It works for me!

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It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


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 Fonzie wrote:   God

 

Fonzie wrote:

 

God addressed the main problem of man through Jesus.

I'm always amazed at that whole "I'll send myself down so they can kill me and I can forgive them for breaking rules I made up in the first place" business.

I'm sure I don't understand it because my eyes are closed to it, or something.

 

Eden had a 25% murder rate and incest was rampant.


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Fonzie wrote:Vastet,Those

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet,

Those who are well have no need of a Physician.

And where exactly did this come from?

 

Fonzie wrote:
  Have a nice day

You too.

Fonzie wrote:
and may God bless you - consciously or otherwise.

And may someone think for you, since you're unwilling to think for yourself. 

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Angela wrote:Jesus saved my

Angela wrote:

Jesus saved my life, literally, I was on my death bed, that is why I worship Him. It's true, you cannot prove to somebody that God exists, but if you really want to know, He will show Himself to you. He is faithful and He is just, He provides when you are in need. For me, it's absurd to look at this Earth, all the beauty found in the nature of it, and try to justify it without a God. There is also a lot of scientific evidence that shows that a lot of 'coincidences' must have occured for the Earth to exist if there was no God. "Why the Universe is the Way it is" is a fantastic scientific explanation. Without a God, there would be no universe...no earth. Have you studied the properties of light? Check it out sometime and you'll discover just how extraordinary this earth and this physical reality is, and it's all thanks to this God that you don't want to believe in. But what if you tried? What if you honestly sought after this God for a personal relationship. Try it. I dare you.

 

 

Angela,

 

I appreciate your post and agree with it.  Jesus has saved my life too.

The Lord is mighty to save.  If these on this forum were turned by the LORD to believe in Jesus they would make great proclaimers of the gospel.

The passionate rejection unique to the gospel Is actually more proof of its authenticity.  They are rejecting Christ and God - thus, contempt for the messenger.

A phenomenon on earth is calling light dark and darkness light - embracing eternal enemies, rejecting eternal friends.

Sin has antiseptic causing the slave to think he is free, the poor to think he is rich, the sick to think he is well, the naked to think he is clothed.

To escape its hold on the heart is a miracle surgery done by the knife of the Spirit of God.  The patients who won't admit they are sick won't allow it.  The elect will respond to Christ "lifted up".  Those who reject will be lost.  Their blood is on themselves.  What a price to pay for pride.

 

 

 

 


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pablotar wrote: Fonzie

pablotar wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:

 

God addressed the main problem of man through Jesus.

I'm always amazed at that whole "I'll send myself down so they can kill me and I can forgive them for breaking rules I made up in the first place" business.

I'm sure I don't understand it because my eyes are closed to it, or something.

 

 

Pablotar,

 

God is both just and merciful.  He wanted to forgive our debt but justice had to be satisfied.  Jesus willingly offered Himself as the price for our atonement.  Jesus became sin for not only us but the sin of the whole world for all time.  All sin of all time was focused on Him.  In seeing what our sin did to Him we hate sin and determine to fight and forsake it.

When He died for our sins God was pleased to raise Him from the dead, destroying Death for all who believe in Him and are born into Him by dying with Him in baptism and rising up by the same power that raised Jesus to walk a new life - a life led by the Spirit rather than the flesh. 

This new state of life in Christ is a state of war.  The man reborn in Christ is two men.  There is the new life in Christ and the old man of flesh is also still present.  The power of sin however has been dealt a death blow by Christ.  With Christ as our Commander and our new nature on the throne in our hearts we fight our war against our old man of the flesh and put sin to death through the power of God in Christ.  We will have to fight all the way to death and may arrive at heaven on a board of the ship. 

The thing to focus on is Who Jesus is.  Is He the Christ, the Son of God, born of a virgin, Who died for our sins and rose from the dead or an imposter.  Jesus is called the "door".  We enter eternal life through Him.  The whole of Scripture depends on the answer to this question.  If you honestly seek the answer and ask God to reveal it to you He will.  Never will it be said that a man cried out to Christ to be saved and Christ couldn't save him.  Think what a dishonor that would be to God - that He couldn't save.  If you seek Him you will find Him. 

The problem is not a matter of understanding something difficult.  It is more a matter of the heart and humility before God.  Man wants to "do it himself".  It is hard for man to accept salvation as totally the work of God in the Atoning Death of Christ.  But if you want it - God is anxious to give salvation to you in Christ.  The Holy Spirit will guide you through it if you have a willing heart.  You can live the rest of your life and all eternity in the presence of and in fellowship with God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit and God's people, the church, the Body of Christ. 

Faith in Christ has great transforming power.  If Jesus said it - it is true.  It ends all doubts and questionings and speculations of man. 

I will pray for you too, pablotar. 

 

 

 

 

 


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Focus on who Jesus is? No

Focus on who Jesus is? No problem.

He's your perpetual "get out of Hell free" card.

You commit sin -> you ask forgiveness -> you're good to go.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Why is it that the ones who callously disregard divine consequences accuse atheists of ignoring them?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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I'll just respond to the

I'll just respond to the bits of crazy I think I can reply to.

 

Fonzie wrote:
The passionate rejection unique to the gospel Is actually more proof of its authenticity.

Actually, no. Neither your first point, nor the second, which doesn't follow from the first, are true. The first half is not unique to Christianity, at all. Even a ridiculously cursory glance of the history of philosophy or mythology will illustrate that rejection of ANY new religion is a commonplace occurrence. The degree to which it happened to early Christianity had much more to do with the fact that they refused to pay homage to the Roman genius (older, technical term, not 'really smart'), which even the essentially monotheistic Stoics had the good sense to do, and thus, were seen as potential threats to the Roman state. So boo hoo, your cult got whacked a bit harder than usual because you didn't play the Romans' game.

 

Your second point is an unabashed appeal to authority, thus a logical fallacy, and thus, invalid.

 

Quote:
To escape its hold on the heart is a miracle surgery done by the knife of the Spirit of God.  The patients who won't admit they are sick won't allow it.  The elect will respond to Christ "lifted up".  Those who reject will be lost.  Their blood is on themselves.  What a price to pay for pride.

 

Right- but where does sin come from? If you say 'from the Fall', who set up the situation where human beings *could* fail? Who created the serpent and let it loose, knowing (remember- omnipotent) 100% for sure, that it would tempt human beings, and knowing that there was no 'second chance'- one bite, and that was it. And yes, it was one bite, I'm not exaggerating.

 

Now, if you say 'that's the devil,' okay, I'll grant you that. But that poses another problem, a really big one: If god is so all-powerful and all-knowing and all good, why is evil still here? We can't imagine, let alone create, a world where we would have free will and yet not sin. But god could (with god all things are possible.) Hence, god, if not the originator of evil, is the perpetuator and sustainer of evil. Your god is an ass.

 

And when it comes to 'the elect:' This brings up all sorts of questions about 'hardening of hearts' (no, no, not like a heart attack, yeesh) and culpability for sins. If god fore-ordains everyone from the beginning, that means nobody's morally culpable for anything; we only have the illusion of free will and choice. It also means that god is a sadist, because he's punishing people, eternally, for something that took, at most, 120 years (assuming somehow we could all live to be that old, and start sinning REALLY early.) And if those who 'do good' are really just being god's little robots (they can't be otherwise, in a universe with 'the elect') then nobody deserves eternal rewards either. If you truly believe in 'the elect,' then... wow... 

 

Also: This is easily the most artful dodge I've ever seen on these forums (I've done quite a bit of lurking). This is too bad to be true- Fonzie managed to totally avoid all the previous points and make new, and totally inane, comments. Maybe I need clearance from the inner circle of high ranking diplomats here, but I'm calling 'Poe.'

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Fonzie wrote:The passionate

Fonzie wrote:

The passionate rejection unique to the gospel Is actually more proof of its authenticity.

That's funny, because numerous religions make this same claim. Clearly, rejection is not unique to mainstream Christianity. All individuals that have heard of a religion, that don't believe in the religion, effectively "reject" it. Not to mention, there is probably stronger opposition to Islam at this point than Christianity.

 

 

 


 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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crazymonkie wrote:but I'm

crazymonkie wrote:

but I'm calling 'Poe.'

I know it's tempting, but, it's pretty bleak.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle

butterbattle wrote:

crazymonkie wrote:

but I'm calling 'Poe.'

I know it's tempting, but, it's pretty bleak.

 

 

Dammit.

OrdinaryClay wrote:
If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.


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Yeah, this has been running

Yeah, this has been running far too long for that. I'm not even sure there were Poe's wandering the net when this conversation first started.

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Vastet wrote:Yeah, this has

Vastet wrote:

Yeah, this has been running far too long for that. I'm not even sure there were Poe's wandering the net when this conversation first started.

Was gonna say: "This thread is still active?"

 

Amazing.

 

Amazing waste of time.

 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Jill! Where the eff you

Jill!

 

Where the eff you been!?

Missed ya!


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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Jill!
Yep! =^_^=

 

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Where the eff you been!?
Effing the ineffable. er... Just got really busy with minutia. I'm hoping that is all done now.

Kevin R Brown wrote:
Missed ya!
Get your sights recalibrated. Sticking out tongue Eye-wink

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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jcgadfly wrote:Focus on who

jcgadfly wrote:

Focus on who Jesus is? No problem.

He's your perpetual "get out of Hell free" card.

You commit sin -> you ask forgiveness -> you're good to go.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Why is it that the ones who callously disregard divine consequences accuse atheists of ignoring them?

 

 

 

Is it really that easy - "lather, rinse, repeat?"

If the bride is unfaithful to her vows you are saying it's easy for the husband to forgive and the bride to come back - while planning another tryst?

You wouldn't say this is easy if you loved God.  I also think if you knew God you would.

 


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crazymonkie wrote:I'll just

crazymonkie wrote:

I'll just respond to the bits of crazy I think I can reply to.

 

Fonzie wrote:
The passionate rejection unique to the gospel Is actually more proof of its authenticity.

Actually, no. Neither your first point, nor the second, which doesn't follow from the first, are true. The first half is not unique to Christianity, at all. Even a ridiculously cursory glance of the history of philosophy or mythology will illustrate that rejection of ANY new religion is a commonplace occurrence. The degree to which it happened to early Christianity had much more to do with the fact that they refused to pay homage to the Roman genius (older, technical term, not 'really smart'), which even the essentially monotheistic Stoics had the good sense to do, and thus, were seen as potential threats to the Roman state. So boo hoo, your cult got whacked a bit harder than usual because you didn't play the Romans' game.

 

 

I don't know anything about this.

 

 

crazymonkie wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

Your second point is an unabashed appeal to authority, thus a logical fallacy, and thus, invalid.

 

Quote:
To escape its hold on the heart is a miracle surgery done by the knife of the Spirit of God.  The patients who won't admit they are sick won't allow it.  The elect will respond to Christ "lifted up".  Those who reject will be lost.  Their blood is on themselves.  What a price to pay for pride.

 

Right- but where does sin come from? If you say 'from the Fall', who set up the situation where human beings *could* fail? Who created the serpent and let it loose, knowing (remember- omnipotent) 100% for sure, that it would tempt human beings, and knowing that there was no 'second chance'- one bite, and that was it. And yes, it was one bite, I'm not exaggerating.

 

Now, if you say 'that's the devil,' okay, I'll grant you that. But that poses another problem, a really big one: If god is so all-powerful and all-knowing and all good, why is evil still here? We can't imagine, let alone create, a world where we would have free will and yet not sin. But god could (with god all things are possible.) Hence, god, if not the originator of evil, is the perpetuator and sustainer of evil. Your god is an ass.

 

And when it comes to 'the elect:' This brings up all sorts of questions about 'hardening of hearts' (no, no, not like a heart attack, yeesh) and culpability for sins. If god fore-ordains everyone from the beginning, that means nobody's morally culpable for anything; we only have the illusion of free will and choice. It also means that god is a sadist, because he's punishing people, eternally, for something that took, at most, 120 years (assuming somehow we could all live to be that old, and start sinning REALLY early.) And if those who 'do good' are really just being god's little robots (they can't be otherwise, in a universe with 'the elect') then nobody deserves eternal rewards either. If you truly believe in 'the elect,' then... wow... 

 

Also: This is easily the most artful dodge I've ever seen on these forums (I've done quite a bit of lurking). This is too bad to be true- Fonzie managed to totally avoid all the previous points and make new, and totally inane, comments. Maybe I need clearance from the inner circle of high ranking diplomats here, but I'm calling 'Poe.'

 

The "dodging" may be closer to home.

What if you determined never to eat until you learned everything happening in digestion - when and where it happens and how....   What I am suggesting is for the hungry to come buy wine and bread without price and ....eat - really you don't usually have to school the hungry on eating. 

Listen to Jesus and the gospel (see the bread and wine), think about it (chew), meditate on it (break it down into usable nutrients), apply it (make it a part of yourself).  Nobody can steal yesterday's lunch from you.  If you will try it you will find it is manna from heaven my friend. 

On the question of "election" - you and your friends on this forum put a lot of stock in your "freedom to choose" your God (or lack of) - why do you have trouble with God having free will to choose His Own Bride (the church)?

On the subject of "why does evil exist?"  First of all I don't know the answer to that mystery - my God (the God Who spoke the heavens and earth into existence) is far above me and so are His thoughts - so I can only speculate.

First, Jesus has dealt a death blow to sin and the Devil and - those who are "born again", "born from above", "born of the water and the Spirit", "baptized into Christ and into His Death", those "in Christ", "His body - He being Head" - discover they have the power "in Christ" (it's Christ's power and strength) to conquer each our own sinful nature and be ruled by the "new nature" (however, though we are justified before God the war continues until death).  We metaphorically "take the promised land" in ourselves under the leadership of our Commander. 

(This is still in answer to your question "why is there still evil" - my speculation on the why), continuing:   the exercise of our faith is thus an ongoing thing, and I would speculate we are being prepared for the place you mentioned (a place without evil).  If we were placed there without being prepared for it we might not appreciate it any more than the welfare state appreciates tax payers.  I would also throw in the theory that Louis L'amour has - that having an enemy is good for us - it builds character.

As to who created the Serpent - again, the revelation on this is pretty foggy but there is some indication that Satan was an angel that sinned and got thrown out of heaven.  There doesn't seem to be any indication of forgiveness being available for angels who sin (speculating on....I would venture angels have more responsibility?).   Maybe this shows what could happen if you went to heaven unprepared?

The Devil goes around deceiving people and getting them enslaved in sin, making them think he doesn't exist, etc, but I would speculate that the Scriptures indicate that in the end he deceives himself - thinking he and his bunch can whip God.  It's a gnat against a bazooka.

I don't think I've dodged any of your questions.  The Bible - which I believe totally, completely, thoroughly, I love it, all of it - says that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit had the plan of salvation - through Christ - planned and ready before the world was created. 

Jesus was willing, God took the initiative and sent Him, His only begotten Son to become sin for us, to become the Lamb of God, God's Passover Lamb.  And it was all designed to glorify God Who deserves all Glory.  Man can't in any way save himself - however God desires to save man with more desire than withholding the price of that salvation - the torturous death of His Son, all sin being focused on His Son.  God is truly in His element when He forgives sin - He loves to forgive totally.  But man must forsake his sin and follow God.  After being saved by the death of Christ it is easy to hate sin.  We still fall but we recognize it and admit it, acknowledge it and get up and try again.  God is merciful and will continue to "wash our feet" (maintenance cleansing as opposed to the initial total cleansing). 

God has given man the smarts and spiritual ability to discover this and if humble give up on being his own God and come to Him and Christ and be saved.  This works for me and it will work without fail for every man who calls upon the Lord to save him. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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butterbattle wrote:Fonzie

butterbattle wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

The passionate rejection unique to the gospel Is actually more proof of its authenticity.

That's funny, because numerous religions make this same claim. Clearly, rejection is not unique to mainstream Christianity. All individuals that have heard of a religion, that don't believe in the religion, effectively "reject" it. Not to mention, there is probably stronger opposition to Islam at this point than Christianity.

 

 

 

The only passion I can see that rivals that directed at Christianity is anti-Semitism. 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Focus on who Jesus is? No problem.

He's your perpetual "get out of Hell free" card.

You commit sin -> you ask forgiveness -> you're good to go.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Why is it that the ones who callously disregard divine consequences accuse atheists of ignoring them?

 

 

 

Is it really that easy - "lather, rinse, repeat?"

If the bride is unfaithful to her vows you are saying it's easy for the husband to forgive and the bride to come back - while planning another tryst?

You wouldn't say this is easy if you loved God.  I also think if you knew God you would.

 

I didn't say anything of the kind. The Bible, however, says that forgiveness is unconditional and infinite.  At least if you deal with the words of Jesus and Paul.

Hosea is a good OT example of that example you describe.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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jcgadfly wrote:Why is it

jcgadfly wrote:

Why is it that the ones who callously disregard divine consequences accuse atheists of ignoring them?

 

JC gadfly,

Would you explain what you mean by this?  I'm drawing a blank.

tx

 

Fonzie


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Why is it that the ones who callously disregard divine consequences accuse atheists of ignoring them?

 

JC gadfly,

Would you explain what you mean by this?  I'm drawing a blank.

tx

 

Fonzie

Certainly.

As a good modern Christian, you know that Paul of Tarsus (the guy who laid the foundations for your faith) pretty much live as you want to because Paul told believers in Jesus that there is no such thing as sin because sin comes from the law and they're no longer under the law (Romans 4).

I usually here this as "Christians aren't under the commandments because Jesus came and paid the price."

So you guys can live as you will because either you have continual forgiveness (1 John 2:1) or there is no such thing as sin for you (Romans 4).

If the commandments still have any force (as they should if God wrote them, you disregard them because of what is in 1 John and Romans. At the same time, you tell non-believers that they're going to hell for ignoring those precepts you disregard.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Why is it that the ones who callously disregard divine consequences accuse atheists of ignoring them?

 

JC gadfly,

Would you explain what you mean by this?  I'm drawing a blank.

tx

 

Fonzie

Certainly.

As a good modern Christian, you know that Paul of Tarsus (the guy who laid the foundations for your faith) pretty much live as you want to because Paul told believers in Jesus that there is no such thing as sin because sin comes from the law and they're no longer under the law (Romans 4).

I usually here this as "Christians aren't under the commandments because Jesus came and paid the price."

So you guys can live as you will because either you have continual forgiveness (1 John 2:1) or there is no such thing as sin for you (Romans 4).

If the commandments still have any force (as they should if God wrote them, you disregard them because of what is in 1 John and Romans. At the same time, you tell non-believers that they're going to hell for ignoring those precepts you disregard.

 

 

Not quite fair, there, gadfly.  Jesus instructed his followers to "love your neighbor as yourself."  That does not translate to "Live however you want to."  Assuming people followed that command to love their neighbor, that would pretty much take care of all the OT commandments. 

 


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Bootie wrote:jcgadfly

Bootie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Why is it that the ones who callously disregard divine consequences accuse atheists of ignoring them?

 

JC gadfly,

Would you explain what you mean by this?  I'm drawing a blank.

tx

 

Fonzie

Certainly.

As a good modern Christian, you know that Paul of Tarsus (the guy who laid the foundations for your faith) pretty much live as you want to because Paul told believers in Jesus that there is no such thing as sin because sin comes from the law and they're no longer under the law (Romans 4).

I usually here this as "Christians aren't under the commandments because Jesus came and paid the price."

So you guys can live as you will because either you have continual forgiveness (1 John 2:1) or there is no such thing as sin for you (Romans 4).

If the commandments still have any force (as they should if God wrote them, you disregard them because of what is in 1 John and Romans. At the same time, you tell non-believers that they're going to hell for ignoring those precepts you disregard.

 

 

Not quite fair, there, gadfly.  Jesus instructed his followers to "love your neighbor as yourself."  That does not translate to "Live however you want to."  Assuming people followed that command to love their neighbor, that would pretty much take care of all the OT commandments. 

 

This is why I brought up Paul. Paul's version of Christianity is the one most Christians go by and has precious little to do with Jesus except in the appropriation of the name.

Everything after the Gospels (except James) pretty much takes out the loving one another and doing good that Jesus talked about in the Gospels. It went from being a religion of loving and helping others to a "just believe that Jesus was the Son of God and he died for your sins and rose again to take you with him" religion. No real effort at a moral life required.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


crazymonkie
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Fonzie wrote:The passionate

Fonzie wrote:
The passionate rejection unique to the gospel Is actually more proof of its authenticity.

Actually, no. Neither your first point, nor the second, which doesn't follow from the first, are true. The first half is not unique to Christianity, at all. Even a ridiculously cursory glance of the history of philosophy or mythology will illustrate that rejection of ANY new religion is a commonplace occurrence. The degree to which it happened to early Christianity had much more to do with the fact that they refused to pay homage to the Roman genius (older, technical term, not 'really smart'), which even the essentially monotheistic Stoics had the good sense to do, and thus, were seen as potential threats to the Roman state. So boo hoo, your cult got whacked a bit harder than usual because you didn't play the Romans' game.

  

I don't know anything about this.

Precisely the problem. You are basing your philosophical system on something you don't understand, and which you claim is real, but is not. Now, in most circumstances, when someone finds out they believe something untrue, they stop believing it. Paradoxically, religious people try to do mental gymnastics to work around this undeniable falsehood in an attempt to keep what they 'know' is right despite all evidence (actual evidence- not apologist-style 'evidence') to the contrary.

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The "dodging" may be closer to home.

No kidding. The dodge continues.

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What if you determined never to eat until you learned everything happening in digestion - when and where it happens and how....   What I am suggesting is for the hungry to come buy wine and bread without price and ....eat - really you don't usually have to school the hungry on eating.

Bullshit example. We don't need to know how we digest, intellectually, to do it. Our bodies do it. We're born with the capacity unless something really horribly bad happened to us or we weren't born with the capability (very rarely; such people always die very young).

By comparison- how long does it take one to know, intellectually, the 'true' religion? Or even just any Christianity? What about god-concepts?

We are NOT born with these things already known. This is not a priori knowledge. It must be taught, it must be learned.

Try another analogy.

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Listen to Jesus and the gospel (see the bread and wine), think about it (chew), meditate on it (break it down into usable nutrients), apply it (make it a part of yourself).  Nobody can steal yesterday's lunch from you.  If you will try it you will find it is manna from heaven my friend.

See- the biggest problem with that is that some of us (myself included) looked at what it was and thought: It's nothing special. Almost every single moral point Jesus made was already extant in Greek and Roman moral codes. Even his 'dying for our sins' schtick wasn't new- and early Christianity tried its level best to make parallels with the many virgin-birthed, dead-and-dying demigods the cultures from which they came already had.

And this is just assuming Jesus *was* a historical figure to begin with, and thinking of him as a human being whose followers had accreted mythology onto him. There isn't even enough solid evidence for that, though. Here's what you 'believers' have: Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger and Josephus. The first three (even assuming they aren't interpolations, which is possible- highly probable in the case of Tacitus) only talk about *Christians.*

The last has been debunked so many times it's a laugh riot whenever a Christian apologist such as yourself thinks of the Testimonium as 'evidence.' In any case, NONE of these were even alive during the time of Jesus- which is funny, considering that Philo, among others, WAS alive at the time and place, and said nothing. If Philo had, the Christian church would have saved his work and copied it like crazy. That they didn't says there was never anything there. Your Jesus is a man of straw.

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On the question of "election" - you and your friends on this forum put a lot of stock in your "freedom to choose" your God (or lack of) - why do you have trouble with God having free will to choose His Own Bride (the church)?

Dodging the issue. The point is this: If there is an elect, god is unjust. Why? Because if god has pre-ordained a certain number of humans before birth, or even before time, to be punished, and others to get rewards, that means the rewards and punishments are utterly arbitrary and meaningless. Also, 'free will' or even just the will to choose, is an illusion at best.

It also means that god is punishing people for HIS CHOICES! Perhaps you're not getting just how unjust this is. And perhaps you're not seeing how a god like this is not worthy of worship, regardless of how much in charge he may be.

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On the subject of "why does evil exist?"  First of all I don't know the answer to that mystery - my God (the God Who spoke the heavens and earth into existence) is far above me and so are His thoughts - so I can only speculate.

'Mystery of god- STFU!' I LOVE that answer.

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First, Jesus has dealt a death blow to sin and the Devil and - those who are "born again", "born from above", "born of the water and the Spirit", "baptized into Christ and into His Death", those "in Christ", "His body - He being Head" - discover they have the power "in Christ" (it's Christ's power and strength) to conquer each our own sinful nature and be ruled by the "new nature" (however, though we are justified before God the war continues until death).  We metaphorically "take the promised land" in ourselves under the leadership of our Commander.

Uh huh. What about those who think the entire narration is nonsense?

Like, for instance, that god goes to earth- something that never happens in Judaism (hence 'the one true god' wouldn't ever do it in the first place) to fix his own screw-ups and make things 'right' where, if he'd just done what Judaism said he did in the first place (NOT demand moral perfection of humanity) it never would have happened.

If you start thinking about it, all this Jesus business just doesn't add up.

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the exercise of our faith is thus an ongoing thing, and I would speculate we are being prepared for the place you mentioned (a place without evil).

But if we human beings are based in evil- which we are- and if even faith in Jesus doesn't improve us- which it doesn't (please refer to any rotten Christian you've met; I can guarantee you've met lots)- then how does that prepare us for anything? It just seems more like god is being arbitrary than anything else.

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If we were placed there without being prepared for it we might not appreciate it any more than the welfare state appreciates tax payers.

Or god, being infintely powerful and knowledgable, might be able to change our very beings to the point that we could have true free will yet not sin. That he hasn't is a sign of malignancy, incompetence or indifference.

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As to who created the Serpent - again, the revelation on this is pretty foggy but there is some indication that Satan was an angel that sinned and got thrown out of heaven.

Actually, no, 'Satan' was pretty clearly a Christian concotion. And the Serpent wasn't necessarily Satan.

And ANYWAY- GOD CREATED THE SERPENT. Fuck, man, how hard is it for you to just say 'god did it' when it's clear god did it!?!?!

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There doesn't seem to be any indication of forgiveness being available for angels who sin (speculating on....I would venture angels have more responsibility?)

Total side issue, but angels CAN'T sin. They were created to be utterly devoted to the worship and will of god. It's as impossible for angels to sin as it is for mammals to breathe underwater.

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The Devil goes around deceiving people and getting them enslaved in sin, making them think he doesn't exist, etc, but I would speculate that the Scriptures indicate that in the end he deceives himself - thinking he and his bunch can whip God.  It's a gnat against a bazooka.

Then why does god allow it to happen? If Satan's such a bad guy and decieves and leads people astray- that also means that god is allowing this to happen; meaning, he's allowing Satan to bring people into sin, and god is judging people based upon these sins, and somehow this is justice? I don't care about the relative power of the beings- that god does nothing, or very little, reflects very poorly on god's character.

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Jesus was willing, God took the initiative and sent Him, His only begotten Son to become sin for us, to become the Lamb of God, God's Passover Lamb.

And here's another place where it doesn't make sense- god didn't 'send' him- he went himself. And he did it to fix his own mistakes- at least according to Christian doctrine.

According to Judaism, which, again, Christians pay lip service to but don't really believe, god doesn't ask for perfection- only that one tries the best they can to live by the Law. Well- some believe that the Law was for all people (pre-Diaspora; post-Diaspora the Jews settled down quite a bit) but NONE believed god demanded perfection.

Yes, I know, Christians look to the failure of Moses to see the Promised Land and say "Ah hah! See, we're right!" But that was MOSES! He was god's go-to-guy. If he failed, he had much farther to fall- and Jews will look at his failure as a metaphor for how greater a responsibility the Jews have to god than the Gentiles do.

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And it was all designed to glorify God Who deserves all Glory.

God *demands* the glory. He tends to get pissed off at someone who doesn't give him the correct amount of 'his' due. Based on his supposed acts, though, I am not impressed. Particularly with the pathetic dispersion of the 'good news' to 'all corners of the earth' (IE- parts of the Roman empire that had roads). That it took almost four hundred years to get the 'right' doctrine; then many centuries later, people 'discovered' the 'true religion', which got wiped out by the Catholic Church; then hundreds of years after THAT, others discovered the 'really, seriously true religion and I MEAN IT this time'..... how can I be impressed with a god whose followers can't even get the points of their doctrine together? Who can't even agree on what 'god' wants yet still believe in the same god? Just what sort of multi-omni god is this anyway?

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Man can't in any way save himself

'Man' (try 'human', it's less sexist) doesn't NEED to be saved. Well, not from 'sin.' From god, maybe. God is terrifying.

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however God desires to save man with more desire than withholding the price of that salvation - the torturous death of His Son, all sin being focused on His Son.

Aw gee, how nice of him. I didn't ask, and again, nobody needs it.

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God is truly in His element when He forgives sin - He loves to forgive totally.

Then why send Jesus at all? Why not just drop the impossible standards and forgive when forgiveness is waranted?

Your god is precisely the kind of god who I would NOT want running things- arrogant with impossibly high standards, sanctimonious, arbitrary (sending to permanent torment millions of people, some of whom led extraordinary and moral lives based on who does or doesn't believe in Jesus as god), and one whose idea of 'correction' involves ETERNAL torture.

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But man must forsake his sin and follow God.  After being saved by the death of Christ it is easy to hate sin.  We still fall but we recognize it and admit it, acknowledge it and get up and try again.  God is merciful and will continue to "wash our feet" (maintenance cleansing as opposed to the initial total cleansing).

No, what you're describing there is sanctimoniousness. Despite the Christian cry of "I am a sinner!" the egotism and arrogance of the philosophy shows through. As is the case with this quote: You're no better morally than anyone else, but you *think* you are because you say you're 'saved' by Jesus- your god who went to earth to fix the mistakes with his own impossible moral code.

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God has given man the smarts and spiritual ability to discover this and if humble give up on being his own God and come to Him and Christ and be saved.  This works for me and it will work without fail for every man who calls upon the Lord to save him.

We human beings also have the brains to realize when things don't make sense logically. If god wanted everyone saved, he wouldn't have made the story so senseless, and god wouldn't have entrusted the re-telling of the story to fallible human beings. Clearly this is the case, so what does this say about your god? That he's incompetent, indifferent or malignant, basically. If god was in the picture, human failings should have been minimized, yet this was not the case; we see about the same level of human error as in any other philosophy- and changes, many, despite the claims of god not changing.

Also: If god is going to condemn me to an eternity of torture just because I can see that his story and what he does does not make sense, then so be it. I'll gladly go to hell cursing his name- and with good reason. Your god is a twit. Or he's cruel. Or he doesn't care.

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If you don't believe your non-belief then you don't believe and you must not be an atheist.


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Why is it that the ones who callously disregard divine consequences accuse atheists of ignoring them?

 

JC gadfly,

Would you explain what you mean by this?  I'm drawing a blank.

tx

 

Fonzie

Certainly.

As a good modern Christian, you know that Paul of Tarsus (the guy who laid the foundations for your faith) pretty much live as you want to because Paul told believers in Jesus that there is no such thing as sin because sin comes from the law and they're no longer under the law (Romans 4).

I usually here this as "Christians aren't under the commandments because Jesus came and paid the price."

So you guys can live as you will because either you have continual forgiveness (1 John 2:1) or there is no such thing as sin for you (Romans 4).

If the commandments still have any force (as they should if God wrote them, you disregard them because of what is in 1 John and Romans. At the same time, you tell non-believers that they're going to hell for ignoring those precepts you disregard.

 

 

JC Gadfly,

Kindly, no - en toto. 

 

Take a look at the last half of 1 Cor 6.  We have been "bought with a price" for the purpose of glorifying God.  Or earlier in the same chapter, "do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?"  You can read the list.

 

Paul thought he was doing right but had an awakening to the spiritual nature of the law - which is discovered in the light of Christ.  It all turned on the question of Who Christ Was and Is - as it does with you my friend.

 

Jesus showed the Law of God was much more than the letter; for instance, "lust" was adultery, "hate" was as murder, etc.  Jesus revealed the spiritual nature of the Law of God. 

 

While Paul thought he was following the Law of God in good conscience, killing Christians - he found he had to turn his ship 180 deg when awakened to the truth that Jesus is LORD. 

 

From then on (Rom 7) he describes the normal state of the life of faith in Jesus as war - war by the new nature against the old nature.

 

Paul condemns the abuse of grace you mentioned, "shall we sin that grace may abound?" (Rom 6) No way - is the answer.

 

A question from me if I may:  JC - have you truly found what you are looking for?  Would you still trade all your pearls for the ultimate pearl?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Bootie wrote:jcgadfly

Bootie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Why is it that the ones who callously disregard divine consequences accuse atheists of ignoring them?

 

JC gadfly,

Would you explain what you mean by this?  I'm drawing a blank.

tx

 

Fonzie

Certainly.

As a good modern Christian, you know that Paul of Tarsus (the guy who laid the foundations for your faith) pretty much live as you want to because Paul told believers in Jesus that there is no such thing as sin because sin comes from the law and they're no longer under the law (Romans 4).

I usually here this as "Christians aren't under the commandments because Jesus came and paid the price."

So you guys can live as you will because either you have continual forgiveness (1 John 2:1) or there is no such thing as sin for you (Romans 4).

If the commandments still have any force (as they should if God wrote them, you disregard them because of what is in 1 John and Romans. At the same time, you tell non-believers that they're going to hell for ignoring those precepts you disregard.

 

 

Not quite fair, there, gadfly.  Jesus instructed his followers to "love your neighbor as yourself."  That does not translate to "Live however you want to."  Assuming people followed that command to love their neighbor, that would pretty much take care of all the OT commandments. 

 

 

 

Right - and Jesus defines true love and gives the strength of Spirit to accomplish it.

 

 

 

 


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jcgadfly wrote:Bootie

jcgadfly wrote:

Bootie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Why is it that the ones who callously disregard divine consequences accuse atheists of ignoring them?

 

JC gadfly,

Would you explain what you mean by this?  I'm drawing a blank.

tx

 

Fonzie

Certainly.

As a good modern Christian, you know that Paul of Tarsus (the guy who laid the foundations for your faith) pretty much live as you want to because Paul told believers in Jesus that there is no such thing as sin because sin comes from the law and they're no longer under the law (Romans 4).

I usually here this as "Christians aren't under the commandments because Jesus came and paid the price."

So you guys can live as you will because either you have continual forgiveness (1 John 2:1) or there is no such thing as sin for you (Romans 4).

If the commandments still have any force (as they should if God wrote them, you disregard them because of what is in 1 John and Romans. At the same time, you tell non-believers that they're going to hell for ignoring those precepts you disregard.

 

 

Not quite fair, there, gadfly.  Jesus instructed his followers to "love your neighbor as yourself."  That does not translate to "Live however you want to."  Assuming people followed that command to love their neighbor, that would pretty much take care of all the OT commandments. 

 

This is why I brought up Paul. Paul's version of Christianity is the one most Christians go by and has precious little to do with Jesus except in the appropriation of the name.

Everything after the Gospels (except James) pretty much takes out the loving one another and doing good that Jesus talked about in the Gospels. It went from being a religion of loving and helping others to a "just believe that Jesus was the Son of God and he died for your sins and rose again to take you with him" religion. No real effort at a moral life required.

 

 

 

 

JC Gadfly,

 

If yo look at Romans 9 Paul says he could wish to give up his salvation to save his fellow Jews.  (He could honestly wish this - Jesus did it).  But Paul agonized over those who hadn't had the awakening he had.

 

He was shipwrecked, scourged, jailed, stoned, etc, yet counted it joy sharing the sufferings of Christ. 

 

Paul's life was a model of love - though he would have rejected such praise or glory.  He would have directed all glory to Christ which is right.  He viewed himself as being poured out on the offering, a living sacrifice for Christ in the interests of the lost, the ones Jesus was directing him to. 

 

Please reconsider your perspective.  The Scriptures are all in harmony - all from the Spirit of Christ. 

 

 

 

 


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crazymonkie wrote:Fonzie

crazymonkie wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
The passionate rejection unique to the gospel Is actually more proof of its authenticity.

Actually, no. Neither your first point, nor the second, which doesn't follow from the first, are true. The first half is not unique to Christianity, at all. Even a ridiculously cursory glance of the history of philosophy or mythology will illustrate that rejection of ANY new religion is a commonplace occurrence. The degree to which it happened to early Christianity had much more to do with the fact that they refused to pay homage to the Roman genius (older, technical term, not 'really smart'), which even the essentially monotheistic Stoics had the good sense to do, and thus, were seen as potential threats to the Roman state. So boo hoo, your cult got whacked a bit harder than usual because you didn't play the Romans' game.

  

I don't know anything about this.

Precisely the problem. You are basing your philosophical system on something you don't understand, and which you claim is real, but is not. Now, in most circumstances, when someone finds out they believe something untrue, they stop believing it. Paradoxically, religious people try to do mental gymnastics to work around this undeniable falsehood in an attempt to keep what they 'know' is right despite all evidence (actual evidence- not apologist-style 'evidence') to the contrary.

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The "dodging" may be closer to home.

No kidding. The dodge continues.

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What if you determined never to eat until you learned everything happening in digestion - when and where it happens and how....   What I am suggesting is for the hungry to come buy wine and bread without price and ....eat - really you don't usually have to school the hungry on eating.

Bullshit example. We don't need to know how we digest, intellectually, to do it. Our bodies do it. We're born with the capacity unless something really horribly bad happened to us or we weren't born with the capability (very rarely; such people always die very young).

By comparison- how long does it take one to know, intellectually, the 'true' religion? Or even just any Christianity? What about god-concepts?

We are NOT born with these things already known. This is not a priori knowledge. It must be taught, it must be learned.

Try another analogy.

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Listen to Jesus and the gospel (see the bread and wine), think about it (chew), meditate on it (break it down into usable nutrients), apply it (make it a part of yourself).  Nobody can steal yesterday's lunch from you.  If you will try it you will find it is manna from heaven my friend.

See- the biggest problem with that is that some of us (myself included) looked at what it was and thought: It's nothing special. Almost every single moral point Jesus made was already extant in Greek and Roman moral codes. Even his 'dying for our sins' schtick wasn't new- and early Christianity tried its level best to make parallels with the many virgin-birthed, dead-and-dying demigods the cultures from which they came already had.

And this is just assuming Jesus *was* a historical figure to begin with, and thinking of him as a human being whose followers had accreted mythology onto him. There isn't even enough solid evidence for that, though. Here's what you 'believers' have: Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger and Josephus. The first three (even assuming they aren't interpolations, which is possible- highly probable in the case of Tacitus) only talk about *Christians.*

The last has been debunked so many times it's a laugh riot whenever a Christian apologist such as yourself thinks of the Testimonium as 'evidence.' In any case, NONE of these were even alive during the time of Jesus- which is funny, considering that Philo, among others, WAS alive at the time and place, and said nothing. If Philo had, the Christian church would have saved his work and copied it like crazy. That they didn't says there was never anything there. Your Jesus is a man of straw.

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On the question of "election" - you and your friends on this forum put a lot of stock in your "freedom to choose" your God (or lack of) - why do you have trouble with God having free will to choose His Own Bride (the church)?

Dodging the issue. The point is this: If there is an elect, god is unjust. Why? Because if god has pre-ordained a certain number of humans before birth, or even before time, to be punished, and others to get rewards, that means the rewards and punishments are utterly arbitrary and meaningless. Also, 'free will' or even just the will to choose, is an illusion at best.

It also means that god is punishing people for HIS CHOICES! Perhaps you're not getting just how unjust this is. And perhaps you're not seeing how a god like this is not worthy of worship, regardless of how much in charge he may be.

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On the subject of "why does evil exist?"  First of all I don't know the answer to that mystery - my God (the God Who spoke the heavens and earth into existence) is far above me and so are His thoughts - so I can only speculate.

'Mystery of god- STFU!' I LOVE that answer.

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First, Jesus has dealt a death blow to sin and the Devil and - those who are "born again", "born from above", "born of the water and the Spirit", "baptized into Christ and into His Death", those "in Christ", "His body - He being Head" - discover they have the power "in Christ" (it's Christ's power and strength) to conquer each our own sinful nature and be ruled by the "new nature" (however, though we are justified before God the war continues until death).  We metaphorically "take the promised land" in ourselves under the leadership of our Commander.

Uh huh. What about those who think the entire narration is nonsense?

Like, for instance, that god goes to earth- something that never happens in Judaism (hence 'the one true god' wouldn't ever do it in the first place) to fix his own screw-ups and make things 'right' where, if he'd just done what Judaism said he did in the first place (NOT demand moral perfection of humanity) it never would have happened.

If you start thinking about it, all this Jesus business just doesn't add up.

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the exercise of our faith is thus an ongoing thing, and I would speculate we are being prepared for the place you mentioned (a place without evil).

But if we human beings are based in evil- which we are- and if even faith in Jesus doesn't improve us- which it doesn't (please refer to any rotten Christian you've met; I can guarantee you've met lots)- then how does that prepare us for anything? It just seems more like god is being arbitrary than anything else.

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If we were placed there without being prepared for it we might not appreciate it any more than the welfare state appreciates tax payers.

Or god, being infintely powerful and knowledgable, might be able to change our very beings to the point that we could have true free will yet not sin. That he hasn't is a sign of malignancy, incompetence or indifference.

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As to who created the Serpent - again, the revelation on this is pretty foggy but there is some indication that Satan was an angel that sinned and got thrown out of heaven.

Actually, no, 'Satan' was pretty clearly a Christian concotion. And the Serpent wasn't necessarily Satan.

And ANYWAY- GOD CREATED THE SERPENT. Fuck, man, how hard is it for you to just say 'god did it' when it's clear god did it!?!?!

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There doesn't seem to be any indication of forgiveness being available for angels who sin (speculating on....I would venture angels have more responsibility?)

Total side issue, but angels CAN'T sin. They were created to be utterly devoted to the worship and will of god. It's as impossible for angels to sin as it is for mammals to breathe underwater.

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The Devil goes around deceiving people and getting them enslaved in sin, making them think he doesn't exist, etc, but I would speculate that the Scriptures indicate that in the end he deceives himself - thinking he and his bunch can whip God.  It's a gnat against a bazooka.

Then why does god allow it to happen? If Satan's such a bad guy and decieves and leads people astray- that also means that god is allowing this to happen; meaning, he's allowing Satan to bring people into sin, and god is judging people based upon these sins, and somehow this is justice? I don't care about the relative power of the beings- that god does nothing, or very little, reflects very poorly on god's character.

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Jesus was willing, God took the initiative and sent Him, His only begotten Son to become sin for us, to become the Lamb of God, God's Passover Lamb.

And here's another place where it doesn't make sense- god didn't 'send' him- he went himself. And he did it to fix his own mistakes- at least according to Christian doctrine.

According to Judaism, which, again, Christians pay lip service to but don't really believe, god doesn't ask for perfection- only that one tries the best they can to live by the Law. Well- some believe that the Law was for all people (pre-Diaspora; post-Diaspora the Jews settled down quite a bit) but NONE believed god demanded perfection.

Yes, I know, Christians look to the failure of Moses to see the Promised Land and say "Ah hah! See, we're right!" But that was MOSES! He was god's go-to-guy. If he failed, he had much farther to fall- and Jews will look at his failure as a metaphor for how greater a responsibility the Jews have to god than the Gentiles do.

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And it was all designed to glorify God Who deserves all Glory.

God *demands* the glory. He tends to get pissed off at someone who doesn't give him the correct amount of 'his' due. Based on his supposed acts, though, I am not impressed. Particularly with the pathetic dispersion of the 'good news' to 'all corners of the earth' (IE- parts of the Roman empire that had roads). That it took almost four hundred years to get the 'right' doctrine; then many centuries later, people 'discovered' the 'true religion', which got wiped out by the Catholic Church; then hundreds of years after THAT, others discovered the 'really, seriously true religion and I MEAN IT this time'..... how can I be impressed with a god whose followers can't even get the points of their doctrine together? Who can't even agree on what 'god' wants yet still believe in the same god? Just what sort of multi-omni god is this anyway?

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Man can't in any way save himself

'Man' (try 'human', it's less sexist) doesn't NEED to be saved. Well, not from 'sin.' From god, maybe. God is terrifying.

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however God desires to save man with more desire than withholding the price of that salvation - the torturous death of His Son, all sin being focused on His Son.

Aw gee, how nice of him. I didn't ask, and again, nobody needs it.

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God is truly in His element when He forgives sin - He loves to forgive totally.

Then why send Jesus at all? Why not just drop the impossible standards and forgive when forgiveness is waranted?

Your god is precisely the kind of god who I would NOT want running things- arrogant with impossibly high standards, sanctimonious, arbitrary (sending to permanent torment millions of people, some of whom led extraordinary and moral lives based on who does or doesn't believe in Jesus as god), and one whose idea of 'correction' involves ETERNAL torture.

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But man must forsake his sin and follow God.  After being saved by the death of Christ it is easy to hate sin.  We still fall but we recognize it and admit it, acknowledge it and get up and try again.  God is merciful and will continue to "wash our feet" (maintenance cleansing as opposed to the initial total cleansing).

No, what you're describing there is sanctimoniousness. Despite the Christian cry of "I am a sinner!" the egotism and arrogance of the philosophy shows through. As is the case with this quote: You're no better morally than anyone else, but you *think* you are because you say you're 'saved' by Jesus- your god who went to earth to fix the mistakes with his own impossible moral code.

Quote:
God has given man the smarts and spiritual ability to discover this and if humble give up on being his own God and come to Him and Christ and be saved.  This works for me and it will work without fail for every man who calls upon the Lord to save him.

We human beings also have the brains to realize when things don't make sense logically. If god wanted everyone saved, he wouldn't have made the story so senseless, and god wouldn't have entrusted the re-telling of the story to fallible human beings. Clearly this is the case, so what does this say about your god? That he's incompetent, indifferent or malignant, basically. If god was in the picture, human failings should have been minimized, yet this was not the case; we see about the same level of human error as in any other philosophy- and changes, many, despite the claims of god not changing.

Also: If god is going to condemn me to an eternity of torture just because I can see that his story and what he does does not make sense, then so be it. I'll gladly go to hell cursing his name- and with good reason. Your god is a twit. Or he's cruel. Or he doesn't care.

 

 

 

Crazymonkie,

 

The digestion analogy is a good one if you will disarm your reactor.  You don't need to know how to digest the Scriptures either - you are built for it if you will just try it.  Taste and see that the Lord is Good.

 

I can't say anything that will enable you to awaken to the truth that Jesus is Lord.  I wish I could light your lamp - but you can only get that fire from God.  I hope and pray you will get it. 

 

The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, searching his innermost parts.  As you know ignorance in this world is darkness.  But if you mistakenly call lies "light" - you have two coats of darkness.

 

Push it all back and take a lowly heart look and see if it doesn't look different.  All these other ideas are a distraction to you honestly looking into it.

 

As to election - you can fight reality but it's obvious God does things the way He pleases - creation in general or men in specific.  He doesn't treat all men the same.  Some are born in palaces, some in hovels.  Some are strong and beautiful - others crippled and sick and blind.  The Potter doesn't leave the clay to decide - He has a purpose.

 

If any man is saved it's because God enabled him to come to Christ - it isn't because the man deserved it.  It's God's choice. 

And if any man is lost - it's the man's own fault.  He sold his own birthright. 

 

These two principles are friends, there's no conflict.  No man will be able to say he cried out to Christ to save him and Christ wasn't able to.  But if you honestly did cry out to Him it would be because God had brought you to it.   The work of salvation is all God's work.  Man doesn't have a hand in it.  That's part of man's problem - getting his pride out of the way. 

 

As for craving for life without risk of failure - God doesn't want to surround Himself with robots I guess.  The King of Kings has won and bought the total love and dedication of His subjects.  We love Him.  We would die for Him I hope. 

 

As to whether angels sin - 2 Peter 2.2 says angels have sinned.  I'll have to go with that sorry. 

 

As to God bringing Satan and sin to justice - there is a time for everything.  There is a time for the student to fail the test and possibly correct.  Freedom from failure would fill the world with sissies I bet.  Plus you'd soon be as bored with it as "sissors-paper-rock". 

 

Moses illustrates that the Law can bring us to salvation but not accomplish it.  Joshua took the Israelites over into the promised and.

 

 

We "take the land" following our Commander in Chief Jesus.  The enemy is overwhelming and has iron chariots but in Christ we find we can defeat our old nature.  It's spiritual warfare.  It's pretty neat - you would like it.  It's job security too - you have to always be vigilant, watch, be ready - you have to guard your heart.  You need light for that - come to Christ Crazymonkie and get your lamp lit.  I'm for you in this.

 

As to impressing you - you're a hard one to impress Crazymonkie.  I certainly can't do it.  I wish I could.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie, I'm going to try to

Fonzie,

I'm going to try to take on the three posts to me at once. I hope it won't be crazy long.

First post:

1. Paul wrote the ground rules for your religion 20 years before the gospel writers sat down and wrote their work but he didn't create your religion?

2. Bought with a price? who paid? Jesus Christ sacrificed nothing to redeem me.

3. I agree that Paul wrote his work to focus on the spiritual (gnosticism did that) and that the Gospel writers wrote Jesus to fit. That's why I say that you can pretty much do as you please as a Christian as long as you are convinces that your spirit is OK with God. I've seen too many examples to back up that position. Is this where you tell me "they weren't real Christians"?

4. Paul does write that in Romans 6 - right after he eliminates sin in Romans 4. It's called a self-contradiction. He couldn't keep it together for a chapter and a half?

5. No that's why I keep looking. If I wanted to rest on my laurels and think "Jesus saved me - I don't have to seek truth and knowledge any more. I have all I need", I'd still be a Christian. I'd also still have the self esteem of a rock and be thinking  about suicide daily (thanks to the continual reinforcement of my worthlessness in God's sight by the church).
 

Second post:

So Jesus is perfect love and the Christians follow his example and live like him (according to the spirit he gives them)? If that's the case, Christianity is a failure of monumental proportions. That's why conversion got reduced to "ask Jesus to come into your heart and believe that Jesus died for you, rose again and forgives your sins". Being helpful to society is just too hard.

Third post:

1. Does it surprise me that Paul claimed he went through all that? Not really. I expect the guy who is embellishing his autobiography to make himself look good. Doesn't make any of it true. On Paul and Jesus wishing to give up their salvation - see #2 under "First post:" Nothing is not that hard of a sacrifice to make.

2. Paul's live was a model of love - unless you had ovaries. Then, not so much.

3. It also doesn't surprise me that Paul wrote himself as a paragon of humility for the reason given in 1.

4. Except for the hundreds of contradictions in scripture, you might have something there. They did try with Jesus, though. Paul created the idea and the Gospel writers gave im a human-like backstory and backtracked through the OT to hook him to as many Messianic prophecies as they could.

If you want me to reconsider my perspective - give me something worth reconsidering

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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PEACE IN JESUS THROUGH PRINCIPLE OF FAITH

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie,

I'm going to try to take on the three posts to me at once. I hope it won't be crazy long.

First post:

1. Paul wrote the ground rules for your religion 20 years before the gospel writers sat down and wrote their work but he didn't create your religion?

 

 

If Jesus is Lord, the Son of God - then we can accept Scripture as true and also what He said about the OT writers and writings - that they spoke of Him.

The gospel message and the Savior symbols and types are throughout Scripture.

And God and Jesus had the gospel planned before the creation of the world, again according to Scripture, which is all true if Jesus is truly the Son of God.

If you believe in the Son of God with your heart you will bust through all these doubts and questionings - which will go on until it is too late.

 

 

jcgadfly wrote:

2. Bought with a price? who paid? Jesus Christ sacrificed nothing to redeem me.

 

 

If Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, the Lamb of God - He sacrificed His Life for those He came to redeem.

 

God commands all men to repent and believe in Jesus and live.  That includes you.

 

The fact that God commands it - proves      that you can do it.  So far     you refuse       to your own hurt.  That could all change in an instant my friend.

 

 

 

jcgadfly wrote:

3. I agree that Paul wrote his work to focus on the spiritual (gnosticism did that) and that the Gospel writers wrote Jesus to fit. That's why I say that you can pretty much do as you please as a Christian as long as you are convinces that your spirit is OK with God. I've seen too many examples to back up that position. Is this where you tell me "they weren't real Christians"?

 

 

No this is the point that I tell you that if your heart is awakened to "Jesus is Lord" and "Jesus loved and died for me"    and you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth and life - you will not only be saved but hate sin.  What will please your Lord and Savior Who died for you - will please you

 

 

jcgadfly wrote:

4. Paul does write that in Romans 6 - right after he eliminates sin in Romans 4. It's called a self-contradiction. He couldn't keep it together for a chapter and a half?

 

 

 

JCgadfly my friend,

You are unfortunately in contradiction the moment you take a step in the Scriptures because you don't believe in Jesus.  The contradiction is not in Scripture my friend.

 

 

jcgadfly wrote:

5. No that's why I keep looking. If I wanted to rest on my laurels and think "Jesus saved me - I don't have to seek truth and knowledge any more. I have all I need", I'd still be a Christian. I'd also still have the self esteem of a rock and be thinking  about suicide daily (thanks to the continual reinforcement of my worthlessness in God's sight by the church).

 

 

Ahhh, man!   You probably went down one of those dark "trust in my own righteousness" roades - a dismal trip to doom.

 

Don't let it inoculate you my friend.  Trusting in and having fellowship with the Living Jesus in your heart is true joy.  You'll break through all fog of psychobabble.

 

 

jcgadfly wrote:

Second post:

So Jesus is perfect love and the Christians follow his example and live like him (according to the spirit he gives them)? If that's the case, Christianity is a failure of monumental proportions. That's why conversion got reduced to "ask Jesus to come into your heart and believe that Jesus died for you, rose again and forgives your sins". Being helpful to society is just too hard.

 

 

Another clue you were working hard at your favorite "self righteousness" - helping society were you and are you?  That's good, but you can't ask salvation of it.  In Christ you can enjoy doing good works without a selfish purpose - instead to glorify Him.

 

True we are not all we want to be, but He is merciful and we can be truthful with Him and work at it.  Still all the time we are justified before God in Him.  God looks at us with the favor He has toward His Son.  That doesn't mean we are necessarily justified before men - or even ourselves at times.  But our faith is not in ourselves, our feelings, our works - but in Him. 

 

You may be making the mistake of thinking God is like you my friend.

 

 

jcgadfly wrote:

Third post:

1. Does it surprise me that Paul claimed he went through all that? Not really. I expect the guy who is embellishing his autobiography to make himself look good. Doesn't make any of it true. On Paul and Jesus wishing to give up their salvation - see #2 under "First post:" Nothing is not that hard of a sacrifice to make.

 

 

It's logical if you don't believe Jesus to be what He claimed - that you don't believe Paul true either.

 

 

jcgadfly wrote:

2. Paul's live was a model of love - unless you had ovaries. Then, not so much.

 

 

The Spirit of Christ through Paul taught that a man should love his wife like Christ loved the church (His bride) - but again your barrier to understanding is not believing in Christ.

 

 

jcgadfly wrote:
3. It also doesn't surprise me that Paul wrote himself as a paragon of humility for the reason given in 1.

 

It would all click if you believed in Jesus as God has commanded so you can live.

 

 

jcgadfly wrote:
4. Except for the hundreds of contradictions in scripture, you might have something there. They did try with Jesus, though. Paul created the idea and the Gospel writers gave im a human-like backstory and backtracked through the OT to hook him to as many Messianic prophecies as they could.

If you want me to reconsider my perspective - give me something worth reconsidering

 

 

 

 

 

Believe in Jesus and live. 

 

 


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JillSwift wrote:Fonzie

JillSwift wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
Hi; I don't care!

Fonzie wrote:
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I still don't care!

Fonzie wrote:
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
Really, I do not care!

Fonzie wrote:
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel?
I don't think you're fooling yourself.

I know you're fooling yourself.

But I don't care.

I do care, however, that you so-called Christians want to make your faith into public policy. Keep your faith to yourselves and you can waste your time praying and reading a 2000 year old piece of very badly written fiction all you like with no interference from me at all.

But try to take away my rights based on your make-believe religious morality and I will stand up for myself. And don't tell me "but, I'm not taking away your rights" because if you stand by and allow other Christians to make war on my right to live by my will, then you are guilty of a sin of omission.

Next time, I suggest you take the time to read a forum before you post in it, because every idiot jackass of a theist that has ever marched in here has asked the exact same questions and gotten the exact same answers. It's not my fault you can't be arsed to do some reading on your own.

[/quote}

Well put, and thank you!


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treat2 wrote:JillSwift

treat2 wrote:
JillSwift wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
Hi; I don't care!

Fonzie wrote:
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I still don't care!

Fonzie wrote:
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
Really, I do not care!

Fonzie wrote:
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel?
I don't think you're fooling yourself.

I know you're fooling yourself.

But I don't care.

I do care, however, that you so-called Christians want to make your faith into public policy. Keep your faith to yourselves and you can waste your time praying and reading a 2000 year old piece of very badly written fiction all you like with no interference from me at all.

But try to take away my rights based on your make-believe religious morality and I will stand up for myself. And don't tell me "but, I'm not taking away your rights" because if you stand by and allow other Christians to make war on my right to live by my will, then you are guilty of a sin of omission.

Next time, I suggest you take the time to read a forum before you post in it, because every idiot jackass of a theist that has ever marched in here has asked the exact same questions and gotten the exact same answers. It's not my fault you can't be arsed to do some reading on your own.

[/quote} Well put, and thank you!

 

 

There are no slaves like those who are slaves to their enemies.  And those are the greatest slaves who are the slaves to their own self destroying wrong ideas and attitudes.

 

 

 


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Fonzie, you claim my

Fonzie, you claim my alternatives are

1. be a slave to a God who wants me to kiss his backside and tell him how great he is or he'll toss me into a burning hell because he loves me.

or

2. Be a slave to my enemies.

 

I honestly can't see the difference in the choices.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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 So basically from these

 So basically from these six pages of complete dodging by Fonzie the only thing that is pretty clear is that he's a monument to confirmation bias.

 

Fonzie, you're incapable of critical thinking and have admitted it on several occasions by saying you either don't understand or that something is god's will. I have to admit I chuckled a little when you said the scripture flows perfectly with your life etc... but then stated that it must have been part of god's plan for a bear to kill someone. You'd rather admit fault in your understanding of scripture/god than ever question the motives and reasoning behind why you can't question those motives (oh yeah, that's right, it's built right into your religion, a self-sustaining, self-fulfilling prophecy of ignorance). The problem with your system of beliefs is there is no reality check in place. You can never go too far or too low in the interpretations of a book as ambiguous as the bible. I've seen you completely dodge some of the most direct questions to only respond with a bible passage or a terrible analogy. Your mind is so clearly incapable of conceiving of anything exterior to Jesus I almost wanted to call a 'Poe' several times while reading all the comments.

 

You say you have proven it to yourself beyond a doubt that Jesus/god exists but still discredit all other religious followers who give the same arguments as you have? The brain activity you exhibit during your prayer or experience with god/jesus is no different than someone of Islam or Buddhism or an atheist who meditates for that matter. The context with which you frame your presuppositions are the only thing that differs.

 

The inherent error in the majority of your "arguments" is that we have to believe (have "faith" ) in order to believe. In this respect your beliefs are absolutely no different than any other superstition. You want us to consciously look for any small pattern, no matter how small/stupid/ignorant/mundane, to affirm a belief in something even more asinine. You want us to throw logic and reasoning out the window for a petty emotional-based system that makes links between things that have none. You have nothing but unfalsifiable dribble to peddle and not a shred of evidence but your own personal experiences. Guess what, there are a few billion other people out there that have completely different personal experiences, your set of Christian beliefs are in the minority, who are we to believe? You are effectively asking a person who knows how a specific magic trick is done to forget how it's done and be mesmerized by it for the rest of his life.

 

What is your reason for not living if god does not exist? (Don't give me the "I can't imagine the world existing without god so I can't answer" BS either)

 


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No fucking way I'm gonna

No fucking way I'm gonna read
7 pages of this crap.

Personally, I don't give a fuck as to what he believes.

Belief is different than action, and as far as the action of posting, he's not hurting anyone.

I'm not bothering further with this thread, so I''m not gonna debate that the guy was
lumped in with fundamentalists that he dislikes, and expressed empathy with unfair treatment of Atheists.

That he was swarmed by the hive wasn't unexpected.

JS started off fine, and the subsequent poster responded in kind.

Obviously the guy asked some potentially inflammatory questions which was idiotic, as nobody would do the same on a Christian forum... so for that, rough eatment was deserved.

My unsolicited suggestion to you assholes is if you ACTUALLY want to have a rational conversation with Theists that venture here,
swarming them with BS won't get you anywhere at all, and you might as well just ban
them because you're sure as shit not gonna get any Theist to consider the rational behind Atheism, if that's there interest, or even
if it's your own interest.


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treat2 wrote:No fucking way

treat2 wrote:
No fucking way I'm gonna read 7 pages of this crap. Personally, I don't give a fuck as to what he believes. Belief is different than action, and as far as the action of posting, he's not hurting anyone. I'm not bothering further with this thread, so I''m not gonna debate that the guy was lumped in with fundamentalists that he dislikes, and expressed empathy with unfair treatment of Atheists. That he was swarmed by the hive wasn't unexpected. JS started off fine, and the subsequent poster responded in kind. Obviously the guy asked some potentially inflammatory questions which was idiotic, as nobody would do the same on a Christian forum... so for that, rough eatment was deserved. My unsolicited suggestion to you assholes is if you ACTUALLY want to have a rational conversation with Theists that venture here, swarming them with BS won't get you anywhere at all, and you might as well just ban them because you're sure as shit not gonna get any Theist to consider the rational behind Atheism, if that's there interest, or even if it's your own interest.

 

Then what the hell is the entire point of these forums or debating anyone at all for that matter then treat2? A majority of the posts in this thread were legit, non-patranizing Q&A with Fonzie. What is one supposed to do when they wont even consider the possibility of why there reasoning is wrong? What can you do with someone who ignores much of the reasoning that is derived from the very world he lives in in favor of an unprovable, unfalsifiable, and wholly ambigious system of beliefs based off of misinformation and completely subjective interpretations?

 

It's all find and dandy for him to live out his life the way he chose but he came to these forums willingly to discuss it. I commend Fonzie for sticking with it and attempting to defend his beliefs instead of running away or resorting to nothing but name-calling, I wish more theists would do so.


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie, you

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie, you claim my alternatives are

1. be a slave to a God who wants me to kiss his backside and tell him how great he is or he'll toss me into a burning hell because he loves me.

or

2. Be a slave to my enemies.

 

I honestly can't see the difference in the choices.

 

 

 

 

JCGadfly,

 

Friend, the reason you can't see the difference is: blindness to it is part of the slavery.  It's the Devil and his angels keeping a double watch over you so you don't escape.

Plus you have been schooled and spring-loaded against any effort to rescue you - with attitude.

If you become able to see this and escape it will be with the help of God - because it will be a miracle (all salvation is). 

If you don't and are lost - it will be your own fault.  You have sold your own birtghright.  In the end you won't be able to accuse God.

My suggestion is you cry out to God for Him to help you - and mean it.  There won't be any who can ever wsay he cried out to the LORD to save him and the LORD wasn't able to.  There won't be such an example in the end.

 


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Di66en6ion wrote: So

Di66en6ion wrote:

 So basically from these six pages of complete dodging by Fonzie the only thing that is pretty clear is that he's a monument to confirmation bias.

 

Fonzie, you're incapable of critical thinking and have admitted it on several occasions by saying you either don't understand or that something is god's will. I have to admit I chuckled a little when you said the scripture flows perfectly with your life etc... but then stated that it must have been part of god's plan for a bear to kill someone. You'd rather admit fault in your understanding of scripture/god than ever question the motives and reasoning behind why you can't question those motives (oh yeah, that's right, it's built right into your religion, a self-sustaining, self-fulfilling prophecy of ignorance). The problem with your system of beliefs is there is no reality check in place. You can never go too far or too low in the interpretations of a book as ambiguous as the bible. I've seen you completely dodge some of the most direct questions to only respond with a bible passage or a terrible analogy. Your mind is so clearly incapable of conceiving of anything exterior to Jesus I almost wanted to call a 'Poe' several times while reading all the comments.

 

You say you have proven it to yourself beyond a doubt that Jesus/god exists but still discredit all other religious followers who give the same arguments as you have? The brain activity you exhibit during your prayer or experience with god/jesus is no different than someone of Islam or Buddhism or an atheist who meditates for that matter. The context with which you frame your presuppositions are the only thing that differs.

 

The inherent error in the majority of your "arguments" is that we have to believe (have "faith" ) in order to believe. In this respect your beliefs are absolutely no different than any other superstition. You want us to consciously look for any small pattern, no matter how small/stupid/ignorant/mundane, to affirm a belief in something even more asinine. You want us to throw logic and reasoning out the window for a petty emotional-based system that makes links between things that have none. You have nothing but unfalsifiable dribble to peddle and not a shred of evidence but your own personal experiences. Guess what, there are a few billion other people out there that have completely different personal experiences, your set of Christian beliefs are in the minority, who are we to believe? You are effectively asking a person who knows how a specific magic trick is done to forget how it's done and be mesmerized by it for the rest of his life.

 

What is your reason for not living if god does not exist? (Don't give me the "I can't imagine the world existing without god so I can't answer" BS either)

 

 

 

Di66en6ion my friend,

 

I admit my faith in Jesus and God is "heart based" as you have said.  I also see your belief (or whatever you want to call it) as "heart based" and insensitive to evidence and reasoning. 

There are many things in life no one understands but you have to bridge over that troubled water with your word in your heart, "there is no God". 

There is a difference however:  I have come to KNOW my God in His forgiveness of me.

At the point of His forgiveness - yes, because I believed in Jesus - He gave me a new heart and wrote His law on my heart.  That's a tablet that will last for all eternity - an immortal spirit.

He has forgiven me in Christ, anointed me with oil for my lamp, fired it up as well, and I am peacefully going about getting acquainted with Him.  Since He has forgiven me the dread of coming into His presence (dread like Adam and Eve in the garden)Is gone.  I am able to enjoy personal fellowship with Him. 

I am bragging on what He has done - it is all His work.

A child that doesn't have much knowledge still knows his father.

The fact that I don't know much "historically", "scientifically", "artistically", "providentially" about my Father doesn't matter to me because I KNOW HIM and talk to Him.  He dwells with me and in me.  Your blindness to Him doesn't faze me because I understand it.  I was once blind like you.

You may read things about God in the Bible and see things in creation that are manifestations of God's Glory but they don't reveal God to you.  The reason is as you have said: you don't believe in Jesus in your heart of hearts.

If you come to have eyes to see the truth of the gospel it will be because God enables you.  It has happened to many who have resisted like you.  I pray it does with you too - but it's not something I can do with reasoning with you.  It's a miracle between you personally and
God.  And unlike a magic trick you might understand - this you don't.

Since I know my Father I have no quarrel with anything He says or does or has done - as you have said.  In fact, not trying to irritate you, I delight in everything He has said and done and is doing in me and others I know.  This is the honest truth.

 

 


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treat2 wrote:No fucking way

treat2 wrote:
No fucking way I'm gonna read 7 pages of this crap. Personally, I don't give a fuck as to what he believes. Belief is different than action, and as far as the action of posting, he's not hurting anyone. I'm not bothering further with this thread, so I''m not gonna debate that the guy was lumped in with fundamentalists that he dislikes, and expressed empathy with unfair treatment of Atheists. That he was swarmed by the hive wasn't unexpected. JS started off fine, and the subsequent poster responded in kind. Obviously the guy asked some potentially inflammatory questions which was idiotic, as nobody would do the same on a Christian forum... so for that, rough eatment was deserved. My unsolicited suggestion to you assholes is if you ACTUALLY want to have a rational conversation with Theists that venture here, swarming them with BS won't get you anywhere at all, and you might as well just ban them because you're sure as shit not gonna get any Theist to consider the rational behind Atheism, if that's there interest, or even if it's your own interest.

 

Hey Treat2,

 

Not sure if you're reading this but I read your message and don't take it personally. 

I guess even atheists don't all see their belief (or whatever you call it) the same either - or how to go ab out expressing/applying it.

There are probably all different levels of atheist maturity represented here and I won't be offended by any level.  You being secure in your atheism, happy, fulfilled, - that probably keeps you from being offended at my faith.  We share that - I'm the same - comfortable with your heartfelt and cordial concern for my well being.

Have a good atheist day - if such exists.

 

 

 


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Di66en6ion wrote:treat2

Di66en6ion wrote:

treat2 wrote:
No fucking way I'm gonna read 7 pages of this crap. Personally, I don't give a fuck as to what he believes. Belief is different than action, and as far as the action of posting, he's not hurting anyone. I'm not bothering further with this thread, so I''m not gonna debate that the guy was lumped in with fundamentalists that he dislikes, and expressed empathy with unfair treatment of Atheists. That he was swarmed by the hive wasn't unexpected. JS started off fine, and the subsequent poster responded in kind. Obviously the guy asked some potentially inflammatory questions which was idiotic, as nobody would do the same on a Christian forum... so for that, rough eatment was deserved. My unsolicited suggestion to you assholes is if you ACTUALLY want to have a rational conversation with Theists that venture here, swarming them with BS won't get you anywhere at all, and you might as well just ban them because you're sure as shit not gonna get any Theist to consider the rational behind Atheism, if that's there interest, or even if it's your own interest.

 

Then what the hell is the entire point of these forums or debating anyone at all for that matter then treat2? A majority of the posts in this thread were legit, non-patranizing Q&A with Fonzie. What is one supposed to do when they wont even consider the possibility of why there reasoning is wrong? What can you do with someone who ignores much of the reasoning that is derived from the very world he lives in in favor of an unprovable, unfalsifiable, and wholly ambigious system of beliefs based off of misinformation and completely subjective interpretations?

 

It's all find and dandy for him to live out his life the way he chose but he came to these forums willingly to discuss it. I commend Fonzie for sticking with it and attempting to defend his beliefs instead of running away or resorting to nothing but name-calling, I wish more theists would do so.

 

 

 

Yes, I don't know where I put it - but I thought I was here by invitation.....

Thanks for renewing that.

 

 

 


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Hi Fonzie,I have a couple

Hi Fonzie,

I have a couple more questions.

Do you believe in hell?

Is the only way to salvation repenting of your sins Jesus Christ?

What happens to people in hell?

Thanks.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Fonzie wrote:Di66en6ion my

Fonzie wrote:

Di66en6ion my friend,

 

I admit my faith in Jesus and God is "heart based" as you have said.  I also see your belief (or whatever you want to call it) as "heart based" and insensitive to evidence and reasoning.

There is a difference however:  I have come to KNOW my God in His forgiveness of me.

At the point of His forgiveness - yes, because I believed in Jesus - He gave me a new heart and wrote His law on my heart.  That's a tablet that will last for all eternity - an immortal spirit.

He has forgiven me in Christ, anointed me with oil for my lamp, fired it up as well, and I am peacefully going about getting acquainted with Him.  Since He has forgiven me the dread of coming into His presence (dread like Adam and Eve in the garden)Is gone.  I am able to enjoy personal fellowship with Him. 

I am bragging on what He has done - it is all His work

You may read things about God in the Bible and see things in creation that are manifestations of God's Glory but they don't reveal God to you.  The reason is as you have said: you don't believe in Jesus in your heart of hearts.

If you come to have eyes to see the truth of the gospel it will be because God enables you.  It has happened to many who have resisted like you.  I pray it does with you too - but it's not something I can do with reasoning with you.  It's a miracle between you personally and
God.  And unlike a magic trick you might understand - this you don't.

Since I know my Father I have no quarrel with anything He says or does or has done - as you have said.  In fact, not trying to irritate you, I delight in everything He has said and done and is doing in me and others I know.  This is the honest truth

 

If by "heart based" you mean emotionally based then I would have to dissagree with you. If you have the evidence I'm willing to listen. Calling me insensitive to evidence and reason is quite ironic. There is no emotion that is pure in any sense of the word, they can all drive men to do horrible things. Love is no exception.

Personal evidence in the form of testomony is worthless to me because of the tricks the human mind can play on itself and on others, intentionally or not.. I don't think you understand that a large majority of what you wrote here isn't going to get through to anyone that's not already indoctrinated into your faith. Your arguments with exception of a few words are no different than someone of Islam would say yet you expect me to believe you over them.

Fonzie wrote:
There are many things in life no one understands but you have to bridge over that troubled water with your word in your heart, "there is no God".

I think you misunderstand a lot of what people on these boards believe. Most of us aren't debating over whether "a god" exists but over what various faith's claim to be god. Most people here know the idea of a god could never be affirmed or disproven unambiguously.

I personally have never told myself "there is no god" because I know the question can't be answered by any faith. IMO the closest concept of a god that matches reality is ourselves, beings able to conciously ascribe meaning to anything we want in a way nothing else before us has done. 

The majority of the people on these boards have a problem with your particular god because of the attributes assigned to him/it. There is absolutely no justification as far as I can tell for punishing someone infinitely for a finite sin. The idea of simply believing in someone and being absolved of past sins makes my previous statement even more troubling. There is no moral code that Christianity has that didn't exist before its invention.

 

Fonzie wrote:
A child that doesn't have much knowledge still knows his father

The fact that I don't know much "historically", "scientifically", "artistically", "providentially" about my Father doesn't matter to me because I KNOW HIM and talk to Him.

Then I'd contend that you don't know him at all. You can find out more about a person and there intentions in five minutes than you apperently have in a lifetime of talking to god. All you know is an emotion and a conditioned response to look at everything as non-coincidental to affirm a supersition

 

You pretty much admitted that you believe anything you think your god says without question. Would you be willing to kill if it was asked of you by god? (because people have done so under that exact premise)

 

Also you didn't answer my other question. What is your reason for not living if god does not exist?

 

 

 

 


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butterbattle wrote:Hi

butterbattle wrote:

Hi Fonzie,

I have a couple more questions.

Do you believe in hell?

Is the only way to salvation repenting of your sins Jesus Christ?

What happens to people in hell?

Thanks.

 

Do you believe in hell?

 

 

"And I say unto you that many shall come from the east and west and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.  But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness:  there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth": - Matthew 8:11,12

 

 

I don't "believe in hell" - I "believe in Jesus".  You see here what Jesus says about hell - and this I believe.

 

Friend, I would remind you that Scriptures say Jesus was a "man of sorrows, acquainted with grief" - my speculation is that one of His greatest sorrows is that many wouldn't accept THE escape from hell.

 

Is Jesus the only way?

 

Again, Scripture says there is One LORD, one faith, one baptism.  Jesus is the Lamb of God Who planned to come be the atoning sacrifice for our sins - b efore the world was created.  Upon arriving Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life - no man comes to the Father except by Me".  Jesus is not just the Way to Life - He is with us on the Way, all the way.

 

What happens to people in hell?

 

The Spirit of Jesus through the Revelation of John reveals to us that "as for the cowardly, the faithless, polluted, murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be the lake that b urns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death." 

 

I would say that what happens to people in hell is - they finally arrive at what they have struggled to have and are determined to have in spite of all God's heart-broken efforts to move them to repent and accept His mercy and instead have eternal Life. 

God does not force men to obey His command to "repent and believe in Jesus", in fact, men are free to even mock God about it and still be forgiven.  But God wants men to repent and be saved - and so do I.

 

 

 

 


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Di66en6ion wrote:Fonzie

Di66en6ion wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Di66en6ion my friend,

 

I admit my faith in Jesus and God is "heart based" as you have said.  I also see your belief (or whatever you want to call it) as "heart based" and insensitive to evidence and reasoning.

There is a difference however:  I have come to KNOW my God in His forgiveness of me.

At the point of His forgiveness - yes, because I believed in Jesus - He gave me a new heart and wrote His law on my heart.  That's a tablet that will last for all eternity - an immortal spirit.

He has forgiven me in Christ, anointed me with oil for my lamp, fired it up as well, and I am peacefully going about getting acquainted with Him.  Since He has forgiven me the dread of coming into His presence (dread like Adam and Eve in the garden)Is gone.  I am able to enjoy personal fellowship with Him. 

I am bragging on what He has done - it is all His work

You may read things about God in the Bible and see things in creation that are manifestations of God's Glory but they don't reveal God to you.  The reason is as you have said: you don't believe in Jesus in your heart of hearts.

If you come to have eyes to see the truth of the gospel it will be because God enables you.  It has happened to many who have resisted like you.  I pray it does with you too - but it's not something I can do with reasoning with you.  It's a miracle between you personally and
God.  And unlike a magic trick you might understand - this you don't.

Since I know my Father I have no quarrel with anything He says or does or has done - as you have said.  In fact, not trying to irritate you, I delight in everything He has said and done and is doing in me and others I know.  This is the honest truth

 

If by "heart based" you mean emotionally based then I would have to dissagree with you. If you have the evidence I'm willing to listen. Calling me insensitive to evidence and reason is quite ironic. There is no emotion that is pure in any sense of the word, they can all drive men to do horrible things. Love is no exception.

Personal evidence in the form of testomony is worthless to me because of the tricks the human mind can play on itself and on others, intentionally or not.. I don't think you understand that a large majority of what you wrote here isn't going to get through to anyone that's not already indoctrinated into your faith. Your arguments with exception of a few words are no different than someone of Islam would say yet you expect me to believe you over them.

 

 

 

Di66i6ion my friend,

 

Here's what I mean by your position being "heart based".  You have gone through a gate somewhere that leaves God and Jesus out of your field of life.  Since you went through that door you have gathered knowledge and impression that supports that position. 

I have "first believed" at a fixed point in my life, then gone through a different door - the "Way, Truth and Life", what I present to you as the "Door of Doors". 

Since that time the things I have learned and experienced support that decision.  I have arrived at a different place than you.  It's spacious and level.

You seem to want to start with the last part of this - what I have learned and experienced that supports my relationship with God (post entry) - and then decide from that whether you believe in Jesus. 

My experience and supporting knowledge from my fellowship with God in Christ doesn't move you any more than your supporting disbelief moves me.  I'm not trying to irritate you.  This just appears to b e the way it is. 

The things that mean something to you in your unbelief mean nothing to me, and vice versa.

 

Di66i6ion wrote:

 

 

 

Fonzie wrote:
There are many things in life no one understands but you have to bridge over that troubled water with your word in your heart, "there is no God".

I think you misunderstand a lot of what people on these boards believe. Most of us aren't debating over whether "a god" exists but over what various faith's claim to be god. Most people here know the idea of a god could never be affirmed or disproven unambiguously.

I personally have never told myself "there is no god" because I know the question can't be answered by any faith. IMO the closest concept of a god that matches reality is ourselves, beings able to conciously ascribe meaning to anything we want in a way nothing else before us has done. 

The majority of the people on these boards have a problem with your particular god because of the attributes assigned to him/it. There is absolutely no justification as far as I can tell for punishing someone infinitely for a finite sin. The idea of simply believing in someone and being absolved of past sins makes my previous statement even more troubling. There is no moral code that Christianity has that didn't exist before its invention.

 

 

 Di66i6ion my friend,

I can't say I totally understand what people on this board believe - you are right.  I didn't come to Christ through philosophical discussion like I see here.  I was looking for something desperately that I didn't have and when I found salvation in Christ I seized it violently.

I didn't stop to ask questions like you debate here.  I did find what I was looking for though - indescribably more.

I think it is reasonable to say some of you are going to debate all the way to the buzzer.  You are going to be paralalyzed with debate.  If so, I think you have fallen for a stall tactic of evil design.

 

Di66i6ion wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
A child that doesn't have much knowledge still knows his father

The fact that I don't know much "historically", "scientifically", "artistically", "providentially" about my Father doesn't matter to me because I KNOW HIM and talk to Him.

Then I'd contend that you don't know him at all. You can find out more about a person and there intentions in five minutes than you apperently have in a lifetime of talking to god. All you know is an emotion and a conditioned response to look at everything as non-coincidental to affirm a supersition.

 

 

You can understand how I am not touched or moved at all by that statement.  I know what I am saying is true, and I understand that you are not moved by my statements.  They relate to your rejection of Christ and my wholehearted acceptance of Him.  You can relate your indifference to mine.

 

Di66i6ion wrote:

 

 

You pretty much admitted that you believe anything you think your god says without question. Would you be willing to kill if it was asked of you by god? (because people have done so under that exact premise)

 

 

If God put me in the position of being a policeman or soldier and somebody needed to be shot I would have no problem shooting them.

The "higher authorities" are placed there by God (Romans in 13th).  I have not been placed in either of those positions of action.  The government is one of God's means of managing the world He created. 

 

Di66i6ion wrote:

 

Also you didn't answer my other question. What is your reason for not living if god does not exist?

 

I glanced at that and thought it was what you guys call your "signature". 

I can't unravel your rhetoric on this - it seems like kind of a verbal puzzle, false dilemma or double negative.  Maybe you can overlay your impression of what would be my answer to it from my position so I can see what you mean. 

God is as real to me as anything.  Actually more. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  Fonzie were you raised in

  Fonzie were you raised in a culture where Christianity was the major religious influence ?


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Fonzie wrote:Di66i6ion

Fonzie wrote:
If God put me in the position of being a policeman or soldier and somebody needed to be shot I would have no problem shooting them.

The "higher authorities" are placed there by God (Romans in 13th).  I have not been placed in either of those positions of action.  The government is one of God's means of managing the world He created.

 

I think you may be inadvertently avoiding the question here. Killing people is part of the job when you're a policeman or a soldier, wether or not you believe god is telling you to pull the trigger.

Maybe he was asking you something more along the lines of : Would you be willing to kill an innocent child if you believed your god asked you to ?


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Fonzie wrote:I would say

Fonzie wrote:

I would say that what happens to people in hell is - they finally arrive at what they have struggled to have and are determined to have in spite of all God's heart-broken efforts to move them to repent and accept His mercy and instead have eternal Life. 

What did they want to have?

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote:Fonzie

butterbattle wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

I would say that what happens to people in hell is - they finally arrive at what they have struggled to have and are determined to have in spite of all God's heart-broken efforts to move them to repent and accept His mercy and instead have eternal Life. 

What did they want to have?

 

Oh, another of the "God doesn't send people to Hell - they go willingly" types.

If only that were a Biblical position - it would really help you out.

The Bible talks about things like being "cast into outer darkness" or being "cast into the lake of fire". If someone has to throw you somewhere, you didn't go willingly.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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 Short Q&A for

 Short Q&A for Fonzie.

 

What would put serious doubt about your beliefs in your Jesus/God?

Some examples I could think off the top of my head would be:

1. How subjective experiences don't have to be real at all for someone to believe them as though they were. Your beliefs and attitudes could be held juxtaposition to someone of various faiths (or someone simply believing in something completely made up) and could be shown to be experiencing the same states in your brains. The sense of certainty is an emotion.

2. Showing the bible to be completely erroneous with respect to history/reality/etc...

 

It's a simple question. It would be like you asking me what would make me believe in your Jesus/God, and I'd answer with something like bringing back a lost loved one to talk to me about it for a day.


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ProzacDeathWish wrote: 

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

  Fonzie were you raised in a culture where Christianity was the major religious influence ?

 

 

ProzacDeathWish,

 

US is said to be a Christian culture - pretty loose term use.  There's a lot of fake empty fluff to be sorted through - which makes it harder to find the substance if you ask me.  And you have to come to terms with why the fake is fake.

 

 

 

 


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Anonymouse wrote:Fonzie

Anonymouse wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
If God put me in the position of being a policeman or soldier and somebody needed to be shot I would have no problem shooting them.

The "higher authorities" are placed there by God (Romans in 13th).  I have not been placed in either of those positions of action.  The government is one of God's means of managing the world He created.

 

I think you may be inadvertently avoiding the question here. Killing people is part of the job when you're a policeman or a soldier, wether or not you believe god is telling you to pull the trigger.

Maybe he was asking you something more along the lines of : Would you be willing to kill an innocent child if you believed your god asked you to ?

 

 

 

Anonymouse,

 

I find nothing in today's gospel concerning killing innocent (or the guilty) other than the prosecuting arm of "governing authorities", executing justice as mentioned. 

 

So trying to imagine what you're asking and I'm inadvertently avoiding - maybe Abraham being ready to offer up Isaac as instructed?  Scriptures say "God tested Abraham", and God told him to go offer up his son that he loved, Isaac, on a mountain God would show him. 

 

Understand that was a different age.  Abraham had direct divine verbal instructions about this.  Abraham was being used to illustrate the faith God wants:  faith in God and His Word and Promises not based on "feelings".  Abraham was willing to follow instructions and sacrifice the son of promise he had waited for so long - believing God could raise Isaac from the dead, so through faith he in effect received Isaac back from the dead. 

 

When Abraham and Isaac walked away from that mountain knowing they had both willingly obeyed God - they passed the test and Abraham became the model of our faith.  But we don't have those instructions.  We are to put to death our fleshly side and walk by the Spirit through faith like Abraham's. 

 

Or were you thinking of the boy stoned when Israel was in the wilderness for blaspheming the Name of God?  That again was direct verbal instruction to Moses from God to stone him.

 

In these last days God has spoken to us through His Son (Hebrews 1).  Through faith we are a witness because faith makes it real as real can be.  But Jesus said nothing about us killing innocent or guilty.  He did say that if you hate your brother you are a murderer.  It's one thing to say one is a believer but another thing to actually be a believer in God and Christ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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butterbattle wrote:Fonzie

butterbattle wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

I would say that what happens to people in hell is - they finally arrive at what they have struggled to have and are determined to have in spite of all God's heart-broken efforts to move them to repent and accept His mercy and instead have eternal Life. 

What did they want to have?

 

 

 

butterbattle,

 

They fell for lies, they were had, they don't actually "want" what they are deceived into thinking they want. 

 

They view the LORD and His Anointed as "bonds" and "cords" - and the breaking free of them as "freedom".  Satan is a master deceiver.  So they are deceived until the end - unless they cry out to God and Jesus Who Both want to rescue them.  But for that to happen some light has to break through the deception.