It works for me!

Fonzie
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It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


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Fonzie wrote:Proper Gander

Fonzie wrote:

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
 

ProperGander,

You have to admit that simply NOT believing something is true doesn't make it untrue either.

What if it is true that you HAVE to exist somewhere for eternity?

What if an invisible truck is about to hit you? Will you throw yourself in the mud to get out of its way?

 

Death is no invisible truck.

That's not what I was saying. I have evidence of death, because people die all the time. I do not have to take that on faith to believe it exist.

What I am saying is that your god and life after death is the invisible truck, because there is no evidence that they exist. I would have to take that on faith to believe in them - just like the invisible truck.

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

It basically comes down to evidence. If you can't provide any, then I have no reason to fear your eternal existance scenario any more than I have to fear the invisible truck.

 

I offer Christ as evidence.  He is perfect - there is no flaw in Him.  He is worthy of all our worship.  His Words are True.  He said, "whoever believes in Me will not die".  The way He lived and died inspires faith in Him.  I think Jesus is His own proof.

You have not proved that this Christ ever existed. You have not proved that if he did, he was perfect. You have not given an adequate reason why I, even if he existed and was perfect, should worship him. You have not shown that the words he alegedly said are true.

I can go on but it really boils down to this: some people have made up a story about a perfect character called Jesus (don't you hate when authors do that? those characters are always dull and uninteresting) and you believe it is true because it said it is true. It's circular reasoning, and you have no more reason to believe that than you have to believe me if I say that I wrote the bible. (If I wrote the bible, and the bible says it was written by god, and god can't lie, then I must be god and I must be telling the truth.)

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
I can understand why the good news of eternal life in Christ seems like a scam - actually far greater than the emails that promise a multimillion inheritance from a stranger.  It does seem too god to be true, however I have no doubt the gospel of Christ is true and offer my lack of doubt.

I don't think you understand me correctly. An eternal life as portrayed by christianity is completely undesirable to me. It isn't that it sounds "too good to be true", it's that it's completely unfounded, goes against evidence and is pretty counter-intuitive anyway. Plus, it's an awful deal, and I wouldn't want it even if it was true. Thanks, but no thanks. I have no doubt the gospel of christ is false and offer my scepticism.

 

 

You are free to reject eternal life in Christ obviously.

"Free", as in "you can choose not to follow my command exactly and unquestioningly, but then I will torture you forever and ever in all eternity", yeah.

And you still haven't shown that something has actually been offered. (Yes, I know that it's offered in the bible; what I'm saying is that you haven't shown that it can actually deliver it.)

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
RATHER - A GREAT GOD AND THE BEST MASTER!

Ugh, no. Pretending for a second that he exist, he'd be a pretty incompetent god judging from the world situation, and I would never accept him as my master anyway. I'm a free man of a free country.

 

Another view is that you will is so enslaved and your understanding so darkened that you actually think you are free when you are not.

If I am not free, please do show me how that is so. Quite frankly I believe that applies much better to you and your theistic beliefs than it does to me.

"Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much fraternizing with the enemy."


darth_josh
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Fonzie wrote:darth_josh

Fonzie wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

Did you have to guard your heart before creating this thread? If so, then how could we operate under the honesty approach? 

 

My "guarding my heart" is something I do all the time 24/7.  What I was trying to say with respect to this thread is that I sort out things in great detail with focus on honesty - not as a matter of holding back anything.  As I said I am conscious of the fact that I can be fooled on things even trying to be honest.

 

Fonzie wrote:

darth_josh wrote:
 

Personally, an honest truthful examination does not try to make things fit into our ideology.

 

I'm not trying to make anything fit anyone's ideology.

 

My point was that by 'guarding your heart', we're not going to be able to discuss anything honestly.

I can give you hundreds, nay thousands of anecdotal examples of your faith in action against humanity. It won't matter, your 'heart is guarded'.

I can show you where scripture has internal contradictions. It won't matter, your 'heart is guarded'.

I can explain the logical inconsistencies in your posts. It won't matter, your 'heart is guarded'.

Do you see what I mean when I say I feel like we can't have an honest discussion?

I will continue, but I suffer no delusion that any of my posts will get past your 'guard'.

 

Fonzie wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

For instance, your response to my question concerning 'everything including the 'bad' simply relies upon the pat answer of:

Fonzie wrote:

The Lord has made everything for its purpose, including evil - and evil forces.

Which is (and I think you see this) a non-arguable answer for you. This is just the parroting of dogma. I want to know why. Why is there 'bad'? Is it to make you feel better? How does it justify your belief? 

 

As you know I totally believe the Bible perspective on this.  The "bad" started when the first man Adam disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden.  Then man was separated from his God.  Then man started forgetting his God and things went from bad to worse.

... which your god already knew would happen. Right?

 

Quote:
I don't believe the idea that man is basically good because that's not what the Scriptures teach (maybe you can show me differently).  I believe man is basically fallen - all of mankind.  Thus it was possible for God's own people (Israel) to even put to death their God made flesh.

A 'good' being created something 'bad'?

The problem is that the only 'good' men in scripture believed in that god. You have no examples of good people devoid of belief in that god in the scriptures. You have nothing to compare the relative terms of 'godly' and 'goodly'. To simply dismiss 'all of mankind' as a failure seems rather cursory don't you think?

Just as you have apparently not met a 'good' atheist, I've never met my 'ideal' christian.

 

Fonzie wrote:
But Jesus came to restore man to his God - to remove the enmity between man and God (sin).  Jesus had no reason to suffer for anything because He was perfect.  He became sin however to take on our sin.  His death became the death of death.  In Him our sins are thus paid for - in Him they are nailed to the tree.

... which in your next paragraph you state that he already knew this was going to happen before the decision to eat the proverbial apple occurred.

Allegedly, he knew that he was planned to suffer.

Allegedly, he knew that after suffering he gets to take the '#2 in the Universe' position.

 

 

Fonzie wrote:
Why is there "bad" or "evil"?  Well, I have to speculate on that.  Since the Scriptures say that God and Jesus had the gospel planned before the world was created I would say that evil could have a good result in that man couldn't solve it himself and the solving of the problem is the glory of God.

The screenplay was written before the movie was made basically. Right?

As an atheist, I see myself as an uncooperative actor in this miserable story of lies and half-truths where the 'hero' dies in the first five minutes and it doesn't mean anything to the rest of the movie.

 

Fonzie wrote:
Through man's experience of evil man can find out that he can't overcome evil by himself - he needs God.  Through the pain and results of evil man could reach out to God undeservedly and God could respond out of His GHreat Love and to His Glory.  So my guess is that the greatest result of evil is the Glory of God rescuing man from it.

Since you get to use 'god' as your metaphor, I'd like to use firefighters in simile.

This idea of god coming to the rescue after creating the problem is like a firefighter being first on the scene to his/her own arson.

Follow me here. He wrote the book where a man eats from a forbidden tree and he sacrifices his son to himself. He made the tree. He made the man. He knew the man would eat from the tree prompting him to sacrifice his son for the man because he ate from the tree he made.

That is not only irrational, but unethical.

It would be the equivalent of planning to put a loaded Glock between two young kids watching Reservoir Dogs and then when they kill someone, you crucify your son to make up for putting the gun there.

 

Fonzie wrote:
How does evil justify my belief?  Well, I found evil unfulfilling, enslaving and a brutal master - I was unfulfilled by it and unhappy in it yet I couldn't escape on my own.

Why not? I quit smoking pcp-laced joints a long time ago. I quit drinking a long time ago. All on my own.

Obviously you didn't want to stop the bad behavior, you wanted to replace it.

Is it that you couldn't tell yourself, "No!" but if you had something else commanding it then you could do it?

 

Fonzie wrote:
The gospel message of redemption seemed too god to be true -

You know what they say about things that are too good to be true don't you?

If it sounds too good to be true then it probably isn't true.

 

Fonzie wrote:
one of the hardest things was thinking it could apply to me.  When I repented I came out in Christ hating and resisting evil and that has never changed.  The Holy Spirit has coached me and showed me I don't need to be defeated by it and in Him I'm not.  I'm always on guard like I said.  Watch a deer or a bird trying to eat something and you'll see what I mean.  I've learned to watch and guard my heart.  I don't do it perfectly but i'm on guard and the Holy Spirit gives me fire and steam to do this.  It works for me.

However, if I lay out poison for the deer or bird to eat... I can't crucify a squirrel to make it better.

It is my contention that YOU are working for you. If you are being 'good' then you are affixing the qualities of what 'good' is.

I know you have pride, but why not self-esteem?

Saying 'it works for me' carries the connotation that it doesn't work for everyone. Yet here I am. It doesn't work for me and I don't want it.

 

Fonzie wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

 Do bad things happen to others in order for you to thank your god that it isn't you?

This may be your impression but it is certainly not the case.  I want good things for everybody.

So do I. However, I'm not going to tell them hell awaits if they don't see the same 'good' as I do.

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:
 

Your fond of metaphor...

Isn't this like the economic stimulus check that makes you feel happy to get extra special treatment even though there is no way that it will change the whole economy? 

No but this appears to be what you view it as - a panacea.  This is instead like the smallest seed that can grow to the mightiest cedar in the most unlikely place.

Soooo, it ONLY works for you might be a better statement?

I'm more concerned with the 'likely' places that this is supposed to be 'working' for people.

It seems convenient to have something allegedly so good fail for some of the people who espouse it.

Likewise, as I mentioned earlier, some people are so much better off without it.

 

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:

Akin to your god on high saying: "Well, there is evil. I made it. But look at these kittens. And you're special."

 This sounds like a second grade "new school" teacher, ha.  My experience with God has been "old school".  He disciplines every son He receives - look what He let go down with His Own Son.  He definitely means what He says and He doesn't say it like you describe.

I'm saying it's the ultimate red herring.

By diverting your attention with promises of joy and treasures while allegedly causing harm to others or showing indifference to some, your 'He' doesn't seem too interested in telling you the truth about the world.

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:

What if... What if your idea of why something happens weren't contingent upon action by a supreme being?

I would be of all men most to be pitied (that's a quote from the Scriptures but I agree with it).  If we both keep on as we are - one of us is going to be disappointed, right?  I'm hoping neither of us is.

That's my point. You're living with the fear of hell and promise of heaven while I am merely living.

For me, it's a great deal either way.

I'll explain that feeling after this next set of quotes.

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:
 

I feel equally as joyful as you profess to be when I figure out a complex situation on my own devoid of faith in jesus that it all works out in the end. Every time.

 

You're different than me in that.  The last complex situation will be death.  If you end up on the other side of death having acdcepted a lie when the truth was available that would be the ultimate swindle - a worm of regret that would never die.

Here's the problem. If I'm altering my behavior when alive in order to get the 'good' side after death then my actions are clearly self-motivated. In other words, choosing to live in a 'christ-like' way isn't because it is good, rather it is gambling on being right and not going to hell.

What if allah is god and mohammed is his prophet? You would be wrong. Meanwhile, I have merely chosen NOT to choose. I remained skeptical.

Allah slaps you for being an infidel and pities me for being ignorant, but still being good. Meanwhile, your only reason to be good was to avoid punishment.

I'm cool with this. At almalhamah, I am 'walked past' instead of 'walked upon'.

The converse to either situation is oblivion. I live my life, I die, and am no more.

Given that there are many gods claiming to be the one true god, you have less than a 1% chance of being right, while I have chosen NOT to be wrong.

Pascal's wager benefits the uncommitted atheist.

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:
 

Certainly, there is a statistical probability that problems work themselves out without my action. However, if the answer was faith then wouldn't I fail in those other times where it was ALL ME doing the fixing? 

 None of us are going to get a backstage pass to these things while on earth.  The way faith in Jesus works in all this (which you are resisting) is that - what Jesus says ends all these questions and conflicting speculations.  Faith breaks through all this because if Jesus says it - it is true.  I don't have to worry about Darth Josh's statistics or Pat Condell's sword thrusts. 

There's that 'faith' word again. Earlier, we discussed honesty.

Yet 'faith' requires someone to be dishonest with themselves by not allowing contingencies contradictory to that faith. You have said so right here. If jesus says it - it is true. Faith means you cannot allow for it to be false.

In every other aspect of our lives, we face the cold hard truth of reality that things are not bound by what we believe them to be.

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:
I think 'faith in jesus' gives you that 'way out' for blame and/or consequence. What do you think?

It could be misused that way true.  The Word of God however instructs me to accept trials as discipline, embrace and ask God for strength to bear it and use it as a spiritual workout - accepting my lot. 

As far as blame, I try to accept whatever blame that is mine though I'm sure I miss some and make it easier for others to forgive me when I'm at blame.  Forgiveness is a basic principle of grace.  Jesus said I have to totally forgive everybody when I come to pray (and I'm to pray constantly) so I can be heard and forgiven.

Doesn't 'He' already know that you're going to pray and what you're going to pray for?

 

Fonzie wrote:
I even get to forgive myself of my blame. 

Yet nothing for the wronged comes from it?

Tell me. Do you believe that a sin against man or mankind is also a sin against god?

Do you believe a sin against god is also a sin against mankind?

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Fonzie wrote: Faith in

Fonzie wrote:

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.

 

So... you're a hedonist?  Isn't it esentially the same thing as hedonism?  You do it because you like it - whether it is true, beneficial, etc.

 

 

My "gospel" (good news) is this:  We don't know why or how, but we exist. and that's really cool!  Woohooo!

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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Fonzie wrote:Jesus said, "a

Fonzie wrote:

Jesus said, "a man's life doesn't consist in an abundance of possessions."  That's becoming more self-evident in my experience and observation.

Second, the Scripture says, "better is a dinner of herbs where love is than a fatted ox and hatred with it."  That experience proves more and more true.  I've had both experiences.

Third, the Spirit of Christ through Solomon said, "Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes?  There is more hope for a fool than for him."  That is proving more and more true as well. 

There are hundreds of ways the Scriptures prove themselves like this every day. 

So, your contention is that the scriptures are true because you agree with its philosophical statements? I even agree with the three verses that you presented, but it doesn't verify the validity of the Bible.

Quote:
It was the Spirit of God coaching them, training them, disciplining them, dwelling with them.

How do you know?

Quote:
The emptiness of not knowing what I'm here for or why - where I came from or where I'm going, of no meaning to life - all things I craved.  The emptiness of thirst in a dry land.

I've seen this metaphor before.

So, Christianity fills this emptiness. It felt like you were missing something. When you devoted yourself to Christ, it felt like you found what you needed. Thus, this helps convince you of the validity of Christianity. Correct?   

Quote:
You don't know me so it's no proof to you

Of course, they're your personal experiences. Unless I could read your mind, I can never know the road you've traveled to become a Christian. 

Do you have any objective evidence? 

Quote:
but to me there has been a total change in life direction ever since - night and day.  I like the direction this is going.
 

I like the direction my life is going too, but this has no bearing on the truth of my worldview.

Quote:
I was born again that same day, born of the water and the Spirit and things turned around and started going the other direction.
  

Quote:
I followed the example of several in the Scriptures.  Peter told Cornelius to be baptized in Acts 10.  Ananias told Paul to be baptized in Acts 9.  It represents giving ourselves to death buried in water by baptism into Christ's death and trusting in God to raise us in a resurrection like His.  It represents washing away our sins in Christ's blood, a substitute sacrifice Who had no sin of His Own but became sin for us.  He willingly let them crucify Him - He could have called for 10,000 angels (one would have been more than enough) but He willingly died, making the sacrifice out of perfect love for the Father and us.

Sigh...I suppose I should have asked a different question. But, thanks for the response. 

Quote:
The heart knows its own sorrow and no stranger shares its joy - so it's a hard thing to describe to another.
 

Which is why, in order to adequately discuss opposing views, we have to present verifiable evidence instead of just playing with our opinions.  

Quote:
Through the eyes of faith we see Him without fail.
 

How? What is it like when you "see" Him?

Quote:
As to security, it is insecure to be living in a body and not be able to resist wrong things.  Christ has strengthened that and brought spiritual security to me - in Him.  In Him I can resist the Devil and my own wrong fleshly desires.

As to understanding there is a whole lifetime of spiritual food in the Scriptures.  I feed on them every day - that statement by Jesus, "man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God", proves true every day.  I have to have the Manna from heaven and Water from the Rock - the Scriptures.  It's hard to read other books after tasting that. 

I've read these kinds of assertions a million times. Although I've been kind of rude in some of my earlier responses, I really want to have a productive discussion now, and this isn't going anywhere.

Quote:
Yes but there is value in trying to communicate right?

Definitely.

Quote:
I have had a little extra time this holiday and I watched/listened to a few you-tube videos by Pat Condell.  Would you say that most of the atheists on this forum agree with his perspective?

There's no way to know for sure. Some of my favorite channels are "potholer54," "aronra," and "donexodus2." 

Quote:
I'm just going to give you the first thing that comes to mind.  The Scripture says it is better to go to the house of mourning than the house of feasting.  I have experienced great messages at funerals and seen the emptiness of feasts. 

Jesus said, "He that saves his life will lose it.  He that loses his life for my sake will find it".  I have had the experience of consciously giving up something that I thought I wanted to do for something I thought God wanted me to do and found something far better than I ever imagined.  I have thought I was going to help someone for example and they ended up helping me far more. 

On the other hand I have consciously gone with what I thought I wanted to do and was let down - it wasn't what I thought it would be at all.

Again, I cannot accept your personal experiences as evidence. 

Quote:
I was not a guy who could ever enjoy a sustained lifetime hobby like fishing, camping, collecting, sky diving, air ballooning - those things would all bore me within 2 weeks.

Oh, I really want to go sky-diving. 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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This thread seemed to veer

This thread seemed to veer slightly off the "kill em with kindness" tenets in several parts.  It has therefore been moved to A vs T. 

I am aware that our warning bar for the Kill Em With Kindness area isn't working, so from now on mods will make an attempt to add "Kill EM With Kindness" to the title of any thread posted in that area.  Please make sure you are aware of the Kill Em With Kindness rules before posting.

1. No ad hominem attacks. (subset: no insults- this includes calling people irrational :shockSmiling unless Ricky devises a good "calling a spade a spade rule."

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3. No preaching (you can use the bible to prove a biblical point, but you can't use the bible as evidence for God. Adam will revise/expand later, this was actually his rule)

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This thread seemed to veer

This thread seemed to veer slightly off the "kill em with kindness" tenets in several parts.  It has therefore been moved to A vs T. 

I am aware that our warning bar for the Kill Em With Kindness area isn't working, so from now on mods will make an attempt to add "Kill EM With Kindness" to the title of any thread posted in that area.  Please make sure you are aware of the Kill Em With Kindness rules before posting.

1. No ad hominem attacks. (subset: no insults- this includes calling people irrational :shockSmiling unless Ricky devises a good "calling a spade a spade rule."

2. No profanity

3. No preaching (you can use the bible to prove a biblical point, but you can't use the bible as evidence for God. Adam will revise/expand later, this was actually his rule)

4. Make every effort to be civil, polite, understanding, and caring for your fellow human.

Another use for this forum (as well as any other forum, you just have to ask) is to conduct one one debates

 

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Yaerav wrote:Fonzie

Yaerav wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
You have to admit that simply NOT believing something is true doesn't make it untrue either.

What if it is true that you HAVE to exist somewhere for eternity?


Hm. I like asking "what if". But there are lots and lots of "what if" questions. What if there is actually an invisible monster under your bed who might grab you if you sleep without covering your ears with your blanket? You may not belief that the monster actually exists, but as you said... that does not, per say, make it untrue either (and besides, millions of children belief that there are monsters under their beds and they cannot áll be wrong, can they?)

Quote:
I can understand why the good news of eternal life in Christ seems like a scam - actually far greater than the emails that promise a multimillion inheritance from a stranger.  It does seem too god to be true, however I have no doubt the gospel of Christ is true and offer my lack of doubt.

Well, you do seem to be a happy camper, so I'd say, good for you and rock on for Jesus Eye-wink

But seriously, the important thing is that you seem to understand why other people doubt the truth of the gospel, and, I bet, will also understand why telling people how much you love Jesus will not, in and of itself convince those people of your truth. There máy be something that might convince some people though, and that is trying to, instead of preaching words, béing as much líke Jesus as you can: be compassionate, kind, forgiving, and basically try to make the world a bettter place. Ghandi once said that he liked Christ- but not christians, because, in his words "your christians are so unlike your christ".

And Ghandi, I think, was quite right there.

Oh, and the best thing about being compassionate, kind and forgiving is that it does not even require being religious- so you could, by setting an example, trick people into being like Jesus without even having to convert them, how cool is that Smiling

Yaeray

It sounds like you have looked into this and made your decision.  So have I.  Know however that the picture you present is misguided.  Ghandi couldn't love Christ if he didn't love those Christ died for.  No man has been more a friend to the world or more hated than Christ.   

As far as "tricking", the apostles set the example of presenting the Gospel straight-forward.  There's no slight of hand in it.  Most of them died for it.

 


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Desdenova wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

I understand what you're saying.  When I was on "dial up" I heard the statement several times, "when you go on broadband you'll never go b ack", but I didn't believe it.  I didn't see much wrong with dial up.  I was satisfied with it at the time. 

What we are talking about here however is like asking the butterfly if he wants to "go back".... and the worm if he wants "to become..."

 

Here is a saying for ya. " Having once thrown off the enslaving shackles of the delusion called religion, I feel nothing but disgust for the slaves that urge me to reapply those reason oppressing chains. " ___ Me

 

Walking by faith with the Living Christ is totally different than what you are addressing.  Sure, there are things the Master wants the servant to do - but He leaves a circle of freedom to develop with the Spirit of God written on the servant's heart...and staying with him every step. 

We have probably both experienced employers too involved - versus the employer that trusts you and lets you know what they want, giving you freedom to work.  God is bertter than the best master in all respects.  The "shackles" you have thrown off are false impressions in my experience.

Particularly if you pick and choose what rules you want to follow - Christ's words get to be too much to ive by, you can always switch to Paul's - his are a lot easier to work with.

 

I totally believe the Scripture that says the writers didn't write from their own impulse but as moved by the Holy Ghost (2 Peter 1.20-21).  I understand you have a different view.


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zarathustra wrote:Fonzie

zarathustra wrote:

Fonzie wrote:


Quote:
So do you think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me?


 No, I think you have turned away from the Fountain of Living Water for a Chia Pet.

As Techno-Elvis taught us, if the water is living, it must be contaminated with E. coli

The story of jesus' resurrection was simply to prepare us for the greater story of Elvis, who overdosed on drugs for our sake, then rose from the dead, and will one day return in glory to Graceland. 

Elvis' favorite fruit was the banana, which is of course the Atheist's Nightmare. 

Elvis has indeed planted seeds on my Chia Pet, and it has grown into a fluffy sheep.  I hope and pray you leave the lesser happiness of jesus behind and find the greater joy of being fleeced by Elvis.


Fonzie wrote:
zarathustra wrote:
  There are no theists on operating tables. 

I'm not planning on being on any operating table - just dying like Moses.

I agree.  For the theist that gets on the operating table admits that his god has failed him in his hour of need.

Do you also plan to write about your own death and burial as Moses did?

 

No - just die.  (Nobody died and made me Elvis) 


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jcgadfly wrote:butterbattle

jcgadfly wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

I'll just give three examples:

Jesus said, "a man's life doesn't consist in an abundance of possessions."  That's becoming more self-evident in my experience and observation.

Second, the Scripture says, "better is a dinner of herbs where love is than a fatted ox and hatred with it."  That experience proves more and more true.  I've had both experiences.

Third, the Spirit of Christ through Solomon said, "Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes?  There is more hope for a fool than for him."  That is proving more and more true as well.

So, because you are poor/ living within your means, have had dinner with friends and enemies, and trust the wisdom of the writers of the Bible more than your own - therefore Christ exists?

I knew "Christ exists" long before I experienced those routine examples of how Scripture proves itself in daily life.  The faith that Christ exists was a small and vulnerable thing - like a white oak my daughter brought home from school 26 years ago - about the size of a pencil.  I didn't think it would make it.  But 23 years later it produced acorns and recently survived an ice storm that hurt 1/4 of the trees in the city.  

I see the survival of my faith as a miracle supervised by God. 


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

No one is born a theist. Theism is a process of indoctrination.

 

Of course the term "indoctrination" characterizes what is taught as a lie. 

I view atheism as indoctrination - a denial of the obvious - and theism as acceptance of the reality of God's glory as displayed in His creation.

But He didn't just wind it up and leave - He sent His Son to redeem it and bring the ones to Himself that accept the gift of grace in His Son.

If people were born with a belief in God, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, reality stands against your view.

The bible explains that to a thinking person.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

[quote

And I can just as easily paraphrase John 3:16 to "For God so loved the world that he sacrificed Himself to Himself so He could change a rule He made".

You can get the feel for what God did if you read about Abraham's following the instructions to go sacrifice his son Isaac on the mountain.  God had an angel stop him but Abraham was going to do it - he was confident God could bring Isaac back to life, so, in effect he received him as if back from the dead through faith. God didn't stop Himself however.  In order for Jesus to save those of us who believe He couldn't save Himself.

 

 

1. Really? What part of theism is innate? Where does the Bible explain this? Or is this something I have to kiss Yahweh's tush for before I understand?

 

jcgadfly,

It would be possible for a child to have unknown biological parents then eventually find them.  Tjhe unknown relationship would be innate.  God is our Father, our Maker, though unknown to many. 

In Romans the first it says..."ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature, namely His eternal power and deity has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.  So they are without excuse..."

God loves even His enemies.  He is merciful therefore to be feared.

As far as understanding - the gospel is so simple a child can understand it.  Jesus came and lived a perfect Life, died and paid the price for our sins with His blood, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day and has an Indestructable Life.  The Power that raised Him from the dead is at work in those who believe in Him.  We give ourselves to die in the waters of believer's baptism and are raised to walk in a new life of freedom in the Lord with the anointing of the Gift of the Spirit. 

The biggest problem is probably that it is too easy to understand.  Man wants to get his hand in it, his glory.  The Glory is all God's however.  It's a big problem for man to humble himself to that fact and wholeheartedly let God have the throne rather than himself.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

 

 

2. So the Canaanite god Yahweh had to have his demigod son (created by the gospel writers) take a three day holiday before he could be a demigod again? Wow, what a sacrifice (not). If you insist on both Yahweh and Yahshua being god, you have the problem of dead God raising Jesus (also dead God) back to life. The best some can do is the trinity, which is polytheism for those who don't wan to admit to it.

 

Yes, I understand you don't believe the gospel and work at mocking Jesus and God.  I don't hold it against you - and I think you could totally change some day.  It's possible.

Who would have thought that Saul would have become a devoted follower of Christ and the Holy Spirit would write a large part of the New Testament through him.

Many are invited to the Marriage Feast.  Many have excuses as you seem to - and won't come.

1. The parental relationship is a natural one. Belief in God is not natural - it's learned. Glad you dig it but you didn't have it from birth.

2. The gospel story you relate - "Jesus" can be replaced with several other gods purported to exhibit the same behavior.

3. I see you don't believe in the Gospel either - that's why you preach Paul instead of Jesus.

4. You wrote about the Christian friends you had - how much of your turn to Christianity was a natural need to fit in with their society?

 

I don't know - but there were other societies at the time that I DIDN'T want to join. 

Did you have friends in those "other societies"? It's been my view that Christians can be really cool people when the lights are on and they know others are watching them. It's when they think they're alone when they reveal themselves.

 

JCGadfly,

Are you saying there is no such thing as a faithful friend?  True, at a certain level a man is not even a faithful friend to himself.  But I wonder if you think the only ones capable of being faithful and true (in the light, in the dark) are those with no faith in God.


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Proper Gander wrote:Fonzie

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
 

ProperGander,

You have to admit that simply NOT believing something is true doesn't make it untrue either.

What if it is true that you HAVE to exist somewhere for eternity?

What if an invisible truck is about to hit you? Will you throw yourself in the mud to get out of its way?

 

Death is no invisible truck.

That's not what I was saying. I have evidence of death, because people die all the time. I do not have to take that on faith to believe it exist.

What I am saying is that your god and life after death is the invisible truck, because there is no evidence that they exist. I would have to take that on faith to believe in them - just like the invisible truck.

 

Ok, I see what you mean now.

Yeah, you're right I can't produce the faith thing in anybody.  Plus, I think you understand enough of the Bible already to know what you're rejecting and I'm accepting. 

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

It basically comes down to evidence. If you can't provide any, then I have no reason to fear your eternal existance scenario any more than I have to fear the invisible truck.

 

I offer Christ as evidence.  He is perfect - there is no flaw in Him.  He is worthy of all our worship.  His Words are True.  He said, "whoever believes in Me will not die".  The way He lived and died inspires faith in Him.  I think Jesus is His own proof.

You have not proved that this Christ ever existed. You have not proved that if he did, he was perfect.

 

 

I can't prove that to you. 

Proper Gander wrote:

 

You have not given an adequate reason why I, even if he existed and was perfect, should worship him.

I've tried to encourage you to, though.

Proper Gander wrote:

You have not shown that the words he alegedly said are true.

 

 

I've left that for you to decide.

 

Proper Gander wrote:

I can go on but it really boils down to this: some people have made up a story about a perfect character called Jesus (don't you hate when authors do that? those characters are always dull and uninteresting) and you believe it is true because it said it is true. It's circular reasoning, and you have no more reason to believe that than you have to believe me if I say that I wrote the bible. (If I wrote the bible, and the bible says it was written by god, and god can't lie, then I must be god and I must be telling the truth.)

 

No, you've crossed the line here into my decision on these things - and I have decided I have EVERY reason to believe Jesus and ALL the Bible - just like you have the right to reject it.  I believe you when you say that you are totally not interested in the Gospel or Jesus or the Bible.  You have that right and I shouldn't be bothering you about it.  

Proper Gander wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
I can understand why the good news of eternal life in Christ seems like a scam - actually far greater than the emails that promise a multimillion inheritance from a stranger.  It does seem too god to be true, however I have no doubt the gospel of Christ is true and offer my lack of doubt.

I don't think you understand me correctly. An eternal life as portrayed by christianity is completely undesirable to me. It isn't that it sounds "too good to be true", it's that it's completely unfounded, goes against evidence and is pretty counter-intuitive anyway. Plus, it's an awful deal, and I wouldn't want it even if it was true. Thanks, but no thanks. I have no doubt the gospel of christ is false and offer my scepticism.

 

 

You are free to reject eternal life in Christ obviously.

"Free", as in "you can choose not to follow my command exactly and unquestioningly, but then I will torture you forever and ever in all eternity", yeah. 

 

I don't have any interest in anything but good for you and everybody on this forum.

Proper Gander wrote:

And you still haven't shown that something has actually been offered. (Yes, I know that it's offered in the bible; what I'm saying is that you haven't shown that it can actually deliver it.)

True.  Faith is a confidence in things not seen. 

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
RATHER - A GREAT GOD AND THE BEST MASTER!

Ugh, no. Pretending for a second that he exist, he'd be a pretty incompetent god judging from the world situation, and I would never accept him as my master anyway. I'm a free man of a free country.

 

Another view is that you will is so enslaved and your understanding so darkened that you actually think you are free when you are not.

If I am not free, please do show me how that is so. Quite frankly I believe that applies much better to you and your theistic beliefs than it does to me.

 

I can't show you that Scripture says all men have sinned and become enslaved by it and can only be freed through the grace that is in Jesus Christ.  I beleve Scripture - you don't.  From my perspective only God could reveal to you what you are asking here.


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

No one is born a theist. Theism is a process of indoctrination.

 

Of course the term "indoctrination" characterizes what is taught as a lie. 

I view atheism as indoctrination - a denial of the obvious - and theism as acceptance of the reality of God's glory as displayed in His creation.

But He didn't just wind it up and leave - He sent His Son to redeem it and bring the ones to Himself that accept the gift of grace in His Son.

If people were born with a belief in God, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, reality stands against your view.

The bible explains that to a thinking person.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

[quote

And I can just as easily paraphrase John 3:16 to "For God so loved the world that he sacrificed Himself to Himself so He could change a rule He made".

You can get the feel for what God did if you read about Abraham's following the instructions to go sacrifice his son Isaac on the mountain.  God had an angel stop him but Abraham was going to do it - he was confident God could bring Isaac back to life, so, in effect he received him as if back from the dead through faith. God didn't stop Himself however.  In order for Jesus to save those of us who believe He couldn't save Himself.

 

 

1. Really? What part of theism is innate? Where does the Bible explain this? Or is this something I have to kiss Yahweh's tush for before I understand?

 

jcgadfly,

It would be possible for a child to have unknown biological parents then eventually find them.  Tjhe unknown relationship would be innate.  God is our Father, our Maker, though unknown to many. 

In Romans the first it says..."ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature, namely His eternal power and deity has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.  So they are without excuse..."

God loves even His enemies.  He is merciful therefore to be feared.

As far as understanding - the gospel is so simple a child can understand it.  Jesus came and lived a perfect Life, died and paid the price for our sins with His blood, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day and has an Indestructable Life.  The Power that raised Him from the dead is at work in those who believe in Him.  We give ourselves to die in the waters of believer's baptism and are raised to walk in a new life of freedom in the Lord with the anointing of the Gift of the Spirit. 

The biggest problem is probably that it is too easy to understand.  Man wants to get his hand in it, his glory.  The Glory is all God's however.  It's a big problem for man to humble himself to that fact and wholeheartedly let God have the throne rather than himself.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

 

 

2. So the Canaanite god Yahweh had to have his demigod son (created by the gospel writers) take a three day holiday before he could be a demigod again? Wow, what a sacrifice (not). If you insist on both Yahweh and Yahshua being god, you have the problem of dead God raising Jesus (also dead God) back to life. The best some can do is the trinity, which is polytheism for those who don't wan to admit to it.

 

Yes, I understand you don't believe the gospel and work at mocking Jesus and God.  I don't hold it against you - and I think you could totally change some day.  It's possible.

Who would have thought that Saul would have become a devoted follower of Christ and the Holy Spirit would write a large part of the New Testament through him.

Many are invited to the Marriage Feast.  Many have excuses as you seem to - and won't come.

1. The parental relationship is a natural one. Belief in God is not natural - it's learned. Glad you dig it but you didn't have it from birth.

2. The gospel story you relate - "Jesus" can be replaced with several other gods purported to exhibit the same behavior.

3. I see you don't believe in the Gospel either - that's why you preach Paul instead of Jesus.

4. You wrote about the Christian friends you had - how much of your turn to Christianity was a natural need to fit in with their society?

 

I don't know - but there were other societies at the time that I DIDN'T want to join. 

Did you have friends in those "other societies"? It's been my view that Christians can be really cool people when the lights are on and they know others are watching them. It's when they think they're alone when they reveal themselves.

 

JCGadfly,

Are you saying there is no such thing as a faithful friend?  True, at a certain level a man is not even a faithful friend to himself.  But I wonder if you think the only ones capable of being faithful and true (in the light, in the dark) are those with no faith in God.

What are you talking about? All I said is that you felt positive peer pressure (peer pressure you liked) among your Christian friends so you joined them. The societies you say you didn't join you either knew no one there or you got negative peer pressure that made you feel uncomfortable. No faith needed - all human impulses.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote:Proper Gander

Fonzie wrote:

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
 

ProperGander,

You have to admit that simply NOT believing something is true doesn't make it untrue either.

What if it is true that you HAVE to exist somewhere for eternity?

What if an invisible truck is about to hit you? Will you throw yourself in the mud to get out of its way?

 

Death is no invisible truck.

That's not what I was saying. I have evidence of death, because people die all the time. I do not have to take that on faith to believe it exist.

What I am saying is that your god and life after death is the invisible truck, because there is no evidence that they exist. I would have to take that on faith to believe in them - just like the invisible truck.

 

Ok, I see what you mean now.

Yeah, you're right I can't produce the faith thing in anybody.  Plus, I think you understand enough of the Bible already to know what you're rejecting and I'm accepting. 

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

It basically comes down to evidence. If you can't provide any, then I have no reason to fear your eternal existance scenario any more than I have to fear the invisible truck.

 

I offer Christ as evidence.  He is perfect - there is no flaw in Him.  He is worthy of all our worship.  His Words are True.  He said, "whoever believes in Me will not die".  The way He lived and died inspires faith in Him.  I think Jesus is His own proof.

You have not proved that this Christ ever existed. You have not proved that if he did, he was perfect.

 

 

I can't prove that to you. 

Proper Gander wrote:

 

You have not given an adequate reason why I, even if he existed and was perfect, should worship him.

I've tried to encourage you to, though.

Proper Gander wrote:

You have not shown that the words he alegedly said are true.

 

 

I've left that for you to decide.

 

Proper Gander wrote:

I can go on but it really boils down to this: some people have made up a story about a perfect character called Jesus (don't you hate when authors do that? those characters are always dull and uninteresting) and you believe it is true because it said it is true. It's circular reasoning, and you have no more reason to believe that than you have to believe me if I say that I wrote the bible. (If I wrote the bible, and the bible says it was written by god, and god can't lie, then I must be god and I must be telling the truth.)

 

No, you've crossed the line here into my decision on these things - and I have decided I have EVERY reason to believe Jesus and ALL the Bible - just like you have the right to reject it.  I believe you when you say that you are totally not interested in the Gospel or Jesus or the Bible.  You have that right and I shouldn't be bothering you about it.  

Proper Gander wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
I can understand why the good news of eternal life in Christ seems like a scam - actually far greater than the emails that promise a multimillion inheritance from a stranger.  It does seem too god to be true, however I have no doubt the gospel of Christ is true and offer my lack of doubt.

I don't think you understand me correctly. An eternal life as portrayed by christianity is completely undesirable to me. It isn't that it sounds "too good to be true", it's that it's completely unfounded, goes against evidence and is pretty counter-intuitive anyway. Plus, it's an awful deal, and I wouldn't want it even if it was true. Thanks, but no thanks. I have no doubt the gospel of christ is false and offer my scepticism.

 

 

You are free to reject eternal life in Christ obviously.

"Free", as in "you can choose not to follow my command exactly and unquestioningly, but then I will torture you forever and ever in all eternity", yeah. 

 

I don't have any interest in anything but good for you and everybody on this forum.

Proper Gander wrote:

And you still haven't shown that something has actually been offered. (Yes, I know that it's offered in the bible; what I'm saying is that you haven't shown that it can actually deliver it.)

True.  Faith is a confidence in things not seen. 

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
RATHER - A GREAT GOD AND THE BEST MASTER!

Ugh, no. Pretending for a second that he exist, he'd be a pretty incompetent god judging from the world situation, and I would never accept him as my master anyway. I'm a free man of a free country.

 

Another view is that you will is so enslaved and your understanding so darkened that you actually think you are free when you are not.

If I am not free, please do show me how that is so. Quite frankly I believe that applies much better to you and your theistic beliefs than it does to me.

 

I can't show you that Scripture says all men have sinned and become enslaved by it and can only be freed through the grace that is in Jesus Christ.  I beleve Scripture - you don't.  From my perspective only God could reveal to you what you are asking here.

If you believe in Jesus and all the Bible, why are you limiting yourself t oPaul's writings? Could it be that the one claimed to be God's son didn't say the things you needed?

Also, you say you have every reason to believe in Jesus and the Bible but you can't name ONE?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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darth_josh wrote:Fonzie

darth_josh wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

Did you have to guard your heart before creating this thread? If so, then how could we operate under the honesty approach? 

 

My "guarding my heart" is something I do all the time 24/7.  What I was trying to say with respect to this thread is that I sort out things in great detail with focus on honesty - not as a matter of holding back anything.  As I said I am conscious of the fact that I can be fooled on things even trying to be honest.

 

Fonzie wrote:

darth_josh wrote:
 

Personally, an honest truthful examination does not try to make things fit into our ideology.

 

I'm not trying to make anything fit anyone's ideology.

 

My point was that by 'guarding your heart', we're not going to be able to discuss anything honestly.

I'm trying to guard against dishonest answers coming from my heart.

darth_josh wrote:

 

 

I can give you hundreds, nay thousands of anecdotal examples of your faith in action against humanity. It won't matter, your 'heart is guarded'.

I'm guarding against any attitudes that would produce bad against humanity.

darth_josh wrote:

 

I can show you where scripture has internal contradictions. It won't matter, your 'heart is guarded'.

My heart is totally open to Scripture.  I study it all the time - early morning, late at night.  I see mysteries but no contradictions. 

darth_josh wrote:

 

I can explain the logical inconsistencies in your posts. It won't matter, your 'heart is guarded'.

 

My faith isn't in my own intellectual ability to reason - it is in the living Christ.

 

darth_josh wrote:

Do you see what I mean when I say I feel like we can't have an honest discussion?

I think I do.

 

darth_josh wrote:

I will continue, but I suffer no delusion that any of my posts will get past your 'guard'.

I suffer no delusion either.

darth_josh wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

For instance, your response to my question concerning 'everything including the 'bad' simply relies upon the pat answer of:

Fonzie wrote:

The Lord has made everything for its purpose, including evil - and evil forces.

Which is (and I think you see this) a non-arguable answer for you. This is just the parroting of dogma. I want to know why. Why is there 'bad'? Is it to make you feel better? How does it justify your belief? 

 

As you know I totally believe the Bible perspective on this.  The "bad" started when the first man Adam disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden.  Then man was separated from his God.  Then man started forgetting his God and things went from bad to worse.

... which your god already knew would happen. Right?

 

Right.

 

darth_josh wrote:

Quote:
I don't believe the idea that man is basically good because that's not what the Scriptures teach (maybe you can show me differently).  I believe man is basically fallen - all of mankind.  Thus it was possible for God's own people (Israel) to even put to death their God made flesh.

A 'good' being created something 'bad'?

The problem is that the only 'good' men in scripture believed in that god. You have no examples of good people devoid of belief in that god in the scriptures. You have nothing to compare the relative terms of 'godly' and 'goodly'. To simply dismiss 'all of mankind' as a failure seems rather cursory don't you think?

Just as you have apparently not met a 'good' atheist, I've never met my 'ideal' christian. 

Men that were formerly bad believed in Jesus and God and changed.

I have met atheists I like.  And I have worked for some and share some interests with them.  On the matter of knowing God the ox and ass has outdone the atheist though.  They know their master.

 

darth_josh wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
But Jesus came to restore man to his God - to remove the enmity between man and God (sin).  Jesus had no reason to suffer for anything because He was perfect.  He became sin however to take on our sin.  His death became the death of death.  In Him our sins are thus paid for - in Him they are nailed to the tree.

... which in your next paragraph you state that he already knew this was going to happen before the decision to eat the proverbial apple occurred.

Allegedly, he knew that he was planned to suffer.

Allegedly, he knew that after suffering he gets to take the '#2 in the Universe' position.

Jesus would have washed your feet and let you spit on Him and asked for His Father to forgive you.  In fact, He washed the disciples' feet right after "all power and authority in heaven and on earth had been given to Him".  This though doesn't concern you.  It's only about eternity.

darth_josh wrote:

 

 

 

Fonzie wrote:
Why is there "bad" or "evil"?  Well, I have to speculate on that.  Since the Scriptures say that God and Jesus had the gospel planned before the world was created I would say that evil could have a good result in that man couldn't solve it himself and the solving of the problem is the glory of God.

The screenplay was written before the movie was made basically. Right?

As an atheist, I see myself as an uncooperative actor in this miserable story of lies and half-truths where the 'hero' dies in the first five minutes and it doesn't mean anything to the rest of the movie.

I see myself not going to your movie.

 

darth_josh wrote:

 

 

Fonzie wrote:
Through man's experience of evil man can find out that he can't overcome evil by himself - he needs God.  Through the pain and results of evil man could reach out to God undeservedly and God could respond out of His GHreat Love and to His Glory.  So my guess is that the greatest result of evil is the Glory of God rescuing man from it.

Since you get to use 'god' as your metaphor, I'd like to use firefighters in simile.

This idea of god coming to the rescue after creating the problem is like a firefighter being first on the scene to his/her own arson.

Follow me here. He wrote the book where a man eats from a forbidden tree and he sacrifices his son to himself. He made the tree. He made the man. He knew the man would eat from the tree prompting him to sacrifice his son for the man because he ate from the tree he made.

That is not only irrational, but unethical.

It would be the equivalent of planning to put a loaded Glock between two young kids watching Reservoir Dogs and then when they kill someone, you crucify your son to make up for putting the gun there.

 

God is showing the hosts of heaven sitting in the amphitheatre He knows what He's doing when it comes to winnowing and changing the hearts of man. 

 

 

darth_josh wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
How does evil justify my belief?  Well, I found evil unfulfilling, enslaving and a brutal master - I was unfulfilled by it and unhappy in it yet I couldn't escape on my own.

Why not? I quit smoking pcp-laced joints a long time ago. I quit drinking a long time ago. All on my own.

Obviously you didn't want to stop the bad behavior, you wanted to replace it.

Is it that you couldn't tell yourself, "No!" but if you had something else commanding it then you could do it?

Maybe you haven't escaped pride yet. 

 

darth_josh wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
The gospel message of redemption seemed too god to be true -

You know what they say about things that are too good to be true don't you?

If it sounds too good to be true then it probably isn't true.

"THEY" -----  is not something I have faith in.

 

 

darth_josh wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
one of the hardest things was thinking it could apply to me.  When I repented I came out in Christ hating and resisting evil and that has never changed.  The Holy Spirit has coached me and showed me I don't need to be defeated by it and in Him I'm not.  I'm always on guard like I said.  Watch a deer or a bird trying to eat something and you'll see what I mean.  I've learned to watch and guard my heart.  I don't do it perfectly but i'm on guard and the Holy Spirit gives me fire and steam to do this.  It works for me.

However, if I lay out poison for the deer or bird to eat... I can't crucify a squirrel to make it better.

It is my contention that YOU are working for you. If you are being 'good' then you are affixing the qualities of what 'good' is.

I know you have pride, but why not self-esteem?

Saying 'it works for me' carries the connotation that it doesn't work for everyone. Yet here I am. It doesn't work for me and I don't want it.

I had already read members of this forum saying they had "tried faith in Jesus" (or some form of that) - then they quit (or some form of that).  I simply truthfully say it does work for me.  I guess "pride" is possible but it could be a mischaracterization. 

I do have both pride and esteem but they are both in Jesus as I see it.

darth_josh wrote:

 

 

 

Fonzie wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

 Do bad things happen to others in order for you to thank your god that it isn't you?

This may be your impression but it is certainly not the case.  I want good things for everybody.

So do I. However, I'm not going to tell them hell awaits if they don't see the same 'good' as I do.

I know

 

darth_josh wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:
 

Your fond of metaphor...

Isn't this like the economic stimulus check that makes you feel happy to get extra special treatment even though there is no way that it will change the whole economy? 

No but this appears to be what you view it as - a panacea.  This is instead like the smallest seed that can grow to the mightiest cedar in the most unlikely place.

Soooo, it ONLY works for you might be a better statement?

No, that isn't my desire but I know I can't impose it on anybody.  It does work for me and it might be a better statement that it WOULD work for anybody if they believed in Jesus.

darth_josh wrote:

 

I'm more concerned with the 'likely' places that this is supposed to be 'working' for people.

It seems convenient to have something allegedly so good fail for some of the people who espouse it.

Likewise, as I mentioned earlier, some people are so much better off without it.

I would answer this if I understood what you mean.

 

darth_josh wrote:

 

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:

Akin to your god on high saying: "Well, there is evil. I made it. But look at these kittens. And you're special."

 This sounds like a second grade "new school" teacher, ha.  My experience with God has been "old school".  He disciplines every son He receives - look what He let go down with His Own Son.  He definitely means what He says and He doesn't say it like you describe.

I'm saying it's the ultimate red herring.

By diverting your attention with promises of joy and treasures while allegedly causing harm to others or showing indifference to some, your 'He' doesn't seem too interested in telling you the truth about the world.

The things I am learning from the Scriptures about the world are the real deal.  Everything clicks with Scripture that I see in the world.

darth_josh wrote:

 

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:

What if... What if your idea of why something happens weren't contingent upon action by a supreme being?

I would be of all men most to be pitied (that's a quote from the Scriptures but I agree with it).  If we both keep on as we are - one of us is going to be disappointed, right?  I'm hoping neither of us is.

That's my point. You're living with the fear of hell and promise of heaven while I am merely living.

For me, it's a great deal either way.

I'll explain that feeling after this next set of quotes.

 

No, you are totally wrong about what I am living with - I have no fear of hell or death (though you don't get much practice you know).  I have been totally rescued from the prison of fear of death.  I don't know how you can follow your own principles and impose things on me which you certainly wouldn't accept if it was turned around. 

darth_josh wrote:

 

 

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:
 

I feel equally as joyful as you profess to be when I figure out a complex situation on my own devoid of faith in jesus that it all works out in the end. Every time.

 

You're different than me in that.  The last complex situation will be death.  If you end up on the other side of death having acdcepted a lie when the truth was available that would be the ultimate swindle - a worm of regret that would never die.

Here's the problem. If I'm altering my behavior when alive in order to get the 'good' side after death then my actions are clearly self-motivated. In other words, choosing to live in a 'christ-like' way isn't because it is good, rather it is gambling on being right and not going to hell.

 

No again.  I am not earning my salvation by good works.  That is only paid by the blood of Christ.  If I was trying to earn as you say my salvation it would be tainted at the source - with selfish interest.

As far as gambling on the "by and by" eternity has started now along with the joys of it because I am in fellowship with Christ.  More joy there than I can get across to you.  I can only try to ramp with metaphors on that because you can't know the joy of fellowship with Christ without being reborn in heart.  There is a step of faith there. 

darth_josh wrote:

 

What if allah is god and mohammed is his prophet? You would be wrong. Meanwhile, I have merely chosen NOT to choose. I remained skeptical.

You have that right - who would I be to not support your right to choose what you believe or don't.

darth_josh wrote:

 

Allah slaps you for being an infidel and pities me for being ignorant, but still being good. Meanwhile, your only reason to be good was to avoid punishment.

My motivation is the love of Christ and walking in fellowship with the living Christ.

 

darth_josh wrote:

 

I'm cool with this. At almalhamah, I am 'walked past' instead of 'walked upon'.

The converse to either situation is oblivion. I live my life, I die, and am no more.

Given that there are many gods claiming to be the one true god, you have less than a 1% chance of being right, while I have chosen NOT to be wrong.

Pascal's wager benefits the uncommitted atheist.

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:
 

Certainly, there is a statistical probability that problems work themselves out without my action. However, if the answer was faith then wouldn't I fail in those other times where it was ALL ME doing the fixing? 

 None of us are going to get a backstage pass to these things while on earth.  The way faith in Jesus works in all this (which you are resisting) is that - what Jesus says ends all these questions and conflicting speculations.  Faith breaks through all this because if Jesus says it - it is true.  I don't have to worry about Darth Josh's statistics or Pat Condell's sword thrusts. 

There's that 'faith' word again. Earlier, we discussed honesty.

Yet 'faith' requires someone to be dishonest with themselves by not allowing contingencies contradictory to that faith. You have said so right here. If jesus says it - it is true. Faith means you cannot allow for it to be false.

Don't you have confidence in anybody that what they say is true?  Multiply that several times and you have the confidence I have in Christ.

darth_josh wrote:

 

In every other aspect of our lives, we face the cold hard truth of reality that things are not bound by what we believe them to be.

 

Marutity teaches a man to know that he cant totally trust his own perspective.  I have seen I can totally trust God and the Scriptures and Jesus though.  When I am misunderstanding something concerning them - which has happened - you can't discount the real presence of God and Jesus the Good Shepherd.  He rescues and puts His sheep back on track.

darth_josh wrote:

 

 

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:
I think 'faith in jesus' gives you that 'way out' for blame and/or consequence. What do you think?

It could be misused that way true.  The Word of God however instructs me to accept trials as discipline, embrace and ask God for strength to bear it and use it as a spiritual workout - accepting my lot. 

As far as blame, I try to accept whatever blame that is mine though I'm sure I miss some and make it easier for others to forgive me when I'm at blame.  Forgiveness is a basic principle of grace.  Jesus said I have to totally forgive everybody when I come to pray (and I'm to pray constantly) so I can be heard and forgiven.

Doesn't 'He' already know that you're going to pray and what you're going to pray for?

 

Yes, but He isn't irritated about that.

 

darth_josh wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
I even get to forgive myself of my blame. 

Yet nothing for the wronged comes from it?

Tell me. Do you believe that a sin against man or mankind is also a sin against god?

Do you believe a sin against god is also a sin against mankind?

 

Yes

darth_josh wrote:


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darth_josh wrote: Fonzie

 

Quote:

darth_josh wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
I even get to forgive myself of my blame. 

Yet nothing for the wronged comes from it?

Tell me. Do you believe that a sin against man or mankind is also a sin against god?

Do you believe a sin against god is also a sin against mankind?

 

 

darth_josh wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
I even get to forgive myself of my blame. 

Yet nothing for the wronged comes from it?

Tell me. Do you believe that a sin against man or mankind is also a sin against god?

Do you believe a sin against god is also a sin against mankind?

 

Yes

Do you believe a sin against mankind is a sin against God? If you follow the Bible, you can't and shouldn't. After all, God committed multiple crimes against mankind.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote:Ok, I see what

Fonzie wrote:
Ok, I see what you mean now.

Yeah, you're right I can't produce the faith thing in anybody.  Plus, I think you understand enough of the Bible already to know what you're rejecting and I'm accepting.

Well, yes, but this doesn't really answer the question. What I'm asking you is why you take the bible on faith - or why you take anything on faith, for that matter, since faith by its very nature is equally justified in anything. You obviously don't hold faith than an invisible and undetectable train is heading straight in your way to kill you in a few seconds, so why do you take god's existance on faith?

It seems to me that as soon as you open the door for one faith-based belief, you no longer have any rational ground from which to reject any belief.

Fonzie wrote:
I can't prove that to you.

Then you cannot offer him as evidence either. If there is no evidence for Jesus' existance, you might as well try to use Harry Potter as evidence for Voldemort's existence.

Fonzie wrote:
I've tried to encourage you to, though. (...) I've left that for you to decide.

I bundled these together because my answer to both are pretty much the same anyway.

Yes you have, but unless you can give me some evidence for your claims, your efforts are doomed to fail. If I had any inclination to take faith in a god, I would make that god up for myself, play with the thought for a while and then realize that what I did was just make-believe and no matter how much I try, I won't be able to believe until I see that evidence.

As you should know by now, I would know this. I've been there before.

Fonzie wrote:
No, you've crossed the line here into my decision on these things - and I have decided I have EVERY reason to believe Jesus and ALL the Bible - just like you have the right to reject it.

I think you're confusing the word "reason" with "right to". The only thing that can give you reason to believe something is evidence, and since there is no evidence to believe the bible when it says that god exists and he wrote the bible, you have no reason to believe it. You have every right to do so, and I won't try to force you not to - though I try to discourage you from it.

I don't think that you're an idiot, either, and I have never doubted that the way you see it, you have a good reason to believe. If you didn't, I'd expect you to not believe. But since the only reason I have seen is based on faith, I simply disagree with you on that. That's all.

Fonzie wrote:
I don't have any interest in anything but good for you and everybody on this forum.

I know, but from what I know about the biblical god, that's not something he would say without being cought a liar. It was your god and the threat of hell I spoke of when I said that the choice is "his way or eternal torture".

Unlike him, you seem like a nice guy.

Fonzie wrote:
True.  Faith is a confidence in things not seen.

I'm not 100% comfortable with that definition, seeing as I don't have to have faith to be confident that wind exist. If it said "faith is confidence in things not detected", I would be more ready to agree. (Yes, I know that's a quote from the bible.)

See my invisible truck example again.

Fonzie wrote:
I can't show you that Scripture says all men have sinned and become enslaved by it and can only be freed through the grace that is in Jesus Christ.  I beleve Scripture - you don't.  From my perspective only God could reveal to you what you are asking here.

So why don't you ask him to? Lets make a bet: pray to god and ask him to show himself to me within a week from when you accept it (which should be plenty of time).

If you "win" and he reveals himself to me, I will start to believe, and I will announce my newfound belief here and live exactly as he wants me to.

If he, however, does not show up during this time-frame (which should be ample of time, omnipotent and omnipresent as he's supposed to be), I "win", and upon seeing this, you will read the whole bible from cover to cover. Relying completely upon your own thinking and forgetting for a moment what your pastor/the bible says, you ask yourself why you believe in this god, and follow that little rabbit wherever it may lead you.

If your answer is that this would somehow interfere with my free will, consider that your god in Exodus (I don't know where exactly) "hardened the Pharaoh's heart" so that he would not let the Jews go free, which is nothing but a breach of the Pharaoh's free will. Also consider that I'm using my free will to ask for this, because it is what I would want. Showing himself to me would thus not be breaking it.

So, do we have a deal?

"Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much fraternizing with the enemy."


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daedalus wrote:Fonzie

daedalus wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.

 

So... you're a hedonist?  Isn't it esentially the same thing as hedonism?  You do it because you like it - whether it is true, beneficial, etc.

 

 

My "gospel" (good news) is this:  We don't know why or how, but we exist. and that's really cool!  Woohooo!

 

 

You have successfully attacked your false impressions.

 


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butterbattle wrote:Fonzie

butterbattle wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Jesus said, "a man's life doesn't consist in an abundance of possessions."  That's becoming more self-evident in my experience and observation.

Second, the Scripture says, "better is a dinner of herbs where love is than a fatted ox and hatred with it."  That experience proves more and more true.  I've had both experiences.

Third, the Spirit of Christ through Solomon said, "Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes?  There is more hope for a fool than for him."  That is proving more and more true as well. 

There are hundreds of ways the Scriptures prove themselves like this every day. 

So, your contention is that the scriptures are true because you agree with its philosophical statements? I even agree with the three verses that you presented, but it doesn't verify the validity of the Bible.

 

Do you agree with the account of Jesus' healing the leper, raising the dead, making the blind see and the deaf hear - yet some witnesses did not believe in Him? 

butterbattle wrote:

 

Quote:
It was the Spirit of God coaching them, training them, disciplining them, dwelling with them.

How do you know?

Because all of salvation is God's work and to God's glory.

 

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
The emptiness of not knowing what I'm here for or why - where I came from or where I'm going, of no meaning to life - all things I craved.  The emptiness of thirst in a dry land.

I've seen this metaphor before.

So, Christianity fills this emptiness. It felt like you were missing something. When you devoted yourself to Christ, it felt like you found what you needed. Thus, this helps convince you of the validity of Christianity. Correct?

 

No it's not a feeling.  It's a spiritually discerned thing.  But yes I did find what I was looking for.

 

butterbattle wrote:

 

Quote:
You don't know me so it's no proof to you

Of course, they're your personal experiences. Unless I could read your mind, I can never know the road you've traveled to become a Christian. 

Do you have any objective evidence?

 

Through faith I see the things the Scriptures say are definitely true - I couldn't be more convinced if I had been there when they happened. 

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
but to me there has been a total change in life direction ever since - night and day.  I like the direction this is going.
 

I like the direction my life is going too, but this has no bearing on the truth of my worldview.

Quote:
I was born again that same day, born of the water and the Spirit and things turned around and started going the other direction.
  

Quote:
I followed the example of several in the Scriptures.  Peter told Cornelius to be baptized in Acts 10.  Ananias told Paul to be baptized in Acts 9.  It represents giving ourselves to death buried in water by baptism into Christ's death and trusting in God to raise us in a resurrection like His.  It represents washing away our sins in Christ's blood, a substitute sacrifice Who had no sin of His Own but became sin for us.  He willingly let them crucify Him - He could have called for 10,000 angels (one would have been more than enough) but He willingly died, making the sacrifice out of perfect love for the Father and us.

Sigh...I suppose I should have asked a different question. But, thanks for the response.

I sigh too.  This is where we diverge. 

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
The heart knows its own sorrow and no stranger shares its joy - so it's a hard thing to describe to another.
 

Which is why, in order to adequately discuss opposing views, we have to present verifiable evidence instead of just playing with our opinions. 

You are trying to prove spiritual things by physical means. 

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
Through the eyes of faith we see Him without fail.
 

How? What is it like when you "see" Him?

 

You might relate it to discerning your conscience only three dimensional. 

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
As to security, it is insecure to be living in a body and not be able to resist wrong things.  Christ has strengthened that and brought spiritual security to me - in Him.  In Him I can resist the Devil and my own wrong fleshly desires.

As to understanding there is a whole lifetime of spiritual food in the Scriptures.  I feed on them every day - that statement by Jesus, "man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God", proves true every day.  I have to have the Manna from heaven and Water from the Rock - the Scriptures.  It's hard to read other books after tasting that. 

I've read these kinds of assertions a million times. Although I've been kind of rude in some of my earlier responses, I really want to have a productive discussion now, and this isn't going anywhere.

  I want to get somewhere too - but the problem is we have different "where (s)", different "get (s)", and different "want (s)". 
butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
Yes but there is value in trying to communicate right?

Definitely.

I'm trying. 

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
I have had a little extra time this holiday and I watched/listened to a few you-tube videos by Pat Condell.  Would you say that most of the atheists on this forum agree with his perspective?

There's no way to know for sure. Some of my favorite channels are "potholer54," "aronra," and "donexodus2."

  I guess you can't argue taste. 
butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
I'm just going to give you the first thing that comes to mind.  The Scripture says it is better to go to the house of mourning than the house of feasting.  I have experienced great messages at funerals and seen the emptiness of feasts. 

Jesus said, "He that saves his life will lose it.  He that loses his life for my sake will find it".  I have had the experience of consciously giving up something that I thought I wanted to do for something I thought God wanted me to do and found something far better than I ever imagined.  I have thought I was going to help someone for example and they ended up helping me far more. 

On the other hand I have consciously gone with what I thought I wanted to do and was let down - it wasn't what I thought it would be at all.

Again, I cannot accept your personal experiences as evidence.

  You ask for them I thought. 
butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
I was not a guy who could ever enjoy a sustained lifetime hobby like fishing, camping, collecting, sky diving, air ballooning - those things would all bore me within 2 weeks.

Oh, I really want to go sky-diving.

  I would be tempted by hang gliding over Yosemite but I'm not bored.

 


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Fonzie wrote:No it's not a

Fonzie wrote:

No it's not a feeling.  It's a spiritually discerned thing.  But yes I did find what I was looking for.

Apparently you were looking for self deception.


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Fonzie wrote: Do you agree

Fonzie wrote:
 

Do you agree with the account of Jesus' healing the leper, raising the dead, making the blind see and the deaf hear - yet some witnesses did not believe in Him?

I don't believe those events occurred, but if they did, I think most people would believe in Him. 

Fonzie wrote:
It was the Spirit of God coaching them, training them, disciplining them, dwelling with them.

butterbattle wrote:
How do you know?

Fonzie wrote:
Because all of salvation is God's work and to God's glory.

Again, how do you know?

Fonzie wrote:
No it's not a feeling.  It's a spiritually discerned thing.

How can you tell the difference?

butterbattle wrote:
Do you have any objective evidence?

Fonzie wrote:
Through faith I see the things the Scriptures say are definitely true - I couldn't be more convinced if I had been there when they happened.
 

So your answer is no. 

Quote:
I sigh too.  This is where we diverge.
 

Yes, even our most basic beliefs completely contradict each other. We live in the same world, but we are worlds apart.

Fonzie wrote:
You are trying to prove spiritual things by physical means.

Then how do I prove a spiritual thing?

Fonzie wrote:
You might relate it to discerning your conscience only three dimensional.

Interesting.

Fonzie wrote:
You ask for them I thought.

Oh, I guess I did. A full conversation on an Internet forum can take so long that it feels like we're defying time. 

Fonzie wrote:
I'm trying.
 

I can't speak for anyone else here, but my first several posts were rather rude, so I would like to apologize, especially since this is the kindness sub-forum. Most of the "Christians" that come here aren't very respectful, so I tend to develop a negative attitude.  

That said, what is your general opinion of science? The scientific method? Evolution? 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

No one is born a theist. Theism is a process of indoctrination.

 

Of course the term "indoctrination" characterizes what is taught as a lie. 

I view atheism as indoctrination - a denial of the obvious - and theism as acceptance of the reality of God's glory as displayed in His creation.

But He didn't just wind it up and leave - He sent His Son to redeem it and bring the ones to Himself that accept the gift of grace in His Son.

If people were born with a belief in God, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, reality stands against your view.

The bible explains that to a thinking person.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

[quote

And I can just as easily paraphrase John 3:16 to "For God so loved the world that he sacrificed Himself to Himself so He could change a rule He made".

You can get the feel for what God did if you read about Abraham's following the instructions to go sacrifice his son Isaac on the mountain.  God had an angel stop him but Abraham was going to do it - he was confident God could bring Isaac back to life, so, in effect he received him as if back from the dead through faith. God didn't stop Himself however.  In order for Jesus to save those of us who believe He couldn't save Himself.

 

 

1. Really? What part of theism is innate? Where does the Bible explain this? Or is this something I have to kiss Yahweh's tush for before I understand?

 

jcgadfly,

It would be possible for a child to have unknown biological parents then eventually find them.  Tjhe unknown relationship would be innate.  God is our Father, our Maker, though unknown to many. 

In Romans the first it says..."ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature, namely His eternal power and deity has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.  So they are without excuse..."

God loves even His enemies.  He is merciful therefore to be feared.

As far as understanding - the gospel is so simple a child can understand it.  Jesus came and lived a perfect Life, died and paid the price for our sins with His blood, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day and has an Indestructable Life.  The Power that raised Him from the dead is at work in those who believe in Him.  We give ourselves to die in the waters of believer's baptism and are raised to walk in a new life of freedom in the Lord with the anointing of the Gift of the Spirit. 

The biggest problem is probably that it is too easy to understand.  Man wants to get his hand in it, his glory.  The Glory is all God's however.  It's a big problem for man to humble himself to that fact and wholeheartedly let God have the throne rather than himself.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

 

 

2. So the Canaanite god Yahweh had to have his demigod son (created by the gospel writers) take a three day holiday before he could be a demigod again? Wow, what a sacrifice (not). If you insist on both Yahweh and Yahshua being god, you have the problem of dead God raising Jesus (also dead God) back to life. The best some can do is the trinity, which is polytheism for those who don't wan to admit to it.

 

Yes, I understand you don't believe the gospel and work at mocking Jesus and God.  I don't hold it against you - and I think you could totally change some day.  It's possible.

Who would have thought that Saul would have become a devoted follower of Christ and the Holy Spirit would write a large part of the New Testament through him.

Many are invited to the Marriage Feast.  Many have excuses as you seem to - and won't come.

1. The parental relationship is a natural one. Belief in God is not natural - it's learned. Glad you dig it but you didn't have it from birth.

2. The gospel story you relate - "Jesus" can be replaced with several other gods purported to exhibit the same behavior.

3. I see you don't believe in the Gospel either - that's why you preach Paul instead of Jesus.

4. You wrote about the Christian friends you had - how much of your turn to Christianity was a natural need to fit in with their society?

 

I don't know - but there were other societies at the time that I DIDN'T want to join. 

Did you have friends in those "other societies"? It's been my view that Christians can be really cool people when the lights are on and they know others are watching them. It's when they think they're alone when they reveal themselves.

 

JCGadfly,

Are you saying there is no such thing as a faithful friend?  True, at a certain level a man is not even a faithful friend to himself.  But I wonder if you think the only ones capable of being faithful and true (in the light, in the dark) are those with no faith in God.

What are you talking about? All I said is that you felt positive peer pressure (peer pressure you liked) among your Christian friends so you joined them. The societies you say you didn't join you either knew no one there or you got negative peer pressure that made you feel uncomfortable. No faith needed - all human impulses.

  This is what I'm referring to:  "It's been my view that Christians can be really cool people when the lights are on and they know others are watching them.  It's when they think they're alone when they reveal themselves" (quote: JCGadfly)

Are you saying here you don't think there is such a thing as a faithful friend????  - or, is it only your friends who claim to have no faith that are capable of being "faithful"?

JCGadfly wrote:
  The journey is often worth more than the destination. 

 

Really?  Do you have proof or (hmmm) faith?  How many times have you been to the destination? 

 


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
 

ProperGander,

You have to admit that simply NOT believing something is true doesn't make it untrue either.

What if it is true that you HAVE to exist somewhere for eternity?

What if an invisible truck is about to hit you? Will you throw yourself in the mud to get out of its way?

 

Death is no invisible truck.

That's not what I was saying. I have evidence of death, because people die all the time. I do not have to take that on faith to believe it exist.

What I am saying is that your god and life after death is the invisible truck, because there is no evidence that they exist. I would have to take that on faith to believe in them - just like the invisible truck.

 

Ok, I see what you mean now.

Yeah, you're right I can't produce the faith thing in anybody.  Plus, I think you understand enough of the Bible already to know what you're rejecting and I'm accepting. 

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

It basically comes down to evidence. If you can't provide any, then I have no reason to fear your eternal existance scenario any more than I have to fear the invisible truck.

 

I offer Christ as evidence.  He is perfect - there is no flaw in Him.  He is worthy of all our worship.  His Words are True.  He said, "whoever believes in Me will not die".  The way He lived and died inspires faith in Him.  I think Jesus is His own proof.

You have not proved that this Christ ever existed. You have not proved that if he did, he was perfect.

 

 

I can't prove that to you. 

Proper Gander wrote:

 

You have not given an adequate reason why I, even if he existed and was perfect, should worship him.

I've tried to encourage you to, though.

Proper Gander wrote:

You have not shown that the words he alegedly said are true.

 

 

I've left that for you to decide.

 

Proper Gander wrote:

I can go on but it really boils down to this: some people have made up a story about a perfect character called Jesus (don't you hate when authors do that? those characters are always dull and uninteresting) and you believe it is true because it said it is true. It's circular reasoning, and you have no more reason to believe that than you have to believe me if I say that I wrote the bible. (If I wrote the bible, and the bible says it was written by god, and god can't lie, then I must be god and I must be telling the truth.)

 

No, you've crossed the line here into my decision on these things - and I have decided I have EVERY reason to believe Jesus and ALL the Bible - just like you have the right to reject it.  I believe you when you say that you are totally not interested in the Gospel or Jesus or the Bible.  You have that right and I shouldn't be bothering you about it.  

Proper Gander wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
I can understand why the good news of eternal life in Christ seems like a scam - actually far greater than the emails that promise a multimillion inheritance from a stranger.  It does seem too god to be true, however I have no doubt the gospel of Christ is true and offer my lack of doubt.

I don't think you understand me correctly. An eternal life as portrayed by christianity is completely undesirable to me. It isn't that it sounds "too good to be true", it's that it's completely unfounded, goes against evidence and is pretty counter-intuitive anyway. Plus, it's an awful deal, and I wouldn't want it even if it was true. Thanks, but no thanks. I have no doubt the gospel of christ is false and offer my scepticism.

 

 

You are free to reject eternal life in Christ obviously.

"Free", as in "you can choose not to follow my command exactly and unquestioningly, but then I will torture you forever and ever in all eternity", yeah. 

 

I don't have any interest in anything but good for you and everybody on this forum.

Proper Gander wrote:

And you still haven't shown that something has actually been offered. (Yes, I know that it's offered in the bible; what I'm saying is that you haven't shown that it can actually deliver it.)

True.  Faith is a confidence in things not seen. 

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
RATHER - A GREAT GOD AND THE BEST MASTER!

Ugh, no. Pretending for a second that he exist, he'd be a pretty incompetent god judging from the world situation, and I would never accept him as my master anyway. I'm a free man of a free country.

 

Another view is that you will is so enslaved and your understanding so darkened that you actually think you are free when you are not.

If I am not free, please do show me how that is so. Quite frankly I believe that applies much better to you and your theistic beliefs than it does to me.

 

I can't show you that Scripture says all men have sinned and become enslaved by it and can only be freed through the grace that is in Jesus Christ.  I beleve Scripture - you don't.  From my perspective only God could reveal to you what you are asking here.

If you believe in Jesus and all the Bible, why are you limiting yourself t oPaul's writings? Could it be that the one claimed to be God's son didn't say the things you needed? 

 

 

The whole world was created through Christ and holds together in Christ - including Paul's writings in the Holy Scriptures (inspired by the Spirit of Christ, moved by the Holy Spirit according to Scripture - all of which I totally believe and you don't). 

JCGadfly wrote:

Also, you say you have every reason to believe in Jesus and the Bible but you can't name ONE? 

I can't get you to grasp even the most basic reason - Jesus, His Life of Love, His Atoning death and resurrection, His Indestructible Life now.  All the reasons are found in Him.

 


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jcgadfly

jcgadfly wrote:

 

Quote:

darth_josh wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
I even get to forgive myself of my blame. 

Yet nothing for the wronged comes from it?

Tell me. Do you believe that a sin against man or mankind is also a sin against god?

Do you believe a sin against god is also a sin against mankind?

 

 

darth_josh wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
I even get to forgive myself of my blame. 

Yet nothing for the wronged comes from it?

Tell me. Do you believe that a sin against man or mankind is also a sin against god?

Do you believe a sin against god is also a sin against mankind?

 

Yes

Do you believe a sin against mankind is a sin against God? If you follow the Bible, you can't and shouldn't. After all, God committed multiple crimes against mankind.

CALL GUINNESS!  MOST WRONG STATEMENT EVER!!!!


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Proper Gander wrote:Fonzie

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Ok, I see what you mean now.

Yeah, you're right I can't produce the faith thing in anybody.  Plus, I think you understand enough of the Bible already to know what you're rejecting and I'm accepting.

Well, yes, but this doesn't really answer the question. What I'm asking you is why you take the bible on faith - or why you take anything on faith, for that matter, since faith by its very nature is equally justified in anything. You obviously don't hold faith than an invisible and undetectable train is heading straight in your way to kill you in a few seconds, so why do you take god's existance on faith?

 

 

It's because there is no invisible train - but Almighty God ....IS!! 

Proper Gander wrote:

It seems to me that as soon as you open the door for one faith-based belief, you no longer have any rational ground from which to reject any belief.

It seems to me you are getting on faith and riding off in all directions.  I am focused on Jesus.  He's 3 dimensional, in Word, Life, Death, and now - Indestructible Life. 

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
I can't prove that to you.

Then you cannot offer him as evidence either. If there is no evidence for Jesus' existance, you might as well try to use Harry Potter as evidence for Voldemort's existence.

 

Here's the thing.  He's Alive in me.  The live I live I now live by faith in Him.  I'm telling you the truth.  You don't believe me but I don't take it personally.  You don't believe Him or in Him. 

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
I've tried to encourage you to, though. (...) I've left that for you to decide.

I bundled these together because my answer to both are pretty much the same anyway.

Yes you have, but unless you can give me some evidence for your claims, your efforts are doomed to fail. If I had any inclination to take faith in a god, I would make that god up for myself, play with the thought for a while and then realize that what I did was just make-believe and no matter how much I try, I won't be able to believe until I see that evidence.

As you should know by now, I would know this. I've been there before.

 

And what if the reality is that you're missing out?  What if you have been tricked by the trickster?  It seems more logical to me to apply your doubts to you. 

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
No, you've crossed the line here into my decision on these things - and I have decided I have EVERY reason to believe Jesus and ALL the Bible - just like you have the right to reject it.

I think you're confusing the word "reason" with "right to". The only thing that can give you reason to believe something is evidence, and since there is no evidence to believe the bible when it says that god exists and he wrote the bible, you have no reason to believe it. You have every right to do so, and I won't try to force you not to - though I try to discourage you from it.

I don't think that you're an idiot, either, and I have never doubted that the way you see it, you have a good reason to believe. If you didn't, I'd expect you to not believe. But since the only reason I have seen is based on faith, I simply disagree with you on that. That's all.

Fonzie wrote:
I don't have any interest in anything but good for you and everybody on this forum.

I know, but from what I know about the biblical god, that's not something he would say without being cought a liar. It was your god and the threat of hell I spoke of when I said that the choice is "his way or eternal torture".

Unlike him, you seem like a nice guy.  

We're going to have to get Guinness on retainer here.  That's farther off base than east is from west. 

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
True.  Faith is a confidence in things not seen.

I'm not 100% comfortable with that definition, seeing as I don't have to have faith to be confident that wind exist. If it said "faith is confidence in things not detected", I would be more ready to agree. (Yes, I know that's a quote from the bible.)

See my invisible truck example again.

 

 

I don't see it because if it's a truck it's not invisible.  God is Spirit - invisible.

Proper Gander wrote:
 

Fonzie wrote:
I can't show you that Scripture says all men have sinned and become enslaved by it and can only be freed through the grace that is in Jesus Christ.  I beleve Scripture - you don't.  From my perspective only God could reveal to you what you are asking here.

So why don't you ask him to? Lets make a bet: pray to god and ask him to show himself to me within a week from when you accept it (which should be plenty of time).

If you "win" and he reveals himself to me, I will start to believe, and I will announce my newfound belief here and live exactly as he wants me to.

If he, however, does not show up during this time-frame (which should be ample of time, omnipotent and omnipresent as he's supposed to be), I "win", and upon seeing this, you will read the whole bible from cover to cover. Relying completely upon your own thinking and forgetting for a moment what your pastor/the bible says, you ask yourself why you believe in this god, and follow that little rabbit wherever it may lead you.

If your answer is that this would somehow interfere with my free will, consider that your god in Exodus (I don't know where exactly) "hardened the Pharaoh's heart" so that he would not let the Jews go free, which is nothing but a breach of the Pharaoh's free will. Also consider that I'm using my free will to ask for this, because it is what I would want. Showing himself to me would thus not be breaking it.

So, do we have a deal?

 

We have a deal in that I will pray for you.  But understand there is One Way of salvation for all.  You have a part in it.  God won't force you to do your part. 

I will pray you will become conscious of your sins through the work of the Holy Spirit and that the Way of salvation will open up before you and you'll see that Jesus is truly your Friend and Savior. 

If you check out His Life while on earth you will see He didn't do "signs - on - demand".  Pilate ask for a "show" and "tell" miracle.  Mockers said "come down off the cross - then we'll believe". 

Proper Gander wrote:

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 

Quote:

darth_josh wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
I even get to forgive myself of my blame. 

Yet nothing for the wronged comes from it?

Tell me. Do you believe that a sin against man or mankind is also a sin against god?

Do you believe a sin against god is also a sin against mankind?

 

 

darth_josh wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
I even get to forgive myself of my blame. 

Yet nothing for the wronged comes from it?

Tell me. Do you believe that a sin against man or mankind is also a sin against god?

Do you believe a sin against god is also a sin against mankind?

 

Yes

Do you believe a sin against mankind is a sin against God? If you follow the Bible, you can't and shouldn't. After all, God committed multiple crimes against mankind.

CALL GUINNESS!  MOST WRONG STATEMENT EVER!!!!

Only if you've never read the Bible. Why don't you read your God's holy word? Or does your picture of God begin with Jesus and end with Paul's construct (actually that should be reversed as Paul came first)?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
 

ProperGander,

You have to admit that simply NOT believing something is true doesn't make it untrue either.

What if it is true that you HAVE to exist somewhere for eternity?

What if an invisible truck is about to hit you? Will you throw yourself in the mud to get out of its way?

 

Death is no invisible truck.

That's not what I was saying. I have evidence of death, because people die all the time. I do not have to take that on faith to believe it exist.

What I am saying is that your god and life after death is the invisible truck, because there is no evidence that they exist. I would have to take that on faith to believe in them - just like the invisible truck.

 

Ok, I see what you mean now.

Yeah, you're right I can't produce the faith thing in anybody.  Plus, I think you understand enough of the Bible already to know what you're rejecting and I'm accepting. 

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

It basically comes down to evidence. If you can't provide any, then I have no reason to fear your eternal existance scenario any more than I have to fear the invisible truck.

 

I offer Christ as evidence.  He is perfect - there is no flaw in Him.  He is worthy of all our worship.  His Words are True.  He said, "whoever believes in Me will not die".  The way He lived and died inspires faith in Him.  I think Jesus is His own proof.

You have not proved that this Christ ever existed. You have not proved that if he did, he was perfect.

 

 

I can't prove that to you. 

Proper Gander wrote:

 

You have not given an adequate reason why I, even if he existed and was perfect, should worship him.

I've tried to encourage you to, though.

Proper Gander wrote:

You have not shown that the words he alegedly said are true.

 

 

I've left that for you to decide.

 

Proper Gander wrote:

I can go on but it really boils down to this: some people have made up a story about a perfect character called Jesus (don't you hate when authors do that? those characters are always dull and uninteresting) and you believe it is true because it said it is true. It's circular reasoning, and you have no more reason to believe that than you have to believe me if I say that I wrote the bible. (If I wrote the bible, and the bible says it was written by god, and god can't lie, then I must be god and I must be telling the truth.)

 

No, you've crossed the line here into my decision on these things - and I have decided I have EVERY reason to believe Jesus and ALL the Bible - just like you have the right to reject it.  I believe you when you say that you are totally not interested in the Gospel or Jesus or the Bible.  You have that right and I shouldn't be bothering you about it.  

Proper Gander wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
I can understand why the good news of eternal life in Christ seems like a scam - actually far greater than the emails that promise a multimillion inheritance from a stranger.  It does seem too god to be true, however I have no doubt the gospel of Christ is true and offer my lack of doubt.

I don't think you understand me correctly. An eternal life as portrayed by christianity is completely undesirable to me. It isn't that it sounds "too good to be true", it's that it's completely unfounded, goes against evidence and is pretty counter-intuitive anyway. Plus, it's an awful deal, and I wouldn't want it even if it was true. Thanks, but no thanks. I have no doubt the gospel of christ is false and offer my scepticism.

 

 

You are free to reject eternal life in Christ obviously.

"Free", as in "you can choose not to follow my command exactly and unquestioningly, but then I will torture you forever and ever in all eternity", yeah. 

 

I don't have any interest in anything but good for you and everybody on this forum.

Proper Gander wrote:

And you still haven't shown that something has actually been offered. (Yes, I know that it's offered in the bible; what I'm saying is that you haven't shown that it can actually deliver it.)

True.  Faith is a confidence in things not seen. 

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
RATHER - A GREAT GOD AND THE BEST MASTER!

Ugh, no. Pretending for a second that he exist, he'd be a pretty incompetent god judging from the world situation, and I would never accept him as my master anyway. I'm a free man of a free country.

 

Another view is that you will is so enslaved and your understanding so darkened that you actually think you are free when you are not.

If I am not free, please do show me how that is so. Quite frankly I believe that applies much better to you and your theistic beliefs than it does to me.

 

I can't show you that Scripture says all men have sinned and become enslaved by it and can only be freed through the grace that is in Jesus Christ.  I beleve Scripture - you don't.  From my perspective only God could reveal to you what you are asking here.

If you believe in Jesus and all the Bible, why are you limiting yourself t oPaul's writings? Could it be that the one claimed to be God's son didn't say the things you needed? 

 

 

The whole world was created through Christ and holds together in Christ - including Paul's writings in the Holy Scriptures (inspired by the Spirit of Christ, moved by the Holy Spirit according to Scripture - all of which I totally believe and you don't). 

JCGadfly wrote:

Also, you say you have every reason to believe in Jesus and the Bible but you can't name ONE? 

I can't get you to grasp even the most basic reason - Jesus, His Life of Love, His Atoning death and resurrection, His Indestructible Life now.  All the reasons are found in Him.

 

That confirms what I suspected in my last post - your God begins and ends with Paul's creation and the backstory the gospel writers put together. What do you have against God the Father? Oh, yeah, he did all that nasty stuff that that lousy agnostic atheist Gadfly reminded me of. It means he's read his Bible and knows at least as much of it as I do (if not more).

Since you wanted to get into my friendships and my sig - here goes.

My friendships have nothing to do with religion or lack of it. I believe in building common ground in the temporal pursuits first and taking religion with those that desire it. I don't (as it seems you do) look at people and thimk "Oh, they might not believe in the exact same God as I do. I'd better ostracize them so I can be safe."

The Christians I've run into fall into these types:

The ostracizers (your type): They isolate themselves among other Christians except when they have to put on a "witnessing" show. Then God becomes a sugar daddy who wants to give good gifts to his children and never does anything bad. They pal around with you as long as you're listening. If you lose interest or even have questions, they kick you to the curb and go to the next one.

The ones to whom I'm a curiosity - They've never seen someone honestly confront their religion and I pique their interest. They still have enough of the ostracizer in them not to risk getting to close. To them, I'm more of a lab rat to be studied and manipulated into their way of thinking.

The folk who follow Paul's edict of I Cor. 9:22-23 "I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." They're partiers to hang out with the partiers, drinkers to hang out with the drinkers. They sleep around to hang with the sexually active, liars to hang with the liars. But they're still Christians because they're doing all of this to save people's souls (and they ask forgiveness nightly just in case).

As for my sig - I know the journey is worth more than the destination because I've taken many journeys (physical and spiritual) and learned more on the way than I did  when I achieved my desired goal. Unlike yourself who looks at Christ as a stopping point and thus, has ceased thinking and living. I believe the phrase "too heavenly minded to be of any earthly good" applies to you.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:Do you

jcgadfly wrote:
Do you believe a sin against mankind is a sin against God? If you follow the Bible, you can't and shouldn't.
 

I'm not sure about this, but I think Jesus said something about how sinning against our fellow men equals sinning against God.

*looks for Bible passage*

jcgadfly wrote:

After all, God committed multiple crimes against mankind.

Ah, yes, but when God tears little children to shreds using bears, is it a sin? Maybe He's doing it for a greater good. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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RatDog wrote:Fonzie wrote:No

RatDog wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

No it's not a feeling.  It's a spiritually discerned thing.  But yes I did find what I was looking for.

Apparently you were looking for self deception.

It is possible to deceive yourself - true.  I have had that experience a few times and don't want any more, so thanks for the reminder and I want to bring any resources to avoid it. 

As far as what I was looking for in life I don't think I'm much different than anybody in looking.  The difference is I'm confident I have found the ultimate in Christ.

And He has proved Himself more and more ultimate for several years.  Self deception wouldn't satisfy me too long - I get bored too easy.


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Fonzie wrote:RatDog

Fonzie wrote:

RatDog wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

No it's not a feeling.  It's a spiritually discerned thing.  But yes I did find what I was looking for.

Apparently you were looking for self deception.

It is possible to deceive yourself - true.  I have had that experience a few times and don't want any more, so thanks for the reminder and I want to bring any resources to avoid it. 

As far as what I was looking for in life I don't think I'm much different than anybody in looking.  The difference is I'm confident I have found the ultimate in Christ.

And He has proved Himself more and more ultimate for several years.  Self deception wouldn't satisfy me too long - I get bored too easy.

That depends - how long have you been a Christian?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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butterbattle wrote:Fonzie

butterbattle wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
 

Do you agree with the account of Jesus' healing the leper, raising the dead, making the blind see and the deaf hear - yet some witnesses did not believe in Him?

I don't believe those events occurred, but if they did, I think most people would believe in Him.

You say "most" here.  I know you don't believe the miracles happened but you do admit the possibility some would be "seeing but not believing" (that aspect is harder for me to believe than the miracles - but I do). 

It is a puzzling thing but it's true that first hand evidence (which is asked for again and again on this forum) would not necessarily produce faith. 

Faith is a seed planted by God in a heart plowed with repentance.  God does the plowing too.  Then He cares for the plant constantly, watering and nourishing it.  It's a perpetual miracle to experience first hand. 

butterbattle wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
It was the Spirit of God coaching them, training them, disciplining them, dwelling with them.

butterbattle wrote:
How do you know?

Fonzie wrote:
Because all of salvation is God's work and to God's glory.

Again, how do you know?

 

The context of salvation by faith is Abraham.  He was chosen to show us the type of faith that is "counted as righteousness" and acceptable to God.

Abraham trusted God's promises even though everything on the surface looked the opposite.

In other words, Abraham's faith didn't require evidence, feelings, religious atmosphere, ceremonies - it was totally focused on God and directed all glory to God. 

This faith like Abraham's is something you can rest in, be comfortable withk put all your energy in - and it's all good, because your faith is totally in God not yourself or works.

This faith directs all the glory to God.

Thus you don't see Abraham standing praying, "Lord, I thank you I am not like other men..." - like the Pharisees - which is the type of religion that I think most of your anger is directed at (rightly) just like Jesus rejected.

The faith of Abraham brings us to "Lord be merciful to me a sinner".  The faith is in the Lord's qualities.  The glory is His.

butterbattle wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
No it's not a feeling.  It's a spiritually discerned thing.

How can you tell the difference?

Faith in God requires a man to set himself aside in his heart as to who he is going to trust in and who he is going to congratulate - God, not himself.

So the two get separated out and discerned (some practice required). 

I know you don't like this but I don't want you to think I'm telling you my own ideas.  This is from Hebrews:  "For the Word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. "

So the Living Word of God enables this - along with the light of the Holy Spirit.

butterbattle wrote:

 

 

butterbattle wrote:
Do you have any objective evidence?

Fonzie wrote:
Through faith I see the things the Scriptures say are definitely true - I couldn't be more convinced if I had been there when they happened.
 

So your answer is no.

It is no to you at this point - I mean not what you think you are looking for. 

It compares to Jesus not being the type of Messiah Israelites thought they were looking for. 

But the good news about it is you could NEVER be sure putting your faith in works - you would always be bowling in the 10th frame even if you had a perfect game up to then you could always lose.  But none of us have a perfect game. 

In the faith that is like Abraham's however we can be totally secure and certain - because our faith is in God and His Promises, Who never lies.

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
I sigh too.  This is where we diverge.
 

Yes, even our most basic beliefs completely contradict each other. We live in the same world, but we are worlds apart.

  Yeah, it's kind of the lion talking with the lamb.
butterbattle wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
You are trying to prove spiritual things by physical means.

Then how do I prove a spiritual thing?

 

By investing spiritually.  For instance you have seen returns from investment in principles. 

This is like that - invest in honestly seeking God and what He wants.  Invest in waiting and persevering.

This is not a walk in the park.  The Holy Spirit blows on our flesh side and reveals it for what it is - it withers like grass.

Stripping goes before clothing.

butterbattle wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
You might relate it to discerning your conscience only three dimensional.

Interesting.

 

Prophecies pointing to Christ, christ's Words, His Life (demo of His Words), His Atoning death (unmistakable love for us), His Resurrection (God's acceptance of the Sacrifice) - but now (THE BEST) first hand experience, Christ living in us. 

butterbattle wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
You ask for them I thought.

Oh, I guess I did. A full conversation on an Internet forum can take so long that it feels like we're defying time. 

Fonzie wrote:
I'm trying.
 

I can't speak for anyone else here, but my first several posts were rather rude, so I would like to apologize, especially since this is the kindness sub-forum. Most of the "Christians" that come here aren't very respectful, so I tend to develop a negative attitude.

 

I don't remember that.  I hope you won't let rules interfere with what you are trying to say.

butterbattle wrote:

That said, what is your general opinion of science? The scientific method? Evolution?

Pretty ignorant - (I could demonstrate, ha).  I enjoy the gift of the artist, the singer, the mechanic, the scientist.

But none of these produce the fellowship with God in Christ that I have.

I would say the gift of salvation in Christ is a repeatable experiment.  It is evolving as well in the sense of the Holy Spirit continually lifting us up. 

butterbattle wrote:


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 

Quote:

darth_josh wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
I even get to forgive myself of my blame. 

Yet nothing for the wronged comes from it?

Tell me. Do you believe that a sin against man or mankind is also a sin against god?

Do you believe a sin against god is also a sin against mankind?

 

 

darth_josh wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
I even get to forgive myself of my blame. 

Yet nothing for the wronged comes from it?

Tell me. Do you believe that a sin against man or mankind is also a sin against god?

Do you believe a sin against god is also a sin against mankind?

 

Yes

Do you believe a sin against mankind is a sin against God? If you follow the Bible, you can't and shouldn't. After all, God committed multiple crimes against mankind.

CALL GUINNESS!  MOST WRONG STATEMENT EVER!!!!

Only if you've never read the Bible. Why don't you read your God's holy word? Or does your picture of God begin with Jesus and end with Paul's construct (actually that should be reversed as Paul came first)?

 

I have read it all constantly for over 45 years (you pressed me on this) and I see how you could misunderstand it that way - it lends itself to being misunderstood at a casual read (like Calculus).  But I believe God is Love and Just and Righteous in everything He does without exception.  Some day all the behind scenes mysteries will be cleared up for all but I've seen enough that the untold things don't bother me in the least.  God and Christ are perfect in everything they say and do. 

 


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
 

ProperGander,

You have to admit that simply NOT believing something is true doesn't make it untrue either.

What if it is true that you HAVE to exist somewhere for eternity?

What if an invisible truck is about to hit you? Will you throw yourself in the mud to get out of its way?

 

Death is no invisible truck.

That's not what I was saying. I have evidence of death, because people die all the time. I do not have to take that on faith to believe it exist.

What I am saying is that your god and life after death is the invisible truck, because there is no evidence that they exist. I would have to take that on faith to believe in them - just like the invisible truck.

 

Ok, I see what you mean now.

Yeah, you're right I can't produce the faith thing in anybody.  Plus, I think you understand enough of the Bible already to know what you're rejecting and I'm accepting. 

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

It basically comes down to evidence. If you can't provide any, then I have no reason to fear your eternal existance scenario any more than I have to fear the invisible truck.

 

I offer Christ as evidence.  He is perfect - there is no flaw in Him.  He is worthy of all our worship.  His Words are True.  He said, "whoever believes in Me will not die".  The way He lived and died inspires faith in Him.  I think Jesus is His own proof.

You have not proved that this Christ ever existed. You have not proved that if he did, he was perfect.

 

 

I can't prove that to you. 

Proper Gander wrote:

 

You have not given an adequate reason why I, even if he existed and was perfect, should worship him.

I've tried to encourage you to, though.

Proper Gander wrote:

You have not shown that the words he alegedly said are true.

 

 

I've left that for you to decide.

 

Proper Gander wrote:

I can go on but it really boils down to this: some people have made up a story about a perfect character called Jesus (don't you hate when authors do that? those characters are always dull and uninteresting) and you believe it is true because it said it is true. It's circular reasoning, and you have no more reason to believe that than you have to believe me if I say that I wrote the bible. (If I wrote the bible, and the bible says it was written by god, and god can't lie, then I must be god and I must be telling the truth.)

 

No, you've crossed the line here into my decision on these things - and I have decided I have EVERY reason to believe Jesus and ALL the Bible - just like you have the right to reject it.  I believe you when you say that you are totally not interested in the Gospel or Jesus or the Bible.  You have that right and I shouldn't be bothering you about it.  

Proper Gander wrote:

 

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
I can understand why the good news of eternal life in Christ seems like a scam - actually far greater than the emails that promise a multimillion inheritance from a stranger.  It does seem too god to be true, however I have no doubt the gospel of Christ is true and offer my lack of doubt.

I don't think you understand me correctly. An eternal life as portrayed by christianity is completely undesirable to me. It isn't that it sounds "too good to be true", it's that it's completely unfounded, goes against evidence and is pretty counter-intuitive anyway. Plus, it's an awful deal, and I wouldn't want it even if it was true. Thanks, but no thanks. I have no doubt the gospel of christ is false and offer my scepticism.

 

 

You are free to reject eternal life in Christ obviously.

"Free", as in "you can choose not to follow my command exactly and unquestioningly, but then I will torture you forever and ever in all eternity", yeah. 

 

I don't have any interest in anything but good for you and everybody on this forum.

Proper Gander wrote:

And you still haven't shown that something has actually been offered. (Yes, I know that it's offered in the bible; what I'm saying is that you haven't shown that it can actually deliver it.)

True.  Faith is a confidence in things not seen. 

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
RATHER - A GREAT GOD AND THE BEST MASTER!

Ugh, no. Pretending for a second that he exist, he'd be a pretty incompetent god judging from the world situation, and I would never accept him as my master anyway. I'm a free man of a free country.

 

Another view is that you will is so enslaved and your understanding so darkened that you actually think you are free when you are not.

If I am not free, please do show me how that is so. Quite frankly I believe that applies much better to you and your theistic beliefs than it does to me.

 

I can't show you that Scripture says all men have sinned and become enslaved by it and can only be freed through the grace that is in Jesus Christ.  I beleve Scripture - you don't.  From my perspective only God could reveal to you what you are asking here.

If you believe in Jesus and all the Bible, why are you limiting yourself t oPaul's writings? Could it be that the one claimed to be God's son didn't say the things you needed? 

 

 

The whole world was created through Christ and holds together in Christ - including Paul's writings in the Holy Scriptures (inspired by the Spirit of Christ, moved by the Holy Spirit according to Scripture - all of which I totally believe and you don't). 

JCGadfly wrote:

Also, you say you have every reason to believe in Jesus and the Bible but you can't name ONE? 

I can't get you to grasp even the most basic reason - Jesus, His Life of Love, His Atoning death and resurrection, His Indestructible Life now.  All the reasons are found in Him.

 

That confirms what I suspected in my last post - your God begins and ends with Paul's creation and the backstory the gospel writers put together. What do you have against God the Father? Oh, yeah, he did all that nasty stuff that that lousy agnostic atheist Gadfly reminded me of. It means he's read his Bible and knows at least as much of it as I do (if not more).

Since you wanted to get into my friendships and my sig - here goes.

My friendships have nothing to do with religion or lack of it. I believe in building common ground in the temporal pursuits first and taking religion with those that desire it. I don't (as it seems you do) look at people and thimk "Oh, they might not believe in the exact same God as I do. I'd better ostracize them so I can be safe."

The Christians I've run into fall into these types:

The ostracizers (your type): They isolate themselves among other Christians except when they have to put on a "witnessing" show. Then God becomes a sugar daddy who wants to give good gifts to his children and never does anything bad. They pal around with you as long as you're listening. If you lose interest or even have questions, they kick you to the curb and go to the next one.

The ones to whom I'm a curiosity - They've never seen someone honestly confront their religion and I pique their interest. They still have enough of the ostracizer in them not to risk getting to close. To them, I'm more of a lab rat to be studied and manipulated into their way of thinking.

The folk who follow Paul's edict of I Cor. 9:22-23 "I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." They're partiers to hang out with the partiers, drinkers to hang out with the drinkers. They sleep around to hang with the sexually active, liars to hang with the liars. But they're still Christians because they're doing all of this to save people's souls (and they ask forgiveness nightly just in case).

Well, Jesus said since He wasn't popular His followers wouldn't be above Him in that.  Your disdain doesn't creat doubts about Christ in me. 

I actually love the confrontation - though not as much as I used to, because I don't see it being of much value.  It's no challenge to make somebody mad I mean.

My point in asking you about your friends was focused on the idea of being "faithful and true" - in friendship.  I wondered if you think any man is capable of being "faithful" - then further - if only your friends (the ones who claim to have no faith) are capable of that in your view.

It seems faith is necessary to friendship, marriage and business to a degree.  Faith gets bad press on this forum it seems. 

But I see faith as a great thing.  I have friends that don't see things about God like I do but they are faithful friends.  I don't worry about their honesty.  I can work for them without trust concerns.  They give me a key to their house (Atheists even) so there's a form of faith.  And this is true though none of us are perfect.

You haven't irritated me on any of this.

jcgadfly wrote:

As for my sig - I know the journey is worth more than the destination because I've taken many journeys (physical and spiritual) and learned more on the way than I did  when I achieved my desired goal. Unlike yourself who looks at Christ as a stopping point and thus, has ceased thinking and living. I believe the phrase "too heavenly minded to be of any earthly good" applies to you.

I was needling you about evidence for your faith that the journey is worth more than the destination - or if you just had faith in that.  You haven't been to some destinations you surely will go.  Faith in Christ would give you peace and joy along the way to that destination.

I don't look at christ as a stopping point but the door to eternity. 

A person could get too "heavenly minded to be of any earthly good" as you say.  Thanks for mentioning it and I'll keep it in mind. 

 

 


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butterbattle wrote:jcgadfly

butterbattle wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Do you believe a sin against mankind is a sin against God? If you follow the Bible, you can't and shouldn't.
 

I'm not sure about this, but I think Jesus said something about how sinning against our fellow men equals sinning against God.

*looks for Bible passage*

  "He who does it to the least of these does it unto Me". 

jcgadfly wrote:

After all, God committed multiple crimes against mankind.

Ah, yes, but when God tears little children to shreds using bears, is it a sin? Maybe He's doing it for a greater good. 

Elisha was a fireball wasn't he.  It did seem harsh I admit - and I don't understand the harshness of it.  But I accept it. 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote: Ah, yes, but

Fonzie wrote:
Ah, yes, but when God tears little children to shreds using bears, is it a sin? Maybe He's doing it for a greater good.  Elisha was a fireball wasn't he.  It did seem harsh I admit - and I don't understand the harshness of it.  But I accept it. 

But why do you accept it?

When a small child is mauled by a bear, I accept it, because I don't believe there is a sentient entity behind that action (well other than the bear). It just happens, and so be it.

You however believe someone intended it to happen, and actually steared the bear to do so. Why do you accept it then?

You throw yourself at the mercy of your "master", while I just accept that nature is nature, and life is life. Neither you nor I like the sorrow and pain that other people, or we ourselves, go through, but you accept it, even though you know who's at fault.

I accept it because I know NOONE is at fault. Clearly you are doing the same. In your heart of hearts you know that that which you call God, is just nature: the universe, and you have the capasity to accept the sorrow of the world only because, in your heart of hearts you know God is not a sentient entity.

And yet for some reason you still claim he is. Why do you need him to be? If he is as you descripe your master, then you know too that that makes you his slave. A revolution will always be brewing in your heart, because you see nature as the living will of God. A Will that can choose to maul children, or not to.

That revolt can never be in me, because I know that nature has no power over me. How could it have? It doesn't want: it just is.

"Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods: they play with us for their sports" From Macbeth as far as I recall.

That quote will keep stabbing at your heart, until you admit what you allready know: that there are no gods.

You clearly have the capasity to accept that which is, and just live your life as best you can. Your words show me that. So you allready know the truth, you are just framing it wrong.

Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin


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Fonzie wrote:You say "most"

Fonzie wrote:

You say "most" here.  I know you don't believe the miracles happened but you do admit the possibility some would be "seeing but not believing" (that aspect is harder for me to believe than the miracles - but I do).

Oh, definitely. There are people that deny the Holocaust ever happened even though we have many eyewitness accounts from people that are still alive!, as well as videos, pictures, graves, official documents dated to the time period, the death camps themselves, etc.

Fonzie wrote:
It is a puzzling thing but it's true that first hand evidence (which is asked for again and again on this forum) would not necessarily produce faith.

I'm confused by what you mean by "faith" in this context.

I would have said that "it's a puzzling thing that first hand evidence would not necessarily produce 'acceptance'" or something of the sort. I oppose faith because I define it as trusting something which lacks supporting evidence or even contradicts the available evidence.

i.e., When I say that I haven't seen any good evidence for the existence of the Christian God, someone might respond, "You have to have faith."

Thus, when there is sufficient evidence for a proposition, I would, in turn, assess that there is no need for faith. 

i.e., I don't have faith that the Holocaust occurred. I know that it occurred due to the overwhelming amount of evidence supporting it.

So, how do you define faith?

Fonzie wrote:

The context of salvation by faith is Abraham.  He was chosen to show us the type of faith that is "counted as righteousness" and acceptable to God.

Abraham trusted God's promises even though everything on the surface looked the opposite.

In other words, Abraham's faith didn't require evidence, feelings, religious atmosphere, ceremonies - it was totally focused on God and directed all glory to God. 

This faith like Abraham's is something you can rest in, be comfortable withk put all your energy in - and it's all good, because your faith is totally in God not yourself or works.

This faith directs all the glory to God.

Thus you don't see Abraham standing praying, "Lord, I thank you I am not like other men..." - like the Pharisees - which is the type of religion that I think most of your anger is directed at (rightly) just like Jesus rejected.

The faith of Abraham brings us to "Lord be merciful to me a sinner".  The faith is in the Lord's qualities.  The glory is His.

I have a distinct urge to ask, 'how do you know' again, but I'm guessing that would just make this drag on forever. I suppose I'm looking for something that I can analyze, but none of your reasoning helps me because I don't believe any of it in the first place.

butterbattle wrote:

How can you tell the difference?

Fonzie wrote:
Faith in God requires a man to set himself aside in his heart as to who he is going to trust in and who he is going to congratulate - God, not himself.

So the two get separated out and discerned (some practice required).

I know you don't like this but I don't want you to think I'm telling you my own ideas.  This is from Hebrews:  "For the Word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. "

So the Living Word of God enables this - along with the light of the Holy Spirit.

So.......how?

Quote:
It is no to you at this point - I mean not what you think you are looking for. 

It compares to Jesus not being the type of Messiah Israelites thought they were looking for. 

But the good news about it is you could NEVER be sure putting your faith in works - you would always be bowling in the 10th frame even if you had a perfect game up to then you could always lose.  But none of us have a perfect game. 

In the faith that is like Abraham's however we can be totally secure and certain - because our faith is in God and His Promises, Who never lies.

I think I'm looking for evidence.

Quote:
By investing spiritually.  For instance you have seen returns from investment in principles. 

This is like that - invest in honestly seeking God and what He wants.  Invest in waiting and persevering.

This is not a walk in the park.  The Holy Spirit blows on our flesh side and reveals it for what it is - it withers like grass.

Stripping goes before clothing.

So...I prove that Jesus is my savior by becoming a Christian?

Quote:
Prophecies pointing to Christ, christ's Words, His Life (demo of His Words), His Atoning death (unmistakable love for us), His Resurrection (God's acceptance of the Sacrifice) - but now (THE BEST) first hand experience, Christ living in us.
 

*sigh*

How do you know Christ is living in you?

Quote:
I don't remember that.  I hope you won't let rules interfere with what you are trying to say.

Me? Never.

Quote:
Pretty ignorant - (I could demonstrate, ha).  I enjoy the gift of the artist, the singer, the mechanic, the scientist.

But none of these produce the fellowship with God in Christ that I have.

I would say the gift of salvation in Christ is a repeatable experiment.  It is evolving as well in the sense of the Holy Spirit continually lifting us up.

 

Hmmmm, thanks.

Quote:
it lends itself to being misunderstood at a casual read (like Calculus).

Calculus is a casual read?

Oh, wait, nevermind. I'm guilty of way too much of this kind of stuff to actually be surprised about it.

Quote:
Faith gets bad press on this forum it seems.

Haha, because we haven't even agreed on the semantics yet.

If I trust that my family will not betray me, I suppose we could say that I have faith in my family. However, it must be noted that we, on this forum, define this type of "faith" different from a faith in God, since this faith is based on evidence. I've spent many years with my family: laughed together, traveled together, went through hard times together, etc. On top of that, I know these people, have an emotional connection with them, and have logically deduced that they are good people whom will not suddenly decide to slaughter me in the middle of the night. On the other hand, if a stranger on the street snatches $100 from me and informs me that he will give me $1000 tomorrow, I won't have "faith" that it will actually happen. I would conclude that I've just been robbed. 

So, based on my previous definition, perhaps I shouldn't even say that I have faith in my family, since this is misleading. I simply hold that they will not betray me based on the evidence.

I guess the key word is evidence.

Quote:
"He who does it to the least of these does it unto Me".

Yes, that's the one.

I don't have my Bible with me, but I found this online, exactly what I was looking for, Matthew 25:40 "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Quote:
Ah, yes, but when God tears little children to shreds using bears, is it a sin? Maybe He's doing it for a greater good. 

 

Yuck! Such a negative way to end my post.

This is what I truly despise about religion. You seem like such a nice person, yet now you're sticking your tongue out at kids being mauled to death by bears. If I had used that smiley in your situation, I would've been joking, but you're completely serious; you sincerely believe that your perfect, omnibenevolent God probably killed them. The worst part is, you actually feel that something is wrong with this, so you attempt to rationalize it by saying that maybe He wanted to produce "greater good," as if He was powerless to produce the good that He wanted unless He inflicted a bloody death upon innocent children. However, in the end, there is no credible answer, so you simply conclude that God's ways are beyond your understanding. Somehow, you're content with not knowing. Maybe you should ask God?


 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Fonzie wrote:Ah, yes, but

Fonzie wrote:

Ah, yes, but when God tears little children to shreds using bears, is it a sin? Maybe He's doing it for a greater good. 

Elisha was a fireball wasn't he.  It did seem harsh I admit - and I don't understand the harshness of it.  But I accept it. 

This might as well be the end of the conversation. What can you say when faced with such an unwillingness to think?

After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.

The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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Nikolaj wrote:Fonzie wrote:

Nikolaj wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Ah, yes, but when God tears little children to shreds using bears, is it a sin? Maybe He's doing it for a greater good.  Elisha was a fireball wasn't he.  It did seem harsh I admit - and I don't understand the harshness of it.  But I accept it. 

But why do you accept it?

I accept things like this because they would be just what I want if I was as wise as God. 
Nikolaj wrote:

When a small child is mauled by a bear, I accept it, because I don't believe there is a sentient entity behind that action (well other than the bear). It just happens, and so be it.

You however believe someone intended it to happen, and actually steared the bear to do so. Why do you accept it then?

  Admitting how little I know about it in the cosmic sense.
Nikolaj wrote:

You throw yourself at the mercy of your "master", while I just accept that nature is nature, and life is life. Neither you nor I like the sorrow and pain that other people, or we ourselves, go through, but you accept it, even though you know who's at fault.

I accept it because I know NOONE is at fault. Clearly you are doing the same. In your heart of hearts you know that that which you call God, is just nature: the universe, and you have the capasity to accept the sorrow of the world only because, in your heart of hearts you know God is not a sentient entity.

And yet for some reason you still claim he is. Why do you need him to be? If he is as you descripe your master, then you know too that that makes you his slave. A revolution will always be brewing in your heart, because you see nature as the living will of God. A Will that can choose to maul children, or not to.

That revolt can never be in me, because I know that nature has no power over me. How could it have? It doesn't want: it just is.

congratulations
Nikolaj wrote:

"Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods: they play with us for their sports" From Macbeth as far as I recall.

That quote will keep stabbing at your heart, until you admit what you allready know: that there are no gods.

You clearly have the capasity to accept that which is, and just live your life as best you can. Your words show me that. So you allready know the truth, you are just framing it wrong.

  No - I love being the slave of this Great Kind Master


 


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butterbattle wrote:Fonzie

butterbattle wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

You say "most" here.  I know you don't believe the miracles happened but you do admit the possibility some would be "seeing but not believing" (that aspect is harder for me to believe than the miracles - but I do).

Oh, definitely. There are people that deny the Holocaust ever happened even though we have many eyewitness accounts from people that are still alive!, as well as videos, pictures, graves, official documents dated to the time period, the death camps themselves, etc.

Fonzie wrote:
It is a puzzling thing but it's true that first hand evidence (which is asked for again and again on this forum) would not necessarily produce faith.

I'm confused by what you mean by "faith" in this context.

I would have said that "it's a puzzling thing that first hand evidence would not necessarily produce 'acceptance'" or something of the sort. I oppose faith because I define it as trusting something which lacks supporting evidence or even contradicts the available evidence.

i.e., When I say that I haven't seen any good evidence for the existence of the Christian God, someone might respond, "You have to have faith."

Thus, when there is sufficient evidence for a proposition, I would, in turn, assess that there is no need for faith. 

i.e., I don't have faith that the Holocaust occurred. I know that it occurred due to the overwhelming amount of evidence supporting it.

So, how do you define faith?

Fonzie wrote:

The context of salvation by faith is Abraham.  He was chosen to show us the type of faith that is "counted as righteousness" and acceptable to God.

Abraham trusted God's promises even though everything on the surface looked the opposite.

In other words, Abraham's faith didn't require evidence, feelings, religious atmosphere, ceremonies - it was totally focused on God and directed all glory to God. 

This faith like Abraham's is something you can rest in, be comfortable withk put all your energy in - and it's all good, because your faith is totally in God not yourself or works.

This faith directs all the glory to God.

Thus you don't see Abraham standing praying, "Lord, I thank you I am not like other men..." - like the Pharisees - which is the type of religion that I think most of your anger is directed at (rightly) just like Jesus rejected.

The faith of Abraham brings us to "Lord be merciful to me a sinner".  The faith is in the Lord's qualities.  The glory is His.

I have a distinct urge to ask, 'how do you know' again, but I'm guessing that would just make this drag on forever. I suppose I'm looking for something that I can analyze, but none of your reasoning helps me because I don't believe any of it in the first place.

butterbattle wrote:

How can you tell the difference?

Fonzie wrote:
Faith in God requires a man to set himself aside in his heart as to who he is going to trust in and who he is going to congratulate - God, not himself.

So the two get separated out and discerned (some practice required).

I know you don't like this but I don't want you to think I'm telling you my own ideas.  This is from Hebrews:  "For the Word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. "

So the Living Word of God enables this - along with the light of the Holy Spirit.

So.......how?

Quote:
It is no to you at this point - I mean not what you think you are looking for. 

It compares to Jesus not being the type of Messiah Israelites thought they were looking for. 

But the good news about it is you could NEVER be sure putting your faith in works - you would always be bowling in the 10th frame even if you had a perfect game up to then you could always lose.  But none of us have a perfect game. 

In the faith that is like Abraham's however we can be totally secure and certain - because our faith is in God and His Promises, Who never lies.

I think I'm looking for evidence.

Quote:
By investing spiritually.  For instance you have seen returns from investment in principles. 

This is like that - invest in honestly seeking God and what He wants.  Invest in waiting and persevering.

This is not a walk in the park.  The Holy Spirit blows on our flesh side and reveals it for what it is - it withers like grass.

Stripping goes before clothing.

So...I prove that Jesus is my savior by becoming a Christian?

Quote:
Prophecies pointing to Christ, christ's Words, His Life (demo of His Words), His Atoning death (unmistakable love for us), His Resurrection (God's acceptance of the Sacrifice) - but now (THE BEST) first hand experience, Christ living in us.
 

*sigh*

How do you know Christ is living in you?

Quote:
I don't remember that.  I hope you won't let rules interfere with what you are trying to say.

Me? Never.

Quote:
Pretty ignorant - (I could demonstrate, ha).  I enjoy the gift of the artist, the singer, the mechanic, the scientist.

But none of these produce the fellowship with God in Christ that I have.

I would say the gift of salvation in Christ is a repeatable experiment.  It is evolving as well in the sense of the Holy Spirit continually lifting us up.

 

Hmmmm, thanks.

Quote:
it lends itself to being misunderstood at a casual read (like Calculus).

Calculus is a casual read?

  Calculus wasn't casual for me - nor have I found any application of it. 
butterbattle wrote:

Oh, wait, nevermind. I'm guilty of way too much of this kind of stuff to actually be surprised about it.

Quote:
Faith gets bad press on this forum it seems.

Haha, because we haven't even agreed on the semantics yet.

I think we agree - you just have a different faith.
butterbattle wrote:

If I trust that my family will not betray me, I suppose we could say that I have faith in my family. However, it must be noted that we, on this forum, define this type of "faith" different from a faith in God, since this faith is based on evidence. I've spent many years with my family: laughed together, traveled together, went through hard times together, etc. On top of that, I know these people, have an emotional connection with them, and have logically deduced that they are good people whom will not suddenly decide to slaughter me in the middle of the night. On the other hand, if a stranger on the street snatches $100 from me and informs me that he will give me $1000 tomorrow, I won't have "faith" that it will actually happen. I would conclude that I've just been robbed. 

So, based on my previous definition, perhaps I shouldn't even say that I have faith in my family, since this is misleading. I simply hold that they will not betray me based on the evidence.

I guess the key word is evidence.

Quote:
"He who does it to the least of these does it unto Me".

Yes, that's the one.

I don't have my Bible with me, but I found this online, exactly what I was looking for, Matthew 25:40 "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Quote:
Ah, yes, but when God tears little children to shreds using bears, is it a sin? Maybe He's doing it for a greater good. 

 

Yuck! Such a negative way to end my post.

This is what I truly despise about religion. You seem like such a nice person, yet now you're sticking your tongue out at kids being mauled to death by bears. If I had used that smiley in your situation, I would've been joking, but you're completely serious; you sincerely believe that your perfect, omnibenevolent God probably killed them.

  If you check post #228 I think you'll see you're attacking your own words and your smiley face - not mine 
butterbattle wrote:
The worst part is, you actually feel that something is wrong with this, so you attempt to rationalize it by saying that maybe He wanted to produce "greater good," as if He was powerless to produce the good that He wanted unless He inflicted a bloody death upon innocent children. However, in the end, there is no credible answer, so you simply conclude that God's ways are beyond your understanding. Somehow, you're content with not knowing. Maybe you should ask God?

 

 


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spike.barnett wrote:Fonzie

spike.barnett wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Ah, yes, but when God tears little children to shreds using bears, is it a sin? Maybe He's doing it for a greater good.  

Spike, check post #228 - this is butterbattle's statement.  
spike.barnett wrote:

Elisha was a fireball wasn't he.  It did seem harsh I admit - and I don't understand the harshness of it.  But I accept it. 

This might as well be the end of the conversation. What can you say when faced with such an unwillingness to think?


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Me damn it. I'd forgotten

Me damn it. I'd forgotten all about this topic. Let me guess, the smart ass responded and my lack of internet stopped me from owning him again.

*Scans*

Yep.

Have to take care of this when I get home.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Fonzie wrote:Vastet

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

How is it that science can come out with a totally new practice and condemn the old practices of the past?   Why have they got it wrong again and again? 

 

What?

1: That is not an argument.

2: That is fiction.

3: That has nothing to do with what I said.

4: You fail horribly.

That is not an argument to you because you are not open to it.  It is simply a comparison.

No, it's simply not an argument. Period.

Fonzie wrote:

It was my answer to your question why Christians don't get it right the first time.  It seems nobody does - including scientists, bike riders or roller skaters. 

Unnacceptable. You're the one claiming an omniscient god.

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

No, I'm not.  I'm consciously deferring to the Words and Precepts and Teachings of my God. 

Wrong. You are your own god.

How is it that you know this?  Wouldn't it take a "god" to know this?  Are you your own "god"?  Is there any God above you? 

In order:

-Experience, logic, and people like you who have demonstrated the impossibility of any alternative.

-Maybe.

-Yep.

-Nope.

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

 

You and only you determine your daily and future decisions.

What about time and chance happening to us all? 

What about it? That's the universe being itself. We're the ones trying to be more than chemicals.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Stop trying to pass off your faults and gifts as something they aren't, belonging to something that doesn't exist.

 

If you were God - that would have some weight with what I start and stop.  Instead I have to regard you with the same view I have of myself when I am wrong.  I have to arrest wrong thoughts in the light of the Scriptures - those that can't show Scriptural backing. 

The scriptures are lies written by delusional idiots. Try again.

 

Fonzie wrote:

That's just your faith and your message - not mine.

I don't have faith, not the way you define the word.

Fonzie wrote:
  I'm not my own God.

Yes, you are. You just haven't accepted it yet. You've created another to take your place, shrugging off responsibility for your own actions. It's rather pathetic.

Fonzie wrote:
  I have learned I can't trust myself or my perspective. 

You can to an extent. Far more than you can an invisible and non-existant entity. 

Fonzie wrote:
I make it my goal to understand and discover God's instruction and perspective and thoughts on matters and discard mine - and yours.

Which is why you'll never find that which you seek.

Fonzie wrote:
 

Vastet wrote:

I didn't say it was from a scripture or some shit, now did I? Can you say anything of any value at all? 

One man's treasure is another's trash.

Fortunately I have the treasure. I'm even willing to share it. You just love your trash too much though.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Yet another attack. What a little bitch you are. Get off your high horse and join reality. 

As little as I appear to you I might not be the one on the horse or on the attack.

Liar. 

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

 

Your experience is a delusion.

That's your assessment of my experience.  I don't put that much trust in my perspective to assess your experience.  I would invite you to tell me that and i would tell you mine.

You want me to lay out 25 odd years of life experience for you? You first.

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

And there are people in psychiatric wards who 100% believe that they are jesus or the Queen of England.  I guess you belong with them. 

You seem pretty confident of your position - how close to 100% would you say you are? 

99.999999%.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

 

Delusion. Not evidence. If you had evidence, you'd have presented it already.

 

You make confident statements without proof.

I don't make many statements without proof. And you've provided me with nothing to prove one way or the other.

Fonzie wrote:
  I admit my confidence is based on faith in Jesus which I cannot prove to you - however I am proving it to myself and sharing it with those who are interested.  If you arent, that's your right and I respect it. 

If that were the case, you'd have never come to this site. Or maybe you just can't read. But that can't be, because you've been responding. So you're a liar, as was established above.

 

Fonzie wrote:
 

Think about it.  If you believed in God you would believe He could manage His book publishing.  (Fonzie quote)

And yet he hasn't, disirregardless of belief or disbelief. So no, I would not believe.

Fonzie wrote:
Vastet wrote:

 Then why didn't he?

 He did and He has. 

 

He didn't, and he hasn't.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Why did he leave it to a bunch of war mongering savages?

 

He evidently has more confidence in men than you seem to.

That would just make him insane as well as evil. You're not doing a good job of convincing me here.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

The only logical assumptions to be made are: A: He's an immoral piece of shit who should be forgotten. Or B: He doesn't exist.

God is merciful enough that He would let His only begotten Son be mocked like you are doing - while dying to pay the price for your sins.  Jesus showed the royal nature of the "Prince of Peace" saying, "Father forgive them for they don't know what they're doing". 

*Rolls eyes*

You can't mock the non-existant. I'm mocking YOU.

Fonzie wrote:

Know that though you make these statements about God you are loved in the face of the most painful death and insults - by God and His King Who is ready to accept you as friend.  If you reject God's Grace in Christ the worm of regret won't die for eternity.  You will always know you could have had it -= but refused. 

Sadly for you, I have a better chance in your gods eyes than you do. A truly just and good god would not punish for disbelieving in that which is invisible and has never done anything. You, on the other hand, have gone around with a closed mind for who knows how long, constantly shoving your bullshit down people's throats. You're fucked either way.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Your gold is fools gold.

The gold of the Scriptures is missed by fools - also discovered by fools who repent of their folly. 

Lies are not gold. They are lies.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:
  Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, & Gaming God.

 

Nothing heralds destruction more certainly than pride - nor honor more than humility. 

 

You are equally possessed of these qualities. For he who has never sinned may cast the first stone. You are bound by original sin, and had better go find the nearest confessionary.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Fonzie wrote:I think we

Fonzie wrote:

I think we agree - you just have a different faith.

No, we obviously don't agree. You just stated that I have a different faith, so you're obviously not defining faith the same way I am.

Fonzie wrote:
If you check post #228 I think you'll see you're attacking your own words and your smiley face - not mine

Then why did you type the same thing in post #234? Did you accidentally quote me without using the quote function? When I said that, I was joking; I was ridiculing the most common theist counterargument. Were you joking? 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Jesus saved my life,

Jesus saved my life, literally, I was on my death bed, that is why I worship Him. It's true, you cannot prove to somebody that God exists, but if you really want to know, He will show Himself to you. He is faithful and He is just, He provides when you are in need. For me, it's absurd to look at this Earth, all the beauty found in the nature of it, and try to justify it without a God. There is also a lot of scientific evidence that shows that a lot of 'coincidences' must have occured for the Earth to exist if there was no God. "Why the Universe is the Way it is" is a fantastic scientific explanation. Without a God, there would be no universe...no earth. Have you studied the properties of light? Check it out sometime and you'll discover just how extraordinary this earth and this physical reality is, and it's all thanks to this God that you don't want to believe in. But what if you tried? What if you honestly sought after this God for a personal relationship. Try it. I dare you.


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Yay for drive-byes that are

Yay for drive-byes that are based on fallacy. Auto-fail.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Angela wrote:Jesus saved my

Angela wrote:

Jesus saved my life, literally, I was on my death bed, that is why I worship Him. It's true, you cannot prove to somebody that God exists, but if you really want to know, He will show Himself to you. He is faithful and He is just, He provides when you are in need. For me, it's absurd to look at this Earth, all the beauty found in the nature of it, and try to justify it without a God. There is also a lot of scientific evidence that shows that a lot of 'coincidences' must have occured for the Earth to exist if there was no God. "Why the Universe is the Way it is" is a fantastic scientific explanation. Without a God, there would be no universe...no earth. Have you studied the properties of light? Check it out sometime and you'll discover just how extraordinary this earth and this physical reality is, and it's all thanks to this God that you don't want to believe in. But what if you tried? What if you honestly sought after this God for a personal relationship. Try it. I dare you.

Oh goody.

Another "Those doctors, nurses and paramedics busted their asses to bring me back. But it's so much easier to praise Jesus than to give them credit."

For the rest, again, it's just so much easier to claim "Goddidit" than to actually learn things, isn't it?

For a follower of a religion that they claim makes them so much more responsible than everyone else, you certainly shirk a lot of responsibility.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Angela wrote:What if you

Edit:

Angela wrote:
What if you honestly sought after this God for a personal relationship.

Why must I "honestly" presuppose this God? How is that honest? Why not any other God? Why any God at all? Why can't I just start with minimal bias and objectively search for the truth, period, regardless of where it takes me? Why can't you? That sounds a lot more honest.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Vastet wrote:Fonzie

Vastet wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

How is it that science can come out with a totally new practice and condemn the old practices of the past?   Why have they got it wrong again and again? 

 

What?

1: That is not an argument.

2: That is fiction.

3: That has nothing to do with what I said.

4: You fail horribly.

That is not an argument to you because you are not open to it.  It is simply a comparison.

No, it's simply not an argument. Period.

Fonzie wrote:

It was my answer to your question why Christians don't get it right the first time.  It seems nobody does - including scientists, bike riders or roller skaters. 

Unnacceptable. You're the one claiming an omniscient god.

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

No, I'm not.  I'm consciously deferring to the Words and Precepts and Teachings of my God. 

Wrong. You are your own god.

How is it that you know this?  Wouldn't it take a "god" to know this?  Are you your own "god"?  Is there any God above you? 

In order:

-Experience, logic, and people like you who have demonstrated the impossibility of any alternative.

-Maybe.

-Yep.

-Nope.

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

 

You and only you determine your daily and future decisions.

What about time and chance happening to us all? 

What about it? That's the universe being itself. We're the ones trying to be more than chemicals.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Stop trying to pass off your faults and gifts as something they aren't, belonging to something that doesn't exist.

 

If you were God - that would have some weight with what I start and stop.  Instead I have to regard you with the same view I have of myself when I am wrong.  I have to arrest wrong thoughts in the light of the Scriptures - those that can't show Scriptural backing. 

The scriptures are lies written by delusional idiots. Try again.

 

Fonzie wrote:

That's just your faith and your message - not mine.

I don't have faith, not the way you define the word.

Fonzie wrote:
  I'm not my own God.

Yes, you are. You just haven't accepted it yet. You've created another to take your place, shrugging off responsibility for your own actions. It's rather pathetic.

Fonzie wrote:
  I have learned I can't trust myself or my perspective. 

You can to an extent. Far more than you can an invisible and non-existant entity. 

Fonzie wrote:
I make it my goal to understand and discover God's instruction and perspective and thoughts on matters and discard mine - and yours.

Which is why you'll never find that which you seek.

Fonzie wrote:
 

Vastet wrote:

I didn't say it was from a scripture or some shit, now did I? Can you say anything of any value at all? 

One man's treasure is another's trash.

Fortunately I have the treasure. I'm even willing to share it. You just love your trash too much though.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Yet another attack. What a little bitch you are. Get off your high horse and join reality. 

As little as I appear to you I might not be the one on the horse or on the attack.

Liar. 

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

 

Your experience is a delusion.

That's your assessment of my experience.  I don't put that much trust in my perspective to assess your experience.  I would invite you to tell me that and i would tell you mine.

You want me to lay out 25 odd years of life experience for you? You first.

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

And there are people in psychiatric wards who 100% believe that they are jesus or the Queen of England.  I guess you belong with them. 

You seem pretty confident of your position - how close to 100% would you say you are? 

99.999999%.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

 

Delusion. Not evidence. If you had evidence, you'd have presented it already.

 

You make confident statements without proof.

I don't make many statements without proof. And you've provided me with nothing to prove one way or the other.

Fonzie wrote:
  I admit my confidence is based on faith in Jesus which I cannot prove to you - however I am proving it to myself and sharing it with those who are interested.  If you arent, that's your right and I respect it. 

If that were the case, you'd have never come to this site. Or maybe you just can't read. But that can't be, because you've been responding. So you're a liar, as was established above.

 

Fonzie wrote:
 

Think about it.  If you believed in God you would believe He could manage His book publishing.  (Fonzie quote)

And yet he hasn't, disirregardless of belief or disbelief. So no, I would not believe.

Fonzie wrote:
Vastet wrote:

 Then why didn't he?

 He did and He has. 

 

He didn't, and he hasn't.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Why did he leave it to a bunch of war mongering savages?

 

He evidently has more confidence in men than you seem to.

That would just make him insane as well as evil. You're not doing a good job of convincing me here.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

The only logical assumptions to be made are: A: He's an immoral piece of shit who should be forgotten. Or B: He doesn't exist.

God is merciful enough that He would let His only begotten Son be mocked like you are doing - while dying to pay the price for your sins.  Jesus showed the royal nature of the "Prince of Peace" saying, "Father forgive them for they don't know what they're doing". 

*Rolls eyes*

You can't mock the non-existant. I'm mocking YOU.

Fonzie wrote:

Know that though you make these statements about God you are loved in the face of the most painful death and insults - by God and His King Who is ready to accept you as friend.  If you reject God's Grace in Christ the worm of regret won't die for eternity.  You will always know you could have had it -= but refused. 

Sadly for you, I have a better chance in your gods eyes than you do. A truly just and good god would not punish for disbelieving in that which is invisible and has never done anything. You, on the other hand, have gone around with a closed mind for who knows how long, constantly shoving your bullshit down people's throats. You're fucked either way.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Your gold is fools gold.

The gold of the Scriptures is missed by fools - also discovered by fools who repent of their folly. 

Lies are not gold. They are lies.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:
  Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, & Gaming God.

 

Nothing heralds destruction more certainly than pride - nor honor more than humility. 

 

You are equally possessed of these qualities. For he who has never sinned may cast the first stone. You are bound by original sin, and had better go find the nearest confessionary.

 

Vastet,

Those who are well have no need of a Physician.  Have a nice day and may God bless you - consciously or otherwise.

 

 

 

 


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butterbattle wrote:Fonzie

butterbattle wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

I think we agree - you just have a different faith.

No, we obviously don't agree. You just stated that I have a different faith, so you're obviously not defining faith the same way I am.

Fonzie wrote:
If you check post #228 I think you'll see you're attacking your own words and your smiley face - not mine

Then why did you type the same thing in post #234? Did you accidentally quote me without using the quote function? When I said that, I was joking; I was ridiculing the most common theist counterargument. Were you joking? 

 

 

 

I think I made a type error or a mistake with the quote function.  Anyway, I AM a big fan of Elisha and Elijah, and I love kids.  I am confident there was an important problem there that God addressed through Elisha. 

God addressed the main problem of man through Jesus.

 


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Fonzie wrote:I think I made

Fonzie wrote:

I think I made a type error or a mistake with the quote function.  Anyway, I AM a big fan of Elisha and Elijah, and I love kids.  I am confident there was an important problem there that God addressed through Elisha. 

God addressed the main problem of man through Jesus.

Ah, well then, I am very very very very very very sorry.

Also, Fonzie, I decided to look into this controversial verse, and I found some apologist explanations that I think you will enjoy.

http://www.icr.org/article/4263/

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=827

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qmeanelisha.html

http://gts.grace.edu/documents/Messner-ElishaBears-GTJ.pdf

Of course, there are still some problems to consider. In particular, I'm rather disturbed by how several sources I looked into remarked that it doesn't even matter whether the perpetrators were little children or not or if they intended any harm towards Elisha or not; in a nutshell, if you sin, you get judged. Also, obviously, the problem remains that rabid bears coming out of nowhere and ripping people to shreds at exactly the moment Elisha curses these youths is a miracle, and, thus, makes the entire event absurd. But, at least, that would turn into a discussion over the validity of the Bible instead of its morality.

That said, I didn't encounter any sources from the non-Christian side addressing most of these points; I'm especially curious to find a source that either admits or refutes the translation error of "little children" in the KJV.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare