It works for me!
Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
Fonzie wrote:Proper Gander wrote:Fonzie wrote:
You have to admit that simply NOT believing something is true doesn't make it untrue either.
What if it is true that you HAVE to exist somewhere for eternity?
What if an invisible truck is about to hit you? Will you throw yourself in the mud to get out of its way?
Death is no invisible truck.
That's not what I was saying. I have evidence of death, because people die all the time. I do not have to take that on faith to believe it exist.
What I am saying is that your god and life after death is the invisible truck, because there is no evidence that they exist. I would have to take that on faith to believe in them - just like the invisible truck.
Ok, I see what you mean now.
Yeah, you're right I can't produce the faith thing in anybody. Plus, I think you understand enough of the Bible already to know what you're rejecting and I'm accepting.
Fonzie wrote:Proper Gander wrote:
It basically comes down to evidence. If you can't provide any, then I have no reason to fear your eternal existance scenario any more than I have to fear the invisible truck.
I offer Christ as evidence. He is perfect - there is no flaw in Him. He is worthy of all our worship. His Words are True. He said, "whoever believes in Me will not die". The way He lived and died inspires faith in Him. I think Jesus is His own proof.
You have not proved that this Christ ever existed. You have not proved that if he did, he was perfect.
I can't prove that to you.
You have not given an adequate reason why I, even if he existed and was perfect, should worship him.
I've tried to encourage you to, though.
You have not shown that the words he alegedly said are true.
I've left that for you to decide.
I can go on but it really boils down to this: some people have made up a story about a perfect character called Jesus (don't you hate when authors do that? those characters are always dull and uninteresting) and you believe it is true because it said it is true. It's circular reasoning, and you have no more reason to believe that than you have to believe me if I say that I wrote the bible. (If I wrote the bible, and the bible says it was written by god, and god can't lie, then I must be god and I must be telling the truth.)
No, you've crossed the line here into my decision on these things - and I have decided I have EVERY reason to believe Jesus and ALL the Bible - just like you have the right to reject it. I believe you when you say that you are totally not interested in the Gospel or Jesus or the Bible. You have that right and I shouldn't be bothering you about it.
Fonzie wrote:Proper Gander wrote:Fonzie wrote:I can understand why the good news of eternal life in Christ seems like a scam - actually far greater than the emails that promise a multimillion inheritance from a stranger. It does seem too god to be true, however I have no doubt the gospel of Christ is true and offer my lack of doubt.
I don't think you understand me correctly. An eternal life as portrayed by christianity is completely undesirable to me. It isn't that it sounds "too good to be true", it's that it's completely unfounded, goes against evidence and is pretty counter-intuitive anyway. Plus, it's an awful deal, and I wouldn't want it even if it was true. Thanks, but no thanks. I have no doubt the gospel of christ is false and offer my scepticism.
You are free to reject eternal life in Christ obviously.
"Free", as in "you can choose not to follow my command exactly and unquestioningly, but then I will torture you forever and ever in all eternity", yeah.
I don't have any interest in anything but good for you and everybody on this forum.
And you still haven't shown that something has actually been offered. (Yes, I know that it's offered in the bible; what I'm saying is that you haven't shown that it can actually deliver it.)
True. Faith is a confidence in things not seen.
Fonzie wrote:Proper Gander wrote:Fonzie wrote:RATHER - A GREAT GOD AND THE BEST MASTER!
Ugh, no. Pretending for a second that he exist, he'd be a pretty incompetent god judging from the world situation, and I would never accept him as my master anyway. I'm a free man of a free country.
Another view is that you will is so enslaved and your understanding so darkened that you actually think you are free when you are not.
If I am not free, please do show me how that is so. Quite frankly I believe that applies much better to you and your theistic beliefs than it does to me.
I can't show you that Scripture says all men have sinned and become enslaved by it and can only be freed through the grace that is in Jesus Christ. I beleve Scripture - you don't. From my perspective only God could reveal to you what you are asking here.
jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly wrote:
No one is born a theist. Theism is a process of indoctrination.
Of course the term "indoctrination" characterizes what is taught as a lie.
I view atheism as indoctrination - a denial of the obvious - and theism as acceptance of the reality of God's glory as displayed in His creation.
But He didn't just wind it up and leave - He sent His Son to redeem it and bring the ones to Himself that accept the gift of grace in His Son.
If people were born with a belief in God, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, reality stands against your view.
The bible explains that to a thinking person.jcgadfly wrote:
And I can just as easily paraphrase John 3:16 to "For God so loved the world that he sacrificed Himself to Himself so He could change a rule He made".
You can get the feel for what God did if you read about Abraham's following the instructions to go sacrifice his son Isaac on the mountain. God had an angel stop him but Abraham was going to do it - he was confident God could bring Isaac back to life, so, in effect he received him as if back from the dead through faith. God didn't stop Himself however. In order for Jesus to save those of us who believe He couldn't save Himself.
1. Really? What part of theism is innate? Where does the Bible explain this? Or is this something I have to kiss Yahweh's tush for before I understand?
It would be possible for a child to have unknown biological parents then eventually find them. Tjhe unknown relationship would be innate. God is our Father, our Maker, though unknown to many.
In Romans the first it says..."ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature, namely His eternal power and deity has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse..."
God loves even His enemies. He is merciful therefore to be feared.
As far as understanding - the gospel is so simple a child can understand it. Jesus came and lived a perfect Life, died and paid the price for our sins with His blood, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day and has an Indestructable Life. The Power that raised Him from the dead is at work in those who believe in Him. We give ourselves to die in the waters of believer's baptism and are raised to walk in a new life of freedom in the Lord with the anointing of the Gift of the Spirit.
The biggest problem is probably that it is too easy to understand. Man wants to get his hand in it, his glory. The Glory is all God's however. It's a big problem for man to humble himself to that fact and wholeheartedly let God have the throne rather than himself.jcgadfly wrote:
2. So the Canaanite god Yahweh had to have his demigod son (created by the gospel writers) take a three day holiday before he could be a demigod again? Wow, what a sacrifice (not). If you insist on both Yahweh and Yahshua being god, you have the problem of dead God raising Jesus (also dead God) back to life. The best some can do is the trinity, which is polytheism for those who don't wan to admit to it.
Yes, I understand you don't believe the gospel and work at mocking Jesus and God. I don't hold it against you - and I think you could totally change some day. It's possible.
Who would have thought that Saul would have become a devoted follower of Christ and the Holy Spirit would write a large part of the New Testament through him.
Many are invited to the Marriage Feast. Many have excuses as you seem to - and won't come.
1. The parental relationship is a natural one. Belief in God is not natural - it's learned. Glad you dig it but you didn't have it from birth.
2. The gospel story you relate - "Jesus" can be replaced with several other gods purported to exhibit the same behavior.
3. I see you don't believe in the Gospel either - that's why you preach Paul instead of Jesus.
4. You wrote about the Christian friends you had - how much of your turn to Christianity was a natural need to fit in with their society?
I don't know - but there were other societies at the time that I DIDN'T want to join.
Did you have friends in those "other societies"? It's been my view that Christians can be really cool people when the lights are on and they know others are watching them. It's when they think they're alone when they reveal themselves.
Are you saying there is no such thing as a faithful friend? True, at a certain level a man is not even a faithful friend to himself. But I wonder if you think the only ones capable of being faithful and true (in the light, in the dark) are those with no faith in God.
What are you talking about? All I said is that you felt positive peer pressure (peer pressure you liked) among your Christian friends so you joined them. The societies you say you didn't join you either knew no one there or you got negative peer pressure that made you feel uncomfortable. No faith needed - all human impulses.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin