternity.  Death is nothing but an eyeblink between this life and the next.  "All flesh is grass" and the King does His mowing. 

 

The believers in Christ have their song of victory, "Death where is your sting?"  Death asks that of you atheists - "where will you be when I remove all those and that you enjoy and see and hear and have"?  Your pulse beats like a drum on your march to certain death for which you have no answer. 

 

For the believer in Christ Death has no victory.  The sting of death is sin and sin is forgiven in Christ.  In this life I get to experience the risen LORD in the moment - with no regrets of the past and no fears of the future whatever.  In the next I get to experience the LORD in PERSON.  Think of it:  The ONE Who made you and I and everything good you have ever seen or enjoyed.  The ONE Who loves us the most, for real, for eternity!!! 

 

And you insist on keeping yourselves from it with your great gulf of unbelief!  You may tickle the fancies of those who walk on the same road on this forum, but Death says, "you're mine!"  and you have no answer.  The answer is Christ and will you let your pride exclude you from this great victory??  If so, know that you are judged already - because you do not believe in the KING God has set on His Holy Hill. 

 

 

Fonzie

 

"UPON A LIFE I DID NOT LIVE

UPON A DEATH I DID NOT DIE

 I RISK MY WHOLE ETERNITY"

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote: It would

Fonzie wrote:

 

It would probably be comforting to those carrying the flag of atheism to be convinced that death is oblivion, but that is not the case.  Man is linked to eternity.  Death is nothing but an eyeblink between this life and the next.  "All flesh is grass" and the King does His mowing. 

 

The believers in Christ have their song of victory, "Death where is your sting?"  Death asks that of you atheists - "where will you be when I remove all those and that you enjoy and see and hear and have"?  Your pulse beats like a drum on your march to certain death for which you have no answer. 

 

For the believer in Christ Death has no victory.  The sting of death is sin and sin is forgiven in Christ.  In this life I get to experience the risen LORD in the moment - with no regrets of the past and no fears of the future whatever.  In the next I get to experience the LORD in PERSON.  Think of it:  The ONE Who made you and I and everything good you have ever seen or enjoyed.  The ONE Who loves us the most, for real, for eternity!!! 

 

And you insist on keeping yourselves from it with your great gulf of unbelief!  You may tickle the fancies of those who walk on the same road on this forum, but Death says, "you're mine!"  and you have no answer.  The answer is Christ and will you let your pride exclude you from this great victory??  If so, know that you are judged already - because you do not believe in the KING God has set on His Holy Hill.

Your appeal to fear might be more effective is you used something I was scared of.

Death holds no terrors for me as it does for you and others who need to create an afterlife where everything will be beautiful for you because you believe you've jumped through the right hoops.

Or are you one of those who gets his kicks out of thinking about those who disagree with yoy being punished eternally for their finite crimes?

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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NO FEAR WHAT

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 

It would probably be comforting to those carrying the flag of atheism to be convinced that death is oblivion, but that is not the case.  Man is linked to eternity.  Death is nothing but an eyeblink between this life and the next.  "All flesh is grass" and the King does His mowing. 

 

The believers in Christ have their song of victory, "Death where is your sting?"  Death asks that of you atheists - "where will you be when I remove all those and that you enjoy and see and hear and have"?  Your pulse beats like a drum on your march to certain death for which you have no answer. 

 

For the believer in Christ Death has no victory.  The sting of death is sin and sin is forgiven in Christ.  In this life I get to experience the risen LORD in the moment - with no regrets of the past and no fears of the future whatever.  In the next I get to experience the LORD in PERSON.  Think of it:  The ONE Who made you and I and everything good you have ever seen or enjoyed.  The ONE Who loves us the most, for real, for eternity!!! 

 

And you insist on keeping yourselves from it with your great gulf of unbelief!  You may tickle the fancies of those who walk on the same road on this forum, but Death says, "you're mine!"  and you have no answer.  The answer is Christ and will you let your pride exclude you from this great victory??  If so, know that you are judged already - because you do not believe in the KING God has set on His Holy Hill.

Your appeal to fear might be more effective is you used something I was scared of.

Death holds no terrors for me as it does for you and others who need to create an afterlife where everything will be beautiful for you because you believe you've jumped through the right hoops.

Or are you one of those who gets his kicks out of thinking about those who disagree with yoy being punished eternally for their finite crimes?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't get any joy out of thinking of the destruction of anybody. 

You say you have no fear of the appeal of God to repent and accept His grace - and I believe you are being honest.  Do you see yourself in this scripture:   "Bold and wilful, they are not afraid to revile the glorious ones, wheras angels, though greater in might and power do not pronounce a reviling judgment on them before the LORD.  But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct,  born to be caught and killed, reviling in matters of which they are ignorant, will be destroyed in the same destruction with them, suffering wrong for their wrongdoing."   I am bringing the warning before the trumpet blast.  Judge for yourself whether I am your friend or a feindish enemy delighting in your doom. 

 

 

 

 


jcgadfly
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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 

It would probably be comforting to those carrying the flag of atheism to be convinced that death is oblivion, but that is not the case.  Man is linked to eternity.  Death is nothing but an eyeblink between this life and the next.  "All flesh is grass" and the King does His mowing. 

 

The believers in Christ have their song of victory, "Death where is your sting?"  Death asks that of you atheists - "where will you be when I remove all those and that you enjoy and see and hear and have"?  Your pulse beats like a drum on your march to certain death for which you have no answer. 

 

For the believer in Christ Death has no victory.  The sting of death is sin and sin is forgiven in Christ.  In this life I get to experience the risen LORD in the moment - with no regrets of the past and no fears of the future whatever.  In the next I get to experience the LORD in PERSON.  Think of it:  The ONE Who made you and I and everything good you have ever seen or enjoyed.  The ONE Who loves us the most, for real, for eternity!!! 

 

And you insist on keeping yourselves from it with your great gulf of unbelief!  You may tickle the fancies of those who walk on the same road on this forum, but Death says, "you're mine!"  and you have no answer.  The answer is Christ and will you let your pride exclude you from this great victory??  If so, know that you are judged already - because you do not believe in the KING God has set on His Holy Hill.

Your appeal to fear might be more effective is you used something I was scared of.

Death holds no terrors for me as it does for you and others who need to create an afterlife where everything will be beautiful for you because you believe you've jumped through the right hoops.

Or are you one of those who gets his kicks out of thinking about those who disagree with yoy being punished eternally for their finite crimes?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't get any joy out of thinking of the destruction of anybody. 

You say you have no fear of the appeal of God to repent and accept His grace - and I believe you are being honest.  Do you see yourself in this scripture:   "Bold and wilful, they are not afraid to revile the glorious ones, wheras angels, though greater in might and power do not pronounce a reviling judgment on them before the LORD.  But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct,  born to be caught and killed, reviling in matters of which they are ignorant, will be destroyed in the same destruction with them, suffering wrong for their wrongdoing."   I am bringing the warning before the trumpet blast.  Judge for yourself whether I am your friend or a feindish enemy delighting in your doom. 

 

 

 

 

If you're not going to be bothered with reading and discussing what I wrote, then you are simply preaching (this could get you banned - be careful).

You offered me the fear of death as a reason to return to God. I responded by telling you to find another method because death is not something that I fear.

Now you claim that I fear a question. Get off the appeals to fear and find something useful.

I believe you when you say you don't get joy out of anyone's destruction - this is a refreshing change from other Christians I know. I hope you are being truthful in that.

As for your scripture, please don't mistake my not acknowledging your god's authority for hatred of it. I just need more of a reason than fear to follow it. Fear doesn't work as a basis of love between humans - why should it be an essential for love between humans and your god?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Anonymouse
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Oh sorry, I totally forgot

Oh sorry, I totally forgot about all this...

 

Anonymouse wrote:
If I wanted to make assumptions about your character, I wouldn't bother asking you a question.

I did read your rather lengthy answer to a simple yes or no question. You seemed to be suggesting that "in a different age", when receiving "direct verbal instruction from God", a believer would kill an innocent child.

The question was if you would do the same, in this day and age, if you received a direct verbal instruction from god to do so.

If you do not wish to answer this question, simply say so, and I won't bother you again.

 

Your answer :

 

Fonzie wrote:
Neither a "verbal command" nor "kill the innocent" would be consistent with Christ's Life or Message (same thing).  And in these "last days" God has spoken to us through His Son.  "It is finished" - the Way of salvation for man is completely developed, no need for further development or verbal messages.

I see. So god changed his mind about the whole child killing thing, through the medium of his son, as you say.

Beg pardon, but what's to stop god from changing his mind yet again ? If I understand the relationship between god and you correctly, then it's him who's in charge, not you. That means that any interpretation you have of his word, is subject to his approval. In other words, nothing can stop him from changing his mind, least of all you.

So my question still stands. Unanswered.

Btw, if it helps, when you finally answer my question, I have no intention of going "gotcha !", or "hahaha ! I'm better than you ! Tee hee !". I'm merely curious to see if you understand the implications of unquestioning loyalty.

I think you do.

Fonzie wrote:
The young sapling early church had the supporting stake of special gifts of the Spirit - the Spirit spoke to them verbally, they could speak to foreigners in their language without spending time studying the language, heal lepers, etc, but the church doesn't have that scaffold now because we don't need it.

Absolutely no disrespect intended, but since I'm doing my very best to understand you,  it would really help if you stopped talking like a world of warcraft junkie.


Fonzie
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I'M TRYING TO

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 

It would probably be comforting to those carrying the flag of atheism to be convinced that death is oblivion, but that is not the case.  Man is linked to eternity.  Death is nothing but an eyeblink between this life and the next.  "All flesh is grass" and the King does His mowing. 

 

The believers in Christ have their song of victory, "Death where is your sting?"  Death asks that of you atheists - "where will you be when I remove all those and that you enjoy and see and hear and have"?  Your pulse beats like a drum on your march to certain death for which you have no answer. 

 

For the believer in Christ Death has no victory.  The sting of death is sin and sin is forgiven in Christ.  In this life I get to experience the risen LORD in the moment - with no regrets of the past and no fears of the future whatever.  In the next I get to experience the LORD in PERSON.  Think of it:  The ONE Who made you and I and everything good you have ever seen or enjoyed.  The ONE Who loves us the most, for real, for eternity!!! 

 

And you insist on keeping yourselves from it with your great gulf of unbelief!  You may tickle the fancies of those who walk on the same road on this forum, but Death says, "you're mine!"  and you have no answer.  The answer is Christ and will you let your pride exclude you from this great victory??  If so, know that you are judged already - because you do not believe in the KING God has set on His Holy Hill.

Your appeal to fear might be more effective is you used something I was scared of.

Death holds no terrors for me as it does for you and others who need to create an afterlife where everything will be beautiful for you because you believe you've jumped through the right hoops.

Or are you one of those who gets his kicks out of thinking about those who disagree with yoy being punished eternally for their finite crimes?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't get any joy out of thinking of the destruction of anybody. 

You say you have no fear of the appeal of God to repent and accept His grace - and I believe you are being honest.  Do you see yourself in this scripture:   "Bold and wilful, they are not afraid to revile the glorious ones, wheras angels, though greater in might and power do not pronounce a reviling judgment on them before the LORD.  But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct,  born to be caught and killed, reviling in matters of which they are ignorant, will be destroyed in the same destruction with them, suffering wrong for their wrongdoing."   I am bringing the warning before the trumpet blast.  Judge for yourself whether I am your friend or a feindish enemy delighting in your doom. 

 

 

 

 

If you're not going to be bothered with reading and discussing what I wrote, then you are simply preaching (this could get you banned - be careful).

You offered me the fear of death as a reason to return to God. I responded by telling you to find another method because death is not something that I fear.

Now you claim that I fear a question. Get off the appeals to fear and find something useful.

I believe you when you say you don't get joy out of anyone's destruction - this is a refreshing change from other Christians I know. I hope you are being truthful in that.

As for your scripture, please don't mistake my not acknowledging your god's authority for hatred of it. I just need more of a reason than fear to follow it. Fear doesn't work as a basis of love between humans - why should it be an essential for love between humans and your god?

 

 

 

JCGadfly,

Thanks for your clear response.  From my perspective my point was simply the fact that your lack of fear won't save you from consequences if you are wrong.  The toddler might have no fear of a pool or electric wire - but hopefully will be spared from the danger unknown to him.

I have already admitted I can't work a miracle with you - cause you to believe Jesus died willingly for your sin - His death being the death of Death since Death had nothing on Him so He didn't have to die.  He died willingly to pay the price for your sin. I wish I could.

I have a different problem JC - when I read the Scripture it is all totally alive and real to me such that my imagination isn't good enough to understand somebody who has a problem believing it.  Scripture claims to be miraculous and rock.  I'm telling you that is the case with me. 

You may not see fear as a good motivator and we don't get much practice dying but a place in Scripture says; "the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom".  My point in bringing this up is that you may not see it as a good motivator but it's better than none.  If you decided you were going to have Jesus - to the point of revving your engines up and confronting yourself and to a violent determined desire you wouldn't mind whatever motivated you to get what you want.

It is the greatest experience living in the presence of God and Christ.  Don't knock it.  There is a despairing desire in us to connect with God.  Only man can despair because only mankind is made in the image of God - didn't make himself therefore can't achieve completeness without connecting up with the God Who made him.  Connecting with God in Christ - Christ in us the hope of glory - conquers and drives away all despair.  We have a longing for eternity in our minds and hearts.  To know Christ is to know eternal life. 

Jesus allows us to be brought near to God.  In Christ we get to not just "know about" God, but we get to KNOW GOD, because He draws us near in Christ.  We can get to know God in a relaxed way.  He writes His law on our hearts.  It's a miracle and it's true and it could happen to you.  If it did you would be in my position trying to convince the next JCG.

Fonzie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Fonzie
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TRYING AGAIN

Anonymouse wrote:

Oh sorry, I totally forgot about all this...

 

Anonymouse wrote:
If I wanted to make assumptions about your character, I wouldn't bother asking you a question.

I did read your rather lengthy answer to a simple yes or no question. You seemed to be suggesting that "in a different age", when receiving "direct verbal instruction from God", a believer would kill an innocent child.

The question was if you would do the same, in this day and age, if you received a direct verbal instruction from god to do so.

If you do not wish to answer this question, simply say so, and I won't bother you again.

 

Your answer :

 

Fonzie wrote:
Neither a "verbal command" nor "kill the innocent" would be consistent with Christ's Life or Message (same thing).  And in these "last days" God has spoken to us through His Son.  "It is finished" - the Way of salvation for man is completely developed, no need for further development or verbal messages.

I see. So god changed his mind about the whole child killing thing, through the medium of his son, as you say.

Beg pardon, but what's to stop god from changing his mind yet again ? If I understand the relationship between god and you correctly, then it's him who's in charge, not you. That means that any interpretation you have of his word, is subject to his approval. In other words, nothing can stop him from changing his mind, least of all you.

So my question still stands. Unanswered.

Btw, if it helps, when you finally answer my question, I have no intention of going "gotcha !", or "hahaha ! I'm better than you ! Tee hee !". I'm merely curious to see if you understand the implications of unquestioning loyalty.

I think you do.

Fonzie wrote:
The young sapling early church had the supporting stake of special gifts of the Spirit - the Spirit spoke to them verbally, they could speak to foreigners in their language without spending time studying the language, heal lepers, etc, but the church doesn't have that scaffold now because we don't need it.

Absolutely no disrespect intended, but since I'm doing my very best to understand you,  it would really help if you stopped talking like a world of warcraft junkie.

 

Anonymouse,

I think I understand what you're asking.  You can look back at the history of God's working with first, "glorious man" (brand new in the garden) then "fallen man" (kicked out of the garden) and see God did several things.

I understand you would have to suspend your reality to go this far in my framing the context because if I understand your perspective this would be like watching a sci-fi movie to you since you don't believe it.

But God has a plan with man, let's say", and in the process it's not open to heaven or earth what He is about.  He has Noah build a ark, Saul wipe out some cities of Philistines, men women and children, and you are saying if God has these dedicated followers and he sends out an order something is going to happen that isn't politically correct or something.  

 

The way I would answer this, and I understand you don't probably don't accept the scenario I have just described, is that through all this history of God working with man there was a mysterious plan God was giving hints of but nobody knew but Him - and that was: He was going to sacrifice His Only Begotten Son to atone for the sins of man. 

 

This has fulfilled the prophecies.  Like Jesus said on the cross, "It is Finished!".  The Holy Spirit through the writer of Hebrews said that God in many ways spoke in ages past but in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son.

 

The message is set and given through Jesus.  It's the gospel.  It's simple and it's foolish to those who are being lost, but to those being saved it's the wisdom and power of God. 

There are many forms of imaginary excuses why people don't accept the gospel.  Some might imagine there is a lion in the street  or some other excuse, pick what you like to illustrate.  But the message of salvation is set and available to all who believe in Jesus. 

So the message is focused on Jesus.  He lived what He preached.  He died for His people. 

You look at history and see things that God did that neither heaven nor earth understood - I mean the mystery of salvation that He was heading toward.  But that mystery has now been revealed.  In the past it involved Israelites taking the land promised to Abraham's descendants and driving out enemies - killing men, women and children.  It involved building an ark, killing 1000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass, calling fire down from heaven and slaughtering priests of Baal, killing Philistines to get foreskins to pay for marrying the kings daughter, a donkey speaking, a fiery chariot picking Enoch up. 

 

But all of that has come to rest in Christ, the Lamb of God.  The message of God is set.  Believe in Jesus and live.  While it is always possible for a man to become divorced from reality and somebody else to attribute that to God - that is a misrepresentation.  Fall for it to your own loss.  Though the enemy misrepesents it, the message is pure.  Believe in Jesus and live.  Those who hope in Him purify themselves since He is pure.   

 

 

 

 

 

Fonzie

 

 


jcgadfly
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Fonzie wrote:Anonymouse

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

Oh sorry, I totally forgot about all this...

 

Anonymouse wrote:
If I wanted to make assumptions about your character, I wouldn't bother asking you a question.

I did read your rather lengthy answer to a simple yes or no question. You seemed to be suggesting that "in a different age", when receiving "direct verbal instruction from God", a believer would kill an innocent child.

The question was if you would do the same, in this day and age, if you received a direct verbal instruction from god to do so.

If you do not wish to answer this question, simply say so, and I won't bother you again.

 

Your answer :

 

Fonzie wrote:
Neither a "verbal command" nor "kill the innocent" would be consistent with Christ's Life or Message (same thing).  And in these "last days" God has spoken to us through His Son.  "It is finished" - the Way of salvation for man is completely developed, no need for further development or verbal messages.

I see. So god changed his mind about the whole child killing thing, through the medium of his son, as you say.

Beg pardon, but what's to stop god from changing his mind yet again ? If I understand the relationship between god and you correctly, then it's him who's in charge, not you. That means that any interpretation you have of his word, is subject to his approval. In other words, nothing can stop him from changing his mind, least of all you.

So my question still stands. Unanswered.

Btw, if it helps, when you finally answer my question, I have no intention of going "gotcha !", or "hahaha ! I'm better than you ! Tee hee !". I'm merely curious to see if you understand the implications of unquestioning loyalty.

I think you do.

Fonzie wrote:
The young sapling early church had the supporting stake of special gifts of the Spirit - the Spirit spoke to them verbally, they could speak to foreigners in their language without spending time studying the language, heal lepers, etc, but the church doesn't have that scaffold now because we don't need it.

Absolutely no disrespect intended, but since I'm doing my very best to understand you,  it would really help if you stopped talking like a world of warcraft junkie.

 

Anonymouse,

I think I understand what you're asking.  You can look back at the history of God's working with first, "glorious man" (brand new in the garden) then "fallen man" (kicked out of the garden) and see God did several things.

I understand you would have to suspend your reality to go this far in my framing the context because if I understand your perspective this would be like watching a sci-fi movie to you since you don't believe it.

But God has a plan with man, let's say", and in the process it's not open to heaven or earth what He is about.  He has Noah build a ark, Saul wipe out some cities of Philistines, men women and children, and you are saying if God has these dedicated followers and he sends out an order something is going to happen that isn't politically correct or something.  

 

The way I would answer this, and I understand you don't probably don't accept the scenario I have just described, is that through all this history of God working with man there was a mysterious plan God was giving hints of but nobody knew but Him - and that was: He was going to sacrifice His Only Begotten Son to atone for the sins of man. 

 

This has fulfilled the prophecies.  Like Jesus said on the cross, "It is Finished!".  The Holy Spirit through the writer of Hebrews said that God in many ways spoke in ages past but in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son.

 

The message is set and given through Jesus.  It's the gospel.  It's simple and it's foolish to those who are being lost, but to those being saved it's the wisdom and power of God. 

There are many forms of imaginary excuses why people don't accept the gospel.  Some might imagine there is a lion in the street  or some other excuse, pick what you like to illustrate.  But the message of salvation is set and available to all who believe in Jesus. 

So the message is focused on Jesus.  He lived what He preached.  He died for His people. 

You look at history and see things that God did that neither heaven nor earth understood - I mean the mystery of salvation that He was heading toward.  But that mystery has now been revealed.  In the past it involved Israelites taking the land promised to Abraham's descendants and driving out enemies - killing men, women and children.  It involved building an ark, killing 1000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass, calling fire down from heaven and slaughtering priests of Baal, killing Philistines to get foreskins to pay for marrying the kings daughter, a donkey speaking, a fiery chariot picking Enoch up. 

 

But all of that has come to rest in Christ, the Lamb of God.  The message of God is set.  Believe in Jesus and live.  While it is always possible for a man to become divorced from reality and somebody else to attribute that to God - that is a misrepresentation.  Fall for it to your own loss.  Though the enemy misrepesents it, the message is pure.  Believe in Jesus and live.  Those who hope in Him purify themselves since He is pure.   

 

 

 

 

 

Fonzie

 

 

Fonzie,

Doesn't it bother you that God had to break his creation (that he said was good) so he could fix it again?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Anonymouse
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Fonzie

Fonzie wrote:
Anonymouse,

Fonzie,

Fonzie wrote:
I think I understand what you're asking.

You understood the question just fine the first time it was asked. You just haven't answered it yet.

Fonzie wrote:
You can look back at the history of God's working with first, "glorious man" (brand new in the garden) then "fallen man" (kicked out of the garden) and see God did several things.

I understand you would have to suspend your reality to go this far in my framing the context because if I understand your perspective this would be like watching a sci-fi movie to you since you don't believe it.

But God has a plan with man, let's say", and in the process it's not open to heaven or earth what He is about.  He has Noah build a ark, Saul wipe out some cities of Philistines, men women and children, and you are saying if God has these dedicated followers and he sends out an order something is going to happen that isn't politically correct or something.


I'm not talking about political correctness. Didn't even mention it. I'm just asking you if you would kill a child if god asked you too. So far your only attempt at an answer was to claim that god would never ask that anymore, which doesn't work, since god can do whatever he likes, and you are only too happy to obey.

So I'm asking you again : Would you do it, yes or no ?

Fonzie wrote:
The way I would answer this, and I understand you don't probably don't accept the scenario I have just described, is that through all this history of God working with man there was a mysterious plan God was giving hints of but nobody knew but Him - and that was: He was going to sacrifice His Only Begotten Son to atone for the sins of man.

This answers the question : What was god's plan ? I'm pretty sure I didn't ask you that.

Look, what exactly is the problem here ? It's not my fault that the question I asked only has two possible answers. It's your unquestioning loyalty to a supernatural being that makes these kinds of questions relevant in the first place.

And I've already told you, if you don't want to answer the question, if it makes you uncomfortable to consider that situation, just say so and I'll stop asking it.

Fonzie wrote:
This has fulfilled the prophecies.  Like Jesus said on the cross, "It is Finished!".  The Holy Spirit through the writer of Hebrews said that God in many ways spoke in ages past but in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son.

 

The message is set and given through Jesus.  It's the gospel.  It's simple and it's foolish to those who are being lost, but to those being saved it's the wisdom and power of God. 

There are many forms of imaginary excuses why people don't accept the gospel.  Some might imagine there is a lion in the street  or some other excuse, pick what you like to illustrate.  But the message of salvation is set and available to all who believe in Jesus. 

So the message is focused on Jesus.  He lived what He preached.  He died for His people. 

You look at history and see things that God did that neither heaven nor earth understood - I mean the mystery of salvation that He was heading toward.  But that mystery has now been revealed.  In the past it involved Israelites taking the land promised to Abraham's descendants and driving out enemies - killing men, women and children.  It involved building an ark, killing 1000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass, calling fire down from heaven and slaughtering priests of Baal, killing Philistines to get foreskins to pay for marrying the kings daughter, a donkey speaking, a fiery chariot picking Enoch up. 

 

But all of that has come to rest in Christ, the Lamb of God.  The message of God is set.  Believe in Jesus and live.  While it is always possible for a man to become divorced from reality and somebody else to attribute that to God - that is a misrepresentation.  Fall for it to your own loss.  Though the enemy misrepesents it, the message is pure.  Believe in Jesus and live.  Those who hope in Him purify themselves since He is pure.   

 

 

 

 

 

Fonzie

 

 

It really doesn't matter which aspect of your god you choose to obey. By your own definition, god is omnipotent, and on top of that, he moves in mysterious ways you can't begin to comprehend. You don't get to make the rules, he does. That's what this question is all about.

So what if one of those mysterious ways was blocked by an innocent child, and you were asked to clear the way by killing it ? Yes or no ?


Fonzie
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YOU FIRST

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Anonymouse,

Fonzie,

Fonzie wrote:
I think I understand what you're asking.

You understood the question just fine the first time it was asked. You just haven't answered it yet.

Fonzie wrote:
You can look back at the history of God's working with first, "glorious man" (brand new in the garden) then "fallen man" (kicked out of the garden) and see God did several things.

I understand you would have to suspend your reality to go this far in my framing the context because if I understand your perspective this would be like watching a sci-fi movie to you since you don't believe it.

But God has a plan with man, let's say", and in the process it's not open to heaven or earth what He is about.  He has Noah build a ark, Saul wipe out some cities of Philistines, men women and children, and you are saying if God has these dedicated followers and he sends out an order something is going to happen that isn't politically correct or something.


I'm not talking about political correctness. Didn't even mention it. I'm just asking you if you would kill a child if god asked you too. So far your only attempt at an answer was to claim that god would never ask that anymore, which doesn't work, since god can do whatever he likes, and you are only too happy to obey.

So I'm asking you again : Would you do it, yes or no ?

Fonzie wrote:
The way I would answer this, and I understand you don't probably don't accept the scenario I have just described, is that through all this history of God working with man there was a mysterious plan God was giving hints of but nobody knew but Him - and that was: He was going to sacrifice His Only Begotten Son to atone for the sins of man.

This answers the question : What was god's plan ? I'm pretty sure I didn't ask you that.

Look, what exactly is the problem here ? It's not my fault that the question I asked only has two possible answers. It's your unquestioning loyalty to a supernatural being that makes these kinds of questions relevant in the first place.

And I've already told you, if you don't want to answer the question, if it makes you uncomfortable to consider that situation, just say so and I'll stop asking it.

Fonzie wrote:
This has fulfilled the prophecies.  Like Jesus said on the cross, "It is Finished!".  The Holy Spirit through the writer of Hebrews said that God in many ways spoke in ages past but in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son.

 

The message is set and given through Jesus.  It's the gospel.  It's simple and it's foolish to those who are being lost, but to those being saved it's the wisdom and power of God. 

There are many forms of imaginary excuses why people don't accept the gospel.  Some might imagine there is a lion in the street  or some other excuse, pick what you like to illustrate.  But the message of salvation is set and available to all who believe in Jesus. 

So the message is focused on Jesus.  He lived what He preached.  He died for His people. 

You look at history and see things that God did that neither heaven nor earth understood - I mean the mystery of salvation that He was heading toward.  But that mystery has now been revealed.  In the past it involved Israelites taking the land promised to Abraham's descendants and driving out enemies - killing men, women and children.  It involved building an ark, killing 1000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass, calling fire down from heaven and slaughtering priests of Baal, killing Philistines to get foreskins to pay for marrying the kings daughter, a donkey speaking, a fiery chariot picking Enoch up. 

 

But all of that has come to rest in Christ, the Lamb of God.  The message of God is set.  Believe in Jesus and live.  While it is always possible for a man to become divorced from reality and somebody else to attribute that to God - that is a misrepresentation.  Fall for it to your own loss.  Though the enemy misrepesents it, the message is pure.  Believe in Jesus and live.  Those who hope in Him purify themselves since He is pure.   

 

 

 

 

 

Fonzie

 

 

It really doesn't matter which aspect of your god you choose to obey. By your own definition, god is omnipotent, and on top of that, he moves in mysterious ways you can't begin to comprehend. You don't get to make the rules, he does. That's what this question is all about.

So what if one of those mysterious ways was blocked by an innocent child, and you were asked to clear the way by killing it ? Yes or no ?

 

 

Anonymouse,

Are you ready to quit robbing banks?  yes or no?

 

 


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Fonzie,Doesn't it bother you


Fonzie,

Doesn't it bother you that God had to break his creation (that he said was good) so he could fix it again?

 

JCGadfly,

Actually man broke it and  it does bother me.  The fact that God had to let His Son suffer and die moves me greatly. 

The fact that only God could fix it means all the glory is His.  I love that.

 

Fonzie

 


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Fonzie wrote:Fonzie,Doesn't

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie,

Doesn't it bother you that God had to break his creation (that he said was good) so he could fix it again?

 

JCGadfly,

Actually man broke it and  it does bother me.  The fact that God had to let His Son suffer and die moves me greatly. 

The fact that only God could fix it means all the glory is His.  I love that.

 

Fonzie

 

If God hadn't set up the break by creating the tree and the serpent, who knows what would have happened?

God rigged the test knowing in advance that Adam and Eve would fail. God let Jesus suffer and die to satisfy his Old Testament bloodlust.

You're happy that God could fix it - I ask why did he need to break it in the first place?

He made something that by his own admission was good to very good - why screw it up?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote:Anonymouse,Are

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse,

Are you ready to quit robbing banks?  yes or no?

 

 

Fonzie,

That depends on wether you're ever going to answer my question or not. You know, it's funny, but it wasn't even my question in the first place. Somebody else asked it first, didn't get an answer either, so I just picked it up and ran with it. Anybody else wanna take over ? Cuz this could take a while.

Btw, you haven't even begun to think about this. Wether or not I quit robbing banks has nothing to do with a command from a supernatural being. Also, if your clever idea was to ask me a comparable hypothetical question to delay your own answer some more, then you're not doing it right. I'm asking you a question about something that could happen, if your god existed. You're asking me a question about something that's supposedly going on already. A comparable question would be : Would you ever rob a bank ? To which my answer would be : After what they did ? You bet your life,I would. I'm just not gonna, cuz it's illegal, dangerous and dumb, people might get hurt, and I don't need the cash right now.

Anyway, why beat around the bush ? If you want to turn the question around, just ask the same one. Would I kill a child if god asked me to ? No. See how easy that was ? Your turn.

 

One of the things I'm trying to find out with my question, is if your all-powerful, mysterious god, ever makes a move without your approval. Apparently, he doesn't.


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Anonymouse wrote:Fonzie

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse,

Are you ready to quit robbing banks?  yes or no?

 

 

Fonzie,

That depends on wether you're ever going to answer my question or not. You know, it's funny, but it wasn't even my question in the first place. Somebody else asked it first, didn't get an answer either, so I just picked it up and ran with it. Anybody else wanna take over ? Cuz this could take a while.

Btw, you haven't even begun to think about this. Wether or not I quit robbing banks has nothing to do with a command from a supernatural being. Also, if your clever idea was to ask me a comparable hypothetical question to delay your own answer some more, then you're not doing it right. I'm asking you a question about something that could happen, if your god existed. You're asking me a question about something that's supposedly going on already. A comparable question would be : Would you ever rob a bank ? To which my answer would be : After what they did ? You bet your life,I would. I'm just not gonna, cuz it's illegal, dangerous and dumb, people might get hurt, and I don't need the cash right now.

Anyway, why beat around the bush ? If you want to turn the question around, just ask the same one. Would I kill a child if god asked me to ? No. See how easy that was ? Your turn.

 

One of the things I'm trying to find out with my question, is if your all-powerful, mysterious god, ever makes a move without your approval. Apparently, he doesn't.

 

Anonymous,

 

You sure beat around the bush a lot on my question.  All I ask for was a "yes" or "no" answer. 

Q. : Are you ready to stop robbing banks?  Yes or No  

 

It's a simple question Anonymouse.  You went into politics, got personal, tried to bring other people into this - but you didn't answer my question.  I wonder why you are evading it and heading for the high grass?  I haven't ask you how many banks you've robbed or are planning to rob or anything like that.  So just say "yes" or "no" to my question and then we'll talk about it. 

 

 


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AYYYY

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Fonzie,

Doesn't it bother you that God had to break his creation (that he said was good) so he could fix it again?

 

JCGadfly,

Actually man broke it and  it does bother me.  The fact that God had to let His Son suffer and die moves me greatly. 

The fact that only God could fix it means all the glory is His.  I love that.

 

Fonzie

 

If God hadn't set up the break by creating the tree and the serpent, who knows what would have happened?

God rigged the test knowing in advance that Adam and Eve would fail. God let Jesus suffer and die to satisfy his Old Testament bloodlust.

You're happy that God could fix it - I ask why did he need to break it in the first place?

He made something that by his own admission was good to very good - why screw it up?

 

JCGadfly,

I admit I was part of the screwup and I'm happy that God fixed it.  I'm happy about everything God's done past, present and will do.  I love and crave even His discipline.  The line is drawn between us.  I love Jesus and God and everything they have done.  It's all perfect.  And they accept me and my screw ups are paid for by the blood of God's Son.  It will be my joy for all eternity.

You have to decide personally what your heart - decision will be concerning this.  Right now it seems like you are convinced that God is devious and not to be trusted. 

To me there is application in "the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom".  You have no fear of the LORD and you have not started down this path.  I don't say that with a high eyebrow - only trying to answer the call for rescue you mentioned earlier.  If I'm not answering it in the best way - I am at least from my side trying.

 

Fonzie

 


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Fonzie wrote:Anonymouse

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse,

Are you ready to quit robbing banks?  yes or no?

 

 

Fonzie,

That depends on wether you're ever going to answer my question or not. You know, it's funny, but it wasn't even my question in the first place. Somebody else asked it first, didn't get an answer either, so I just picked it up and ran with it. Anybody else wanna take over ? Cuz this could take a while.

Btw, you haven't even begun to think about this. Wether or not I quit robbing banks has nothing to do with a command from a supernatural being. Also, if your clever idea was to ask me a comparable hypothetical question to delay your own answer some more, then you're not doing it right. I'm asking you a question about something that could happen, if your god existed. You're asking me a question about something that's supposedly going on already. A comparable question would be : Would you ever rob a bank ? To which my answer would be : After what they did ? You bet your life,I would. I'm just not gonna, cuz it's illegal, dangerous and dumb, people might get hurt, and I don't need the cash right now.

Anyway, why beat around the bush ? If you want to turn the question around, just ask the same one. Would I kill a child if god asked me to ? No. See how easy that was ? Your turn.

 

One of the things I'm trying to find out with my question, is if your all-powerful, mysterious god, ever makes a move without your approval. Apparently, he doesn't.

 

Anonymous,

 

You sure beat around the bush a lot on my question.  All I ask for was a "yes" or "no" answer. 

Q. : Are you ready to stop robbing banks?  Yes or No  

 

It's a simple question Anonymouse.  You went into politics, got personal, tried to bring other people into this - but you didn't answer my question.  I wonder why you are evading it and heading for the high grass?  I haven't ask you how many banks you've robbed or are planning to rob or anything like that.  So just say "yes" or "no" to my question and then we'll talk about it. 

 

 

Why do you want him to waste time on a loaded question?

What it comes down to is "Are your more moral than your God?". I believe you are because there are apparently actions that you will not take that your God has taken (if you believe the Bible true).

If you are already more moral than your God, why do you bother worshipping him in the hopes that you will become more moral?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote:Anonymous,

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymous,

Fonzi,

 

Fonzie wrote:
You sure beat around the bush a lot on my question.  All I ask for was a "yes" or "no" answer. 

Lol, you've got some nerve, I'll give you that much.

Fonzie wrote:
Q. : Are you ready to stop robbing banks?  Yes or No
 

Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry , I mean YES.

Fonzie wrote:
It's a simple question Anonymouse.  You went into politics, got personal, tried to bring other people into this
 

Actually, I did none of those things. I simply asked you a question. Which you still haven't answered.

Fonzie wrote:
- but you didn't answer my question.  I wonder why you are evading it and heading for the high grass? 
 

I was hoping to find you there.

Fonzie wrote:
I haven't ask you how many banks you've robbed or are planning to rob or anything like that.  So just say "yes" or "no" to my question and then we'll talk about it.
 

You mean you're going to start playing word games, and then claim I was doing the same, even though my question is in no way comparable to yours, as I have already explained ?

Yeah, let's do that. That should be good for another 5 posts or so in which you don't answer the question.

The longer you drag this out, the more it becomes clear that it doesn't "work" for you at all.

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:Anonymouse

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse,

Are you ready to quit robbing banks?  yes or no?

 

 

Fonzie,

That depends on wether you're ever going to answer my question or not. You know, it's funny, but it wasn't even my question in the first place. Somebody else asked it first, didn't get an answer either, so I just picked it up and ran with it. Anybody else wanna take over ? Cuz this could take a while.

Btw, you haven't even begun to think about this. Wether or not I quit robbing banks has nothing to do with a command from a supernatural being. Also, if your clever idea was to ask me a comparable hypothetical question to delay your own answer some more, then you're not doing it right. I'm asking you a question about something that could happen, if your god existed. You're asking me a question about something that's supposedly going on already. A comparable question would be : Would you ever rob a bank ? To which my answer would be : After what they did ? You bet your life,I would. I'm just not gonna, cuz it's illegal, dangerous and dumb, people might get hurt, and I don't need the cash right now.

Anyway, why beat around the bush ? If you want to turn the question around, just ask the same one. Would I kill a child if god asked me to ? No. See how easy that was ? Your turn.

 

One of the things I'm trying to find out with my question, is if your all-powerful, mysterious god, ever makes a move without your approval. Apparently, he doesn't.

 

Anonymous,

 

You sure beat around the bush a lot on my question.  All I ask for was a "yes" or "no" answer. 

Q. : Are you ready to stop robbing banks?  Yes or No  

 

It's a simple question Anonymouse.  You went into politics, got personal, tried to bring other people into this - but you didn't answer my question.  I wonder why you are evading it and heading for the high grass?  I haven't ask you how many banks you've robbed or are planning to rob or anything like that.  So just say "yes" or "no" to my question and then we'll talk about it. 

 

 

Fonzie, that's a logical fallacy.  It's called a loaded question.  It makes an assumption that your interlocutor has previously robbed banks.  It is not appropriate and it is illogical to think that it can be answered with a yes or a no.

This question, 'So what if one of those mysterious ways was blocked by an innocent child, and you were asked to clear the way by killing it ? Yes or no ?' however, is not loaded.  It is a question that can readily be answered by a yes or a no.  Perhaps with extra qualifications following the answer, but certainly with a yes or a no.

It is in the same vein as the following question.

'Would you like bacon with your eggs?'

'Yes, but only if the bacon is par-cooked.'

See it's easy.  You could answer with someone like, 'Yes, but only if it were undeniably god asking me to do that thing as in the case of that guy in that biblical story.'

See, it's easy. Smiling

Why do you have such a reluctance to answer the question?

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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ANSWER

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymous,

Fonzi,

 

Fonzie wrote:
You sure beat around the bush a lot on my question.  All I ask for was a "yes" or "no" answer. 

Lol, you've got some nerve, I'll give you that much.

Fonzie wrote:
Q. : Are you ready to stop robbing banks?  Yes or No
 

Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry , I mean YES.

Fonzie wrote:
It's a simple question Anonymouse.  You went into politics, got personal, tried to bring other people into this
 

Actually, I did none of those things. I simply asked you a question. Which you still haven't answered.

Fonzie wrote:
- but you didn't answer my question.  I wonder why you are evading it and heading for the high grass? 
 

I was hoping to find you there.

Fonzie wrote:
I haven't ask you how many banks you've robbed or are planning to rob or anything like that.  So just say "yes" or "no" to my question and then we'll talk about it.
 

You mean you're going to start playing word games, and then claim I was doing the same, even though my question is in no way comparable to yours, as I have already explained ?

Yeah, let's do that. That should be good for another 5 posts or so in which you don't answer the question.

The longer you drag this out, the more it becomes clear that it doesn't "work" for you at all.

 

 

 

 

Anonymouse,

 

I didn't mean to mispell your handle there Anonymouse, sorry about that. 

Your question is, the way I understand it, this:  If God (the real God, the Creator of the universe, the Father of Jesus Christ) told me to kill a innocent baby or child - would I or would I not do it. 

To answer this I would have to journey in time back to Abraham when God told Abraham to go sacrifice his son on a mountain, which turns out to be where the temple was eventually built.  I can't say if I would have been faithful like Abraham, but I hope I would.  As you know God didn't require of Abraham what He required of Himself in sacrificing Jesus. 

Solomon acted like he would sacrifice a innocent baby to discover the mother - but he didn't. 

Kings of Israel were at times instructed to wipe out whole villages, which they did.  I would hope I would have followed instructions. 

Today however there are no such "live broadcasts".  God could do it if He wanted to but He has capped off the messages by speaking to us through His Son Jesus. 

So the answer is this:  I am not going to get ANY direct message from God, least of all your hypothetical example. 

 

Fonzie


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Fonzie, Are you really

Fonzie, Are you really saying that you don't know whether you'd be moral enough not to kill a baby because God hasn't asked you that yet?

That's a no-brainer for me. No, I wouldn't kill a baby for any god. That makes far more moral than all of them.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote:Anonymouse,Hey

Fonzie wrote:
Anonymouse,

Hey Fonzie !

 

Fonzie wrote:
I didn't mean to mispell your handle there Anonymouse, sorry about that. 

You answer the question, you can call me whatever you like.

Fonzie wrote:
Your question is, the way I understand it, this:  If God (the real God, the Creator of the universe, the Father of Jesus Christ) told me to kill a innocent baby or child - would I or would I not do it.

Look, it's a simple question, no matter which way you look at it. The way you understand it and the way I put it really shouldn't be that far apart.

Fonzie wrote:
To answer this I would have to journey in time back to Abraham when God told Abraham....

No, you wouldn't. I'm not asking Abraham, I'm asking you.

Fonzie wrote:
I would hope I would have followed instructions.

So you're saying you're not sure what you would do ? That's your answer ?  That doesn't fit with "it works for me".

Fonzie wrote:
Today however there are no such "live broadcasts".

Sez you. Other christians have succesfully claimed otherwise. Liars, all of them ? Will you tell them, or shall I ?

Fonzie wrote:
God could do it if He wanted to

Exactly ! I'm glad you finally admitted that. That's why I can ask you this question.

Fonzie wrote:
but He has capped off the messages by speaking to us through His Son Jesus.

Again, sez you. And you're not god. That's simply your interpretation of "it's finished". Did god appear before you and tell you that's what it meant ? Ah right, he couldn't have, could he ? You painted yourself into a corner there.

Fonzie wrote:
So the answer is this:  I am not going to get ANY direct message from God, least of all your hypothetical example. 

You already tried that, and I already explained why that doesn't work. You don't get to say what god does or doesn't do. He's not your puppet. Which means the question still stands, and you haven't answered it yet.

Unless we go with "I'm not sure", which frankly sounds a bit sinister to me.


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GREAT GULF ECHO

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie, Are you really saying that you don't know whether you'd be moral enough not to kill a baby because God hasn't asked you that yet?

That's a no-brainer for me. No, I wouldn't kill a baby for any god. That makes far more moral than all of them.

 

JCGadfly,

No.  We are talking across a great gulf here.  You don't believe in God or know God or take counsel with God or experience God or you wouldn't be making such mischaracterizations of Him.  I would say you don't trust Him because you don't know Him, and perhaps may even sense that He is your Enemy at the present and you can't trust in an Enemy.  If you do sense that, know that it is true; however, your current Enemy, God, has sacrificed His Innocent, Perfect Son in order to offer you grace and destroy this enmity between you and Him.  He has offered you a Way across the gulf you refuse, and you mock me for being on the opposite side of your perspective, your counsel of thought, your counsel of conscience, and your counsel of experience.  Eventually you will either take the Way across the gulf and see yourself as having been a fool for staying where you are now for so long, or will see it when thrown into the eternal fire for accepting a lie from Satan.  I think the worst snare of despair is the snare of "nothingness" with the hint of the idea that you are wrong in your position.  You thus mock me for my trust in God to keep that sense you are wrong from making you jump ship, since you don't think you want to.  The Innocent has already been killed - and good news!!  The killing of the Innocent is the Death of Death!!  He Lives!!  He is ready to call you friend and draw you near, and live in you. While we were enemies Christ died for the unrighteous.  The only enemy you have in the way is you and your heart's unbelief.  If you were cut to the heart by the Holy Spirit revealing this to you you could be healed and comforted by the same Holy Spirit and have your eyes opened to God and His law be written on your heart and these doubts would vanish.  It would be heart surgery done by the Great Physician.  But now there's this gulf.......  hello?  I'm not killing babies over here....  hello?  

 

Fonzie


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GRAND CANYON ANOTHER VIEW

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Anonymouse,

Hey Fonzie !

 

Fonzie wrote:
I didn't mean to mispell your handle there Anonymouse, sorry about that. 

You answer the question, you can call me whatever you like.

Fonzie wrote:
Your question is, the way I understand it, this:  If God (the real God, the Creator of the universe, the Father of Jesus Christ) told me to kill a innocent baby or child - would I or would I not do it.

Look, it's a simple question, no matter which way you look at it. The way you understand it and the way I put it really shouldn't be that far apart.

Fonzie wrote:
To answer this I would have to journey in time back to Abraham when God told Abraham....

No, you wouldn't. I'm not asking Abraham, I'm asking you.

Fonzie wrote:
I would hope I would have followed instructions.

So you're saying you're not sure what you would do ? That's your answer ?  That doesn't fit with "it works for me".

Fonzie wrote:
Today however there are no such "live broadcasts".

Sez you. Other christians have succesfully claimed otherwise. Liars, all of them ? Will you tell them, or shall I ?

Fonzie wrote:
God could do it if He wanted to

Exactly ! I'm glad you finally admitted that. That's why I can ask you this question.

Fonzie wrote:
but He has capped off the messages by speaking to us through His Son Jesus.

Again, sez you. And you're not god. That's simply your interpretation of "it's finished". Did god appear before you and tell you that's what it meant ? Ah right, he couldn't have, could he ? You painted yourself into a corner there.

Fonzie wrote:
So the answer is this:  I am not going to get ANY direct message from God, least of all your hypothetical example. 

You already tried that, and I already explained why that doesn't work. You don't get to say what god does or doesn't do. He's not your puppet. Which means the question still stands, and you haven't answered it yet.

Unless we go with "I'm not sure", which frankly sounds a bit sinister to me.

 

Anonymouse,

In this case the great gulf between us is manifest in my thinking I have answered your question and you thinking I haven't. 

It's really no different than the fact that you don't believe in God and Jesus and I do.  This difference between us goes very deep.  It could come out in you mocking what I believe, see as important, see as enjoyable, see as true, see as the right view of myself and the world around me - or it could be from my side seeing you as totally missing out, not experiencing what I see as true joy and enjoyment, not having the real hopes I have, not seeing courage as I see it, not seeing death as I see it.  Whatever we discuss this gulf is there between us and I don't deny it.  There are some things that are totally real to me that I am not able to get across to you.  I would like to, but in order for us to have the kind of fellowship that I have with other believers who are in Christ you would have to take the Way across that gulf and it would be a personal miracle between you and God and Christ.  I wish I could perform it but I can't.  I'm not surprised by this problem of communication we are having, because again there is this gulf between us.  I have been on that side before and experienced this miracle.  It "works for me" and is working.  I may not be justified in your eyes, but I don't need to be if I am justified in God's.  As far as the "live broadcast", again you didn't understand.  Christ and God and the Holy Spirit are living in me, that's "live", but the message is finished.  God has spoken to us in His Son.  The Word of God has been delivered in its entirety.  The "Living Word" is living in Christians.  You're missing out.  Know that you're welcome though.  

 

 

 

 

Fonzie

 

 

 


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FOR BREAKFAST

Thomathy wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse,

Are you ready to quit robbing banks?  yes or no?

 

 

Fonzie,

That depends on wether you're ever going to answer my question or not. You know, it's funny, but it wasn't even my question in the first place. Somebody else asked it first, didn't get an answer either, so I just picked it up and ran with it. Anybody else wanna take over ? Cuz this could take a while.

Btw, you haven't even begun to think about this. Wether or not I quit robbing banks has nothing to do with a command from a supernatural being. Also, if your clever idea was to ask me a comparable hypothetical question to delay your own answer some more, then you're not doing it right. I'm asking you a question about something that could happen, if your god existed. You're asking me a question about something that's supposedly going on already. A comparable question would be : Would you ever rob a bank ? To which my answer would be : After what they did ? You bet your life,I would. I'm just not gonna, cuz it's illegal, dangerous and dumb, people might get hurt, and I don't need the cash right now.

Anyway, why beat around the bush ? If you want to turn the question around, just ask the same one. Would I kill a child if god asked me to ? No. See how easy that was ? Your turn.

 

One of the things I'm trying to find out with my question, is if your all-powerful, mysterious god, ever makes a move without your approval. Apparently, he doesn't.

 

Anonymous,

 

You sure beat around the bush a lot on my question.  All I ask for was a "yes" or "no" answer. 

Q. : Are you ready to stop robbing banks?  Yes or No  

 

It's a simple question Anonymouse.  You went into politics, got personal, tried to bring other people into this - but you didn't answer my question.  I wonder why you are evading it and heading for the high grass?  I haven't ask you how many banks you've robbed or are planning to rob or anything like that.  So just say "yes" or "no" to my question and then we'll talk about it. 

 

 

Fonzie, that's a logical fallacy.  It's called a loaded question.  It makes an assumption that your interlocutor has previously robbed banks.  It is not appropriate and it is illogical to think that it can be answered with a yes or a no.

This question, 'So what if one of those mysterious ways was blocked by an innocent child, and you were asked to clear the way by killing it ? Yes or no ?' however, is not loaded.  It is a question that can readily be answered by a yes or a no.  Perhaps with extra qualifications following the answer, but certainly with a yes or a no.

It is in the same vein as the following question.

'Would you like bacon with your eggs?'

'Yes, but only if the bacon is par-cooked.'

See it's easy.  You could answer with someone like, 'Yes, but only if it were undeniably god asking me to do that thing as in the case of that guy in that biblical story.'

See, it's easy. Smiling

Why do you have such a reluctance to answer the question?

 

Thomathy,

Nice to hear from you and I have noticed too some questions can't be answered with "yes" or "no" when spring loaded.  I think I have covered your concerns in my answers to JCGadfly and Anonymouse, but I would add that I do love bacon and eggs, toast, peanut butter (extra chunky) and orange juice every morning for breakfast.  Plenty of salt and pepper on the eggs. 

 

Fonzie  

 

 

 


Anonymouse
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Fonzie

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse,

Hullo again.

Fonzie wrote:
In this case the great gulf between us is manifest in my thinking I have answered your question and you thinking I haven't. 

There really is no need for all this flowery language. There is no "great gulf manifest". There's just me asking you a question, then explaining to you why avoiding it doesn't work, and then there's you ignoring all that yet again.

Fonzie wrote:
It's really no different than the fact that you don't believe in God and Jesus and I do. This difference between us goes very deep.

What I believe or don't believe cannot possibly stop you answering a simple question. And you believing what you do, doesn't suddenly make contradictions possible.

Fonzie wrote:
It could come out in you mocking what I believe, see as important, see as enjoyable, see as true, see as the right view of myself and the world around me -

I have no interest in mocking you. I just want my question answered.

Fonzie wrote:
or it could be from my side seeing you as totally missing out, not experiencing what I see as true joy and enjoyment, not having the real hopes I have, not seeing courage as I see it, not seeing death as I see it.

You don't have the faintest idea how I see all those things, because that was not what we were discussing. We were talking about my question, which you didn't answer. I have already explained why claiming that the question would never come up doesn't work. Your own definition of god makes that impossible.

Fonzie wrote:
Whatever we discuss this gulf is there between us and I don't deny it.

Look, tell you what, after you answer the question, then we'll talk about your gulf for as long as you want, okay ?

Fonzie wrote:
There are some things that are totally real to me that I am not able to get across to you.

Fine. I'm not actually asking you a question about any of those things.

Fonzie wrote:
I would like to, but in order for us to have the kind of fellowship that I have with other believers who are in Christ you would have to take the Way across that gulf and it would be a personal miracle between you and God and Christ.

You seem to be under the impression that all people who do that end up on the same side of the fence (or "gulf", whatever). They don't. We can talk about that when you answer the question.

Fonzie wrote:
I wish I could perform it but I can't.  I'm not surprised by this problem of communication we are having, because again there is this gulf between us.

Like I said, I'm willing to discuss your gulf in detail once you answer the question.

Fonzie wrote:
I have been on that side before and experienced this miracle.  It "works for me" and is working.

Well, no, it doesn't. You can't have an all-powerful god who's limited by your personal interpretation of a written text. You can believe all you want, that doesn't make it a possible situation. If that contradiction could exist, then it would be perfectly possible for you to torture innocent kids to death and still be a good christian. Now I know there are people who believe that, but I was kinda hoping you didn't.

Fonzie wrote:
I may not be justified in your eyes, but I don't need to be if I am justified in God's.

Fine, I'll put it like that then : If you killing innocent kids is justified in god's eyes, is it then also justified for you ? I'm just turning your own claim into a question now. You can't possibly dodge this as well.

Fonzie wrote:
As far as the "live broadcast", again you didn't understand.  Christ and God and the Holy Spirit are living in me, that's "live", but the message is finished.  God has spoken to us in His Son.  The Word of God has been delivered in its entirety.  The "Living Word" is living in Christians.

Again, you don't get to say that the message is finished. Your god is all-powerful so he can change his mind. You're not all-powerful, so your interpretation of any holy text (if it's even holy in the first place) can be flawed and completely wrong. All this creates the hypothetical situation I asked you a question about. You can't use your belief to make that question go away. Your belief is what makes it possible in the first place.

Fonzie wrote:
You're missing out.  Know that you're welcome though. 

Same to you.

 

Okay, quick re-cap :

The question is this : Would you kill an innocent child if god asked you to ? Saying the question will never come up doesn't work, because god's all powerful and you don't get to decide what he does.

You can also put it like this : If you killing innocent kids is justified in god's eyes, is it then also justified for you ?

Other things to remember : I'm not interested in mocking you, and I'm prefectly willing to discuss any hypothetical gulf between us once you answer the question.

 

All the best to you,

 

Anonymouse

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie, Are you really saying that you don't know whether you'd be moral enough not to kill a baby because God hasn't asked you that yet?

That's a no-brainer for me. No, I wouldn't kill a baby for any god. That makes far more moral than all of them.

 

JCGadfly,

No.  We are talking across a great gulf here.  You don't believe in God or know God or take counsel with God or experience God or you wouldn't be making such mischaracterizations of Him.  I would say you don't trust Him because you don't know Him, and perhaps may even sense that He is your Enemy at the present and you can't trust in an Enemy.  If you do sense that, know that it is true; however, your current Enemy, God, has sacrificed His Innocent, Perfect Son in order to offer you grace and destroy this enmity between you and Him.  He has offered you a Way across the gulf you refuse, and you mock me for being on the opposite side of your perspective, your counsel of thought, your counsel of conscience, and your counsel of experience.  Eventually you will either take the Way across the gulf and see yourself as having been a fool for staying where you are now for so long, or will see it when thrown into the eternal fire for accepting a lie from Satan.  I think the worst snare of despair is the snare of "nothingness" with the hint of the idea that you are wrong in your position.  You thus mock me for my trust in God to keep that sense you are wrong from making you jump ship, since you don't think you want to.  The Innocent has already been killed - and good news!!  The killing of the Innocent is the Death of Death!!  He Lives!!  He is ready to call you friend and draw you near, and live in you. While we were enemies Christ died for the unrighteous.  The only enemy you have in the way is you and your heart's unbelief.  If you were cut to the heart by the Holy Spirit revealing this to you you could be healed and comforted by the same Holy Spirit and have your eyes opened to God and His law be written on your heart and these doubts would vanish.  It would be heart surgery done by the Great Physician.  But now there's this gulf.......  hello?  I'm not killing babies over here....  hello?  

 

Fonzie

As I asked before, are the babies safe because your God hasn't asked you to do it yet or because there is something inside of you that finds that abhorrent?

If the latter, than you are more moral than God as he had no such compunctions about doing it himself or hiring others.

I thought you'd actually read your Bible. I guess you just picked out the pretty parts.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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YES - IN FACT I DID

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse,

Hullo again.

Fonzie wrote:
In this case the great gulf between us is manifest in my thinking I have answered your question and you thinking I haven't. 

There really is no need for all this flowery language. There is no "great gulf manifest". There's just me asking you a question, then explaining to you why avoiding it doesn't work, and then there's you ignoring all that yet again.

Fonzie wrote:
It's really no different than the fact that you don't believe in God and Jesus and I do. This difference between us goes very deep.

What I believe or don't believe cannot possibly stop you answering a simple question. And you believing what you do, doesn't suddenly make contradictions possible.

Fonzie wrote:
It could come out in you mocking what I believe, see as important, see as enjoyable, see as true, see as the right view of myself and the world around me -

I have no interest in mocking you. I just want my question answered.

Fonzie wrote:
or it could be from my side seeing you as totally missing out, not experiencing what I see as true joy and enjoyment, not having the real hopes I have, not seeing courage as I see it, not seeing death as I see it.

You don't have the faintest idea how I see all those things, because that was not what we were discussing. We were talking about my question, which you didn't answer. I have already explained why claiming that the question would never come up doesn't work. Your own definition of god makes that impossible.

Fonzie wrote:
Whatever we discuss this gulf is there between us and I don't deny it.

Look, tell you what, after you answer the question, then we'll talk about your gulf for as long as you want, okay ?

Fonzie wrote:
There are some things that are totally real to me that I am not able to get across to you.

Fine. I'm not actually asking you a question about any of those things.

Fonzie wrote:
I would like to, but in order for us to have the kind of fellowship that I have with other believers who are in Christ you would have to take the Way across that gulf and it would be a personal miracle between you and God and Christ.

You seem to be under the impression that all people who do that end up on the same side of the fence (or "gulf", whatever). They don't. We can talk about that when you answer the question.

Fonzie wrote:
I wish I could perform it but I can't.  I'm not surprised by this problem of communication we are having, because again there is this gulf between us.

Like I said, I'm willing to discuss your gulf in detail once you answer the question.

Fonzie wrote:
I have been on that side before and experienced this miracle.  It "works for me" and is working.

Well, no, it doesn't. You can't have an all-powerful god who's limited by your personal interpretation of a written text. You can believe all you want, that doesn't make it a possible situation. If that contradiction could exist, then it would be perfectly possible for you to torture innocent kids to death and still be a good christian. Now I know there are people who believe that, but I was kinda hoping you didn't.

Fonzie wrote:
I may not be justified in your eyes, but I don't need to be if I am justified in God's.

Fine, I'll put it like that then : If you killing innocent kids is justified in god's eyes, is it then also justified for you ? I'm just turning your own claim into a question now. You can't possibly dodge this as well.

Fonzie wrote:
As far as the "live broadcast", again you didn't understand.  Christ and God and the Holy Spirit are living in me, that's "live", but the message is finished.  God has spoken to us in His Son.  The Word of God has been delivered in its entirety.  The "Living Word" is living in Christians.

Again, you don't get to say that the message is finished. Your god is all-powerful so he can change his mind. You're not all-powerful, so your interpretation of any holy text (if it's even holy in the first place) can be flawed and completely wrong. All this creates the hypothetical situation I asked you a question about. You can't use your belief to make that question go away. Your belief is what makes it possible in the first place.

Fonzie wrote:
You're missing out.  Know that you're welcome though. 

Same to you.

 

Okay, quick re-cap :

The question is this : Would you kill an innocent child if god asked you to ? Saying the question will never come up doesn't work, because god's all powerful and you don't get to decide what he does.

You can also put it like this : If you killing innocent kids is justified in god's eyes, is it then also justified for you ?

Other things to remember : I'm not interested in mocking you, and I'm prefectly willing to discuss any hypothetical gulf between us once you answer the question.

 

All the best to you,

 

Anonymouse

 

 

 

ANONYMOUSE -

Yes, in fact the innocent has already died so I can live.  I am responsible for the most innocent life that ever died.

 

Fonzie

 

 

 

 


jcgadfly
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Fonzie wrote:Anonymouse

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse,

Hullo again.

Fonzie wrote:
In this case the great gulf between us is manifest in my thinking I have answered your question and you thinking I haven't. 

There really is no need for all this flowery language. There is no "great gulf manifest". There's just me asking you a question, then explaining to you why avoiding it doesn't work, and then there's you ignoring all that yet again.

Fonzie wrote:
It's really no different than the fact that you don't believe in God and Jesus and I do. This difference between us goes very deep.

What I believe or don't believe cannot possibly stop you answering a simple question. And you believing what you do, doesn't suddenly make contradictions possible.

Fonzie wrote:
It could come out in you mocking what I believe, see as important, see as enjoyable, see as true, see as the right view of myself and the world around me -

I have no interest in mocking you. I just want my question answered.

Fonzie wrote:
or it could be from my side seeing you as totally missing out, not experiencing what I see as true joy and enjoyment, not having the real hopes I have, not seeing courage as I see it, not seeing death as I see it.

You don't have the faintest idea how I see all those things, because that was not what we were discussing. We were talking about my question, which you didn't answer. I have already explained why claiming that the question would never come up doesn't work. Your own definition of god makes that impossible.

Fonzie wrote:
Whatever we discuss this gulf is there between us and I don't deny it.

Look, tell you what, after you answer the question, then we'll talk about your gulf for as long as you want, okay ?

Fonzie wrote:
There are some things that are totally real to me that I am not able to get across to you.

Fine. I'm not actually asking you a question about any of those things.

Fonzie wrote:
I would like to, but in order for us to have the kind of fellowship that I have with other believers who are in Christ you would have to take the Way across that gulf and it would be a personal miracle between you and God and Christ.

You seem to be under the impression that all people who do that end up on the same side of the fence (or "gulf", whatever). They don't. We can talk about that when you answer the question.

Fonzie wrote:
I wish I could perform it but I can't.  I'm not surprised by this problem of communication we are having, because again there is this gulf between us.

Like I said, I'm willing to discuss your gulf in detail once you answer the question.

Fonzie wrote:
I have been on that side before and experienced this miracle.  It "works for me" and is working.

Well, no, it doesn't. You can't have an all-powerful god who's limited by your personal interpretation of a written text. You can believe all you want, that doesn't make it a possible situation. If that contradiction could exist, then it would be perfectly possible for you to torture innocent kids to death and still be a good christian. Now I know there are people who believe that, but I was kinda hoping you didn't.

Fonzie wrote:
I may not be justified in your eyes, but I don't need to be if I am justified in God's.

Fine, I'll put it like that then : If you killing innocent kids is justified in god's eyes, is it then also justified for you ? I'm just turning your own claim into a question now. You can't possibly dodge this as well.

Fonzie wrote:
As far as the "live broadcast", again you didn't understand.  Christ and God and the Holy Spirit are living in me, that's "live", but the message is finished.  God has spoken to us in His Son.  The Word of God has been delivered in its entirety.  The "Living Word" is living in Christians.

Again, you don't get to say that the message is finished. Your god is all-powerful so he can change his mind. You're not all-powerful, so your interpretation of any holy text (if it's even holy in the first place) can be flawed and completely wrong. All this creates the hypothetical situation I asked you a question about. You can't use your belief to make that question go away. Your belief is what makes it possible in the first place.

Fonzie wrote:
You're missing out.  Know that you're welcome though. 

Same to you.

 

Okay, quick re-cap :

The question is this : Would you kill an innocent child if god asked you to ? Saying the question will never come up doesn't work, because god's all powerful and you don't get to decide what he does.

You can also put it like this : If you killing innocent kids is justified in god's eyes, is it then also justified for you ?

Other things to remember : I'm not interested in mocking you, and I'm prefectly willing to discuss any hypothetical gulf between us once you answer the question.

 

All the best to you,

 

Anonymouse

 

 

 

ANONYMOUSE -

Yes, in fact the innocent has already died so I can live.  I am responsible for the most innocent life that ever died.

 

Fonzie

 

 

 

 

So Jesus isn't God to you? Just some schmuck God took pleasure in destroying?

You don't need to answer - doesn't look good for God either way.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Anonymouse
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Anonymouse wrote:Okay, quick

Anonymouse wrote:

Okay, quick re-cap :

The question is this : Would you kill an innocent child if god asked you to ? Saying the question will never come up doesn't work, because god's all powerful and you don't get to decide what he does.

You can also put it like this : If you killing innocent kids is justified in god's eyes, is it then also justified for you ?

 

Fonzie wrote:
ANONYMOUSE -

Yikes ! Capitals ! This is gonna be important...

Fonzie wrote:
Yes,

About bloody time.

Just to be absolutely sure, that's yes to both questions then ? You would kill the kids if god asked, and if it's justified killing them in god's eyes, then it's justified for you too ?

Sorry for rubbing it in, but after all that dodging, you can't really blame me for me for checking.

Fonzie wrote:
in fact the innocent has already died so I can live.  I am responsible for the most innocent life that ever died.

I suppose that's a reference to jesus ? Well, okay, you did finally answer the question, so you're allowed to tag on any message you like.

Fonzie wrote:
Fonzie

Been nice talking to you. Too bad for the hypothetical kids who are are now hypothetically dead. It's a shame you ended up killing them, as they did nothing wrong, but at least you were conflicted about it.

That's a start, I guess.

 

 

 

 


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 Anonymouse, If you could

 

Anonymouse,

 

If you could comprehend God - He would be beneath you.  You don't.  He isn't.

 

Perhaps your god could be said to be a bunch of questions you make up that you can't find or accept answers for that keep you like a leaf in a whirlwind - going nowhere, just flapping in circles.  If you want to define that as substance and that works for you, fine.  In Paul's day that was a Greek thing - guys standing around the Acropolis just wanting to hear something new.  (Like the philosophy class that couldn't ever get past the role call because they were arguing about whether they were "here" or not.)

 

Christ, the Lamb of God, "God- made- flesh", Who willingly died for the sins of all who would believe in Him, has risen from the dead and lives in Me.  I experience Him.  I can't comprehend Him hardly at all compared to Who He is totally, but I am continually astounded at Him and love and marvel at everything He is doing - some of which I see and understand and some that I don't know anything about but know is right.  It's a disadvantage of being a human to not know what all God is doing, but without God nothing is enjoyable.  With God anything is enjoyable and goes where I want to go - even suffering vexing people.

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:Anonymouse,Hiya

Fonzie wrote:

Anonymouse,

Hiya !

 

Fonzie wrote:
If you could comprehend God - He would be beneath you.  You don't.  He isn't.

Well, you're the expert, so okay, sure, no problem.

 

Fonzie wrote:
Perhaps your god could be said to be a bunch of questions you make up that you can't find or accept answers for that keep you like a leaf in a whirlwind - going nowhere, just flapping in circles.

Well, it was a bit like a whirlwind for a while, what with you dodging the question all over the place and back again, but you did finally answer it. Thanks again !

 

Fonzie wrote:
  If you want to define that as substance and that works for you, fine.

If it's all the same to you, I'd like to define it as asking a question and getting an answer. Sometimes being accurate is more important than finding something that "works" for you.

 

Fonzie wrote:
In Paul's day that was a Greek thing - guys standing around the Acropolis just wanting to hear something new.  (Like the philosophy class that couldn't ever get past the role call because they were arguing about whether they were "here" or not.)

I've never been in a philosophy class, and if that's what they do there, I think I won't bother. Thanks for the warning.

 

Fonzie wrote:
Christ, the Lamb of God, "God- made- flesh", Who willingly died for the sins of all who would believe in Him, has risen from the dead and lives in Me.  I experience Him.

Right. Okay.

 

Fonzie wrote:
I can't comprehend Him hardly at all compared to Who He is totally, but I am continually astounded at Him and love and marvel at everything He is doing - some of which I see and understand and some that I don't know anything about but know is right.

Right. Like not knowing anything about why the innocent kids have to die, but killing them anyway because god sed so, and therefore it's right. Really Fonzie, you can describe that situation any way you like, it still ends with dead kids who never did anything to you.

Fonzie wrote:
  It's a disadvantage of being a human to not know what all God is doing, but without God nothing is enjoyable.  With God anything is enjoyable

You know, I was really hoping you wouldn't actually enjoy the god-sanctioned childkilling.

Fonzie wrote:
and goes where I want to go

Er, no. We've been over that : God goes where he wants to go, not where you want to go. God's all powerful, you're not.

Fonzie wrote:
- even suffering vexing people.

Even atheists have to suffer vexing people, Fonzie.

 


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Fonzie

Fonzie wrote:

 

Anonymouse,

 

If you could comprehend God - He would be beneath you.  You don't.  He isn't.

 

Perhaps your god could be said to be a bunch of questions you make up that you can't find or accept answers for that keep you like a leaf in a whirlwind - going nowhere, just flapping in circles.  If you want to define that as substance and that works for you, fine.  In Paul's day that was a Greek thing - guys standing around the Acropolis just wanting to hear something new.  (Like the philosophy class that couldn't ever get past the role call because they were arguing about whether they were "here" or not.)

 

Christ, the Lamb of God, "God- made- flesh", Who willingly died for the sins of all who would believe in Him, has risen from the dead and lives in Me.  I experience Him.  I can't comprehend Him hardly at all compared to Who He is totally, but I am continually astounded at Him and love and marvel at everything He is doing - some of which I see and understand and some that I don't know anything about but know is right.  It's a disadvantage of being a human to not know what all God is doing, but without God nothing is enjoyable.  With God anything is enjoyable and goes where I want to go - even suffering vexing people.

 

 

Ah, the "God is so awesome that if I actually thought about Him, He'd lose his awesomeness." (Yes I've heard this)

What that claim boils down to is a love for the idea that there is something that is so far above you that belief in it absolves you from responsibility. If you took responsibility for your actions, you'd lose that blanket of protection - no more asking god for forgiveness and forgetting about it. You would also show yourself to be more moral than your God. For some reason, both thoughts frighten you.

I can see where not being responsible for one's actions would be enjoyable - there's no need to be kind to anyone or help those in need. If you do feel a pang of conscience, all you need to do is pray to God for forgiveness and it's like it never happened.

I don't know who said this but I know I can claim it as original. It seems to be true in your case nonetheless. Religon is an anaesthetic for the conscience. Christ isn't your example - he's your chloroform.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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QUESTION

 

I have a question for you and Anonymouse:  What do you think of the flattery in the K - 12 education system that is supposed to build self esteem? 


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Fonzie wrote: I have a

Fonzie wrote:

 

I have a question for you and Anonymouse:  What do you think of the flattery in the K - 12 education system that is supposed to build self esteem? 

What about it? Is it commendation for things they've done?

Or are they being praised for things others have done - like when you go to the hospital for meds or surgery and give God the credit for the work of the surgeons?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote: I have a

Fonzie wrote:

 

I have a question for you and Anonymouse:  What do you think of the flattery in the K - 12 education system that is supposed to build self esteem? 

 

Flattery ? Can't remember ever being "flattered" by a teacher, and I don't see it happening in the near future.

I'm assuming you're talking about kids being praised for their accomplishments. Well, kids with normal self esteem don't really need it, but it's nice, I suppose. Other kids, who aren't very confident in themselves, could benefit from that.

But that's just my opinion. I'm no expert in child development.

 

Btw, that's a bit of a weird switch, going from religious killing to education, just like that. An unpleasant thought occurs : You're not a teacher, are you, Fonzie ? You only just admitted you'd enjoy murdering children when god tells you to, so please tell me you're not a teacher.


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  Anonymouse &

 

 

Anonymouse & JCGadfly

 

Yeah I like variety in my day.  No, not a school teacher.  I'm surprised you're not aware of what I'm bringing up here.  Just wondered how you felt about fake praise to build up "self esteem".  Actually I thought you'd have more of an opinion about it - but you probably thought it was a trap.  I can understand that.  You probably thought I was going to blind side you.

 

Fonzie


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Fonzie wrote:Anonymouse &

Fonzie wrote:
Anonymouse & JCGadfly

Awesome, we're a duo now.

Fonzie wrote:
Yeah I like variety in my day.

Oooookay.............

Fonzie wrote:
No, not a school teacher.

Phew !

Fonzie wrote:
I'm surprised you're not aware of what I'm bringing up here.

Something completely unrelated to what we were talking about, but that's okay. If I'd just admitted to enjoying the prospect of murder, like you did, I'd want to change the subject too.

Fonzie wrote:
Just wondered how you felt about fake praise to build up "self esteem".  Actually I thought you'd have more of an opinion about it

Sure, okay.

Fonzie wrote:
- but you probably thought it was a trap.  I can understand that.  You probably thought I was going to blind side you.

A "trap" ? "Blindside" ? Fonzie, like I keep repeating, only a few posts ago you admitted you would gladly murder innocent kids if god asked you to. On top of that, you added you would enjoy it as well. Just how exactly would you "trap" or "blindside" someone after an admission like that ?

Fonzie wrote:
Fonzie

I guess all that's left to do, is ask if you'd like to change your mind about being willing to murder innocent kids (or innocent anybody, for that matter) if god asked you to.

If not, then I guess we're done.


zekethegeek
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Wow, what a weak argument

Fonzie wrote:

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

 

I must admit that as a Christian thoughts like these disturb me.  It's a utilitarian argument tinged with emotionalism.  If it didn't work for him/her or make them feel good then it's not true? True Christianity is faith in evidence and stands up to any scrutiny.  Yes it is rooted in the life of an actual person...Christ.  But it also has nothing to fear in any sphere of thought.  People like this, well meaning and all that, are what make "Christianity" such an easy target.

To an unknown God...not far from from each one of us.


jcgadfly
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The fake praise you speak of

The fake praise you speak of never happened in my elementary and high school (1969-1982) so I really have no idea what you mean.

I've never heard it or knew anybody in education who did it. Do you have any articles discussing this? This would go far in making me believe you didn't pull this from you nether region.

To answer your question, people should be praised for their accomplishments. This does bring up a question, though.

Why do you lavish praise on your God for things you or others did? Wouldn't that qualify as fake praise to stroke God's ego?

 

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin