It works for me!

Fonzie
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It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


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The Old Troll chirrupped with glee as a new batch of feeders entered its dungeon.

Turning to the first, It coaxed, "The bible is Truth incarnate, so the only truthful thing to do is to quote from it. One only truly lives in the bosom of jesus. Those who think they can live without jesus are the ones who live on false hopes and dreams."

Between slurps of Lithium, It now adressed the other: "It is incredibly arrogant to think you can live without jesus, devoid of the grace and love overflowing from his kidneys. I know for a fact there is no happier emotional state than in jesus. I have no need to presume anything when I have been baptized in the living Truth. As long as jesus protects me with his tin foil sword, I have nothing to fear from the afterlife. After feeling the glowing warmth of my lips pressed against jesus' ass, why would I choose the cold, dark existence that you offer?"

The OId Troll then reclined on Its gurney, Its abdomen distending with the fresh scraps. The new arrivals would keep it well-fed for many days, even weeks, before It must again face the question

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 44± µ3 time


 

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zarathustra wrote:Quote:Did

zarathustra wrote:


Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 44± µ3 time

Oh wait.  I remember that guy.  I don't even need to look at the link you posted.  He was that old fart that went on and on and on and on until he was finally shut down because he wasn't worth conversing with.

This is the same guy?  Well jeeze.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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LOUIS WHO

Louis_Cypher wrote:

Quote:
You cannot be as happy as you could be in communion with God and Jesus.  I don't think you would be lying from your perspective, but from the Bible perspective you couldn't possibly have the abundant life that Is in Jesus (John 10.10)

I find this to be an incredibly arrogant statement, devoid of anything resembling humility and overflowing with self righteousness.

How DARE you to presume to know the emotional state of another human being, how DARE you to presume that you and your ilk are the only ones who can be truly happy.

Living in superstitious dread, fearing an afterlife in which you know that only desperate ass kissing can prevent you from what is in your twisted world view to be a 'just' punishment in eternal torment is not on my list of 'happy thoughts'.

Your beliefs are a perversion of the human spirit, denigrating, and despicable in its implications. That one can be absolved from wrong doing, that ones 'sins' can be transfer ed like spare change onto a third party and that this transfer could only be effected by a barbaric act of blood sacrifice is beyond disgusting.

 

LC >;-}>

 

 

Louis,

 

Ecclesiastes 2 (end), "for apart from Him who can eat or who can have enjoyment?"- whatever happiness you now have comes from God - if true, which it is, how much happier you would be if you realized that.

There is also a barrier Jesus mentioned that is more a problem for some than others:  "Truly I say to you, unless you turn and become like children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.  Whoever humbles himself like this child he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18.3-4)

As far as being forgiven and washed from sin by the Blood of the Lamb, "...without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." (Hebrews 9.22)  This is the way God has ordered the universe.  I accept it - you don't.  Who's arrogant?  Weren't there things your parents tried to tell you when you were a kid you didn't understand until later that would have been better accepted then?  

This was the case way before that.  

 

 

 

 

 

 


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PICK YOURS - NO THREAT INTENDED BY ME

Watcher wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
You cannot be as happy as you could be in communion with God and Jesus.  I don't think you would be lying from your perspective, but from the Bible perspective you couldn't possibly have the abundant life that Is in Jesus.

You cannot be as happy as you could be in communion with Allah and fortold by Mohammed.  I don't think you would be lying from your perspective, but from the Quran perspective you couldn't possibly have the abundant life that Is in Allah.

You got some competing fairy tales.

First step, prove all of them false and yours correct without doing something idiotic like quoting the Bible.

Cause the Quran talks a lot of smack about you Christians.  Muslims can match you verse for verse and do it a lot better.

If you can not prove yours correct and theirs incorrect with some valid methodology you are just living on hopes and dreams.

 

 

Watcher,

 

You are free to pick your wife, pick your beer, pick your nose and pick your God and be consecrated and dedicated or lax about it all as the case may be.  I have found my God and eternity has more sparkle every day - and it's not at the point of a gun or threat of a bomb either.  I echo what Paul said, "Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my LORD."  I'm not speaking of this as a professor who has not experienced it.  The love of God in Christ is a powerful force.  

As far as proof, I can offer my God - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Son Jesus my LORD to you - but I can't prove Him.  He is proving Himself to me 24/7 - thought by thought my faith is being exercised and tested.  (Proverbs 17.3),  "The crucible is for silver, the furnace for gold and the LORD tries hearts."  

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:Watcher,You are

Fonzie wrote:

Watcher,

You are free to pick your wife, pick your beer, pick your nose and pick your God and be consecrated and dedicated or lax about it all as the case may be.  I have found my God and eternity has more sparkle every day - and it's not at the point of a gun or threat of a bomb either.  I echo what Paul said, "Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my LORD."  I'm not speaking of this as a professor who has not experienced it.  The love of God in Christ is a powerful force.  

As far as proof, I can offer my God - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Son Jesus my LORD to you - but I can't prove Him.  He is proving Himself to me 24/7 - thought by thought my faith is being exercised and tested.  (Proverbs 17.3),  "The crucible is for silver, the furnace for gold and the LORD tries hearts." 

Meph,

You are free to spout your nonsensical, weak minded, childlike, unquestioning faith in your mythology on this forum all you would like, my dear friend.

I just won't be a part of it.

Toodles,

Watcher

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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why the god-need

Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

 

I'm not pasting from a word processor - I don't know what the spacing issue is.

I identify with Solomon's perspective and discovery.  I believe the Holy Spirit speaking through Solomon saying 3.11 God has put eternity into man's mind and the hunger to find out what that's about just like hunger for knowledge and solutions to problems.  Solomon conducted a high level experiment fully federally funded and guided with divine gift of wisdom 1 Kings 3 to find out once for all what was worthwhile for man to pursue in life.  I say high level - 1000 wives/concubines, a huge building program - cedar covered with gold.  In my small way I follow his conclusions.  Without communion with God - life is nothing. Fortunately I have found communion with God and escaped vanity and emptiness - through the door which is Jesus Christ.

If there was enough interest on your part to persevere in reading/understanding the Bible the crucifixion could make sense - it was planned before the creation of the world, foretold by numerous types, a mystery which angels longed to look into now revealed.  The Scriptures are "living and active, sharper than a two edged sword, dividing bone and marrow".  The Scriptures produce faith and explain themselves.  

The Bible says eternal life is knowing Jesus (John 17.3).  If you find the joy of 24/7 communion with Jesus you will understand there is something you could never tire of eternally.  I can only report this over the barricade to you - as said I cannot prove this but I report it as true and I'm not alone but I don't think being alone in this would make a difference.  

The first Pentecost (50 days after the first Passover lambs were slain to deliver Israel) God shook the mountain and wrote His law on stone tablets.  The last Pentecost  (50 days after the Lamb of God was slain for all the sins of all men for all time for those who believe) The Holy Spirit was poured out and God wrote His law on the hearts of men.  Jesus' willing sacrifice for sin allowed those of us who accept His gift of Righteousness to draw near to God because the enmity between us and God is removed.  The divine principle is, "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin".  Since we have all sinned we have all incurred debt.  We can try to pay that debt ourselves and summarily fail now rightly seen or find out later.  

You cannot be as happy as you could be in communion with God and Jesus.  I don't think you would be lying from your perspective, but from the Bible perspective you couldn't possibly have the abundant life that Is in Jesus (John 10.10)

As far as pride - it is a failing and falling position.  Humility is a learning position.  You can see how easy it is for the proud to be led astray by their false impression of themselves and their perspective.  This would easily keep a person from looking into the gospel so this would be promoted by an enemy of the gospel.  Yet there is a power in the gospel itself that is greater than the enemy - if there is a spark of faith to ignite the soul to seek Jesus.  Try it and see what gets in the way.

The gospel is simple - God sent His Son to die for our sin and He came, lived a perfect life, died willingly for our sin with no debt Himself (no sin Himself) but He died taking our burden of sin on Himself, was even separated from His Father (My God, My God why hast Thou Forsaken Me) - and the bite of death that death took of Him was the Death of Death for all who are born again into Him - we share His Name, His brotherhood, His fellowship with God, and His inheritance.  He intends to marry us at the marriage supper of the Lamb.  For three days later He arose from the dead and He lives in those of us who believe.  It could seem simple like a swan dive - but actually hard to do.  It could seem simple like sailing principles - yet take years to become a sailor.  The gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing (1 Corinthians 1.18).  

There are things people give time and respect and dedication to as gods though they are not really God.  For instance; a man could spend all his time and health getting money as if it can deliver him.  His affections are focused on it - but when the eyes light on it it is gone, flying like an eagle into heaven  (Proverbs 23.1-5)  The man has a thirst for security and comfort but focuses on a false god - possibly with great or little dedication.  

The devil and his demons lie according to the Scripture (John 8.44).  You need a guide to navigate - the Scriptures, plus you need to have the Spirit of God within you.  The Scriptures are "living and active...sharper than any two-edged sword" (you can google).  As far as John 8.32, yes you can know the truth and the truth can make you free as it says before if you believe in Jesus and are His disciple.  

Faith is developed like gold is refined (revisited).  There came a time when I thought I was missing something.  I started reading the Scriptures and at a certain point it all clicked and fell into place that the Bible is true, God is true, Jesus is true, etc.  I was baptized as the Bible teaches by examples in water, immersed, then this new position (the Bible is true, etc) was tested with wave after wave of trial, other's disagreeing, long suffering of bp with no solution.  Through my holding on faith became stronger.  

The pdocs should have had the physical answer to stabilizing the affective disorder without trying to finger my faith in God and Jesus and the Scriptures.  Instead I had to go on and read a book and figure this out myself.  However, now I accept that as a door that God shut and opened for my own good at the right time.  I think bipolar is somewhat normal because I am told everybody has ups and downs.  The bipolar in my perspective just "speeds up the life experiment, bad or good" as I stated.

As to "lied for eternity, why?", well, you won't have to ask yourself will you.  You heard it right here in of all places the atheist forum.l

Have I exaggerated?  Yes, I have illustrated absurdity by being absurd.  As far as I know I haven't exaggerated with the wrong purpose.  I challenge you to show me anything I have said that isn't consistent with what I believe - if you are able to I aim to admit and change it.  

People are not satisfied with my answers for multiple reasons true.  For one, it's not the answer they want.  Another, there is a desire to become a "big atheist" here and impress other atheists.  Another reason is mocking what is not understood.  There are several others I'm sure, but basically there is enmity between the seed of Eve and the seed of the serpent (Genesis 3.15) so it goes way back like war in the middle east.  I'm not expecting it to be solved.  There is no way to make some things clear to some people.  If even Jesus (God in the flesh) wasn't able to make some people understand and accept His teachings - you see the obvious conclusion.  

Why is faith precious?  By faith I am rescued from not only spiritual death (I have experienced a spiritual awakening to life) and rescued from fear of death.  By faith I am able to understand what I need to understand about God (what He's revealed) and to "know God" (not know all about God, but "know God" in the sense that a child knows his dad).  By the grip of faith I have a grip on the life that is life indeed.  Through faith I have fellowship with God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.  With faith I have a means (a shield) to fight the devil defensively and full confidence in the Sword - the Word of God - to fight the devil thought by thought and situation by situation offensively.  Through faith I am never alone - and it's not like having a mechanic there when you have car trouble, it's having God and Jesus there Who created the world.   I have security in faith and a means of getting more faith.  

I love discipline (Proverbs 12.1) because I see the value of it - like the runner could see the meaning of the pain.  

If I was lost in the wilderness my faith would work for me.  Either God would guide me to what I needed or I could die confident.  What works in life also will work in death.  My brothers and sisters have sun in the flames.  

I search the Bible all the time - probably about 2 1/2 hours per day average.  The confidence of faith is like confidence in a person in a way.  If I had confidence in you I would not easily believe something against that confidence.

Job says at the end, "I heard of You (God)...now I see you and I despise myself" - awe of God.  He has revealed some things but not other things.  God did rebuke the three friends at the end who judged surface things.  Job held onto confidence in God though everything around him testified opposite.  His inner fortress held.

(spacing: ok... "solomon 3.11": isn't that about the "daughters of zion"?!)

A little warning: maybe this is not the longest post or maybe it is, oops, but it needs a bit of attention.
Solomon's "perspective and discovery"... He simply was a son of the tradition in which he grew. Another perspective, in that times, was the one of the Greeks. Why not stick to that? And how can you be sure of his conclusions, expecially considering that today we have more knowledge but above all more awareness and strict guide lines (more certainty and understanding) in conducting experiments...
I mean, "high level" would be "cedar covered with gold"? Would not instead be it a repeatable and extremely well described experiment so that you could be sure of the conclusions? Is there something I don't get?

I did read a catholic and part of a JW bible. The crucifixion is absurd simply because I don't see the need for it, and it starts obviously in the very beginning of the bible: genesis. I'm not saying that the bible does not agree with reality (except for the supernatural parts) - and for 'reality' I mean 'our behavior' - but what I'm saying is that we changed since then (not completely, ok, still we are not the same), mainly because we dwelved into the mind and into societies' behaviors to see why men acts in the way they do. So where's the need for religions? They are needed no more, that's what I see.
If it pleases you to write those condition for the crucifixion, go on, don't keep yourself.

I know John 17:3. But in the eternity what would remain of you? What sense would it make? (the "never tire of it eternally")

So if "the Law" is written in our hearts... Well it's indoubtely a metaphor, as the heart is not a thinking device, so do you see where we differ? I do not like metaphors, I like it as real as it gets. What I simply say is that ok, maybe we don't know where they are, *but* they must be somewhere, and we know we think with our brain. So my question is this: are these laws somewhere? Could they be reached, decrypted? I'm not saying we actually can do that, just that they are in a somewhat physical fashion encoded in us. If not, then it starts to be a little too metaphysic for me to believe it.
And then, what was this "enmity between us and God"? I thought God had even his chosed people, the hebrews... (the context was old testament, I think)
So another thing is that I'm not entirely sure that the (or a generic) choice "do it yourself and fail or do it with the help of Jesus and succeed" is properly a 'choice'... The outcome is decided a priori.
Last is that "shedding blood" seems like "a bad thing plus a bad thing make a good one". But apart from that, wouldn't just some correct teachings prevent all this? Render the blood shedding useless? Maybe this would be a judgement on God's work, and so on God, but I'm not interested (for now) on that... Still it probably is inevitable if you think God created everything and all that. But I'm asking you to just think to it (prevention) as neutrally as you can. We know that we react to the environment, we know that a good education prevents crime and all that stuff. There weren't, so war and violence erupted. To me it seems pretty simple -- so simple even we can do (prevent) it. And sometimes we did.

Ok, "you cannot be as happy as you could be in communion with God and Jesus". So do you think there's a way, even a weak one, with which we could "measure" happiness? Or are we talking about fried air?

I am not sure about what pride you are talking about. "Humility is a learning position", yes, and that's also a prerequisite for science, "pour parler". We understand that humans have a bias, and for that reason (and some others) things like 'double blind', 'triple blind', eccetera were born. At first the investigations were about external things, but then with same method we learned how to investigate ourselves. Like a formula as force=mass*acceleration does not contain anything that suggests human or divine bias, so the amygdala, for example, controls things like fear - and again nothing trascendental.
This leads me to another thing: imagine a man that lives his life "proving" things: make an experiment, obtain a result, repeat. How do you think his godless life could be brought closer to one like yours?
What I mean is this: the man would be godless because he has the "habit" of living considering "only physical things", things that he could measure, describe, interact, show to others (eventually through some devices). So, what "flaw" (if you will) is there in this poor individual that you could appeal to to show he is supposedly going the "wrong way"?
Last, about "try it and see what gets in the way", who says I have not tried? Eye-wink

The gospel is simple if you take it lightly -- or better, the word "lightly" is not a good one, let's say... Superficially? Or, maybe, "not in a complete way"?. I don't. The words "God sent His Son..." are not simple, they have a meaning, everyone of them. What does 'perfect' in "lived a perfect life" means? It really, really, really, is worded wrong, too loose. In fact it's a *logical* mistake so big that it couldn't made right. Unless you by perfect don't mean perfect but not in an absolute way. Being that for every word there is a problem like that, I cannot even begin to argue against that. It's simply too much over the limit. It wouldn't probably even make sense for me to confute that, as all the actors, the entities, need an explanation first. Reinterpreting it's like if you said "(void) sent (void) to (void) for our (void) and (void), lived a (void), (void)..." and so on.
And as it's not enough, there seems to be, as with all religions, too interpretation to get to it. You want to make it function? And you will. But for it to have some beef it takes altogether all another type of work, another method.
For now I could briefly say: there was not need for a messiah, there was no need for a sin in first place, there was no need of death for anyone.

Just the time/respect/dedication are not a correct measure for determine what a man consider a (his) god. I mean, I am pretty sure that for most people it is a correct judgement, I'm not denying it, but there's much more. I don't know how to correctly convey it in english, but I'd say it's the attitude that counts. Substantially, "what you think of it". Money cannot "have created everything", so they could not be compared to a god like in the classic monotheisms. I don't know if it was obvious, but I felt the need to be specific.
Remaining on moneys, I think I need to remember to you that the need for it must be developed, it's not written in us. But it's true that it's a sort of evolutionary behavior that could find his object, his fulfillment in money. Nonetheless, by seeing that it's not the major part of the world that consider money an end I think we can conclude it's not deep-rooted in us.
I'm not sure I would call the search "security and comfort" a 'thirst', they are just needed for a regular life...

Okay John 8:44, (although God is a murderer too Eye-wink ), but that was not the question. It was: "if the devil lies always, then all of what he says is not correct for the biblical standards?" (ethically or what have you).
You need a guide to navigate: well, we're discussing that (maybe some marks around the word 'discussing' are needed...).
Again for John 8:32 that was not the point. Is he saying that knowing is always better than not knowing (and so that knowing that God exists is right) or not? Or wait, are you saying that you must be "His disciple" and then you can be showed that God exists for certain? I don't understand.

Yes, you said previously that "at a certain point it all clicked and fell into place".
Well I've been baptized by the right-hand man of the actual Pope in '85 Sticking out tongue.
Is there ever a "trial" that went wrong?

Well I don't know exactly your causes nor I am a "pdoc" myself, so I can't say. I think that probably they shouldn't have told you to lay down the bible... Unless it has actually something to do with your bipolarism.
Everybody has "ups and downs", but with bipolarism I understand it's exceptionally amplified, and probably not entirely causal. To understand if it can be considered normal, I think one could ask himself these question: could humanity survive if everyone had it? Would I feel better without it? or something like that (is this the right outcome of gene expression?).

"As to "lied for eternity, why?", well, you won't have to ask yourself will you. You heard it right here in of all places the atheist forum."
Sorry I don't understand.

I remember I read some of your "exaggeration by absurdity". I don't think people wanted that. I think most of the times they knew what they were asking and did expect a relative answer. But I'm me and not them Eye-wink tho I think I'm right.
You "haven't exaggerated with the wrong purpose". Well, I think for now I'm satisfied with that answer. Well, actually maybe not. If the purpose is "do you have something better to offer?" and all that, I think in fact I'm not satisfied.
I am not sure about "consistent with what I believe" means. If you mean you could have said something you don't believe, well I probably can't know Smiling -- if you mean that what you believe could not be real, well, simply put "God cannot exist" Smiling (not as God, at least).

I more or less agree with the first three reasons you claim for people not liking you answers, although I don't think they represent the majority. The "it goes way back like the war in the middle east" is practically true, I think. But not the "not expecting it to be solved". Maybe we will not see it, but it will be solved. "In one way or the other", I dare to say. About you in this thread, for example, the problem is you say "I don't think I can prove it to you", but a lot of your beliefs touch arguments that have been reached by other ways.
"If even Jesus wasn't able...", then I'd say he wasn't perfect. Sorry. -- "The obvious conclusion" for me is anything than obvious. This is a real good scientific problem. "Why people don't change?" Well I think that the most important thing is that there could be a way, just sometimes one lacks the abilities and so he can't do it. If the argument is right and there's no possibility of success, I'd say that or the person isn't alive or isnt't "functioning as it should".

"Rescued": ok, but I think I asked it before, why should you have fear the death?
What is the "spiritual awakening to life"?
By "by faith I am able to understand God" do you mean the answers come in your mind? Are these answers that are written on the bible?
I'm completely clueless about the "know God like a child knows his dad". It doesn't make a bit of sense, literally.
What is that you call the "grip of faith on life"?
With faith you fight all that but I bet you saw people of other religions do it...

Yeah, discipline is good, but even discipline "is to be disciplined" Smiling Too much or too little, either way is bad. The fact is that the bible "teaches" (the right verb would be 'imposes') a lot more than only discipline... It tells you absolutely about "good" and "evil".

The "wilderness" was just an "experiment" to "estimate" the "weight" of this faith, what use you make of it. The origin is a saying that goes like "help yourself that God will help you". So I was just asking if faith (or at least faith for you) intersecates with other skills, so if for every skill what you can do is more important than faith.

"Faith is like confidence in a person" oh, this is something I like, probably the one I like the most. I'm very interested in how much this comparison is correct in all his facets.
Why "a person"? Do you actually feel that?
Anyway confidence is not the correct tool. Ignoring without much attention that a person has a bias (just in this case), what a person tells you should be considered ignorant and useless unless it shows some facts. What other way is there?

I don't see how the friends of Job are rebuked. I mean, please tell me the exact verses, because I don't see them. Their arguments are not addressed. I just see God saying "I'm powerful, you're pitiful, do what I say". Which by the way it's false because we know what in those segments of text is said we don't know (I mean, we could even make some clouds and some lightnings -- and I don't say it as a pride, I just say as "we understood and we are able to repeat that experiment").
What the bible means is this.


zarathustra
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(Poe)

Even as the Old Troll's liver swelled like foie gras with newly produced bile, It spied another gravy packet from the Last Universal Common Ancestor, dripping into Its IV.  Promptly It began drafting Its next prescription request:
  

He was the son of the tradition of the one true god. Anything else is all greek to me.

All knowledge comes from god, who is the one and true light. No experiment can render the truth false. 

What you don’t get is the gift that jesus offers. I can’t make you get it if you aren’t willing to get it yourself.

The need for the crucifixion was for people like you, who think the ultimate sacrifice of our loving creator was absurd. 

The bible is the ultimate source of reality, since it is the eternal word of the one true lord god, who created reality. Anyone who rejects the bible rejects reality.

My soul would remain, glorifying the lord into eternity.

When Paul said to “circumcise your hearts”, he was not encouraging the disciples to engage in the Aztec ritual of sacrifice. It does not get more real than jesus. Accept him into your heart and you will see.

We are all god’s chosen people, but we the people have chosen to turn away from him. Jesus has lain himself down as a bridge across the enmity that we put between us and god.
God offered us life a priori. It is our choice to accept it or reject it.

Everything that comes from god is good, and we trust in his Word. Had we done no bad things, there would be no need for blood shedding.

The joy that I find in god cannot be measured. An inch of joy in heaven is greater than the longest mile on earth. Those who choose to turn away from god will have plenty of fried air on judgment day.

We are all double-blind without god. Jesus washes the blindness from our eyes with his saliva. It is pride to think you can see without the True Light guiding your way.

Anyone can be brought closer to god. The sheep is always welcome to return to the fold. You only need to look past your false idols of “physical things”, and accept Him.

Yes, jesus was perfect. Those who are confused by his message choose to be imperfect. When you have received the truth and the light, there is nothing to misinterpret.

 

Meanwhile, it refused the bitter pill that could once and for all cure Its insatiable greed:

 

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 45± µ3 time

There are no theists on operating tables.

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Louis_Cypher
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Quote:Ecclesiastes 2 (end),

Quote:
Ecclesiastes 2 (end), "for apart from Him who can eat or who can have enjoyment?"- whatever happiness you now have comes from God - if true, which it is, how much happier you would be if you realized that.

There is also a barrier Jesus mentioned that is more a problem for some than others:  "Truly I say to you, unless you turn and become like children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.  Whoever humbles himself like this child he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18.3-4)

As far as being forgiven and washed from sin by the Blood of the Lamb, "...without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." (Hebrews 9.22)  This is the way God has ordered the universe.  I accept it - you don't.  Who's arrogant?  Weren't there things your parents tried to tell you when you were a kid you didn't understand until later that would have been better accepted then?  

This was the case way before that.

 

Let's be clear. There is no god. So any appeal to its non-existent authority is a guaranteed failure.
Becoming as a child, I understand that you think your god wants you to be effectively retarded, to not question and not think but, in the real world it doesn't work that way.
There is no sin, because there is no god to offend, so your disgusting, barbaric and bloody human sacrifice is just a nasty fairy tale.

And sonny... trust me, you aren't old enough or smart enough to step into the parental role here, and not with me for damned sure.

 

LC >;-}>

 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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ANOTHER GOOD DAY ON THE ROCK - NOT "STARVED ROCK" EITHER

luca wrote:

 

(spacing: ok... "solomon 3.11": isn't that about the "daughters of zion"?!) A little warning: maybe this is not the longest post or maybe it is, oops, but it needs a bit of attention. Solomon's "perspective and discovery"... He simply was a son of the tradition in which he grew. Another perspective, in that times, was the one of the Greeks. Why not stick to that? And how can you be sure of his conclusions, expecially considering that today we have more knowledge but above all more awareness and strict guide lines (more certainty and understanding) in conducting experiments... I mean, "high level" would be "cedar covered with gold"? Would not instead be it a repeatable and extremely well described experiment so that you could be sure of the conclusions? Is there something I don't get? I did read a catholic and part of a JW bible. The crucifixion is absurd simply because I don't see the need for it, and it starts obviously in the very beginning of the bible: genesis. I'm not saying that the bible does not agree with reality (except for the supernatural parts) - and for 'reality' I mean 'our behavior' - but what I'm saying is that we changed since then (not completely, ok, still we are not the same), mainly because we dwelved into the mind and into societies' behaviors to see why men acts in the way they do. So where's the need for religions? They are needed no more, that's what I see. If it pleases you to write those condition for the crucifixion, go on, don't keep yourself. I know John 17:3. But in the eternity what would remain of you? What sense would it make? (the "never tire of it eternally&quotEye-wink So if "the Law" is written in our hearts... Well it's indoubtely a metaphor, as the heart is not a thinking device, so do you see where we differ? I do not like metaphors, I like it as real as it gets. What I simply say is that ok, maybe we don't know where they are, *but* they must be somewhere, and we know we think with our brain. So my question is this: are these laws somewhere? Could they be reached, decrypted? I'm not saying we actually can do that, just that they are in a somewhat physical fashion encoded in us. If not, then it starts to be a little too metaphysic for me to believe it. And then, what was this "enmity between us and God"? I thought God had even his chosed people, the hebrews... (the context was old testament, I think) So another thing is that I'm not entirely sure that the (or a generic) choice "do it yourself and fail or do it with the help of Jesus and succeed" is properly a 'choice'... The outcome is decided a priori. Last is that "shedding blood" seems like "a bad thing plus a bad thing make a good one". But apart from that, wouldn't just some correct teachings prevent all this? Render the blood shedding useless? Maybe this would be a judgement on God's work, and so on God, but I'm not interested (for now) on that... Still it probably is inevitable if you think God created everything and all that. But I'm asking you to just think to it (prevention) as neutrally as you can. We know that we react to the environment, we know that a good education prevents crime and all that stuff. There weren't, so war and violence erupted. To me it seems pretty simple -- so simple even we can do (prevent) it. And sometimes we did. Ok, "you cannot be as happy as you could be in communion with God and Jesus". So do you think there's a way, even a weak one, with which we could "measure" happiness? Or are we talking about fried air? I am not sure about what pride you are talking about. "Humility is a learning position", yes, and that's also a prerequisite for science, "pour parler". We understand that humans have a bias, and for that reason (and some others) things like 'double blind', 'triple blind', eccetera were born. At first the investigations were about external things, but then with same method we learned how to investigate ourselves. Like a formula as force=mass*acceleration does not contain anything that suggests human or divine bias, so the amygdala, for example, controls things like fear - and again nothing trascendental. This leads me to another thing: imagine a man that lives his life "proving" things: make an experiment, obtain a result, repeat. How do you think his godless life could be brought closer to one like yours? What I mean is this: the man would be godless because he has the "habit" of living considering "only physical things", things that he could measure, describe, interact, show to others (eventually through some devices). So, what "flaw" (if you will) is there in this poor individual that you could appeal to to show he is supposedly going the "wrong way"? Last, about "try it and see what gets in the way", who says I have not tried? Eye-wink The gospel is simple if you take it lightly -- or better, the word "lightly" is not a good one, let's say... Superficially? Or, maybe, "not in a complete way"?. I don't. The words "God sent His Son..." are not simple, they have a meaning, everyone of them. What does 'perfect' in "lived a perfect life" means? It really, really, really, is worded wrong, too loose. In fact it's a *logical* mistake so big that it couldn't made right. Unless you by perfect don't mean perfect but not in an absolute way. Being that for every word there is a problem like that, I cannot even begin to argue against that. It's simply too much over the limit. It wouldn't probably even make sense for me to confute that, as all the actors, the entities, need an explanation first. Reinterpreting it's like if you said "(void) sent (void) to (void) for our (void) and (void), lived a (void), (void)..." and so on. And as it's not enough, there seems to be, as with all religions, too interpretation to get to it. You want to make it function? And you will. But for it to have some beef it takes altogether all another type of work, another method. For now I could briefly say: there was not need for a messiah, there was no need for a sin in first place, there was no need of death for anyone. Just the time/respect/dedication are not a correct measure for determine what a man consider a (his) god. I mean, I am pretty sure that for most people it is a correct judgement, I'm not denying it, but there's much more. I don't know how to correctly convey it in english, but I'd say it's the attitude that counts. Substantially, "what you think of it". Money cannot "have created everything", so they could not be compared to a god like in the classic monotheisms. I don't know if it was obvious, but I felt the need to be specific. Remaining on moneys, I think I need to remember to you that the need for it must be developed, it's not written in us. But it's true that it's a sort of evolutionary behavior that could find his object, his fulfillment in money. Nonetheless, by seeing that it's not the major part of the world that consider money an end I think we can conclude it's not deep-rooted in us. I'm not sure I would call the search "security and comfort" a 'thirst', they are just needed for a regular life... Okay John 8:44, (although God is a murderer too Eye-wink ), but that was not the question. It was: "if the devil lies always, then all of what he says is not correct for the biblical standards?" (ethically or what have you). You need a guide to navigate: well, we're discussing that (maybe some marks around the word 'discussing' are needed...). Again for John 8:32 that was not the point. Is he saying that knowing is always better than not knowing (and so that knowing that God exists is right) or not? Or wait, are you saying that you must be "His disciple" and then you can be showed that God exists for certain? I don't understand. Yes, you said previously that "at a certain point it all clicked and fell into place". Well I've been baptized by the right-hand man of the actual Pope in '85 Sticking out tongue. Is there ever a "trial" that went wrong? Well I don't know exactly your causes nor I am a "pdoc" myself, so I can't say. I think that probably they shouldn't have told you to lay down the bible... Unless it has actually something to do with your bipolarism. Everybody has "ups and downs", but with bipolarism I understand it's exceptionally amplified, and probably not entirely causal. To understand if it can be considered normal, I think one could ask himself these question: could humanity survive if everyone had it? Would I feel better without it? or something like that (is this the right outcome of gene expression?). "As to "lied for eternity, why?", well, you won't have to ask yourself will you. You heard it right here in of all places the atheist forum." Sorry I don't understand. I remember I read some of your "exaggeration by absurdity". I don't think people wanted that. I think most of the times they knew what they were asking and did expect a relative answer. But I'm me and not them Eye-wink tho I think I'm right. You "haven't exaggerated with the wrong purpose". Well, I think for now I'm satisfied with that answer. Well, actually maybe not. If the purpose is "do you have something better to offer?" and all that, I think in fact I'm not satisfied. I am not sure about "consistent with what I believe" means. If you mean you could have said something you don't believe, well I probably can't know Smiling -- if you mean that what you believe could not be real, well, simply put "God cannot exist" Smiling (not as God, at least). I more or less agree with the first three reasons you claim for people not liking you answers, although I don't think they represent the majority. The "it goes way back like the war in the middle east" is practically true, I think. But not the "not expecting it to be solved". Maybe we will not see it, but it will be solved. "In one way or the other", I dare to say. About you in this thread, for example, the problem is you say "I don't think I can prove it to you", but a lot of your beliefs touch arguments that have been reached by other ways. "If even Jesus wasn't able...", then I'd say he wasn't perfect. Sorry. -- "The obvious conclusion" for me is anything than obvious. This is a real good scientific problem. "Why people don't change?" Well I think that the most important thing is that there could be a way, just sometimes one lacks the abilities and so he can't do it. If the argument is right and there's no possibility of success, I'd say that or the person isn't alive or isnt't "functioning as it should". "Rescued": ok, but I think I asked it before, why should you have fear the death? What is the "spiritual awakening to life"? By "by faith I am able to understand God" do you mean the answers come in your mind? Are these answers that are written on the bible? I'm completely clueless about the "know God like a child knows his dad". It doesn't make a bit of sense, literally. What is that you call the "grip of faith on life"? With faith you fight all that but I bet you saw people of other religions do it... Yeah, discipline is good, but even discipline "is to be disciplined" Smiling Too much or too little, either way is bad. The fact is that the bible "teaches" (the right verb would be 'imposes') a lot more than only discipline... It tells you absolutely about "good" and "evil". The "wilderness" was just an "experiment" to "estimate" the "weight" of this faith, what use you make of it. The origin is a saying that goes like "help yourself that God will help you". So I was just asking if faith (or at least faith for you) intersecates with other skills, so if for every skill what you can do is more important than faith. "Faith is like confidence in a person" oh, this is something I like, probably the one I like the most. I'm very interested in how much this comparison is correct in all his facets. Why "a person"? Do you actually feel that? Anyway confidence is not the correct tool. Ignoring without much attention that a person has a bias (just in this case), what a person tells you should be considered ignorant and useless unless it shows some facts. What other way is there? I don't see how the friends of Job are rebuked. I mean, please tell me the exact verses, because I don't see them. Their arguments are not addressed. I just see God saying "I'm powerful, you're pitiful, do what I say". Which by the way it's false because we know what in those segments of text is said we don't know (I mean, we could even make some clouds and some lightnings -- and I don't say it as a pride, I just say as "we understood and we are able to repeat that experiment&quotEye-wink. What the bible means is this.

 

 

Luca,

(Ecclesiastes 3.11-), "He has made everything beautiful in its time; also He has put eternity into man's mind, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end...."  (Ecclesiastes 2.24-) "There is nothing b etter for a man than that he should eat and drink, and find enjoyment in his toil.  This also I saw is from the hand of God, for apart from Him who can eat or who can have enjoyment?"

(Job 42.7-) "After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: 'My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of Me what is right as my servant Job has.  Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, an go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of Me what is right as my servant Job has.'"

Solomon's experiment (Ecclesiastes 1.12-) "I the preacher have been king over Israel in Jerusalem.  And I applied my mind to seek and to search out by wisdom all that is done under heaven; it is an unhappy business that God has given to the sons of men to be busy with..."  THE CONCLUSION (Ecclesiastes 12.11-)  "The end of the matter; all has been heard.  Fear God and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.  For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil."  

Imagine that you decided in faith the Bible and the God of the Bible is true - just imagine.  Your questionings are put to rest - the situation then is to understand and rightly divide what is revealed, trusting God's wisdom concerning what is not revealed and not yet understood.  The task is to understand how to submit to God - the kind of pride that would prevent this is thrown out.

There is the parable of seed and types of soil - the seed planted with rock under springs up but doesn't last.  The seed on the path is bird food.  The seed in thorny soil grows up but in the long run is choked by rich cares.  The seed in good ground produces fruit.  

(Proverbs 4.23) "Keep your heart with all vigilance for from it flow the springs of life".  Here's the way I would describe "heart" - it's that small table where life is happening.  There is only so much room on the table for "what's happening now".  When it's full you're knocking things off with added new things.  This fire and life center needs to be guarded every moment.  This is where the water of life can become polluted and the soul corrupted and the man defiled.  This is where I have a constant faithful guest - the Holy Spirit - and a continual feast.  

(Acts 2.36-) "Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made Him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus Whom you crucified."  "Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Brethren, what shall we do?'  And Peter said to them, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'  For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, everyone whom the LORD our God calls to Him."...."Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

Imagine if you had this faith confidence in the Bible and it started really moving first hand in your experience and God became like a friend (Jesus calls His disciples "friends", see next paragraph) you began to see as your best Friend, and the fragile plant of faith began to grow...

As to perspectives such as Louis Cypher's - I read about him in the same Bible - such as Psalm 10.  But the focus is not on pleasing men including myself - but the God of the Bible.  (Luke 12.4-) "I tell you My friends, do not fear those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.  But I will tell you whom to fear:  fear Him Who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you fear Him!"  

It is my burning desire to make God my focus and submitting to His Word in full assurance of faith, guarding my heart with the shield of faith and the Sword of the Spirit every moment.  I am extremely happy and at peace, full of hope and fulfilled - my foundation of life resting on the Rock which is Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.

 

   

 

 

 

 

  

 

 


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THE ULTIMATE POKER HAND

Louis_Cypher wrote:

Quote:
Ecclesiastes 2 (end), "for apart from Him who can eat or who can have enjoyment?"- whatever happiness you now have comes from God - if true, which it is, how much happier you would be if you realized that.

There is also a barrier Jesus mentioned that is more a problem for some than others:  "Truly I say to you, unless you turn and become like children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.  Whoever humbles himself like this child he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18.3-4)

As far as being forgiven and washed from sin by the Blood of the Lamb, "...without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." (Hebrews 9.22)  This is the way God has ordered the universe.  I accept it - you don't.  Who's arrogant?  Weren't there things your parents tried to tell you when you were a kid you didn't understand until later that would have been better accepted then?  

This was the case way before that.

 

Let's be clear. There is no god. So any appeal to its non-existent authority is a guaranteed failure.
Becoming as a child, I understand that you think your god wants you to be effectively retarded, to not question and not think but, in the real world it doesn't work that way.
There is no sin, because there is no god to offend, so your disgusting, barbaric and bloody human sacrifice is just a nasty fairy tale.

And sonny... trust me, you aren't old enough or smart enough to step into the parental role here, and not with me for damned sure.

 

LC >;-}>

 

 

Louis,

You realize you are stating something you cannot prove - you are making a statement of faith because from your viewpoint you think you see "clearly" there is no God and maybe your desire there is no God but you bring no proof for that faith - your faith that the unseen doesn't exist.  Indeed there IS no proof for that -  quite the opposite.  But it is possible to love the lie and hate the truth and boogie on.    

I believe without a doubt God Is and the Bible is the Word of God.  That is what I see through the eyes of faith that is not seen by you, real to you or desired by you.  I have proof for myself and proof that makes sense to others that have faith in God.  The fact that I can't prove God or the Bible to you isn't an ingredient of my faith.  The fact that you don't see a God or a God created universe but instead some perspective you can't prove to me or even attract me to seeing with your winning ways and noble demeanor isn't a new or unique thing.  It was even true that people met Jesus face to face - even saw miracles - but didn't believe He was LORD and SAVIOR.   

As far as there being no sin and the gospel sacrifice being barbaric my position on that is:   that is "calling good evil and evil good".  Your position is there is no sin and no conscience?  I believe the opposite 100%.  

I am glad to be free of any parenting responsibility concerning you; in fact, I never desired it or any part of it in my wildest dreams - and believe me that says a lot.  If something from the Scriptures offended you, just realize I am the paperboy not the publisher.  

We have a bet on here - we are each.. .. .. .   .       .            .                      ~     one heartbeat from finding out who wins.  It obviously won't be both of us on this bet.  I am hoping you win in the end, but you won't with your current hand.  You could fold and get a new hand.   God has the Royal Flush and He's willing to share IT with you.

 

 

 

 

 


luca
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:(

Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

(Ecclesiastes 3.11-), "He has made everything beautiful in its time; also He has put eternity into man's mind, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end...."  (Ecclesiastes 2.24-) "There is nothing b etter for a man than that he should eat and drink, and find enjoyment in his toil.  This also I saw is from the hand of God, for apart from Him who can eat or who can have enjoyment?"

(Job 42.7-) "After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: 'My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of Me what is right as my servant Job has.  Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, an go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of Me what is right as my servant Job has.'"

Solomon's experiment (Ecclesiastes 1.12-) "I the preacher have been king over Israel in Jerusalem.  And I applied my mind to seek and to search out by wisdom all that is done under heaven; it is an unhappy business that God has given to the sons of men to be busy with..."  THE CONCLUSION (Ecclesiastes 12.11-)  "The end of the matter; all has been heard.  Fear God and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.  For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil."  

Imagine that you decided in faith the Bible and the God of the Bible is true - just imagine.  Your questionings are put to rest - the situation then is to understand and rightly divide what is revealed, trusting God's wisdom concerning what is not revealed and not yet understood.  The task is to understand how to submit to God - the kind of pride that would prevent this is thrown out.

There is the parable of seed and types of soil - the seed planted with rock under springs up but doesn't last.  The seed on the path is bird food.  The seed in thorny soil grows up but in the long run is choked by rich cares.  The seed in good ground produces fruit.  

(Proverbs 4.23) "Keep your heart with all vigilance for from it flow the springs of life".  Here's the way I would describe "heart" - it's that small table where life is happening.  There is only so much room on the table for "what's happening now".  When it's full you're knocking things off with added new things.  This fire and life center needs to be guarded every moment.  This is where the water of life can become polluted and the soul corrupted and the man defiled.  This is where I have a constant faithful guest - the Holy Spirit - and a continual feast.  

(Acts 2.36-) "Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made Him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus Whom you crucified."  "Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Brethren, what shall we do?'  And Peter said to them, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'  For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, everyone whom the LORD our God calls to Him."...."Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

Imagine if you had this faith confidence in the Bible and it started really moving first hand in your experience and God became like a friend (Jesus calls His disciples "friends", see next paragraph) you began to see as your best Friend, and the fragile plant of faith began to grow...

As to perspectives such as Louis Cypher's - I read about him in the same Bible - such as Psalm 10.  But the focus is not on pleasing men including myself - but the God of the Bible.  (Luke 12.4-) "I tell you My friends, do not fear those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.  But I will tell you whom to fear:  fear Him Who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you fear Him!"  

It is my burning desire to make God my focus and submitting to His Word in full assurance of faith, guarding my heart with the shield of faith and the Sword of the Spirit every moment.  I am extremely happy and at peace, full of hope and fulfilled - my foundation of life resting on the Rock which is Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.

Ok, I hope you have the intention to answer to the rest of the message, at least the salient points... I will answer tomorrow, as for now my day is at the end.

'Tomorrow' came... I don't get where can you see Ecclesiastes 3:11 verified. Ecclesiastes 2:24 instead is a little different, it depends a lot on the philosophy. It all depends on how seriously you want to discuss.

Job 42:7 - God is saying to the three friends that they "didn't spoke right". I don't know what to say except that it is not an argument. I think that my point (God saying might makes right) is intact -- he did not answer to the friends, and that wasn't even the purpose of that story (because at that time people couldn't).

Solomon did not understood anything. Did he really search wisdom? No he didn't. He tried empty pleasure, vain vanity, and then said "this all is vanity". It's a tautology, for who cares. And I don't even mention the prejudices he started with. Well it's simple: in the last centuries (decades, really) men studied men *for real*. You want understand what moves men? Then science (and of course a bit of history) is the way. But I bet there's a lot more. You said you tried a lot of things in your life, and you felt nothing. Is this why you consider Solomon worthy enough to be listened?

Questionings put to rest? No, I don't think so. Has it been like that for all your life (after that 'certain' point)? Really?
But there's a more imperative problem: if you do it because you want to feel good with yourself, then are you being selfish?

"The seed in good ground produces fruit"? And the seed in void space will be burned by a star.

How much big is this 'now' in the "what's happening now" metaphor (metaphors which I repeat, I don't like much) of the heart?

'Repent, and be baptized...', For the promise is to you and to your children and... well, it seems the promise is void. The generation passed. Maybe a more infinite god than God arrived and killed him, dunno.

The fragile plant of faith grew, then died. The point is that I and many many people live (successfully) without it, so something that probably you don't know is happening.

You don't need to repeat "It is my burning desire to make God my focus and submitting to His Word..." every time, I understood it, it's not so complicated. I think I am happier than you, even by your standards (wisdom), my foundation of life resting on the metal (fullerene, even) which is science, an invention of humanity. How does it make you feel?


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IF ONLY THERE WERE SOMEBODY TO ARBITRATE BETWEEN US JOB 9.33

luca wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

(Ecclesiastes 3.11-), "He has made everything beautiful in its time; also He has put eternity into man's mind, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end...."  (Ecclesiastes 2.24-) "There is nothing b etter for a man than that he should eat and drink, and find enjoyment in his toil.  This also I saw is from the hand of God, for apart from Him who can eat or who can have enjoyment?"

(Job 42.7-) "After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: 'My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of Me what is right as my servant Job has.  Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, an go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of Me what is right as my servant Job has.'"

Solomon's experiment (Ecclesiastes 1.12-) "I the preacher have been king over Israel in Jerusalem.  And I applied my mind to seek and to search out by wisdom all that is done under heaven; it is an unhappy business that God has given to the sons of men to be busy with..."  THE CONCLUSION (Ecclesiastes 12.11-)  "The end of the matter; all has been heard.  Fear God and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.  For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil."  

Imagine that you decided in faith the Bible and the God of the Bible is true - just imagine.  Your questionings are put to rest - the situation then is to understand and rightly divide what is revealed, trusting God's wisdom concerning what is not revealed and not yet understood.  The task is to understand how to submit to God - the kind of pride that would prevent this is thrown out.

There is the parable of seed and types of soil - the seed planted with rock under springs up but doesn't last.  The seed on the path is bird food.  The seed in thorny soil grows up but in the long run is choked by rich cares.  The seed in good ground produces fruit.  

(Proverbs 4.23) "Keep your heart with all vigilance for from it flow the springs of life".  Here's the way I would describe "heart" - it's that small table where life is happening.  There is only so much room on the table for "what's happening now".  When it's full you're knocking things off with added new things.  This fire and life center needs to be guarded every moment.  This is where the water of life can become polluted and the soul corrupted and the man defiled.  This is where I have a constant faithful guest - the Holy Spirit - and a continual feast.  

(Acts 2.36-) "Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made Him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus Whom you crucified."  "Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Brethren, what shall we do?'  And Peter said to them, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'  For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, everyone whom the LORD our God calls to Him."...."Save yourselves from this crooked generation."

Imagine if you had this faith confidence in the Bible and it started really moving first hand in your experience and God became like a friend (Jesus calls His disciples "friends", see next paragraph) you began to see as your best Friend, and the fragile plant of faith began to grow...

As to perspectives such as Louis Cypher's - I read about him in the same Bible - such as Psalm 10.  But the focus is not on pleasing men including myself - but the God of the Bible.  (Luke 12.4-) "I tell you My friends, do not fear those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.  But I will tell you whom to fear:  fear Him Who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you fear Him!"  

It is my burning desire to make God my focus and submitting to His Word in full assurance of faith, guarding my heart with the shield of faith and the Sword of the Spirit every moment.  I am extremely happy and at peace, full of hope and fulfilled - my foundation of life resting on the Rock which is Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.

Ok, I hope you have the intention to answer to the rest of the message, at least the salient points... I will answer tomorrow, as for now my day is at the end.

'Tomorrow' came... I don't get where can you see Ecclesiastes 3:11 verified. Ecclesiastes 2:24 instead is a little different, it depends a lot on the philosophy. It all depends on how seriously you want to discuss. Job 42:7 - God is saying to the three friends that they "didn't spoke right". I don't know what to say except that it is not an argument. I think that my point (God saying might makes right) is intact -- he did not answer to the friends, and that wasn't even the purpose of that story (because at that time people couldn't). Solomon did not understood anything. Did he really search wisdom? No he didn't. He tried empty pleasure, vain vanity, and then said "this all is vanity". It's a tautology, for who cares. And I don't even mention the prejudices he started with. Well it's simple: in the last centuries (decades, really) men studied men *for real*. You want understand what moves men? Then science (and of course a bit of history) is the way. But I bet there's a lot more. You said you tried a lot of things in your life, and you felt nothing. Is this why you consider Solomon worthy enough to be listened? Questionings put to rest? No, I don't think so. Has it been like that for all your life (after that 'certain' point)? Really? But there's a more imperative problem: if you do it because you want to feel good with yourself, then are you being selfish? "The seed in good ground produces fruit"? And the seed in void space will be burned by a star. How much big is this 'now' in the "what's happening now" metaphor (metaphors which I repeat, I don't like much) of the heart? 'Repent, and be baptized...', For the promise is to you and to your children and... well, it seems the promise is void. The generation passed. Maybe a more infinite god than God arrived and killed him, dunno. The fragile plant of faith grew, then died. The point is that I and many many people live (successfully) without it, so something that probably you don't know is happening. You don't need to repeat "It is my burning desire to make God my focus and submitting to His Word..." every time, I understood it, it's not so complicated. I think I am happier than you, even by your standards (wisdom), my foundation of life resting on the metal (fullerene, even) which is science, an invention of humanity. How does it make you feel?

 

 

 

Luca,

 

One of my answers is a general one - that with faith in God (like confidence in a man) most all of these questions wouldn't exist in their current form at least.  It wouldn't be a question of faith then - which I think most of yours are - it would be a question of what the Scripture says, understanding and aligning with it,  I will look over the salient points like you request but I'm not sure what I missed - not intentional.  Please mention them and I'll try. 

First off you were in Song of Solomon rather than Ecclesiastes with that "daughters of Zion thing".  I have confidence in Solomon's conclusions because I have confidence in the God of the Bible - that it was written as stated in 2 Peter 1.21, "No prophecy ever came by the impulse of man but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."  

Why not Greek?  I don't hear my Master's voice there.  Why not Joseph Smith?  Same thing.  The sheep know their Master's voice.  

You can be sure of conclusions of science today?  Why do they reverse things?  I'm sure some people put their faith in science - I'm not saying science is bad in itself, study of the world and laws, etc.  It's just not God.  

Solomon conducted an experiment that I said was "high level".  First, God gave him a miraculous gift of wisdom (1 Kings 3.5-12).  Second, God gave his kingdom peace so he wasn't bothered with enemies.  Also he had plenty of money.  So, money, time, wisdom, slaves to build, 1000 wives & concubines - a high level experiment to find out what's what and what man should consider important to do in life.  I think it is repeated in a small way by almost everybody.  

Quite the opposite, rightly understood I don't think man has basically changed.  The Bible describes man to a tee.  

Where's the need for "religions"?  Well, Jesus didn't promote "religion".  It was the "religion" leaders of the day that were His fiercest opponents - the Pharisees and Sadducees.  Here's the difference:  The "Righteousness of God" in Christ is a gift to be received through faith.  We can't produce it by "religion" so God gives us the gift of justification through the death of Jesus.  

The "crucifixion is absurd"?  It wasn't my idea.  At the point of it happening Jesus ask His Father if there was another way but there wasn't.  It shows God is serious about His Laws and also serious about sin.  He wanted to forgive us and He found a way to satisfy both His Justice and His Mercy in the death of His Son.  

You are right it starts at the beginning of the Bible - there are prophesies and glimpses all through the Old Testament.  There are "types" and stories that point to the coming Messiah and gospel.  

This fact that you are not trying to "earn" salvation through "religion" or "works" is a refreshing difference.  When you are trying to earn salvation through works they are polluted at the start due to a selfish interest.  So it's a bad experience.  In the practice of accepting the grace of God through Jesus Christ however you are free from all that bad trip.  You are responding to the love of Christ plus you are already saved - "through grace you have been saved" Ephesians 2.8  

The purpose of metaphors is like parables - to ramp up into thinking about spiritual things.  Faith is outside the physical senses so you compare things in the spiritual realm like "the seed and the sower, the good ground, the thorny ground, etc."

As far as "real as it gets" - the true reality is the unseen reality because it will never be destroyed.  What we see in the physical world is obviously on the downhill slide, rot and rust.  

I think as far as the "laws written on our heart" - God draws near to us, gives the gift of the Holy Spirit, the debt that's between us and God is removed through the blood of Jesus.  Just as the spirit of a man is the thing that knows the thoughts of a man, the Spirit of God is the One Who knows the thoughts of God and enables us to Know God and understand the Word of God.  Written on our heart means God is very close to us I think, dwells in us (John 14.23).  

It was quite a while before I sensed the reality of the Holy Spirit within me as promised in Acts 2.38.  It was I'm sure, but there is a growth from baby to toddler and teen and maturity.  But it being there doesn't depend on knowing it's there.  God promises it and He will do it.  The Holy Spirit does the "decrypting", the bridge between us and God.  

The enmity between us and God is the fact that we have all broken God's Law - sin.  This fact has brought about spiritual death, also being trapped in sin.  Jesus is the first and only One to live without breaking God's Law, so when He died, He didn't actually have to die.  He died instead carrying our debt of sin not His.  He died for us.  But also His death was the death of Death, because when Death took a bite out of Him Death destroyed itself.  He raised from the dead to an indestructible life - this is all in the Scriptures trust me.

Teaching wouldn't prevent all this.  Adam and Eve lived in a perfect environment, no experience of sin, no guilt complex.  They knew what not to do and they did it.  So man fell under perfect conditions.  Fallen man needs a Savior.  

Instead notice the behavior of children - "don't do this" is a big motivation to do exactly that.  So what is needed is not just teaching or reformation - but "re-birth" - a new heart and mind.  All things made new.  

The main appeal is the love of God in Christ - which is the power of the gospel.  It pleases God to save men through the foolishness of the gospel (Bible words not mine) - the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men.  

Money and science, things, wife, self - are all not bad or good in themselves - it's a matter of the heart as I think you say; for instance, to make one of these things God throws everything out of sync.

You were baptized.  I was baptized when a teen to impress a girl.  Later at college I realized something was wrong and started reading the Bible for real and at a certain point it clicked.  

As far as some of my answers "illustrating absurdity" - there is the aspect of answering a fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his own eyes - yet not answering a fool according to his folly lest you be like him yourself.  There is navigation in all this.  I'm ready to be corrected if you can show me where I answered wrong in this realm.

I fear death if aware things aren't right with God.  Since they are right with God and I'm determined to keep them that way I don't fear death.  And I do want to live forever because I want to live forever with God and Jesus and brothers and sisters.

Absolutes is another thing about faith in God and the Bible.  This faith settles the absolutes and there are absolutes.  It's actually comforting to have faith in a God with absolutes that don't change - it's a big ingredient of security. 

Here's one way the Bible describes the spiritual awakening.  "And you who were dead He made alive in Christ... Ephesians 2.1   God can awaken faith in us leading to the "new birth" in Christ.  

The "wilderness" of our wanderings after coming out of the "Egypt of our sin" is another metaphor that expresses the development process of "repenting" and "believing" then sorting it out and going on to maturity in Christ.  Just because several have failed the process doesn't mean Life in Christ isn't there to be had.  We don't want to go through life imitating everybody's failings.  

Why "faith" is like "confidence in a person"?  God has become a man (Jesus) in order to bring us to Himself.  If you have confidence in the man Jesus - believe in Jesus in other words - you will be saved.  

Ok, I've probably missed some of your questions.  There's NO SPACE between your lines on my view.  Just try to restate the ones I missed.   

 

 

 

 


Fonzie
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luca wrote:

 

Ok, I hope you have the intention to answer to the rest of the message, at least the salient points... I will answer tomorrow, as for now my day is at the end.

'Tomorrow' came... I don't get where can you see Ecclesiastes 3:11 verified. Ecclesiastes 2:24 instead is a little different, it depends a lot on the philosophy. It all depends on how seriously you want to discuss. Job 42:7 - God is saying to the three friends that they "didn't spoke right". I don't know what to say except that it is not an argument. I think that my point (God saying might makes right) is intact -- he did not answer to the friends, and that wasn't even the purpose of that story (because at that time people couldn't). Solomon did not understood anything. Did he really search wisdom? No he didn't. He tried empty pleasure, vain vanity, and then said "this all is vanity". It's a tautology, for who cares. And I don't even mention the prejudices he started with. Well it's simple: in the last centuries (decades, really) men studied men *for real*. You want understand what moves men? Then science (and of course a bit of history) is the way. But I bet there's a lot more. You said you tried a lot of things in your life, and you felt nothing. Is this why you consider Solomon worthy enough to be listened? Questionings put to rest? No, I don't think so. Has it been like that for all your life (after that 'certain' point)? Really? But there's a more imperative problem: if you do it because you want to feel good with yourself, then are you being selfish? "The seed in good ground produces fruit"? And the seed in void space will be burned by a star. How much big is this 'now' in the "what's happening now" metaphor (metaphors which I repeat, I don't like much) of the heart? 'Repent, and be baptized...', For the promise is to you and to your children and... well, it seems the promise is void. The generation passed. Maybe a more infinite god than God arrived and killed him, dunno. The fragile plant of faith grew, then died. The point is that I and many many people live (successfully) without it, so something that probably you don't know is happening. You don't need to repeat "It is my burning desire to make God my focus and submitting to His Word..." every time, I understood it, it's not so complicated. I think I am happier than you, even by your standards (wisdom), my foundation of life resting on the metal (fullerene, even) which is science, an invention of humanity. How does it make you feel?

 

 

Luca,

 

A man can be be somewhat fulfilled by Ecclesiastes 2.24 but like Solomon see it is in itself empty - not really fulfilled beyond the honeymoon of it.  So unlike the beast man has the hunger of Ecclesiastes 3.11.  A man could be dimly powered or poorly arranged so as to not find it in the mess but I believe it's under there.  It may be under several layers of unbelief generated questions and doubts.  Such a hunger or void could express itself in many ways not easily recognizable and several forms of "escape" are available while time ticks.  I want to discuss it yes.  I have this hunger for eternity with God and looking back there was a long period when I couldn't find what I was looking for.  Now I have.  

What Job illustrates in my opinion is a continuing theme throughout Scripture - "the righteous lives by his faith".  The things that happened were a challenge to Job's faith that God knows what He's doing with everything falling around him as intimately as his wife and body filled with sores.  Still within Job had a stronghold in his faith, good conscience and integrity.  He still had a real faith in God.  There was a point of contention between Job and his three friends that seems to center on their "legalistic religion" based on works (Job 22.3-11) and assessed by providence versus Job's "righteousness of faith".  That point of contention still exists.  You can see the power of it by Job's endurance. 

God doesn't answer the specific questions I agree but He answers them obliquely.  He mentions things He is on top of that show He can manage His universe in big ways also details.  It's neat how God respects our own ability to think.  Jesus didn't always answer questions directly like your second grade teacher either.  Notice that Job is satisfied by God's answer (Job 42.1).  The question and answer concerns faith - faith in God.  

Solomon's wisdom gallery is "Proverbs", he did search wisdom (1 Kings 4.32 Solomon collected over 3000 proverbs, etc).   I love the book of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes.  Not long after I was "born again" I locked on to Proverbs/Ecclesiastes and have studied and been fascinated by them ever since.  It moves me.  As far as what moves men it depends.  (It is sport for the wicked to do wrong but wise conduct is a pleasure to a man of understanding.  He who loves knowledge loves discipline - a fool hates reproof) - there are a couple of examples of what I mean by different men and different things that move them.  

You label Solomon's intent as "prejudiced" - another way to look at it is that Solomon had made a decision about God.  This is one thing I have been trying to get across to you - the principle of faith brings you to a level ground of peace above the questionings and uncertainties man will always have.  The fact that God doesn't reveal everything doesn't affect our total confidence in Him - just like the Job example He reveals enough.  

My questions have been put to rest yes since I was born anew as far as "Who is God?" and "Is the Bible True" and "Does Jesus' blood save us".  What you might see as continuing question in my life is getting oriented on what the Bible says and means.  For me that isn't questionings, but understanding and knowledge.  There are several false teachings about it to see through.  The devil is trying to help us misunderstand it - like his Bible quoting to Jesus in the wilderness.  

If your statement about the "bad seed is burned by a star" is referring to the judgment, I would answer that obliquely that the crucifixion of Jesus - God's Own Son shows how serious God is about both justice and mercy.  As to whether Hell is real or not - you can decide whether you believe the Scriptures or not on that.  

As far as how big the heart is - the life center, "what's happening now" - it's big enough for one God, One Master and one woman.  There's not enough room for two masters.  The focus on One God is illustrated (in the Bible) by a man's dedication and focus on one woman.  There's a need for a constant guard on this focus on one woman - it's the same with our focus on One God.  Proverbs 4.23 "Keep your heart with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life".  You could compare it to a garden with good plants or weeds.  We don't want to mulch weeds - we need to be about pulling them.  

There's nothing wrong with "repent and be baptized" - that promise is good.  Don't fall for the lie that it isn't still real and powerful.

Satan's lie to Adam and Eve was "you will not die, you will be like God knowing good and evil" - but they did die, spiritually.  They were still walking around - maybe that's what you're referring to as "living successfully".  No, but sin turned the man into a weakling, a coward who hid from God.  When man lost fellowship with his God things went downhill fast.  I know there are people walking around that you would view as living successful that wouldn't be living successful as far as I'm concerned.

I believe you really think you are happy and secure and fulfilled.  I believe if you were converted to Christ you would say with Paul that you count it all as nothing for the sake of knowing Christ.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


luca
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Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

 

One of my answers is...

EDIT

About the title: do you *wish* there was someone to arbitrate?

I know there aren't spaces, try to answer in another window while keeping the original one (which has spaces) in another.

It's not matter of faith or not faith... I couldn't help but think that you got confused with these terms. What has faith to do with observing a thing and it goes one way, then reading about it and it's described as another way? It's a simple discordance. But when there's faith another question follows, by my reasonment: where do faith comes from? And expecially: what would be of faith without a sacred text?
About the posts: while it's true that it may not be necessary to answer every specific point, the most important are, well... important, but they too can "expire". If I'll have time I'll make a recap of what I feel has not been correctly addressed and still need to be.

Now ok you say "I have confidence in Solomon because I've confidence in the God of the Bible", but then again you said you got confident with the bible by verifying personally that what was written is true... So what are you saying now by "I have confidence in the God of the Bible", that you need no more verifications? If not, then you still need to see if what Solomon said was true...
What the word 'prophecy' means in 2 Peter 1:21? If it's only a prediction, then I have to disagree with that verse. Maybe it depends also from the magnitude of the prophecy, I don't know.
Always on Solomon: was he so wise? I can't have a proof that he received wisdom from God, but from what I see even if he was above the average he was lacking a lot of what we have today. That's why, I repeat, I don't see wisdom in his actions. And why I say he started with prejudices. It seems it all started for failing, so it's not an experiment, it's a story with a moral in the end. Solomon did not consider every opportunity, and above all what he did consider was vanity. But I agree that part of it is experienced by everyone in his life.
I'm sorry if the argument is getting long, but about Ecclesiastes 3:11 there is much other to say. What does it mean "beautiful"? *We* are the one saying it's beautiful, *we* are being the judges. And then you really should say what is really being beautiful... If you are referring to the genital organs of plants, commonly called "flowers", it may be (although probably not the ones that smell of rotten meat or feces), but is beautiful a plant that eats flies? Are beautiful the viruses that kills you? And the insects and parasites that eats you eyes or some other organ? I'm sorry to be so graphic but really, we need to estabilish a common ground, here.
Then, always about Ecclesiastes 3:11, it speaks of "eternity in our hearts". But if I say "no, I don't want it", then do you accept it or do you search a reason to justify it, to claim it's wrong? I mean, you say "it's there, maybe buried under something, but it's there", but I tell I cannot find a single reason for eternal life. Sure, for life long as I desire, yes, but *eternal* is a really big, huge thing, really too much.

Man has not changed a lot biologically, but the culture did. While it's true that our impulses are the same because the brain is the same, we don't exist in a vacuum. Our thinking is changed by environment (and by the way this is one of the reasons because free will is impossible) and by knowledge (if not, "what" would we think?). And I think the last one is part of men.
I would likely say a no (and obviously turn to neurology, neuropsychology, or whatever) to "The Bible describes man to a tee", but before that could you at least explain dunno, how much deep it goes in the explanation? How much do you *need* to go deep in explaining man? I mean, elaborate a little...

I knew that you don't "hear your Master's voice" in the Greek tradition, but see where it leads to: do you think they (the greeks, or anyone else) did? They seemed all pretty convinced. And what's the order in this acknowledging the voice? Do you "hear the voice" first and then sift through the religions and suddenly "that's the right one!" or do you have to be "trained" first? I say this because... I mean, I remember you said "knowing God is inborn", but it's still too vague. And it doesn't finish there, there's a discrepancy between too many things, one is for example that it would not be possible that so many religions would have developed, or that people in the past had so little scientific knowledge.

I am not sure I get what you are saying about science. "Conclusions" are understood to be temporary, who is "reversing things"?
And also "put their faith in science": science doesn't need "faith", but maybe you are meaning something bigger? Like "purpose of life"?
Last: "science is not bad" well I'd give it a bit more value than that... Would you have a bible in your hands without printing machines? Without communication devices? Without transport? I mean, I hope you give them a consideration...

Okay, Jesus didn't promote religions (but so what about Peter? And Saul/Paul?), but we are "social animals", and there's no way that people follow a faith without forming a group. In fact religion is a social thing, would be faith the same without religion? Think to the many factors: translations, traditions (which obviously is a big part of faith and religions), clashings, and so on.
I am not sure what you meant with "Righteousness of God", maybe morality? But I don't see why faith could not be produced by religion, sorry. It may even be considered an autosustaining circle. And I think the facts are with me.

Crucifixion was not your idea, but someone evidently thought of it, if it's there -- I don't think I have to say I don't ascribe this idea to God, do I? But there was really a way? Yeah, avoid the sin in first place.

"prophesies and glimpses all through the Old Testament" well I think you know we have a hebrew friend here, furrycatherder, probably you should listen to what she has to say.

The problem with metaphors is that you are not speaking of things by themselves, and this lead to confusion. To prepare a metaphor you need a context and all that, but in the end it's fake. I want to talk about a chair? Then I say "chair". I want to talk about electrons? Then I say electrons. Metaphors are present when one doesn't know things. In fact think of all the advantages we gained when we started describing things correctly: there shouldn't be the need to hide behind metaphors.
And then, only because faith is outside physical senses it doesn't mean it's not... How do I put it, "pertaining to this material reality", it doesn't mean it's trascendent. If you know it relates to you, then you know your brain is involved in the process, and the brain is physical. Unless like in yoga you assign to a part of our brain the function of "transducing", of a "door" to the spiritual world.

I would say that it's not the point that "the true reality will never be destroyed", but *if* we are able to access to it from here, from where we are.
And could you tell me where this "spirit of x" that knows the thoughts of x comes from?
John 14:23 says what it says, but so if the word is in you because you accept Jesus then are not you near to God? Are not you in an anti-paradise? (anti- as "just before")

The holy spirit is promised by God (it is said), but it doesn't matter if you don't feel it. In fact in that case (mine for example) how could you say it's there?
But it's interesting that it grows and that it's a bridge, as I was saying. But the question is always the same: what would be of it if there's wasn't and education, a bible? And not only that: is the person that make the spirit "grow" in himself? How do you feed it? (just to see if our ideas/experiences collide)

I'd say that this enmity is said in genesis to exist with the characters there, but we have not broken any law, "Adam and Eve" did. The part about death is clearer now -- but I still don't see the need for all this drama. That all this is in the bible is right, but considering how many interpretations there are out there I'd say there's much more.

Teaching would have prevented sin, why not? It functions today, why not millienniums ago? Well, thinking about it you're practically saying that knowing things doesn't change morality/ethics. At the moment I cannot help myself but say that it's not correct.
I get the impression you're using the word "perfect" a bit too lightly -- but I will focus on this: how is it possible that they knew what not to do *but* no guilt complex? The two things must exist together, if not what would it mean to do something you shouldn't? Nothing.
Then again how could it be that people there were cheated? If everything had been really perfect, this logically could not have been happened. Not only that, but imagine if God told them *the reasons* for things, or imagine if he instructed his "children" of the snake: no apple.
In the end I don't see how one could mean this story as a real story: when you start applying some reality to it there are too many problems, too many "story devices" for making the plot function.

Yes, some children respond negatively to "don't do this", and in fact Adam and Eve seem children, but let not some events be a judgement for everything, expecially in a "perfect environment".
And then you're saying "they needed a new heart and mind" -- well, so what was before was a failure? The supposed free-will is evil? Why this mess when simply the things could have been "new" from the beginning? I mean, they were "new", the thing doesn't even make sense...
Eventually we'll get to discussing free-will vs environment.

"to make one of these things God throws everything out of sync."
Out of sync?

It is not a matter of "answering a fool" according to him or not. It is a matter of understanding what did he ask. If you're not sure, arm yourself with patience and ask if he did really mean it. Answering absurdity with absurdity stops the discussion. How can a discussion continue? With informations to discuss about.
Do you really think you could stand to be "corrected"? What would mean to you that you got something wrong? What would happen to your life if you were wrong? That's reason I'm asking if you are just saying it or you do really mean it.
In fact, I don't see questions from your part.

You told me that you have fear of death if "aware things aren't right with God", but the question was why did you have fear of death *before* you "opened the bible" in college. Or is the answer the same?
Now, if you want to live forever, may I ask what do you plan for what you'll be doing... forever? I admit that living eternally may be scarier than a finite life...

Absolutes give security, sure, but some spice in our lives is a good thing. The point is I don't see absolutes (yes, I sort of know the ones claimed by religions, but they never proved to be so absolute), could you name some?
But think about it: do you *experience* those absolutes? What would really change in your life without them?
As a marginal note, I've been through both states (belief and nonbelief) in my life like many people here, and while having absolutes is reassuring, to not have them is relieving. But then it's not really that there are not absolutes, simply there are not "absolute" absolutes, there are absolutes but within a context. Which I think it's the only thing that makes sense.

There are multiple times in the bible where the spiritual awakening is described, but if I remember well I was asking about you. The fact is that those words are not really so different from the ones used for other gods.

What is the judging meter of "wilderness", "repenting", and "believing"? Emotions, isn't it so? Too many emotions, metaphors, and too little knowledge and explanations for my tastes.
Then to say "just because several have failed" is euphemistic at best, when the major part of the world has "failed" (by this christian standard).

If faith was like confidence if a person just because of Jesus, then what could have been faith like before him? I think there is something else. I mean, I think all religions share this property of faith, from Sai Baba to old paganism to old animism, because all religions have something to do with men.

For Job, like everyone else, trying to find an explanation for "things falling around him" is reassuring. But if there isn't an explanation for them, then there isn't an explanation. Now I am sorry to put this so in this atheistical way, but that's what I see. Defining "God" a non-explanation for things that happen, does not give you an explanation.
But there are a lot of other ways to look at that thing: why is "bad" that Job's wife is ill? Because she and Job are suffering? That is what people should be using for judging? Well, ok, actually I think the story does teach (teaching about morality -- recall something?) that that isn't true. A bit of "ask yourself a question, give youself an answer" moment, but I'd like to know your opinion.
Not even "endurance" is a right meter of judgement: it may speak about the "power of it", but not the truthness.
So then: I know the question concerns faith, it's evident because there is no other argument satisfied. But that's the reason why the story is useless *in its complexity*. It does nothing.
"God respect our own ability to think?" No, it would be too long to explain but the core is that we don't know exactly what "ability to think" means, so that statement is just a "pour parler".

Solomon's wisdom gallery is "Proverbs", 3000 of them; italian civil law is 2969 articles; even our collection of local proverbs contains 1148 sayings, and there is one for everyone of the 20 regions. So, am I impressed by Solomon? No, and the reasons are not only numbers, but the content. It's not that they are always wrong, in some situations they got it right, but not only the method of ascertaining those "truth" is wrong, also the insight of other scholars who studied humans produced true theories which are not catchphrases. I hope these are not entirely empty words to you.
An example: you said "he who loves knowledge loves discipline". I wouldn't say so.

"This is one thing I have been trying to get across to you - the principle of faith brings you to a level ground of peace above the questionings and uncertainties man will always have."
I know, don't worry about that. But the problems are still there: what does entails to be like that? Is faith coherent with this world? That is what we're discussing, after all.
And also it is *not* a problem that "God doesn't reveal everything", but it is a problem that that knowledge exists or not. Even if I cannot grasp it, the fact that there is or there isn't changes everything. Because if there isn't, then there are no gods.

Searching knowledge in the bible, traying to get what is "says and means" is a branch of knowledge, I suppose, *but* it's knowledge after interpretation. I don't need to interpret the weight of something, I don't need to interpret a diameter, and so on. In every time, in every culture they mean the same exact thing. Imagine what a bible could signify in one thousand years: even today I don't know how many people have seen a plow, a chicken, seeds, and son on. In that future I really can't predict how metaphors could be understood, and the same is for a thousand years ago. It was different.
Are there some examples of the action of the devil?

"If your statement about the "bad seed is burned by a star" is referring to the judgment,..." no, it wasn't. It was something like the thing above.

That your "life center", the "what's happening now" is not big enough for "two masters", I don't want to spoil it, but it's not exactly a surprise (coincidentally, you're saying that your wife cannot be your master). Has been the "dimension" of this "table" always constant?

The promise of "repent and be baptized" doesn't count for me -- if it exists, I'm destined to hell.


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2 P - 10

luca wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

 

One of my answers is...

EDIT About the title: do you *wish* there was someone to arbitrate? I know there aren't spaces, try to answer in another window while keeping the original one (which has spaces) in another. It's not matter of faith or not faith... I couldn't help but think that you got confused with these terms. What has faith to do with observing a thing and it goes one way, then reading about it and it's described as another way? It's a simple discordance. But when there's faith another question follows, by my reasonment: where do faith comes from? And expecially: what would be of faith without a sacred text? About the posts: while it's true that it may not be necessary to answer every specific point, the most important are, well... important, but they too can "expire". If I'll have time I'll make a recap of what I feel has not been correctly addressed and still need to be. Now ok you say "I have confidence in Solomon because I've confidence in the God of the Bible", but then again you said you got confident with the bible by verifying personally that what was written is true... So what are you saying now by "I have confidence in the God of the Bible", that you need no more verifications? If not, then you still need to see if what Solomon said was true... What the word 'prophecy' means in 2 Peter 1:21? If it's only a prediction, then I have to disagree with that verse. Maybe it depends also from the magnitude of the prophecy, I don't know. Always on Solomon: was he so wise? I can't have a proof that he received wisdom from God, but from what I see even if he was above the average he was lacking a lot of what we have today. That's why, I repeat, I don't see wisdom in his actions. And why I say he started with prejudices. It seems it all started for failing, so it's not an experiment, it's a story with a moral in the end. Solomon did not consider every opportunity, and above all what he did consider was vanity. But I agree that part of it is experienced by everyone in his life. I'm sorry if the argument is getting long, but about Ecclesiastes 3:11 there is much other to say. What does it mean "beautiful"? *We* are the one saying it's beautiful, *we* are being the judges. And then you really should say what is really being beautiful... If you are referring to the genital organs of plants, commonly called "flowers", it may be (although probably not the ones that smell of rotten meat or feces), but is beautiful a plant that eats flies? Are beautiful the viruses that kills you? And the insects and parasites that eats you eyes or some other organ? I'm sorry to be so graphic but really, we need to estabilish a common ground, here. Then, always about Ecclesiastes 3:11, it speaks of "eternity in our hearts". But if I say "no, I don't want it", then do you accept it or do you search a reason to justify it, to claim it's wrong? I mean, you say "it's there, maybe buried under something, but it's there", but I tell I cannot find a single reason for eternal life. Sure, for life long as I desire, yes, but *eternal* is a really big, huge thing, really too much. Man has not changed a lot biologically, but the culture did. While it's true that our impulses are the same because the brain is the same, we don't exist in a vacuum. Our thinking is changed by environment (and by the way this is one of the reasons because free will is impossible) and by knowledge (if not, "what" would we think?). And I think the last one is part of men. I would likely say a no (and obviously turn to neurology, neuropsychology, or whatever) to "The Bible describes man to a tee", but before that could you at least explain dunno, how much deep it goes in the explanation? How much do you *need* to go deep in explaining man? I mean, elaborate a little... I knew that you don't "hear your Master's voice" in the Greek tradition, but see where it leads to: do you think they (the greeks, or anyone else) did? They seemed all pretty convinced. And what's the order in this acknowledging the voice? Do you "hear the voice" first and then sift through the religions and suddenly "that's the right one!" or do you have to be "trained" first? I say this because... I mean, I remember you said "knowing God is inborn", but it's still too vague. And it doesn't finish there, there's a discrepancy between too many things, one is for example that it would not be possible that so many religions would have developed, or that people in the past had so little scientific knowledge. I am not sure I get what you are saying about science. "Conclusions" are understood to be temporary, who is "reversing things"? And also "put their faith in science": science doesn't need "faith", but maybe you are meaning something bigger? Like "purpose of life"? Last: "science is not bad" well I'd give it a bit more value than that... Would you have a bible in your hands without printing machines? Without communication devices? Without transport? I mean, I hope you give them a consideration... Okay, Jesus didn't promote religions (but so what about Peter? And Saul/Paul?), but we are "social animals", and there's no way that people follow a faith without forming a group. In fact religion is a social thing, would be faith the same without religion? Think to the many factors: translations, traditions (which obviously is a big part of faith and religions), clashings, and so on. I am not sure what you meant with "Righteousness of God", maybe morality? But I don't see why faith could not be produced by religion, sorry. It may even be considered an autosustaining circle. And I think the facts are with me. Crucifixion was not your idea, but someone evidently thought of it, if it's there -- I don't think I have to say I don't ascribe this idea to God, do I? But there was really a way? Yeah, avoid the sin in first place. "prophesies and glimpses all through the Old Testament" well I think you know we have a hebrew friend here, furrycatherder, probably you should listen to what she has to say. The problem with metaphors is that you are not speaking of things by themselves, and this lead to confusion. To prepare a metaphor you need a context and all that, but in the end it's fake. I want to talk about a chair? Then I say "chair". I want to talk about electrons? Then I say electrons. Metaphors are present when one doesn't know things.

 

Luca,

About the title - Job cried out for an arbitrator between him and God.  What he cried out for - we have.

I took your advice and added a window.

It's one thing to use science - another to have faith in it.  For example, if the Scripture says "God said, let there be light and there was light" but science says something else....  If you believe science you are putting your faith in science.

I have come out of the "Egypt of my sin" into the "wilderness" of getting oriented with God and crossed over into "full assurance" and am in the "promised land", fighting a spiritual battle under the leadership of my Commander.  I have full confidence in God and God's Word.  If something isn't revealed - I have confidence I don't need to know.    

Prophecy means "the Word of God".  It could be about something in the future, but it could be about the present.

Solomon was given a gift of wisdom from God but he disobeyed God in marrying foreign women and multiplying horses and chariots.  He was led astray by his foreign wives.  You are right he didn't apply his wisdom.  I hope Ecclesiastes shows he got it right in the end.  

God made things "beautiful in their time".  He is the One saying it's beautiful.  We are the ones probably out of sync with "their time".  I think Ecclesiastes is a great experiment, upbeat.  I think it's the most relevant experiment.  There are tons of "studies" these days that don't seem to apply to anything - but this applies to all men of all time.

There is a devil trying to screw all "beautiful" thing up and succeeding with a lot of it.  Another thing in 3,11 is the fact that a disadvantage of being a man is not knowing what God's doing.  If we embrace what comes to us as discipline or whatever from a loving Father we will make the most progress with it.  

The Bible shows man is a spiritual being, also that man has a spiritual problem.  The preciousness of the gospel of Jesus Christ is shown by it being the only antidote for man's spiritual problem - from the Great Physician.  Which brings me to "hearing the Master's Voice".....

There is an enmity between us and God - an unpaid debt of sin.  Jesus' death on the cross pays that debt for those who believe in Him and are born anew into Him, accepting this gift in faith.  Thus, the enmity between us and God is removed by Jesus' substitutionary death.  When we accept that Gift, we are given the "Gift of the Holy Spirit" (the guarantee of our inheritance).  God then draws us near to Him and we have within us the means to come to "know God".  In the Bible faith is all the senses - "faith comes by hearing".  We see the truth of the gospel through faith.  We taste that the LORD is good.  

By "religion" I mean any system of behavior that is supposed to earn salvation.  Salvation is a gift - complete with the garment of the Righteousness of God we are clothed with when we accept the gift of Jesus' death for our sins in faith.  Thus we are already "justified" by Jesus' death instantly when we are "born anew".  The sanctification (the Holy Spirit lifting us up and purifying us) continues all our life.  

Neither Peter nor Paul promoted "religion" - they both show salvation can't be earned.  The "Righteousness of God" we are clothed with is Christ.  We are baptized into Christ.  We are in Christ - He is the Head, we (the church) are the body and individually members of it, all unique.  

There's not a need to hide behind metaphors, but they are needed to ramp up into things we don't know about.  I guess there's no need for us to use a metaphor for a chair.  But, "through sloth the house sinks in and through sloth the roof leaks" - applies to both physical houses and also spiritual houses.  A man needs to maintain his spiritual house.  There are things that a man can let slide that are bad maintenance.  

Adam and Eve is more applicable than you might think.  The serpent was very subtle.  "you will be like God, wise".  This desire is living and well.  

I'm deleting the part of your post I consider unanswered.  

What was with the "vinyl glue"?  I used it today and yesterday on PVC.  Also today I used   2 P - 10  ten second adhesive made by Toyota, very good. 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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ANSWER PART 2

luca wrote:

 The problem with metaphors is that you are not speaking of things by themselves, and this lead to confusion. To prepare a metaphor you need a context and all that, but in the end it's fake. I want to talk about a chair? Then I say "chair". I want to talk about electrons? Then I say electrons. Metaphors are present when one doesn't know things. In fact think of all the advantages we gained when we started describing things correctly: there shouldn't be the need to hide behind metaphors. And then, only because faith is outside physical senses it doesn't mean it's not... How do I put it, "pertaining to this material reality", it doesn't mean it's trascendent. If you know it relates to you, then you know your brain is involved in the process, and the brain is physical. Unless like in yoga you assign to a part of our brain the function of "transducing", of a "door" to the spiritual world. I would say that it's not the point that "the true reality will never be destroyed", but *if* we are able to access to it from here, from where we are. And could you tell me where this "spirit of x" that knows the thoughts of x comes from? John 14:23 says what it says, but so if the word is in you because you accept Jesus then are not you near to God? Are not you in an anti-paradise? (anti- as "just before&quotEye-wink The holy spirit is promised by God (it is said), but it doesn't matter if you don't feel it. In fact in that case (mine for example) how could you say it's there? But it's interesting that it grows and that it's a bridge, as I was saying. But the question is always the same: what would be of it if there's wasn't and education, a bible? And not only that: is the person that make the spirit "grow" in himself? How do you feed it? (just to see if our ideas/experiences collide) I'd say that this enmity is said in genesis to exist with the characters there, but we have not broken any law, "Adam and Eve" did. The part about death is clearer now -- but I still don't see the need for all this drama. That all this is in the bible is right, but considering how many interpretations there are out there I'd say there's much more. Teaching would have prevented sin, why not? It functions today, why not millienniums ago? Well, thinking about it you're practically saying that knowing things doesn't change morality/ethics. At the moment I cannot help myself but say that it's not correct. I get the impression you're using the word "perfect" a bit too lightly -- but I will focus on this: how is it possible that they knew what not to do *but* no guilt complex? The two things must exist together, if not what would it mean to do something you shouldn't? Nothing.

 

 

Luca (A pt 2)

 

A metaphor isn't fake - it's a way of speaking about familiar things to describe things unfamiliar.  The senses are represented by faith in Scripture.  First, you "hear" the Word of God (not with just your outer ear but inner ear).  Then you "see" the truth and value of the gospel with your mind and heart.  Then you could "smell" it - it either has the aroma of death or life to you if you don't believe or do.  Then you may "touch" it - make it your own, accept the LORD and His Atoning Sacrifice.  Then you can "taste" and see that the LORD is good and be sustained by it.  It's similar to God feeding the Israelites in the wilderness.  He promised the next day there would be food.  Some probably believed then.  But the next day there it was, manna like hoarfrost on the ground.  They saw it, smelled it, touched it and tasted it.  

The spirit comes from God Who gave it, Who breathed it into man.  The spirit in a man is the life that is beyond the physics of getting oxygen and pumping blood.  The spirit in us enables us to be able to accept the Word of God.  It comes at a bad time though - all men are fallen men before God.  So every man that accepts the cure of the gospel is sick when he accepts it.  A good start is to realize one needs the Physician.  

It's not a matter of "feeling it" with regard to your question of the spirit.  Faith is different than feeling.  (hold that thought) - The Word of God describes Itself as "living and active, sharper than any two edged sword, dividing bone and marrow".  With the light of the Word of God you can discern faith from feeling - it is sharp enough and light enough to enable you to discern the difference.  Think how much more efficient it is to spend your life in submission to the Word of God than trying to come up with your own spiritual GPS.  You'll never be able to come up with the Way on your own.  For one thing, many things are not as they appear on the surface (for example Job).  

God develops faith in us by trials and suffering and our application of faith to them.  It's not popular but effective.  Just like gold is refined by the fire as I said, faith is refined.  Ours is the application and acceptance of it.  To embrace discipline and trial is to get the most out of it - and to acknowledge that God knows what He's doing.  You can use your faith to get more, so you can come out of the poverty of "you don't have" - with "you don't have because you don't ask".  Next, your faith can refine your purpose so "you ask but you don't receive because you ask for the wrong reason - to spend it on your passions".  

So if you ask God to give you a million so you can worship it you won't get it.  But if you ask God for more faith for the right reason - you will.

To simply know the right thing to do doesn't provide the dynamic to do it.  In Christ and His Love and His Sacrifice we see the converting power to come away hating sin totally - a change of heart.  And in fellowship with Him we have great help to do what pleases Him.  Knowing Jesus (as I said) IS Eternal Life - and it starts here.  "By grace YOU HAVE been saved".  Once yo discover that impurity and any sin interferes with your fellowship with Jesus you for sure don't want any part of it.  Once you taste the heavenly gift that is fellowship with the Living Christ you will take every thought captive to avoid any entrance of a threat to it.  You will have power and reason and help to "guard your heart".  The shield of faith will help you defensively and the Sword of the Spirit offensively.  

(again I only showing the part of your post I consider answered)  


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PART 3 MARATHON

luca wrote:

. Teaching would have prevented sin, why not? It functions today, why not millienniums ago? Well, thinking about it you're practically saying that knowing things doesn't change morality/ethics. At the moment I cannot help myself but say that it's not correct. I get the impression you're using the word "perfect" a bit too lightly -- but I will focus on this: how is it possible that they knew what not to do *but* no guilt complex? The two things must exist together, if not what would it mean to do something you shouldn't? Nothing. Then again how could it be that people there were cheated? If everything had been really perfect, this logically could not have been happened. Not only that, but imagine if God told them *the reasons* for things, or imagine if he instructed his "children" of the snake: no apple. In the end I don't see how one could mean this story as a real story: when you start applying some reality to it there are too many problems, too many "story devices" for making the plot function. Yes, some children respond negatively to "don't do this", and in fact Adam and Eve seem children, but let not some events be a judgement for everything, expecially in a "perfect environment". And then you're saying "they needed a new heart and mind" -- well, so what was before was a failure? The supposed free-will is evil? Why this mess when simply the things could have been "new" from the beginning? I mean, they were "new", the thing doesn't even make sense... Eventually we'll get to discussing free-will vs environment. "to make one of these things God throws everything out of sync." Out of sync? It is not a matter of "answering a fool" according to him or not. It is a matter of understanding what did he ask. If you're not sure, arm yourself with patience and ask if he did really mean it. Answering absurdity with absurdity stops the discussion. How can a discussion continue? With informations to discuss about. Do you really think you could stand to be "corrected"? What would mean to you that you got something wrong? What would happen to your life if you were wrong? That's reason I'm asking if you are just saying it or you do really mean it. In fact, I don't see questions from your part. You told me that you have fear of death if "aware things aren't right with God", but the question was why did you have fear of death *before* you "opened the bible" in college. Or is the answer the same? Now, if you want to live forever, may I ask what do you plan for what you'll be doing... forever? I admit that living eternally may be scarier than a finite life... Absolutes give security, sure, but some spice in our lives is a good thing. The point is I don't see absolutes (yes, I sort of know the ones claimed by religions, but they never proved to be so absolute), could you name some? But think about it: do you *experience* those absolutes? What would really change in your life without them? As a marginal note, I've been through both states (belief and nonbelief) in my life like many people here, and while having absolutes is reassuring, to not have them is relieving. But then it's not really that there are not absolutes, simply there are not "absolute" absolutes, there are absolutes but within a context. Which I think it's the only thing that makes sense. There are multiple times in the bible where the spiritual awakening is described, but if I remember well I was asking about you. The fact is that those words are not really so different from the ones used for other gods. What is the judging meter of "wilderness", "repenting", and "believing"? Emotions, isn't it so? Too many emotions, metaphors, and too little knowledge and explanations for my tastes. Then to say "just because several have failed" is euphemistic at best, when the major part of the world has "failed" (by this christian standard). If faith was like confidence if a person just because of Jesus, then what could have been faith like before him? I think there is something else. I mean, I think all religions share this property of faith, from Sai Baba to old paganism to old animism, because all religions have something to do with men. For Job, like everyone else, trying to find an explanation for "things falling around him" is reassuring. But if there isn't an explanation for them, then there isn't an explanation. Now I am sorry to put this so in this atheistical way, but that's what I see. Defining "God" a non-explanation for things that happen, does not give you an explanation. But there are a lot of other ways to look at that thing: why is "bad" that Job's wife is ill? Because she and Job are suffering? That is what people should be using for judging? Well, ok, actually I think the story does teach (teaching about morality -- recall something?) that that isn't true. A bit of "ask yourself a question, give youself an answer" moment, but I'd like to know your opinion. Not even "endurance" is a right meter of judgement: it may speak about the "power of it", but not the truthness. So then: I know the question concerns faith, it's evident because there is no other argument satisfied. But that's the reason why the story is useless *in its complexity*. It does nothing. "God respect our own ability to think?" No, it would be too long to explain but the core is that we don't know exactly what "ability to think" means, so that statement is just a "pour parler". Solomon's wisdom gallery is "Proverbs", 3000 of them; italian civil law is 2969 articles; even our collection of local proverbs contains 1148 sayings, and there is one for everyone of the 20 regions. So, am I impressed by Solomon? No, and the reasons are not only numbers, but the content. It's not that they are always wrong, in some situations they got it right, but not only the method of ascertaining those "truth" is wrong, also the insight of other scholars who studied humans produced true theories which are not catchphrases. I hope these are not entirely empty words to you. An example: you said "he who loves knowledge loves discipline". I wouldn't say so. "This is one thing I have been trying to get across to you - the principle of faith brings you to a level ground of peace above the questionings and uncertainties man will always have." I know, don't worry about that. But the problems are still there: what does entails to be like that? Is faith coherent with this world? That is what we're discussing, after all. And also it is *not* a problem that "God doesn't reveal everything", but it is a problem that that knowledge exists or not. Even if I cannot grasp it, the fact that there is or there isn't changes everything. Because if there isn't, then there are no gods. Searching knowledge in the bible, traying to get what is "says and means" is a branch of knowledge, I suppose, *but* it's knowledge after interpretation. I don't need to interpret the weight of something, I don't need to interpret a diameter, and so on. In every time, in every culture they mean the same exact thing. Imagine what a bible could signify in one thousand years: even today I don't know how many people have seen a plow, a chicken, seeds, and son on. In that future I really can't predict how metaphors could be understood, and the same is for a thousand years ago. It was different. Are there some examples of the action of the devil? "If your statement about the "bad seed is burned by a star" is referring to the judgment,..." no, it wasn't. It was something like the thing above. That your "life center", the "what's happening now" is not big enough for "two masters", I don't want to spoil it, but it's not exactly a surprise (coincidentally, you're saying that your wife cannot be your master). Has been the "dimension" of this "table" always constant? The promise of "repent and be baptized" doesn't count for me -- if it exists, I'm destined to hell.

 

Luca,

 

Not sure if you think "teaching" is functioning well today as far as general behavior, "smoking kills" etc.  

As far as using the word perfect too lightly?  (I can't remember the context of this - the garden of Eden?)  If it's the garden of Eden read the description.  They knew what not to do and they had no baggage propelling them to do it, no bad habits.  They understood what they were not to do.  I would say they were however like a 16 year old not comprehending the responsibility of driving (inexperience).  Their conscience was unmarked until they went against God's instructions.  Then they hid.  

The problem wasn't the situation - it was the disobedience and possibly believing the seductive lie of the serpent.  I have confidence the discipline of God was totally correct and exactly right.  I totally believe the story is real as told.  We are told all we need to know about it.  

I'm not "judging" everything from this - my position is understanding, accepting and applying, aligning my thinking to it.  My questions are not at all whether the story is real - just discerning how it applies to this spiritual battle I'm in.  Adam and Eve were inexperienced at a certain level - and so am I.  

As far as why God allowed man to fall then redeemed them, I don't know.  God knew it all ahead because Scripture says "The Lamb was slain before the world was created" - so God did some planning  before He created the world.  The Salvation glorifies God and shows man He needs God.  The Way of Salvation through faith causes man to grip God in the grip of faith.  The heart conversion brought about by God's Own Son "lifted up" draws (those who believe) to Him, causes them to hate sin.  The King of Kings wins the heart of His subjects such that they will die rather than renounce Him.  It can't be described as remodeling or reformation, only rebirth.  You don't need to replace the faucets or plumbing or street water pipes when the water in the tower is polluted.  You need a new heart and mind washed clean by the blood of the Lamb.  When we are "born anew" God "makes all things new".  

To make something that is not God "god" throws everything out of sync;  for example, it's good to love your wife.  But to worship your wife is to ask more of marriage than it has to give.  To make your wife God throws everything out of sync.  It's good to work and enjoy your work.  But to make it your "god" throws everything out of sync.  Again, you're asking more of it than it has to give and indeed more of it than it is.  When your God is the LORD - then everything can fall into its rightful place.  God tells us to love our wives like Christ loved the church.  God tells us to "eat and drink and enjoy our work", etc, etc. 

There are reasons to answer and reasons not to answer.  There is a difference between "answering a fool according to his folly" (lest he be wise in his own eyes) and becoming a fool so you can answer him as a fool.  The Scriptures say the devising of folly is sin, so there is some navigation.  As to "how can discussion continue"?  Sometimes it's best if discussions don't continue for one thing.  Sometimes what is desired is not discussion but just to parade folly and impress fools.  

I love to be corrected.  "He who loves discipline loves knowledge".  "He who rejects reproof goes astray".  "like apples of gold in a setting of silver are a wise reprover to a listening ear".  "Without counsel plans go wrong but with an abundance of counselors they succeed".  I can honestly say I love strong rebuke when I'm in the wrong.  

I can give you an example of getting something wrong from my study this week (1 Peter 2).  I see I need to stop dishonoring the president.  I have had a problem with that (not on this forum but in other ways).  I aim to change that and separate myself from that part of me that would do that.  I'm still connected to my old self such that I have to be on guard against it.  The fact that I am totally confident in God could come across as arrogant but it's just total confidence in God.  Correct me from the Word of God - I'm not concerned about pleasing men.  

Before I was "born anew" there wasn't much light of thought going on really.  I realize that much more from this side.  

Yes I plan to live forever in Christ - that's based on the promise that I have from God that "neither life nor death nor anything else in all creation can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus".  

What I plan to do for eternity?  Remember, I gave you that Scripture in John that says eternal life is knowing Jesus?  I can already see without doubt that it will be an eternity's fascination knowing Jesus.  Before I was "born anew" I would tire of anything in 3 weeks for sure.  From that time I have never ceased being totally fascinated with Jesus (the living Word) and the written Word.  

Absolutes?  Jesus is LORD.  Jesus is God's Son.  Jesus was with God before the world was created and agreed then to come and die on a cross to save us.  Jesus was born of a virgin.  Jesus was 100% man and 100% God.  Jesus lived a perfect life - the spotless Lamb of God.  Jesus is the only One to perfectly keep the Law.  Jesus didn't therefore have to die.  Jesus died willingly (could have called for angels to rescue) taking on Himself our guilt.  Jesus died.  Jesus rose from the grave and now lives with an indestructible life.  Jesus lives in His People, His church.  Jesus intercedes for us to God.  Jesus is coming.  Jesus' death shows God is serious about both justice and mercy.  Jesus' death shows us how serious our sin is.  Jesus' death shows us God means what He says about hell.  Every Word of God proves true - do not add to His words lest He rebuke you and you be proved a liar.  

Yes I experience these absolutes - these things aren't moving.  Sorry, I can't imagine life without God and Jesus and the Word of God.  If I could I wouldn't want to. 

Not absolute absolutes?    That reminds me of a song without an established key - or driving without declaring a lane - a rudderless ship - working not being able to find any of your tools - an inefficient approach to life (which has a time limit).  I don't know why you would want to spend your life searching for a thought which is out of reach.  Pride is a fake state, a "fooling oneself" state.  Humility (realizing things as they are) is a real state, a learning position.  Submitting to God's absolutes is efficient and refreshing - but not only that, God loves us.  He gives us a way we can know that.

Other gods?  You aren't bringing up anything new here - I mean in the history of man there have been "other gods".  God's plagues through Moses didn't impress the magicians or Pharaoh.  You have to make that choice yourself.  I have made mine.

What is the judging of "repenting", "wilderness", and "believing"?  It seems a little tough for dumb sheep, huh.  How is it that sheep survive?  (Shepherd)  And the LORD'S sheep survive through faith in their Shepherd.  You don't see the difference between emotions and faith.  I do.  Emotions are like the weather.  I can be experiencing bad weather but solid faith.

Again I'm not the Publisher, just the paperboy.  Several have failed - just look at Noah's day.  Look at Elijah against the 400 prophets of baal.  He was right they were wrong.  

The Spirit of Jesus was in the world before Jesus came in the flesh.  In the wilderness the Israelites drank from the Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ (google that).  There was faith in God, "he who through faith is righteous shall live" (google that).  And it's true that you can put your faith in a false religion.  So you don't want to have any doubts about this.  

I have been studying Job more closely and I have just been reading where Job senses that God is testing him.  He figures that out.  He says, "when I am tried I shall come forth as gold".  I think that's the quote - you can check it out.  Anyway you can see he wasn't depending on feelings - he wasn't letting a smile be his umbrella.

You don't need to be sorry to put anything in an atheist explanation.  I have had things I couldn't explain at the time - why something was happening.  Looking back, it's clear.  With Job - in this chapter I am currently reading I think he became aware (if not before) that this was a test - and for sure from the end looking back he totally understood.  But faith enables you to hold on patiently when you don't understand.  You could apply this to people for comparison.  You could have faith in a coach or parent's guidance even though you didn't understand.   

You have faith in your scholars.  I have total faith in the Proverbs gathered from one Shepherd (as described end of Ecclesiastes)  You can choose your proverbs - I will beware of them. 

As to "he who loves discipline loves knowledge" - a metaphor is that an athlete comes to realize the pain of training is good.

Faith coherent with the world?  Probably not to a worldling.  We are supposed to be "in the world but not of the world".  Jesus' kingdom is "not of this world".  Those of faith are typically rejected by the world, the world hates them.  If they were of the world the world would love them.  My purpose isn't to make the world love me.  

Believe me, I'm not working at believing in God.  You have a problem believing in God but I don't.  God is.  

The Bible has a way of interpreting itself, defining itself.  For instance, "scoffer is the name of the proud haughty man that acts with insolent pride".  "who is greater - he who serves or he who is served?  Yet I am among you as One Who serves".  Thus "scoffer" is defined, "greatness" is defined, etc.

The devil is said to be going about like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour.  He is the father of lies, when he lies he speaks from his nature (sincerely I guess) because he is a 100% liar.  He attacks faith.  He presents sin as sport when it doesn't deliver but rather destroys and ensnares.  He corrupts beautiful things.  He uses people no deposit no return.  He tries to present the opposite of what the Word of God says.  He is able to convince people chained in sin that they are free when they're not.  

As far as your assessment of your own state - "whosoever will may come".  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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I've seen this thread around for awhile, I'll take a stab at it.  Hi, Fonzie.  I glanced at the last few very long posts on this thread and it looked like you guys were talking about the Bible.  I'm just going to address your original post for now.  I remember reading the first couple of pages here awhile ago, so I'm kind of familiar with the thread, but barely.

 

Fonzie wrote:

 Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

There sure is mystery.  So what?  And how exactly does faith in Jesus work for you?  Maybe it just helps you get through the day, or your entire life, but that doesn't make it true.  You probably don't believe you should follow all the commandments in the Bible, and the New Testament isn't even clear on what version of Christianity to follow.  And I'm glad you're happy, but that doesn't prove your claims -- unless one of your claims is "Believing in and following what the Bible says about Jesus will make you happy."  There are many happy Muslims and believers in Thor.  The fact that smoking pot makes you happy doesn't mean it's good for your lungs. 

 

Fonzie wrote:

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

You understand that you can't make us believe, but you recommend it?  I don't want it unless it's true.  Prove to me that it's true however you want.  I imagine you're going to use history and faith.  I don't care if it makes your life better, I want something true.  You should try science and naturalistic philosophy, by the way.

 

Fonzie wrote:

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.

How did your life change?  Was it the Holy Spirit?  You're right, that doesn't count as proof.  It was a subjective experience.  (Correct me if something else convinced you that Jesus is God and rose from the dead and that you should have a relationship with Him.)  And why don't you think that God and Jesus can be proven to somebody else?  There should be historical evidence for Jesus and His supposed works, and scientific data for a deity, before we believe.

 

Fonzie wrote:

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel?  

You keep bringing up the word "happy" like it proves that your beliefs are true.  I believe you're happy and I believe you're wrong about God and Jesus.  I know you're not a metaphysical naturalist, but you can start by accepting the current scientific data about the universe.  I don't know if you're a young earth creationist; forgive me if I assumed wrongly, but that's a good guess.

Oh, and the present scientific data shows that humans and the other animals don't need deities to be moral -- that's already been explained.

 

 

 

 


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Philosophicus wrote:
I've seen this thread around for awhile, I'll take a stab at it.  Hi, Fonzie.

I don't think you will find what you want, here. Please, speak with Anonymouse first, or at least read through the thread.

 


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luca wrote:

Philosophicus wrote:
I've seen this thread around for awhile, I'll take a stab at it.  Hi, Fonzie.

I don't think you will find what you want, here. Please, speak with Anonymouse first, or at least read through the thread.

 

What did you think I wanted?  And why would I speak with Anonymouse?  I've already read through the first couple pages or so of the thread awhile ago; I decided to take a chance with the original post.  There was no way I was going to read the entire thread, or even any where near the entire thread, before I posted. 


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Philosophicus wrote:
luca wrote:
Philosophicus wrote:
I've seen this thread around for awhile, I'll take a stab at it.  Hi, Fonzie.

I don't think you will find what you want, here. Please, speak with Anonymouse first, or at least read through the thread.

What did you think I wanted?  And why would I speak with Anonymouse?  I've already read through the first couple pages or so of the thread awhile ago; I decided to take a chance with the original post.  There was no way I was going to read the entire thread, or even any where near the entire thread, before I posted.

I think you want something you cannot obtain. You should speak with Anonymouse because he has read the entire thread and he could give advices. Read more than two pages, read at least 600/800 messages, it will take one or two days, it's not a big effort. Some questions you've asked have been already answered (as one would expect in a 3000+ posts thread).


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luca wrote:

Philosophicus wrote:
luca wrote:
Philosophicus wrote:
I've seen this thread around for awhile, I'll take a stab at it.  Hi, Fonzie.

I don't think you will find what you want, here. Please, speak with Anonymouse first, or at least read through the thread.

What did you think I wanted?  And why would I speak with Anonymouse?  I've already read through the first couple pages or so of the thread awhile ago; I decided to take a chance with the original post.  There was no way I was going to read the entire thread, or even any where near the entire thread, before I posted.

I think you want something you cannot obtain. You should speak with Anonymouse because he has read the entire thread and he could give advices. Read more than two pages, read at least 600/800 messages, it will take one or two days, it's not a big effort. Some questions you've asked have been already answered (as one would expect in a 3000+ posts thread).

 

Yeah, I figured some, if not all, of my points had already been addressed.  But I figured I'd try anyway.  I imagined there would have been some repetition after 60+ pages of debate.  I want something I can't obtain?  It doesn't sound like Fonzie is convincible! 


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No need to speak with me

No need to speak with me about anything. I don't own this thread. I just thought it was idiotic to keep a thread alive where a repeat troll just keeps repeating the same questions for years, ignoring the answers, and claiming he never got answered and only got "mocked".

Obviously, the mods have a different opinion. They seem quite happy to let this continue for yet another 6 or more years. And if any well-meaning new members get stuck in Fonzie/meph's moebius loop of dishonesty, well, that seems to be no problem for them as well.

I made a thread about this last year, simply asking why this was allowed to continue. It got deleted. Go figure.

In any case, do what you like. You too, Luca.

 

(Oh, and in case there are any mods out there, please delete my account. Or just give me a troll badge, an asshat badge or even a theist badge )

 

 

 

 

 


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Anonymouse wrote:

No need to speak with me about anything. I don't own this thread. I just thought it was idiotic to keep a thread alive where a repeat troll just keeps repeating the same questions for years, ignoring the answers, and claiming he never got answered and only got "mocked".

Obviously, the mods have a different opinion. They seem quite happy to let this continue for yet another 6 or more years. And if any well-meaning new members get stuck in Fonzie/meph's moebius loop of dishonesty, well, that seems to be no problem for them as well.

I made a thread about this last year, simply asking why this was allowed to continue. It got deleted. Go figure.

In any case, do what you like. You too, Luca.

 

(Oh, and in case there are any mods out there, please delete my account. Or just give me a troll badge, an asshat badge or even a theist badge )

 

 

Why are there two Anonymouse's?  There's you, then there's A_Nony_Mouse.  Anyway... why do you want a troll and a theist badge?   Back to the thread.  I might as well give it a few stabs.  It looks like mostly scriptural debate lately, but I'll watch where it goes.  Another being-high-is-more-important-than-being-right case. 


luca
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and yet it moves

Anonymouse wrote:
No need to speak with me about anything. I don't own this thread.

I only said you can give advices.

Anonymouse wrote:
I just thought it was idiotic to keep a thread alive where a repeat troll just keeps repeating the same questions for years, ignoring the answers, and claiming he never got answered and only got "mocked".

And yet when I asked what happens with other theists I got no answer.

Anonymouse wrote:
Obviously, the mods have a different opinion. They seem quite happy to let this continue for yet another 6 or more years. And if any well-meaning new members get stuck in Fonzie/meph's moebius loop of dishonesty, well, that seems to be no problem for them as well.

You are giving the impression of seeing this as a challenge, while there's none. Nobody "wins".

Anonymouse wrote:
I made a thread about this last year, simply asking why this was allowed to continue. It got deleted. Go figure.

I think I told you my opinions about this thread.

Anonymouse wrote:
In any case, do what you like. You too, Luca.

You can do what you like too.

Anonymouse wrote:
(Oh, and in case there are any mods out there, please delete my account. Or just give me a troll badge, an asshat badge or even a theist badge )

Now you're just being silly. I explained what I want. You simply are not considering my words until you don't get the answer you want. Remember something?


luca
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don't remember vinyl glue :(

\

Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

About the title - Job cried out for an arbitrator between him and God. What he cried out for - we have.


Fonzie wrote:
Luca (A pt 2)

A metaphor isn't fake - it's a way of speaking about familiar things to describe things unfamiliar. The senses are represented by faith in Scripture. First, you "hear" the Word of


Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

Not sure if you think "teaching" is functioning well today as far as general behavior, "smoking kills" etc.
As far as using the word perfect too lightly? (I can't remember the context of this - the garden of Eden?) If it's the garden of Eden read the description. They knew what not to

I get it, the arbitrator thing. But that poor guy didn't came here alone, many say to have been like him.

What is the difference between using science and "having faith" in science? Relooking at the answers maybe you mean it as "relying exclusively on it to live"?
Keep in mind that science is not about giving a definitive absolute answer (it's just a description - living beings are the ones that act).

Prophecy is the word of God, ok. So, couldn't there be any more prophecies?

Ecclesiastes maybe applies to men of all times, but to me it seems always less with the passing of the centuries.
What Solomon wasn't able to do is simply to explain "why". That's it. Know the "why", and you can solve your problems. Or well, at least you have a possibility.

So what do you think "in their time" means? "In the beginning"?

An example of a "beautiful" thing the devil screwed up?
"He is able to convince people chained in sin that they are free when they're not." Well I was trying to have an example... This is not it, but it's still interesting. No, wait, it's still circular logic, because sin is defined in the bible, right?
Also have you came with a reason for which man has to have the disadvantage of not knowing "what God's doing"?

Permit me a correction: the bible shows that *some* *ancient* men of a *particular place* were spiritual. I cannot help but say that I don't share their "inheritance".

If religion is "any system of behavior that is supposed to earn salvation" then what about religions where there's no salvation or no need for salvation? (Might the answer be "don't care"?)
Not only that: I repeat, I still don't see the need for a salvation, in the sense: it seems really silly that we had to do all this road to be saved when we were perfect in the beginning. By proving that perfection is not "bulletproof", we might fall again.
And again: why all this playacting when in the end we get salvation? Did we do something to earn it? No, he just gives it. So again: why the need at all to exit from heaven (even if we *supposedly* sinned)? There's something more in the story, instead that just that.
Adam and Eve will be more applicable when I will find a sense in it. Laughing out loud Actually, could you tell me why would one wish "to be like God"?

Well I may get it wrong but if you use metaphors to speak of things you don't know about, then you are still speaking of something you don't know about.
Anyway, let's talk about metaphors, for example the one you quoted, "through sloth the house sinks in and through sloth the roof leaks". If I have a house, I can make a list of the works that needs to be done once in a while. I could see then that this list would contain things that are in other lists, and I could see that this happens for certain places and for certain types of houses. So if I say "I buy a house there, what maintaining would it require?", and there, you have the list. Now, I contend two things: first, we are not houses, we are humans; I mean, we could even (and I think we will) design a house that maintains itself - it just needs electricity. Where would that metaphor end? Should we study history to remember that one century ago houses need maintaining?
Second, I don't know what use to make of the word "spiritual" in that phrase ("spiritual houses"). It seems to me that we're talking about "material" things, things that have a cause and a fulfilment (imagine a "list of things to maintain" built for us - in the end, life is repetitive).
I hope you see my point; also I don't think you expected something different from me. I want to see where this thing enters in contact with (our) reality. If you continue to speak by metaphors, altough I might understand what you are saying, I can continue to tell you "you're wrong". When I'll be shown a {chair} instead of {a metaphor for a chair}, then things will happen.
Last: what is this thing about metaphors that "smells of death if you don't believe"?
Very last: "hating sin: a change of heart" it's not like you undergo a chirurgical operation, so that wording comes because, I think, of a feeling (in the chest area) (or maybe the apparent centrality of the heart), but it doesn't go much further that that. The problem with metaphors, from another point of view, is that they have little meaning: you need interpretation to have result, which means applying knowledge. This alone renders the metaphor useless, from what I see.

Could you find some univocal words for describing "the life beyond the physics of getting oxygen and pumping blood"?

"Faith is different than feeling." Yes, I never claimed the contrary. You said "faith is like confidence in a person", and I have no doubts about it. Instead, what I said (what I asked about, too) is that faith speaks to you by feelings. Or not?
About the efficiency of "submitting to God instead of building a spiritual GPS", well, I think all in all it's not much different. What concerns me are two things: not the efficiency, but the correctness (first we search the truth, *after* that we seek efficiency), and, ABOVE ALL, how can you understand if a morality ("spiritual gps") is right (so to understand if yours or the God's suggested one is "functioning" and how well -- ignoring the "You'll never be able to come up with the Way on your own" part, obviously).
I mean, it's like you are saying "everyone who ever lived that didn't follow God's spiritual gps (obviously after the bible has been compiled) had a faulty morality" and subsequently was... (unhappy?).

The "wrong" reasons for asking things to God are told in the bible, so this is circular logic, or is there something more?
"God develops faith in us by trials and suffering and our application of faith to them." Ok, but so what do you think it happens without faith?
Last: it's not that I "don't ask", but I don't ask to religions. I ask to someone who effectively shows, by my standars, by bringing evidence, that he knows what he is doing. Which I think is the same with you, but probably the difference between us is that I search the explanations in things I can "alter", which are physical things -- and this means, at least as I understand, that man is physical, that behavior is physical, and that all the explanation for it takes in account only physical factors.

"To simply know the right thing to do doesn't provide the dynamic to do it" but it provides an opportunity (for example you can understand if what you're doing is correct). What is the difference between us, if not in knowledge?
"Once you taste the heavenly gift that is fellowship with the Living Christ you will take every thought captive to avoid any entrance of a threat to it." Yes, so are emotions the mean (as "vehicle") of faith?
I only would add that one probably would need a continued satisfaction to repay the effort and that one adheres to it while it proves to him, considering also social factors.

Do you think the "smoking kills" sentence written on things should end all smoking? Probably saying "smoking will force you and everyone else to pay more medical bills (and then make you suffer more until you die)" would have more effect. Smiling
Still it probably did a difference for someone. I just hope you don't call two words "teaching"... It's only a motto to try to get emotively/emotionally someone, it doesn't address the reason for which one is smoking.

The word 'perfect' in the Eden context is a right example. I read "the description" (multiple times, obviously), but it's too vague. They may have even known "what not to do", but what does it change if you can't know what is right from what isn't? It would make no sense for you.

"The Salvation glorifies God and shows man He needs God." Personally I don't feel the need to discuss about the "glorifies God", but probably you'll intuit that I have some problems with the second part. All the "philosophy", the stories in the bible (adam and eve, solomon, exodus, job, whatever), whether they are true or not, are an extra, as they all fall in the circularity that the bible proves itself. But this central argument, this "shows man he needs God", musts manifest in some way. It is not a banal argument, because it takes in account "the fall", so there's some complexity in it, but I (we) still need some hard facts to start with "man needs God", some reasons that make it true. If you say "hey, I need it" so then you believe and then you say "everyone needs it" I'd say you've made a mistake.

"you're asking more of it than it has to give and indeed more of it than it is" but wait a minute... it's not just "asking more", in the sense that I don't know if you're implying that first you _can't/don't_ ask something like morality *and then*, given that, you cannot ask "more".
Instead about this "more" is this concerning actions? knowledge?
I don't understand, in the end, how this could be "making a god something that is not God", it seems a misunderstanding of functions, or terms.

"Sometimes what is desired is not discussion but just to parade folly and impress fools." Yes, but I think the discussion should end only if there are no parts that are able to change those objectives.

"Correct me from the Word of God - I'm not concerned about pleasing men." Beside the obvious joke about "pleasing women", you seem nonetheless concerned about pleasing yourself. You want to be happy, don't you?
And about dishonoring the president, well, here it is (and have been) very dishonorable, so as of now I don't see the problem in it.

"Before I was "born anew" there wasn't much light of thought going on" you said you were "uneasy". Would you say that sometimes faith tires you? That you need to "recharge you batteries"?
Do you plan to do something else beside "knowing Jesus" in the eternity?

("Jesus is coming"? I mean, you can tell everything about Jesus, but "is coming" is not exactly devoid of problems...)

"Yes I experience these absolutes - these things aren't moving" Well the interpretation of the bible changed through epoch, as the understanding of God and Jesus, for example. Does this matter?
"I don't know why you would want to spend your life searching for a thought which is out of reach." Because my life, my work, would make it easier for other people to obtain that thought. And in the meantime other advantages for us could come out. What was that "unreachable thought" you were talking about?

"Other gods? You have to make that choice yourself." But you are not talking about "choices", you are talking about "mistakes". If you don't follow God's will then you make a mistake. These "choices" seems random, how could you tell one from another?

"You don't see the difference between emotions and faith." Again, I have not said that. I said that that is the way faith manifests. I would say that faith is like "conventions" (not as in gathering, but as in agreement).
"It seems a little tough for dumb sheep, huh." If it is advantageous for the sheep to understand, then in time the sheep will understand.

"Look at Elijah against the 400 prophets of baal. He was right they were wrong." Heh, we would need the version of the other side and a cross-examination to know what happened. Eye-wink
"Several have failed - just look at Noah's day." That was my point. 'Several' is not the correct word for "the majority", or even "everyone except one or two people".

"... And it's true that you can put your faith in a false religion. So you don't want to have any doubts about this."
I don't have any.

"when I am tried I shall come forth as gold" Job 23:10. In one of my bibles (catholics) it says "when I am examined..." (maybe the meaning is the same? I'm translating), others agree with yours.
Anyway I don't think that's a sign he realized he's a "toy" of those two trascendental beings. He seems to not even ask himself the question much. In the beginning he says "we accept the good that comes from God, why not the bad?". After some time he looks around and says "hey, something's not right here!", then God starts talking. I mean, he didn't need faith, he had God. Talking. To him.
Job wasn't depending on feelings in the sense that he was depending on perceptions -- pain. But at some point some judgement musts enter in action, if not you're a robot. And I don't see why Job could not have used emotions for that.
You can't compare/apply faith to people. A coach or a parent can tell me to do a thing, and I do it, I don't even question them (as a child), but it's not "that faith", it's infinitely different. With God, you don't know and stop, that's it (the non-explanation). With people, you have a reason. They may even tell you why they're asking you to do something, but still they learned it. But what's more you're implying, it seems, that they're right (and you are right to put faith in them), but that's wrong, as you need to understand what you're doing, not just have faith. Usually that's the aim of those tasks. I wish I explained myself better, but I hope this will do.
Just a curiosity: do you take notes while reading/studing the bible?

"You can choose your proverbs" The point is that I don't choose proverbs, I choose explanations. Maybe they will not be explanations about life, the universe, and everything, but I can test if they are right.

I know that Jesus' kingdom is not of this world. Maybe he's just a green alien. ;P
"Those of faith are typically rejected by the world, the world hates them" -- oh come on... that's the catchphrase that rules them all..
"My purpose isn't to make the world love me" but would you say that you can conduct a good life if you're not loved?

As long as the bible is written in any human language, it cannot 'define itself'. You need to look at the external world for the definition of things (and words can die, and they did).
In the second example (who is greater), I find 'greatness' is not defined.

"whosoever will may come" Well, I know I don't want an eternal life. Where should I go, up or down? (supposing I didn't renounce the savior...)


Fonzie
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VINYL WHAT?

luca wrote:
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Fonzie wrote:
Luca, About the title - Job cried out for an arbitrator between him and God. What he cried out for - we have.
Fonzie wrote:
Luca (A pt 2) A metaphor isn't fake - it's a way of speaking about familiar things to describe things unfamiliar. The senses are represented by faith in Scripture. First, you "hear" the Word of
Fonzie wrote:
Luca, Not sure if you think "teaching" is functioning well today as far as general behavior, "smoking kills" etc. As far as using the word perfect too lightly? (I can't remember the context of this - the garden of Eden?) If it's the garden of Eden read the description. They knew what not to
I get it, the arbitrator thing. But that poor guy didn't came here alone, many say to have been like him. What is the difference between using science and "having faith" in science? Relooking at the answers maybe you mean it as "relying exclusively on it to live"? Keep in mind that science is not about giving a definitive absolute answer (it's just a description - living beings are the ones that act). Prophecy is the word of God, ok. So, couldn't there be any more prophecies? Ecclesiastes maybe applies to men of all times, but to me it seems always less with the passing of the centuries. What Solomon wasn't able to do is simply to explain "why". That's it. Know the "why", and you can solve your problems. Or well, at least you have a possibility. So what do you think "in their time" means? "In the beginning"? An example of a "beautiful" thing the devil screwed up? "He is able to convince people chained in sin that they are free when they're not." Well I was trying to have an example... This is not it, but it's still interesting. No, wait, it's still circular logic, because sin is defined in the bible, right? Also have you came with a reason for which man has to have the disadvantage of not knowing "what God's doing"? Permit me a correction: the bible shows that *some* *ancient* men of a *particular place* were spiritual. I cannot help but say that I don't share their "inheritance". If religion is "any system of behavior that is supposed to earn salvation" then what about religions where there's no salvation or no need for salvation? (Might the answer be "don't care"?) Not only that: I repeat, I still don't see the need for a salvation, in the sense: it seems really silly that we had to do all this road to be saved when we were perfect in the beginning. By proving that perfection is not "bulletproof", we might fall again. And again: why all this playacting when in the end we get salvation? Did we do something to earn it? No, he just gives it. So again: why the need at all to exit from heaven (even if we *supposedly* sinned)? There's something more in the story, instead that just that. Adam and Eve will be more applicable when I will find a sense in it. Laughing out loud Actually, could you tell me why would one wish "to be like God"? Well I may get it wrong but if you use metaphors to speak of things you don't know about, then you are still speaking of something you don't know about. Anyway, let's talk about metaphors, for example the one you quoted, "through sloth the house sinks in and through sloth the roof leaks". If I have a house, I can make a list of the works that needs to be done once in a while. I could see then that this list would contain things that are in other lists, and I could see that this happens for certain places and for certain types of houses. So if I say "I buy a house there, what maintaining would it require?", and there, you have the list. Now, I contend two things: first, we are not houses, we are humans; I mean, we could even (and I think we will) design a house that maintains itself - it just needs electricity. Where would that metaphor end? Should we study history to remember that one century ago houses need maintaining? Second, I don't know what use to make of the word "spiritual" in that phrase ("spiritual houses&quotEye-wink. It seems to me that we're talking about "material" things, things that have a cause and a fulfilment (imagine a "list of things to maintain" built for us - in the end, life is repetitive). I hope you see my point; also I don't think you expected something different from me. I want to see where this thing enters in contact with (our) reality. If you continue to speak by metaphors, altough I might understand what you are saying, I can continue to tell you "you're wrong". When I'll be shown a {chair} instead of {a metaphor for a chair}, then things will happen. Last: what is this thing about metaphors that "smells of death if you don't believe"? Very last: "hating sin: a change of heart" it's not like you undergo a chirurgical operation, so that wording comes because, I think, of a feeling (in the chest area) (or maybe the apparent centrality of the heart), but it doesn't go much further that that. The problem with metaphors, from another point of view, is that they have little meaning: you need interpretation to have result, which means applying knowledge. This alone renders the metaphor useless, from what I see. Could you find some univocal words for describing "the life beyond the physics of getting oxygen and pumping blood"? "Faith is different than feeling." Yes, I never claimed the contrary. You said "faith is like confidence in a person", and I have no doubts about it. Instead, what I said (what I asked about, too) is that faith speaks to you by feelings. Or not? About the efficiency of "submitting to God instead of building a spiritual GPS", well, I think all in all it's not much different. What concerns me are two things: not the efficiency, but the correctness (first we search the truth, *after* that we seek efficiency), and, ABOVE ALL, how can you understand if a morality ("spiritual gps&quotEye-wink is right (so to understand if yours or the God's suggested one is "functioning" and how well -- ignoring the "You'll never be able to come up with the Way on your own" part, obviously). I mean, it's like you are saying "everyone who ever lived that didn't follow God's spiritual gps (obviously after the bible has been compiled) had a faulty morality" and subsequently was... (unhappy?). The "wrong" reasons for asking things to God are told in the bible, so this is circular logic, or is there something more? "God develops faith in us by trials and suffering and our application of faith to them." Ok, but so what do you think it happens without faith? Last: it's not that I "don't ask", but I don't ask to religions. I ask to someone who effectively shows, by my standars, by bringing evidence, that he knows what he is doing. Which I think is the same with you, but probably the difference between us is that I search the explanations in things I can "alter", which are physical things -- and this means, at least as I understand, that man is physical, that behavior is physical, and that all the explanation for it takes in account only physical factors. "To simply know the right thing to do doesn't provide the dynamic to do it" but it provides an opportunity (for example you can understand if what you're doing is correct). What is the difference between us, if not in knowledge? "Once you taste the heavenly gift that is fellowship with the Living Christ you will take every thought captive to avoid any entrance of a threat to it." Yes, so are emotions the mean (as "vehicle&quotEye-wink of faith? I only would add that one probably would need a continued satisfaction to repay the effort and that one adheres to it while it proves to him, considering also social factors. Do you think the "smoking kills" sentence written on things should end all smoking? Probably saying "smoking will force you and everyone else to pay more medical bills (and then make you suffer more until you die)" would have more effect. Smiling Still it probably did a difference for someone. I just hope you don't call two words "teaching"... It's only a motto to try to get emotively/emotionally someone, it doesn't address the reason for which one is smoking. The word 'perfect' in the Eden context is a right example. I read "the description" (multiple times, obviously), but it's too vague. They may have even known "what not to do", but what does it change if you can't know what is right from what isn't? It would make no sense for you. "The Salvation glorifies God and shows man He needs God." Personally I don't feel the need to discuss about the "glorifies God", but probably you'll intuit that I have some problems with the second part. All the "philosophy", the stories in the bible (adam and eve, solomon, exodus, job, whatever), whether they are true or not, are an extra, as they all fall in the circularity that the bible proves itself. But this central argument, this "shows man he needs God", musts manifest in some way. It is not a banal argument, because it takes in account "the fall", so there's some complexity in it, but I (we) still need some hard facts to start with "man needs God", some reasons that make it true. If you say "hey, I need it" so then you believe and then you say "everyone needs it" I'd say you've made a mistake. "you're asking more of it than it has to give and indeed more of it than it is" but wait a minute... it's not just "asking more", in the sense that I don't know if you're implying that first you _can't/don't_ ask something like morality *and then*, given that, you cannot ask "more". Instead about this "more" is this concerning actions? knowledge? I don't understand, in the end, how this could be "making a god something that is not God", it seems a misunderstanding of functions, or terms. "Sometimes what is desired is not discussion but just to parade folly and impress fools." Yes, but I think the discussion should end only if there are no parts that are able to change those objectives. "Correct me from the Word of God - I'm not concerned about pleasing men." Beside the obvious joke about "pleasing women", you seem nonetheless concerned about pleasing yourself. You want to be happy, don't you? And about dishonoring the president, well, here it is (and have been) very dishonorable, so as of now I don't see the problem in it. "Before I was "born anew" there wasn't much light of thought going on" you said you were "uneasy". Would you say that sometimes faith tires you? That you need to "recharge you batteries"? Do you plan to do something else beside "knowing Jesus" in the eternity? ("Jesus is coming"? I mean, you can tell everything about Jesus, but "is coming" is not exactly devoid of problems...) "Yes I experience these absolutes - these things aren't moving" Well the interpretation of the bible changed through epoch, as the understanding of God and Jesus, for example. Does this matter? "I don't know why you would want to spend your life searching for a thought which is out of reach." Because my life, my work, would make it easier for other people to obtain that thought. And in the meantime other advantages for us could come out. What was that "unreachable thought" you were talking about? "Other gods? You have to make that choice yourself." But you are not talking about "choices", you are talking about "mistakes". If you don't follow God's will then you make a mistake. These "choices" seems random, how could you tell one from another? "You don't see the difference between emotions and faith." Again, I have not said that. I said that that is the way faith manifests. I would say that faith is like "conventions" (not as in gathering, but as in agreement). "It seems a little tough for dumb sheep, huh." If it is advantageous for the sheep to understand, then in time the sheep will understand. "Look at Elijah against the 400 prophets of baal. He was right they were wrong." Heh, we would need the version of the other side and a cross-examination to know what happened. Eye-wink "Several have failed - just look at Noah's day." That was my point. 'Several' is not the correct word for "the majority", or even "everyone except one or two people". "... And it's true that you can put your faith in a false religion. So you don't want to have any doubts about this." I don't have any. "when I am tried I shall come forth as gold" Job 23:10. In one of my bibles (catholics) it says "when I am examined..." (maybe the meaning is the same? I'm translating), others agree with yours. Anyway I don't think that's a sign he realized he's a "toy" of those two trascendental beings. He seems to not even ask himself the question much. In the beginning he says "we accept the good that comes from God, why not the bad?". After some time he looks around and says "hey, something's not right here!", then God starts talking. I mean, he didn't need faith, he had God. Talking. To him. Job wasn't depending on feelings in the sense that he was depending on perceptions -- pain. But at some point some judgement musts enter in action, if not you're a robot. And I don't see why Job could not have used emotions for that. You can't compare/apply faith to people. A coach or a parent can tell me to do a thing, and I do it, I don't even question them (as a child), but it's not "that faith", it's infinitely different. With God, you don't know and stop, that's it (the non-explanation). With people, you have a reason. They may even tell you why they're asking you to do something, but still they learned it. But what's more you're implying, it seems, that they're right (and you are right to put faith in them), but that's wrong, as you need to understand what you're doing, not just have faith. Usually that's the aim of those tasks. I wish I explained myself better, but I hope this will do. Just a curiosity: do you take notes while reading/studing the bible? "You can choose your proverbs" The point is that I don't choose proverbs, I choose explanations. Maybe they will not be explanations about life, the universe, and everything, but I can test if they are right. I know that Jesus' kingdom is not of this world. Maybe he's just a green alien. ;P "Those of faith are typically rejected by the world, the world hates them" -- oh come on... that's the catchphrase that rules them all.. "My purpose isn't to make the world love me" but would you say that you can conduct a good life if you're not loved? As long as the bible is written in any human language, it cannot 'define itself'. You need to look at the external world for the definition of things (and words can die, and they did). In the second example (who is greater), I find 'greatness' is not defined. "whosoever will may come" Well, I know I don't want an eternal life. Where should I go, up or down? (supposing I didn't renounce the savior...)

 

 

Luca,

 

Yes the Bible mentions there had been many with a "christ starter set" but only One was The One.

Right now I'm using science as science.  I don't have faith in science to tell me how the world was created for one.

The Bible ends with a caution about adding to it.  "It is finished".

To you Ecclesiastes seems to apply less and less.  You can have that opinion.  

I think "in their time" means God's timing, God's order.  

Ok one thing the devil screwed up (with Adam and Eve's help) was having a garden with no weeds.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.  What God wants is men and women to have faith in Him.  The devil attacks that faith.  

Man has the disadvantage of not knowing what God is doing - but has what God has revealed.  Have faith in that and extrapolate.

The Bible has examples of men and women of faith.  Thankfully I share in their inheritance.

I'm not a scholar on false religions.  

You don't see the need for a salvation - have you ever thought you didn't want something then found it great?

The perfection we have is Jesus Christ.  We are baptized into Christ.  He is perfect.  We fall and get up, sin and repent - continually washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Everyone doesn't get salvation in the end.  "No one comes to the Father except by Me" (Jesus).  

Jesus came from heaven to "show us the Father" (in several dimensions) and "to seek and save the lost".  Only Jesus was able to fulfill the requirements of the Law perfectly.  He was tempted in all respects just like us.

Eve might have for one thing wanted to escape the man's (husband's) authority over her (as God designed) - sound familiar?

The metaphors I use are perfectly clear to me. 

Paul didn't talk about his body as "himself" - he referred to it as a tent.  Tents are fairly mobile homes (actually all homes are mobile).  You don't get the metaphor of your house you live in as compared to your spiritual house you function spiritually in, huh?  I'll try again.  Let's say you knew there was a roof problem up there in a hard uncomfortable spot, and it's leaking some (only when it rains or snows).  Whether you deal with it or not can involve - knowing about it   -   being willing to invest money in hiring somebody to fix it  -   courage to get up there and fix it (if heights are a problem)  - diligence to start taking the steps to get it done -  knowing how to do it.    

These are all things that apply to maintaining your spiritual house.  Your spiritual house is your construction of principles and beliefs you live within on the foundation you have it setting on.  Jesus says if you know what He says and don't do what He says you are building your house on the sand.  The opposite is building on the Rock.  Storms that come against your spiritual house are trials, temptations, rot, whatever.  

We're talking about material things - houses, that's the metaphor.  Your "spiritual house" (faith, knowledge, principles) have to be maintained too.  

To stay focused takes effort, right?  This would be true when you are working on your physical house - it would also be true when you are working on your spiritual house - maintaining right thinking, guarding emotions, learning knowledge, understanding a proverb, a metaphor.  

The "smells of death" is the metaphor.  People hating Jesus and His Words and His people would be the "chair".  

"Heart surgery" is the metaphor as done by the heart surgeon.  "A New Heart" (the spiritual comparison) is a miraculous surgical operation done by God as promised.  You have to have faith to believe in that.  It's called "saving faith" BTW.  

Actually we have totally opposite views on metaphors.  I love metaphors.  Jesus taught in parables.  When He was asked about it He had an answer.  

There is something about life that rises far above all those biological explanations.  That's the part I'm referring to that's beyond the physics of "getting oxygen and pumping blood".  There is this inner life and light, imagination (eternity), conscience,  And in this inner spiritual house we are capable of having Divine Guests.  

Let's call the heart a garden (the metaphor).  If we keep the weeds (sins) pulled - the tomatoes and broccoli can grow (for example things like self control, faith, hope, love).  

No faith doesn't speak to me by feelings.  I'm sure I've made that mistake and probably will again - but faith is different than feelings.  Job felt like crap - but his faith burned bright (Job 23).  

Well, I guess the GPS is yours to sort out.  I have found mine, have no doubts - and I guess you don't want me to repeat.

You could be "so sure" and "so wrong".  I have taken a serious look at Scripture and I'm still taking a serious look at them every day and I believe them.  You have it open to you to check out that leak in your house - afraid of heights?  lazy?  don't want to spend the time $?  I'm trying to help you with this metaphor thing not insult you BTW

I don't know about everybody, how happy they are.  I know however there is no joy like that of knowing Jesus.

I don't get the "wrong reasons for asking God - is there something more" question.

As far as what suffering and trials do for those without faith - in some cases they could bring a person to faith.  In others they could cause malice and bitterness.  All things work together for good to those who love the LORD.

If you think there are only physical factors you are missing out.  

The difference between us is we have a different God.  

Taking every thought captive doesn't mean the emotions are running things.  Thoughts are assessed with respect to the Word of God with the Light of the Holy Spirit helping too (though I can't say how - it's not a verbal thing).  But I try to live each moment in the presence of God - and from the Bible this is how it is, what's happening now.  

It is shown in Job that one can adhere to faith even when all physical satisfactions end.

I think the illustration about "smoking facts" show that knowledge doesn't enable right behavior.  Neither does the message about medical bills.  To make knowledge a god is fairly common - and it makes a lousy one, also it makes for a lot of "what is falsely called knowledge".  

I'll give you a reason a man "needs God" - the presence of a serious enemy.  We have an enemy we can't defeat on our own on any level.  In Christ you can "resist the devil and he will flee from you".  

If you worship your wife as a god rather than worship God and have a wife - you are asking more of the wife than she has to give.  She can't be your god.   She can't supply your every need - even though some songs claim that they're not true.

There exist fools.  I speak from past experience of myself.  

I am not pursuing happiness - I mean it's not my focus.  I want to walk by faith in God and with God - happiness just happens to go along with that. 

One scripture I find easy to follow is "do not make yourself overwise - why should you destroy yourself" - I don't think I'm out of balance.  I don't ever try to balance by sinning though.  Knowing Jesus - that is a room that seems to open exponentially I can't get across to you.  

Jesus promised He is "coming soon".  I believe that without a doubt.  I don't know what problems you're referring to.

The interpretation of the Bible changes?  I study it myself.  I don't see it changing at all.  

So you're going to write a book after you find a thought?  I'm not going to have time to read it.  I think you're deluding yourself - actually trying to be wise as God.

I don't know what "unreachable thought" you were referring to.  

I don't understand your "Other gods?...." paragraph either.

Job didn't have God talking to him for quite a while - that's the faith part I was talking about.

If you came to know God you would have God size reasons to have faith to do what He says.

I take some notes while reading the Bible yes.  Then I end up deleting them.  

Ok, you can choose your explanations.  I'm not a threat to your freedom.  But I am telling you something you don't know that Jesus said, "If the Son of man makes you free you will be free indeed".  

As far as your assessment of "catch phrases" I have faith in what Jesus said about it rather than you.

"Conduct a good life if not loved"?  Yes, the more like Jesus we are the more we will be loved by some and hated by others.  He said "a servant isn't above his Master.  If they hate me they will hate you.  

If you reject Jesus being fairly well read you can read for yourself in the last two chapters of Revelation.  

I worked for a Philosophy chairman whose family was from Luca Italy.  One time when I was doing some remodeling some relatives were visiting from Italy and I got a sample - good.  
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Fonzie
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VINYL WHAT?

luca wrote:
\
Fonzie wrote:
Luca, About the title - Job cried out for an arbitrator between him and God. What he cried out for - we have.
Fonzie wrote:
Luca (A pt 2) A metaphor isn't fake - it's a way of speaking about familiar things to describe things unfamiliar. The senses are represented by faith in Scripture. First, you "hear" the Word of
Fonzie wrote:
Luca, Not sure if you think "teaching" is functioning well today as far as general behavior, "smoking kills" etc. As far as using the word perfect too lightly? (I can't remember the context of this - the garden of Eden?) If it's the garden of Eden read the description. They knew what not to
I get it, the arbitrator thing. But that poor guy didn't came here alone, many say to have been like him. What is the difference between using science and "having faith" in science? Relooking at the answers maybe you mean it as "relying exclusively on it to live"? Keep in mind that science is not about giving a definitive absolute answer (it's just a description - living beings are the ones that act). Prophecy is the word of God, ok. So, couldn't there be any more prophecies? Ecclesiastes maybe applies to men of all times, but to me it seems always less with the passing of the centuries. What Solomon wasn't able to do is simply to explain "why". That's it. Know the "why", and you can solve your problems. Or well, at least you have a possibility. So what do you think "in their time" means? "In the beginning"? An example of a "beautiful" thing the devil screwed up? "He is able to convince people chained in sin that they are free when they're not." Well I was trying to have an example... This is not it, but it's still interesting. No, wait, it's still circular logic, because sin is defined in the bible, right? Also have you came with a reason for which man has to have the disadvantage of not knowing "what God's doing"? Permit me a correction: the bible shows that *some* *ancient* men of a *particular place* were spiritual. I cannot help but say that I don't share their "inheritance". If religion is "any system of behavior that is supposed to earn salvation" then what about religions where there's no salvation or no need for salvation? (Might the answer be "don't care"?) Not only that: I repeat, I still don't see the need for a salvation, in the sense: it seems really silly that we had to do all this road to be saved when we were perfect in the beginning. By proving that perfection is not "bulletproof", we might fall again. And again: why all this playacting when in the end we get salvation? Did we do something to earn it? No, he just gives it. So again: why the need at all to exit from heaven (even if we *supposedly* sinned)? There's something more in the story, instead that just that. Adam and Eve will be more applicable when I will find a sense in it. Laughing out loud Actually, could you tell me why would one wish "to be like God"? Well I may get it wrong but if you use metaphors to speak of things you don't know about, then you are still speaking of something you don't know about. Anyway, let's talk about metaphors, for example the one you quoted, "through sloth the house sinks in and through sloth the roof leaks". If I have a house, I can make a list of the works that needs to be done once in a while. I could see then that this list would contain things that are in other lists, and I could see that this happens for certain places and for certain types of houses. So if I say "I buy a house there, what maintaining would it require?", and there, you have the list. Now, I contend two things: first, we are not houses, we are humans; I mean, we could even (and I think we will) design a house that maintains itself - it just needs electricity. Where would that metaphor end? Should we study history to remember that one century ago houses need maintaining? Second, I don't know what use to make of the word "spiritual" in that phrase ("spiritual houses&quotEye-wink. It seems to me that we're talking about "material" things, things that have a cause and a fulfilment (imagine a "list of things to maintain" built for us - in the end, life is repetitive). I hope you see my point; also I don't think you expected something different from me. I want to see where this thing enters in contact with (our) reality. If you continue to speak by metaphors, altough I might understand what you are saying, I can continue to tell you "you're wrong". When I'll be shown a {chair} instead of {a metaphor for a chair}, then things will happen. Last: what is this thing about metaphors that "smells of death if you don't believe"? Very last: "hating sin: a change of heart" it's not like you undergo a chirurgical operation, so that wording comes because, I think, of a feeling (in the chest area) (or maybe the apparent centrality of the heart), but it doesn't go much further that that. The problem with metaphors, from another point of view, is that they have little meaning: you need interpretation to have result, which means applying knowledge. This alone renders the metaphor useless, from what I see. Could you find some univocal words for describing "the life beyond the physics of getting oxygen and pumping blood"? "Faith is different than feeling." Yes, I never claimed the contrary. You said "faith is like confidence in a person", and I have no doubts about it. Instead, what I said (what I asked about, too) is that faith speaks to you by feelings. Or not? About the efficiency of "submitting to God instead of building a spiritual GPS", well, I think all in all it's not much different. What concerns me are two things: not the efficiency, but the correctness (first we search the truth, *after* that we seek efficiency), and, ABOVE ALL, how can you understand if a morality ("spiritual gps&quotEye-wink is right (so to understand if yours or the God's suggested one is "functioning" and how well -- ignoring the "You'll never be able to come up with the Way on your own" part, obviously). I mean, it's like you are saying "everyone who ever lived that didn't follow God's spiritual gps (obviously after the bible has been compiled) had a faulty morality" and subsequently was... (unhappy?). The "wrong" reasons for asking things to God are told in the bible, so this is circular logic, or is there something more? "God develops faith in us by trials and suffering and our application of faith to them." Ok, but so what do you think it happens without faith? Last: it's not that I "don't ask", but I don't ask to religions. I ask to someone who effectively shows, by my standars, by bringing evidence, that he knows what he is doing. Which I think is the same with you, but probably the difference between us is that I search the explanations in things I can "alter", which are physical things -- and this means, at least as I understand, that man is physical, that behavior is physical, and that all the explanation for it takes in account only physical factors. "To simply know the right thing to do doesn't provide the dynamic to do it" but it provides an opportunity (for example you can understand if what you're doing is correct). What is the difference between us, if not in knowledge? "Once you taste the heavenly gift that is fellowship with the Living Christ you will take every thought captive to avoid any entrance of a threat to it." Yes, so are emotions the mean (as "vehicle&quotEye-wink of faith? I only would add that one probably would need a continued satisfaction to repay the effort and that one adheres to it while it proves to him, considering also social factors. Do you think the "smoking kills" sentence written on things should end all smoking? Probably saying "smoking will force you and everyone else to pay more medical bills (and then make you suffer more until you die)" would have more effect. Smiling Still it probably did a difference for someone. I just hope you don't call two words "teaching"... It's only a motto to try to get emotively/emotionally someone, it doesn't address the reason for which one is smoking. The word 'perfect' in the Eden context is a right example. I read "the description" (multiple times, obviously), but it's too vague. They may have even known "what not to do", but what does it change if you can't know what is right from what isn't? It would make no sense for you. "The Salvation glorifies God and shows man He needs God." Personally I don't feel the need to discuss about the "glorifies God", but probably you'll intuit that I have some problems with the second part. All the "philosophy", the stories in the bible (adam and eve, solomon, exodus, job, whatever), whether they are true or not, are an extra, as they all fall in the circularity that the bible proves itself. But this central argument, this "shows man he needs God", musts manifest in some way. It is not a banal argument, because it takes in account "the fall", so there's some complexity in it, but I (we) still need some hard facts to start with "man needs God", some reasons that make it true. If you say "hey, I need it" so then you believe and then you say "everyone needs it" I'd say you've made a mistake. "you're asking more of it than it has to give and indeed more of it than it is" but wait a minute... it's not just "asking more", in the sense that I don't know if you're implying that first you _can't/don't_ ask something like morality *and then*, given that, you cannot ask "more". Instead about this "more" is this concerning actions? knowledge? I don't understand, in the end, how this could be "making a god something that is not God", it seems a misunderstanding of functions, or terms. "Sometimes what is desired is not discussion but just to parade folly and impress fools." Yes, but I think the discussion should end only if there are no parts that are able to change those objectives. "Correct me from the Word of God - I'm not concerned about pleasing men." Beside the obvious joke about "pleasing women", you seem nonetheless concerned about pleasing yourself. You want to be happy, don't you? And about dishonoring the president, well, here it is (and have been) very dishonorable, so as of now I don't see the problem in it. "Before I was "born anew" there wasn't much light of thought going on" you said you were "uneasy". Would you say that sometimes faith tires you? That you need to "recharge you batteries"? Do you plan to do something else beside "knowing Jesus" in the eternity? ("Jesus is coming"? I mean, you can tell everything about Jesus, but "is coming" is not exactly devoid of problems...) "Yes I experience these absolutes - these things aren't moving" Well the interpretation of the bible changed through epoch, as the understanding of God and Jesus, for example. Does this matter? "I don't know why you would want to spend your life searching for a thought which is out of reach." Because my life, my work, would make it easier for other people to obtain that thought. And in the meantime other advantages for us could come out. What was that "unreachable thought" you were talking about? "Other gods? You have to make that choice yourself." But you are not talking about "choices", you are talking about "mistakes". If you don't follow God's will then you make a mistake. These "choices" seems random, how could you tell one from another? "You don't see the difference between emotions and faith." Again, I have not said that. I said that that is the way faith manifests. I would say that faith is like "conventions" (not as in gathering, but as in agreement). "It seems a little tough for dumb sheep, huh." If it is advantageous for the sheep to understand, then in time the sheep will understand. "Look at Elijah against the 400 prophets of baal. He was right they were wrong." Heh, we would need the version of the other side and a cross-examination to know what happened. Eye-wink "Several have failed - just look at Noah's day." That was my point. 'Several' is not the correct word for "the majority", or even "everyone except one or two people". "... And it's true that you can put your faith in a false religion. So you don't want to have any doubts about this." I don't have any. "when I am tried I shall come forth as gold" Job 23:10. In one of my bibles (catholics) it says "when I am examined..." (maybe the meaning is the same? I'm translating), others agree with yours. Anyway I don't think that's a sign he realized he's a "toy" of those two trascendental beings. He seems to not even ask himself the question much. In the beginning he says "we accept the good that comes from God, why not the bad?". After some time he looks around and says "hey, something's not right here!", then God starts talking. I mean, he didn't need faith, he had God. Talking. To him. Job wasn't depending on feelings in the sense that he was depending on perceptions -- pain. But at some point some judgement musts enter in action, if not you're a robot. And I don't see why Job could not have used emotions for that. You can't compare/apply faith to people. A coach or a parent can tell me to do a thing, and I do it, I don't even question them (as a child), but it's not "that faith", it's infinitely different. With God, you don't know and stop, that's it (the non-explanation). With people, you have a reason. They may even tell you why they're asking you to do something, but still they learned it. But what's more you're implying, it seems, that they're right (and you are right to put faith in them), but that's wrong, as you need to understand what you're doing, not just have faith. Usually that's the aim of those tasks. I wish I explained myself better, but I hope this will do. Just a curiosity: do you take notes while reading/studing the bible? "You can choose your proverbs" The point is that I don't choose proverbs, I choose explanations. Maybe they will not be explanations about life, the universe, and everything, but I can test if they are right. I know that Jesus' kingdom is not of this world. Maybe he's just a green alien. ;P "Those of faith are typically rejected by the world, the world hates them" -- oh come on... that's the catchphrase that rules them all.. "My purpose isn't to make the world love me" but would you say that you can conduct a good life if you're not loved? As long as the bible is written in any human language, it cannot 'define itself'. You need to look at the external world for the definition of things (and words can die, and they did). In the second example (who is greater), I find 'greatness' is not defined. "whosoever will may come" Well, I know I don't want an eternal life. Where should I go, up or down? (supposing I didn't renounce the savior...)

 

 

Luca,

 

Yes the Bible mentions there had been many with a "christ starter set" but only One was The One.

Right now I'm using science as science.  I don't have faith in science to tell me how the world was created for one.

The Bible ends with a caution about adding to it.  "It is finished".

To you Ecclesiastes seems to apply less and less.  You can have that opinion.  

I think "in their time" means God's timing, God's order.  

Ok one thing the devil screwed up (with Adam and Eve's help) was having a garden with no weeds.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.  What God wants is men and women to have faith in Him.  The devil attacks that faith.  

Man has the disadvantage of not knowing what God is doing - but has what God has revealed.  Have faith in that and extrapolate.

The Bible has examples of men and women of faith.  Thankfully I share in their inheritance.

I'm not a scholar on false religions.  

You don't see the need for a salvation - have you ever thought you didn't want something then found it great?

The perfection we have is Jesus Christ.  We are baptized into Christ.  He is perfect.  We fall and get up, sin and repent - continually washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Everyone doesn't get salvation in the end.  "No one comes to the Father except by Me" (Jesus).  

Jesus came from heaven to "show us the Father" (in several dimensions) and "to seek and save the lost".  Only Jesus was able to fulfill the requirements of the Law perfectly.  He was tempted in all respects just like us.

Eve might have for one thing wanted to escape the man's (husband's) authority over her (as God designed) - sound familiar?

The metaphors I use are perfectly clear to me. 

Paul didn't talk about his body as "himself" - he referred to it as a tent.  Tents are fairly mobile homes (actually all homes are mobile).  You don't get the metaphor of your house you live in as compared to your spiritual house you function spiritually in, huh?  I'll try again.  Let's say you knew there was a roof problem up there in a hard uncomfortable spot, and it's leaking some (only when it rains or snows).  Whether you deal with it or not can involve - knowing about it   -   being willing to invest money in hiring somebody to fix it  -   courage to get up there and fix it (if heights are a problem)  - diligence to start taking the steps to get it done -  knowing how to do it.    

These are all things that apply to maintaining your spiritual house.  Your spiritual house is your construction of principles and beliefs you live within on the foundation you have it setting on.  Jesus says if you know what He says and don't do what He says you are building your house on the sand.  The opposite is building on the Rock.  Storms that come against your spiritual house are trials, temptations, rot, whatever.  

We're talking about material things - houses, that's the metaphor.  Your "spiritual house" (faith, knowledge, principles) have to be maintained too.  

To stay focused takes effort, right?  This would be true when you are working on your physical house - it would also be true when you are working on your spiritual house - maintaining right thinking, guarding emotions, learning knowledge, understanding a proverb, a metaphor.  

The "smells of death" is the metaphor.  People hating Jesus and His Words and His people would be the "chair".  

"Heart surgery" is the metaphor as done by the heart surgeon.  "A New Heart" (the spiritual comparison) is a miraculous surgical operation done by God as promised.  You have to have faith to believe in that.  It's called "saving faith" BTW.  

Actually we have totally opposite views on metaphors.  I love metaphors.  Jesus taught in parables.  When He was asked about it He had an answer.  

There is something about life that rises far above all those biological explanations.  That's the part I'm referring to that's beyond the physics of "getting oxygen and pumping blood".  There is this inner life and light, imagination (eternity), conscience,  And in this inner spiritual house we are capable of having Divine Guests.  

Let's call the heart a garden (the metaphor).  If we keep the weeds (sins) pulled - the tomatoes and broccoli can grow (for example things like self control, faith, hope, love).  

No faith doesn't speak to me by feelings.  I'm sure I've made that mistake and probably will again - but faith is different than feelings.  Job felt like crap - but his faith burned bright (Job 23).  

Well, I guess the GPS is yours to sort out.  I have found mine, have no doubts - and I guess you don't want me to repeat.

You could be "so sure" and "so wrong".  I have taken a serious look at Scripture and I'm still taking a serious look at them every day and I believe them.  You have it open to you to check out that leak in your house - afraid of heights?  lazy?  don't want to spend the time $?  I'm trying to help you with this metaphor thing not insult you BTW

I don't know about everybody, how happy they are.  I know however there is no joy like that of knowing Jesus.

I don't get the "wrong reasons for asking God - is there something more" question.

As far as what suffering and trials do for those without faith - in some cases they could bring a person to faith.  In others they could cause malice and bitterness.  All things work together for good to those who love the LORD.

If you think there are only physical factors you are missing out.  

The difference between us is we have a different God.  

Taking every thought captive doesn't mean the emotions are running things.  Thoughts are assessed with respect to the Word of God with the Light of the Holy Spirit helping too (though I can't say how - it's not a verbal thing).  But I try to live each moment in the presence of God - and from the Bible this is how it is, what's happening now.  

It is shown in Job that one can adhere to faith even when all physical satisfactions end.

I think the illustration about "smoking facts" show that knowledge doesn't enable right behavior.  Neither does the message about medical bills.  To make knowledge a god is fairly common - and it makes a lousy one, also it makes for a lot of "what is falsely called knowledge".  

I'll give you a reason a man "needs God" - the presence of a serious enemy.  We have an enemy we can't defeat on our own on any level.  In Christ you can "resist the devil and he will flee from you".  

If you worship your wife as a god rather than worship God and have a wife - you are asking more of the wife than she has to give.  She can't be your god.   She can't supply your every need - even though some songs claim that they're not true.

There exist fools.  I speak from past experience of myself.  

I am not pursuing happiness - I mean it's not my focus.  I want to walk by faith in God and with God - happiness just happens to go along with that. 

One scripture I find easy to follow is "do not make yourself overwise - why should you destroy yourself" - I don't think I'm out of balance.  I don't ever try to balance by sinning though.  Knowing Jesus - that is a room that seems to open exponentially I can't get across to you.  

Jesus promised He is "coming soon".  I believe that without a doubt.  I don't know what problems you're referring to.

The interpretation of the Bible changes?  I study it myself.  I don't see it changing at all.  

So you're going to write a book after you find a thought?  I'm not going to have time to read it.  I think you're deluding yourself - actually trying to be wise as God.

I don't know what "unreachable thought" you were referring to.  

I don't understand your "Other gods?...." paragraph either.

Job didn't have God talking to him for quite a while - that's the faith part I was talking about.

If you came to know God you would have God size reasons to have faith to do what He says.

I take some notes while reading the Bible yes.  Then I end up deleting them.  

Ok, you can choose your explanations.  I'm not a threat to your freedom.  But I am telling you something you don't know that Jesus said, "If the Son of man makes you free you will be free indeed".  

As far as your assessment of "catch phrases" I have faith in what Jesus said about it rather than you.

"Conduct a good life if not loved"?  Yes, the more like Jesus we are the more we will be loved by some and hated by others.  He said "a servant isn't above his Master.  If they hate me they will hate you.  

If you reject Jesus being fairly well read you can read for yourself in the last two chapters of Revelation.  

I worked for a Philosophy chairman whose family was from Luca Italy.  One time when I was doing some remodeling some relatives were visiting from Italy and I got a sample - good.  
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Fonzie
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VINYL WHAT?

luca wrote:
\
Fonzie wrote:
Luca, About the title - Job cried out for an arbitrator between him and God. What he cried out for - we have.
Fonzie wrote:
Luca (A pt 2) A metaphor isn't fake - it's a way of speaking about familiar things to describe things unfamiliar. The senses are represented by faith in Scripture. First, you "hear" the Word of
Fonzie wrote:
Luca, Not sure if you think "teaching" is functioning well today as far as general behavior, "smoking kills" etc. As far as using the word perfect too lightly? (I can't remember the context of this - the garden of Eden?) If it's the garden of Eden read the description. They knew what not to
I get it, the arbitrator thing. But that poor guy didn't came here alone, many say to have been like him. What is the difference between using science and "having faith" in science? Relooking at the answers maybe you mean it as "relying exclusively on it to live"? Keep in mind that science is not about giving a definitive absolute answer (it's just a description - living beings are the ones that act). Prophecy is the word of God, ok. So, couldn't there be any more prophecies? Ecclesiastes maybe applies to men of all times, but to me it seems always less with the passing of the centuries. What Solomon wasn't able to do is simply to explain "why". That's it. Know the "why", and you can solve your problems. Or well, at least you have a possibility. So what do you think "in their time" means? "In the beginning"? An example of a "beautiful" thing the devil screwed up? "He is able to convince people chained in sin that they are free when they're not." Well I was trying to have an example... This is not it, but it's still interesting. No, wait, it's still circular logic, because sin is defined in the bible, right? Also have you came with a reason for which man has to have the disadvantage of not knowing "what God's doing"? Permit me a correction: the bible shows that *some* *ancient* men of a *particular place* were spiritual. I cannot help but say that I don't share their "inheritance". If religion is "any system of behavior that is supposed to earn salvation" then what about religions where there's no salvation or no need for salvation? (Might the answer be "don't care"?) Not only that: I repeat, I still don't see the need for a salvation, in the sense: it seems really silly that we had to do all this road to be saved when we were perfect in the beginning. By proving that perfection is not "bulletproof", we might fall again. And again: why all this playacting when in the end we get salvation? Did we do something to earn it? No, he just gives it. So again: why the need at all to exit from heaven (even if we *supposedly* sinned)? There's something more in the story, instead that just that. Adam and Eve will be more applicable when I will find a sense in it. Laughing out loud Actually, could you tell me why would one wish "to be like God"? Well I may get it wrong but if you use metaphors to speak of things you don't know about, then you are still speaking of something you don't know about. Anyway, let's talk about metaphors, for example the one you quoted, "through sloth the house sinks in and through sloth the roof leaks". If I have a house, I can make a list of the works that needs to be done once in a while. I could see then that this list would contain things that are in other lists, and I could see that this happens for certain places and for certain types of houses. So if I say "I buy a house there, what maintaining would it require?", and there, you have the list. Now, I contend two things: first, we are not houses, we are humans; I mean, we could even (and I think we will) design a house that maintains itself - it just needs electricity. Where would that metaphor end? Should we study history to remember that one century ago houses need maintaining? Second, I don't know what use to make of the word "spiritual" in that phrase ("spiritual houses&quotEye-wink. It seems to me that we're talking about "material" things, things that have a cause and a fulfilment (imagine a "list of things to maintain" built for us - in the end, life is repetitive). I hope you see my point; also I don't think you expected something different from me. I want to see where this thing enters in contact with (our) reality. If you continue to speak by metaphors, altough I might understand what you are saying, I can continue to tell you "you're wrong". When I'll be shown a {chair} instead of {a metaphor for a chair}, then things will happen. Last: what is this thing about metaphors that "smells of death if you don't believe"? Very last: "hating sin: a change of heart" it's not like you undergo a chirurgical operation, so that wording comes because, I think, of a feeling (in the chest area) (or maybe the apparent centrality of the heart), but it doesn't go much further that that. The problem with metaphors, from another point of view, is that they have little meaning: you need interpretation to have result, which means applying knowledge. This alone renders the metaphor useless, from what I see. Could you find some univocal words for describing "the life beyond the physics of getting oxygen and pumping blood"? "Faith is different than feeling." Yes, I never claimed the contrary. You said "faith is like confidence in a person", and I have no doubts about it. Instead, what I said (what I asked about, too) is that faith speaks to you by feelings. Or not? About the efficiency of "submitting to God instead of building a spiritual GPS", well, I think all in all it's not much different. What concerns me are two things: not the efficiency, but the correctness (first we search the truth, *after* that we seek efficiency), and, ABOVE ALL, how can you understand if a morality ("spiritual gps&quotEye-wink is right (so to understand if yours or the God's suggested one is "functioning" and how well -- ignoring the "You'll never be able to come up with the Way on your own" part, obviously). I mean, it's like you are saying "everyone who ever lived that didn't follow God's spiritual gps (obviously after the bible has been compiled) had a faulty morality" and subsequently was... (unhappy?). The "wrong" reasons for asking things to God are told in the bible, so this is circular logic, or is there something more? "God develops faith in us by trials and suffering and our application of faith to them." Ok, but so what do you think it happens without faith? Last: it's not that I "don't ask", but I don't ask to religions. I ask to someone who effectively shows, by my standars, by bringing evidence, that he knows what he is doing. Which I think is the same with you, but probably the difference between us is that I search the explanations in things I can "alter", which are physical things -- and this means, at least as I understand, that man is physical, that behavior is physical, and that all the explanation for it takes in account only physical factors. "To simply know the right thing to do doesn't provide the dynamic to do it" but it provides an opportunity (for example you can understand if what you're doing is correct). What is the difference between us, if not in knowledge? "Once you taste the heavenly gift that is fellowship with the Living Christ you will take every thought captive to avoid any entrance of a threat to it." Yes, so are emotions the mean (as "vehicle&quotEye-wink of faith? I only would add that one probably would need a continued satisfaction to repay the effort and that one adheres to it while it proves to him, considering also social factors. Do you think the "smoking kills" sentence written on things should end all smoking? Probably saying "smoking will force you and everyone else to pay more medical bills (and then make you suffer more until you die)" would have more effect. Smiling Still it probably did a difference for someone. I just hope you don't call two words "teaching"... It's only a motto to try to get emotively/emotionally someone, it doesn't address the reason for which one is smoking. The word 'perfect' in the Eden context is a right example. I read "the description" (multiple times, obviously), but it's too vague. They may have even known "what not to do", but what does it change if you can't know what is right from what isn't? It would make no sense for you. "The Salvation glorifies God and shows man He needs God." Personally I don't feel the need to discuss about the "glorifies God", but probably you'll intuit that I have some problems with the second part. All the "philosophy", the stories in the bible (adam and eve, solomon, exodus, job, whatever), whether they are true or not, are an extra, as they all fall in the circularity that the bible proves itself. But this central argument, this "shows man he needs God", musts manifest in some way. It is not a banal argument, because it takes in account "the fall", so there's some complexity in it, but I (we) still need some hard facts to start with "man needs God", some reasons that make it true. If you say "hey, I need it" so then you believe and then you say "everyone needs it" I'd say you've made a mistake. "you're asking more of it than it has to give and indeed more of it than it is" but wait a minute... it's not just "asking more", in the sense that I don't know if you're implying that first you _can't/don't_ ask something like morality *and then*, given that, you cannot ask "more". Instead about this "more" is this concerning actions? knowledge? I don't understand, in the end, how this could be "making a god something that is not God", it seems a misunderstanding of functions, or terms. "Sometimes what is desired is not discussion but just to parade folly and impress fools." Yes, but I think the discussion should end only if there are no parts that are able to change those objectives. "Correct me from the Word of God - I'm not concerned about pleasing men." Beside the obvious joke about "pleasing women", you seem nonetheless concerned about pleasing yourself. You want to be happy, don't you? And about dishonoring the president, well, here it is (and have been) very dishonorable, so as of now I don't see the problem in it. "Before I was "born anew" there wasn't much light of thought going on" you said you were "uneasy". Would you say that sometimes faith tires you? That you need to "recharge you batteries"? Do you plan to do something else beside "knowing Jesus" in the eternity? ("Jesus is coming"? I mean, you can tell everything about Jesus, but "is coming" is not exactly devoid of problems...) "Yes I experience these absolutes - these things aren't moving" Well the interpretation of the bible changed through epoch, as the understanding of God and Jesus, for example. Does this matter? "I don't know why you would want to spend your life searching for a thought which is out of reach." Because my life, my work, would make it easier for other people to obtain that thought. And in the meantime other advantages for us could come out. What was that "unreachable thought" you were talking about? "Other gods? You have to make that choice yourself." But you are not talking about "choices", you are talking about "mistakes". If you don't follow God's will then you make a mistake. These "choices" seems random, how could you tell one from another? "You don't see the difference between emotions and faith." Again, I have not said that. I said that that is the way faith manifests. I would say that faith is like "conventions" (not as in gathering, but as in agreement). "It seems a little tough for dumb sheep, huh." If it is advantageous for the sheep to understand, then in time the sheep will understand. "Look at Elijah against the 400 prophets of baal. He was right they were wrong." Heh, we would need the version of the other side and a cross-examination to know what happened. Eye-wink "Several have failed - just look at Noah's day." That was my point. 'Several' is not the correct word for "the majority", or even "everyone except one or two people". "... And it's true that you can put your faith in a false religion. So you don't want to have any doubts about this." I don't have any. "when I am tried I shall come forth as gold" Job 23:10. In one of my bibles (catholics) it says "when I am examined..." (maybe the meaning is the same? I'm translating), others agree with yours. Anyway I don't think that's a sign he realized he's a "toy" of those two trascendental beings. He seems to not even ask himself the question much. In the beginning he says "we accept the good that comes from God, why not the bad?". After some time he looks around and says "hey, something's not right here!", then God starts talking. I mean, he didn't need faith, he had God. Talking. To him. Job wasn't depending on feelings in the sense that he was depending on perceptions -- pain. But at some point some judgement musts enter in action, if not you're a robot. And I don't see why Job could not have used emotions for that. You can't compare/apply faith to people. A coach or a parent can tell me to do a thing, and I do it, I don't even question them (as a child), but it's not "that faith", it's infinitely different. With God, you don't know and stop, that's it (the non-explanation). With people, you have a reason. They may even tell you why they're asking you to do something, but still they learned it. But what's more you're implying, it seems, that they're right (and you are right to put faith in them), but that's wrong, as you need to understand what you're doing, not just have faith. Usually that's the aim of those tasks. I wish I explained myself better, but I hope this will do. Just a curiosity: do you take notes while reading/studing the bible? "You can choose your proverbs" The point is that I don't choose proverbs, I choose explanations. Maybe they will not be explanations about life, the universe, and everything, but I can test if they are right. I know that Jesus' kingdom is not of this world. Maybe he's just a green alien. ;P "Those of faith are typically rejected by the world, the world hates them" -- oh come on... that's the catchphrase that rules them all.. "My purpose isn't to make the world love me" but would you say that you can conduct a good life if you're not loved? As long as the bible is written in any human language, it cannot 'define itself'. You need to look at the external world for the definition of things (and words can die, and they did). In the second example (who is greater), I find 'greatness' is not defined. "whosoever will may come" Well, I know I don't want an eternal life. Where should I go, up or down? (supposing I didn't renounce the savior...)

 

 

Luca,

 

Yes the Bible mentions there had been many with a "christ starter set" but only One was The One.

Right now I'm using science as science.  I don't have faith in science to tell me how the world was created for one.

The Bible ends with a caution about adding to it.  "It is finished".

To you Ecclesiastes seems to apply less and less.  You can have that opinion.  

I think "in their time" means God's timing, God's order.  

Ok one thing the devil screwed up (with Adam and Eve's help) was having a garden with no weeds.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.  What God wants is men and women to have faith in Him.  The devil attacks that faith.  

Man has the disadvantage of not knowing what God is doing - but has what God has revealed.  Have faith in that and extrapolate.

The Bible has examples of men and women of faith.  Thankfully I share in their inheritance.

I'm not a scholar on false religions.  

You don't see the need for a salvation - have you ever thought you didn't want something then found it great?

The perfection we have is Jesus Christ.  We are baptized into Christ.  He is perfect.  We fall and get up, sin and repent - continually washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Everyone doesn't get salvation in the end.  "No one comes to the Father except by Me" (Jesus).  

Jesus came from heaven to "show us the Father" (in several dimensions) and "to seek and save the lost".  Only Jesus was able to fulfill the requirements of the Law perfectly.  He was tempted in all respects just like us.

Eve might have for one thing wanted to escape the man's (husband's) authority over her (as God designed) - sound familiar?

The metaphors I use are perfectly clear to me. 

Paul didn't talk about his body as "himself" - he referred to it as a tent.  Tents are fairly mobile homes (actually all homes are mobile).  You don't get the metaphor of your house you live in as compared to your spiritual house you function spiritually in, huh?  I'll try again.  Let's say you knew there was a roof problem up there in a hard uncomfortable spot, and it's leaking some (only when it rains or snows).  Whether you deal with it or not can involve - knowing about it   -   being willing to invest money in hiring somebody to fix it  -   courage to get up there and fix it (if heights are a problem)  - diligence to start taking the steps to get it done -  knowing how to do it.    

These are all things that apply to maintaining your spiritual house.  Your spiritual house is your construction of principles and beliefs you live within on the foundation you have it setting on.  Jesus says if you know what He says and don't do what He says you are building your house on the sand.  The opposite is building on the Rock.  Storms that come against your spiritual house are trials, temptations, rot, whatever.  

We're talking about material things - houses, that's the metaphor.  Your "spiritual house" (faith, knowledge, principles) have to be maintained too.  

To stay focused takes effort, right?  This would be true when you are working on your physical house - it would also be true when you are working on your spiritual house - maintaining right thinking, guarding emotions, learning knowledge, understanding a proverb, a metaphor.  

The "smells of death" is the metaphor.  People hating Jesus and His Words and His people would be the "chair".  

"Heart surgery" is the metaphor as done by the heart surgeon.  "A New Heart" (the spiritual comparison) is a miraculous surgical operation done by God as promised.  You have to have faith to believe in that.  It's called "saving faith" BTW.  

Actually we have totally opposite views on metaphors.  I love metaphors.  Jesus taught in parables.  When He was asked about it He had an answer.  

There is something about life that rises far above all those biological explanations.  That's the part I'm referring to that's beyond the physics of "getting oxygen and pumping blood".  There is this inner life and light, imagination (eternity), conscience,  And in this inner spiritual house we are capable of having Divine Guests.  

Let's call the heart a garden (the metaphor).  If we keep the weeds (sins) pulled - the tomatoes and broccoli can grow (for example things like self control, faith, hope, love).  

No faith doesn't speak to me by feelings.  I'm sure I've made that mistake and probably will again - but faith is different than feelings.  Job felt like crap - but his faith burned bright (Job 23).  

Well, I guess the GPS is yours to sort out.  I have found mine, have no doubts - and I guess you don't want me to repeat.

You could be "so sure" and "so wrong".  I have taken a serious look at Scripture and I'm still taking a serious look at them every day and I believe them.  You have it open to you to check out that leak in your house - afraid of heights?  lazy?  don't want to spend the time $?  I'm trying to help you with this metaphor thing not insult you BTW

I don't know about everybody, how happy they are.  I know however there is no joy like that of knowing Jesus.

I don't get the "wrong reasons for asking God - is there something more" question.

As far as what suffering and trials do for those without faith - in some cases they could bring a person to faith.  In others they could cause malice and bitterness.  All things work together for good to those who love the LORD.

If you think there are only physical factors you are missing out.  

The difference between us is we have a different God.  

Taking every thought captive doesn't mean the emotions are running things.  Thoughts are assessed with respect to the Word of God with the Light of the Holy Spirit helping too (though I can't say how - it's not a verbal thing).  But I try to live each moment in the presence of God - and from the Bible this is how it is, what's happening now.  

It is shown in Job that one can adhere to faith even when all physical satisfactions end.

I think the illustration about "smoking facts" show that knowledge doesn't enable right behavior.  Neither does the message about medical bills.  To make knowledge a god is fairly common - and it makes a lousy one, also it makes for a lot of "what is falsely called knowledge".  

I'll give you a reason a man "needs God" - the presence of a serious enemy.  We have an enemy we can't defeat on our own on any level.  In Christ you can "resist the devil and he will flee from you".  

If you worship your wife as a god rather than worship God and have a wife - you are asking more of the wife than she has to give.  She can't be your god.   She can't supply your every need - even though some songs claim that they're not true.

There exist fools.  I speak from past experience of myself.  

I am not pursuing happiness - I mean it's not my focus.  I want to walk by faith in God and with God - happiness just happens to go along with that. 

One scripture I find easy to follow is "do not make yourself overwise - why should you destroy yourself" - I don't think I'm out of balance.  I don't ever try to balance by sinning though.  Knowing Jesus - that is a room that seems to open exponentially I can't get across to you.  

Jesus promised He is "coming soon".  I believe that without a doubt.  I don't know what problems you're referring to.

The interpretation of the Bible changes?  I study it myself.  I don't see it changing at all.  

So you're going to write a book after you find a thought?  I'm not going to have time to read it.  I think you're deluding yourself - actually trying to be wise as God.

I don't know what "unreachable thought" you were referring to.  

I don't understand your "Other gods?...." paragraph either.

Job didn't have God talking to him for quite a while - that's the faith part I was talking about.

If you came to know God you would have God size reasons to have faith to do what He says.

I take some notes while reading the Bible yes.  Then I end up deleting them.  

Ok, you can choose your explanations.  I'm not a threat to your freedom.  But I am telling you something you don't know that Jesus said, "If the Son of man makes you free you will be free indeed".  

As far as your assessment of "catch phrases" I have faith in what Jesus said about it rather than you.

"Conduct a good life if not loved"?  Yes, the more like Jesus we are the more we will be loved by some and hated by others.  He said "a servant isn't above his Master.  If they hate me they will hate you.  

If you reject Jesus being fairly well read you can read for yourself in the last two chapters of Revelation.  

I worked for a Philosophy chairman whose family was from Luca Italy.  One time when I was doing some remodeling some relatives were visiting from Italy and I got a sample - good.  
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Fonzie
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VINYL WHAT?

luca wrote:
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Fonzie wrote:
Luca, About the title - Job cried out for an arbitrator between him and God. What he cried out for - we have.
Fonzie wrote:
Luca (A pt 2) A metaphor isn't fake - it's a way of speaking about familiar things to describe things unfamiliar. The senses are represented by faith in Scripture. First, you "hear" the Word of
Fonzie wrote:
Luca, Not sure if you think "teaching" is functioning well today as far as general behavior, "smoking kills" etc. As far as using the word perfect too lightly? (I can't remember the context of this - the garden of Eden?) If it's the garden of Eden read the description. They knew what not to
I get it, the arbitrator thing. But that poor guy didn't came here alone, many say to have been like him. What is the difference between using science and "having faith" in science? Relooking at the answers maybe you mean it as "relying exclusively on it to live"? Keep in mind that science is not about giving a definitive absolute answer (it's just a description - living beings are the ones that act). Prophecy is the word of God, ok. So, couldn't there be any more prophecies? Ecclesiastes maybe applies to men of all times, but to me it seems always less with the passing of the centuries. What Solomon wasn't able to do is simply to explain "why". That's it. Know the "why", and you can solve your problems. Or well, at least you have a possibility. So what do you think "in their time" means? "In the beginning"? An example of a "beautiful" thing the devil screwed up? "He is able to convince people chained in sin that they are free when they're not." Well I was trying to have an example... This is not it, but it's still interesting. No, wait, it's still circular logic, because sin is defined in the bible, right? Also have you came with a reason for which man has to have the disadvantage of not knowing "what God's doing"? Permit me a correction: the bible shows that *some* *ancient* men of a *particular place* were spiritual. I cannot help but say that I don't share their "inheritance". If religion is "any system of behavior that is supposed to earn salvation" then what about religions where there's no salvation or no need for salvation? (Might the answer be "don't care"?) Not only that: I repeat, I still don't see the need for a salvation, in the sense: it seems really silly that we had to do all this road to be saved when we were perfect in the beginning. By proving that perfection is not "bulletproof", we might fall again. And again: why all this playacting when in the end we get salvation? Did we do something to earn it? No, he just gives it. So again: why the need at all to exit from heaven (even if we *supposedly* sinned)? There's something more in the story, instead that just that. Adam and Eve will be more applicable when I will find a sense in it. Laughing out loud Actually, could you tell me why would one wish "to be like God"? Well I may get it wrong but if you use metaphors to speak of things you don't know about, then you are still speaking of something you don't know about. Anyway, let's talk about metaphors, for example the one you quoted, "through sloth the house sinks in and through sloth the roof leaks". If I have a house, I can make a list of the works that needs to be done once in a while. I could see then that this list would contain things that are in other lists, and I could see that this happens for certain places and for certain types of houses. So if I say "I buy a house there, what maintaining would it require?", and there, you have the list. Now, I contend two things: first, we are not houses, we are humans; I mean, we could even (and I think we will) design a house that maintains itself - it just needs electricity. Where would that metaphor end? Should we study history to remember that one century ago houses need maintaining? Second, I don't know what use to make of the word "spiritual" in that phrase ("spiritual houses&quotEye-wink. It seems to me that we're talking about "material" things, things that have a cause and a fulfilment (imagine a "list of things to maintain" built for us - in the end, life is repetitive). I hope you see my point; also I don't think you expected something different from me. I want to see where this thing enters in contact with (our) reality. If you continue to speak by metaphors, altough I might understand what you are saying, I can continue to tell you "you're wrong". When I'll be shown a {chair} instead of {a metaphor for a chair}, then things will happen. Last: what is this thing about metaphors that "smells of death if you don't believe"? Very last: "hating sin: a change of heart" it's not like you undergo a chirurgical operation, so that wording comes because, I think, of a feeling (in the chest area) (or maybe the apparent centrality of the heart), but it doesn't go much further that that. The problem with metaphors, from another point of view, is that they have little meaning: you need interpretation to have result, which means applying knowledge. This alone renders the metaphor useless, from what I see. Could you find some univocal words for describing "the life beyond the physics of getting oxygen and pumping blood"? "Faith is different than feeling." Yes, I never claimed the contrary. You said "faith is like confidence in a person", and I have no doubts about it. Instead, what I said (what I asked about, too) is that faith speaks to you by feelings. Or not? About the efficiency of "submitting to God instead of building a spiritual GPS", well, I think all in all it's not much different. What concerns me are two things: not the efficiency, but the correctness (first we search the truth, *after* that we seek efficiency), and, ABOVE ALL, how can you understand if a morality ("spiritual gps&quotEye-wink is right (so to understand if yours or the God's suggested one is "functioning" and how well -- ignoring the "You'll never be able to come up with the Way on your own" part, obviously). I mean, it's like you are saying "everyone who ever lived that didn't follow God's spiritual gps (obviously after the bible has been compiled) had a faulty morality" and subsequently was... (unhappy?). The "wrong" reasons for asking things to God are told in the bible, so this is circular logic, or is there something more? "God develops faith in us by trials and suffering and our application of faith to them." Ok, but so what do you think it happens without faith? Last: it's not that I "don't ask", but I don't ask to religions. I ask to someone who effectively shows, by my standars, by bringing evidence, that he knows what he is doing. Which I think is the same with you, but probably the difference between us is that I search the explanations in things I can "alter", which are physical things -- and this means, at least as I understand, that man is physical, that behavior is physical, and that all the explanation for it takes in account only physical factors. "To simply know the right thing to do doesn't provide the dynamic to do it" but it provides an opportunity (for example you can understand if what you're doing is correct). What is the difference between us, if not in knowledge? "Once you taste the heavenly gift that is fellowship with the Living Christ you will take every thought captive to avoid any entrance of a threat to it." Yes, so are emotions the mean (as "vehicle&quotEye-wink of faith? I only would add that one probably would need a continued satisfaction to repay the effort and that one adheres to it while it proves to him, considering also social factors. Do you think the "smoking kills" sentence written on things should end all smoking? Probably saying "smoking will force you and everyone else to pay more medical bills (and then make you suffer more until you die)" would have more effect. Smiling Still it probably did a difference for someone. I just hope you don't call two words "teaching"... It's only a motto to try to get emotively/emotionally someone, it doesn't address the reason for which one is smoking. The word 'perfect' in the Eden context is a right example. I read "the description" (multiple times, obviously), but it's too vague. They may have even known "what not to do", but what does it change if you can't know what is right from what isn't? It would make no sense for you. "The Salvation glorifies God and shows man He needs God." Personally I don't feel the need to discuss about the "glorifies God", but probably you'll intuit that I have some problems with the second part. All the "philosophy", the stories in the bible (adam and eve, solomon, exodus, job, whatever), whether they are true or not, are an extra, as they all fall in the circularity that the bible proves itself. But this central argument, this "shows man he needs God", musts manifest in some way. It is not a banal argument, because it takes in account "the fall", so there's some complexity in it, but I (we) still need some hard facts to start with "man needs God", some reasons that make it true. If you say "hey, I need it" so then you believe and then you say "everyone needs it" I'd say you've made a mistake. "you're asking more of it than it has to give and indeed more of it than it is" but wait a minute... it's not just "asking more", in the sense that I don't know if you're implying that first you _can't/don't_ ask something like morality *and then*, given that, you cannot ask "more". Instead about this "more" is this concerning actions? knowledge? I don't understand, in the end, how this could be "making a god something that is not God", it seems a misunderstanding of functions, or terms. "Sometimes what is desired is not discussion but just to parade folly and impress fools." Yes, but I think the discussion should end only if there are no parts that are able to change those objectives. "Correct me from the Word of God - I'm not concerned about pleasing men." Beside the obvious joke about "pleasing women", you seem nonetheless concerned about pleasing yourself. You want to be happy, don't you? And about dishonoring the president, well, here it is (and have been) very dishonorable, so as of now I don't see the problem in it. "Before I was "born anew" there wasn't much light of thought going on" you said you were "uneasy". Would you say that sometimes faith tires you? That you need to "recharge you batteries"? Do you plan to do something else beside "knowing Jesus" in the eternity? ("Jesus is coming"? I mean, you can tell everything about Jesus, but "is coming" is not exactly devoid of problems...) "Yes I experience these absolutes - these things aren't moving" Well the interpretation of the bible changed through epoch, as the understanding of God and Jesus, for example. Does this matter? "I don't know why you would want to spend your life searching for a thought which is out of reach." Because my life, my work, would make it easier for other people to obtain that thought. And in the meantime other advantages for us could come out. What was that "unreachable thought" you were talking about? "Other gods? You have to make that choice yourself." But you are not talking about "choices", you are talking about "mistakes". If you don't follow God's will then you make a mistake. These "choices" seems random, how could you tell one from another? "You don't see the difference between emotions and faith." Again, I have not said that. I said that that is the way faith manifests. I would say that faith is like "conventions" (not as in gathering, but as in agreement). "It seems a little tough for dumb sheep, huh." If it is advantageous for the sheep to understand, then in time the sheep will understand. "Look at Elijah against the 400 prophets of baal. He was right they were wrong." Heh, we would need the version of the other side and a cross-examination to know what happened. Eye-wink "Several have failed - just look at Noah's day." That was my point. 'Several' is not the correct word for "the majority", or even "everyone except one or two people". "... And it's true that you can put your faith in a false religion. So you don't want to have any doubts about this." I don't have any. "when I am tried I shall come forth as gold" Job 23:10. In one of my bibles (catholics) it says "when I am examined..." (maybe the meaning is the same? I'm translating), others agree with yours. Anyway I don't think that's a sign he realized he's a "toy" of those two trascendental beings. He seems to not even ask himself the question much. In the beginning he says "we accept the good that comes from God, why not the bad?". After some time he looks around and says "hey, something's not right here!", then God starts talking. I mean, he didn't need faith, he had God. Talking. To him. Job wasn't depending on feelings in the sense that he was depending on perceptions -- pain. But at some point some judgement musts enter in action, if not you're a robot. And I don't see why Job could not have used emotions for that. You can't compare/apply faith to people. A coach or a parent can tell me to do a thing, and I do it, I don't even question them (as a child), but it's not "that faith", it's infinitely different. With God, you don't know and stop, that's it (the non-explanation). With people, you have a reason. They may even tell you why they're asking you to do something, but still they learned it. But what's more you're implying, it seems, that they're right (and you are right to put faith in them), but that's wrong, as you need to understand what you're doing, not just have faith. Usually that's the aim of those tasks. I wish I explained myself better, but I hope this will do. Just a curiosity: do you take notes while reading/studing the bible? "You can choose your proverbs" The point is that I don't choose proverbs, I choose explanations. Maybe they will not be explanations about life, the universe, and everything, but I can test if they are right. I know that Jesus' kingdom is not of this world. Maybe he's just a green alien. ;P "Those of faith are typically rejected by the world, the world hates them" -- oh come on... that's the catchphrase that rules them all.. "My purpose isn't to make the world love me" but would you say that you can conduct a good life if you're not loved? As long as the bible is written in any human language, it cannot 'define itself'. You need to look at the external world for the definition of things (and words can die, and they did). In the second example (who is greater), I find 'greatness' is not defined. "whosoever will may come" Well, I know I don't want an eternal life. Where should I go, up or down? (supposing I didn't renounce the savior...)

 

 

Luca,

 

Yes the Bible mentions there had been many with a "christ starter set" but only One was The One.

Right now I'm using science as science.  I don't have faith in science to tell me how the world was created for one.

The Bible ends with a caution about adding to it.  "It is finished".

To you Ecclesiastes seems to apply less and less.  You can have that opinion.  

I think "in their time" means God's timing, God's order.  

Ok one thing the devil screwed up (with Adam and Eve's help) was having a garden with no weeds.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.  What God wants is men and women to have faith in Him.  The devil attacks that faith.  

Man has the disadvantage of not knowing what God is doing - but has what God has revealed.  Have faith in that and extrapolate.

The Bible has examples of men and women of faith.  Thankfully I share in their inheritance.

I'm not a scholar on false religions.  

You don't see the need for a salvation - have you ever thought you didn't want something then found it great?

The perfection we have is Jesus Christ.  We are baptized into Christ.  He is perfect.  We fall and get up, sin and repent - continually washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Everyone doesn't get salvation in the end.  "No one comes to the Father except by Me" (Jesus).  

Jesus came from heaven to "show us the Father" (in several dimensions) and "to seek and save the lost".  Only Jesus was able to fulfill the requirements of the Law perfectly.  He was tempted in all respects just like us.

Eve might have for one thing wanted to escape the man's (husband's) authority over her (as God designed) - sound familiar?

The metaphors I use are perfectly clear to me. 

Paul didn't talk about his body as "himself" - he referred to it as a tent.  Tents are fairly mobile homes (actually all homes are mobile).  You don't get the metaphor of your house you live in as compared to your spiritual house you function spiritually in, huh?  I'll try again.  Let's say you knew there was a roof problem up there in a hard uncomfortable spot, and it's leaking some (only when it rains or snows).  Whether you deal with it or not can involve - knowing about it   -   being willing to invest money in hiring somebody to fix it  -   courage to get up there and fix it (if heights are a problem)  - diligence to start taking the steps to get it done -  knowing how to do it.    

These are all things that apply to maintaining your spiritual house.  Your spiritual house is your construction of principles and beliefs you live within on the foundation you have it setting on.  Jesus says if you know what He says and don't do what He says you are building your house on the sand.  The opposite is building on the Rock.  Storms that come against your spiritual house are trials, temptations, rot, whatever.  

We're talking about material things - houses, that's the metaphor.  Your "spiritual house" (faith, knowledge, principles) have to be maintained too.  

To stay focused takes effort, right?  This would be true when you are working on your physical house - it would also be true when you are working on your spiritual house - maintaining right thinking, guarding emotions, learning knowledge, understanding a proverb, a metaphor.  

The "smells of death" is the metaphor.  People hating Jesus and His Words and His people would be the "chair".  

"Heart surgery" is the metaphor as done by the heart surgeon.  "A New Heart" (the spiritual comparison) is a miraculous surgical operation done by God as promised.  You have to have faith to believe in that.  It's called "saving faith" BTW.  

Actually we have totally opposite views on metaphors.  I love metaphors.  Jesus taught in parables.  When He was asked about it He had an answer.  

There is something about life that rises far above all those biological explanations.  That's the part I'm referring to that's beyond the physics of "getting oxygen and pumping blood".  There is this inner life and light, imagination (eternity), conscience,  And in this inner spiritual house we are capable of having Divine Guests.  

Let's call the heart a garden (the metaphor).  If we keep the weeds (sins) pulled - the tomatoes and broccoli can grow (for example things like self control, faith, hope, love).  

No faith doesn't speak to me by feelings.  I'm sure I've made that mistake and probably will again - but faith is different than feelings.  Job felt like crap - but his faith burned bright (Job 23).  

Well, I guess the GPS is yours to sort out.  I have found mine, have no doubts - and I guess you don't want me to repeat.

You could be "so sure" and "so wrong".  I have taken a serious look at Scripture and I'm still taking a serious look at them every day and I believe them.  You have it open to you to check out that leak in your house - afraid of heights?  lazy?  don't want to spend the time $?  I'm trying to help you with this metaphor thing not insult you BTW

I don't know about everybody, how happy they are.  I know however there is no joy like that of knowing Jesus.

I don't get the "wrong reasons for asking God - is there something more" question.

As far as what suffering and trials do for those without faith - in some cases they could bring a person to faith.  In others they could cause malice and bitterness.  All things work together for good to those who love the LORD.

If you think there are only physical factors you are missing out.  

The difference between us is we have a different God.  

Taking every thought captive doesn't mean the emotions are running things.  Thoughts are assessed with respect to the Word of God with the Light of the Holy Spirit helping too (though I can't say how - it's not a verbal thing).  But I try to live each moment in the presence of God - and from the Bible this is how it is, what's happening now.  

It is shown in Job that one can adhere to faith even when all physical satisfactions end.

I think the illustration about "smoking facts" show that knowledge doesn't enable right behavior.  Neither does the message about medical bills.  To make knowledge a god is fairly common - and it makes a lousy one, also it makes for a lot of "what is falsely called knowledge".  

I'll give you a reason a man "needs God" - the presence of a serious enemy.  We have an enemy we can't defeat on our own on any level.  In Christ you can "resist the devil and he will flee from you".  

If you worship your wife as a god rather than worship God and have a wife - you are asking more of the wife than she has to give.  She can't be your god.   She can't supply your every need - even though some songs claim that they're not true.

There exist fools.  I speak from past experience of myself.  

I am not pursuing happiness - I mean it's not my focus.  I want to walk by faith in God and with God - happiness just happens to go along with that. 

One scripture I find easy to follow is "do not make yourself overwise - why should you destroy yourself" - I don't think I'm out of balance.  I don't ever try to balance by sinning though.  Knowing Jesus - that is a room that seems to open exponentially I can't get across to you.  

Jesus promised He is "coming soon".  I believe that without a doubt.  I don't know what problems you're referring to.

The interpretation of the Bible changes?  I study it myself.  I don't see it changing at all.  

So you're going to write a book after you find a thought?  I'm not going to have time to read it.  I think you're deluding yourself - actually trying to be wise as God.

I don't know what "unreachable thought" you were referring to.  

I don't understand your "Other gods?...." paragraph either.

Job didn't have God talking to him for quite a while - that's the faith part I was talking about.

If you came to know God you would have God size reasons to have faith to do what He says.

I take some notes while reading the Bible yes.  Then I end up deleting them.  

Ok, you can choose your explanations.  I'm not a threat to your freedom.  But I am telling you something you don't know that Jesus said, "If the Son of man makes you free you will be free indeed".  

As far as your assessment of "catch phrases" I have faith in what Jesus said about it rather than you.

"Conduct a good life if not loved"?  Yes, the more like Jesus we are the more we will be loved by some and hated by others.  He said "a servant isn't above his Master.  If they hate me they will hate you.  

If you reject Jesus being fairly well read you can read for yourself in the last two chapters of Revelation.  

I worked for a Philosophy chairman whose family was from Luca Italy.  One time when I was doing some remodeling some relatives were visiting from Italy and cooking I got a sample - good.  
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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No need to repeat 4 times,

No need to repeat 4 times, they are all identical Eye-wink

 


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SAME QUESTION - ONE ANSWER

luca wrote:

No need to repeat 4 times, they are all identical Eye-wink

 

 

Luca,

 

I've just tried to make my answer clear to you.  You ask for more explanation.  I think you said not to worry about too much detail.  

But actually there is just One Answer - "believe in Jesus and live".  It pleases the fleshly side of men to trust in things like science, ritual, money, visible forms - but to "believe in Jesus" attacks the pride of men.  It involves a letting go of one thing and taking hold of the gospel with the grip of faith.  

You gave it a try, and stalled out and crashed.  Remember the three rules of sailing - "keep the nose down", "keep the nose down" and "keep the nose down".  Maybe you only applied the first rule then gave up; anyway, perseverance is needed to get beyond just "knowing enough to make yourself miserable".  Perseverance is needed in every valuable pursuit - why should I apologize that it takes a lot of sailing to become a sailor (even though you can learn the principles in a day).  

And what about playing a guitar?  Sure, you can learn 3 chords in an hour then get discouraged and give up like several here on the atheist forum who say they've given up faith in Jesus and all chime in honoring each other for such a wonderful decision though they don't have the slightest idea what they gave up!  

You never experienced walking by faith in Christ - you just submitted to some forms but you didn't put your whole heart, soul and mind in faith in Jesus and His Word?  So don't speak against what you never understood or experienced.  Now, if you did experience walking by faith, tasted the heavenly gift and then gave it up - the news is bad  (Hebrews 6.1-8).

 

Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus       search youtube

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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white lion

Fonzie wrote:
luca wrote:
No need to repeat 4 times, they are all identical Eye-wink
Luca,

 

I've just tried to make my answer clear to you.  You ask for more explanation.  I think you said not to worry about too much detail.

What? I only said that you posted the answer 4 times, you probably just clicked the "post comment" 4 times while maybe the forum was "halted" and so the same message appeared 4 times (3127-8-9 and 3130).

Fonzie wrote:
You gave it a try, and stalled out and crashed.

???

Fonzie wrote:
So don't speak against what you never understood or experienced.

(remember it's the same for you)

Fonzie wrote:
Now, if you did experience walking by faith, tasted the heavenly gift and then gave it up - the news is bad  (Hebrews 6.1-8).

It happens...

Fonzie wrote:
Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus       search youtube

Too simplicistic. He, like you, doesn't understand that what he's saying is not really religion, he's just criticizing his "neighbourhood", what he sees that is "bad". It really takes time and knowledge to analyze what is really happening in what he's saying. An example is that that words don't apply to me, because I live not only in a different place, but even in another continent. I really think he doesn't know what he's arguing about. And it's easy to show: what is Jesus without religion? what is faith without religion? But maybe we'll arrive to discuss this, who knows.


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title forgotting

Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

 

Yes the Bible mentions there had been many with a "christ starter set" but only One was The One.

Right now I'm using science as science.  I don't have faith in science to tell me how the world was created for one.

The Bible ends with a caution about adding to it.  "It is finished".

To you Ecclesiastes seems to apply less and less.  You can have that opinion.  

I think "in their time" means God's timing, God's order.  

Ok one thing the devil screwed up (with Adam and Eve's help) was having a garden with no weeds.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.  What God wants is men and women to have faith in Him.  The devil attacks that faith.  

Man has the disadvantage of not knowing what God is doing - but has what God has revealed.  Have faith in that and extrapolate.

The Bible has examples of men and women of faith.  Thankfully I share in their inheritance.

I'm not a scholar on false religions.  

You don't see the need for a salvation - have you ever thought you didn't want something then found it great?

...

The many "christ starter set" teaches that there's no need for the "One" to exist to acknowledge "The One".

For "science to tell me how the world was created for one" do you mean our world as Earth or "our world" as "universe"?

My opinion about Ecclesiastes is an opinion, but do you think that your opinion is an opinion?

The 'weed' in "a garden with no weeds" is sin, right?
So what is your idea about "the devil screwed up the garden" (it was only a talking snake, apparently)? Was is what God wanted?

Not in faith = in sin, but what "faith" adds, beyond the simple word itself? What would change between no faith but obeying/submissing and obeying/submissing with faith?

Extrapolating from "what God has revealed" obviously leaded to many misunderstandings. In fact, how could one say to be able to extrapolate correctly? I mean, theorically you're right, but evidently in doing that you have to ignore millennia of theology. Pragmatically things are not so direct.

You're not a scholar on false religions, and neither am I Eye-wink

It happened that I liked things I thought I didn't want, but this is the classical problems: we're talking about emotions. Is what is right being right and so it must be done or are emotions a meter of judgment?
So I speak about "what are the the consequences that manifest"?

The 'perfection' of Jesus is another 'perfection' that must be... I mean, some attributes are said to be perfect of him, but saying 'perfect' in a so not specific way means that he was "perfectly perfect", so perfect in every way, but this doesn't even make sense... Or maybe I'm missing the point...
Would you tell me I'm wrong if I say that having I no evidence about Jesus I have to consider him only a character in the new testament and not a real person? Do you need faith for that?

Well, to say that I hope the metaphors you use are clear to yourself is the least... But were they crystal clear from the beginning? Or it took hours of reading, testing, what else, to see the meanings in them? Because if it's the second option, then you can't blame me for having a low opinion of metaphors...

Eve wanted to escape Adam's authority... after the fact. What are you saying?

I think I said that I "comprehend" the metaphor physical house/spiritual house. I only explained in what they are different, because they are different. The problem being: could you speak about the spiritual without delegating to metaphors?
Not only that: I always said that the problem with metaphors (and in general with religious people) is oversemplifying things: an example in this case is: if there's this roof problem in a hard uncomfortable spot and the responsible did not fix it, then why he did not act? You are assuming *a lot* of things, of conditions.

Why people hating Jesus would be the "chair"? Now, you should be clear of what you mean with "hate", hate as in *really* hating or just a "not adhering/abiding" (am I a "hater" by your standard?), but put that aside for a moment. Instead, by saying "chair" I think you meant the "hard facts" point from my posts... If that's correct, then hating X shows what, that X is right? Or maybe it's the reverse, X is assumed to be right, "so" it's hated?

About the "new heart", do you think that having "another faith" could "change your heart" too?

We have totally opposite views on metapors... and on anything else.
Jesus taught in parables... and it's obviously a bad thing because they could be so extreme in their interpretation that often they shape like water in a container.

Why "inner life and light, imagination (eternity), conscience" are "something about life that rises far above all those biological explanations"? They are intended as a manifestation of our biology. If our biology was different, they would be different.
Second: what property of the "inner spiritual house" is different from other things in the mind?

"Let's call the heart a garden (the metaphor)." Very funny :| The heart *is* a metaphor in itself, so it's a metaphor of a metaphor... Why not a triple metaphor? Let's call the garden "a car"... Then we compare the car to the house, metaphor^4. Beyond every limits. We could even make a 'recursive metaphor' comparing then house to our "spiritual house". Think of all the possibilities.
Anyway it's the classical thing over and over: simplifying things. You remove 'the sins', then 'self control, faith, hope, love' grow. Well, what is sin? What is self control? What is faith? What is hope? What is love? I am not saying that I cannot totally understand this, but there are too much traditions and customaries and too little definitions/facts on which base every argument. It's like politics.

Again, you say "faith doesn't speak to me by feelings", but later your words show that what you mean is "faith is different than feelings". So I tell you another time: I never said faith is feelings, I only say that faith spekas by feelings. If not, what are the other manners by which faith makes itself present to you? Thankfully I have been sufficiently clear, this time.
In fact, it isn't specifically negative or positive feeling bad or good for faith, but it matters when those feelings are caused by faith, when they are directly related to it.
Another thing, about the thoughts "assessed with respect to the Word of God eccetera": would you say that these thought are based entirely on what's written in the bible, or do you think that a believer has something more that it's not in there?

"... and I guess you don't want me to repeat"
When it's not necessary, no. I understood that part of your life, so repeating feels like not answering (because I already know that what you would have just repeated).

"I'm trying to help you with this metaphor thing not insult you BTW" What insult?
Anyway the problem is I already know something that goes deeper than the bible does, and it is a big obstacle for accepting not only the bible, but every sacred text, every tradition, every philosophy (although some are interesting, like language philosophy).
In the end "you could be so sure and so wrong", yes, but at the moment it seems not, and obviously one has to show me where I'm wrong, if not well I take my knowledge with doubt, but in the meantime I apply it. There's no other way I ever heard of.

"I know however there is no joy like that of knowing Jesus."
Yes, but you always did knew Jesus (or at least I think from as early as you remember), so how can you know what is being without?

"I don't get the "wrong reasons for asking God - is there something more" question."
Well you do remember the "wrong reasons", no? Asking one million dollars, asking asking asking. But then, isn't what is wrong defined in the bible as it is what is good? This is circular logic because it's like a tautology, it's like saying "it's wrong because it's wrong".

Suffering and trials are extremes that can change radically what we think, but to say "all things work together for good to those who love the LORD" is just (empty) words, if you can't demonstrate it. Sorry.

I 'miss an experience or lose an opportunity' by taking in account only physical factors? It's not my fault. I have not heard of any not physical factors that can act in our reality with causality, and so how can I build my life on that? If you are aware of one of them, one which has been investigated and is repeatable, then I sure would like to know.

How could you say we have different gods? If your god exists, then there is only one. I never found anything as "a god".

Job: keep in mind two things: first, the story says God spoke to him; second: the physical satisfactions ended *but* for a limited (although probably pretty long for him) time.

Please, "smoking kills" is not "knowledge". The "medical bills" was sort of a joke. Also I said that knowledge doesn't change directly your behavior, I only said it can tell you you're wrong. The behavior may not change because of other factors, usually the environment.
What do you mean for "what is falsely called knowledge"?

Can you show how we can't defeat this 'serious enemy' on any level?

Aren't you extending your past experience as a "fool" to other people undeservedly?

As a wife can't be a god (and the songs that claim a woman can fill every your needs are just songs made for money), every god people narrate of is not apparently acting in this world. One. But two, most important, while I know what you mean by "God supply our needs", I don't think it makes sense.

"Knowing Jesus - that is a room that seems to open exponentially I can't get across to you."
What?

The problems about Jesus that should be coming soon are obvious: it's almost two thousand years he was supposed to come, and he never came. I think it's safe to say that we will not see the coming, and I'm not saying this malignantly. You can look at the 'Millennialism' page on wikipedia, if you wish. Or look at the difference between the various confessions' parousia.

Excuse me, in what frame of time are you saying "I don't see the interpretation of the bible changing"?
Interpretation... Tell me what you think about homosexuality: "I was born homosexual, so God wanted me like this"?

"So you're going to write a book after you find a thought?" What?
" - actually trying to be wise as God" No, don't worry about that.

In the "other gods" paragraph I'm saying two things:
-that 'choice' doesn't seem to me the correct word, when one way is correct and the other is a big mistake which will be punished; I don't know even why there should be a choice;
-the 'choice' about following a god/religion seems random in the sense that people all around the world don't adhere to christianity by merely showing it to them; instead, they follow the religion which is tied to the place, to the customs of the place.

What the word 'free' in "If the Son of man makes you free you will be free indeed" means?

"As far as your assessment of "catch phrases" I have faith in what Jesus said about it rather than you."
Haha, ok, but it remains a catchphrase. Until you show me some proof that "those of faith are hated". Because I could say that muslims, being probably the most hated by the world right now, are the ones with the highest faith.
Always regarding this matter, I have not said "be like Jesus, loved by some and hated by others", I said "not loved" full stop. Not being loved. By anyone. In that situation, do you think you could live a decent life?

I don't think I have to fear Revelation.

Sure, the italian cuisine is usually good, although I am not of "big mouth". Apart from that, Italy has many many problems. Instead, I dont't know what this thing with english/american people writing I with a capital i. In italian there isn't this habit. It makes appear english people a bit egocentric, for me.


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Let me get my hip waders, the bullshit is getting deep.

The bible is just a cobbled together collection of poorly edited fictions. Revelation made the cut by one vote, and for the writer to say 'it is finished' is the height of presumptive arrogance, as the book itself had not been accumulated in any form.
That being said, your faith is a mental defect, a form of cognitive dissonance and a willful attempt to avoid evidence and ignore the utter lack of supporting evidence. You can expound on the book all you wish, it's just a book. The opinions of a group of superstitious primitives means little. Unless you can show real evidence that an invisible, intangible sentience exists, I can dismiss your claims utterly. There is no god because there is no reason to suppose that such a thing exists. A natural, non magical universe is the only default.

LC >;-}>


 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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...In the pastor’s chamber It blathered for Its feast, 
 They had stabbed it with their steely dans but just could not starve the Beast...


Filo Soft emerged from the fringe to take his own stab, heedless of the Last Universal Common Ancestor’s warnings. Brazenly he asked why ought he favour discretion and seek guidance from the venerable Mouse, yet refused to consult the annals where the answers to his questions lay.   

L.U.C.A. for its part kept shoveling copious amounts of simple carbs into the Troll's gaping maw.  This was enough to keep Its menopausal motor croaking along, with only the occasional need for a shot of protein, as any visitor was more than happy to provide.

Little did they realize that any decent open-source trollgarithm could provide the same result, with far greater lithium efficiency:

Those who would deny the bible as the word of God are living a cobbled together fiction.

I will make the cut for Heaven by one vote -- from Jesus.

God said "it is finished". Truth is not arrogance.

Jesus is the only evidence anyone needs, and the Cross is the evidence that supports it.

Only nothing is invisible and intangible. But god is everything, and you can't dismiss god.

You believe in the magic of science, but I choose god's default judgment.


There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


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If one cannot prove

Fonzie wrote:

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 

JC or god, one is not a Christian. That's what Christianity is about,, a showing of what God is and isn't. OR- What one accepts as God. One need be careful;l using the term "God" as it can cover quite a bit of territory. You have to specify What God is to "you". If you are correct and/or show reason for you choice od "what" Gos is then you may benefit others from you decision, that is, if another/others agree. Just merely to express "God" one may as well follow air.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.


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Anonymouse wrote:No need to

Anonymouse wrote:

No need to speak with me about anything. I don't own this thread. I just thought it was idiotic to keep a thread alive where a repeat troll just keeps repeating the same questions for years, ignoring the answers, and claiming he never got answered and only got "mocked".

Obviously, the mods have a different opinion. They seem quite happy to let this continue for yet another 6 or more years. And if any well-meaning new members get stuck in Fonzie/meph's moebius loop of dishonesty, well, that seems to be no problem for them as well.

I made a thread about this last year, simply asking why this was allowed to continue. It got deleted. Go figure.

In any case, do what you like. You too, Luca.

 

(Oh, and in case there are any mods out there, please delete my account. Or just give me a troll badge, an asshat badge or even a theist badge )

 

I responded to your PM asking me to delete you.  I asked why in the PM... I assume this is your reason?

This isn't a good reason.  But if you must, you are free to leave.  We'll have memories of you, but we wont misrepesent you as a theist or troll.  You were/are a valuable respected member of this community.  

 

 

 

 

 

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Yopu can only decide

Louis_Cypher wrote:

The bible is just a cobbled together collection of poorly edited fictions. Revelation made the cut by one vote, and for the writer to say 'it is finished' is the height of presumptive arrogance, as the book itself had not been accumulated in any form.
That being said, your faith is a mental defect, a form of cognitive dissonance and a willful attempt to avoid evidence and ignore the utter lack of supporting evidence. You can expound on the book all you wish, it's just a book. The opinions of a group of superstitious primitives means little. Unless you can show real evidence that an invisible, intangible sentience exists, I can dismiss your claims utterly. There is no god because there is no reason to suppose that such a thing exists. A natural, non magical universe is the only default.

LC >;-}>


 

for yourself whether there is a God or not. If you make a statement of absolute then you must prove the absolute. If you say-you don't see how any God can exist then you've stated no absolute and need prove nothing. Being that you did state an absolute you now need to prove it.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.


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WILLS WING U2

luca wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
luca wrote:
No need to repeat 4 times, they are all identical Eye-wink
Luca,

 

I've just tried to make my answer clear to you.  You ask for more explanation.  I think you said not to worry about too much detail.

What? I only said that you posted the answer 4 times, you probably just clicked the "post comment" 4 times while maybe the forum was "halted" and so the same message appeared 4 times (3127-8-9 and 3130).

Fonzie wrote:
You gave it a try, and stalled out and crashed.

???

Fonzie wrote:
So don't speak against what you never understood or experienced.

(remember it's the same for you)

Fonzie wrote:
Now, if you did experience walking by faith, tasted the heavenly gift and then gave it up - the news is bad  (Hebrews 6.1-8).

It happens...

Fonzie wrote:
Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus       search youtube

Too simplicistic. He, like you, doesn't understand that what he's saying is not really religion, he's just criticizing his "neighbourhood", what he sees that is "bad". It really takes time and knowledge to analyze what is really happening in what he's saying. An example is that that words don't apply to me, because I live not only in a different place, but even in another continent. I really think he doesn't know what he's arguing about. And it's easy to show: what is Jesus without religion? what is faith without religion? But maybe we'll arrive to discuss this, who knows.

 

Luca,

 

Sorry for the delay and also sorry I misunderstood "(No need to repeat 4 times they are all identical )"  I have no idea what happened computer-wise but here's what I did:  I didn't have time to answer your post all at once so I answered it in 3 or 4 parts - only showing the part of your post that I was answering.  How that resulted in 4 identical posts I don't know.   Maybe the moderators would like to delete the duplicates.  I can't.

STALLED AND CRASHED - what I mean is you didn't get faith off the ground evidently and gave up.  

SAME FOR ME - right I haven't experienced atheism but I have experienced depravity.  I am speaking against depravity - life without God.

BAD NEWS HAPPENS - good news could break through fast.  Faith is compared to "sight" and sight is fast (quickly you can see the sun) and quickly the gift of grace can be received through faith.  

WHY I HATE RELIGION BUT LOVE JESUS VIDEO - I thought it was concise.  Here's what I mean by "religion" - "form" without substance.  Faking it when it comes to love of God leads to the murky thinking that tries to substitute "symbolism" and "form" for God.  "Religion" in the bad sense is a self deception.  A person deceives himself thinking he is "earning" the heavenly gift by his own righteousness.  

An example of this is the Pharisees - who prayed to be seen by men and at the same time took widow's money by fraud.  

There is "true religion" but when I used the term "religion" I was talking about mistaking form for substance.  

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:SAME FOR ME -

Fonzie wrote:

SAME FOR ME - right I haven't experienced atheism but I have experienced depravity.  I am speaking against depravity - life without God.

BAD NEWS HAPPENS - good news could break through fast.  Faith is compared to "sight" and sight is fast (quickly you can see the sun) and quickly the gift of grace can be received through faith.

You can only see the sun quickly because light travels quickly. Besides, it's not exactly instantaneous: doesn't it take about 8 minutes for light from the sun to reach the earth? Of course, 8 minutes isn't really that long either...

 

So, you think atheism and depravity are synonymous? Do you also think atheists are depraved?

Even if you define "depravity" as "life without God", you don't eliminate the many negative connotations of the word.

 


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APPLES OF GOLD IN A SETTING OF SILVER

blacklight915 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

SAME FOR ME - right I haven't experienced atheism but I have experienced depravity.  I am speaking against depravity - life without God.

BAD NEWS HAPPENS - good news could break through fast.  Faith is compared to "sight" and sight is fast (quickly you can see the sun) and quickly the gift of grace can be received through faith.

You can only see the sun quickly because light travels quickly. Besides, it's not exactly instantaneous: doesn't it take about 8 minutes for light from the sun to reach the earth? Of course, 8 minutes isn't really that long either...

 

So, you think atheism and depravity are synonymous? Do you also think atheists are depraved?

Even if you define "depravity" as "life without God", you don't eliminate the many negative connotations of the word.

 

 

BL,

Yeah I'd be happy (and also believe it's possible too  BTW) if you could see the Light of the Son of God shining in your heart of hearts in 8 minutes through the eyes of faith.  It's very efficient to realize that you don't have to plan your own "spiritual house" ("where it's happening", "where you live) or even build it yourself alone.  It's very efficient to submit yourself to God and His Plan and work under Him.  "Unless the LORD builds the house those who build labor in vain."  If the light could break through and be seen by the eye of faith all questions and doubts gurgling up from unbelief could begin to be put to rest.

Concerning your question - "So, you think atheism and depravity are synonymous?  Do you also think atheists are depraved?"   My answer is yes, but understand the answer isn't from me, it's from the Bible and I have no doubt it's right.  I'm not the publisher here - i'm the paperboy.  If you want to take 5 minutes and read the context of this answer it is found in Romans chapter 1.  It talks about the down progression of man without his God.  It's a slippery slope.  Fortunately if you keep reading the news is good - God has provided The Answer to the problem - the gift of God's Righteousness to be received by grace (undeserved favor) through faith in Jesus.    

Is a friend the one who will tell you what you want to hear - or the truth  though you might not want to hear it  

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:Yeah I'd be

Fonzie wrote:

Yeah I'd be happy (and also believe it's possible too  BTW) if you could see the Light of the Son of God shining in your heart of hearts in 8 minutes through the eyes of faith.  It's very efficient to realize that you don't have to plan your own "spiritual house" ("where it's happening", "where you live) or even build it yourself alone.  It's very efficient to submit yourself to God and His Plan and work under Him.  "Unless the LORD builds the house those who build labor in vain."  If the light could break through and be seen by the eye of faith all questions and doubts gurgling up from unbelief could begin to be put to rest.

It's very efficient to submit yourself to any authority and simply do what they tell you. It's also very easy: you don't have have to think, make any decisions, or have any responsibilities.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Concerning your question - "So, you think atheism and depravity are synonymous?  Do you also think atheists are depraved?"   My answer is yes, but understand the answer isn't from me, it's from the Bible and I have no doubt it's right.  I'm not the publisher here - i'm the paperboy.  If you want to take 5 minutes and read the context of this answer it is found in Romans chapter 1.  It talks about the down progression of man without his God.  It's a slippery slope.  Fortunately if you keep reading the news is good - God has provided The Answer to the problem - the gift of God's Righteousness to be received by grace (undeserved favor) through faith in Jesus.

So you really do think atheists are depraved, that's pretty fucked up.

People can be good without believing in your God. People can become better after losing belief in your God. Are there no atheists or believers in other faiths who have taken actions you consider to be moral? Do you really believe the Bible when it claims that all who don't believe in God are "filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness" (Romans 1:29)?

 

Fonzie wrote:

Is a friend the one who will tell you what you want to hear - or the truth  though you might not want to hear it

If the second is true, you should consider every atheist who's addressed you on this site to be your friend. After all, they are telling you the truth as best they know it. Furthermore, most of them admit of a possibility of being wrong. You, however, admit of no possibility of being wrong.

 

Fonzie wrote:

"...without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." (Hebrews 9.22)

People can forgive each other without hurting each other: violence is not needed for forgiveness. If your God cannot do this, then I say he is less moral than most people.

 


Atheistextremist
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nice post, Blacklight.

blacklight915 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Yeah I'd be happy (and also believe it's possible too  BTW) if you could see the Light of the Son of God shining in your heart of hearts in 8 minutes through the eyes of faith.  It's very efficient to realize that you don't have to plan your own "spiritual house" ("where it's happening", "where you live) or even build it yourself alone.  It's very efficient to submit yourself to God and His Plan and work under Him.  "Unless the LORD builds the house those who build labor in vain."  If the light could break through and be seen by the eye of faith all questions and doubts gurgling up from unbelief could begin to be put to rest.

It's very efficient to submit yourself to any authority and simply do what they tell you. It's also very easy: you don't have have to think, make any decisions, or have any responsibilities.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Concerning your question - "So, you think atheism and depravity are synonymous?  Do you also think atheists are depraved?"   My answer is yes, but understand the answer isn't from me, it's from the Bible and I have no doubt it's right.  I'm not the publisher here - i'm the paperboy.  If you want to take 5 minutes and read the context of this answer it is found in Romans chapter 1.  It talks about the down progression of man without his God.  It's a slippery slope.  Fortunately if you keep reading the news is good - God has provided The Answer to the problem - the gift of God's Righteousness to be received by grace (undeserved favor) through faith in Jesus.

So you really do think atheists are depraved, that's pretty fucked up.

People can be good without believing in your God. People can become better after losing belief in your God. Are there no atheists or believers in other faiths who have taken actions you consider to be moral? Do you really believe the Bible when it claims that all who don't believe in God are "filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness" (Romans 1:29)?

 

Fonzie wrote:

Is a friend the one who will tell you what you want to hear - or the truth  though you might not want to hear it

If the second is true, you should consider every atheist who's addressed you on this site to be your friend. After all, they are telling you the truth as best they know it. Furthermore, most of them admit of a possibility of being wrong. You, however, admit of no possibility of being wrong.

 

Fonzie wrote:

"...without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins." (Hebrews 9.22)

People can forgive each other without hurting each other: violence is not needed for forgiveness. If your God cannot do this, then I say he is less moral than most people.

 

 

Trouble is a literal interpretation of the bible is necessary for this sort of a god person - all must be accepted or the house of cards destablises. My mother is the same way. Fonzie is very special in that he insists science is based on faith. He really doesn't understand the scientific process. As infallible proof of his hypothesis he offers the bible. As proof of the veracity of the bible's claims he offers the bible. And yes, the Fonz is one of those morally inconsistent people who 'loves' a murdering, torturing god concept ignoring the fact an arbitrary use of violence is wrong. 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:nice

Atheistextremist wrote:

nice post, Blacklight.

Thanks! I've been trying to improve the quality of my arguments, but it can be quite time-consuming.

 

Atheistextremist wrote:

Fonzie is very special in that he insists science is based on faith.

Ugh, that reminds of the posts in which Jean Chauvin claims to have "refuted empiricism". The assumptions necessary for science are ones we make every day without even thinking about it. The only ones I can think of are "some of my senses are accurate some of the time" and "past observations can sometimes be used to accurately predict future occurrences".

When I first started reading scholarly articles, I was surprised by how little the authors claim to have accomplished. I was astounded by the amount of work it took to verify seemingly obvious observations. I mean, you can learn the basics of any branch of science in as little time it takes you to read and understand the textbook. But, it probably took decades of testing to verify all that information.

 

Atheistextremist wrote:

As infallible proof of his hypothesis he offers the bible. As proof of the veracity of the bible's claims he offers the bible.

Circular reasoning at its finest...

 

Atheistextremist wrote:

My mother is the same way.

Is she ok with you being an atheist?  I imagine she isn't, but I think it's better to ask than assume...

I'm very thankful my own family is ok with me being an atheist, and that I didn't have to go through much a deconversion process. Some of the stories I've heard are pretty messed up..

 


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Quote:
Little did they realize that any decent open-source trollgarithm could provide the same result, with far greater lithium efficiency:

 

  • God is the ultimate Authority operating at maximum efficiency.  It is more efficient to do what god tells you than do what you want as a sinner.  When god sacrificed himself to himself for our sake, he assumed the ultimate Responsibility.
       
  • The god of the bible thinks atheists are depraved, so I accept his appraisal.
  • God is the ultimate Good.  Noone is good without receiving god's grace. Anyone without god is unrighteous.
  • They may tell the truth as best they know it, but it is not the actual truth.  Because god is the actual Truth, and without god, nothing is True.
  • Without god, there are no morals.  There was a need for violence because we chose to be immoral.

 

 Of course, the only input that the trollgarithm was unable to process was:

 

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 46± µ3 time
 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


zarathustra
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The Masked Ninja, who had long since graduated, stopped by for a visit, and could not resist throwing something the Troll's way for all-time's sake.  He was of course not surprised at all to find that no progress had been made on the outstanding conundrum:

 

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 47± µ3 time
 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


luca
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no gliding today

Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

 

Sorry for the delay and also sorry I misunderstood "(No need to repeat 4 times they are all identical )"  I have no idea what happened computer-wise but here's what I did:  I didn't have time to answer your post all at once so I answered it in 3 or 4 parts - only showing the part of your post that I was answering.  How that resulted in 4 identical posts I don't know.   Maybe the moderators would like to delete the duplicates.  I can't.

STALLED AND CRASHED - what I mean is you didn't get faith off the ground evidently and gave up.  

SAME FOR ME - right I haven't experienced atheism but I have experienced depravity.  I am speaking against depravity - life without God.

BAD NEWS HAPPENS - good news could break through fast.  Faith is compared to "sight" and sight is fast (quickly you can see the sun) and quickly the gift of grace can be received through faith.  

WHY I HATE RELIGION BUT LOVE JESUS VIDEO - I thought it was concise.  Here's what I mean by "religion" - "form" without substance.  Faking it when it comes to love of God leads to the murky thinking that tries to substitute "symbolism" and "form" for God.  "Religion" in the bad sense is a self deception.  A person deceives himself thinking he is "earning" the heavenly gift by his own righteousness.  

An example of this is the Pharisees - who prayed to be seen by men and at the same time took widow's money by fraud.  

There is "true religion" but when I used the term "religion" I was talking about mistaking form for substance.

You may be sorry but sure you don't waste time waiting telling people what you think about them...

It's not that I didn't get faith "off the ground", or better, it's not that I "gave up". I found something which is more correct, but you can't know this, so you must assume I "gave up".
In the end what are the ties to a faith? I think (I hope...) at this point you know my answer (which is two things).

Well you never spoke of atheism which such words, "depravity", I think... Although you may have gone near that "magnitude".
In the end those are words of the bible, but you can still choose what verse of the bible quote.
Not many messages ago you 'acknowledged' that non-believers that don't need God exists, and the title of the thread is "it works for me". Could you write the link between that and "no God = depravity"?

If you remove the "form" of religion, what "substance" in faith remains? That's why I think the statement "I hate religion" should be changed in "I hate bad religion".


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luca wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

 

Sorry for the delay and also sorry I misunderstood "(No need to repeat 4 times they are all identical )"  I have no idea what happened computer-wise but here's what I did:  I didn't have time to answer your post all at once so I answered it in 3 or 4 parts - only showing the part of your post that I was answering.  How that resulted in 4 identical posts I don't know.   Maybe the moderators would like to delete the duplicates.  I can't.

STALLED AND CRASHED - what I mean is you didn't get faith off the ground evidently and gave up.  

SAME FOR ME - right I haven't experienced atheism but I have experienced depravity.  I am speaking against depravity - life without God.

BAD NEWS HAPPENS - good news could break through fast.  Faith is compared to "sight" and sight is fast (quickly you can see the sun) and quickly the gift of grace can be received through faith.  

WHY I HATE RELIGION BUT LOVE JESUS VIDEO - I thought it was concise.  Here's what I mean by "religion" - "form" without substance.  Faking it when it comes to love of God leads to the murky thinking that tries to substitute "symbolism" and "form" for God.  "Religion" in the bad sense is a self deception.  A person deceives himself thinking he is "earning" the heavenly gift by his own righteousness.  

An example of this is the Pharisees - who prayed to be seen by men and at the same time took widow's money by fraud.  

There is "true religion" but when I used the term "religion" I was talking about mistaking form for substance.

You may be sorry but sure you don't waste time waiting telling people what you think about them... It's not that I didn't get faith "off the ground", or better, it's not that I "gave up". I found something which is more correct, but you can't know this, so you must assume I "gave up". In the end what are the ties to a faith? I think (I hope...) at this point you know my answer (which is two things). Well you never spoke of atheism which such words, "depravity", I think... Although you may have gone near that "magnitude". In the end those are words of the bible, but you can still choose what verse of the bible quote. Not many messages ago you 'acknowledged' that non-believers that don't need God exists, and the title of the thread is "it works for me". Could you write the link between that and "no God = depravity"? If you remove the "form" of religion, what "substance" in faith remains? That's why I think the statement "I hate religion" should be changed in "I hate bad religion".

 

 

Luca,

 

I was sorry I didn't have time to do what I wanted - which was answer your post without a rush.  

As far as wasting time - why should we waste time.  Just because I am straight with you doesn't mean an ill wind blows.  I believe the Bible - I apply it to myself the same as you.

As far as my describing what you did with your pursuit of faith in God in a way that you like -  there is necessarily conflict and dissension because I am promoting faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ which you reject.  There is no way I can put it that would please you and fit your own justification of what you're doing.  As far as my assumptions - I admittedly don't know what you're doing or what God's doing for that matter.  It's a disadvantage I have being a man.  

When I said you didn't get faith "off the ground" and "gave up" it was not an all knowing description of what you are about.  It was just a way of describing it from my point of view, as I would describe myself if I did that.   

Depravity to me is a man living without his God.  It has that magnitude for me - and I remember when I was without God and depraved.  I can understand you having a different view.  

As far as "choosing which Bible verse to quote" - let me know if I have something out of context from the Scriptures.  I don't aim to do that.  It gets long to try to give the context but I don't aim to put any twist on anything.  

There are non-believers that think they don't need God to live - however they are "settling" for an existence that isn't the abundant life nor the eternal life that is in Christ.  

There are ordinances God has set up that are to be respected - baptism, the LORD'S SUPPER, worship, prayer - but the substance of the form is God.  You could rehearse forms but not commune with God and know God and draw near to God.  You could thus mistake the forms for God.  Indeed if you don't commune with God, know God, etc you will probably hold fanatically to the forms fooling yourself and satisfying your fleshly side with ritual.  The fleshly side of man is threatened however by faith - it opposes the pride of the fleshly side.

You may be right about the name change - but since you reject Jesus anyway why would it matter to you.  

 

 

 

 

 

 


luca
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Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

 

I was sorry I didn't have time to do what I wanted - which was answer your post without a rush.  

As far as wasting time - why should we waste time.  Just because I am straight with you doesn't mean an ill wind blows.  I believe the Bible - I apply it to myself the same as you.

As far as my describing what you did with your pursuit of faith in God in a way that you like -  there is necessarily conflict and dissension because I am promoting faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ which you reject.  There is no way I can put it that would please you and fit your own justification of what you're doing.  As far as my assumptions - I admittedly don't know what you're doing or what God's doing for that matter.  It's a disadvantage I have being a man.  

When I said you didn't get faith "off the ground" and "gave up" it was not an all knowing description of what you are about.  It was just a way of describing it from my point of view, as I would describe myself if I did that.   

Depravity to me is a man living without his God.  It has that magnitude for me - and I remember when I was without God and depraved.  I can understand you having a different view.  

As far as "choosing which Bible verse to quote" - let me know if I have something out of context from the Scriptures.  I don't aim to do that.  It gets long to try to give the context but I don't aim to put any twist on anything.  

There are non-believers that think they don't need God to live - however they are "settling" for an existence that isn't the abundant life nor the eternal life that is in Christ.  

There are ordinances God has set up that are to be respected - baptism, the LORD'S SUPPER, worship, prayer - but the substance of the form is God.  You could rehearse forms but not commune with God and know God and draw near to God.  You could thus mistake the forms for God.  Indeed if you don't commune with God, know God, etc you will probably hold fanatically to the forms fooling yourself and satisfying your fleshly side with ritual.  The fleshly side of man is threatened however by faith - it opposes the pride of the fleshly side.

You may be right about the name change - but since you reject Jesus anyway why would it matter to you.

 

You may believe the bible, but understanding from your words you seem to apply it too broadly. Even if "confidence like in a person" is true, then it still doesn't explain why you trust your faith so much. Example: I tell you one thing, and it verifies to be true. At this point then you say you trust me, and if I say another thing it will be true. Am I the only one that sees that as a non sequitur? What justifies me, that I say that I have created the universe?
And try to see where believing leads to: an example is islam. It is said to be the same god (in all 3 monoteisms), not that I care much about that. But do you realize what are they doing? Some of them go around exploding themselves and killing people, some of them do activities like that. Why? "Because God (Allah) said that". Which, in other words, means "dogma". So in opposite (not because of them, it wasn't the cause) I try to live my life understanding things, and searching the origins of the things -- in one word, explanations. I don't see what there could be better than that: if applied could have prevented a lot of bad things.
The fact is that "explanations" includes also bad behavior and love, but you seem to be limiting yourself to the bible. This is another thing I don't understand much. If you tell me "I don't wish to deepen those thematics", maybe because you don't have time, or because it's hard, ok, but then say "I don't know" instead of "the bible says it's like that".

I don't "reject the gospel of Jesus Christ". It's like saying "this gospel is an authority which you refute to follow", which is not, so I'm not rejecting nothing. It has no importance, the decision doesn't even comes. It's like if I told you "you reject the gospel of the snarfwidgets". Do you know what is a snarfwidget? Probably not, because probably the concept doesn't even exists. That's Jesus and his gospel. No "choosing", no "rejection". Wrong words.
Or also "you reject the morality of Aesop"... Do you even ask youself the question? No, it's a completely alien argument. For me it's the same.

It is not the point of you telling me the things in a way I like. Things are what they are.
So that's another problem I was describing: you said "gave up" because you're analysing the matter from your point of view, judging from what you could or could not do, something you should not do. I didn't live your life, nor I had your experiences, so I don't act (and think) like you (so, if I'm not already being obvious, you can't judge me basing only on yourself -- because that's what I saw you doing).

"Depravity to me is" still a strong word. It's together corrupted and evil, without morality. I think you're using the wrong word.

It's not that you quoted verses out of context, it's that being that a verse can have multiple meanings you are the one who decides what extrapolate every time you want to quote the bible. Until you're saying that you consider every verse to be univocal, but from what I understand from the metaphors' little debate I'd say this is not the case.

Now, I have no problems with the finiteness of my life, so I'm not going there, but that the non-believers don't live "an abundant life" is something that is different from my experiences. In fact I think it's the opposite way.

Pride seems a great concern to you. And maybe evey other faithful person I've talked with, even the one practising oriental religions.

Okay, there are the three ordinances. But so how do you commune/know/draw near to God? Is the bible part of religion?

"You may be right about the name change - but since you reject Jesus anyway why would it matter to you."
Maybe one day you'll understand.