It works for me!

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It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


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Fonzie wrote:redneF

Fonzie wrote:

redneF wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

I know it's embarrassing to bring light to the lack of atheist substance here -  

I gave you the substance...lol

We're not afraid.

Neither is this lady...

 

 

 

red,

A person can use their providential survey of life to calculate the meaning of life and be free to do that but it is what it is - which is total speculation.  I have tried the ideas in the Bible and come to the conclusion that it is the revealed thoughts of God.  The more I study them and try them the more fully assured I am.

The power of the gospel is the free gift of God in the cross of Christ.  Faith in the free gift which justifies us before God breaks through all the condemnation of the law which we have all broken.  

You say your substance as an atheist is you "aren't afraid".  I am not trying to motive you with terror to have faith in the gift of grace in Christ but from love for God in response to His love for you.  Faith in the sacrifice of Christ frees us from the guilt of the law.  We receive the gift of God through faith, which breaks through all the doubts and questionings of despair.  

I am not trying to scare you for sins which I have committed as well as you - I am trying to point you to Christ and faith in Christ, which is the joyful answer and the treasure of life and enables you to live in the presence of God forever.

A person could have never seen electricity and honestly not be afraid of it.  That doesn't mean no danger - it's just a reflection on lack of the individual awareness of danger.

 

YOU TUBE  BROOKLYN TABERNACLE CHOIR   "I'M NOT AFRAID"  (NOT SURE HOW TO INSERT LINK)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"The revealed thoughts of God", mephzie? Is that because they mirror your thoughts?

So you agree with slavery and genocide? You agree with a rape victim being forced to marry her rapist as HIS punishment?

Have you tried those ideas?

there is a difference between fear and respect, mephzie. I respect electricity because I have seen what it can do. You fear the God of the Bible because you don't know what he's going to do next. The God you respect is the one who agrees with you because he is you.

And speaking of fear, mephzie, anytime you want to be a big, brave boy and answer this question:

Quote:

Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found hereseveralth + 35.1± µ3 time  

I'll be right here.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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I CAN'T WAKE FLY AND WHY.............

 

 

 

fonzie wrote:

 

red,

A person can use their providential survey of life to calculate the meaning of life and be free to do that but it is what it is - which is total speculation.  I have tried the ideas in the Bible and come to the conclusion that it is the revealed thoughts of God.  The more I study them and try them the more fully assured I am.

The power of the gospel is the free gift of God in the cross of Christ.  Faith in the free gift which justifies us before God breaks through all the condemnation of the law which we have all broken.  

You say your substance as an atheist is you "aren't afraid".  I am not trying to motive you with terror to have faith in the gift of grace in Christ but from love for God in response to His love for you.  Faith in the sacrifice of Christ frees us from the guilt of the law.  We receive the gift of God through faith, which breaks through all the doubts and questionings of despair.  

I am not trying to scare you for sins which I have committed as well as you - I am trying to point you to Christ and faith in Christ, which is the joyful answer and the treasure of life and enables you to live in the presence of God forever.

A person could have never seen electricity and honestly not be afraid of it.  That doesn't mean no danger - it's just a reflection on lack of the individual awareness of danger.

 

 

youtu.be/GLOFLFI0N60

 

 

 

jcgadfly wrote:

"The revealed thoughts of God", mephzie? Is that because they mirror your thoughts?

So you agree with slavery and genocide? You agree with a rape victim being forced to marry her rapist as HIS punishment?

Have you tried those ideas?

there is a difference between fear and respect, mephzie. I respect electricity because I have seen what it can do. You fear the God of the Bible because you don't know what he's going to do next. The God you respect is the one who agrees with you because he is you.

And speaking of fear, mephzie, anytime you want to be a big, brave boy and answer this question:

 

Quote:

Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found hereseveralth + 35.1± µ3 time  

I'll be right here.

 

 

 

 

Fly,

I think the reason you can't be awakened is because you pretend to be sleeping.  

The Scriptures are the revealed thoughts of God, and yes - the Holy Spirit has revealed them through men who wrote as the Holy Spirit moved them.  The fact that you don't know this has no bearing on the fact that they are.  It is only a reflection of your unbelief - which you are perfectly free to make the mistake of settling for, or not.  

As to your intentional twisted app of the law of Moses... you are trying for a Tony?  Christ has not only honored the law He has fulfilled the law, and this is the age of grace in Jesus Christ.  This is now fly.  

Don't miss it.  

The life of a fly is short.  

 

 

 


redneF
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Fonzie wrote:I know it's

Fonzie wrote:

I know it's embarrassing to bring light to the lack of atheist substance here - 

redneF wrote:

I gave you the substance...lol

We're not afraid.

 

 red,

A person can use their providential survey of life to calculate the meaning of life...

Any person making this comment, isn't very perceptive. What a comment like that is doing is 'projecting'.

You may have decided that your life must have some cosmic significance.

You may feel that you need to 'anchor' your character to something other than yourself.

Those are your emotions.

That's subjective. Not objective.

You're only telling people how you feel. No one is obligated to feel as you do.

That's another distinction between me and people like you. My character comes from within me.

Fonzie wrote:
 I have tried the ideas in the Bible and come to the conclusion that it is the revealed thoughts of God.  The more I study them and try them the more fully assured I am.

Doesn't matter what you people feel.

Fonzie wrote:
 You say your substance as an atheist is you "aren't afraid". 

No.

It was a rebuttal to your comments that you fail to see any 'susbstance' in non Baby Jesus sycophants.

Anyone making those types of comments isn't very perceptive.

I have many facets to my nature. That's just one of the fundamental ones.

Fonzie wrote:
I am not trying to motive you with terror to have faith in the gift of grace in Christ but from love for God in response to His love for you. 

Anyone making those types of comments isn't very perceptive.

A god who has mercy on evil people who 'accept' the faith in Baby Jesus is not a loving god. He is pure narcissistic evil.

Fonzie wrote:
Faith in the sacrifice of Christ frees us from the guilt of the law.

That's why you people commit as many evil acts as you do. Christianity is promising you a 'get out of jail free' card.

That 'get out of jail free' card would be of utmost importance to me too, if I was a child molester. 

 

It appears that you value your 'get out of jail free' card just as much as the most evil child molester would.

Funny dat... 

To be on the safe side, I'd keep my children as far away from you as possible. Your main motives in life to pray and devote yourself to qualifying for forgiveness are a serious red flag.

Fonzie wrote:
I am not trying to scare you for sins which I have committed as well as you

You're projecting.

Maybe you and the child molester both feel evil.

I don't.

Fonzie wrote:
I am trying to point you to Christ and faith in Christ

You're projecting again.

I don't have the same feelings that you or a child molesting Christian do. 

Fonzie wrote:
...the treasure of life and enables you to live in the presence of God forever.

You're projecting again.

I would never want to spend forever in the presence of such a thing, nor alongside any other people who used the 'get out of jail free' card.

I'd rather spend it in hell with people more like me.

Fonzie wrote:
A person could have never seen electricity and honestly not be afraid of it.  That doesn't mean no danger - it's just a reflection on lack of the individual awareness of danger.

You're projecting again.

It obvious that you feel there's a great external danger to you for the life that you have lived, and why you cling to the hope that you can escape punishment.

Just like the evil child molesting Christian would.

 

don't have those feelings.

Nor would I want to spend Sundays in a church full of people who are praying for 'get out of jail free' cards. Because no matter the crime, Jesus doesn't care. He only looks to see if you accepted him.

That's the bottom line.

The level of evil ain't no big thing.

Look at all the 'evil' in America, then realize that America is full of evil, and America is 90% Christians looking to avoid getting punished.

Birds of the feather, flock together...

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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ANCIENT MANDARIN CHINESE TRANSLATION PROBLEM

redneF wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

I know it's embarrassing to bring light to the lack of atheist substance here - 

redneF wrote:

I gave you the substance...lol

We're not afraid.

 

 red,

A person can use their providential survey of life to calculate the meaning of life...

Any person making this comment, isn't very perceptive. What a comment like that is doing is 'projecting'.

You may have decided that your life must have some cosmic significance.

You may feel that you need to 'anchor' your character to something other than yourself.

Those are your emotions.

That's subjective. Not objective.

You're only telling people how you feel. No one is obligated to feel as you do.

That's another distinction between me and people like you. My character comes from within me.

Fonzie wrote:
 I have tried the ideas in the Bible and come to the conclusion that it is the revealed thoughts of God.  The more I study them and try them the more fully assured I am.

Doesn't matter what you people feel.

Fonzie wrote:
 You say your substance as an atheist is you "aren't afraid". 

No.

It was a rebuttal to your comments that you fail to see any 'susbstance' in non Baby Jesus sycophants.

Anyone making those types of comments isn't very perceptive.

I have many facets to my nature. That's just one of the fundamental ones.

Fonzie wrote:
I am not trying to motive you with terror to have faith in the gift of grace in Christ but from love for God in response to His love for you. 

Anyone making those types of comments isn't very perceptive.

A god who has mercy on evil people who 'accept' the faith in Baby Jesus is not a loving god. He is pure narcissistic evil.

Fonzie wrote:
Faith in the sacrifice of Christ frees us from the guilt of the law.

That's why you people commit as many evil acts as you do. Christianity is promising you a 'get out of jail free' card.

That 'get out of jail free' card would be of utmost importance to me too, if I was a child molester. 

 

It appears that you value your 'get out of jail free' card just as much as the most evil child molester would.

Funny dat... 

To be on the safe side, I'd keep my children as far away from you as possible. Your main motives in life to pray and devote yourself to qualifying for forgiveness are a serious red flag.

Fonzie wrote:
I am not trying to scare you for sins which I have committed as well as you

You're projecting.

Maybe you and the child molester both feel evil.

I don't.

Fonzie wrote:
I am trying to point you to Christ and faith in Christ

You're projecting again.

I don't have the same feelings that you or a child molesting Christian do. 

Fonzie wrote:
...the treasure of life and enables you to live in the presence of God forever.

You're projecting again.

I would never want to spend forever in the presence of such a thing, nor alongside any other people who used the 'get out of jail free' card.

I'd rather spend it in hell with people more like me.

Fonzie wrote:
A person could have never seen electricity and honestly not be afraid of it.  That doesn't mean no danger - it's just a reflection on lack of the individual awareness of danger.

You're projecting again.

It obvious that you feel there's a great external danger to you for the life that you have lived, and why you cling to the hope that you can escape punishment.

Just like the evil child molesting Christian would.

 

don't have those feelings.

Nor would I want to spend Sundays in a church full of people who are praying for 'get out of jail free' cards. Because no matter the crime, Jesus doesn't care. He only looks to see if you accepted him.

That's the bottom line.

The level of evil ain't no big thing.

Look at all the 'evil' in America, then realize that America is full of evil, and America is 90% Christians looking to avoid getting punished.

Birds of the feather, flock together...

 

 

 

 

red,

 

It looks like you have put some effort into really answering me from your position of unbelief in Jesus and God, so thanks.  

Obviously we are worlds apart and it isn't just a matter of discussing the fine points of it.  From square one we take off in if not opposite directions, close.  Now we are both each further down the roads we have taken, so I wouldn't be very perceptive as you say to think I can get you to "recalculate, go 400 feet and make a u-turn".  It could happen but it wouldn't be me causing it.  

As far as communicating I think I could get as far with you if it was Chinese (or if you read Chinese some language outside your many faceted nature).  Even though we are writing English the basis for our communication is further apart than a foreign language, and the problem isn't one I can fix.  

As far as my "projecting" or your "projecting" - it's probably true that everybody projects their own experience into their perception of things, I'll grant you that.  But again we definitely are projecting a different experience based on a different focus and faith.  

I don't think you'll buy this, but I'll mention it anyway.  After I was really moved to repentance by the gospel I came out of that not wanting to sin anymore (of course I have stumbled and fell many times since then but I hate it, I don't want to sin).  So your "get out of jail free card" as you seem to view it is a perversion of grace - and it's not an uncommon one to fall to, mentioned by Paul, "shall we sin that grace may abound?  No, never".  

So we both see that as a wrong view, but you seem to think it's classic everyday Christianity business as usual.  It's a devil's trick that trips up Christians and also keeps people who aren't very perceptive from finding the real thing, which is Christ.  The followers all have faults, true, but there is no flaw in the Sacrifice, the Lamb of God.  He was and is Perfect.  

I'm not at all insulted by your comments.  You have to understand that your comments that come from unbelief don't touch me any more than my statements of faith touch you.  

And unlike Fly's view my motivation for telling how "it works for me" is not because it helps me feel better than anybody (I don't expect you to believe this either) but rather it's because I really do have tons of treasure to share in Christ.  It's with hope that somebody could see light to the same treasure I've found in Christ.  I looked a long time and I hate to look for things, and I have found the treasure.  

Christ is the door to the treasure and since He knocks it's logical for me to knock.   

 

 

 

 

 

 


zarathustra
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(Poe)

XI

 
Oh someone's on the Lithium, desp'rate in her spleen,

Someone's on the speculum, doing her morphine.

Somewhere minds are logical, and everything is zen,

But there is no joy in Threadville:  The Old Troll has dodged again!

 

 

After the children had finished reading the poem, they looked at their homework assignment and groaned with agony.  They were asked to write an essay (at least 3,000 paragraphs) about how they, as the Old Troll, would respond to the question:

 

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 38± µ3 time

RedNerf and the Gadfly scrambled to see who could finish their essay first...

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


jcgadfly
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zarathustra wrote:XI Oh

zarathustra wrote:

XI

 
Oh someone's on the Lithium, desp'rate in her spleen,

Someone's on the speculum, doing her morphine.

Somewhere minds are logical, and everything is zen,

But there is no joy in Threadville:  The Old Troll has dodged again!

 

 

After the children had finished reading the poem, they looked at their homework assignment and groaned with agony.  They were asked to write an essay (at least 3,000 paragraphs) about how they, as the Old Troll, would respond to the question:

 

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 38± µ3 time

RedNerf and the Gadfly scrambled to see who could finish their essay first...

Nah - sounds too damn much like work...

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Ah, this thread is still

Ah, this thread is still here. 

Fonzie wrote:
The life of a fly is short.

Yet, it's so annoying, isn't it? That tiny, insignificant little gadfly just won't stop flying around, making it's annoying little fly sounds. And you just don't have a fly swatter.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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THE WHY AND THE FLY THO THE ANSWER IS NIGH

butterbattle wrote:

Ah, this thread is still here. 

Fonzie wrote:
The life of a fly is short.

Yet, it's so annoying, isn't it? That tiny, insignificant little gadfly just won't stop flying around, making it's annoying little fly sounds. And you just don't have a fly swatter.

 

 

battle,

 

It's (notice: this is the right use of the apostrophe - it's = it is) short without or with the swatter, DDT, bad taco or  cow pie.  I'm for the fly living high though he's not buying why - he won't even try.    

 

 

 

 


jcgadfly
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Fonzie wrote:butterbattle

Fonzie wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

Ah, this thread is still here. 

Fonzie wrote:
The life of a fly is short.

Yet, it's so annoying, isn't it? That tiny, insignificant little gadfly just won't stop flying around, making it's annoying little fly sounds. And you just don't have a fly swatter.

 

 

battle,

 

It's (notice: this is the right use of the apostrophe - it's = it is) short without or with the swatter, DDT, bad taco or  cow pie.  I'm for the fly living high though he's not buying why - he won't even try.    

 

 

 

 

Mephzie,

In order to live high in your estimation I'd have to hang out by a massive pile of your manure - no thanks. I keep telling you I don't want to worship you or the God that you made. Why haven't you figured that out yet?

And lest we forget:

Quote:

Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found hereseveralth + 38± µ3 time

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Fonzie
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BLOW-BY FROM THE FLY=LESS FLY

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

Ah, this thread is still here. 

Fonzie wrote:
The life of a fly is short.

Yet, it's so annoying, isn't it? That tiny, insignificant little gadfly just won't stop flying around, making it's annoying little fly sounds. And you just don't have a fly swatter.

 

 

battle,

 

It's (notice: this is the right use of the apostrophe - it's = it is) short without or with the swatter, DDT, bad taco or  cow pie.  I'm for the fly living high though he's not buying why - he won't even try.    

 

 

 

 

Mephzie,

In order to live high in your estimation I'd have to hang out by a massive pile of your manure - no thanks. I keep telling you I don't want to worship you or the God that you made. Why haven't you figured that out yet?

And lest we forget:

Quote:

Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found hereseveralth + 38± µ3 time

 

 

 

Fly,

 

You talk about thinking and think about flying from your lofty perch, but it's empty talk from a fly-less fly.  

 

http://vimeo.com/31158841

 

                      

 

 

 

 


redneF
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Fonzie wrote: Obviously we

Fonzie wrote:
Obviously we are worlds apart...

Clearly.

And I'm glad.

I have self esteem. I don't need any external validation.

And I don't feel guilt or fear for the way I live, and I don't fear that I have any infinite punishment coming.

That's substantive.

 

So, to ask 'what substance do atheists have' as you, and many other Christians do, actually demonstrates a very shallow perception of the self.

Fonzie wrote:
I'm not at all insulted by your comments. 

I didn't express any concern or guilt over how my statements would affect your personal feelings.

This is the information age.

Shallow perceptions and poorly formed epistemologies need to be exposed to educate as many people as possible.

Fonzie wrote:
I looked a long time and I hate to look for things...

This is evident.

You struggle to understand and reconcile the character and self esteem of people like me.

It seems to be a common theme among theists and/or people who suffer the dysfunction of an irrational need for external validation.

Questions like 'Why am I here?' or 'Why do I exist?', or 'What purpose does my life have?'or 'What is my worth?' signal a very strong anxiety and unstable mental and emotional states.

 

It's very well understood in psychology.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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SELF MIRAGE ESTEEM PERCEPTIONALITY

redneF wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Obviously we are worlds apart...

Clearly.

And I'm glad.

I have self esteem. I don't need any external validation.

And I don't feel guilt or fear for the way I live, and I don't fear that I have any infinite punishment coming.

That's substantive.

 

So, to ask 'what substance do atheists have' as you, and many other Christians do, actually demonstrates a very shallow perception of the self.

Fonzie wrote:
I'm not at all insulted by your comments. 

I didn't express any concern or guilt over how my statements would affect your personal feelings.

This is the information age.

Shallow perceptions and poorly formed epistemologies need to be exposed to educate as many people as possible.

Fonzie wrote:
I looked a long time and I hate to look for things...

This is evident.

You struggle to understand and reconcile the character and self esteem of people like me.

It seems to be a common theme among theists and/or people who suffer the dysfunction of an irrational need for external validation.

Questions like 'Why am I here?' or 'Why do I exist?', or 'What purpose does my life have?'or 'What is my worth?' signal a very strong anxiety and unstable mental and emotional states.

 

It's very well understood in psychology.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

red,

And where are psychology's success stories?  It's smoke and mirrors - emphasis on the smoke.  I've read that crap and about lives of some top dogs like Freud - what a joke.  But sure, you have people that hold it all in high esteem - you are one red?  You're free to take that road and I'm glad we're worlds apart if that's your decision.  "Hello the camp!" 

A shallow perception of the "self", huh?  Maybe I've just got a shallow self.  How does a self develop a deep perception of itself if it's a shallow self among selfs equally shallow?  Or this; does a deep perceptive self present itself as deep or would that signal shallowness to a casual other's self examiner?  

I get sick of this self esteem crap.  It's nothing but stroking the ego and pretending it's a genie god - which is asking more of the little self thing than it has to give (even 3 wishes).  Where are your examples of gigantic self marvels?  Give me one or two that are gigantic self perceivers that are hitting on all cylinders (maybe you are one example) and parade them by me so I can realize my unworthiness (or not).  This is a mirage, red.  You are heading for a mirage.  It's nothing but a destructible fake mirage and my little self is NOT fooled by it.  I guess I'm just not smart or perceptive enough, huh?    

 

  

    

 

 

 

 

 


redneF
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Fonzie wrote:red,And where

Fonzie wrote:

red,

And where are psychology's success stories?  

-Cognitive Behavioral Therapy

-Immersion Therapy

Fonzie wrote:
It's smoke and mirrors - emphasis on the smoke. 

No. The evidence is when people are cured from their dysfunctions. 

 

Fonzie wrote:
A shallow perception of the "self", huh?  Maybe I've just got a shallow self.

You've confessed that already, numerous times.  

Fonzie wrote:
How does a self develop a deep perception of itself if it's a shallow self among selfs equally shallow? 

CBT, along with self actualization.

Fonzie wrote:
I get sick of this self esteem crap. 

That's unhealthy.

Fonzie wrote:
Where are your examples of gigantic self marvels? 
 

You can find many among Buddhists and Taoists, and practitioners of Martial Arts, for example.

I know many.

Fonzie wrote:
 This is a mirage, red. 

No, the science is in on the 'transformations' to the self. 

Fonzie wrote:
 It's nothing but a destructible fake mirage and my little self is NOT fooled by it. 
 

The thought of it takes you out of your 'comfort zone'. You'd rather not risk leaving your comfort zone.

That's typical, and well understood.

 

That doesn't mean you don't need to do it, for yourself, and if you care about those you love and/or interact with.

Compare your behavior to a Buddhist or a Taoist, and see if you could be 'healthier' in your self esteem and how you behave towards others, whether you decide to keep believing in Jesus, or not.

The people who were successfully treated for their fears and dysfunctions would be the best ones to provide you with a lifetime of evidence that they wish they did it sooner, no matter their 'worldview', religious or not.

You may find you lack a lot of 'substance' that others have. If you neglect that, you're being detrimental and possibly abusive to yourself and to others.

Less is not more.

More is more...

 

 

 

  

    

 

 

 

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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SATISFACTION IS IN THE FOCUS CROSSHAIRS OF THE WORSHIPPER

redneF wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

red,

And where are psychology's success stories?  

-Cognitive Behavioral Therapy

-Immersion Therapy

Fonzie wrote:
It's smoke and mirrors - emphasis on the smoke. 

No. The evidence is when people are cured from their dysfunctions. 

 

Fonzie wrote:
A shallow perception of the "self", huh?  Maybe I've just got a shallow self.

You've confessed that already, numerous times.  

Fonzie wrote:
How does a self develop a deep perception of itself if it's a shallow self among selfs equally shallow? 

CBT, along with self actualization.

Fonzie wrote:
I get sick of this self esteem crap. 

That's unhealthy.

Fonzie wrote:
Where are your examples of gigantic self marvels? 
 

You can find many among Buddhists and Taoists, and practitioners of Martial Arts, for example.

I know many.

Fonzie wrote:
 This is a mirage, red. 

No, the science is in on the 'transformations' to the self. 

Fonzie wrote:
 It's nothing but a destructible fake mirage and my little self is NOT fooled by it. 
 

The thought of it takes you out of your 'comfort zone'. You'd rather not risk leaving your comfort zone.

That's typical, and well understood.

 

That doesn't mean you don't need to do it, for yourself, and if you care about those you love and/or interact with.

Compare your behavior to a Buddhist or a Taoist, and see if you could be 'healthier' in your self esteem and how you behave towards others, whether you decide to keep believing in Jesus, or not.

The people who were successfully treated for their fears and dysfunctions would be the best ones to provide you with a lifetime of evidence that they wish they did it sooner, no matter their 'worldview', religious or not.

You may find you lack a lot of 'substance' that others have. If you neglect that, you're being detrimental and possibly abusive to yourself and to others.

Less is not more.

More is more...

 

 

 

  

    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

red,

 

I HAVE tried the "self" trip.  I think you are honest about your investment in this - but...honestly for me it didn't satisfy.  It was a new toy for a while but also deceptively destructive.  And this ego propelled state is an easy target for deceptive forces.  

My old self is dead  and if necessary dying - while my new life is all new and indestructible... in Jesus' indestructible Life.  It may be a dinner of herbs from your world view but it's far better to have that with the Lowly than a fatted ox with the proud.  And I do have a continual feast - plus I can't get too much of it.  It won't rot my teeth.    

The sources you mention are nothing but broken cisterns that won't hold water.  I have a Fountain welling up within me eternal and I'm not bothered with thirst.  And red I don't buy the psychology psuedo triumphs either.  I don't believe they'll bear close examination.  I've seen some of the inner workings of these guys in operation and their fake solutions, and the fact is when the clinics are fully set up and running some of the psydocs should be the first patients.  

I couldn't be more satisfied or encouraged or propelled than I am by Jesus Christ - His Life, His death which was the death of Death for those in Him, His resurrection to indestructible life, now life in Him and living continually in His presence.  Your Buddhists and Taoists are becoming like the wood or metal thing they worship - which has eyes but can't see and fat but can't eat and maybe legs but can't walk.  Like the Jackson 5 sang - "Ain't Nothin' like the Real Thing!"  Jesus Is.  Buddhist isn't.  

Now the typical thing is for you to just call it preaching and go off to an ego polishing party.  But maybe you've decided that's "too easy".  Wouldn't it be more fun to run over me with your juiced ego?  I don't really have an ego to offer you - I count it all dung for the sake of knowing Christ.  Don't cut your foot!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote: I HAVE tried

Fonzie wrote:
I HAVE tried the "self" trip.... but...honestly for me it didn't satisfy. 

It's not a 'trip'. It's not an opiate.

Fonzie wrote:
I think you are honest about your investment in this ...

It was my most honest attempt at having meaningful personal dialogue with you. This will be my last, since your responses to me sound like a bad poetry recital.   

Now I know my suspicions about you are true. That's really all I was after...

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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(Poe)

RedNerf's grip of the painfully obvious was tighter than Elvis' belt after a Vegas buffet. It had only taken him !#$@2 times to realize that "meaningful personal dialogue" with an Old Troll was hopeless. 

Gadfly, meanwhile, stayed the course, only feeding the Troll what it did not like:

 

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 39± µ3 time

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πππ†
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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

Ah, this thread is still here. 

Fonzie wrote:
The life of a fly is short.

Yet, it's so annoying, isn't it? That tiny, insignificant little gadfly just won't stop flying around, making it's annoying little fly sounds. And you just don't have a fly swatter.

 

 

battle,

 

It's (notice: this is the right use of the apostrophe - it's = it is) short without or with the swatter, DDT, bad taco or  cow pie.  I'm for the fly living high though he's not buying why - he won't even try.    

 

 

 

 

Mephzie,

In order to live high in your estimation I'd have to hang out by a massive pile of your manure - no thanks. I keep telling you I don't want to worship you or the God that you made. Why haven't you figured that out yet?

And lest we forget:

Quote:

Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found hereseveralth + 38± µ3 time

 

 

 

Fly,

 

You talk about thinking and think about flying from your lofty perch, but it's empty talk from a fly-less fly.  

 

http://vimeo.com/31158841

 

                      

 

 

 

 

 

All you have to do to be taken seriously is answer this question"

Quote:

Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found hereseveralth + 38± µ3 time

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Hmm, I still like the

Hmm, I still like the question, "If Christianity was proven to be false, would you still be a Christian?" or "Which do you value more: truth or your beliefs?"

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote:Hmm, I

butterbattle wrote:

Hmm, I still like the question, "If Christianity was proven to be false, would you still be a Christian?" or "Which do you value more: truth or your beliefs?"

 

Fonphibosheth doesn't have the stones to answer a simple yes or no question.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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"RIGHTEOUS RETREAT" - FOR LACK OF SELF SUBSTANCE

redneF wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
I HAVE tried the "self" trip.... but...honestly for me it didn't satisfy. 

It's not a 'trip'. It's not an opiate.

Fonzie wrote:
I think you are honest about your investment in this ...

It was my most honest attempt at having meaningful personal dialogue with you. This will be my last, since your responses to me sound like a bad poetry recital.   

Now I know my suspicions about you are true. That's really all I was after...

 

 

red,

I guess if you can't defend your worship of self it's logical for you to head for the high grass - and at the same time label it a righteous retreat.

The world is full of examples of not finding real substance with the worship of self.

BTW my posts are honest attempts too - just not accepted by you because we don't walk the same path.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


jcgadfly
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Fonzie wrote:redneF

Fonzie wrote:

redneF wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
I HAVE tried the "self" trip.... but...honestly for me it didn't satisfy. 

It's not a 'trip'. It's not an opiate.

Fonzie wrote:
I think you are honest about your investment in this ...

It was my most honest attempt at having meaningful personal dialogue with you. This will be my last, since your responses to me sound like a bad poetry recital.   

Now I know my suspicions about you are true. That's really all I was after...

 

 

red,

I guess if you can't defend your worship of self it's logical for you to head for the high grass - and at the same time label it a righteous retreat.

The world is full of examples of not finding real substance with the worship of self.

BTW my posts are honest attempts too - just not accepted by you because we don't walk the same path.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Terribly ironic that you talk about self-worship, mephzie. That seems to be your game - you just couldn't think up an original name so you call your ego "Christ".

Oh and your "honest attempts" would be taken more seriously if you started by answering this question:

 

Quote:

Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found hereseveralth + 38± µ3 time

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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zarathustra wrote: RedNerf's

zarathustra wrote:
RedNerf's grip of the painfully obvious was tighter than Elvis' belt after a Vegas buffet.

Good one!

 

zarathustra wrote:
It had only taken him !#$@2 times to realize that "meaningful personal dialogue" with an Old Troll was hopeless.

Ya...

When you've told someone that you don't need external validation and they wonder why you won't attempt to validate yourself externally....that's about as hopeless as they can get...

 

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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DUEL AT HIGH NOON CALLED OFF ON ACCOUNT OF...EXTERNAL VALIDATION

redneF wrote:

zarathustra wrote:
RedNerf's grip of the painfully obvious was tighter than Elvis' belt after a Vegas buffet.

Good one!

 

zarathustra wrote:
It had only taken him !#$@2 times to realize that "meaningful personal dialogue" with an Old Troll was hopeless.

Ya...

When you've told someone that you don't need external validation and they wonder why you won't attempt to validate yourself externally....that's about as hopeless as they can get...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

red,

 

Really?  So that represents the "mister bigg" of hopeless huh.  You don't need "external validation" and I wonder why you won't try to "validate yourself externally"?  Ok, I see it now - that is the ultimate black hole of hopelessness.  

You guys march out with both guns blazing ready to square off with God and somebody wonders why you won't try to "validate yourself externally" and that's it, party over, end of discussion, out'a here.  

A little validation stress is good for a guy.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


jcgadfly
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Fonzie wrote:redneF

Fonzie wrote:

redneF wrote:

zarathustra wrote:
RedNerf's grip of the painfully obvious was tighter than Elvis' belt after a Vegas buffet.

Good one!

 

zarathustra wrote:
It had only taken him !#$@2 times to realize that "meaningful personal dialogue" with an Old Troll was hopeless.

Ya...

When you've told someone that you don't need external validation and they wonder why you won't attempt to validate yourself externally....that's about as hopeless as they can get...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

red,

 

Really?  So that represents the "mister bigg" of hopeless huh.  You don't need "external validation" and I wonder why you won't try to "validate yourself externally"?  Ok, I see it now - that is the ultimate black hole of hopelessness.  

You guys march out with both guns blazing ready to square off with God and somebody wonders why you won't try to "validate yourself externally" and that's it, party over, end of discussion, out'a here.  

A little validation stress is good for a guy.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then why haven't you done it yet, meph?

You say Jesus works for you but don't say how (or use a lot of buzzwords that do little more than not answer the question). You ask us how not needing Jesus works for us, we tell you. Then you insist no one has answered your question.

And speaking of questions...why, look, this one's still unanswered.

Quote:

Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found hereseveralth + 38± µ3 time

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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PRESS ON O' ATHEIST - PRESS ON TO NOWHERE

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

redneF wrote:

zarathustra wrote:
RedNerf's grip of the painfully obvious was tighter than Elvis' belt after a Vegas buffet.

Good one!

 

zarathustra wrote:
It had only taken him !#$@2 times to realize that "meaningful personal dialogue" with an Old Troll was hopeless.

Ya...

When you've told someone that you don't need external validation and they wonder why you won't attempt to validate yourself externally....that's about as hopeless as they can get...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

red,

 

Really?  So that represents the "mister bigg" of hopeless huh.  You don't need "external validation" and I wonder why you won't try to "validate yourself externally"?  Ok, I see it now - that is the ultimate black hole of hopelessness.  

You guys march out with both guns blazing ready to square off with God and somebody wonders why you won't try to "validate yourself externally" and that's it, party over, end of discussion, out'a here.  

A little validation stress is good for a guy.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then why haven't you done it yet, meph?

You say Jesus works for you but don't say how (or use a lot of buzzwords that do little more than not answer the question). You ask us how not needing Jesus works for us, we tell you. Then you insist no one has answered your question.

And speaking of questions...why, look, this one's still unanswered.

 

Quote:

Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found hereseveralth + 38± µ3 time

 

 

 

Tiring fly,  

 

I HAVE validated myself fly, but not with you - that validation doesn't concern me nor should it.  How much sense would it make if it did?  You have been all over the place in the different "roles" you have come on here with.  One minute you are the Bible scholar, the next minute blasphemy drips from your nose and mouth.  You wink and scrape and point with your finger. You are the personal "wave" (Popeil pocket model), never at rest, no clear direction, trash afloat. 

And, OH CONTRAIRE - I HAVE said how Jesus works for me again and again - but you don't have an open ear to hear it, eye to see it, or heart to accept.  You could.  You haven't.

You have NOT told me how your life works without God with any plan, perspective or direction.  All you have described has been how you are wiling to live without submitting to God or believing in God - and the simple minded worship of self is preferred instead.  Then to cloud this fact to yourself you project your repressed and denied attitudes on me.  Then you adorn all this with further disregard and abandon, firebrands and arrows and death.  But death and life after death is not a consideration nor is any difference between man and animals discerned by you with any profit of thought.  Your bread of life is not bread and the result is not life.  But you are determined to not have Life that is Life indeed - that I WILL grant you.  And you may be successful in achieving what you are determined to have.

We've discussed all this fly and as I said you can't awake a guy who only pretends to sleep.  Take the opportunity to see yourself and say, "I know that man"!  Take a courageous step toward putting up the "VACANCY" sign and admitting the Guest at the door.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

redneF wrote:

zarathustra wrote:
RedNerf's grip of the painfully obvious was tighter than Elvis' belt after a Vegas buffet.

Good one!

 

zarathustra wrote:
It had only taken him !#$@2 times to realize that "meaningful personal dialogue" with an Old Troll was hopeless.

Ya...

When you've told someone that you don't need external validation and they wonder why you won't attempt to validate yourself externally....that's about as hopeless as they can get...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

red,

 

Really?  So that represents the "mister bigg" of hopeless huh.  You don't need "external validation" and I wonder why you won't try to "validate yourself externally"?  Ok, I see it now - that is the ultimate black hole of hopelessness.  

You guys march out with both guns blazing ready to square off with God and somebody wonders why you won't try to "validate yourself externally" and that's it, party over, end of discussion, out'a here.  

A little validation stress is good for a guy.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then why haven't you done it yet, meph?

You say Jesus works for you but don't say how (or use a lot of buzzwords that do little more than not answer the question). You ask us how not needing Jesus works for us, we tell you. Then you insist no one has answered your question.

And speaking of questions...why, look, this one's still unanswered.

 

Quote:

Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found hereseveralth + 38± µ3 time

 

 

 

Tiring fly,  

 

I HAVE validated myself fly, but not with you - that validation doesn't concern me nor should it.  How much sense would it make if it did?  You have been all over the place in the different "roles" you have come on here with.  One minute you are the Bible scholar, the next minute blasphemy drips from your nose and mouth.  You wink and scrape and point with your finger. You are the personal "wave" (Popeil pocket model), never at rest, no clear direction, trash afloat. 

And, OH CONTRAIRE - I HAVE said how Jesus works for me again and again - but you don't have an open ear to hear it, eye to see it, or heart to accept.  You could.  You haven't.

You have NOT told me how your life works without God with any plan, perspective or direction.  All you have described has been how you are wiling to live without submitting to God or believing in God - and the simple minded worship of self is preferred instead.  Then to cloud this fact to yourself you project your repressed and denied attitudes on me.  Then you adorn all this with further disregard and abandon, firebrands and arrows and death.  But death and life after death is not a consideration nor is any difference between man and animals discerned by you with any profit of thought.  Your bread of life is not bread and the result is not life.  But you are determined to not have Life that is Life indeed - that I WILL grant you.  And you may be successful in achieving what you are determined to have.

We've discussed all this fly and as I said you can't awake a guy who only pretends to sleep.  Take the opportunity to see yourself and say, "I know that man"!  Take a courageous step toward putting up the "VACANCY" sign and admitting the Guest at the door.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh joy, a variant of the "If I told you you wouldn't believe it anyway" defense. What a great way to cover a lie. 

Supposedly Jesus was sinless. To be sinless he certainly wouldn't have been afraid of the truth, would he?

Be Christlike and answer this question truthfully. Or don't you have Jesus in you as you claim you do?

Quote:

Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found hereseveralth + 38± µ3 time

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Hi, Fonzie

Hi, Fonzie.

I think the crux of what your saying is: "I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody."

I was a born-again christian but started changing my view after "separating" from church.

Now, I enjoy looking at the world as science sees it and can't see myself believing in something that's not provable.

Although I do think your fooling yourself, that's where you are in your life and I respect that.

IMO, Atheism is a statement saying that there are no gods, supported by what science shows us. It's not a religion/gospel, just the truth.

What science also offers us is the knowledge that what we know so far is that which is true and that makes me happy.

It's exiting to know that there are much more to learn.

The purpose here is to discuss topics which are of interest to Atheists.

Cheers.


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(Poe)

An overweight and jaundiced proletarian waddled into the classroom, eager to show he was the academic equivalent of the good little children. Perhaps channeling the blindness of his namesake, he ignored the infinitely long epic of the children’s struggle with the Old Troll. The portly proletarian began spewing donut crumbs over the children’s freshly polished floor, and the Old Troll, enticed by the scent, crawled back out of the sewer.

The children looked at one another in askance, … they recalled what Elvis said in the scriptures:  “Everything in Moderation”...yet no matter how often they asked

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 40± µ3 time
,

there was no Moderating influence to be found.


 

There are no theists on operating tables.

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Adventures

Fonzie wrote:

 

Take a courageous step toward putting up the "VACANCY" sign and admitting the Guest at the door.

 

 

in stupid evangelical jargon. What are you talking about, Fonz. What is a heart? What is a vacancy of a heart? What you are really saying is stop trying to think and instead convince yourself the undefinable, unprovable and unknowable is true.

And how is that Ray Comfort with his little game of ad hominem. What an arse. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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TWO FINDS - TWO FAITHS

butterbattle wrote:

Hmm, I still like the question, "If Christianity was proven to be false, would you still be a Christian?" or "Which do you value more: truth or your beliefs?"

 

butt,

We are in a sea of lies and false information with false proofs - plus a sea of conflicting desires with those desires causing collisions.  We have the challenge of finding what we are looking for in the same sea.  I have found what proves itself to me more and more constantly, which is Christ.  While I can't prove Him to you vicariously He is proving Himself to me.  But the converse is true - you can't disprove Him.  Neither can you prove your "find" in this world to me.  Your "find" and fly's "find" actually seem empty to me like a distorted picture instead of real substance.      

I can't prove "myself" to you either - nor can you prove "yourself" to me.  I don't think I react emotionally to you just because of the atheist title - but I am secure in Christ's substance and Words as I consider your empty attacks.  What He has said has proved to be true solid foundation material.  It began with a little faith in Him, but it has grown to full assurance.  

So, my answer to the first question is:  You can't prove Christianity to be false any more than I can "prove" it to you.  I can only offer it as what is real to me and why.  You can attack it but not disprove it - especially when it proves itself to me every moment.

 

 

 

Ok, the old "which do I value more, truth or my beliefs".  Jesus claims to be "the Way, Truth, Life, Light", etc.  I believe He is all that and more.  My faith is my connection to the truth.  So they are both inseparable in value.  This is just a trick question we have discussed before.  It is framed in such a way that it can't be answered "A" or "B" without accepting a false premise.  It's like the question; "Are you going to stop beating your wife?"  (A) Yes  (B) No.  You see the question is framed in such a way that the premise is the trap.  

I'm not trying to "trap" anybody into faith in Christ.  I am saying I have real solid joy in faith in Christ, light and instruction from the Bible, and what I believe and am fully assured is joy in fellowship with God and Christ in my heart, mind and soul.  It works for me with no bad side effects and gets better every day.  I'm offering what I can only offer but not prove - just like everybody else on this forum.  

There have been some atheists fooling themselves into thinking their position is all reason when in reality there is faith involved in their position too.  For one  thing they believe themselves and believe IN themselves.  They can't prove that their belief is fact based to you or me.  You have to share their faith in themselves to accept it.  Then, they have faith in other men who also can't prove themselves "scientifically" either.  But I haven't seen much depth in the "find" of faith by the self-faith presentation.  I think I'm spoiled by the green pastures and still waters of my find - the Good Shepherd.  

So my solid conviction is that you're missing out.  What I have found is faith based just like what you have found - but mine is far better in my opinion.  I can't prove it to you, but I'm totally convinced myself.  

 

 

 

 

 


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The Logic, The Troll, and The Medicine Cabinet

The Troll simpered with frustration, for It could not convince the good little children of Its imaginary friend. It could not accept the Logic that Elvis had taught them, nor could It share with them the voices It heard in its dandruff-encrusted cranium.  High-sodium tears dripped from its glaucomatic eyes.  

It downed another bottle of expired Lithium; the sad feelings faded away, and the happy voice of its imaginary friend returned.

In soothing tones, the Imaginary Voice told It that further discussion was useless, and it should spend Its imitation-golden years elsewhere.  Especially if it refused to answer

Quote:

Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 41± µ3 time

 

The Troll bobble-headed in agreement, and took Its leave.

 

There are no theists on operating tables.

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I

Quote:
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
Hello Fonzie. I see just an emotional attachment, there.
Quote:
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
The gospel of no gospel. Being that good, evil, and a lot of other things are not absolute, the understanding changes over time. Fooling yourself? I would say yes. Not really happy? Probably sometimes. Don't believe you? Sort of.
Quote:
The followers all have faults, true, but there is no flaw in the Sacrifice, the Lamb of God.
The fault IS the sacrifice itself. What a gross and primitive thing for a big guy like that (which btw is exactly what one would expect from primitive people elaborating that story, just saying).
Quote:
I've read that crap and about lives of some top dogs like Freud - what a joke.
Freud is not a joke -- don't listen to french people. Also I'd like to remind you that Freud was like a century ago, and that from that time psychology (altough Freud was a psychoanalyst) moved on quite a bit. I hope you made some additional effort than reading like one book...
Quote:
I have found what proves itself to me more and more constantly, which is Christ.
Don't you think that last word is not correct? Christ means messiah, and I have like an encyclopedia of them, so it's not very univocal. *Jesus* is the name of that guy everyone speak of in the gospels.
Quote:
I can only offer it as what is real to me and why.
Yeah, pretty weak if you think about it. The creator of the universe (what about if there are more than one universe?), the creator of space and time, of everything, and the only evidence/proof you have is personal. I know this has been told to you countless times, but still I find it stunning.
Quote:
You can attack it but not disprove it - especially when it proves itself to me every moment.
The same is for us. Everything, every moment tells us that the contrary. So it's still a matter of interpretation. It's your brain that counts.


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HELLO LUCA

luca wrote:
Quote:
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
Hello Fonzie. I see just an emotional attachment, there.
Quote:
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
The gospel of no gospel. Being that good, evil, and a lot of other things are not absolute, the understanding changes over time. Fooling yourself? I would say yes. Not really happy? Probably sometimes. Don't believe you? Sort of.
Quote:
The followers all have faults, true, but there is no flaw in the Sacrifice, the Lamb of God.
The fault IS the sacrifice itself. What a gross and primitive thing for a big guy like that (which btw is exactly what one would expect from primitive people elaborating that story, just saying).
Quote:
I've read that crap and about lives of some top dogs like Freud - what a joke.
Freud is not a joke -- don't listen to french people. Also I'd like to remind you that Freud was like a century ago, and that from that time psychology (altough Freud was a psychoanalyst) moved on quite a bit. I hope you made some additional effort than reading like one book...
Quote:
I have found what proves itself to me more and more constantly, which is Christ.
Don't you think that last word is not correct? Christ means messiah, and I have like an encyclopedia of them, so it's not very univocal. *Jesus* is the name of that guy everyone speak of in the gospels.
Quote:
I can only offer it as what is real to me and why.
Yeah, pretty weak if you think about it. The creator of the universe (what about if there are more than one universe?), the creator of space and time, of everything, and the only evidence/proof you have is personal. I know this has been told to you countless times, but still I find it stunning.
Quote:
You can attack it but not disprove it - especially when it proves itself to me every moment.
The same is for us. Everything, every moment tells us that the contrary. So it's still a matter of interpretation. It's your brain that counts.

 

 

 

 

 

luca,

I don't agree with you in any part but I appreciate the way you say it here - you are a respectful tribute to your position.  I respectfully and totally disagree but this is more like discussion.

You mention offering what is real to me being pretty weak - you don't know enough about me to add any weight.  You don't have much reason to have confidence in me I know so I offer it for your consideration. 

This is the way it started out with faith in Jesus - small seed - but now biggest thing in life to me and growing.  

As far as emotional change - no.  I'm not an emotional surfer, I don't trust emotions for building on.  Faith is a different fire.  I have fed it and applied and tried it.  It's a reliable thing when the focus of faith is reliable, is Jesus, because Jesus proves true.

i am really happy and it's a sustained happiness.  

I don't believe the Freud approach is successful in being freed from the demons.  The new birth in Christ can be and has been in my case.  (I assume you know I mean Jesus Christ when I say "Christ" though technically yes His name is Jesus)

Primitive?  There are a lot of primitive things going on these days from lack of acceptance of the Gospel.  

What you find in life if right should be able to prove itself every moment - even in the moment of death.  I am confident that what "works for me" in life will work for me in death too - as promised.  You don't get much practice.  

 

 

 


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NEWS FLASH OF SUBSTANCE FROM FLY #526

jcgadfly wrote:

Hi guys - was on a computer-free hiatus with family.

So God wrote and directed your movie, eh Fonzie/Meph? You do realize that that means he didn't do all that much for you, right? Unless you believe that you are merely a drone that he moves for his amusement, you are still the active force in your life. You interpret the script as it seems reasonable to you, even going off book as you've done here when topics get uncomfortable for you.

As for death holding no terrors for me, I stand by my statement. Death is a natural process. I don't fear natural processes. However, this doesn't mean I have a death wish. I'd like to live a long life. If it doesn't happen, I won't be blaming a god or worrying that I didn't kiss his butt the correct way.

It's people like you I worry about most. I don't fear you but I am concerned for your welfare. You simultaneously fear death and ardently desire it. You fear it because you think you might not have done enough to avoid eternal torment. You can't wait for it because you believe in the afterlife of bliss and want to leave the messes of this world (some of which you contributed to).

This is the attitude that makes suicide bombers.

Your vid was pulled for terms of use violations so I didn't see it.

Why do you fear and love death as you do?

 

Fly,

 

Ok, so this is #526 your next example that refutes the accusation that you have not answered with atheist substance.  So this is substance............. 

First, who has the arrogant position Fly?  I say God holds the Script, the Plan.  He is the Architect - and, yes, if He wants to move me around He can and I understand that whatever He does is Good.  But you - Fly - who don't even know where you came from or where you are going feel cavalier about dissing God from your lofty perch in the cow pasture.  That idiocy is supposed to represent courage and you mistake no apparent current judgment served for something other than kindness.  

Next, your inspiring substance of your being alive & aware of certain death and blowing about no concerns over it.  That's substance you share with Bessy the cow.  I remember the college president saying the only difference between the cud chewing cow and the gum chewing freshman was the more intelligent expression on the face of the cow.  How do you apply the substance here?  Well, there's the breakthrough flash that death is a natural process!  I hadn't thought of that lately Fly. And I guess it appears you would like to live long disrespectfully in spite of the process being propelled through life by said non existent substance.  

I don't believe you worry about me Fly, but nice try.  There's nothing in your form of substance that would cause you to worry about me.  But stick with the process if you insist.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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EVEN ATHEISTS SHOULDN'T FOOL THEMSELVES IN MATTERS OF FAITH

FMStereo wrote:

Hi, Fonzie.

I think the crux of what your saying is: "I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody."

I was a born-again christian but started changing my view after "separating" from church.

Now, I enjoy looking at the world as science sees it and can't see myself believing in something that's not provable.

Although I do think your fooling yourself, that's where you are in your life and I respect that.

IMO, Atheism is a statement saying that there are no gods, supported by what science shows us. It's not a religion/gospel, just the truth.

What science also offers us is the knowledge that what we know so far is that which is true and that makes me happy.

It's exiting to know that there are much more to learn.

The purpose here is to discuss topics which are of interest to Atheists.

Cheers.

 

 

FM,

 

You are right that I see God and Jesus and the Word of God  through the eyes of faith and I can't prove them to you - however They prove themselves to me every moment and I am being honest with myself and you.

At one point all Israel were delivered from Egypt, were baptized in the Red Sea and in the Cloud and were wandering in the wilderness where God was trying to teach flying lessons of faith.  Their bread came from heaven every day, they got water from the Rock - but very few crossed over into the Promised Land due to their lack of faith.  They had every reason to learn faith, but didn't.  They couldn't achieve lift off with their faith - as appears to be the case with you.  

Now you say you are flying not by faith but by solid proof?  

FM, you are fooling yourself.  Your "IMO" signifies faith in yourself - which you can't prove to me or even to yourself.  It's just a faith you have.  Your reliance on science represents faith in the scientists - which wows you in some way but in reality you can't prove (and science frequently flip flops on itself).  So in reality you are still (like all atheists on this forum) simply  living by faith - just not faith in the God of the Bible (which I have stated many times I have total faith in}, and in His Son Jesus the Christ.  

So we have different faiths.  But don't fool yourself that you have something other than faith.  You just have faith in something other than God.

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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The Old Troll blathered on at the emptiness around It, desperate for even the tiniest morsel.  Yet much to Its frustration, each child in turn refused Its dishonest overtures.  Its worm-eaten brain could not understand that the good little children would feed it no more.  None were interested in feeding a dishonest Troll that would not answer

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 42.1± µ3 time

The Old Troll croaked in panic as Its dopamine receptors crusted over.  Its bladder rattled like a broken maraca as Its kidney stones grew to monstrous size.  It knew Its trollery was coming to an end, and that Its only option was to swallow the bitter pill: 

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 42.2± µ3 time

Its pacemaker began to pulse erratically, pounding out in semaphore the simple demand:  "Just answer the question!  JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION!"

The Old Troll prayed to a nonexistent Mod to put it out of its misery.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


luca
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they were 300 young and strong...

Fonzie wrote:
luca,

I don't agree with you in any part but I appreciate the way you say it here - you are a respectful tribute to your position.  I respectfully and totally disagree but this is more like discussion.

You mention offering what is real to me being pretty weak - you don't know enough about me to add any weight.  You don't have much reason to have confidence in me I know so I offer it for your consideration. 

This is the way it started out with faith in Jesus - small seed - but now biggest thing in life to me and growing.  

As far as emotional change - no.  I'm not an emotional surfer, I don't trust emotions for building on.  Faith is a different fire.  I have fed it and applied and tried it.  It's a reliable thing when the focus of faith is reliable, is Jesus, because Jesus proves true.

i am really happy and it's a sustained happiness.  

I don't believe the Freud approach is successful in being freed from the demons.  The new birth in Christ can be and has been in my case.  (I assume you know I mean Jesus Christ when I say "Christ" though technically yes His name is Jesus)

Primitive?  There are a lot of primitive things going on these days from lack of acceptance of the Gospel.  

What you find in life if right should be able to prove itself every moment - even in the moment of death.  I am confident that what "works for me" in life will work for me in death too - as promised.  You don't get much practice.

 

Let not my manners speak in a wrong way of me: I don't believe (as in atheist 'I don't believe'), and I don't acknowledge the things you do, probably in any way. The only reason why I sometimes try to speak to some theist (christian or not), is that I want to understand how the life on the other side of the barricade is, and how much sense it makes.

If I don't know much about you it's mainly because you don't open yourself much... But maybe people here asked in the wrong way. Still, it seems to be a common problem with certain characters. In the end it's you that said "it all didn't make sense until a certain point", have I not the right to doubt it was an emotional event? You can bet I'm not saying it was all right there, I never excluded it effectively started from a small seed.

So when you say "faith is reliable" I'm asking "what is being reliable?", what is the subject? And I mean really the subject itself, what is faith, what are 'its' properties? You speak of it like it's acting on you... Maybe even communicating?

You criticize me when I say "it's weak", but admit it, it's a pretty big dissonant thing to say there is a divinity and this divinity (absolute divinity, by the way) acts in this... feeble way. I would expect more absolute from you, I don't know, maybe more confidence, somewhat like... "There's a god, guys, I mean, we should be happy about that, we are ok now", and instead it remains a difference for just you... Maybe a big difference, ok, but still something doesn't sound right with that.

Now I admit I would feel more confortable if talked about "demons" with the word surrounded by those things that say "it's a metaphor"; I hope you just forgot them... In any case Freud was almost a century ago, I mean, his theories are kept as a foundation, but a lot has been built on top of it, expecially because he did not understood neurology and neuropsychology like we do. He had to cope with his problems decidedly more empirically than modern therapists. So the thing that you (apparently) tried psychoanalysis ('the Freud approach'?) and failed tells me two things: one, that probably it's your fault (not Freud's), and two, that in some way emotions (or feelings) have to do with your case.

Primitive... the lack of acceptance of the Gospel? Well, since I find this more recent biblic part inadequate to our society and since I observed other methods to work better, I'd take my chance and say 'no'. It's a bit too absolute for my tastes.

What you find is valid in life should prove itself every moment... in life. Death is different than life, so without experience of death you wouldn't know what to do in death. Not that the problems is so present to me, being death "the end". In fact I think that a theist who believes in life after death should not call the death 'death', because it would be like, dunno, a travel?

 


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...listening to the squeals of joy that rose from the playground, Elvis realized that this joy was always under threat. For He knew that this glee club was forgetful, and that one can read in a thread thousands of posts long, that the Troll cooties never die or disappear; that they can hide for days or even weeks, sleeping below the fold or off the first page, that they wait patiently, in nursing homes, crematories, and bibles, in Lithium bottles and colostomy bags, and that perhaps the day would come when, for the bane and the distraction of freethinkers, the Troll cooties would reawaken Their christcancer and send it forth once more to metastasize on the posts of a dead thread... 

 

Luca (who still lived on the 2nd floor), had not followed the prescribed regimen of reading through the entire thread, and hence was not fully inoculated to the Troll cooties.  Thus she did not realize how pointless and wasteful it was to feed a Troll Who refused to answer the simple question

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 43± µ3 time


So just as the Troll had been about to succumb to Its case of shingles and crumble away into nothingness, she tossed It a few errant scraps.
And all the good little children groaned as they heard Its diseased gums flap around the fresh crumbs, and braced for yet another lithium-tinged spew of nonsense.

Meanwhile, the nonexistent Mods feasted on pineapple, far removed from the lowly affairs of the children.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


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ZARATHUSTRA THE AMERICAN IDOL

zarathustra wrote:

The Old Troll blathered on at the emptiness around It, desperate for even the tiniest morsel.  Yet much to Its frustration, each child in turn refused Its dishonest overtures.  Its worm-eaten brain could not understand that the good little children would feed it no more.  None were interested in feeding a dishonest Troll that would not answer

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 42.1± µ3 time

The Old Troll croaked in panic as Its dopamine receptors crusted over.  Its bladder rattled like a broken maraca as Its kidney stones grew to monstrous size.  It knew Its trollery was coming to an end, and that Its only option was to swallow the bitter pill: 

Quote:
Did you create the "what faith you" thread? That would be the thread titled "what faith you"; created by the user named "mephibosheth" on September 6, 2007 - 5:57pm, and which can be found here. severalth + 42.2± µ3 time

Its pacemaker began to pulse erratically, pounding out in semaphore the simple demand:  "Just answer the question!  JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION!"

The Old Troll prayed to a nonexistent Mod to put it out of its misery.

 

Zara's audition came on with false confidence

and disgraceful deafening dingling dang dissonance 

ere he blared in the air

and he howled in the bowel

and his ego was carried but higher and higher and how

he was good to his mom and his aunt and the mirror

and his singing for profit propelled with bad ears and maybe two beers

Paula held her head fast  and Randy no dog dog dog

Louis couldn't stop laughing - then Simon guffawed

you can sing said who and you can prove it with reason?  

them that what told you could should be in for treason.  

oo ah  oo ah oo ah dingly dee

Zara Zara bo Bara Zara Bonana fanna fo Fara Fee fy mo Mara Zara!  

It's 4 no no no nos and don't quit your day job

 

 

 

 

 

 


luca
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EDIT

zarathustra wrote:
Luca (who still lived on the 2nd floor)
2nd floor? I'd say 'underground'.

 

Also, this could interest someone:

I'm here to help.

 


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ROW ROW ROW THE BOAT - BUT GET HELP

luca wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
luca,

I don't agree with you in any part but I appreciate the way you say it here - you are a respectful tribute to your position.  I respectfully and totally disagree but this is more like discussion.

You mention offering what is real to me being pretty weak - you don't know enough about me to add any weight.  You don't have much reason to have confidence in me I know so I offer it for your consideration. 

This is the way it started out with faith in Jesus - small seed - but now biggest thing in life to me and growing.  

As far as emotional change - no.  I'm not an emotional surfer, I don't trust emotions for building on.  Faith is a different fire.  I have fed it and applied and tried it.  It's a reliable thing when the focus of faith is reliable, is Jesus, because Jesus proves true.

i am really happy and it's a sustained happiness.  

I don't believe the Freud approach is successful in being freed from the demons.  The new birth in Christ can be and has been in my case.  (I assume you know I mean Jesus Christ when I say "Christ" though technically yes His name is Jesus)

Primitive?  There are a lot of primitive things going on these days from lack of acceptance of the Gospel.  

What you find in life if right should be able to prove itself every moment - even in the moment of death.  I am confident that what "works for me" in life will work for me in death too - as promised.  You don't get much practice.

 

Let not my manners speak in a wrong way of me: I don't believe (as in atheist 'I don't believe'), and I don't acknowledge the things you do, probably in any way. The only reason why I sometimes try to speak to some theist (christian or not), is that I want to understand how the life on the other side of the barricade is, and how much sense it makes.

If I don't know much about you it's mainly because you don't open yourself much... But maybe people here asked in the wrong way. Still, it seems to be a common problem with certain characters. In the end it's you that said "it all didn't make sense until a certain point", have I not the right to doubt it was an emotional event? You can bet I'm not saying it was all right there, I never excluded it effectively started from a small seed.

So when you say "faith is reliable" I'm asking "what is being reliable?", what is the subject? And I mean really the subject itself, what is faith, what are 'its' properties? You speak of it like it's acting on you... Maybe even communicating?

You criticize me when I say "it's weak", but admit it, it's a pretty big dissonant thing to say there is a divinity and this divinity (absolute divinity, by the way) acts in this... feeble way. I would expect more absolute from you, I don't know, maybe more confidence, somewhat like... "There's a god, guys, I mean, we should be happy about that, we are ok now", and instead it remains a difference for just you... Maybe a big difference, ok, but still something doesn't sound right with that.

Now I admit I would feel more confortable if talked about "demons" with the word surrounded by those things that say "it's a metaphor"; I hope you just forgot them... In any case Freud was almost a century ago, I mean, his theories are kept as a foundation, but a lot has been built on top of it, expecially because he did not understood neurology and neuropsychology like we do. He had to cope with his problems decidedly more empirically than modern therapists. So the thing that you (apparently) tried psychoanalysis ('the Freud approach'?) and failed tells me two things: one, that probably it's your fault (not Freud's), and two, that in some way emotions (or feelings) have to do with your case.

Primitive... the lack of acceptance of the Gospel? Well, since I find this more recent biblic part inadequate to our society and since I observed other methods to work better, I'd take my chance and say 'no'. It's a bit too absolute for my tastes.

What you find is valid in life should prove itself every moment... in life. Death is different than life, so without experience of death you wouldn't know what to do in death. Not that the problems is so present to me, being death "the end". In fact I think that a theist who believes in life after death should not call the death 'death', because it would be like, dunno, a travel?

 

 

Luca,

It's good in all your getting to get understanding.  Even a wise counselor doesn't counsel himself - you can never see the "other side".  

There is a barricade between faith in the true God and faith in whatever else a person has faith in - starting with faith in his own perception of what he has faith in.  There is a door in this barricade - Jesus is the door.  In order to be able to draw near to God in faith you need to have done for you what only Jesus can do - cleanse you of sin, bring your soul to life, light your fire so to speak.  

Faith is to the spiritual what eyes are to the physical.  "Seeing" may not be believing - but all true believing is seeing.  By faith we "see" God, we "see" the Scriptures are true, we are enabled to be "born anew" into Christ and we are able to know we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us as a down payment of future inheritance.  It's not a cold business transaction however - God loves us.  

How is faith reliable?  Once you have your faith focused on Jesus and God rather than anything else it's the difference between "what works" and "what is" versus "smoke" and "mirrors".  On the surface it appears to make no sense that the King of Kings was crucified for His kingdom.  The gospel is foolishness to the wise of this world.  The entrance is low.  But if you persevere you find what you are really looking for.  

Through faith I am able to live in the presence of God every moment and fight off the devil's flaming arrows that attack faith. Faith is compared to a shield in the Bible.  The Word of God is compared to a sword.  I have both and they are reliable.  The sword is better than Damascus steel and sharper too.  The use of the shield is an exercise of faith - by fighting and finding out that some faith I thought I had wasn't real I lose nothing (just like gold loses nothing by removal of dross).  

As far as your comfort with the reality of "demons" - remember that I believe the Scriptures.  Jesus acknowledged demons - I don't care what Freud thought.  I don't have faith in him.  

As far as the bipolar.  I wonder if the atheists realize how little they look bringing up my bipolar as if it is some sort of disgrace to be mocked.  I view it as a blessing now though I didn't always see it that way.  It has sped up the experiment of life and helped me learn how to fight false thoughts and take them captive to the obedience of the Scriptures.  It has been a good spiritual workout.  The devil used to run the wheel over me and turn around and do it again (due to weakness of faith allowing despair) - but I have found through faith in Christ I can fight and in Christ I can whip his ass.  That's satisfying.  Understand I'm not saying I can do it myself - but in Christ I can.  It's kind of like a little 3 year old "helping" his dad row the boat.  It sounds like some atheists baled out of faith in God before they got their sea legs.  Was it lack of character?  Don't know - but I know the problem wasn't God because I have faith in God that busts through all such doubts and questionings.  You don't.  But you have your doubts and questionings and always will until you have faith in God and Jesus and are born anew. 

As to death, I don't view it as death.  It's more like sleep and waking up with God and Jesus.  It's like a boat over the horizon (about 15 miles) - you can't see it, but it's there.  I can't see those who died - but they're over the horizon.  Jesus has rescued me - through faith in Him and His Sacrifice and His Life in me - from bondage to the fear of death.  And it's not the rescue of Besse the cow who doesn't think about death, just eating.  It's the dissipation of all doubts and fears in the Light of faith in the LORD and His Word.  I trust the One who has gone there and come back.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:As far as the

Fonzie wrote:
As far as the bipolar.  I wonder if the atheists realize how little they look bringing up my bipolar as if it is some sort of disgrace to be mocked.

You mean back when people who had experience with the disease themselves urged you to get lithium levels checked, after your admission that you regulate your own medication ?

Yes, how "little" of them. How very much like "mocking".


luca
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Fonzie wrote:Luca,It's good

Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

It's good in all your getting to get understanding.  Even a wise counselor doesn't counsel himself - you can never see the "other side".  

There is a barricade between faith in the true God and faith in whatever else a person has faith in - starting with faith in his own perception of what he has faith in.  There is a door in this barricade - Jesus is the door.  In order to be able to draw near to God in faith you need to have done for you what only Jesus can do - cleanse you of sin, bring your soul to life, light your fire so to speak.  

Faith is to the spiritual what eyes are to the physical.  "Seeing" may not be believing - but all true believing is seeing.  By faith we "see" God, we "see" the Scriptures are true, we are enabled to be "born anew" into Christ and we are able to know we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us as a down payment of future inheritance.  It's not a cold business transaction however - God loves us.  

How is faith reliable?  Once you have your faith focused on Jesus and God rather than anything else it's the difference between "what works" and "what is" versus "smoke" and "mirrors".  On the surface it appears to make no sense that the King of Kings was crucified for His kingdom.  The gospel is foolishness to the wise of this world.  The entrance is low.  But if you persevere you find what you are really looking for.  

Through faith I am able to live in the presence of God every moment and fight off the devil's flaming arrows that attack faith. Faith is compared to a shield in the Bible.  The Word of God is compared to a sword.  I have both and they are reliable.  The sword is better than Damascus steel and sharper too.  The use of the shield is an exercise of faith - by fighting and finding out that some faith I thought I had wasn't real I lose nothing (just like gold loses nothing by removal of dross).  

As far as your comfort with the reality of "demons" - remember that I believe the Scriptures.  Jesus acknowledged demons - I don't care what Freud thought.  I don't have faith in him.  

As far as the bipolar.  I wonder if the atheists realize how little they look bringing up my bipolar as if it is some sort of disgrace to be mocked.  I view it as a blessing now though I didn't always see it that way.  It has sped up the experiment of life and helped me learn how to fight false thoughts and take them captive to the obedience of the Scriptures.  It has been a good spiritual workout.  The devil used to run the wheel over me and turn around and do it again (due to weakness of faith allowing despair) - but I have found through faith in Christ I can fight and in Christ I can whip his ass.  That's satisfying.  Understand I'm not saying I can do it myself - but in Christ I can.  It's kind of like a little 3 year old "helping" his dad row the boat.  It sounds like some atheists baled out of faith in God before they got their sea legs.  Was it lack of character?  Don't know - but I know the problem wasn't God because I have faith in God that busts through all such doubts and questionings.  You don't.  But you have your doubts and questionings and always will until you have faith in God and Jesus and are born anew. 

As to death, I don't view it as death.  It's more like sleep and waking up with God and Jesus.  It's like a boat over the horizon (about 15 miles) - you can't see it, but it's there.  I can't see those who died - but they're over the horizon.  Jesus has rescued me - through faith in Him and His Sacrifice and His Life in me - from bondage to the fear of death.  And it's not the rescue of Besse the cow who doesn't think about death, just eating.  It's the dissipation of all doubts and fears in the Light of faith in the LORD and His Word.  I trust the One who has gone there and come back.

Most of the time one effectively cannot see the other side of his opinions or even of more concrete things, but don't forget that sometimes it happens that one can go to other side and then turn back -- it happened here and practically in every other forum I've seen. But to be honest, I can tell you by my experience that with sufficient knowledge it's not needed to see "the other side", because as your learning of reality increases, you start to understand the forces that shaped our world, and so you can successfully guess what the other side is like (by the way my experience is named in this case 'backface culling', which shows also how often "the other side" is the same as the one you are seeing, making the one you don't see redundant, superfuous). Last thing, I hope you understand that as it usually happens the revelation is personal, so the only way around the 'barricade' is talking about you.

Now I am sorry for that, but some arguments will be repeated (since I already saw the answers to my actual questions). I think it probably cannot be avoided (the 'handshaking' is the 'handshaking'), and for example the first is, not surprisingly, faith. You seem to be comparing religious faith with non-religious faith. It's puzzling, in that they seem to have a different source, or better, to be two completely different faiths. Expecially because you intend the first one (religious faith) as a 'sense', not as 'confidence'.
This other thing about faith too, reliability, is at the moment not obscure but difficultly classifiable. You speak of it like it's the only thing that works all the time, while I don't know a machine could break, a process could interrupt... In short, every other thing can fail. But apparently you use it as more than just that, you use it as a meter to measure everything. And probably it doesn't stops there: I may be overthinking it, but some words let me think you think "if I have faith in it, it will work".

The gospel is not 100% taken as foolishness, in this world. In fact I think everbody agrees it helped (or even started) one of the most profound changes in society. What is said is only that it's two millenniums old and it pertains there. For non-believers. The other people, the 'uninterested' ones, simply say "it's cool not to hurt each other". That's how the situation reveals itself to me.
Instead, I see the problem in the verb "to persevere", but it probably is a story for another time.

Now ok, faith helps you to fight the 'devil's flaming arrows'. Past the metaphors, what are these arrows? Attacks to the doctrine? Or maybe vices?
Personally I think of the bible as a shield, as a 'defense instrument', instead of faith (or maybe both are). Yes, and this makes me think: had not a bible come to you, do you think you would believe in God? Would you know Jesus? And if instead of a bible another sacerd text came in you hands -- vedas, koran, doesn't matter -- do you think you would be happy as you are now? (Apparently this has to do with the 'small seed', if I don't get it wrong.)

I acknowledge that Jesus acknowledged demons, but what has it to do with Freud? His psychoanalysis is useful for curing people with mental pathologies (and by the way only a not even so big part of them). You know like see you parents die, being abused as a child, stress disorders like war... I don't see the connection with Freud.

I hope I'm being obvious if I say bipolarism is not to be mocked, but it is a disgrace in the sense that it's a problem, it shouldn't happen, it's not a normal condition. That it after may be helpful for some things, is indipendent from the fact (I think it is taken as a fact) that bipolarism is a pathology.
When you say "the devil run over me again and again" you mean that you could not avoid to repeat you errors?
Just a little ortographic problem: 'bale' (where you wrote "baled") is not exactly a endearing term, I suppose you meant 'bail'? (So that it was "bailed out".)
That said how do you think someone could reject faith in that way, so soon? How faith grows?
And what does mean 'I will always have doubts and questionings', in the sense, about what?

Well, we've ascertained death is not 'death', but a metaphorical boat. The point I would make is, however, that while it's true that the horizon is not reachable by me physically (I don't even know how to swim; I don't even float), it's still true that any place beyond that is still there, materially accessible. So I understand you using a metaphor for what you tried to express, but it's not really valid if in the end that "heavenly place" (hope it's the right name, all the others were pretty macabre, like "place of the deads"...) is not connected to you -- but I suppose I have to concede you a non-material drivable road (just tell me it's not a séance). But this pass will be granted for little time, the time you could take to formulate an answer (if it pleases you).
Also did I read between the lines that you had fear of death?
I would carefully note that while it's true that Bessie the cow (funny that -- btw where I live the name for cows is 'Carolina') passes her time to think about eating, if you try to kill her she will rebel against you, showing that in the end even she doesn't want to be killed. And what's more, chimpanzees and bonobos like Washoe and Kanzi showed an unexpected empathy and understanding of death, you're invited to read about them, about their "humanity".

One last thing: could you describe for me in a few words your impressions about your behavior in this thread?

Well, the ball is in your field. I tried to not put a lot of irons in the fire (and I may have forgot something!), but still every point in which you disagree or agree partially is worth discussing.


Fonzie
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COME IN OFF THE WATER AND WE'LL TALK

luca wrote:

 

Most of the time one effectively cannot see the other side of his opinions or even of more concrete things, but don't forget that sometimes it happens that one can go to other side and then turn back -- it happened here and practically in every other forum I've seen. But to be honest, I can tell you by my experience that with sufficient knowledge it's not needed to see "the other side", because as your learning of reality increases, you start to understand the forces that shaped our world, and so you can successfully guess what the other side is like (by the way my experience is named in this case 'backface culling', which shows also how often "the other side" is the same as the one you are seeing, making the one you don't see redundant, superfuous). Last thing, I hope you understand that as it usually happens the revelation is personal, so the only way around the 'barricade' is talking about you. Now I am sorry for that, but some arguments will be repeated (since I already saw the answers to my actual questions). I think it probably cannot be avoided (the 'handshaking' is the 'handshaking'), and for example the first is, not surprisingly, faith. You seem to be comparing religious faith with non-religious faith. It's puzzling, in that they seem to have a different source, or better, to be two completely different faiths. Expecially because you intend the first one (religious faith) as a 'sense', not as 'confidence'. This other thing about faith too, reliability, is at the moment not obscure but difficultly classifiable. You speak of it like it's the only thing that works all the time, while I don't know a machine could break, a process could interrupt... In short, every other thing can fail. But apparently you use it as more than just that, you use it as a meter to measure everything. And probably it doesn't stops there: I may be overthinking it, but some words let me think you think "if I have faith in it, it will work". The gospel is not 100% taken as foolishness, in this world. In fact I think everbody agrees it helped (or even started) one of the most profound changes in society. What is said is only that it's two millenniums old and it pertains there. For non-believers. The other people, the 'uninterested' ones, simply say "it's cool not to hurt each other". That's how the situation reveals itself to me. Instead, I see the problem in the verb "to persevere", but it probably is a story for another time. Now ok, faith helps you to fight the 'devil's flaming arrows'. Past the metaphors, what are these arrows? Attacks to the doctrine? Or maybe vices? Personally I think of the bible as a shield, as a 'defense instrument', instead of faith (or maybe both are). Yes, and this makes me think: had not a bible come to you, do you think you would believe in God? Would you know Jesus? And if instead of a bible another sacerd text came in you hands -- vedas, koran, doesn't matter -- do you think you would be happy as you are now? (Apparently this has to do with the 'small seed', if I don't get it wrong.) I acknowledge that Jesus acknowledged demons, but what has it to do with Freud? His psychoanalysis is useful for curing people with mental pathologies (and by the way only a not even so big part of them). You know like see you parents die, being abused as a child, stress disorders like war... I don't see the connection with Freud. I hope I'm being obvious if I say bipolarism is not to be mocked, but it is a disgrace in the sense that it's a problem, it shouldn't happen, it's not a normal condition. That it after may be helpful for some things, is indipendent from the fact (I think it is taken as a fact) that bipolarism is a pathology. When you say "the devil run over me again and again" you mean that you could not avoid to repeat you errors? Just a little ortographic problem: 'bale' (where you wrote "baled&quotEye-wink is not exactly a endearing term, I suppose you meant 'bail'? (So that it was "bailed out".) That said how do you think someone could reject faith in that way, so soon? How faith grows? And what does mean 'I will always have doubts and questionings', in the sense, about what? Well, we've ascertained death is not 'death', but a metaphorical boat. The point I would make is, however, that while it's true that the horizon is not reachable by me physically (I don't even know how to swim; I don't even float), it's still true that any place beyond that is still there, materially accessible. So I understand you using a metaphor for what you tried to express, but it's not really valid if in the end that "heavenly place" (hope it's the right name, all the others were pretty macabre, like "place of the deads"...) is not connected to you -- but I suppose I have to concede you a non-material drivable road (just tell me it's not a séance). But this pass will be granted for little time, the time you could take to formulate an answer (if it pleases you). Also did I read between the lines that you had fear of death? I would carefully note that while it's true that Bessie the cow (funny that -- btw where I live the name for cows is 'Carolina') passes her time to think about eating, if you try to kill her she will rebel against you, showing that in the end even she doesn't want to be killed. And what's more, chimpanzees and bonobos like Washoe and Kanzi showed an unexpected empathy and understanding of death, you're invited to read about them, about their "humanity". One last thing: could you describe for me in a few words your impressions about your behavior in this thread? Well, the ball is in your field. I tried to not put a lot of irons in the fire (and I may have forgot something!), but still every point in which you disagree or agree partially is worth discussing.

 

 

Luca,

 

It is true there is "one LORD, one faith and one baptism", but for precious things there are counterfeits.  I didn't mean that the "faith" of an atheist (his confidence in his own perception of life, science and providence) is actually "seeing the unseen" with an actual "god target" - but rather a "junk food" substitute that is like drinking seawater for thirst.  In order to "draw near to God" in faith there is need for the purifying that comes by Jesus' cleansing and Gift of undeserved grace through His substitutionary death.  There is also a need for the transformation from spiritual death to spiritual life that is the miracle of the new birth in Christ.  You can't actually draw near to God on your own brainpower or determination.  God has designed and designated Jesus as The Door, The Way to God.  "No one comes to the Father except by Me" (Jesus).  So true faith is a gift of God which enables us to see the truth of the gospel and be "born anew" then let off the gas and go into "overdrive".

Some of what I view as sophistry I don't get from your tome - which is a segue to the point that the gospel is an offense to some because it is "too simple" - there is a desire to design an intricate tapestry and float in on hot air.  

Bailed out, not baled out.  Actually those who have "bailed out" should have stayed "baled out" - when a man becomes aware of what his situation is with God he is chained in sin, imprisoned by sin.  Jesus is willing to "bale" us out.  As to "bailing out" of the new life of faith in Christ...there is the promise that God "disciplines every son He receives" - some might not accept discipline.  Faith is tested by fiery trials and like gold it isn't hurt by the removal of whatever isn't real.  It's logical some would quit the race not because it isn't a right and real race they can actually run, but because they view it as easier to quit or some other reason I don't want to know by experience - maybe they shipwreck because of a whorish temptation, I don't know.

Reliability.  I have total confidence in the God of the Bible, the God Who spoke the world into existence.  Everything He does is eternally right in every way.  I likely don't understand why something happens at all, but I know that whatever God is doing is right, because that's God.  He does everything perfect and right.  In the end we will all see this has been true.  Also we will see that "every Word of God proves true."  

You mentioned the gospel being used as a "self help" guide, or "10 steps to a happier life" or something, and in some way other than the way it is presented by God being somewhat respected by the world.  It isn't to be accepted on our terms.  

The devil attacks our faith with flaming arrows among other things.  The arrow he shot at Eve is revealed, "did God say you will die if you eat of the fruit?  You won't die, you will be wise like God."  It was a lying arrow shot from a deceitful bow.  He quoted scripture with a twist to the Savior - that was a lying arrow.  I live in a body that can be tempted with desires for carnal experiences and in a world of flammable gasses that could ignite at a spark.  The shield of faith needs to be in working order.

Once a man is enabled to have full assurance of faith in God and His Word - the principle of faith puts the questionings and attacks of man at rest.  Faith is a shield against these, faith puts these anxieties to rest.  "My peace I give to you - not as the world gives" - and as Jesus challenged the disciples who woke Him in the boat in the storm, "Where is your faith?" implying faith is the only thing that stood between them and peaceful sleep.  

Jesus acknowledged demons.  The pdocs don't.  I'll go with Jesus' perspective. I am conscious of ongoing war thought by thought.  I don't know for sure that the next real time thought is coming from Satan or my old nature or from the Spirit of God - but I stand watch and take it captive and see if it matches up with the Word of God.  The ear tastes words like the palate tastes food and through the Spirit of God I recognize my Master's voice - Freud's voice is Freud's voice and doesn't bother me along with the other pdocs.  God has written His law on our hearts through the Spirit such that we can know Him intimately.  "My sheep know My Voice".  

There isn't disgrace in having bipolar disorder - though affective disorder is painful and in the early experience mocking adds to the pain.  Bipolar disorder is genetic, not self-caused, so it's like mocking a person who has inherited deafness.   Fortunately with experience it is possible to develop a strength that is a defense against the mocking.  There is also strength in not being a mocker that keeps oneself from being touched by it.  It's comparable to a gossip themselves being worried most about what others think.  And how do you know it is not a normal condition.  It could just be a way in which we are all different.  In bipolar the life experience and experiment is speeded up - you learn to fight for the next thought.    

I have no fear of death now.  And I have no doubts that the cows are wise enough to know their master - which is a good thing for an atheist to consider.  

In a few words my conduct on this forum has been honest.  Faith in Jesus works for me, and I'm not kidding.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


luca
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hard times

Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

 

It is true there is "one LORD, one faith and one baptism", but for precious things there are counterfeits.  I didn't mean that the "faith" of an atheist (his confidence in his own perception of life, science and providence) is actually "seeing the unseen" with an actual "god target" - but rather a "junk food" substitute that is like drinking seawater for thirst.  In order to "draw near to God" in faith there is need for the purifying that comes by Jesus' cleansing and Gift of undeserved grace through His substitutionary death.  There is also a need for the transformation from spiritual death to spiritual life that is the miracle of the new birth in Christ.  You can't actually draw near to God on your own brainpower or determination.  God has designed and designated Jesus as The Door, The Way to God.  "No one comes to the Father except by Me" (Jesus).  So true faith is a gift of God which enables us to see the truth of the gospel and be "born anew" then let off the gas and go into "overdrive".

Some of what I view as sophistry I don't get from your tome - which is a segue to the point that the gospel is an offense to some because it is "too simple" - there is a desire to design an intricate tapestry and float in on hot air.  

Bailed out, not baled out.  Actually those who have "bailed out" should have stayed "baled out" - when a man becomes aware of what his situation is with God he is chained in sin, imprisoned by sin.  Jesus is willing to "bale" us out.  As to "bailing out" of the new life of faith in Christ...there is the promise that God "disciplines every son He receives" - some might not accept discipline.  Faith is tested by fiery trials and like gold it isn't hurt by the removal of whatever isn't real.  It's logical some would quit the race not because it isn't a right and real race they can actually run, but because they view it as easier to quit or some other reason I don't want to know by experience - maybe they shipwreck because of a whorish temptation, I don't know.

Reliability.  I have total confidence in the God of the Bible, the God Who spoke the world into existence.  Everything He does is eternally right in every way.  I likely don't understand why something happens at all, but I know that whatever God is doing is right, because that's God.  He does everything perfect and right.  In the end we will all see this has been true.  Also we will see that "every Word of God proves true."  

You mentioned the gospel being used as a "self help" guide, or "10 steps to a happier life" or something, and in some way other than the way it is presented by God being somewhat respected by the world.  It isn't to be accepted on our terms.  

The devil attacks our faith with flaming arrows among other things.  The arrow he shot at Eve is revealed, "did God say you will die if you eat of the fruit?  You won't die, you will be wise like God."  It was a lying arrow shot from a deceitful bow.  He quoted scripture with a twist to the Savior - that was a lying arrow.  I live in a body that can be tempted with desires for carnal experiences and in a world of flammable gasses that could ignite at a spark.  The shield of faith needs to be in working order.

Once a man is enabled to have full assurance of faith in God and His Word - the principle of faith puts the questionings and attacks of man at rest.  Faith is a shield against these, faith puts these anxieties to rest.  "My peace I give to you - not as the world gives" - and as Jesus challenged the disciples who woke Him in the boat in the storm, "Where is your faith?" implying faith is the only thing that stood between them and peaceful sleep.  

Jesus acknowledged demons.  The pdocs don't.  I'll go with Jesus' perspective. I am conscious of ongoing war thought by thought.  I don't know for sure that the next real time thought is coming from Satan or my old nature or from the Spirit of God - but I stand watch and take it captive and see if it matches up with the Word of God.  The ear tastes words like the palate tastes food and through the Spirit of God I recognize my Master's voice - Freud's voice is Freud's voice and doesn't bother me along with the other pdocs.  God has written His law on our hearts through the Spirit such that we can know Him intimately.  "My sheep know My Voice".  

There isn't disgrace in having bipolar disorder - though affective disorder is painful and in the early experience mocking adds to the pain.  Bipolar disorder is genetic, not self-caused, so it's like mocking a person who has inherited deafness.   Fortunately with experience it is possible to develop a strength that is a defense against the mocking.  There is also strength in not being a mocker that keeps oneself from being touched by it.  It's comparable to a gossip themselves being worried most about what others think.  And how do you know it is not a normal condition.  It could just be a way in which we are all different.  In bipolar the life experience and experiment is speeded up - you learn to fight for the next thought.    

I have no fear of death now.  And I have no doubts that the cows are wise enough to know their master - which is a good thing for an atheist to consider.  

In a few words my conduct on this forum has been honest.  Faith in Jesus works for me, and I'm not kidding.

There was a "language barrier" moment, but I think I understood what you said. Just a small parenthesis: why do you leave two spaces after the end of a paragraph, after a dot? Anyway, even if you said you don't see a "god target" in the "atheist faith", you still compare it to a "drinking seawater for thirst". But what is this "thirst"? I would object that a non-believer hasn't any (of this kind). Another point too would be that without this "faith" like in science (specifically printing and logistics) you may have not being able to even see a bible in your entire life. So admitting a subjugation in that way the "god target" would exists, and so... I leave the conclusions to you. But then I have so many questions. Why should I care that this Jesus is said to have died for me? Why should I care about this 'door'? If I remember well, you said (in general) "you are not ill? then you don't need a medic -- for analogy if you are ok you may not need Jesus", correct? But you are saying too that there's something... that you *have* to believe in Jesus, right? That's the impression I got. And continuing, why should I care about spiritual life? And would you say that the entire world, *together*, could "draw near to God"?

Excuse me but I don't understand the "I don't get from your tome" phrase. Apart from the fact that it seems grammatically a bit weird, I expecially don't understand what "design an intricate tapestry and float in on hot air" means. Could you rephrase that? Thanks.

Jumping for the moment the "man is chained in sin", there are really a bunch of things I'm not understanding. The use of the word 'bale' is an example, and then the "disciplines every son He receives": are you saying 'while in life'? That even without awareness of the christianity you are considered "to be disciplinated"? And you fail, well, "it sucks"?
About the "quitting reasons", would you admit the possibility that others simply may have found what you found somewhere else? That they are happy as you but not christians and so they don't need "to know Jesus"?

For the "everything God does is right": if this is true, then I mean... shouldn't the world look another way? I understand in this context "I may not know why something happens at all", but the point is this doesn't follow from "everything God does is right". Why try to explain things, why give definitions, why think at all if "everything is right" to begin with? Do you see what I mean?
It's also almost as saying "good and bad don't exists", because it's an act of God either way. There's even no meaning in "good" and "bad" at that point.

Now I don't say use the bible as a "self help guide". Someone obviously does, but that wasn't my point. I instead was talking about the non-christian that uses the bible (mainly the new testament) as a foundation for his morality, so using it as a definitive guide in your life without the godly part, only Jesus.

I would say it's not properly clear that it was the devil who deceived Eve, but you know, probably it's not even the biggest problem with that part. Instead I want to focus on the previous "is faith (and Jesus) necessary?" argument. Is faith really this 'key point' able to unlock the 'peaceful sleep'? How do you know? Even if repeatedly the bible showed true to you, how can you the next fact could be right, the 'peaceful sleep', for example? (or better, why apply this type of reasoning)
The other impression I get is that you are saying "faith is important to me and I don't care that you do not believe" but contemporaneously you say "you must believe because it's obviously the right thing to do" with something like "you (people of this forum) cannot (or never have been abel to) show you're right" in the middle.
And above all: what can you exclusively obtain from (christian) faith that is not reproducible without faith?

Well I cannot claim to know a lot of them but some theist pdocs existed and exist. If they pertain to a religion which acknowledge demons (which almost surely some do) you cannot say "the pdocs don't". I'm sorry for the concision and the straightforwardness but I just think your argument is ill-formed. If I really have to be honest I should ask you: did you read the psychology books with the attention you dedicate to the bible? That's absolutely not a small thing.
But I'm suddenly actracted from the fact you say your thoughts can come from "your old nature", the Spirit, or Satan. Could you be more explicit on this? Write all that you can, absolutely no limits, thanks.
It would be interesting to discuss about the "God has written His law on our hearts", it could be pretty long, though.

How can I know that bipolar disorder is not normal? Maybe because it's called 'disorder'? I think it's pretty loquacious term.

You have no fear of death. Nor I do. Good.
The cows are wise enough to know their master? I would not say so. Firstly, while it's true they are not indipendent animals (because their behavior has been modified by being forced to live with humans), they sure are not obedient like dogs. They don't need it because they are not a pack. They are more of a flock. Apart from that, you have to show to an animal that you are worthy -- continuously. It's not going to accept you unconditionally. This usually is true also for us.

You say you have been honest here. But would you say that sometimes you had not been able to limit yourself? How is it that so many people (here) are not glad for your answers? (I hope this is not going in an awful territory for you, but I deem it's important for me)
Jesus works for you. If you ask me, there are some details. Yes, it seems it's useful for you, but to claim it works 100% is something I don't believe. But I think that's obvious. It seems you are able to control yourself, you're able to control the bipolar disorder, but there's a lot more. Put it like this (you don't have to think it's related to you): would you prefer living well but in an illusion or slightly less well but in reality?

Okay so just another little thing: I saw this strange argument from a theist (not christian, or at least just in part), and I ask for your opinion. This guy said courtship (wooing in love, looking at wiki) is immoral. What do you think?


Fonzie
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NECESSARILY INCOMPLETE RESPONSE

luca wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

 

It is true there is "one LORD, one faith and one baptism", but for precious things there are counterfeits.  I didn't mean that the "faith" of an atheist (his confidence in his own perception of life, science and providence) is actually "seeing the unseen" with an actual "god target" - but rather a "junk food" substitute that is like drinking seawater for thirst.  In order to "draw near to God" in faith there is need for the purifying that comes by Jesus' cleansing and Gift of undeserved grace through His substitutionary death.  There is also a need for the transformation from spiritual death to spiritual life that is the miracle of the new birth in Christ.  You can't actually draw near to God on your own brainpower or determination.  God has designed and designated Jesus as The Door, The Way to God.  "No one comes to the Father except by Me" (Jesus).  So true faith is a gift of God which enables us to see the truth of the gospel and be "born anew" then let off the gas and go into "overdrive".

Some of what I view as sophistry I don't get from your tome - which is a segue to the point that the gospel is an offense to some because it is "too simple" - there is a desire to design an intricate tapestry and float in on hot air.  

Bailed out, not baled out.  Actually those who have "bailed out" should have stayed "baled out" - when a man becomes aware of what his situation is with God he is chained in sin, imprisoned by sin.  Jesus is willing to "bale" us out.  As to "bailing out" of the new life of faith in Christ...there is the promise that God "disciplines every son He receives" - some might not accept discipline.  Faith is tested by fiery trials and like gold it isn't hurt by the removal of whatever isn't real.  It's logical some would quit the race not because it isn't a right and real race they can actually run, but because they view it as easier to quit or some other reason I don't want to know by experience - maybe they shipwreck because of a whorish temptation, I don't know.

Reliability.  I have total confidence in the God of the Bible, the God Who spoke the world into existence.  Everything He does is eternally right in every way.  I likely don't understand why something happens at all, but I know that whatever God is doing is right, because that's God.  He does everything perfect and right.  In the end we will all see this has been true.  Also we will see that "every Word of God proves true."  

You mentioned the gospel being used as a "self help" guide, or "10 steps to a happier life" or something, and in some way other than the way it is presented by God being somewhat respected by the world.  It isn't to be accepted on our terms.  

The devil attacks our faith with flaming arrows among other things.  The arrow he shot at Eve is revealed, "did God say you will die if you eat of the fruit?  You won't die, you will be wise like God."  It was a lying arrow shot from a deceitful bow.  He quoted scripture with a twist to the Savior - that was a lying arrow.  I live in a body that can be tempted with desires for carnal experiences and in a world of flammable gasses that could ignite at a spark.  The shield of faith needs to be in working order.

Once a man is enabled to have full assurance of faith in God and His Word - the principle of faith puts the questionings and attacks of man at rest.  Faith is a shield against these, faith puts these anxieties to rest.  "My peace I give to you - not as the world gives" - and as Jesus challenged the disciples who woke Him in the boat in the storm, "Where is your faith?" implying faith is the only thing that stood between them and peaceful sleep.  

Jesus acknowledged demons.  The pdocs don't.  I'll go with Jesus' perspective. I am conscious of ongoing war thought by thought.  I don't know for sure that the next real time thought is coming from Satan or my old nature or from the Spirit of God - but I stand watch and take it captive and see if it matches up with the Word of God.  The ear tastes words like the palate tastes food and through the Spirit of God I recognize my Master's voice - Freud's voice is Freud's voice and doesn't bother me along with the other pdocs.  God has written His law on our hearts through the Spirit such that we can know Him intimately.  "My sheep know My Voice".  

There isn't disgrace in having bipolar disorder - though affective disorder is painful and in the early experience mocking adds to the pain.  Bipolar disorder is genetic, not self-caused, so it's like mocking a person who has inherited deafness.   Fortunately with experience it is possible to develop a strength that is a defense against the mocking.  There is also strength in not being a mocker that keeps oneself from being touched by it.  It's comparable to a gossip themselves being worried most about what others think.  And how do you know it is not a normal condition.  It could just be a way in which we are all different.  In bipolar the life experience and experiment is speeded up - you learn to fight for the next thought.    

I have no fear of death now.  And I have no doubts that the cows are wise enough to know their master - which is a good thing for an atheist to consider.  

In a few words my conduct on this forum has been honest.  Faith in Jesus works for me, and I'm not kidding.

There was a "language barrier" moment, but I think I understood what you said. Just a small parenthesis: why do you leave two spaces after the end of a paragraph, after a dot? Anyway, even if you said you don't see a "god target" in the "atheist faith", you still compare it to a "drinking seawater for thirst". But what is this "thirst"? I would object that a non-believer hasn't any (of this kind). Another point too would be that without this "faith" like in science (specifically printing and logistics) you may have not being able to even see a bible in your entire life. So admitting a subjugation in that way the "god target" would exists, and so... I leave the conclusions to you. But then I have so many questions. Why should I care that this Jesus is said to have died for me? Why should I care about this 'door'? If I remember well, you said (in general) "you are not ill? then you don't need a medic -- for analogy if you are ok you may not need Jesus", correct? But you are saying too that there's something... that you *have* to believe in Jesus, right? That's the impression I got. And continuing, why should I care about spiritual life? And would you say that the entire world, *together*, could "draw near to God"? Excuse me but I don't understand the "I don't get from your tome" phrase. Apart from the fact that it seems grammatically a bit weird, I expecially don't understand what "design an intricate tapestry and float in on hot air" means. Could you rephrase that? Thanks. Jumping for the moment the "man is chained in sin", there are really a bunch of things I'm not understanding. The use of the word 'bale' is an example, and then the "disciplines every son He receives": are you saying 'while in life'? That even without awareness of the christianity you are considered "to be disciplinated"? And you fail, well, "it sucks"? About the "quitting reasons", would you admit the possibility that others simply may have found what you found somewhere else? That they are happy as you but not christians and so they don't need "to know Jesus"? For the "everything God does is right": if this is true, then I mean... shouldn't the world look another way? I understand in this context "I may not know why something happens at all", but the point is this doesn't follow from "everything God does is right". Why try to explain things, why give definitions, why think at all if "everything is right" to begin with? Do you see what I mean? It's also almost as saying "good and bad don't exists", because it's an act of God either way. There's even no meaning in "good" and "bad" at that point. Now I don't say use the bible as a "self help guide". Someone obviously does, but that wasn't my point. I instead was talking about the non-christian that uses the bible (mainly the new testament) as a foundation for his morality, so using it as a definitive guide in your life without the godly part, only Jesus. I would say it's not properly clear that it was the devil who deceived Eve, but you know, probably it's not even the biggest problem with that part. Instead I want to focus on the previous "is faith (and Jesus) necessary?" argument. Is faith really this 'key point' able to unlock the 'peaceful sleep'? How do you know? Even if repeatedly the bible showed true to you, how can you the next fact could be right, the 'peaceful sleep', for example? (or better, why apply this type of reasoning) The other impression I get is that you are saying "faith is important to me and I don't care that you do not believe" but contemporaneously you say "you must believe because it's obviously the right thing to do" with something like "you (people of this forum) cannot (or never have been abel to) show you're right" in the middle. And above all: what can you exclusively obtain from (christian) faith that is not reproducible without faith? Well I cannot claim to know a lot of them but some theist pdocs existed and exist. If they pertain to a religion which acknowledge demons (which almost surely some do) you cannot say "the pdocs don't". I'm sorry for the concision and the straightforwardness but I just think your argument is ill-formed. If I really have to be honest I should ask you: did you read the psychology books with the attention you dedicate to the bible? That's absolutely not a small thing. But I'm suddenly actracted from the fact you say your thoughts can come from "your old nature", the Spirit, or Satan. Could you be more explicit on this? Write all that you can, absolutely no limits, thanks. It would be interesting to discuss about the "God has written His law on our hearts", it could be pretty long, though. How can I know that bipolar disorder is not normal? Maybe because it's called 'disorder'? I think it's pretty loquacious term. You have no fear of death. Nor I do. Good. The cows are wise enough to know their master? I would not say so. Firstly, while it's true they are not indipendent animals (because their behavior has been modified by being forced to live with humans), they sure are not obedient like dogs. They don't need it because they are not a pack. They are more of a flock. Apart from that, you have to show to an animal that you are worthy -- continuously. It's not going to accept you unconditionally. This usually is true also for us. You say you have been honest here. But would you say that sometimes you had not been able to limit yourself? How is it that so many people (here) are not glad for your answers? (I hope this is not going in an awful territory for you, but I deem it's important for me) Jesus works for you. If you ask me, there are some details. Yes, it seems it's useful for you, but to claim it works 100% is something I don't believe. But I think that's obvious. It seems you are able to control yourself, you're able to control the bipolar disorder, but there's a lot more. Put it like this (you don't have to think it's related to you): would you prefer living well but in an illusion or slightly less well but in reality? Okay so just another little thing: I saw this strange argument from a theist (not christian, or at least just in part), and I ask for your opinion. This guy said courtship (wooing in love, looking at wiki) is immoral. What do you think?

 

 

 

 

Luca,

 

I don't know what you're talking about concerning paragraph spacing other than it's automatic (possibly set in my preferences).

You don't have thirst for meaning in life like Solomon's search in Ecclesiastes?  I can't say what you have but I do have thirst.  My experience is that I have a unseen inner spiritual man that is comparable to the physical.  It needs food for its fire and direction for its travel and eyes of faith to see where it's going.  It needs communion in like nature - and fortunately I have that in the Gift of the Holy Spirit.  

Just as only the spirit of man knows the thoughts within him the Spirit of God knows the thoughts of God and provides a bridge of understanding God and His Word.  The Word of God is fuel for the fire within - fuel for a lifetime.  The Word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword (not for playing with) but "dividing bone and marrow" - such as navigating through fine lines such as boldness vs arrogance, ambition versus greed, confidence versus boldness, etc.  

Why should you care that Jesus died for you?  Well, it's not a cold business transaction thing.  God loves you and I and Jesus bridges the gap between us and God.  Jesus' death solves the problem we can't solve on our own.  Jesus' death heals our spiritual sickness.  Jesus rescues us from the chains of the enemy, the devil.  Jesus breaks the trap of sin and sets us free.  Then Jesus comes (He is alive) and makes His home with us, the presence of God.  "Christ in us the hope of glory."  

Why should you care?  When you meet up with the gospel you don't judge it - it judges you.  If you turn away from the offer of grace in Jesus Christ you judge yourself unworthy of eternal life.  

One of the side effects of sin is thinking you are in a secure state but you're not.  You could be like Harry Truman when Mt Helen was going to blow - maybe he didn't care I don't know.  

As far as my "being well" I am aware that I need God and Jesus and The Holy Spirit all the way to the gates and then for eternity.  My life is in God and Jesus and I am happy to have it that way.  I have found the Life that is Life indeed - there is nothing that begins to compare to walking with Jesus in faith.  

As far as what "I don't get from your tome" - "backface culling", "the 'handshaking is the handshaking'", the "revelation is personal so the only way around the barricade is talking about you".  I didn't get that, but my point is still valid that one reason people are "turned off" by the gospel is the result of pride (a bi-product again of sin) - thus they "don't care" because it's too simple.  Basically the gospel is this:  "Believe in Jesus and live".  Instead men want to wax philosophical.  I believe every man is geared to have a god.  He could be lazy about his god or consecrated.  He could have the wrong god - he will become like his god.  

Discipline - if you decided to come to God in faith in Jesus you are promised discipline, "God disciplines every son He receives". The way He develops us is the same way gold is refined.  We are tested by trials.  I'm not discussing this as a professor who hasn't experienced it.  I have been through trials - even right after I became a Christian.  The first pdoc told me to "get rid of that Bible".  I had no idea what was happening (they didn't know much more believe me) but I knew the Bible was true and I hung on tight.  Still, there is the paradox.  I was rejoicing even in the trials.  

I experienced pdocs that didn't have the answer - I am not discussing from reading books.  I'm sure there are good pdocs - it's just (I believe) the door was locked until God unlocked it (long story).    

I think people think they are happy having "bailed out"  but have arrived at that conclusion because they don't know the difference.  When the Israelites came out of Egypt (like the Christian out of the Egypt of his sin) they wandered for a long time because they couldn't learn faith in God - they had every reason to have total faith in God, but they demonstrated the problem.  They could have learned walking by faith and crossed over into full assurance but very few did.  There's attrition.  

It is my opinion that the person who thinks they are using the Bible as a self help guide while rejecting the God and Savior are fooling themselves and would have an bad experience.  

Shouldn't the world look another way if everything God does is right?  This is the perspective of the three friends of Job.  We are told why this drama has come about - they make wrong judgments by what they see.  In the end God rebukes them and accepts Job's prayer for them.  

There is a devil in this world - and his demon helpers.  One of his goals is to deceive and keep people from finding the truth, muddying the water, attribute bad things to God, prejudice people with hypocrites.  Hopefully you can see through this deceit.  When he lies he lies sincerely because (Scriptures tell us) he is a liar from the beginning.  How would you like to know for eternity that you - a reasonably intelligent guy with maybe an 8 oz brain - have been had?  

Faith is simply "spiritual eyesight" - seeing the unseen.  It is the gift of God and refined by suffering.  I could compare this to learning a new trade.  Every time I have learned a new trade there was study and theory - but also there was always suffering to really learn it.  If you want to learn what faith in God is - you will find it is not a walk in the park.  You will have to persevere.  But there's nothing like it - it's more precious than gold.   

Bipolar disorder not normal because of what it's called?  That doesn't cinch the argument for me.  It has been a problem I have learned to accept and embrace and therefore have received a blessing from.  I'm apathetic about whether it's normal.  

I don't understand what you mean by me "not being able to limit myself" here?  

How is it others are not glad about my answers?  Let me ask you this:  how is it that God became a man and He was hated and crucified?  

As I said trials test faith and get rid of what's not faith - just like the furnace tests gold and gets rid of what's not gold.  Thus I might get to thinking I have great faith until the trial shows me a weakness in my faith - maybe an anxiety about some area of survival for example.  This brings me to the reality of where I really am with faith as you mentioned "living well in illusion versus slightly less well in reality".  I'm in reality here and know that I need Jesus and God totally.  I want God's discipline.  

Wooing in love, looking at wiki immoral?  I don't have a judgment on that, I'm just a guy who married a girl 43 years ago without dating her (after 6 months of letters) drove 36 hours, arrived on Christmas day, was married within a week, had 100$ (money no problem).  The Bible says "to the pure all things are pure and to the corrupt all things are corrupt."  A neat thing about the "new birth" in Christ - God gives you a new heart.  Anything (you could pick the best purest thing there is) could be made corrupt by a corrupt mind.  It's not the wiki or wooing in love or desires or money in themselves that is right or wrong.  It's the state of the heart.  

My answer is necessarily incomplete - for one, I don't have all the answers.  Fortunately the One I believe and trust in not only does - but is alive and present.  "Unless the LORD builds the house those who build labor in vain, unless the LORD watches the city the watchman stays awake in vain".    

 

 

 

 

 


luca
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Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

 

I don't know what you're talking about concerning paragraph spacing other than it's automatic (possibly set in my preferences).

You don't have thirst for meaning in life like Solomon's search in Ecclesiastes?  I can't say what you have but I do have thirst.  My experience is that I have a unseen inner spiritual man that is comparable to the physical.  It needs food for its fire and direction for its travel and eyes of faith to see where it's going.  It needs communion in like nature - and fortunately I have that in the Gift of the Holy Spirit.  

Just as only the spirit of man knows the thoughts within him the Spirit of God knows the thoughts of God and provides a bridge of understanding God and His Word.  The Word of God is fuel for the fire within - fuel for a lifetime.  The Word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword (not for playing with) but "dividing bone and marrow" - such as navigating through fine lines such as boldness vs arrogance, ambition versus greed, confidence versus boldness, etc.  

Why should you care that Jesus died for you?  Well, it's not a cold business transaction thing.  God loves you and I and Jesus bridges the gap between us and God.  Jesus' death solves the problem we can't solve on our own.  Jesus' death heals our spiritual sickness.  Jesus rescues us from the chains of the enemy, the devil.  Jesus breaks the trap of sin and sets us free.  Then Jesus comes (He is alive) and makes His home with us, the presence of God.  "Christ in us the hope of glory."  

Why should you care?  When you meet up with the gospel you don't judge it - it judges you.  If you turn away from the offer of grace in Jesus Christ you judge yourself unworthy of eternal life.  

One of the side effects of sin is thinking you are in a secure state but you're not.  You could be like Harry Truman when Mt Helen was going to blow - maybe he didn't care I don't know.  

As far as my "being well" I am aware that I need God and Jesus and The Holy Spirit all the way to the gates and then for eternity.  My life is in God and Jesus and I am happy to have it that way.  I have found the Life that is Life indeed - there is nothing that begins to compare to walking with Jesus in faith.  

As far as what "I don't get from your tome" - "backface culling", "the 'handshaking is the handshaking'", the "revelation is personal so the only way around the barricade is talking about you".  I didn't get that, but my point is still valid that one reason people are "turned off" by the gospel is the result of pride (a bi-product again of sin) - thus they "don't care" because it's too simple.  Basically the gospel is this:  "Believe in Jesus and live".  Instead men want to wax philosophical.  I believe every man is geared to have a god.  He could be lazy about his god or consecrated.  He could have the wrong god - he will become like his god.  

Discipline - if you decided to come to God in faith in Jesus you are promised discipline, "God disciplines every son He receives". The way He develops us is the same way gold is refined.  We are tested by trials.  I'm not discussing this as a professor who hasn't experienced it.  I have been through trials - even right after I became a Christian.  The first pdoc told me to "get rid of that Bible".  I had no idea what was happening (they didn't know much more believe me) but I knew the Bible was true and I hung on tight.  Still, there is the paradox.  I was rejoicing even in the trials.  

I experienced pdocs that didn't have the answer - I am not discussing from reading books.  I'm sure there are good pdocs - it's just (I believe) the door was locked until God unlocked it (long story).    

I think people think they are happy having "bailed out"  but have arrived at that conclusion because they don't know the difference.  When the Israelites came out of Egypt (like the Christian out of the Egypt of his sin) they wandered for a long time because they couldn't learn faith in God - they had every reason to have total faith in God, but they demonstrated the problem.  They could have learned walking by faith and crossed over into full assurance but very few did.  There's attrition.  

It is my opinion that the person who thinks they are using the Bible as a self help guide while rejecting the God and Savior are fooling themselves and would have an bad experience.  

Shouldn't the world look another way if everything God does is right?  This is the perspective of the three friends of Job.  We are told why this drama has come about - they make wrong judgments by what they see.  In the end God rebukes them and accepts Job's prayer for them.  

There is a devil in this world - and his demon helpers.  One of his goals is to deceive and keep people from finding the truth, muddying the water, attribute bad things to God, prejudice people with hypocrites.  Hopefully you can see through this deceit.  When he lies he lies sincerely because (Scriptures tell us) he is a liar from the beginning.  How would you like to know for eternity that you - a reasonably intelligent guy with maybe an 8 oz brain - have been had?  

Faith is simply "spiritual eyesight" - seeing the unseen.  It is the gift of God and refined by suffering.  I could compare this to learning a new trade.  Every time I have learned a new trade there was study and theory - but also there was always suffering to really learn it.  If you want to learn what faith in God is - you will find it is not a walk in the park.  You will have to persevere.  But there's nothing like it - it's more precious than gold.   

Bipolar disorder not normal because of what it's called?  That doesn't cinch the argument for me.  It has been a problem I have learned to accept and embrace and therefore have received a blessing from.  I'm apathetic about whether it's normal.  

I don't understand what you mean by me "not being able to limit myself" here?  

How is it others are not glad about my answers?  Let me ask you this:  how is it that God became a man and He was hated and crucified?  

As I said trials test faith and get rid of what's not faith - just like the furnace tests gold and gets rid of what's not gold.  Thus I might get to thinking I have great faith until the trial shows me a weakness in my faith - maybe an anxiety about some area of survival for example.  This brings me to the reality of where I really am with faith as you mentioned "living well in illusion versus slightly less well in reality".  I'm in reality here and know that I need Jesus and God totally.  I want God's discipline.  

Wooing in love, looking at wiki immoral?  I don't have a judgment on that, I'm just a guy who married a girl 43 years ago without dating her (after 6 months of letters) drove 36 hours, arrived on Christmas day, was married within a week, had 100$ (money no problem).  The Bible says "to the pure all things are pure and to the corrupt all things are corrupt."  A neat thing about the "new birth" in Christ - God gives you a new heart.  Anything (you could pick the best purest thing there is) could be made corrupt by a corrupt mind.  It's not the wiki or wooing in love or desires or money in themselves that is right or wrong.  It's the state of the heart.  

My answer is necessarily incomplete - for one, I don't have all the answers.  Fortunately the One I believe and trust in not only does - but is alive and present.  "Unless the LORD builds the house those who build labor in vain, unless the LORD watches the city the watchman stays awake in vain".

 

 

 

First, I'm sorry for the delay. Second little paranthesis, I was only interested in paragraph spacing because not often are seen two spaces instead than one, so maybe you could have been doing it for mystical reasons... Instead it's probably that you're pasting the text from a word processor.

Ecclesiastes... I don't agree from _before_ that point. The "thirst for meaning of life" concept must be told before it's searched. I mean, it's part of a tradition. I'm saying it's not... imperative, >taken for granted<. There's a reason if it's there, and the reason is that Solomon, like people of his age, didn't know why things happen. He just thought "good things happen *to me*, bad things happen *to me*", so there's someone like me that makes these things happen in my life, so there's a meaning in life" (the *to me* part is not conscious). In a very very simplified description. But me, I just don't go there, from what I see in my reality I don't even see the need to start asking the "meaning of life" question. It doesn't subsists. Now I imagine you don't agree.

I absolutely do not take the narrated death of Jesus as a 'cold business transaction'. I try to understand, and hypothetically I could see love in there. But macroscopic speaking it doesn't make properly sense, because all the things that come before must have sense in order for the sacrifice to have sense. And even then, not only the interpretation depends on the dogmas taken, but it doesn't seem like a big thing. I mean, a god that sacrifices to himself? He resurrects after 3 days? Then where is really the sacrifice? If being crucified (or impaled, just for the par condicio) gave a free pass for heaven, everyone would do it, I'm pretty sure of it.
But as I was saying, that's not the point. Before even beginning considering Jesus' sacrifice, all that comes before has to make sense, and at the moment, it doesn't.

Not only that, but also this: why is eternal life important? That, simply: why couldn't I not want it?

So you are happy to have your life in your way. But if I told you that I'm happier than you then I would be lying? Would it be a prejudice for you to say "no it's not true"?

Men want to wax it philosophical...? Now I'm sorry when I started with the "handshaking" and the "backface culling", I just try to show you what my reality is with what I experience.
Are you saying that pride (leading to rejecting the gospel) in this case means "I can do it myself, I don't need anything else"? This is an important point.
Instead I don't understand the connection with "don't care because it's too simple"... I mean, it seems like you are saying: "the gospel is simple, it's just 'believe in Jesus and live', just do that", but... Well you still need at least a bible, right?
The "wrong god" you were talking about is also, how do I put it... Inborn?

Now you (we) are tested by trials (although still we would have to clarify why and what it means), but does the 'development' happen through feelings? I remember you was saying something like "Jesus does all the work, I just exercise the force of a 3 year old". So is this practiced through "reward/punishment"?
Also, would you say that "you are not alone in your head"? (relating Jesus, not the pathologies)

What answers should have the pdocs? (important matter)
The locked door that was unlocked by God was a door for you? Or for the pdocs?
I don't know how to say it but it seems that you assign these 'pdocs' a higher value than other doctors. In the end it's a job, and it doesn't make a person more moral or less, and let not speak about the number of branches the psychology has...

Well maybe the "bailed out" people don't know the difference, but do you? In the end you have never been without Jesus, you say.
Also you end the story with "there's attrition": do you mean like a war in the trench?

Oh now I understood the godless-new-testament 'self help guide'. Sorry I didn't undertand you don't like the "godless-" part.

The three friends of Job can't know what I'm talking about, although in a small part my objection exists in their arguments. Now apart from the fact that God *doesn't* rebukes them, he just says "might makes right, and I'm 'might'", apart from that, they argue more about the "evil things" that happen in the world. I'm instead on a more technical plane, and *why* is it important? Because this is one of the points where what acts *in* is said to act also on the world. So an example: if the raining happens to follow a random pattern, can I say that it has a sentient cause, that it follows a plan?
But it goes beyond that: if "God is right", then "bad things done by God are right?" -- or better, they would not be "bad things". And even further: if an event was right, you would understand it, I think. Instead the fact that events happen without real reason makes them "neutral". Am I right?

How do this devil and his minions lie? I mean, about what? And how do you understand it, they go forcibly against the God's word?
And about (preventing you know the) truth, like John 8:32, wouldn't the truth about the existance of God make us free? Wouldn't be a good thing for everyone?
Last, if for eternity I knew that I have been lied from the devil the first thing I would ask to my self would be: why for eternity? What did I do to deserve that? And I think it's a pretty classical problem.

Faith: what would this perseverance become without suffering?

Bipolarity: and then why, in your opinion, it's called 'disorder' and it's classified as a 'pathology'?

For "not able to limit yourself" I meant if you ever felt you had exaggerated, positive or negative.

I would gladly answer to "why Jesus was hated and crucified", but I think you wouldn't like the answer (on multiple levels). Other than that, I think it would be a recursion to this same discussion. And by the way I'm not sure where you are going with the comparation you've practically built. So to return to my original question I think people here is not satisfied with you answers for more than one reason. One is that you probably didn't make it clear for them on why you give the answers you give, why they should consider them instead of what they asked, and I see you a bit guilty like everyone else (because not many here tried to understand the other part), tho I understand there could be other problems like lack of time or ability. The point still is that I would like to hear what do you think.

Faith and gold. Thinking about this metaphor I asked myself: being that gold is made precious by some reasons (usefulness, environment, economy), what are the reasons for which faith should be considered precious?
Anyway, let's take the "survival" example literally: if you were lost in the wilderness, would you catch hold of your (religious) faith to survive? How much important would you consider you surviving skills against faith? (hope the situation is correct)
Another important bit: why do you want God's discipline, just because you feel good and live well with it?

Instead that focusing the fact that your answers are necessarily incomplete, I ask you: what does it mean to you that God has the answers but you don't? Why should you carenif in the end you don't obtain them?
And also: what would you do to have that answers? Do you really search them? Are you supposing indipendence from the answers you search and what has been told you of science-y knowledge? (like for example in the Job you was recalling: it was said "do you know where the lighting comes from? do you know how the clouds stands up there?" eccetera; science: "yes I know" -- this thing)


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THIRST ETC

luca wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Luca,

 

I don't know what you're talking about concerning paragraph spacing other than it's automatic (possibly set in my preferences).

You don't have thirst for meaning in life like Solomon's search in Ecclesiastes?  I can't say what you have but I do have thirst.  My experience is that I have a unseen inner spiritual man that is comparable to the physical.  It needs food for its fire and direction for its travel and eyes of faith to see where it's going.  It needs communion in like nature - and fortunately I have that in the Gift of the Holy Spirit.  

Just as only the spirit of man knows the thoughts within him the Spirit of God knows the thoughts of God and provides a bridge of understanding God and His Word.  The Word of God is fuel for the fire within - fuel for a lifetime.  The Word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword (not for playing with) but "dividing bone and marrow" - such as navigating through fine lines such as boldness vs arrogance, ambition versus greed, confidence versus boldness, etc.  

Why should you care that Jesus died for you?  Well, it's not a cold business transaction thing.  God loves you and I and Jesus bridges the gap between us and God.  Jesus' death solves the problem we can't solve on our own.  Jesus' death heals our spiritual sickness.  Jesus rescues us from the chains of the enemy, the devil.  Jesus breaks the trap of sin and sets us free.  Then Jesus comes (He is alive) and makes His home with us, the presence of God.  "Christ in us the hope of glory."  

Why should you care?  When you meet up with the gospel you don't judge it - it judges you.  If you turn away from the offer of grace in Jesus Christ you judge yourself unworthy of eternal life.  

One of the side effects of sin is thinking you are in a secure state but you're not.  You could be like Harry Truman when Mt Helen was going to blow - maybe he didn't care I don't know.  

As far as my "being well" I am aware that I need God and Jesus and The Holy Spirit all the way to the gates and then for eternity.  My life is in God and Jesus and I am happy to have it that way.  I have found the Life that is Life indeed - there is nothing that begins to compare to walking with Jesus in faith.  

As far as what "I don't get from your tome" - "backface culling", "the 'handshaking is the handshaking'", the "revelation is personal so the only way around the barricade is talking about you".  I didn't get that, but my point is still valid that one reason people are "turned off" by the gospel is the result of pride (a bi-product again of sin) - thus they "don't care" because it's too simple.  Basically the gospel is this:  "Believe in Jesus and live".  Instead men want to wax philosophical.  I believe every man is geared to have a god.  He could be lazy about his god or consecrated.  He could have the wrong god - he will become like his god.  

Discipline - if you decided to come to God in faith in Jesus you are promised discipline, "God disciplines every son He receives". The way He develops us is the same way gold is refined.  We are tested by trials.  I'm not discussing this as a professor who hasn't experienced it.  I have been through trials - even right after I became a Christian.  The first pdoc told me to "get rid of that Bible".  I had no idea what was happening (they didn't know much more believe me) but I knew the Bible was true and I hung on tight.  Still, there is the paradox.  I was rejoicing even in the trials.  

I experienced pdocs that didn't have the answer - I am not discussing from reading books.  I'm sure there are good pdocs - it's just (I believe) the door was locked until God unlocked it (long story).    

I think people think they are happy having "bailed out"  but have arrived at that conclusion because they don't know the difference.  When the Israelites came out of Egypt (like the Christian out of the Egypt of his sin) they wandered for a long time because they couldn't learn faith in God - they had every reason to have total faith in God, but they demonstrated the problem.  They could have learned walking by faith and crossed over into full assurance but very few did.  There's attrition.  

It is my opinion that the person who thinks they are using the Bible as a self help guide while rejecting the God and Savior are fooling themselves and would have an bad experience.  

Shouldn't the world look another way if everything God does is right?  This is the perspective of the three friends of Job.  We are told why this drama has come about - they make wrong judgments by what they see.  In the end God rebukes them and accepts Job's prayer for them.  

There is a devil in this world - and his demon helpers.  One of his goals is to deceive and keep people from finding the truth, muddying the water, attribute bad things to God, prejudice people with hypocrites.  Hopefully you can see through this deceit.  When he lies he lies sincerely because (Scriptures tell us) he is a liar from the beginning.  How would you like to know for eternity that you - a reasonably intelligent guy with maybe an 8 oz brain - have been had?  

Faith is simply "spiritual eyesight" - seeing the unseen.  It is the gift of God and refined by suffering.  I could compare this to learning a new trade.  Every time I have learned a new trade there was study and theory - but also there was always suffering to really learn it.  If you want to learn what faith in God is - you will find it is not a walk in the park.  You will have to persevere.  But there's nothing like it - it's more precious than gold.   

Bipolar disorder not normal because of what it's called?  That doesn't cinch the argument for me.  It has been a problem I have learned to accept and embrace and therefore have received a blessing from.  I'm apathetic about whether it's normal.  

I don't understand what you mean by me "not being able to limit myself" here?  

How is it others are not glad about my answers?  Let me ask you this:  how is it that God became a man and He was hated and crucified?  

As I said trials test faith and get rid of what's not faith - just like the furnace tests gold and gets rid of what's not gold.  Thus I might get to thinking I have great faith until the trial shows me a weakness in my faith - maybe an anxiety about some area of survival for example.  This brings me to the reality of where I really am with faith as you mentioned "living well in illusion versus slightly less well in reality".  I'm in reality here and know that I need Jesus and God totally.  I want God's discipline.  

Wooing in love, looking at wiki immoral?  I don't have a judgment on that, I'm just a guy who married a girl 43 years ago without dating her (after 6 months of letters) drove 36 hours, arrived on Christmas day, was married within a week, had 100$ (money no problem).  The Bible says "to the pure all things are pure and to the corrupt all things are corrupt."  A neat thing about the "new birth" in Christ - God gives you a new heart.  Anything (you could pick the best purest thing there is) could be made corrupt by a corrupt mind.  It's not the wiki or wooing in love or desires or money in themselves that is right or wrong.  It's the state of the heart.  

My answer is necessarily incomplete - for one, I don't have all the answers.  Fortunately the One I believe and trust in not only does - but is alive and present.  "Unless the LORD builds the house those who build labor in vain, unless the LORD watches the city the watchman stays awake in vain".

 

 

 

First, I'm sorry for the delay. Second little paranthesis, I was only interested in paragraph spacing because not often are seen two spaces instead than one, so maybe you could have been doing it for mystical reasons... Instead it's probably that you're pasting the text from a word processor. Ecclesiastes... I don't agree from _before_ that point. The "thirst for meaning of life" concept must be told before it's searched. I mean, it's part of a tradition. I'm saying it's not... imperative, >taken for granted<. There's a reason if it's there, and the reason is that Solomon, like people of his age, didn't know why things happen. He just thought "good things happen *to me*, bad things happen *to me*", so there's someone like me that makes these things happen in my life, so there's a meaning in life" (the *to me* part is not conscious). In a very very simplified description. But me, I just don't go there, from what I see in my reality I don't even see the need to start asking the "meaning of life" question. It doesn't subsists. Now I imagine you don't agree. I absolutely do not take the narrated death of Jesus as a 'cold business transaction'. I try to understand, and hypothetically I could see love in there. But macroscopic speaking it doesn't make properly sense, because all the things that come before must have sense in order for the sacrifice to have sense. And even then, not only the interpretation depends on the dogmas taken, but it doesn't seem like a big thing. I mean, a god that sacrifices to himself? He resurrects after 3 days? Then where is really the sacrifice? If being crucified (or impaled, just for the par condicio) gave a free pass for heaven, everyone would do it, I'm pretty sure of it. But as I was saying, that's not the point. Before even beginning considering Jesus' sacrifice, all that comes before has to make sense, and at the moment, it doesn't. Not only that, but also this: why is eternal life important? That, simply: why couldn't I not want it? So you are happy to have your life in your way. But if I told you that I'm happier than you then I would be lying? Would it be a prejudice for you to say "no it's not true"? Men want to wax it philosophical...? Now I'm sorry when I started with the "handshaking" and the "backface culling", I just try to show you what my reality is with what I experience. Are you saying that pride (leading to rejecting the gospel) in this case means "I can do it myself, I don't need anything else"? This is an important point. Instead I don't understand the connection with "don't care because it's too simple"... I mean, it seems like you are saying: "the gospel is simple, it's just 'believe in Jesus and live', just do that", but... Well you still need at least a bible, right? The "wrong god" you were talking about is also, how do I put it... Inborn? Now you (we) are tested by trials (although still we would have to clarify why and what it means), but does the 'development' happen through feelings? I remember you was saying something like "Jesus does all the work, I just exercise the force of a 3 year old". So is this practiced through "reward/punishment"? Also, would you say that "you are not alone in your head"? (relating Jesus, not the pathologies) What answers should have the pdocs? (important matter) The locked door that was unlocked by God was a door for you? Or for the pdocs? I don't know how to say it but it seems that you assign these 'pdocs' a higher value than other doctors. In the end it's a job, and it doesn't make a person more moral or less, and let not speak about the number of branches the psychology has... Well maybe the "bailed out" people don't know the difference, but do you? In the end you have never been without Jesus, you say. Also you end the story with "there's attrition": do you mean like a war in the trench? Oh now I understood the godless-new-testament 'self help guide'. Sorry I didn't undertand you don't like the "godless-" part. The three friends of Job can't know what I'm talking about, although in a small part my objection exists in their arguments. Now apart from the fact that God *doesn't* rebukes them, he just says "might makes right, and I'm 'might'", apart from that, they argue more about the "evil things" that happen in the world. I'm instead on a more technical plane, and *why* is it important? Because this is one of the points where what acts *in* is said to act also on the world. So an example: if the raining happens to follow a random pattern, can I say that it has a sentient cause, that it follows a plan? But it goes beyond that: if "God is right", then "bad things done by God are right?" -- or better, they would not be "bad things". And even further: if an event was right, you would understand it, I think. Instead the fact that events happen without real reason makes them "neutral". Am I right? How do this devil and his minions lie? I mean, about what? And how do you understand it, they go forcibly against the God's word? And about (preventing you know the) truth, like John 8:32, wouldn't the truth about the existance of God make us free? Wouldn't be a good thing for everyone? Last, if for eternity I knew that I have been lied from the devil the first thing I would ask to my self would be: why for eternity? What did I do to deserve that? And I think it's a pretty classical problem. Faith: what would this perseverance become without suffering? Bipolarity: and then why, in your opinion, it's called 'disorder' and it's classified as a 'pathology'? For "not able to limit yourself" I meant if you ever felt you had exaggerated, positive or negative. I would gladly answer to "why Jesus was hated and crucified", but I think you wouldn't like the answer (on multiple levels). Other than that, I think it would be a recursion to this same discussion. And by the way I'm not sure where you are going with the comparation you've practically built. So to return to my original question I think people here is not satisfied with you answers for more than one reason. One is that you probably didn't make it clear for them on why you give the answers you give, why they should consider them instead of what they asked, and I see you a bit guilty like everyone else (because not many here tried to understand the other part), tho I understand there could be other problems like lack of time or ability. The point still is that I would like to hear what do you think. Faith and gold. Thinking about this metaphor I asked myself: being that gold is made precious by some reasons (usefulness, environment, economy), what are the reasons for which faith should be considered precious? Anyway, let's take the "survival" example literally: if you were lost in the wilderness, would you catch hold of your (religious) faith to survive? How much important would you consider you surviving skills against faith? (hope the situation is correct) Another important bit: why do you want God's discipline, just because you feel good and live well with it? Instead that focusing the fact that your answers are necessarily incomplete, I ask you: what does it mean to you that God has the answers but you don't? Why should you carenif in the end you don't obtain them? And also: what would you do to have that answers? Do you really search them? Are you supposing indipendence from the answers you search and what has been told you of science-y knowledge? (like for example in the Job you was recalling: it was said "do you know where the lighting comes from? do you know how the clouds stands up there?" eccetera; science: "yes I know" -- this thing)

 

 

 

Luca,

 

I'm not pasting from a word processor - I don't know what the spacing issue is.

I identify with Solomon's perspective and discovery.  I believe the Holy Spirit speaking through Solomon saying 3.11 God has put eternity into man's mind and the hunger to find out what that's about just like hunger for knowledge and solutions to problems.  Solomon conducted a high level experiment fully federally funded and guided with divine gift of wisdom 1 Kings 3 to find out once for all what was worthwhile for man to pursue in life.  I say high level - 1000 wives/concubines, a huge building program - cedar covered with gold.  In my small way I follow his conclusions.  Without communion with God - life is nothing. Fortunately I have found communion with God and escaped vanity and emptiness - through the door which is Jesus Christ.

If there was enough interest on your part to persevere in reading/understanding the Bible the crucifixion could make sense - it was planned before the creation of the world, foretold by numerous types, a mystery which angels longed to look into now revealed.  The Scriptures are "living and active, sharper than a two edged sword, dividing bone and marrow".  The Scriptures produce faith and explain themselves.  

The Bible says eternal life is knowing Jesus (John 17.3).  If you find the joy of 24/7 communion with Jesus you will understand there is something you could never tire of eternally.  I can only report this over the barricade to you - as said I cannot prove this but I report it as true and I'm not alone but I don't think being alone in this would make a difference.  

The first Pentecost (50 days after the first Passover lambs were slain to deliver Israel) God shook the mountain and wrote His law on stone tablets.  The last Pentecost  (50 days after the Lamb of God was slain for all the sins of all men for all time for those who believe) The Holy Spirit was poured out and God wrote His law on the hearts of men.  Jesus' willing sacrifice for sin allowed those of us who accept His gift of Righteousness to draw near to God because the enmity between us and God is removed.  The divine principle is, "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin".  Since we have all sinned we have all incurred debt.  We can try to pay that debt ourselves and summarily fail now rightly seen or find out later.  

You cannot be as happy as you could be in communion with God and Jesus.  I don't think you would be lying from your perspective, but from the Bible perspective you couldn't possibly have the abundant life that Is in Jesus (John 10.10)

As far as pride - it is a failing and falling position.  Humility is a learning position.  You can see how easy it is for the proud to be led astray by their false impression of themselves and their perspective.  This would easily keep a person from looking into the gospel so this would be promoted by an enemy of the gospel.  Yet there is a power in the gospel itself that is greater than the enemy - if there is a spark of faith to ignite the soul to seek Jesus.  Try it and see what gets in the way.

The gospel is simple - God sent His Son to die for our sin and He came, lived a perfect life, died willingly for our sin with no debt Himself (no sin Himself) but He died taking our burden of sin on Himself, was even separated from His Father (My God, My God why hast Thou Forsaken Me) - and the bite of death that death took of Him was the Death of Death for all who are born again into Him - we share His Name, His brotherhood, His fellowship with God, and His inheritance.  He intends to marry us at the marriage supper of the Lamb.  For three days later He arose from the dead and He lives in those of us who believe.  It could seem simple like a swan dive - but actually hard to do.  It could seem simple like sailing principles - yet take years to become a sailor.  The gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing (1 Corinthians 1.18).  

There are things people give time and respect and dedication to as gods though they are not really God.  For instance; a man could spend all his time and health getting money as if it can deliver him.  His affections are focused on it - but when the eyes light on it it is gone, flying like an eagle into heaven  (Proverbs 23.1-5)  The man has a thirst for security and comfort but focuses on a false god - possibly with great or little dedication.  

The devil and his demons lie according to the Scripture (John 8.44).  You need a guide to navigate - the Scriptures, plus you need to have the Spirit of God within you.  The Scriptures are "living and active...sharper than any two-edged sword" (you can google).  As far as John 8.32, yes you can know the truth and the truth can make you free as it says before if you believe in Jesus and are His disciple.  

Faith is developed like gold is refined (revisited).  There came a time when I thought I was missing something.  I started reading the Scriptures and at a certain point it all clicked and fell into place that the Bible is true, God is true, Jesus is true, etc.  I was baptized as the Bible teaches by examples in water, immersed, then this new position (the Bible is true, etc) was tested with wave after wave of trial, other's disagreeing, long suffering of bp with no solution.  Through my holding on faith became stronger.  

The pdocs should have had the physical answer to stabilizing the affective disorder without trying to finger my faith in God and Jesus and the Scriptures.  Instead I had to go on and read a book and figure this out myself.  However, now I accept that as a door that God shut and opened for my own good at the right time.  I think bipolar is somewhat normal because I am told everybody has ups and downs.  The bipolar in my perspective just "speeds up the life experiment, bad or good" as I stated.

As to "lied for eternity, why?", well, you won't have to ask yourself will you.  You heard it right here in of all places the atheist forum.l

Have I exaggerated?  Yes, I have illustrated absurdity by being absurd.  As far as I know I haven't exaggerated with the wrong purpose.  I challenge you to show me anything I have said that isn't consistent with what I believe - if you are able to I aim to admit and change it.  

People are not satisfied with my answers for multiple reasons true.  For one, it's not the answer they want.  Another, there is a desire to become a "big atheist" here and impress other atheists.  Another reason is mocking what is not understood.  There are several others I'm sure, but basically there is enmity between the seed of Eve and the seed of the serpent (Genesis 3.15) so it goes way back like war in the middle east.  I'm not expecting it to be solved.  There is no way to make some things clear to some people.  If even Jesus (God in the flesh) wasn't able to make some people understand and accept His teachings - you see the obvious conclusion.  

Why is faith precious?  By faith I am rescued from not only spiritual death (I have experienced a spiritual awakening to life) and rescued from fear of death.  By faith I am able to understand what I need to understand about God (what He's revealed) and to "know God" (not know all about God, but "know God" in the sense that a child knows his dad).  By the grip of faith I have a grip on the life that is life indeed.  Through faith I have fellowship with God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.  With faith I have a means (a shield) to fight the devil defensively and full confidence in the Sword - the Word of God - to fight the devil thought by thought and situation by situation offensively.  Through faith I am never alone - and it's not like having a mechanic there when you have car trouble, it's having God and Jesus there Who created the world.   I have security in faith and a means of getting more faith.  

I love discipline (Proverbs 12.1) because I see the value of it - like the runner could see the meaning of the pain.  

If I was lost in the wilderness my faith would work for me.  Either God would guide me to what I needed or I could die confident.  What works in life also will work in death.  My brothers and sisters have sun in the flames.  

I search the Bible all the time - probably about 2 1/2 hours per day average.  The confidence of faith is like confidence in a person in a way.  If I had confidence in you I would not easily believe something against that confidence.

Job says at the end, "I heard of You (God)...now I see you and I despise myself" - awe of God.  He has revealed some things but not other things.  God did rebuke the three friends at the end who judged surface things.  Job held onto confidence in God though everything around him testified opposite.  His inner fortress held.   

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:You cannot be

Fonzie wrote:
You cannot be as happy as you could be in communion with God and Jesus.  I don't think you would be lying from your perspective, but from the Bible perspective you couldn't possibly have the abundant life that Is in Jesus.

You cannot be as happy as you could be in communion with Allah and fortold by Mohammed.  I don't think you would be lying from your perspective, but from the Quran perspective you couldn't possibly have the abundant life that Is in Allah.

You got some competing fairy tales.

First step, prove all of them false and yours correct without doing something idiotic like quoting the Bible.

Cause the Quran talks a lot of smack about you Christians.  Muslims can match you verse for verse and do it a lot better.

If you can not prove yours correct and theirs incorrect with some valid methodology you are just living on hopes and dreams.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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Arrogance

Quote:
You cannot be as happy as you could be in communion with God and Jesus.  I don't think you would be lying from your perspective, but from the Bible perspective you couldn't possibly have the abundant life that Is in Jesus (John 10.10)

I find this to be an incredibly arrogant statement, devoid of anything resembling humility and overflowing with self righteousness.

How DARE you to presume to know the emotional state of another human being, how DARE you to presume that you and your ilk are the only ones who can be truly happy.

Living in superstitious dread, fearing an afterlife in which you know that only desperate ass kissing can prevent you from what is in your twisted world view to be a 'just' punishment in eternal torment is not on my list of 'happy thoughts'.

Your beliefs are a perversion of the human spirit, denigrating, and despicable in its implications. That one can be absolved from wrong doing, that ones 'sins' can be transfer ed like spare change onto a third party and that this transfer could only be effected by a barbaric act of blood sacrifice is beyond disgusting.

 

LC >;-}>

 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.