It works for me!

Fonzie
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It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


zarathustra
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The infidel king of Persia, out of pure spite for Elvis, was now blocking all lithium exports.  Although the reduced supply produced some errata, the trollgarithm still managed to duplicate the Old Troll fairly accurately:

The bible is the werd of Gawd, the Criator of the ntyre yoonyverse. The werd of an infynit Gawd can never be applyde 2 broadly.

You as a meer mortle can tell truth and lies. But Gawd never lyze. Everything He sez is troo, and verryfied by jeezus.

Izlomm is a false reelidjinn, and Olla is a false gawd. But I follow the one Troo Religion and the wun True Gawd: Jeezus. If everyone followed Jeezus, it wood prevent ALL bad thingz.

Gawd haz no limits, and nythr does His word, the byble. I kant say “I don’t know”, becuz I have the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Atheists beeleave the snarwidgit of Science and reject the gospel of trooth. I aksept the gospil becawse it’s true and it eggzists.

Maybe atheists bileev in aliens and the moarallitee of Eesoup. With Jeezus protecting me like a tertill shell, I will Cross the finish line slow and steddy, while the atheists are still asleap, dreeming of snarfwidgits.

Maybe u think yore life is abundint from your ickspearyints, but untle you ekspirrience Jeezus, you whoan’t knowe how little you hav without Jeezus.

If you rijekt Jeezus, yew’ll never understand.

 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Fonzie
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THE SPIRIT OF MAN IS THE LAMP OF THE LORD - SEARCHING...

luca wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

 

I was sorry I didn't have time to do what I wanted - which was answer your post without a rush.  

As far as wasting time - why should we waste time.  Just because I am straight with you doesn't mean an ill wind blows.  I believe the Bible - I apply it to myself the same as you.

As far as my describing what you did with your pursuit of faith in God in a way that you like -  there is necessarily conflict and dissension because I am promoting faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ which you reject.  There is no way I can put it that would please you and fit your own justification of what you're doing.  As far as my assumptions - I admittedly don't know what you're doing or what God's doing for that matter.  It's a disadvantage I have being a man.  

When I said you didn't get faith "off the ground" and "gave up" it was not an all knowing description of what you are about.  It was just a way of describing it from my point of view, as I would describe myself if I did that.   

Depravity to me is a man living without his God.  It has that magnitude for me - and I remember when I was without God and depraved.  I can understand you having a different view.  

As far as "choosing which Bible verse to quote" - let me know if I have something out of context from the Scriptures.  I don't aim to do that.  It gets long to try to give the context but I don't aim to put any twist on anything.  

There are non-believers that think they don't need God to live - however they are "settling" for an existence that isn't the abundant life nor the eternal life that is in Christ.  

There are ordinances God has set up that are to be respected - baptism, the LORD'S SUPPER, worship, prayer - but the substance of the form is God.  You could rehearse forms but not commune with God and know God and draw near to God.  You could thus mistake the forms for God.  Indeed if you don't commune with God, know God, etc you will probably hold fanatically to the forms fooling yourself and satisfying your fleshly side with ritual.  The fleshly side of man is threatened however by faith - it opposes the pride of the fleshly side.

You may be right about the name change - but since you reject Jesus anyway why would it matter to you.

 

You may believe the bible, but understanding from your words you seem to apply it too broadly. Even if "confidence like in a person" is true, then it still doesn't explain why you trust your faith so much. Example: I tell you one thing, and it verifies to be true. At this point then you say you trust me, and if I say another thing it will be true. Am I the only one that sees that as a non sequitur? What justifies me, that I say that I have created the universe?
And try to see where believing leads to: an example is islam. It is said to be the same god (in all 3 monoteisms), not that I care much about that. But do you realize what are they doing? Some of them go around exploding themselves and killing people, some of them do activities like that. Why? "Because God (Allah) said that". Which, in other words, means "dogma". So in opposite (not because of them, it wasn't the cause) I try to live my life understanding things, and searching the origins of the things -- in one word, explanations. I don't see what there could be better than that: if applied could have prevented a lot of bad things.
The fact is that "explanations" includes also bad behavior and love, but you seem to be limiting yourself to the bible. This is another thing I don't understand much. If you tell me "I don't wish to deepen those thematics", maybe because you don't have time, or because it's hard, ok, but then say "I don't know" instead of "the bible says it's like that". I don't "reject the gospel of Jesus Christ". It's like saying "this gospel is an authority which you refute to follow", which is not, so I'm not rejecting nothing. It has no importance, the decision doesn't even comes. It's like if I told you "you reject the gospel of the snarfwidgets". Do you know what is a snarfwidget? Probably not, because probably the concept doesn't even exists. That's Jesus and his gospel. No "choosing", no "rejection". Wrong words. Or also "you reject the morality of Aesop"... Do you even ask youself the question? No, it's a completely alien argument. For me it's the same. It is not the point of you telling me the things in a way I like. Things are what they are. So that's another problem I was describing: you said "gave up" because you're analysing the matter from your point of view, judging from what you could or could not do, something you should not do. I didn't live your life, nor I had your experiences, so I don't act (and think) like you (so, if I'm not already being obvious, you can't judge me basing only on yourself -- because that's what I saw you doing). "Depravity to me is" still a strong word. It's together corrupted and evil, without morality. I think you're using the wrong word. It's not that you quoted verses out of context, it's that being that a verse can have multiple meanings you are the one who decides what extrapolate every time you want to quote the bible. Until you're saying that you consider every verse to be univocal, but from what I understand from the metaphors' little debate I'd say this is not the case. Now, I have no problems with the finiteness of my life, so I'm not going there, but that the non-believers don't live "an abundant life" is something that is different from my experiences. In fact I think it's the opposite way. Pride seems a great concern to you. And maybe evey other faithful person I've talked with, even the one practising oriental religions. Okay, there are the three ordinances. But so how do you commune/know/draw near to God? Is the bible part of religion? "You may be right about the name change - but since you reject Jesus anyway why would it matter to you." Maybe one day you'll understand.

 

 

Hi Luca,

 

I enjoy discussing these things with you.  I have no doubt you are a decent guy and would enjoy making your acquaintance.  Understand that this very thing, this self confidence you have can be the greatest barrier to finding real Life - Eternal Life in Christ.  Your own character and perceived morality can be your idol which you worship and trust in.  The realization that any great work (like ocean tide, like salvation) is of God and not of ourselves knocks over the idol of pride in the heart.

I believe you to be true as in honest to me with what you believe.  I believe in One much greater than you yourself in yourself Who was not only 100% man but 100% God as well, the Living Word of God - still Living BTW with Indestructible Life, dwelling in His people.  You can see that believing you yet deferring to Jesus is not saying you are dishonest, just that you are not God.  Faith as you describe doesn't follow with a man that does follow with God in the flesh - Jesus, the Lamb of God, through Whom all things were created and in Whom all things hold together. 

As far as interpretation of the Word of God.  At one time God was revealing His Word through the prophets and men moved by His Spirit - today He lights His Word with His Spirit.  Many things are mysterious as to meaning in Scripture.  Many things are very plain.  It is very plain that there is Salvation in no other Name but Jesus for instance, that no one comes to God except through Jesus Christ.  

As for science coming along and telling me something that happened a million years ago - I think it takes a faith in science I don't have to swallow it.  A little story concerning this:  I went to a fossil show with my grandsons that had mosquitoes entombed in amber.  The guy said they had been in there for several thousand years.  If so, they haven't evolved much - but I don't say that except in jest.  I don't believe creation came about through evolution.  I don't have that kind of faith in science.  I do have confidence that a transistor can work, an led, a capacitor.  But when science starts telling me about things that are covered in Scripture I don't accept it.  

I think it was Blacklight that remarked that faith in the Bible seems to feed on itself in a circular way.  That may be true, but that in itself doesn't threaten whether it is right or not.  I think Blacklight was encouraged that Atheistextremest was complimenting him.  That's kind of circular too - so is a "push poll".  Some people are encouraged by herd mentality.  I will admit that I am encouraged when I discuss Bible truths with a brother or sister, but it is not producing something true that's not already true.  There is a point of "lift off" with faith where you really "taste and see that God is good".  There is a point at which the toddler can walk pretty steadily - and later even skate.  

Islam comes under the warning at the end of the Bible - Revelation 22.18-21.  I will just say what the archangel Michael said to Satan disputing about the body of Moses - "the LORD rebuke you".  You can't convict faith by evidence of faith in the wrong thing.  The sheep gather with the goats.  Matthew 7.22 "On that day many will say to me, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in Your Name, and cast our demons in Your Name and do many mighty works in Your Name?'  And then will I declare to them, ' I never knew you; depart from Me you evildoers.'"  You see you could even try to use them as evidence against His Name - but it's false evidence.  Their own behavior disqualifies them.  We not only have the Word of God that tells us what God is like but also how those are to live who believe in Him.  And it's not hard to understand.  It'a a lot easier than some of your questions.

There are a lot of things I don't know about Bible meanings.  Understand that completely believing in God makes that a non-factor.  I am not complaining about adding context to Bible verses BTW, or hesitant to say that "I don't know".  And in practice, if it appears to me God is not "doing anything" - I can accept God not doing anything and still know God is here and God is God.

You try to live your life understanding things, searching origins of the things, explanations - don't see what could be better than that - more people like that would make a better world.  Ok, I view what you are doing is building your own spiritual house, designing it yourself, getting your own materials, doing the work yourself.  I see what I'm doing as better than that.  I am letting the LORD supply the Plan - I am just submitting to it and working to understand it.  He is building the house and providing the credit card and I am working with Him on it.  You are building your own foundation for your house.  God has supplied the Foundation for my spiritual house - "Other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."  If I do what Jesus says (unlike blowing people up) I am building on The Rock - God's Foundation.  I see my construction site as a lot more efficient and productive than yours.  Actually sharing the truth with you I see yours as a booth in a cucumber field.  Not much of a spiritual house going there with you - because you won't give up your own ideas and plan and your own righteousness and get out of the way and let the LORD build for you.  

By "limiting myself to the Bible" I am not limited at all.  As far as you rejecting or not rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ - Jesus said "whoever is not for Me is against Me."  You are against Jesus don't lie to yourself.  Then you go on to say you aren't against the gospel because you can't be against something that doesn't exist - like "snargwidgets".  I understand that you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God or the Bible is the Word of God and don't believe what Jesus said, that "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings has a judge; the Word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day."  You don't believe that so it doesn't exist for you - but that doesn't affect the fact that it's true.  

I don't know the "morality of Aesop", but I guess we all know certain things at the cost of being ignorant about other things. That's just another point about having the right focus.  I could go find out something about the morality of Aesop then reject it, but I have rejected it already before finding it out because I am totally sure - in fact married to Jesus Christ.  It's similar to my lovely wife of 44 years - I summarily reject all others even unknown.

I'm not judging you.  I'm on the same level as you.  We are talking about something that is above both of us - the Word of God.  The only way for us to discuss is to realize we are speaking each from our own point of view.  The only thing that is required is honesty concerning it - but why should you be offended that I'm discussing the way I see things from my point of view?  I'm not the judge - but from my viewpoint I'm pointing to The Judge of all things.  You can think that the Judge I'm pointing to doesn't exist but He certainly does to me, so from my point of view I'm not judging you - His Word is however.  And I'm not talking about obscure things from His Word - I'm talking about plain things:  Jesus is LORD, etc.

Depravity is a strong word and also a helpless state.  Anyone who has come to God and experienced God's deliverance from depravity in Christ has seen a miracle - exactly The Miracle he needs to see BTW.  It's the right word for me.  This is the sick state every Christian has been in when he/she came to the LORD for deliverance, realizing total helplessness, nothing to offer.

I do try to apply the Word of God in every aspect of my life (not near perfectly of course).  There is a lot of meaning in the digested Word of God and it would be possible to go into the Word of God to find what you want - so again it is a heart issue, an honesty issue.  I think my honest total confidence in the Word of God causes you question.  I don't think you realize how the principle of faith can deliver you from the state of constant doubts and paralyzing questionings about where we are and where we came from and where we're going.  I have no doubts about these things because I have total confidence in God and Jesus and the Word of God.  And I'm not fooling myself in order to accomplish it.  And I'm not parading it as if it's something I have accomplished on my own - I have invested faith in God with His help and He has given me more.  I have exercised my grip on God and He has strengthened it.

How to "draw near to God"?  First, believe in Jesus and be baptized into Him (really, not fake).  This washes our sins away which stand between us and God.  We are given (it's a promise) the "gift of the Holy Spirit",   We have all the tools then to "know God", "know our Master's Voice, feed on His Word, have fellowship with the body of believers (each different parts of the body, Jesus the Head) and draw near to God.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


blacklight915
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Fonzie wrote:I do have

Fonzie wrote:

I do have confidence that a transistor can work, an led, a capacitor.  But when science starts telling me about things that are covered in Scripture I don't accept it.

So, you don't reject evolution because of "a lack of faith in science" but because it conflicts with the Bible. Furthermore, science doesn't require faith: you can properly investigate any scientific finding even while thinking it's complete crap. There are tons of books about evolution that were written by biologists with the intent of educating the general public--all you need to do is read one.

The Bible, on the other hand, does seem to require faith to properly understand. Every time I point out contradictions and errors that are obvious to me I am scolded for "taking things out of context", "being unfairly biased", or "not reading things correctly". In addition, a number of theists on this website have stated that an atheist is incapable of properly reading the Bible. This is akin to saying "you won't understand that the Bible is the word of God unless you already think that the Bible is the word of God".

 

Fonzie wrote:

I think it was Blacklight that remarked that faith in the Bible seems to feed on itself in a circular way.  That may be true, but that in itself doesn't threaten whether it is right or not.

Both myself and Atheistextremist remarked that using the Bible to prove the Bible is a textbook example of circular reasoning. I would like some outside evidence of the Bible's accuracy and validity.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Ok, I view what you are doing is building your own spiritual house, designing it yourself, getting your own materials, doing the work yourself.  I see what I'm doing as better than that.  I am letting the LORD supply the Plan - I am just submitting to it and working to understand it.  He is building the house and providing the credit card and I am working with Him on it.  You are building your own foundation for your house.  God has supplied the Foundation for my spiritual house - "Other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."  If I do what Jesus says (unlike blowing people up) I am building on The Rock - God's Foundation.  I see my construction site as a lot more efficient and productive than yours.  Actually sharing the truth with you I see yours as a booth in a cucumber field.  Not much of a spiritual house going there with you - because you won't give up your own ideas and plan and your own righteousness and get out of the way and let the LORD build for you.

Your "spiritual house" analogy is slightly off. Luca isn't building it completely alone: whenever people search for answers and explanations, they almost always start with the work of other people--almost every piece of information you will ever come across will have been made by another person. Even the Bible, your source of information, was written and compiled by other people.

 

Fonzie wrote:

You don't believe that so it doesn't exist for you - but that doesn't affect the fact that it's true.

The truth of what you've stated is not a fact: as you've indicated above, one's belief in something does not affect it's truth or falsehood.

 

Fonzie wrote:

I guess we all know certain things at the cost of being ignorant about other things. It's similar to my lovely wife of 44 years - I summarily reject all others even unknown.

That's an issue of time: because we don't have enough time to investigate everything, we can only investigate some things. However, knowing one fact does not make another fact untrue--unless one of them is not a fact.

 


Fonzie
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BUT WHERE SHALL WISDOM BE FOUND?

blacklight915 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

I do have confidence that a transistor can work, an led, a capacitor.  But when science starts telling me about things that are covered in Scripture I don't accept it.

So, you don't reject evolution because of "a lack of faith in science" but because it conflicts with the Bible. Furthermore, science doesn't require faith: you can properly investigate any scientific finding even while thinking it's complete crap. There are tons of books about evolution that were written by biologists with the intent of educating the general public--all you need to do is read one.

The Bible, on the other hand, does seem to require faith to properly understand. Every time I point out contradictions and errors that are obvious to me I am scolded for "taking things out of context", "being unfairly biased", or "not reading things correctly". In addition, a number of theists on this website have stated that an atheist is incapable of properly reading the Bible. This is akin to saying "you won't understand that the Bible is the word of God unless you already think that the Bible is the word of God".

 

Fonzie wrote:

I think it was Blacklight that remarked that faith in the Bible seems to feed on itself in a circular way.  That may be true, but that in itself doesn't threaten whether it is right or not.

Both myself and Atheistextremist remarked that using the Bible to prove the Bible is a textbook example of circular reasoning. I would like some outside evidence of the Bible's accuracy and validity.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Ok, I view what you are doing is building your own spiritual house, designing it yourself, getting your own materials, doing the work yourself.  I see what I'm doing as better than that.  I am letting the LORD supply the Plan - I am just submitting to it and working to understand it.  He is building the house and providing the credit card and I am working with Him on it.  You are building your own foundation for your house.  God has supplied the Foundation for my spiritual house - "Other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."  If I do what Jesus says (unlike blowing people up) I am building on The Rock - God's Foundation.  I see my construction site as a lot more efficient and productive than yours.  Actually sharing the truth with you I see yours as a booth in a cucumber field.  Not much of a spiritual house going there with you - because you won't give up your own ideas and plan and your own righteousness and get out of the way and let the LORD build for you.

Your "spiritual house" analogy is slightly off. Luca isn't building it completely alone: whenever people search for answers and explanations, they almost always start with the work of other people--almost every piece of information you will ever come across will have been made by another person. Even the Bible, your source of information, was written and compiled by other people.

 

Fonzie wrote:

You don't believe that so it doesn't exist for you - but that doesn't affect the fact that it's true.

The truth of what you've stated is not a fact: as you've indicated above, one's belief in something does not affect it's truth or falsehood.

 

Fonzie wrote:

I guess we all know certain things at the cost of being ignorant about other things. It's similar to my lovely wife of 44 years - I summarily reject all others even unknown.

That's an issue of time: because we don't have enough time to investigate everything, we can only investigate some things. However, knowing one fact does not make another fact untrue--unless one of them is not a fact.

 

 

 

BL,

 

Anything that's said can be repackaged as you demonstrate.  By that I mean you have a different perspective than I do and I understand they are different.  I have faith in science telling me how to figure work in ft pounds.   I am ok with science telling me how to figure the acceleration of gravity, but not things that I consider off-subject for science.  How the world was created is one example.    

If you believe a scientist telling you something he thinks happened a billion years ago (give or take some change) I think you are displaying great faith in the scientist or ton of scientists.  I don't have that kind of faith.  "God said, 'let there be light, and there was light'" which works perfectly for me.  I believe that totally.  You can call it blind faith (to me it isn't) and you can call your confidence in what happened a billion years ago (as per your favorite scientist or body of scientists) something other than faith if you want, but I say it is quite a leap of faith on your part to do that, package it how you will.  That's how I package it.      

The Bible is perfectly harmonious and reasonable to me, actually a "living" "active" book.  It claims not to have been written by men's own ideas but men spoke as moved by the Spirit of God.  You don't believe that I assume, but the Bible says it and I believe it.  To me it demonstrates that in a living way.  It all rings true.  It works in application.  In it I hear my Master's voice.l There is a lifetime of food to be digested with plenty to spare.  The blessing of the LORD makes rich and He adds no sorrow with it. 

As far as the Bible "requiring faith to properly understand" I understand your irritation I think about being challenged with that as if you are not smart enough or don't have the secret password or something.  There is a passage in Job that might help you understand my perspective on this from my study of the Bible.  There are physical things discussed (Job 28) then it switches to spiritual things (28.12).  By the time you get to (28.23-28) you will understand the handicap I'm referring to without faith.

Maybe you could write a paragraph for me from evolution that demonstrates a scientific finding I could investigate that you believe.  Write a paragraph that inspires you and you can apply in your life.   

You view using the Bible to prove the Bible as textbook circular reasoning.  I understand what you're saying and it's true you could view it that way and maybe it is because I totally believe the Bible, all of it.  You do have to rightly divide it you understand.  For instance there are lies of Satan recorded that aren't intended to be believed as truth.  There are the wrong perspectives of Job's friends.  There is the Old Law then the grace of God through Jesus.  

As far as Luca and his spiritual house, sure I know he is gathering counsel from others.  I didn't mean to imply that he is only using his own ideas, but he is deciding on which ideas to use and drafting the design himself.  The Bible says, "I know O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps".  That means the gathering of the plan from a group of men still won't be the way to go.  So I am confident the plan needs to come from the LORD and the building of my spiritual house needs to be the work of the LORD.  For me my analogy is right on.

It's true that one's faith in something doesn't prove it's true - for somebody else.  My faith in the Bible being true proves it's true for me however.  You can decide what you think is true - I have decided as well.  

We have a limited amount of time.  Paul told Timothy, "guard what has been entrusted to you.  Avoid the godless chatter and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge for by professing it some have missed the mark as regards the faith."  I am focused on the treasure I have found - Jesus.  There are things I avoid.  

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:but not things

Fonzie wrote:

but not things that I consider off-subject for science.  How the world was created is one example.    

If you believe a scientist telling you something he thinks happened a billion years ago (give or take some change) I think you are displaying great faith in the scientist or ton of scientists.  I don't have that kind of faith.  "God said, 'let there be light, and there was light'" which works perfectly for me.  I believe that totally.

How is the creation of the world off-limits for science?

Also, the scientists making those statements have reasoning and evidence to back them up. For example, if you were to ask how they know these statements to be true, they would likely try to explain the methods and processes they used.

So, the reason you believe totally that "God said, 'let there be light, and there was light'," is because it's written in a book whose authors were supposedly inspired by the Holy Spirit? And, the reason you believe the writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit is "the book (which they wrote) says so"? And, the reason you believe all this is because, after already believing it, you see how the experiences in your life verify it? I have a question, have you ever heard of something called confirmation bias?

 

The following information is copied verbatim from the ninth edition of Psychology, by David G. Myers:

 

confirmation bias: a tendency to search for information that supports our preconceptions and to ignore or distort contradictory evidence (sidebar on page 372)

We seek evidence verifying our ideas more eagerly than we seek evidence that might refute them (Klayman & Ha, 1987; Skov & Sherman, 1986). This tendency, known as confirmation bias, is a major obstacle to problem solving. Peter Watson (1960) demonstrated the confirmation bias by giving British university students the three-number sequence 2-4-6 and asking them to guess the rule he had used to devise the series. (The rule was simple: any three ascending numbers.) Before submitting answers, students generated their own sets of three numbers, and Watson told them whether their sets conformed to his rule. Once they felt certain they had the rule, they were to announce it. The result? Seldom right but never in doubt. Most of Watson's students formed a wrong idea ("Maybe it's counting by twos" ) and searched only for for evidence confirming the wrong rule (by testing 6-8-10, 100-102-104, and so forth).

"Ordinary people," said Watson (1981), "evade facts, become inconsistent, or systematically defend themselves against the threat of new information relevant to the issue." The results are sometimes momentous. The United States launched its war against Iraq on the assumption that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction (WMD) that posed an immediate threat. When that assumption turned out to be false, confirmation bias was one of the flaws in the judgment process identified by the bipartisan U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (2004). Administration analysts "had a tendency to accept information which supported [their preconceptions]...more readily than information which contradicted" them. Sources denying such weapons were deemed "either lying or not knowledgeable about Iraq's problems, while those sources who reported ongoing WMD activities were seen as having provided valuable information." (page 372-373 for both paragraphs)

Obstacles to successful problem solving are the confirmation bias, which predisposes us to verify rather than challenge our hypothesis (page 402)

 

Fonzie wrote:

It's true that one's faith in something doesn't prove it's true - for somebody else.  My faith in the Bible being true proves it's true for me however.  You can decide what you think is true - I have decided as well.

What someone thinks is true has no bearing on what is true. That said, there are plenty of cases where your statement is correct. However, almost all these cases deal with peoples' differing perceptions of things. The fact that God is real to you doesn't make God actually real: the God you speak of might only exist in your mind--He could be a mental construct you created. This would certainly explain why the God you speak of is so readily apparent to you, but not really anyone else.

 

Fonzie wrote:

As far as the Bible "requiring faith to properly understand" I understand your irritation I think about being challenged with that as if you are not smart enough or don't have the secret password or something.  There is a passage in Job that might help you understand my perspective on this from my study of the Bible.  There are physical things discussed (Job 28) then it switches to spiritual things (28.12).  By the time you get to (28.23-28) you will understand the handicap I'm referring to without faith.

Thank you for trying to understand my perspective; I shall try to return the favor. So, do you think of wisdom as a "spiritual thing"? Do you think of it as something that, while not located in the physical universe, can be found "in God" because He is spiritual?

 

Fonzie wrote:

Maybe you could write a paragraph for me from evolution that demonstrates a scientific finding I could investigate that you believe.  Write a paragraph that inspires you and you can apply in your life.

 

The following information is copied verbatim from the eighth edition of Biology, by Campbell and Reece:

 

Such adaptations are the result of evolution, the process of change that has transformed life on Earth from its earliest beginnings to the diversity of organisms living today. As discussed later in this chapter, evolution is the fundamental organizing principle of biology and the main theme of this book.

Although biologists know a great deal about magnolias and other plants, many mysteries remain. For instance, what exactly led to the origin of flowering plants? Posing questions about the living world and seeking science-based answers--scientific inquiry--are the central doctrines of biology, the scientific study of life. Biologists' questions can be ambitious. They may ask how a single tiny cell becomes a tree or a dog, how the human mind works, or how different forms of life in a forest interact. Can you think of some questions about living organisms that interest you? When you do, you are already starting to think like a biologist. More than anything else, biology is a quest, an ongoing inquiry about the nature of life.

Perhaps some of your questions relate to health or to societal or environmental issues. Biology is woven into the fabric of our culture more than ever before and can help answer many questions that affect our lives. Research breakthroughs in genetics and cell biology are transforming medicine and agriculture. Neuroscience and evolutionary biology are reshaping psychology and sociology. New models in ecology are helping societies evaluate environmental issues, such as global warming. There has never been a more important time to embark on a study of life. (page 1 for all three paragraphs)

 


zarathustra
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After several years of dedicated work, researchers managed to produce an elegant rendering of the trollgarithm:

For:  input x, conclusion C

1. b = RandomBlather()

2. IF b confirms C THEN return b

    ELSE goto 1

 

After this discovery, it was quit simple to duplicate the Troll's output:


Quote:
How is the creation of the world off-limits for science?

Also, the scientists making those statements have reasoning and evidence to back them up. For example, if you were to ask how they know these statements to be true, they would likely try to explain the methods and processes they used.

I have the evidence of god Himself to back me up.  The process he used is explained in genesis.

Quote:
So, the reason you believe totally that "God said, 'let there be light, and there was light'," is because it's written in a book whose authors were supposedly inspired by the Holy Spirit? And, the reason you believe the writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit is "the book (which they wrote) says so"? And, the reason you believe all this is because, after already believing it, you see how the experiences in your life verify it? I have a question, have you ever heard of something called confirmation bias?

Correct.  I am biased towards the truth.  If you accepted jesus, you too would be biased towards the Truth.

The following information is copied verbatim from Jesus:  "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".  (John 14:6)

Quote:
The fact that God is real to you doesn't make God actually real: the God you speak of might only exist in your mind--He could be a mental construct you created. This would certainly explain why the God you speak of is so readily apparent to you, but not really anyone else.

God is real to me because God is actually real.  God will exist in your mind once you accept jesus into your heart.  
 

 

There remained, however, the incessant failure of the trollgarithm for the input:  

 

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 48± µ3 time
 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Fonzie
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IS THERE A THING OF WHICH I IS SAID, "SEE, THIS IS NEW"?

blacklight915 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

but not things that I consider off-subject for science.  How the world was created is one example.    

If you believe a scientist telling you something he thinks happened a billion years ago (give or take some change) I think you are displaying great faith in the scientist or ton of scientists.  I don't have that kind of faith.  "God said, 'let there be light, and there was light'" which works perfectly for me.  I believe that totally.

How is the creation of the world off-limits for science?

Also, the scientists making those statements have reasoning and evidence to back them up. For example, if you were to ask how they know these statements to be true, they would likely try to explain the methods and processes they used.

So, the reason you believe totally that "God said, 'let there be light, and there was light'," is because it's written in a book whose authors were supposedly inspired by the Holy Spirit? And, the reason you believe the writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit is "the book (which they wrote) says so"? And, the reason you believe all this is because, after already believing it, you see how the experiences in your life verify it? I have a question, have you ever heard of something called confirmation bias?

 

The following information is copied verbatim from the ninth edition of Psychology, by David G. Myers:

 

confirmation bias: a tendency to search for information that supports our preconceptions and to ignore or distort contradictory evidence (sidebar on page 372)

We seek evidence verifying our ideas more eagerly than we seek evidence that might refute them (Klayman & Ha, 1987; Skov & Sherman, 1986). This tendency, known as confirmation bias, is a major obstacle to problem solving. Peter Watson (1960) demonstrated the confirmation bias by giving British university students the three-number sequence 2-4-6 and asking them to guess the rule he had used to devise the series. (The rule was simple: any three ascending numbers.) Before submitting answers, students generated their own sets of three numbers, and Watson told them whether their sets conformed to his rule. Once they felt certain they had the rule, they were to announce it. The result? Seldom right but never in doubt. Most of Watson's students formed a wrong idea ("Maybe it's counting by twos" ) and searched only for for evidence confirming the wrong rule (by testing 6-8-10, 100-102-104, and so forth).

"Ordinary people," said Watson (1981), "evade facts, become inconsistent, or systematically defend themselves against the threat of new information relevant to the issue." The results are sometimes momentous. The United States launched its war against Iraq on the assumption that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction (WMD) that posed an immediate threat. When that assumption turned out to be false, confirmation bias was one of the flaws in the judgment process identified by the bipartisan U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (2004). Administration analysts "had a tendency to accept information which supported [their preconceptions]...more readily than information which contradicted" them. Sources denying such weapons were deemed "either lying or not knowledgeable about Iraq's problems, while those sources who reported ongoing WMD activities were seen as having provided valuable information." (page 372-373 for both paragraphs)

Obstacles to successful problem solving are the confirmation bias, which predisposes us to verify rather than challenge our hypothesis (page 402)

 

Fonzie wrote:

It's true that one's faith in something doesn't prove it's true - for somebody else.  My faith in the Bible being true proves it's true for me however.  You can decide what you think is true - I have decided as well.

What someone thinks is true has no bearing on what is true. That said, there are plenty of cases where your statement is correct. However, almost all these cases deal with peoples' differing perceptions of things. The fact that God is real to you doesn't make God actually real: the God you speak of might only exist in your mind--He could be a mental construct you created. This would certainly explain why the God you speak of is so readily apparent to you, but not really anyone else.

 

Fonzie wrote:

As far as the Bible "requiring faith to properly understand" I understand your irritation I think about being challenged with that as if you are not smart enough or don't have the secret password or something.  There is a passage in Job that might help you understand my perspective on this from my study of the Bible.  There are physical things discussed (Job 28) then it switches to spiritual things (28.12).  By the time you get to (28.23-28) you will understand the handicap I'm referring to without faith.

Thank you for trying to understand my perspective; I shall try to return the favor. So, do you think of wisdom as a "spiritual thing"? Do you think of it as something that, while not located in the physical universe, can be found "in God" because He is spiritual?

 

Fonzie wrote:

Maybe you could write a paragraph for me from evolution that demonstrates a scientific finding I could investigate that you believe.  Write a paragraph that inspires you and you can apply in your life.

 

The following information is copied verbatim from the eighth edition of Biology, by Campbell and Reece:

 

Such adaptations are the result of evolution, the process of change that has transformed life on Earth from its earliest beginnings to the diversity of organisms living today. As discussed later in this chapter, evolution is the fundamental organizing principle of biology and the main theme of this book.

Although biologists know a great deal about magnolias and other plants, many mysteries remain. For instance, what exactly led to the origin of flowering plants? Posing questions about the living world and seeking science-based answers--scientific inquiry--are the central doctrines of biology, the scientific study of life. Biologists' questions can be ambitious. They may ask how a single tiny cell becomes a tree or a dog, how the human mind works, or how different forms of life in a forest interact. Can you think of some questions about living organisms that interest you? When you do, you are already starting to think like a biologist. More than anything else, biology is a quest, an ongoing inquiry about the nature of life.

Perhaps some of your questions relate to health or to societal or environmental issues. Biology is woven into the fabric of our culture more than ever before and can help answer many questions that affect our lives. Research breakthroughs in genetics and cell biology are transforming medicine and agriculture. Neuroscience and evolutionary biology are reshaping psychology and sociology. New models in ecology are helping societies evaluate environmental issues, such as global warming. There has never been a more important time to embark on a study of life. (page 1 for all three paragraphs)

 

 

 

BL,

 

I accept the Bible as the authority yes - if science disagrees it is off limit to me.  You have faith in the scientists' reasoning and proofs (do they disagree with other scientists BTW?) - I don't have that faith.    

Yes I have "confirmation bias" as I define it:  Proverbs 21.2 "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart."  In order to be spiritually healthy we need to justify what we think and do - which makes sin a double slippery slope.  Yes, I believe the LORD and have committed my way to the LORD.  And I am happy with that decision - it is proving right.  

 

Yes I believe wisdom is a spiritual thing not a "bag of tricks" or "methods".  Actually I believe it is the presence of God.  You can understand this perspective by reading Proverbs 1-9.  

Your Biology blurb and study didn't cut it for me.  I think these studies and applications are hilarious actually.  What is "falsely called knowledge" has produced a lot of studies and far reaching faith applications for the wowed science faithful.   Several scientists believe global warming is a hoax BTW - I just mention that as a glitch in your science footing.   

The other part of what you copied just appears to be an investigation of what God has created.  It will take a long time to do that - more time than we have....

 

 

 


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Actually, I have an

Actually, I have an important question I need you to answer:


Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here.

 


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...

Fonzie reminds me of a quote from Sam Harris: "What evidence can you give to someone who doesn't value evidence to convince them that they should value evidence?  What logical argument can you give to someone who doesn't value logic to convince them that they should value logic?" 

Fonzie is looking for one thing and one thing alone: drugs.  If the Koran changed his life and made him a better person he'd be a Muslim -- 'forget about the truth, I'm just trying to be a better person.'  Of course, he cares enough about rationality to pretend he values it more than he does.


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ATHEIST SUBSTANCE WOULD BE A START

blacklight915 wrote:

Actually, I have an important question I need you to answer:


Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here.

 

 

BL,

I also will ask you a question - what do you have of substance to answer my reasoning?  


luca
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wwwww

Fonzie wrote:
blacklight915 wrote:
Actually, I have an important question I need you to answer:


Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here.

BL,

I also will ask you a question - what do you have of substance to answer my reasoning?  

Well, you don't ask many questions...


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blacklight915 wrote:How is

blacklight915 wrote:
How is the creation of the world off-limits for science?

 

Well, taking "world" to mean something like "universe" instead of "the planet Earth", science can't actually go back that far.  It can get very, very close--up to a Planck second away, if memory serves--but before that, modern science literally cannot say anything.

"It is not against reason that I should prefer the destruction of half the world to the pricking of my little finger."


luca
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under my skin

Fonzie wrote:
Hi Luca,

 

I enjoy discussing these things with you.  I have no doubt you are a decent guy and would enjoy making your acquaintance.  Understand that this very thing, this self confidence you have can be the greatest barrier to finding real Life - Eternal Life in Christ.  Your own character and perceived morality can be your idol which you worship and trust in.  The realization that any great work (like ocean tide, like salvation) is of God and not of ourselves knocks over the idol of pride in the heart.

I believe you to be true as in honest to me with what you believe.  I believe in One much greater than you yourself in yourself Who was not only 100% man but 100% God as well, the Living Word of God - still Living BTW with Indestructible Life, dwelling in His people.  You can see that believing you yet deferring to Jesus is not saying you are dishonest, just that you are not God.  Faith as you describe doesn't follow with a man that does follow with God in the flesh - Jesus, the Lamb of God, through Whom all things were created and in Whom all things hold together. 

As far as interpretation of the Word of God.  At one time God was revealing His Word through the prophets and men moved by His Spirit - today He lights His Word with His Spirit.  Many things are mysterious as to meaning in Scripture.  Many things are very plain.  It is very plain that there is Salvation in no other Name but Jesus for instance, that no one comes to God except through Jesus Christ.  

As for science coming along and telling me something that happened a million years ago - I think it takes a faith in science I don't have to swallow it.  A little story concerning this:  I went to a fossil show with my grandsons that had mosquitoes entombed in amber.  The guy said they had been in there for several thousand years.  If so, they haven't evolved much - but I don't say that except in jest.  I don't believe creation came about through evolution.  I don't have that kind of faith in science.  I do have confidence that a transistor can work, an led, a capacitor.  But when science starts telling me about things that are covered in Scripture I don't accept it.  

I think it was Blacklight that remarked that faith in the Bible seems to feed on itself in a circular way.  That may be true, but that in itself doesn't threaten whether it is right or not.  I think Blacklight was encouraged that Atheistextremest was complimenting him.  That's kind of circular too - so is a "push poll".  Some people are encouraged by herd mentality.  I will admit that I am encouraged when I discuss Bible truths with a brother or sister, but it is not producing something true that's not already true.  There is a point of "lift off" with faith where you really "taste and see that God is good".  There is a point at which the toddler can walk pretty steadily - and later even skate.  

Islam comes under the warning at the end of the Bible - Revelation 22.18-21.  I will just say what the archangel Michael said to Satan disputing about the body of Moses - "the LORD rebuke you".  You can't convict faith by evidence of faith in the wrong thing.  The sheep gather with the goats.  Matthew 7.22 "On that day many will say to me, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in Your Name, and cast our demons in Your Name and do many mighty works in Your Name?'  And then will I declare to them, ' I never knew you; depart from Me you evildoers.'"  You see you could even try to use them as evidence against His Name - but it's false evidence.  Their own behavior disqualifies them.  We not only have the Word of God that tells us what God is like but also how those are to live who believe in Him.  And it's not hard to understand.  It'a a lot easier than some of your questions.

There are a lot of things I don't know about Bible meanings.  Understand that completely believing in God makes that a non-factor.  I am not complaining about adding context to Bible verses BTW, or hesitant to say that "I don't know".  And in practice, if it appears to me God is not "doing anything" - I can accept God not doing anything and still know God is here and God is God.

You try to live your life understanding things, searching origins of the things, explanations - don't see what could be better than that - more people like that would make a better world.  Ok, I view what you are doing is building your own spiritual house, designing it yourself, getting your own materials, doing the work yourself.  I see what I'm doing as better than that.  I am letting the LORD supply the Plan - I am just submitting to it and working to understand it.  He is building the house and providing the credit card and I am working with Him on it.  You are building your own foundation for your house.  God has supplied the Foundation for my spiritual house - "Other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."  If I do what Jesus says (unlike blowing people up) I am building on The Rock - God's Foundation.  I see my construction site as a lot more efficient and productive than yours.  Actually sharing the truth with you I see yours as a booth in a cucumber field.  Not much of a spiritual house going there with you - because you won't give up your own ideas and plan and your own righteousness and get out of the way and let the LORD build for you.  

By "limiting myself to the Bible" I am not limited at all.  As far as you rejecting or not rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ - Jesus said "whoever is not for Me is against Me."  You are against Jesus don't lie to yourself.  Then you go on to say you aren't against the gospel because you can't be against something that doesn't exist - like "snargwidgets".  I understand that you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God or the Bible is the Word of God and don't believe what Jesus said, that "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings has a judge; the Word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day."  You don't believe that so it doesn't exist for you - but that doesn't affect the fact that it's true.  

I don't know the "morality of Aesop", but I guess we all know certain things at the cost of being ignorant about other things. That's just another point about having the right focus.  I could go find out something about the morality of Aesop then reject it, but I have rejected it already before finding it out because I am totally sure - in fact married to Jesus Christ.  It's similar to my lovely wife of 44 years - I summarily reject all others even unknown.

I'm not judging you.  I'm on the same level as you.  We are talking about something that is above both of us - the Word of God.  The only way for us to discuss is to realize we are speaking each from our own point of view.  The only thing that is required is honesty concerning it - but why should you be offended that I'm discussing the way I see things from my point of view?  I'm not the judge - but from my viewpoint I'm pointing to The Judge of all things.  You can think that the Judge I'm pointing to doesn't exist but He certainly does to me, so from my point of view I'm not judging you - His Word is however.  And I'm not talking about obscure things from His Word - I'm talking about plain things:  Jesus is LORD, etc.

Depravity is a strong word and also a helpless state.  Anyone who has come to God and experienced God's deliverance from depravity in Christ has seen a miracle - exactly The Miracle he needs to see BTW.  It's the right word for me.  This is the sick state every Christian has been in when he/she came to the LORD for deliverance, realizing total helplessness, nothing to offer.

I do try to apply the Word of God in every aspect of my life (not near perfectly of course).  There is a lot of meaning in the digested Word of God and it would be possible to go into the Word of God to find what you want - so again it is a heart issue, an honesty issue.  I think my honest total confidence in the Word of God causes you question.  I don't think you realize how the principle of faith can deliver you from the state of constant doubts and paralyzing questionings about where we are and where we came from and where we're going.  I have no doubts about these things because I have total confidence in God and Jesus and the Word of God.  And I'm not fooling myself in order to accomplish it.  And I'm not parading it as if it's something I have accomplished on my own - I have invested faith in God with His help and He has given me more.  I have exercised my grip on God and He has strengthened it.

How to "draw near to God"?  First, believe in Jesus and be baptized into Him (really, not fake).  This washes our sins away which stand between us and God.  We are given (it's a promise) the "gift of the Holy Spirit",   We have all the tools then to "know God", "know our Master's Voice, feed on His Word, have fellowship with the body of believers (each different parts of the body, Jesus the Head) and draw near to God.

 

My self confidence, my pride, are not absolute. I have not made my mind on them, and they can change. My own character and perceived morality could become idols to worship, there is the possibility in everyone, but as of now it's not so; I watch myself from this risk constantly.

If as I describe [faith] doesn't follow with a common man, then are we saying that there are explicitly different types of faith? Or is every "kind" of faith sharing roots, some properties?
Another thing: talking about trust, confidence, if you say you have confidence in a person, do you anyway take what this person says as having some truthness value? (I bet this question has been asked countless times)

Yes, in the bible many things are mysterious and many things are very plain. It *is* for example very plain that there will be the judgment day, but it is less clear when.

I am not sure I understand what you really mean with "science telling what happened a million years ago". We understand stars are so big they may live billions of years, we understand that because we observe the universe in expansion then probably going in the past it retracts to his "birth" (and the background radiation is evidence for that), and so on... In the end science is a weak statement, so you do need a lot of facts to back it up. That's the strength in it. So what we see is the leftover from billions of years ago, which means that that past is present in here, it's not like... vanished. It's a link to that past because they were there.
So the whole point in science is creating a system that being backed up with facts it's true, there's no need to believe in it. Obviously this means that there are limitations, but until now it served our purpose pretty well.

That you can "taste and see that God is good" is and remains subjective. The real problem has always been: can 'God' or who for 'it' produce something that is objective?
Or for example how can you tell if a proposition ("is Jesus God?", "is verse X:Y true?") is true or false in that system? Is there causality? Logic? Order? If not how can we, being that are functioning on causality/logic, rely that system?
Apart from that, the circularity of the bible is not always a problem. I mean, in the context above it could apply like this: are there words supported by facts? The bible tells about 'God', but what would change is this 'God' was named 'Gjoi943'? If you are using words to support words, then there is nothing. When words enter in contact with reality, then you can begin to understand what do they mean (and if they have an existing equivalent).

"You can't convict faith by evidence of faith in the wrong thing."
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Maybe it's like Mat. 7:5? Anyway, if you for the first 'faith' mean faith in God, what other comparable faith could you have to try to "convict faith in God" (for comparable I obviously mean "which answers to the same needs")?
"Their own behavior disqualifies them. We not only have the Word of God that tells us what God is like but also how those are to live who believe in Him."
And islam don't? Hebrews? Baha'i? Wiccans? I don't get it.

I know that believing renders the "I don't know"s a "non-factor" (and by "I know" I mean "I know", not "I imagine"). In fact it's called "believing" not for nothing. The problem however arised in the past when humans started investigating reality and saw that it's not entirely as described in the bible (obviously 'humans' includes also 'not christians').

I am not sure "spiritual house" is the correct term for me trying to understand things and obtain explanations. In a certain sense it goes obviously to touch morality, how I interact with other people, and what are my opinions about them, but it's only a part of it. And then it's not exactly that I'm doing the work myself, I rely on works of other people. Your "construction site" is efficient and productive in the beginning, but has a limited scope (go fast and has no way of developing later). I try to build something that lets me understand why I act like I do, and try to understand why others act like they do, for example. I am not satisfied from usual "judgments" like "this guy is doing bad things, so he's evil". I try to intuit or analyze why someone did (for example) a bad thing, and this could help me like it could help him. So does it require a lot of work? Absolutely yes, but the results are the best you can wish for.
Part 2: as the most pacifist religion in the world, buddhism, had its kamikaze; christians too had (and have) their serial killers, snipers that shoots in the crowd, things like that. Little note: I am not making it a religion vs religion thing, I'm not even saying the fault is religion's, although these "practices" share some properties. Back to us: it doesn't matter that probably for you those were not true believers. What matters is that they did something they thought was ordered from "above", they did not knew why they committed those crimes. So as said before my problem is with this irrationality, is with "not knowing", and religions obviously say man can't know. By doing that, you can justify very ugly actions. I don't care if a god/religion preaches only good, love, or whatever, not knowing reasons and explanation is demonstrably wrong, in good or in bad.
And often the game is just in the words, words like "life", "good", "god", which have not an objective meaning. Or in concepts. An example: Jesus was said to be 100% man and God. Can you verify that? Do you know how it could happen? Do you know what it means? Do you know what it's like to be God (doesn't mean 'what it feels like')? Obviously I'm not expecting an answer, I just want to make people think what do they know in the end.

The "judging" I was talking about before appeared again when you say Jesus said "or with me or against me". As said, I'm not against him, I simply don't care. You could have used for example "who is not against me is with me". Jesus said that too, if I don't go wrong. And if I remember well he said he is near sinners, and the one that hates him. He said he wants to be like a friend.
Then there is "but that doesn't affect the fact that it's true": well, that's the point because how can I retain it true if I don't see it being true? And also if apparently he cannot do anything for me, he has not appealing to me?

To be honest most christian people (and books) said that because of following Jesus they are superior to other religions and non-believers -- and if the god/s/des of a particular religion exist then probably it would be like that. I'm not offended if you talk about things for your point of view. But if free will exists, then you're exercising a little judging. Small how much you want, but it's there.

You may have total confidence if God and Jesus, but in the end what do you know about those questions? What is your place in this world?
It's not your confidence that causes me question, as I said it's not new, but it's how you arrived there.

Well, it's not a great thing believing in Jesus first to commune with God. I think this instead should be avoided until I don't know, something makes you believe? I mean, for a more sincere faith...
But it wasn't this the point. Instead, if traditions and rituals are just that, apart from "gifts" and "tools" I see only "His Word" as something, how do I say it... tangible.
So, are our inborn tools sufficient? Is the bible just tradition or it couldn't function without it?


zarathustra
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It was still quit simple to duplicate the Troll's output:


Quote:
My self confidence, my pride, are not absolute. I have not made my mind on them, and they can change. My own character and perceived morality could become idols to worship, there is the possibility in everyone, but as of now it's not so; I watch myself from this risk constantly.

My confidence is absolute because I have the One True god watching over me.  Once you accept jesus, your mind is made up forever.  I worship no false idols, only the one true god.

Quote:
If as I describe [faith] doesn't follow with a common man, then are we saying that there are explicitly different types of faith? Or is every "kind" of faith sharing roots, some properties?

There are many different types of faith, but only one is true:  faith in jesus.

Quote:
I am not sure I understand what you really mean with "science telling what happened a million years ago". We understand stars are so big they may live billions of years, we understand that because we observe the universe in expansion then probably going in the past it retracts to his "birth" (and the background radiation is evidence for that), and so on... In the end science is a weak statement, so you do need a lot of facts to back it up. That's the strength in it. So what we see is the leftover from billions of years ago, which means that that past is present in here, it's not like... vanished. It's a link to that past because they were there. So the whole point in science is creating a system that being backed up with facts it's true, there's no need to believe in it. Obviously this means that there are limitations, but until now it served our purpose pretty well.

Scientists look into a microscope and think they can see a million years ago.  I look into the bible and see the truth for all eternity.  Even stars a billion years old are not as big as the god who created them.  As you say, science has limitations, but god has no limitations.  No science is true that rejects the fact of god.

Quote:
The "judging" I was talking about before appeared again when you say Jesus said "or with me or against me". As said, I'm not against him, I simply don't care. You could have used for example "who is not against me is with me". Jesus said that too, if I don't go wrong. And if I remember well he said he is near sinners, and the one that hates him. He said he wants to be like a friend. Then there is "but that doesn't affect the fact that it's true": well, that's the point because how can I retain it true if I don't see it being true? And also if apparently he cannot do anything for me, he has not appealing to me?

If you don't care that jesus died for you, then you have rejected his gift, and you are against him.  He is near sinners who wish to be saved.  Those who don't wish to be saved have strayed too far from him.  

Quote:
You may have total confidence if God and Jesus, but in the end what do you know about those questions? What is your place in this world?

God is the answer to all those questions.  Our place in this world is to serve the god who died for us.

Quote:
So, are our inborn tools sufficient? Is the bible just tradition or it couldn't function without it?

Without the bible, our inborn tools lead to our own destruction.  Jesus offers us the tools for our salvation.

 

There remained, however, the incessant failure of the trollgarithm for the input:  

 

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 49± µ3 time
  

There are no theists on operating tables.

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Fonzie wrote:I also will ask

Fonzie wrote:

I also will ask you a question - what do you have of substance to answer my reasoning?

I'll answer that question if you answer my question.

 

Also, what bit of reasoning are you referring to?

 

Is it this one:

Fonzie wrote:

 

I accept the Bible as the authority yes - if science disagrees it is off limit to me.  You have faith in the scientists' reasoning and proofs (do they disagree with other scientists BTW?) - I don't have that faith.

Where you seem to fail to realize that the methods of inquiry used in biology to test the theory of evolution are the exact same as the methods of inquiry used in physics to test the theory of gravity?

 

Or, perhaps this one:

Fonzie wrote:

Yes I have "confirmation bias" as I define it:  Proverbs 21.2 "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart."  In order to be spiritually healthy we need to justify what we think and do - which makes sin a double slippery slope.  Yes, I believe the LORD and have committed my way to the LORD.  And I am happy with that decision - it is proving right.

Where you seem to realize what confirmation bias is but fail to recognize that the likely reason your decision is "proving right" is because people tend to interpret events in their in ways favorable to their preconceptions.

 

Or maybe, this one:

Fonzie wrote:

Yes I believe wisdom is a spiritual thing not a "bag of tricks" or "methods".  Actually I believe it is the presence of God.  You can understand this perspective by reading Proverbs 1-9.

Where you tell me that "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge"; not realizing that "fear is the mind-killer" (to quote Dune) and that it greatly hinders your higher cognitive processes.

 

Or, by chance, this one:

Fonzie wrote:

Your Biology blurb and study didn't cut it for me.  I think these studies and applications are hilarious actually.  What is "falsely called knowledge" has produced a lot of studies and far reaching faith applications for the wowed science faithful.   Several scientists believe global warming is a hoax BTW - I just mention that as a glitch in your science footing.   

The other part of what you copied just appears to be an investigation of what God has created.  It will take a long time to do that - more time than we have....

Where you mock a great branch of inquiry that has probably saved your life several times.

 

Or, better yet, is it the part where you criticize me for lack of substance after I quoted from two textbooks? The psychology book even gives you the references to the studies they got their information from! Scholarly articles from peer-reviewed journals are the best sources of knowledge for any given field--you can't get more substance than that.

 

 


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CliveStaples wrote:Well,

CliveStaples wrote:

Well, taking "world" to mean something like "universe" instead of "the planet Earth", science can't actually go back that far.  It can get very, very close--up to a Planck second away, if memory serves--but before that, modern science literally cannot say anything.

True, scientists cannot state anything definitive about what the universe was like at, or before, the Big Bang. However, I've heard a number of scientists talk about what the universe may have been like before the Big Bang. I believe they test these hypotheses mathematically, though I'm not sure as to precisely how.

 


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LIGHT IS SWEET AND IT IS PLEASANT FOR THE EYES TO BEHOLD THE SON

luca wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Hi Luca,

 

I enjoy discussing these things with you.  I have no doubt you are a decent guy and would enjoy making your acquaintance.  Understand that this very thing, this self confidence you have can be the greatest barrier to finding real Life - Eternal Life in Christ.  Your own character and perceived morality can be your idol which you worship and trust in.  The realization that any great work (like ocean tide, like salvation) is of God and not of ourselves knocks over the idol of pride in the heart.

I believe you to be true as in honest to me with what you believe.  I believe in One much greater than you yourself in yourself Who was not only 100% man but 100% God as well, the Living Word of God - still Living BTW with Indestructible Life, dwelling in His people.  You can see that believing you yet deferring to Jesus is not saying you are dishonest, just that you are not God.  Faith as you describe doesn't follow with a man that does follow with God in the flesh - Jesus, the Lamb of God, through Whom all things were created and in Whom all things hold together. 

As far as interpretation of the Word of God.  At one time God was revealing His Word through the prophets and men moved by His Spirit - today He lights His Word with His Spirit.  Many things are mysterious as to meaning in Scripture.  Many things are very plain.  It is very plain that there is Salvation in no other Name but Jesus for instance, that no one comes to God except through Jesus Christ.  

As for science coming along and telling me something that happened a million years ago - I think it takes a faith in science I don't have to swallow it.  A little story concerning this:  I went to a fossil show with my grandsons that had mosquitoes entombed in amber.  The guy said they had been in there for several thousand years.  If so, they haven't evolved much - but I don't say that except in jest.  I don't believe creation came about through evolution.  I don't have that kind of faith in science.  I do have confidence that a transistor can work, an led, a capacitor.  But when science starts telling me about things that are covered in Scripture I don't accept it.  

I think it was Blacklight that remarked that faith in the Bible seems to feed on itself in a circular way.  That may be true, but that in itself doesn't threaten whether it is right or not.  I think Blacklight was encouraged that Atheistextremest was complimenting him.  That's kind of circular too - so is a "push poll".  Some people are encouraged by herd mentality.  I will admit that I am encouraged when I discuss Bible truths with a brother or sister, but it is not producing something true that's not already true.  There is a point of "lift off" with faith where you really "taste and see that God is good".  There is a point at which the toddler can walk pretty steadily - and later even skate.  

Islam comes under the warning at the end of the Bible - Revelation 22.18-21.  I will just say what the archangel Michael said to Satan disputing about the body of Moses - "the LORD rebuke you".  You can't convict faith by evidence of faith in the wrong thing.  The sheep gather with the goats.  Matthew 7.22 "On that day many will say to me, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in Your Name, and cast our demons in Your Name and do many mighty works in Your Name?'  And then will I declare to them, ' I never knew you; depart from Me you evildoers.'"  You see you could even try to use them as evidence against His Name - but it's false evidence.  Their own behavior disqualifies them.  We not only have the Word of God that tells us what God is like but also how those are to live who believe in Him.  And it's not hard to understand.  It'a a lot easier than some of your questions.

There are a lot of things I don't know about Bible meanings.  Understand that completely believing in God makes that a non-factor.  I am not complaining about adding context to Bible verses BTW, or hesitant to say that "I don't know".  And in practice, if it appears to me God is not "doing anything" - I can accept God not doing anything and still know God is here and God is God.

You try to live your life understanding things, searching origins of the things, explanations - don't see what could be better than that - more people like that would make a better world.  Ok, I view what you are doing is building your own spiritual house, designing it yourself, getting your own materials, doing the work yourself.  I see what I'm doing as better than that.  I am letting the LORD supply the Plan - I am just submitting to it and working to understand it.  He is building the house and providing the credit card and I am working with Him on it.  You are building your own foundation for your house.  God has supplied the Foundation for my spiritual house - "Other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."  If I do what Jesus says (unlike blowing people up) I am building on The Rock - God's Foundation.  I see my construction site as a lot more efficient and productive than yours.  Actually sharing the truth with you I see yours as a booth in a cucumber field.  Not much of a spiritual house going there with you - because you won't give up your own ideas and plan and your own righteousness and get out of the way and let the LORD build for you.  

By "limiting myself to the Bible" I am not limited at all.  As far as you rejecting or not rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ - Jesus said "whoever is not for Me is against Me."  You are against Jesus don't lie to yourself.  Then you go on to say you aren't against the gospel because you can't be against something that doesn't exist - like "snargwidgets".  I understand that you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God or the Bible is the Word of God and don't believe what Jesus said, that "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings has a judge; the Word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day."  You don't believe that so it doesn't exist for you - but that doesn't affect the fact that it's true.  

I don't know the "morality of Aesop", but I guess we all know certain things at the cost of being ignorant about other things. That's just another point about having the right focus.  I could go find out something about the morality of Aesop then reject it, but I have rejected it already before finding it out because I am totally sure - in fact married to Jesus Christ.  It's similar to my lovely wife of 44 years - I summarily reject all others even unknown.

I'm not judging you.  I'm on the same level as you.  We are talking about something that is above both of us - the Word of God.  The only way for us to discuss is to realize we are speaking each from our own point of view.  The only thing that is required is honesty concerning it - but why should you be offended that I'm discussing the way I see things from my point of view?  I'm not the judge - but from my viewpoint I'm pointing to The Judge of all things.  You can think that the Judge I'm pointing to doesn't exist but He certainly does to me, so from my point of view I'm not judging you - His Word is however.  And I'm not talking about obscure things from His Word - I'm talking about plain things:  Jesus is LORD, etc.

Depravity is a strong word and also a helpless state.  Anyone who has come to God and experienced God's deliverance from depravity in Christ has seen a miracle - exactly The Miracle he needs to see BTW.  It's the right word for me.  This is the sick state every Christian has been in when he/she came to the LORD for deliverance, realizing total helplessness, nothing to offer.

I do try to apply the Word of God in every aspect of my life (not near perfectly of course).  There is a lot of meaning in the digested Word of God and it would be possible to go into the Word of God to find what you want - so again it is a heart issue, an honesty issue.  I think my honest total confidence in the Word of God causes you question.  I don't think you realize how the principle of faith can deliver you from the state of constant doubts and paralyzing questionings about where we are and where we came from and where we're going.  I have no doubts about these things because I have total confidence in God and Jesus and the Word of God.  And I'm not fooling myself in order to accomplish it.  And I'm not parading it as if it's something I have accomplished on my own - I have invested faith in God with His help and He has given me more.  I have exercised my grip on God and He has strengthened it.

How to "draw near to God"?  First, believe in Jesus and be baptized into Him (really, not fake).  This washes our sins away which stand between us and God.  We are given (it's a promise) the "gift of the Holy Spirit",   We have all the tools then to "know God", "know our Master's Voice, feed on His Word, have fellowship with the body of believers (each different parts of the body, Jesus the Head) and draw near to God.

 

My self confidence, my pride, are not absolute. I have not made my mind on them, and they can change. My own character and perceived morality could become idols to worship, there is the possibility in everyone, but as of now it's not so; I watch myself from this risk constantly. If as I describe [faith] doesn't follow with a common man, then are we saying that there are explicitly different types of faith? Or is every "kind" of faith sharing roots, some properties? Another thing: talking about trust, confidence, if you say you have confidence in a person, do you anyway take what this person says as having some truthness value? (I bet this question has been asked countless times) Yes, in the bible many things are mysterious and many things are very plain. It *is* for example very plain that there will be the judgment day, but it is less clear when. I am not sure I understand what you really mean with "science telling what happened a million years ago". We understand stars are so big they may live billions of years, we understand that because we observe the universe in expansion then probably going in the past it retracts to his "birth" (and the background radiation is evidence for that), and so on... In the end science is a weak statement, so you do need a lot of facts to back it up. That's the strength in it. So what we see is the leftover from billions of years ago, which means that that past is present in here, it's not like... vanished. It's a link to that past because they were there. So the whole point in science is creating a system that being backed up with facts it's true, there's no need to believe in it. Obviously this means that there are limitations, but until now it served our purpose pretty well. That you can "taste and see that God is good" is and remains subjective. The real problem has always been: can 'God' or who for 'it' produce something that is objective? Or for example how can you tell if a proposition ("is Jesus God?", "is verse X:Y true?&quotEye-wink is true or false in that system? Is there causality? Logic? Order? If not how can we, being that are functioning on causality/logic, rely that system? Apart from that, the circularity of the bible is not always a problem. I mean, in the context above it could apply like this: are there words supported by facts? The bible tells about 'God', but what would change is this 'God' was named 'Gjoi943'? If you are using words to support words, then there is nothing. When words enter in contact with reality, then you can begin to understand what do they mean (and if they have an existing equivalent). "You can't convict faith by evidence of faith in the wrong thing." I'm not sure what you mean by that. Maybe it's like Mat. 7:5? Anyway, if you for the first 'faith' mean faith in God, what other comparable faith could you have to try to "convict faith in God" (for comparable I obviously mean "which answers to the same needs&quotEye-wink? "Their own behavior disqualifies them. We not only have the Word of God that tells us what God is like but also how those are to live who believe in Him." And islam don't? Hebrews? Baha'i? Wiccans? I don't get it. I know that believing renders the "I don't know"s a "non-factor" (and by "I know" I mean "I know", not "I imagine&quotEye-wink. In fact it's called "believing" not for nothing. The problem however arised in the past when humans started investigating reality and saw that it's not entirely as described in the bible (obviously 'humans' includes also 'not christians'). I am not sure "spiritual house" is the correct term for me trying to understand things and obtain explanations. In a certain sense it goes obviously to touch morality, how I interact with other people, and what are my opinions about them, but it's only a part of it. And then it's not exactly that I'm doing the work myself, I rely on works of other people. Your "construction site" is efficient and productive in the beginning, but has a limited scope (go fast and has no way of developing later). I try to build something that lets me understand why I act like I do, and try to understand why others act like they do, for example. I am not satisfied from usual "judgments" like "this guy is doing bad things, so he's evil". I try to intuit or analyze why someone did (for example) a bad thing, and this could help me like it could help him. So does it require a lot of work? Absolutely yes, but the results are the best you can wish for. Part 2: as the most pacifist religion in the world, buddhism, had its kamikaze; christians too had (and have) their serial killers, snipers that shoots in the crowd, things like that. Little note: I am not making it a religion vs religion thing, I'm not even saying the fault is religion's, although these "practices" share some properties. Back to us: it doesn't matter that probably for you those were not true believers. What matters is that they did something they thought was ordered from "above", they did not knew why they committed those crimes. So as said before my problem is with this irrationality, is with "not knowing", and religions obviously say man can't know. By doing that, you can justify very ugly actions. I don't care if a god/religion preaches only good, love, or whatever, not knowing reasons and explanation is demonstrably wrong, in good or in bad. And often the game is just in the words, words like "life", "good", "god", which have not an objective meaning. Or in concepts. An example: Jesus was said to be 100% man and God. Can you verify that? Do you know how it could happen? Do you know what it means? Do you know what it's like to be God (doesn't mean 'what it feels like')? Obviously I'm not expecting an answer, I just want to make people think what do they know in the end. The "judging" I was talking about before appeared again when you say Jesus said "or with me or against me". As said, I'm not against him, I simply don't care. You could have used for example "who is not against me is with me". Jesus said that too, if I don't go wrong. And if I remember well he said he is near sinners, and the one that hates him. He said he wants to be like a friend. Then there is "but that doesn't affect the fact that it's true": well, that's the point because how can I retain it true if I don't see it being true? And also if apparently he cannot do anything for me, he has not appealing to me? To be honest most christian people (and books) said that because of following Jesus they are superior to other religions and non-believers -- and if the god/s/des of a particular religion exist then probably it would be like that. I'm not offended if you talk about things for your point of view. But if free will exists, then you're exercising a little judging. Small how much you want, but it's there. You may have total confidence if God and Jesus, but in the end what do you know about those questions? What is your place in this world? It's not your confidence that causes me question, as I said it's not new, but it's how you arrived there. Well, it's not a great thing believing in Jesus first to commune with God. I think this instead should be avoided until I don't know, something makes you believe? I mean, for a more sincere faith... But it wasn't this the point. Instead, if traditions and rituals are just that, apart from "gifts" and "tools" I see only "His Word" as something, how do I say it... tangible. So, are our inborn tools sufficient? Is the bible just tradition or it couldn't function without it?

 

Luca,

 

There is "one LORD, one Faith, one baptism, One God and Father of us all.  Other faiths are like the other objects of those faith idols - counterfeits and false confidences, broken cisterns that don't hold water.  

There are enough things very plain in the Bible to keep us busy for a long time before exploring the mysterious.  

Let me ask you this.  If God made a tree on a certain day - you could cut it and count the rings thinking it was maybe 150 years instead of 1 day.  It could be same with the stars.  But if a scientist has a fancy looking machine that blinks and screams "bling" you might take a scientist's word for something beyond his scope, indeed he might take his own word for the same thing.  I don't go to science for spiritual matters - and the Bible tells me how and Who spoke the world into existence.  The scientist may smoke his pipe and pontificate about it but it doesn't impress me.  My faith about whence the world came and where the world goes isn't taken from the scientist - any scientist.  I can read it for myself in Scripture - not only that I find out why we are here and what we are to be about while we're here and why.  The scientist can only find that where I found it.

"Taste and see that the LORD is good" is not as subjective as you think if you go through the "Door" ("I am the door of the sheep, all who go in enter by Me) - I mean some things are spiritually discerned.  You can have the eyes of your faith opened.  You can "know Who you have believed" like Paul.  You can have the Spirit as a guarantee and a guarantee is a guarantee that you know you have.

There is loads of logic in the gospel - deep motivational power.  Our brothers and sisters sang in the fire.  Notice the whole validity of Scripture hinges on, "Is Jesus the Son of God, God in the flesh - and did He die sinless but rather take our debt of sin to the cross?"  If you can't decide yes about Jesus the rest of the Scripture all falls like a house of cards.  If you don't accept Jesus as Savior the rest of Scripture is worthless to you.  It's comparable to saying Jesus "was a nice man" but not the Son of God - this is in essence calling Jesus a liar because He claimed to be God - "before Abraham I Am".  So there is no progress with Scripture unless you go through the door.  The "fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom".  

If you ask me the whole physical world is designed to point us to Jesus.  The Bible uses various metaphors that illustrate this - such as the "parable of the soils", the "parable of building a house on the sand or rock", the "heavens are telling the glory of God and the firmament proclaims His handiwork".  So there is a connection between the physical and the spiritual.  In fact, God becoming flesh bridges that gap.  His teachings using physical things as metaphors and parables are meant to ramp us up into spiritual thinking.

"You can't convict faith....(as wrong, by giving evidence of counterfeit faith or people with faith in the wrong thing).  Just because you can find examples of people that say they have faith but don't - or people who say their faith is in God (but it's not) doesn't mean there is no real faith.  

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" - if you study Jesus, see how He lived, read what He says, then look at the way people are living that say they believe in Jesus and you can tell which is which.  There are false christs - who say they have a message from God.  But God has confirmed Jesus as the Supreme Messenger - "This is My Beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased - Hear Ye Him!"  Thus I'm not worried about other messengers claiming to be God or be from God that don't acknowledge Jesus as King of Kings.  It's that simple.  

My construction site is not only efficient but farthest reaching - eternal in scope and never ending development exponentially.  If you really want to "understand why you act like you do" - give up what you want to do and rather do what Jesus wants you to do and you'll find more of yourself than you'll ever find with your approach - because you are seeking in faith.  "Give and it will be given to you, shaken down, running over".  Try it if you believe Jesus is LORD.  If you don't believe Jesus then you don't have this saving faith and can't please God.  God loves faith (check Hebrews 11).  Faith gives glory to God and Jesus.  "The righteous shall live by faith".  It's life that is life indeed.  

And sure you have your examples of people that say they believe in God but don't do what God says; for example, "make love your aim."  So you again are trying to convict true faith and true believers with wrong suspects.  So will you be so easily fooled?  Is this your "scientific method" at work?

You're not against Jesus - good.  You "simply don't care"?  Is apathy the opposite of love?  Apathy may be one of the hardest things to deal with.  Jesus said, "would that you were cold or hot - but since you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth".  I hope for better from you.  There is the promise in Scripture, "whosoever will may come" - which could mean you if you are one of the "whosoever wills".  

I am totally confident in the Bible being totally true and the God of the Bible being God and Jesus being the Son of God - and that total confidence and faith I think can easily be perceived to you as judging - I would guess mainly because it disagrees with your confidence and faith.  As far as being superior to you I don't view myself to be that in any way.  There is no good in me except Christ.  I was dead in my sin and trespasses and Jesus has made me alive in Him.  

I think if you were seeking God in Jesus, I don't mean faking it but honestly inquiring you could find out the answer.  

As far as our "inborn tools" - we do have a spirit that will live forever.  But we are all fallen, broken, trapped.  As the light shines on the situation we begin to see how totally helpless we are before God - but He is rich in mercy.  He delights in forgiving us - to the point of sending His Own Son to die for us.  We are capable of believing the Truth as presented in the Bible - which It Is.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Kapkao
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Jeffrick wrote:     In

Jeffrick wrote:

 

    In fact I believe you so much I encourage you to go join you jesus and his daddy in the  happily life ever lasting as soon as possible.  With your glee and adherence why haven't you committed suicide already?

    Peace be with you brother, only god knows that you realy need a piece.  Dilentin by your choice of words:   take your meds and irritate us in the morrow; if you could be so religiously kind.

I seem to be getting quite a bit of of mileage out of this post lately.

Nothing unusual, right guys? Not even a mysterious "block cipher" contained in the '4 mysterious smileys' in this 'smiley collage', right guys?

Just checking... delete if necessary.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Jeffrick wrote:     In

point dp is POINTLESS!


 

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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zarathustra wrote:The

zarathustra wrote:

The infidel king of Persia, out of pure spite for Elvis, was now blocking all lithium exports.  Although the reduced supply produced some errata, the trollgarithm still managed to duplicate the Old Troll fairly accurately:

The bible is the werd of Gawd, the Criator of the ntyre yoonyverse. The werd of an infynit Gawd can never be applyde 2 broadly.

You as a meer mortle can tell truth and lies. But Gawd never lyze. Everything He sez is troo, and verryfied by jeezus.

Izlomm is a false reelidjinn, and Olla is a false gawd. But I follow the one Troo Religion and the wun True Gawd: Jeezus. If everyone followed Jeezus, it wood prevent ALL bad thingz.

Gawd haz no limits, and nythr does His word, the byble. I kant say “I don’t know”, becuz I have the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Atheists beeleave the snarwidgit of Science and reject the gospel of trooth. I aksept the gospil becawse it’s true and it eggzists.

Maybe atheists bileev in aliens and the moarallitee of Eesoup. With Jeezus protecting me like a tertill shell, I will Cross the finish line slow and steddy, while the atheists are still asleap, dreeming of snarfwidgits.

Maybe u think yore life is abundint from your ickspearyints, but untle you ekspirrience Jeezus, you whoan’t knowe how little you hav without Jeezus.

If you rijekt Jeezus, yew’ll never understand.

 

 

I think I'm in love with "GOD"

(what about that one... any block cipher there? No? K)

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


Fonzie
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DISTRACTION OVER SUBSTANCE?

Kapkao wrote:

Jeffrick wrote:

 

    In fact I believe you so much I encourage you to go join you jesus and his daddy in the  happily life ever lasting as soon as possible.  With your glee and adherence why haven't you committed suicide already?

    Peace be with you brother, only god knows that you realy need a piece.  Dilentin by your choice of words:   take your meds and irritate us in the morrow; if you could be so religiously kind.

I seem to be getting quite a bit of of mileage out of this post lately.

Nothing unusual, right guys? Not even a mysterious "block cipher" contained in the '4 mysterious smileys' in this 'smiley collage', right guys?

Just checking... delete if necessary.

 

 

Kapk,

 

Any distraction will work in the focus of the question of atheist substance......?

 

 

 

 


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 ATHEIST SUBSTANCE  

 

 

 


luca
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atheist superstance

Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

 

There is "one LORD, one Faith, one baptism, One God and Father of us all.  Other faiths are like the other objects of those faith idols - counterfeits and false confidences, broken cisterns that don't hold water.  

There are enough things very plain in the Bible to keep us busy for a long time before exploring the mysterious.  

Let me ask you this.  If God made a tree on a certain day - you could cut it and count the rings thinking it was maybe 150 years instead of 1 day.  It could be same with the stars.  But if a scientist has a fancy looking machine that blinks and screams "bling" you might take a scientist's word for something beyond his scope, indeed he might take his own word for the same thing.  I don't go to science for spiritual matters - and the Bible tells me how and Who spoke the world into existence.  The scientist may smoke his pipe and pontificate about it but it doesn't impress me.  My faith about whence the world came and where the world goes isn't taken from the scientist - any scientist.  I can read it for myself in Scripture - not only that I find out why we are here and what we are to be about while we're here and why.  The scientist can only find that where I found it.

"Taste and see that the LORD is good" is not as subjective as you think if you go through the "Door" ("I am the door of the sheep, all who go in enter by Me) - I mean some things are spiritually discerned.  You can have the eyes of your faith opened.  You can "know Who you have believed" like Paul.  You can have the Spirit as a guarantee and a guarantee is a guarantee that you know you have.

There is loads of logic in the gospel - deep motivational power.  Our brothers and sisters sang in the fire.  Notice the whole validity of Scripture hinges on, "Is Jesus the Son of God, God in the flesh - and did He die sinless but rather take our debt of sin to the cross?"  If you can't decide yes about Jesus the rest of the Scripture all falls like a house of cards.  If you don't accept Jesus as Savior the rest of Scripture is worthless to you.  It's comparable to saying Jesus "was a nice man" but not the Son of God - this is in essence calling Jesus a liar because He claimed to be God - "before Abraham I Am".  So there is no progress with Scripture unless you go through the door.  The "fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom".  

If you ask me the whole physical world is designed to point us to Jesus.  The Bible uses various metaphors that illustrate this - such as the "parable of the soils", the "parable of building a house on the sand or rock", the "heavens are telling the glory of God and the firmament proclaims His handiwork".  So there is a connection between the physical and the spiritual.  In fact, God becoming flesh bridges that gap.  His teachings using physical things as metaphors and parables are meant to ramp us up into spiritual thinking.

"You can't convict faith....(as wrong, by giving evidence of counterfeit faith or people with faith in the wrong thing).  Just because you can find examples of people that say they have faith but don't - or people who say their faith is in God (but it's not) doesn't mean there is no real faith.  

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" - if you study Jesus, see how He lived, read what He says, then look at the way people are living that say they believe in Jesus and you can tell which is which.  There are false christs - who say they have a message from God.  But God has confirmed Jesus as the Supreme Messenger - "This is My Beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased - Hear Ye Him!"  Thus I'm not worried about other messengers claiming to be God or be from God that don't acknowledge Jesus as King of Kings.  It's that simple.  

My construction site is not only efficient but farthest reaching - eternal in scope and never ending development exponentially.  If you really want to "understand why you act like you do" - give up what you want to do and rather do what Jesus wants you to do and you'll find more of yourself than you'll ever find with your approach - because you are seeking in faith.  "Give and it will be given to you, shaken down, running over".  Try it if you believe Jesus is LORD.  If you don't believe Jesus then you don't have this saving faith and can't please God.  God loves faith (check Hebrews 11).  Faith gives glory to God and Jesus.  "The righteous shall live by faith".  It's life that is life indeed.  

And sure you have your examples of people that say they believe in God but don't do what God says; for example, "make love your aim."  So you again are trying to convict true faith and true believers with wrong suspects.  So will you be so easily fooled?  Is this your "scientific method" at work?

You're not against Jesus - good.  You "simply don't care"?  Is apathy the opposite of love?  Apathy may be one of the hardest things to deal with.  Jesus said, "would that you were cold or hot - but since you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth".  I hope for better from you.  There is the promise in Scripture, "whosoever will may come" - which could mean you if you are one of the "whosoever wills".  

I am totally confident in the Bible being totally true and the God of the Bible being God and Jesus being the Son of God - and that total confidence and faith I think can easily be perceived to you as judging - I would guess mainly because it disagrees with your confidence and faith.  As far as being superior to you I don't view myself to be that in any way.  There is no good in me except Christ.  I was dead in my sin and trespasses and Jesus has made me alive in Him.  

I think if you were seeking God in Jesus, I don't mean faking it but honestly inquiring you could find out the answer.  

As far as our "inborn tools" - we do have a spirit that will live forever.  But we are all fallen, broken, trapped.  As the light shines on the situation we begin to see how totally helpless we are before God - but He is rich in mercy.  He delights in forgiving us - to the point of sending His Own Son to die for us.  We are capable of believing the Truth as presented in the Bible - which It Is.

You may think that other faiths are cisterns that don't hold water, but that's an opinion. Effectively, you don't know.

With 7 billions people on this world I think there's space for bible's plain things and mysterious things too.

If God created a tree that is 150 years old, it wouldn't matter that it's been made that day. Because all of his properties are exactly like if its 150 years old, then it *is* 150 years old, and it doesn't make sense to distinguish between "it's old" and "made today", because you can't. Let me restate another time: if it's made with every atom, every particle, every physical law, like it's 150 years old, then it is 150 years old. The same is with stars. It wouldn't matter if they were created *pooof!* like this, because they follow laws, they follow logic, so it has a sense to investigate in the past (repeat: because they are made like they have one [a past, a coherent one between them]).
I know you're saying "but it doesn't mean that you shouldn't evince the beginning of the universe from that"... Still, astrophysicists have the right to investigate, and if the physics they find makes sense then it's helpful to us -- and indeed it does. That it goes against the bible, hey, not their fault. Created or not, the reality we describe is the one we live in -- and laws that govern stars are active until this day.
About science and spiritual matters, we diverge in that too.

I don't see how God is not subjective if you have to believe as a premise. What are 'some things' that are spiritually discerned?

Loads of logic in the gospel? It depends from the point of view, maybe. For me sure it's not so.
It's not the bible that relies on "Jesus son of God eccetera", but only the new testament Sticking out tongue
The point is also that it should matter what I accept (Jesus the savior), if something is true then it's true. Why one couldn't argue about it just with words?

Excuse me, are you saying that the parables have something to do with "the physical world is designed to point us to Jesus"?
Because that some religion arises claiming a messiah is surely not unheard of, but I don't think you were speaking in these terms.
If the new testament's Jesus was real, then he'd be a connection between the spiritual and the physical, but not only it goes every law we know, I think also we were talking about a different meaning of 'spiritual', probably morality.
(are the maxwell equations' pointing to Jesus? or the gay-lussac laws? I don't get if that's what you are saying)

The problem of finding people that have faith but don't is that someone should "judge" if this faith is true or not. Obviously being that only in christianity there are thousands of currents (excluding non-denominationalists), the problem seems to be extremely present and probably not solvable (except maybe by declaring all of them false Eye-wink ).
And then the issues in understanding what a person does or what a faith says is that you should interpret the bible more or less in an univocal way -- but some of them doesn't even agree on what books the bible is composed of.
Clearly studying the (supposed) life of Jesus and his messages is not sufficient to determine who understand if one is a true believer or not. You can learn it from history, for example: different meanings in words mean different understanding of concepts. You can say "life", you can say "good", or even "man", but a thousand years ago they were not what they mean today. The difference is not only in time but also in space. The definitions are not given in the bible, instead our understanding increases investigating with science, history, and other disciplines like these. Really, there's not much to say.
Except for another thing: until something external arrives to confirm at least some bit of christian faith's concepts, the other faiths are worth the same as that one, since other faiths rely on "internal evidence" too.

That your construction site is 'eternal' sorry but it is just an empty word (in the sense of 'meaning', 'realizing what is being told'). It's so far from what we experience everyday that it's not comprehensible, probably not even feasible.
But what do I care most is that the one I try to build can be extremely useful in this world, the only one we know, and above all the one in we suffer. People seems to be glad to receive medical aid, infrastructures, communication, and all these "little" things.
If I want to understand what I am, I'll study human life, I'll study my actions, I'll study consciousness. I will not give up and do what Jesus wants me to do because that will not help me "find more of myself". In fact, I am questioning you on how much deeply you know about those words.

I'm not trying to convict true faith and true believers, because as of now I can't think of a true faith. It's not even that they are all "false", but that they are not possible (not possible the faiths I know and that I have discussed with the respective believers).
I place faiths and religions completely on a cultural/traditional plane. So I don't "blame" believers or gods for anything, be it suicides, massacres, whatever. And I don't "blame" them for love, good, or whatever again. I just think it is a state we had to pass, given the "initial conditions". We will eventually overcome it.
But I could change my mind if you tell my why I should "make love my aim".

Apathy is indeed a bad thing, but it's not "lack of love", so I'm not apathetic towards Jesus. It's like saying you're apathetic to a pebble. It just doesn't awake any interest, and I think I said it before. Everything claimed in the new testament is not above my "threshold", is not worthy, or valuable, or good nor useful knowledge (in respect to what I already know).

No, it's not total confidence in the bible that I perceive as judging, I already said that. I said that you are the one responsible for reading and interpreting your bible. And for applying it, too. That are the processes where the judging from your part come in act. If you wouldn't exercise any judgment then you would be a robot executing a program without any responsibility nor any decision, but you're not, you're a person.
As for me, I think I'm lucky because I don't need confidence.

I am curious about where does this helplessness resides, because I'm not sure I see it.
And also to my understandings it's not that people before Jesus lived so bad.


zarathustra
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Preliminary field-testing had confirmed that the trollgarithm failed to process the input

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 50± µ3 time

 Nonetheless, it was still quite simple to duplicate the Troll's output:
 

Quote:
You may think that other faiths are cisterns that don't hold water, but that's an opinion.

It is an opinion drawn from the Fountain of True Faith (Jesus), when all other faiths are poisoned wells.

 

Quote:
Effectively, you don't know. With 7 billions people on this world I think there's space for bible's plain things and mysterious things too.

God is beyond all space and time, and 7 billion mysteries are nothing compared to his infinite wisdom, and that is the plain truth.

Quote:
If God created a tree that is 150 years old, it wouldn't matter that it's been made that day.

All that matters is god offers us the fruit from the Tree of Life, which lasts for all eternity.

Quote:
... Still, astrophysicists have the right to investigate, and if the physics they find makes sense then it's helpful to us -- and indeed it does. That it goes against the bible, hey, not their fault.Created or not, the reality we describe is the one we live in -- and laws that govern stars are active until this day.

They have every right to deny the Creator of the universe, and the reality that he is the eternal lawgiver -- not just to stars, but to all things.

Quote:
 About science and spiritual matters, we diverge in that too. I don't see how God is not subjective if you have to believe as a premise.

God is the Premise on which all Truth is built.  Anything else is like a house of toothpicks built on sand.

Quote:
What are 'some things' that are spiritually discerned? Loads of logic in the gospel? It depends from the point of view, maybe. For me sure it's not so. It's not the bible that relies on "Jesus son of God eccetera", but only the new testament Sticking out tongue The point is also that it should matter what I accept (Jesus the savior), if something is true then it's true. Why one couldn't argue about it just with words?

 All things are spiritually discerned when jesus is your guide.  My point of view leads to the Truth, because Jesus has cured my blindness.

And you are correct:  Jesus is true because he's true.  When you accept the One True Word, there is nothing to argue about.

Quote:
Clearly studying the (supposed) life of Jesus and his messages is not sufficient to determine who understand if one is a true believer or not. You can learn it from history, for example: different meanings in words mean different understanding of concepts. You can say "life", you can say "good", or even "man", but a thousand years ago they were not what they mean today.

The True Believer accepts the one True God into his heart -- Jesus. Through Jesus, "good" is "good" for all eternity, and gives "meaning" to the "life" of every "man". 

 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Fonzie
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FINE SPIRITUAL HOMEBUILDING - WHAT HAVE YOU GOT ZARA?

zarathustra wrote:

Preliminary field-testing had confirmed that the trollgarithm failed to process the input

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 50± µ3 time

 Nonetheless, it was still quite simple to duplicate the Troll's output:
 

Quote:
You may think that other faiths are cisterns that don't hold water, but that's an opinion.

It is an opinion drawn from the Fountain of True Faith (Jesus), when all other faiths are poisoned wells.

 

Quote:
Effectively, you don't know. With 7 billions people on this world I think there's space for bible's plain things and mysterious things too.

God is beyond all space and time, and 7 billion mysteries are nothing compared to his infinite wisdom, and that is the plain truth.

Quote:
If God created a tree that is 150 years old, it wouldn't matter that it's been made that day.

All that matters is god offers us the fruit from the Tree of Life, which lasts for all eternity.

Quote:
... Still, astrophysicists have the right to investigate, and if the physics they find makes sense then it's helpful to us -- and indeed it does. That it goes against the bible, hey, not their fault.Created or not, the reality we describe is the one we live in -- and laws that govern stars are active until this day.

They have every right to deny the Creator of the universe, and the reality that he is the eternal lawgiver -- not just to stars, but to all things.

Quote:
 About science and spiritual matters, we diverge in that too. I don't see how God is not subjective if you have to believe as a premise.

God is the Premise on which all Truth is built.  Anything else is like a house of toothpicks built on sand.

Quote:
What are 'some things' that are spiritually discerned? Loads of logic in the gospel? It depends from the point of view, maybe. For me sure it's not so. It's not the bible that relies on "Jesus son of God eccetera", but only the new testament Sticking out tongue The point is also that it should matter what I accept (Jesus the savior), if something is true then it's true. Why one couldn't argue about it just with words?

 All things are spiritually discerned when jesus is your guide.  My point of view leads to the Truth, because Jesus has cured my blindness.

And you are correct:  Jesus is true because he's true.  When you accept the One True Word, there is nothing to argue about.

Quote:
Clearly studying the (supposed) life of Jesus and his messages is not sufficient to determine who understand if one is a true believer or not. You can learn it from history, for example: different meanings in words mean different understanding of concepts. You can say "life", you can say "good", or even "man", but a thousand years ago they were not what they mean today.

The True Believer accepts the one True God into his heart -- Jesus. Through Jesus, "good" is "good" for all eternity, and gives "meaning" to the "life" of every "man". 

 

 

Zara,

 

I never did say I didn't create the "what faith you" thread did I?  So what's the point?  I am neither Mephibosheth nor Fonzie and I'm pretty sure you are not Zarathustra.  But I know that Jesus is the Son of God and died for my sins - yours too if you accept the gift of grace.  

 

I can't understand why you avoid laying out your better way of life, your more hopeful way of life, your more secure and happy way of life for all to see and share rather than wasting time calling me troll this and troll that - not too creatively BTW.

 

 The point is not who can call the other the nastiest names or can write a little ditty that rhymes and mocks and parades a gift at said verbal graffiti - but rather what "works for me" being laid out for all to see I ask what "works for you" (atheist I assume) and why and how does it work.  I'm not tuning in for music nor to see your imaginative exploit into sugar town or a dissertation chosen with a whirling dartboard - but ....

 

What is your "Real-ville" plan for atheist living and how does it work - how does it inspire you and give you hope?  What is the foundation it is set upon, what graces its walls, what powers its lights, what guest does it entertain and what joy is shared before its hearth?

 

Another common tactic has been, "Oh, we said all that a bunch of times a long, long time ago".  Yeah, I think it was longer ago than evolution was supposed to happen.  I haven't seen it laid out.  

 

And my point is this:  "Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build labor in vain".  You guys are passing up the greatest offer in the universe.  The LORD is ready and willing to plan your house, light your house, work with you on your house, then live with you in the house - and death won't change that.  I am assuming you discern the analogy.    

How efficient is this Zara?  What do you have that's better?  And is it really better?  If so - let's see it laid out.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Fonzie
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LIGHT VERSUS DARKNESS - AND THE WINNER IS.....

luca wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

 

There is "one LORD, one Faith, one baptism, One God and Father of us all.  Other faiths are like the other objects of those faith idols - counterfeits and false confidences, broken cisterns that don't hold water.  

There are enough things very plain in the Bible to keep us busy for a long time before exploring the mysterious.  

Let me ask you this.  If God made a tree on a certain day - you could cut it and count the rings thinking it was maybe 150 years instead of 1 day.  It could be same with the stars.  But if a scientist has a fancy looking machine that blinks and screams "bling" you might take a scientist's word for something beyond his scope, indeed he might take his own word for the same thing.  I don't go to science for spiritual matters - and the Bible tells me how and Who spoke the world into existence.  The scientist may smoke his pipe and pontificate about it but it doesn't impress me.  My faith about whence the world came and where the world goes isn't taken from the scientist - any scientist.  I can read it for myself in Scripture - not only that I find out why we are here and what we are to be about while we're here and why.  The scientist can only find that where I found it.

"Taste and see that the LORD is good" is not as subjective as you think if you go through the "Door" ("I am the door of the sheep, all who go in enter by Me) - I mean some things are spiritually discerned.  You can have the eyes of your faith opened.  You can "know Who you have believed" like Paul.  You can have the Spirit as a guarantee and a guarantee is a guarantee that you know you have.

There is loads of logic in the gospel - deep motivational power.  Our brothers and sisters sang in the fire.  Notice the whole validity of Scripture hinges on, "Is Jesus the Son of God, God in the flesh - and did He die sinless but rather take our debt of sin to the cross?"  If you can't decide yes about Jesus the rest of the Scripture all falls like a house of cards.  If you don't accept Jesus as Savior the rest of Scripture is worthless to you.  It's comparable to saying Jesus "was a nice man" but not the Son of God - this is in essence calling Jesus a liar because He claimed to be God - "before Abraham I Am".  So there is no progress with Scripture unless you go through the door.  The "fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom".  

If you ask me the whole physical world is designed to point us to Jesus.  The Bible uses various metaphors that illustrate this - such as the "parable of the soils", the "parable of building a house on the sand or rock", the "heavens are telling the glory of God and the firmament proclaims His handiwork".  So there is a connection between the physical and the spiritual.  In fact, God becoming flesh bridges that gap.  His teachings using physical things as metaphors and parables are meant to ramp us up into spiritual thinking.

"You can't convict faith....(as wrong, by giving evidence of counterfeit faith or people with faith in the wrong thing).  Just because you can find examples of people that say they have faith but don't - or people who say their faith is in God (but it's not) doesn't mean there is no real faith.  

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" - if you study Jesus, see how He lived, read what He says, then look at the way people are living that say they believe in Jesus and you can tell which is which.  There are false christs - who say they have a message from God.  But God has confirmed Jesus as the Supreme Messenger - "This is My Beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased - Hear Ye Him!"  Thus I'm not worried about other messengers claiming to be God or be from God that don't acknowledge Jesus as King of Kings.  It's that simple.  

My construction site is not only efficient but farthest reaching - eternal in scope and never ending development exponentially.  If you really want to "understand why you act like you do" - give up what you want to do and rather do what Jesus wants you to do and you'll find more of yourself than you'll ever find with your approach - because you are seeking in faith.  "Give and it will be given to you, shaken down, running over".  Try it if you believe Jesus is LORD.  If you don't believe Jesus then you don't have this saving faith and can't please God.  God loves faith (check Hebrews 11).  Faith gives glory to God and Jesus.  "The righteous shall live by faith".  It's life that is life indeed.  

And sure you have your examples of people that say they believe in God but don't do what God says; for example, "make love your aim."  So you again are trying to convict true faith and true believers with wrong suspects.  So will you be so easily fooled?  Is this your "scientific method" at work?

You're not against Jesus - good.  You "simply don't care"?  Is apathy the opposite of love?  Apathy may be one of the hardest things to deal with.  Jesus said, "would that you were cold or hot - but since you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth".  I hope for better from you.  There is the promise in Scripture, "whosoever will may come" - which could mean you if you are one of the "whosoever wills".  

I am totally confident in the Bible being totally true and the God of the Bible being God and Jesus being the Son of God - and that total confidence and faith I think can easily be perceived to you as judging - I would guess mainly because it disagrees with your confidence and faith.  As far as being superior to you I don't view myself to be that in any way.  There is no good in me except Christ.  I was dead in my sin and trespasses and Jesus has made me alive in Him.  

I think if you were seeking God in Jesus, I don't mean faking it but honestly inquiring you could find out the answer.  

As far as our "inborn tools" - we do have a spirit that will live forever.  But we are all fallen, broken, trapped.  As the light shines on the situation we begin to see how totally helpless we are before God - but He is rich in mercy.  He delights in forgiving us - to the point of sending His Own Son to die for us.  We are capable of believing the Truth as presented in the Bible - which It Is.

You may think that other faiths are cisterns that don't hold water, but that's an opinion. Effectively, you don't know. With 7 billions people on this world I think there's space for bible's plain things and mysterious things too. If God created a tree that is 150 years old, it wouldn't matter that it's been made that day. Because all of his properties are exactly like if its 150 years old, then it *is* 150 years old, and it doesn't make sense to distinguish between "it's old" and "made today", because you can't. Let me restate another time: if it's made with every atom, every particle, every physical law, like it's 150 years old, then it is 150 years old. The same is with stars. It wouldn't matter if they were created *pooof!* like this, because they follow laws, they follow logic, so it has a sense to investigate in the past (repeat: because they are made like they have one [a past, a coherent one between them]). I know you're saying "but it doesn't mean that you shouldn't evince the beginning of the universe from that"... Still, astrophysicists have the right to investigate, and if the physics they find makes sense then it's helpful to us -- and indeed it does. That it goes against the bible, hey, not their fault. Created or not, the reality we describe is the one we live in -- and laws that govern stars are active until this day. About science and spiritual matters, we diverge in that too. I don't see how God is not subjective if you have to believe as a premise. What are 'some things' that are spiritually discerned? Loads of logic in the gospel? It depends from the point of view, maybe. For me sure it's not so. It's not the bible that relies on "Jesus son of God eccetera", but only the new testament Sticking out tongue The point is also that it should matter what I accept (Jesus the savior), if something is true then it's true. Why one couldn't argue about it just with words? Excuse me, are you saying that the parables have something to do with "the physical world is designed to point us to Jesus"? Because that some religion arises claiming a messiah is surely not unheard of, but I don't think you were speaking in these terms. If the new testament's Jesus was real, then he'd be a connection between the spiritual and the physical, but not only it goes every law we know, I think also we were talking about a different meaning of 'spiritual', probably morality. (are the maxwell equations' pointing to Jesus? or the gay-lussac laws? I don't get if that's what you are saying) The problem of finding people that have faith but don't is that someone should "judge" if this faith is true or not. Obviously being that only in christianity there are thousands of currents (excluding non-denominationalists), the problem seems to be extremely present and probably not solvable (except maybe by declaring all of them false Eye-wink ). And then the issues in understanding what a person does or what a faith says is that you should interpret the bible more or less in an univocal way -- but some of them doesn't even agree on what books the bible is composed of. Clearly studying the (supposed) life of Jesus and his messages is not sufficient to determine who understand if one is a true believer or not. You can learn it from history, for example: different meanings in words mean different understanding of concepts. You can say "life", you can say "good", or even "man", but a thousand years ago they were not what they mean today. The difference is not only in time but also in space. The definitions are not given in the bible, instead our understanding increases investigating with science, history, and other disciplines like these. Really, there's not much to say. Except for another thing: until something external arrives to confirm at least some bit of christian faith's concepts, the other faiths are worth the same as that one, since other faiths rely on "internal evidence" too. That your construction site is 'eternal' sorry but it is just an empty word (in the sense of 'meaning', 'realizing what is being told'). It's so far from what we experience everyday that it's not comprehensible, probably not even feasible. But what do I care most is that the one I try to build can be extremely useful in this world, the only one we know, and above all the one in we suffer. People seems to be glad to receive medical aid, infrastructures, communication, and all these "little" things. If I want to understand what I am, I'll study human life, I'll study my actions, I'll study consciousness. I will not give up and do what Jesus wants me to do because that will not help me "find more of myself". In fact, I am questioning you on how much deeply you know about those words. I'm not trying to convict true faith and true believers, because as of now I can't think of a true faith. It's not even that they are all "false", but that they are not possible (not possible the faiths I know and that I have discussed with the respective believers). I place faiths and religions completely on a cultural/traditional plane. So I don't "blame" believers or gods for anything, be it suicides, massacres, whatever. And I don't "blame" them for love, good, or whatever again. I just think it is a state we had to pass, given the "initial conditions". We will eventually overcome it. But I could change my mind if you tell my why I should "make love my aim". Apathy is indeed a bad thing, but it's not "lack of love", so I'm not apathetic towards Jesus. It's like saying you're apathetic to a pebble. It just doesn't awake any interest, and I think I said it before. Everything claimed in the new testament is not above my "threshold", is not worthy, or valuable, or good nor useful knowledge (in respect to what I already know). No, it's not total confidence in the bible that I perceive as judging, I already said that. I said that you are the one responsible for reading and interpreting your bible. And for applying it, too. That are the processes where the judging from your part come in act. If you wouldn't exercise any judgment then you would be a robot executing a program without any responsibility nor any decision, but you're not, you're a person. As for me, I think I'm lucky because I don't need confidence. I am curious about where does this helplessness resides, because I'm not sure I see it. And also to my understandings it's not that people before Jesus lived so bad.

 

 

 

 

Luca,

 

That other faiths are cisterns that don't hold water is more than an opinion - it represents faith in Scripture enlightened by personal experience of the light of the Spirit.  

There is space for many views but numbers don't validate truth.  Don't intentionally forget Noah's flood or that the world we live in is being stored up for fire - a loosening of the basic elements which we know is possible, right?  

As for the experience of the New Life in Christ, just as one can experience guilt of sin the new experience of being cleansed, all things made new, and continually cleansed by the Light are discernible the way we are constructed - spirits in a house.  We can entertain the divine guest.  We are capable of fellowship with God through faith in Jesus.  We are continually cleansed as we walk "in the Light as He is in the Light" - as the sun has a continual cleansing effect on the earth the Light has walking in Christ in faith.

We live in a world where things are not as they appear - and we are all fooled before we realize it.  There are two points of view - the devil's, and God's.  From the devil's point of view God's precepts and instruction are not logical and mocked.  From God's point of view the devil's "king for a day" is an "eternal fool".  "The fool says in his heart there is no God" - if accepted there are billions of people regarded as the most intelligent, most educated, funniest, wealthiest, most powerful... that actually are fools from God's point of view, indeed they haven't even started down the road of knowledge because "the fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.  God's point of view will stand.  Man is in the middle and it is his to decide who's right.  Though billions take the devil's view it won't stand.  

The whole Bible points to Jesus the Son of God, the Lamb of God.  He was with God before the world was created.  All things were made through Him and for Him.  The gospel was all planned before the world was created.  

The only way to live the new life that God has given us is by "walking in the Light" which is walking by faith in Jesus.  I agree that this wouldn't be possible if the resurrected Jesus didn't actually exist you couldn't do this, but He does and you can.  I understand why this seems illogical without faith in Jesus.   

 

Sorry I didn't get to consider your answer before - it's a long story but I wasn't able to even read your answer for several weeks.  Actually I am short of time this morning in answering it.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


luca
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Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

 

That other faiths are cisterns that don't hold water is more than an opinion - it represents faith in Scripture enlightened by personal experience of the light of the Spirit.  

There is space for many views but numbers don't validate truth.  Don't intentionally forget Noah's flood or that the world we live in is being stored up for fire - a loosening of the basic elements which we know is possible, right?  

As for the experience of the New Life in Christ, just as one can experience guilt of sin the new experience of being cleansed, all things made new, and continually cleansed by the Light are discernible the way we are constructed - spirits in a house.  We can entertain the divine guest.  We are capable of fellowship with God through faith in Jesus.  We are continually cleansed as we walk "in the Light as He is in the Light" - as the sun has a continual cleansing effect on the earth the Light has walking in Christ in faith.

We live in a world where things are not as they appear - and we are all fooled before we realize it.  There are two points of view - the devil's, and God's.  From the devil's point of view God's precepts and instruction are not logical and mocked.  From God's point of view the devil's "king for a day" is an "eternal fool".  "The fool says in his heart there is no God" - if accepted there are billions of people regarded as the most intelligent, most educated, funniest, wealthiest, most powerful... that actually are fools from God's point of view, indeed they haven't even started down the road of knowledge because "the fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.  God's point of view will stand.  Man is in the middle and it is his to decide who's right.  Though billions take the devil's view it won't stand.  

The whole Bible points to Jesus the Son of God, the Lamb of God.  He was with God before the world was created.  All things were made through Him and for Him.  The gospel was all planned before the world was created.  

The only way to live the new life that God has given us is by "walking in the Light" which is walking by faith in Jesus.  I agree that this wouldn't be possible if the resurrected Jesus didn't actually exist you couldn't do this, but He does and you can.  I understand why this seems illogical without faith in Jesus.   

 

Sorry I didn't get to consider your answer before - it's a long story but I wasn't able to even read your answer for several weeks.  Actually I am short of time this morning in answering it.


I would say that there are no faiths that "hold water", but we're speaking from your point of view: if other faiths/traditions exist and continue to exist, then a religion is not exactly what you think of it. Keep in mind anybody says of his religion what you say of yours, so a buddhist would not be interested in converting to christianity as you would not be interested in converting to buddhism (although the reasons may vary from person to person). People of other religions lives with no more or no less problems than yourself, that's probably the main answer to your question.

Numbers don't validate truth because they are statistics - when talking about reality - but surely they can give ideas/representations of things. I don't get what basic elements are loosening, sorry.

The "continued cleansing" is not an exclusive of christianism, I'm pretty sure of that, but not pertaining to a religion doesn't exclude this effect on people. In the end it only cognitively matters what you know. So at that point one could clearly see that "fellowship with X" is not needed, because it really was a fake thing just to begin with, and the 'cleansing' too is viewed as a prison, although maybe a gilded one.

Things are not as they appear? Sure, just look at quantum mechanics. Are we fooled before we realize it? Yes, but we're making a relatively good job to free ourselves for old traditions and following the path of knowing who we are really. But about the devil and his friend fritz I'll tell you this: can you choose to be hungry? when you are extremely hungry, can you choose not to steal an apple?
The questions can be numerous: can you choose not to breathe? Can you choose to stop your heart? Can you choose to not blink your eyes? Can you choose the exact way to act when in pain? Or confused?
I think you use the word "choose" in a twisted and superficial way.

The bible does not point to Jesus. Ask a hebrew. The bible points to a messiah, sure, but it's a very old and a not sufficiently precise (for the knowledge reached today) way to do it. In fact, to accept it you have to believe it first.

Well I'm not interested in any "new life offer" that has been given to me, don't care from who. Now please let's understand ourselves, obviously this world is in need of people who take in better consideration the world around them, but it's not Jesus or who for he that we need: with them we would obtain an ancient life Sticking out tongue .
The fact is: there's no need for a new life. Faith cannot give you anything that you cannot have without it. Then I repeat: ok, more cooperation, more 'love', more of this sort of thing, but just to make one example: you cannot ask people to just be christians, this would mean changing their roots, so you don't even arrive to the point of judging if it's a good or a bad thing, it's unpracticable, it just won't happen.

Time: answer when you want, as long as I'll hang about here and the thread is open I'll see it. Nothing but our agreement is forcing us to discuss here.


zarathustra
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It was still quite easy to duplicate the Troll's output.  

 

Quote:
I would say that there are no faiths that "hold water", but we're speaking from your point of view: if other faiths/traditions exist and continue to exist, then a religion is not exactly what you think of it. Keep in mind anybody says of his religion what you say of yours, so a buddhist would not be interested in converting to christianity as you would not be interested in converting to buddhism (although the reasons may vary from person to person). People of other religions lives with no more or no less problems than yourself, that's probably the main answer to your question.

My faith holds no water, but instead walks on its surface.  My faith has baptized me in the Water of Eternal Life.  People of other religions may have problems like me, but they do not have the solution to all problems:  jesus.  

Quote:
Numbers don't validate truth because they are statistics - when talking about reality - but surely they can give ideas/representations of things. I don't get what basic elements are loosening, sorry.

The only Number you need is 1, since jesus is the 1 true god.  If Satan is the Constipation of our souls, jesus is the prune juice that loosens the basic elements. 
 

Quote:
The "continued cleansing" is not an exclusive of christianism, I'm pretty sure of that, but not pertaining to a religion doesn't exclude this effect on people. In the end it only cognitively matters what you know. So at that point one could clearly see that "fellowship with X" is not needed, because it really was a fake thing just to begin with, and the 'cleansing' too is viewed as a prison, although maybe a gilded one.

Jesus is the ultimate cleansing agent, and he is exclusive to christianism, I am sure of that.  Sin is the prison that jesus frees us from.  Sin is the prison that jesus frees us from.  

Quote:
Things are not as they appear? Sure, just look at quantum mechanics. Are we fooled before we realize it? Yes, but we're making a relatively good job to free ourselves for old traditions and following the path of knowing who we are really. But about the devil and his friend fritz I'll tell you this: can you choose to be hungry? when you are extremely hungry, can you choose not to steal an apple? The questions can be numerous: can you choose not to breathe? Can you choose to stop your heart? Can you choose to not blink your eyes? Can you choose the exact way to act when in pain? Or confused? I think you use the word "choose" in a twisted and superficial way.

 Things are as they appear only when the Eternal Light shines upon them.  We are defective machines, and Jesus is the Quantum Mechanic who can fix them.  We have chosen to reject the Bread of Life, and instead eat the Forbidden Apple.   Only jesus can untwist and

Quote:
The bible does not point to Jesus. Ask a hebrew. The bible points to a messiah, sure, but it's a very old and a not sufficiently precise (for the knowledge reached today) way to do it. In fact, to accept it you have to believe it first.
 

It was written that the Hebrews would reject their messiah the bible points to, so their rejection proves that jesus is the messiah.  I choose to accept jesus because I believe in Him.

 

Yet even after all these weeks, the trollgarithm could not process:

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 51± µ3 time

 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Fonzie
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luca wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

 

That other faiths are cisterns that don't hold water is more than an opinion - it represents faith in Scripture enlightened by personal experience of the light of the Spirit.  

There is space for many views but numbers don't validate truth.  Don't intentionally forget Noah's flood or that the world we live in is being stored up for fire - a loosening of the basic elements which we know is possible, right?  

As for the experience of the New Life in Christ, just as one can experience guilt of sin the new experience of being cleansed, all things made new, and continually cleansed by the Light are discernible the way we are constructed - spirits in a house.  We can entertain the divine guest.  We are capable of fellowship with God through faith in Jesus.  We are continually cleansed as we walk "in the Light as He is in the Light" - as the sun has a continual cleansing effect on the earth the Light has walking in Christ in faith.

We live in a world where things are not as they appear - and we are all fooled before we realize it.  There are two points of view - the devil's, and God's.  From the devil's point of view God's precepts and instruction are not logical and mocked.  From God's point of view the devil's "king for a day" is an "eternal fool".  "The fool says in his heart there is no God" - if accepted there are billions of people regarded as the most intelligent, most educated, funniest, wealthiest, most powerful... that actually are fools from God's point of view, indeed they haven't even started down the road of knowledge because "the fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.  God's point of view will stand.  Man is in the middle and it is his to decide who's right.  Though billions take the devil's view it won't stand.  

The whole Bible points to Jesus the Son of God, the Lamb of God.  He was with God before the world was created.  All things were made through Him and for Him.  The gospel was all planned before the world was created.  

The only way to live the new life that God has given us is by "walking in the Light" which is walking by faith in Jesus.  I agree that this wouldn't be possible if the resurrected Jesus didn't actually exist you couldn't do this, but He does and you can.  I understand why this seems illogical without faith in Jesus.   

 

Sorry I didn't get to consider your answer before - it's a long story but I wasn't able to even read your answer for several weeks.  Actually I am short of time this morning in answering it.

I would say that there are no faiths that "hold water", but we're speaking from your point of view: if other faiths/traditions exist and continue to exist, then a religion is not exactly what you think of it. Keep in mind anybody says of his religion what you say of yours, so a buddhist would not be interested in converting to christianity as you would not be interested in converting to buddhism (although the reasons may vary from person to person). People of other religions lives with no more or no less problems than yourself, that's probably the main answer to your question. Numbers don't validate truth because they are statistics - when talking about reality - but surely they can give ideas/representations of things. I don't get what basic elements are loosening, sorry. The "continued cleansing" is not an exclusive of christianism, I'm pretty sure of that, but not pertaining to a religion doesn't exclude this effect on people. In the end it only cognitively matters what you know. So at that point one could clearly see that "fellowship with X" is not needed, because it really was a fake thing just to begin with, and the 'cleansing' too is viewed as a prison, although maybe a gilded one. Things are not as they appear? Sure, just look at quantum mechanics. Are we fooled before we realize it? Yes, but we're making a relatively good job to free ourselves for old traditions and following the path of knowing who we are really. But about the devil and his friend fritz I'll tell you this: can you choose to be hungry? when you are extremely hungry, can you choose not to steal an apple? The questions can be numerous: can you choose not to breathe? Can you choose to stop your heart? Can you choose to not blink your eyes? Can you choose the exact way to act when in pain? Or confused? I think you use the word "choose" in a twisted and superficial way. The bible does not point to Jesus. Ask a hebrew. The bible points to a messiah, sure, but it's a very old and a not sufficiently precise (for the knowledge reached today) way to do it. In fact, to accept it you have to believe it first. Well I'm not interested in any "new life offer" that has been given to me, don't care from who. Now please let's understand ourselves, obviously this world is in need of people who take in better consideration the world around them, but it's not Jesus or who for he that we need: with them we would obtain an ancient life Sticking out tongue . The fact is: there's no need for a new life. Faith cannot give you anything that you cannot have without it. Then I repeat: ok, more cooperation, more 'love', more of this sort of thing, but just to make one example: you cannot ask people to just be christians, this would mean changing their roots, so you don't even arrive to the point of judging if it's a good or a bad thing, it's unpracticable, it just won't happen. Time: answer when you want, as long as I'll hang about here and the thread is open I'll see it. Nothing but our agreement is forcing us to discuss here.

 

Luca,

My ISP has been blocked from RSSQ (I can't even load the site) - but this weekend we are visiting out of town.   The web site administrator has enough information to unblock me if he wants to.  Sapient told me he wants me unblocked which I'm confident is true, but there is some sort of a mysterious problem.  It's probably as it should be.   

The object of faith can be the real God or a false God.  I have plenty enough evidence for me that the God of Israel, Jehovah - is God.  My faith doesn't create the real God but I'm confident my faith is in the real God and His Son.   I'm sure there are people sincere in faith in different gods.  Their faith doesn't make their god real either.  They have their choice to discern and make from the light they have.  I am not arguing their sincerity and I am scrutinizing my sincerity of faith and in this process the Object of my faith becomes more and more known and splendored real and brightly incomprehensible.  

All others have their choice on this or in not having it a priority make their choice by neglect or through unbelief in the Real God fall to ignorance of their object of faith being themselves or a wow science apparatus or "they" meaning the thinking of the herd.  There is stated in Scripture a principle that those God "chooses" He "calls" - IOW the doctrine of election, His Choice.  This is hardly the political correctness of our day, but the Scriptures also say that my God (the One I am totally confident is the real God) does what He pleases.  And I am ok with that.  What He has done on the cross has settled the question of God's love of fallen man for all time, so I say that what He chooses is right and will be right.  

Basic elements let loose:  atomic reaction shows how easily what God says through Peter (the earth is being stored up for fire) could quickly be fulfilled.  Scripture says all things were created through Christ and for Christ and in Him all things hold together.  You can see how quickly the elements could be let loose.  

Actually telling a smoker about the dangers of smoking doesn't give him the power to quit - knowledge alone doesn't empower.  Fellowship with the living God does.  It affects everything thought, purposed, and done.  Anxieties are put to rest.  Plans are established by committing work to the LORD.  Success and stability are realized by finding and following the right Way - which is a Living Way in Christ.

As to choosing, fallen man is in the devil's trap and his choices are limited.  He needs to call for God to break the trap.

The Bible does point to Jesus.  He came to His Own and they (Hebrews) rejected Him.  "You study the Scriptures because in them you think to find eternal life and it is they that speak about Me" (paraphrased).  

And your rejection of Christ is your right.  But what you present as "fact is" - proceeds from your faith in the wrong thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


luca
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Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

My ISP has been blocked from RSSQ (I can't even load the site) - but this weekend we are visiting out of town.   The web site administrator has enough information to unblock me if he wants to.  Sapient told me he wants me unblocked which I'm confident is true, but there is some sort of a mysterious problem.  It's probably as it should be.   

The object of faith can be the real God or a false God.  I have plenty enough evidence for me that the God of Israel, Jehovah - is God.  My faith doesn't create the real God but I'm confident my faith is in the real God and His Son.   I'm sure there are people sincere in faith in different gods.  Their faith doesn't make their god real either.  They have their choice to discern and make from the light they have.  I am not arguing their sincerity and I am scrutinizing my sincerity of faith and in this process the Object of my faith becomes more and more known and splendored real and brightly incomprehensible.  

All others have their choice on this or in not having it a priority make their choice by neglect or through unbelief in the Real God fall to ignorance of their object of faith being themselves or a wow science apparatus or "they" meaning the thinking of the herd.  There is stated in Scripture a principle that those God "chooses" He "calls" - IOW the doctrine of election, His Choice.  This is hardly the political correctness of our day, but the Scriptures also say that my God (the One I am totally confident is the real God) does what He pleases.  And I am ok with that.  What He has done on the cross has settled the question of God's love of fallen man for all time, so I say that what He chooses is right and will be right.  

Basic elements let loose:  atomic reaction shows how easily what God says through Peter (the earth is being stored up for fire) could quickly be fulfilled.  Scripture says all things were created through Christ and for Christ and in Him all things hold together.  You can see how quickly the elements could be let loose.  

Actually telling a smoker about the dangers of smoking doesn't give him the power to quit - knowledge alone doesn't empower.  Fellowship with the living God does.  It affects everything thought, purposed, and done.  Anxieties are put to rest.  Plans are established by committing work to the LORD.  Success and stability are realized by finding and following the right Way - which is a Living Way in Christ.

As to choosing, fallen man is in the devil's trap and his choices are limited.  He needs to call for God to break the trap.

The Bible does point to Jesus.  He came to His Own and they (Hebrews) rejected Him.  "You study the Scriptures because in them you think to find eternal life and it is they that speak about Me" (paraphrased).  

And your rejection of Christ is your right.  But what you present as "fact is" - proceeds from your faith in the wrong thing.

Interesting that you say "my faith doesn't create the real God", because I'd say that believing as a premise the exact opposite would happen. Anyway, if faith was a fact this world would be much easier. Faith is not evidence for this God to be the god that has done all the things. Evidence would be the mechanism that he'd used to do it, for example. I want just to evidence what it seems to me a contradiction: how can you say "they have their choice to discern" and "I am not arguing their sincerity"? If that's so then they are not guilty of believing a false god. Last, as I always said there is this problem with the expression "their choice do discern": the choice is not absolute, the ability to discern is dependant on your knowledge and on the feeedback you receive while believing (whatever one could believe).

The "choice" of "not having it a priority" is not a choice: it would be only if we knew that God "is there", but it's not so, and you can only know it analyzing yourself - for youself - and by word for other people. You cannot say how it is in other manner, and I say (like almost everyone on this forum will do) that I have no innate knowledge of this God.
If it was the other way, sure we would know, expecially after thousands of years.

I don't get the bit about the 'atomic reaction' and 'elements could be let loose'.

Why have we return to 'the smoker'? Anyway knowing for him that smoke is dangerous isn't per se a reason to quit smoking -- who said that? Maybe he wants to die. But if he has reason to live he will evaluate it. It could be the beginning for a chain reaction that will make him quit smoking. If it wasn't for this, it wouldn't even happen, do you understand?
"Fellownship with God" could be a factor in helping the smoker quit - after he has a reason for it, for example by knowing that smoking is bad for his health - but "fellownship with God" gives itself very well to metaphors, and in fact when indeed it isn't? (idem for 'plans are established')

"As to choosing, fallen man is in the devil's trap and his choices are limited. He needs to call for God to break the trap."
I would gladly accept a more elaborate answer more consistent with the questions from which it derived.

"And your rejection of Christ is your right. But what you present as "fact is" - proceeds from your faith in the wrong thing."
I don't know what you mean by "faith" here.


zarathustra
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It was still quite easy to duplicate the Troll's output:

Quote:
Interesting that you say "my faith doesn't create the real God", because I'd say that believing as a premise the exact opposite would happen. Anyway, if faith was a fact this world would be much easier. Faith is not evidence for this God to be the god that has done all the things. Evidence would be the mechanism that he'd used to do it, for example. I want just to evidence what it seems to me a contradiction: how can you say "they have their choice to discern" and "I am not arguing their sincerity"? If that's so then they are not guilty of believing a false god. Last, as I always said there is this problem with the expression "their choice do discern": the choice is not absolute, the ability to discern is dependant on your knowledge and on the feeedback you receive while believing (whatever one could believe).

The real god of Is-real creates real faith, while false faith creates the false gods of other people.  The real god has provided me with plenty of real evidence.  Evidence for other gods is only false evidence, because those gods are false.  With my real god I have perfect knowledge and positive feedback. 

Quote:
The "choice" of "not having it a priority" is not a choice: it would be only if we knew that God "is there", but it's not so, and you can only know it analyzing yourself - for youself - and by word for other people. You cannot say how it is in other manner, and I say (like almost everyone on this forum will do) that I have no innate knowledge of this God. If it was the other way, sure we would know, expecially after thousands of years.

god has given us all innate knowledge of god, and it is our choice to accept it or reject it.  If god has not given you the gift of faith, it is because he knew you would refuse it.

Quote:
I don't get the bit about the 'atomic reaction' and 'elements could be let loose'.

god is the nucleus, and in our negativity we have strayed from his positive charge.  If my faith can move mountains, it can easily split atoms.

Quote:
Why have we return to 'the smoker'? Anyway knowing for him that smoke is dangerous isn't per se a reason to quit smoking -- who said that? Maybe he wants to die. But if he has reason to live he will evaluate it. It could be the beginning for a chain reaction that will make him quit smoking. If it wasn't for this, it wouldn't even happen, do you understand? "Fellownship with God" could be a factor in helping the smoker quit - after he has a reason for it, for example by knowing that smoking is bad for his health - but "fellownship with God" gives itself very well to metaphors, and in fact when indeed it isn't? (idem for 'plans are established')

Just as some choose to die smoking, some choose to die without jesus.  Those who seek fellowship with unfiltered tobacco will soon have fellowship with tumors. 

Quote:
"As to choosing, fallen man is in the devil's trap and his choices are limited. He needs to call for God to break the trap." I would gladly accept a more elaborate answer more consistent with the questions from which it derived.

jesus is the most elaborate answer to all questions, from which all consistency is derived.  You can choose to gladly accept god, or fall into the devil's trap.

Quote:
"And your rejection of Christ is your right. But what you present as "fact is" - proceeds from your faith in the wrong thing." I don't know what you mean by "faith" here.

You have blind faith without evidence that god is not real, which is your right.  You only have that right because the real god gave you that right.  But you also have the right to accept jesus, who is all the evidence you need for god.

 

And there was still no progress on processing the question:

 

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 52± µ3 time

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Sigh.

 Sigh.


Sapient
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Fonzie wrote:Luca,My ISP has

Fonzie wrote:

Luca,

My ISP has been blocked from RSSQ (I can't even load the site) - but this weekend we are visiting out of town.   The web site administrator has enough information to unblock me if he wants to.  Sapient told me he wants me unblocked which I'm confident is true, but there is some sort of a mysterious problem.  It's probably as it should be.

 

This is true for the most part.  We don't know why he is blocked and don't want him blocked.  We think it's somehow on his end.  He is not blocked from our site, he is blocked from the server.  My server admin looked into it, we can't seem to figure it out.

 

 

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luca
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eh

zarathustra wrote:
And there was still no progress on processing the question:

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 52± µ3 time

Try asking "did you physically wrote...".

Also, is the part about "severalth" correct?

DarkSam wrote:

 Sigh.

I take it as a critique to myself.

Sapient wrote:
Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

My ISP has been blocked from RSSQ (I can't even load the site) - but this weekend we are visiting out of town.   The web site administrator has enough information to unblock me if he wants to.  Sapient told me he wants me unblocked which I'm confident is true, but there is some sort of a mysterious problem.  It's probably as it should be.

 

This is true for the most part.  We don't know why he is blocked and don't want him blocked.  We think it's somehow on his end.  He is not blocked from our site, he is blocked from the server.  My server admin looked into it, we can't seem to figure it out.

Maybe he shares his ip with someone who made him ban? Some subdomain of the server banned the ip?

Maybe he has a christian firewall? Sticking out tongue


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I'M BACK - FAITH IN JESUS STILL WORKS FOR ME ONLY BETTER!

Sapient wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Luca,

My ISP has been blocked from RSSQ (I can't even load the site) - but this weekend we are visiting out of town.   The web site administrator has enough information to unblock me if he wants to.  Sapient told me he wants me unblocked which I'm confident is true, but there is some sort of a mysterious problem.  It's probably as it should be.

 

This is true for the most part.  We don't know why he is blocked and don't want him blocked.  We think it's somehow on his end.  He is not blocked from our site, he is blocked from the server.  My server admin looked into it, we can't seem to figure it out.

 

 

 

Brian - I'm back as Fonzie, formerly Mephibosheth.  I think I was unfairly kicked off "WHAT FAITH YOU" and "PALACE LIFE" as Mephibosheth - if you can show me otherwise, I'm open to see it but not to fake it.  Kick me off now if you don't want to discuss things with me.  I don't see you guys pull punches and I don't plan to either.  Evidently you are serious about what we are discussing here - so am I.  

Faith in Jesus is still working for me - only better and better.  

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:Brian - I'm

Fonzie wrote:

I'm back as Fonzie, formerly Mephibosheth.  I think I was unfairly kicked off "WHAT FAITH YOU" and "PALACE LIFE" as Mephibosheth - if you can show me otherwise, I'm open to see it but not to fake it.

Finally! I didn't think you would ever answer Zarathustra's question...  Perhaps now, the discussion can become a bit more productive?

 

Fonzie wrote:

Faith in Jesus is still working for me - only better and better.

It's not working too well for me. I've been asking the Christian God to provide testable evidence for His existence for almost a week now; so far, I've got nothing. In fact, I broadened my request to apply to any being that could hear me and respond, but I still haven't gotten anything. I'm beginning to feel like I'm just talking to myself in a loud voice...

 


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Blacklight you're doing it wrong

blacklight915 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

I'm back as Fonzie, formerly Mephibosheth.  I think I was unfairly kicked off "WHAT FAITH YOU" and "PALACE LIFE" as Mephibosheth - if you can show me otherwise, I'm open to see it but not to fake it.

Finally! I didn't think you would ever answer Zarathustra's question...  Perhaps now, the discussion can become a bit more productive?

 

Fonzie wrote:

Faith in Jesus is still working for me - only better and better.

It's not working too well for me. I've been asking the Christian God to provide testable evidence for His existence for almost a week now; so far, I've got nothing. In fact, I broadened my request to apply to any being that could hear me and respond, but I still haven't gotten anything. I'm beginning to feel like I'm just talking to myself in a loud voice...

 

 

If you put your head into a 44 gallon drum and shout your loudest, His is the second last echo just to the right of your malleus...

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Glad to hear you are

Fonzie wrote:

Brian - I'm back as Fonzie, formerly Mephibosheth.  I think I was unfairly kicked off "WHAT FAITH YOU" and "PALACE LIFE" as Mephibosheth - if you can show me otherwise, I'm open to see it but not to fake it.  Kick me off now if you don't want to discuss things with me.  I don't see you guys pull punches and I don't plan to either.  Evidently you are serious about what we are discussing here - so am I.  

Faith in Jesus is still working for me - only better and better.  

 

happy and well, even if you are deluded, Fonzie.

Un-faith in fallibalism is working for me. Everything makes much more sense now that I finally accept I don't understand what it is I'm not equipped to believe in. 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Holy Shit

Holy Shit. Just when I had thought this thread had died and fallen into the archives of RRS history, it surfaces again.

Hmm, there is not a single point on here that has not been discussed, re-discussed, and then re-disscussed again.

If anyone wants to do the whole back and forth thing with Fonzie, or whomever he is calling himself these days, have at it.

It took this long to admit that you originally posted here as someone else ? Wow. I thought honesty was a christian virtue ? You must have prayed for guidance or just got bored and decided to revive this whole thing to get some more attention.

Let the wild rompus start. But I think I'll probably count myself out. Well maybe. Work is slow, hours have been cut and instead of looking for another job, I spend a lot of time playing on the internet when I get sent home early.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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 Hi Fonzie,Glad you finally

 Hi Fonzie,

Glad you finally owned up to your deception. I'm even glad to see your faith is working for you (though I think you put far more work into it than God does).

Now, the problem is this - if you were so deceptive for so long about something is trivial as your internet identity why should I believe you about Jesus?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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harleysportster wrote:Holy

harleysportster wrote:

Holy Shit. Just when I had thought this thread had died and fallen into the archives of RRS history, it surfaces again.

Hmm, there is not a single point on here that has not been discussed, re-discussed, and then re-disscussed again.

If anyone wants to do the whole back and forth thing with Fonzie, or whomever he is calling himself these days, have at it.

It took this long to admit that you originally posted here as someone else ? Wow. I thought honesty was a christian virtue ? You must have prayed for guidance or just got bored and decided to revive this whole thing to get some more attention.

Let the wild rompus start. But I think I'll probably count myself out. Well maybe. Work is slow, hours have been cut and instead of looking for another job, I spend a lot of time playing on the internet when I get sent home early.

 

Is this one of the many theists you claim to treat with civility and respect?


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TWD39 wrote:harleysportster

TWD39 wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Holy Shit. Just when I had thought this thread had died and fallen into the archives of RRS history, it surfaces again.

Hmm, there is not a single point on here that has not been discussed, re-discussed, and then re-disscussed again.

If anyone wants to do the whole back and forth thing with Fonzie, or whomever he is calling himself these days, have at it.

It took this long to admit that you originally posted here as someone else ? Wow. I thought honesty was a christian virtue ? You must have prayed for guidance or just got bored and decided to revive this whole thing to get some more attention.

Let the wild rompus start. But I think I'll probably count myself out. Well maybe. Work is slow, hours have been cut and instead of looking for another job, I spend a lot of time playing on the internet when I get sent home early.

 

Is this one of the many theists you claim to treat with civility and respect?

No, he's at least owned up to his deception so I don't have to treat him like you. You have to earn civility and respect here. You at least get the chance to do it here. It's up to you as to what you do with it.

I doubt if I'd get to that chance at a theist board. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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TWD39 wrote:harleysportster

TWD39 wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Holy Shit. Just when I had thought this thread had died and fallen into the archives of RRS history, it surfaces again.

Hmm, there is not a single point on here that has not been discussed, re-discussed, and then re-disscussed again.

If anyone wants to do the whole back and forth thing with Fonzie, or whomever he is calling himself these days, have at it.

It took this long to admit that you originally posted here as someone else ? Wow. I thought honesty was a christian virtue ? You must have prayed for guidance or just got bored and decided to revive this whole thing to get some more attention.

Let the wild rompus start. But I think I'll probably count myself out. Well maybe. Work is slow, hours have been cut and instead of looking for another job, I spend a lot of time playing on the internet when I get sent home early.

 

Is this one of the many theists you claim to treat with civility and respect?

If you have the time and patience, please go back through all few thousand posts and see how Fonzie and I originally started out with one another. Pretty respectful discussion. BUT, I doubt that you'll do that.

You judge me for sarcasm and you engage in it at every chance that you get. You go and make a judgement and you haven't a fucking clue how long this thread has been going back and forth and how many meaningful discussions on it quickly degenerated.

So fuck you.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster wrote:TWD39

harleysportster wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Holy Shit. Just when I had thought this thread had died and fallen into the archives of RRS history, it surfaces again.

Hmm, there is not a single point on here that has not been discussed, re-discussed, and then re-disscussed again.

If anyone wants to do the whole back and forth thing with Fonzie, or whomever he is calling himself these days, have at it.

It took this long to admit that you originally posted here as someone else ? Wow. I thought honesty was a christian virtue ? You must have prayed for guidance or just got bored and decided to revive this whole thing to get some more attention.

Let the wild rompus start. But I think I'll probably count myself out. Well maybe. Work is slow, hours have been cut and instead of looking for another job, I spend a lot of time playing on the internet when I get sent home early.

 

Is this one of the many theists you claim to treat with civility and respect?

If you have the time and patience, please go back through all few thousand posts and see how Fonzie and I originally started out with one another. Pretty respectful discussion. BUT, I doubt that you'll do that.

You judge me for sarcasm and you engage in it at every chance that you get. You go and make a judgement and you haven't a fucking clue how long this thread has been going back and forth and how many meaningful discussions on it quickly degenerated.

So fuck you.

In this respect alone, TWD is a good Christian.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


harleysportster
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jcgadfly wrote:In this

jcgadfly wrote:

In this respect alone, TWD is a good Christian.

Come to think of it. TWD said he was not going to respond to me anymore and that I could go "vomit my sarcasm elsewhere."

Hmm, I guess christians are as good at breaking their promises as they are lying.

Now, before any good christian wishes to jump my ass about sweeping generalizations, I would have to say that TWD has repeatedly made gigantic assertions about "ALL" Atheists too many numerous times to count.

Hell, I'd rather deal with Fonzie and his delusions than I had TWD.

Although Fonzie just repeats himself and promises eternal hell for me and such, at least he doesn't whine about persecution and then go on the attack like TWD.

Of course, Fonzie is not going to engage in any other discussions other than this thread (which could be considered a good thing when you think about it) and wants attention.

But he is not a bullying passive  aggressive like TWD.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Fonzie and Caposkia: Two

Fonzie and Caposkia: Two theists who've actually outlasted a good number of atheists on this forum, yet have remained sequestered within their own ginormous threads the whole time. I find it intriguing that the only theists with such staying power share the desire to localise all discussion into a multi-thousand post topic.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


harleysportster
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Vastet wrote:Fonzie and

Vastet wrote:
Fonzie and Caposkia: Two theists who've actually outlasted a good number of atheists on this forum, yet have remained sequestered within their own ginormous threads the whole time. I find it intriguing that the only theists with such staying power share the desire to localise all discussion into a multi-thousand post topic.

I hadn't thought about that until you brought that up.

I think Gramps fit into that category as well. However, he did branch out from time to time.

I wonder what ever happened to Gramps. I kind of enjoyed the banter with him and John Paul. Although the biblical discussions finally got to be a bit tedious.

Caposkia, I never caught up with, his thread just had too many posts.

I don't know how I got caught up into a back and forth on this thread almost two whole years ago.

It just sort of happened.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Fonzie wrote:Brian - I'm

Fonzie wrote:


Brian - I'm back as Fonzie, formerly Mephibosheth. 

 

.............4 years. 4 fucking years. Unbefuckinglievable.

 

Oh well....closure, I guess. 

 


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I'm sure they mean well . .

  Nu# 3197 & Nu# 3198  Actually guys this is very typical behaviour, though  interesting none-the-less. Is it myopic self-absorbed behaviour or too much pressure to venture out or circling the wagons, who knows ? Or it might be some deeper (hard to gauge) strategy ? Who knows Or does it make sense to devote their full energies on a single thread ? Who knows