It works for me!
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Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
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So how is it that Paul continued to sin? As I quoted earlier Romans 7:14-25. Are you better than Paul?
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
1st John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.ex-minister wrote: I beg to differ. The conversation in Matthew 16 took place on the day of the Feast, and the disciple is worried because he did not bring bread for the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
The Truest Christian these atheists will ever meet. I worship the only Lord at the Church with the Truest Christians: Landover Baptist.
The Truest Christian these atheists will ever meet. I worship the only Lord at the Church with the Truest Christians: Landover Baptist.
Are you suggesting that the Bible contradicts itself? I assure you that is impossible. God does not contradict Himself.
Whenever Paul sinned he wasn't saved; whenever Paul was saved he didn't sin. The scripture makes clear that saved people do not sin.
1st John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known him.
As for being better or worse than Paul: I am a mere tool of God. I am as good as he causes me to be.
The Truest Christian these atheists will ever meet. I worship the only Lord at the Church with the Truest Christians: Landover Baptist.
If David said that determining one's Christianity is a matter of interpretation, then I wonder how he would interpret this?
2nd Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
The Truest Christian these atheists will ever meet. I worship the only Lord at the Church with the Truest Christians: Landover Baptist.
I would just like to point out that Fonzie has dodged all of ex-ministers questions, and has failed to present a rebuttal for my assertion that he is a false Christian. I will have to interpret the absence of a response as an admission that he is not a True Christian like me.
The Truest Christian these atheists will ever meet. I worship the only Lord at the Church with the Truest Christians: Landover Baptist.
The reason that Fonzie won't answer any of ex-ministers questions as I have done is that he doesn't want you guys to pin down his belief system to be scrutinized. That's a sure sign that he is a poe. I have proved that I am the real McCoy because I have submitted my True Belief System, the position of my church, Landover Baptist. Fonzie can't even do that. He doesn't know what he believes, which means he doesn't believe it. Maybe Fonzie wants to be a Christian, but he doesn't even know what a Christian is.
The Truest Christian these atheists will ever meet. I worship the only Lord at the Church with the Truest Christians: Landover Baptist.
Fonzie, you have been defeated.
I suppose on an IQ level they equate.
However .... she should stay home and keep pumping out those kids.
! Timothy 2:11-15
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
However, If CJ or Eloise ran for office they would have my vote.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
Fonzie is one big frustration. Months back I spent a lot of time carefully reading through this thread looking for questions that have been asked and answers that have not been given. I finally came up with a list of very specific questions, such as what denomination he was and did he believe the earth was around 10,000 years old. In reply he wrote an odd parable instead of simple yes/no, episcopalian or what have you. That was my first shot at it and I replied with my frustration and the time and effort I had gone to make it hard to not answer the question. A few people here replied LOL. I had to laugh at my foolish attempt as well. But I have to hand it to him to keep this thread going for so long. It is an accomplishment. If I could use your voice for a moment: He can tack this thread up on his wall in hell for all eternity while the devil gives him ass play and wonder at its accomplishment.
Found the post where Fonzie replied with a parable to specific questions here
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15288?page=16#comment-286795
In retrospect I should have asked for Bible speak, but as you say he doesn't know that.
What the hell is a POE? poser?
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
Interesting. I re-read the Roman chapters and also elsewhere. The way to make it consistent is Paul was referring to his previous self struggling against the law, but once saved he does not sin. So Christians who say "we are not perfect but saved" are not saved in your view. Right?
Additionally, you are sounding Calvinist. We are all tools.
God just picks and chooses. In other words free will is not true. Only those who come to Jesus are called by the Father. He hardens some hearts and softens others. We are too sinful to come to God of our own accord. So those who burn in hell forever are just tools as well. God is like a kid who plays with toy soldiers, they have no will. Some the kid honors and some he tosses.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
Billy Bob's Answers summarized (how refreshing)
1. Need for an earthly temple with priest and high priests. REPLACED
2. Need for killing an animal for the forgiveness of sins or being grateful. REPLACED
3. Not eating unclean meat REPLACED
4. Not cooking a young goat in its mother's milk. NOT REPLACED.
5. Stoning people for sins such as rebellion, being gay or being an adulterer/adulteress. NOT REPLACED.
6. Not having sex with your wife when she is on her period. NOT REPLACED
7. Saved by obeying the law. REPLACED
8. Celebrating the Feast of Unleavened Bread. REPLACED.
9. The ten commandments. NOT REPLACED
10. The first offspring of every animal belongs to God and its neck should be broken as an offering to Him. REPLACED.
Fonzie answers summarized
1. Need for an earthly temple with priest and high priests.
2. Need for killing an animal for the forgiveness of sins or being grateful.
3. Not eating unclean meat
4. Not cooking a young goat in its mother's milk
5. Stoning people for sins such as rebellion, being gay or being an adulterer/adulteress.
6. Not having sex with your wife when she is on her period.
7. Saved by obeying the law
8. Celebrating the Feast of Unleavened Bread
9. The ten commandments
10. The first offspring of every animal belongs to God and its neck should be broken as an offering to Him.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
Is fucking priceless. Maybe we've all been too sincere about this thread for too long.
JcGadfly,
It is great in this world of disappointments and distractions to find the treasure - the One in Whom the Fulness of God is pleased to dwell. Many of us searched a long time - even conducting the futile search in ourselves unsuccessfully. But the joy of finally finding the Living Christ - where All the Fulness of God is......ALL. And though the doctrines of Christ are one with Christ the Scripture doesn't say the Fulness of God dwells in the doctrines - the fulness of God dwells in HIM - Himself. Christ is alive and He is the Treasure of Treasures.
It's also a refreshing thing in this indecisive world of doubts and uncertainties to find out where All Authority is - also in Christ. And He doesn't rule His Own with an iron scepter as a tyrant but as a Husband with the wife He loves. We have an intimate connection with Him - just as Eve was created out of the rib of Adam and Adam became her head as husband, Christ is the Head of the church - the only Head. We are His body. We know our Master's voice.
Thus I don't have to be concerned about your rules for my life or your assessment of me - or the likes of Bugs Bunny your created character, or your caddy who seems stuck in the sand trap, or ex-minister, I guess an authority on how to shipwreck - or any extreme atheist views or comments. It is great to be building with one Plan, one Architect, One Authority, One Building Inspector. It is great to be navigating with One Destination on one ship. There is a peace and harmony here I don't need confirmed except by the Love of the LORD.
The atheist community is going to find it is one thing to tear down, blaspheme, mock, criticize, spit, beat, laugh like the crackle of thorns under the pot - but it is quite another thing to build up, make peace, have joy, and transplant a man from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of Light. The atheist faith is very similar to churches who have faith in their ceremonies and ritual but go nowhere because they are not connected with and directed by the Head. Putting your faith in your perfect view of and following of the law is one example. The Pharisees were an example of this belly button focus and it made them arrogant and condemning and blind to the Messiah and Salvation.
Not that the atheist community isn't connected with something. It's connected with darkness. As Jesus said, "if the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness". Your guiding light is darkness, centered in the dark one - Satan. And consider whether or not it would help Satan in his work for you to not believe he exists? But I guess it's hard to see what your focus is - in the dark.
The dark also has a sedative effect - sleep. It's easier to sleep in the dark. The atheist community is sleeping such that they don't heed the warning of the gospel and escape.
Yet here the light of the gospel can shine in a dark place and some might very well come to themselves and be saved by the power of God through the gospel. Then even the angels in heaven would rejoice - of course so would I.
Enlightenment starts with straight answers to simple questions. Answers we have given and you have not. If you are truly a person who represents the light, why keep us in darkness?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
espousing extreme views here Fonzie, is you. As always the malevolent threat of god is in your mind's eye.
The atheist 'faith' is similar to nothing you comprehend. It's called personal integrity. Try it yourself.
As for mocking you, Fonzie, you are a person who believes if we don't agree with you, we deserve to be burned alive.
While the feeling is not mutual, espousing such extreme views in this place makes you fair game.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
It's like the last 1700 posts never happened.
Everything he's said here has already been refuted, but he just keeps on ignoring , keeps on repeating...
He's reduced his religion to 100% dishonesty.
And to think he came here to show the "young people" how great "living with christ" could be.
Why does he think his dishonesty will attract people, instead of just repulse and disgust them ? After all these years, I still don't get it.
(If anyone, anyone at all, thinks this is an unfair assessment of "fonzie", then please, read the thread ! Read it and watch me try, see all of us try to talk and get through to him. If you can read this whole thread, and not come away with the undeniable impression that "fonzie" is the most dishonest person on the entire internet, then you quite simply can't read)
(And can anyone tell me where JCgadfly is doing any of this ? : "tear down, blaspheme, mock, criticize, spit, beat, laugh like the crackle of thorns under the pot -" ? Anyone ? In which post, please ? )
Nothing that you have said is supported by scripture. That's why you can't quote scripture to support it. You are not a Christian. You believe what you like, and then claim the authority of Christ.
Newsflash, queerboy! * * * Jesus is not your husband. He is your God.
You are the one who needs to awaken to the Word of God. If it wasn't for the Bible, you never would have heard of God. You would be an atheist. So open your Bible and learn what it really says about God, before it is too late.
Tell me what is worse by your divine judgment Fonzie: a false prophet who makes up God as he goes along, or an atheist who is at least honest about his atheism? You are playing right into the hand of Satan, because when someone comes to you looking for God, you mislead them and tell them all sorts of stuff that God never said. At least when a prospective Christian comes to an atheist looking for God, the atheist says "look somewhere else". You are dragging far more souls down into Hell than any atheist does.
And you still haven't answered Ex-minister's 10 questions about the New Covenant. If I am not a True Christian, as you say, then why are you afraid to debate me about the Bible?
I'll tell you why Fonzie. Because you know I am a Truer Christian than you'll ever be. When you die, you will be gagging on Satan's huge throbbing engorged penis and weeping steaming tears of agony. And you are starting to finally realize that it is your destiny. You can't go to Heaven, because you don't even have the self-discipline to figure out the plain English of the King James Bible. You are damned because you hate God too much to listen to Him and do what He says. You hate God, and you hate Jesus (even though you say you want to join with him in homosexual matrimony, this is like ejaculating directly in His Holy Eye, not loving Him).
The Truest Christian these atheists will ever meet. I worship the only Lord at the Church with the Truest Christians: Landover Baptist.
I was bit once and after that I said fuck it. I have been amazed at everyones attempt to reason with him and because of that dedication in other threads I am a big fan of this site.
Talking to Fonzie is like banging your head against a wall -- it feels so good when you stop.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
I would love to chime in on this discussion, but because of the limitation of my screen (?) I have been unable to go past page one of the thread. Or maybe it is the thread itself, I have no problem at the bottom of the page in any other thread except this one. It just... cuts off. So if I have missed anything and failed to respond, that's why.
IC XC
David
Heh...the magic thread that bends space and time.
You know, if "fonzie" has the same problem, that would actually explain a lot.
Not everything, but a lot...
You seem very sincere elsewhere on the boards but your habit of signing of with the whole IC XC Iesùs Christòs symbol thing suggests you won't be telling us anything Fonzie hasn't told us 70 times 7, so fear not.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Still cannot access the last page, boy do I feel like a dolt. Would someone please tell me if you would be so kind (via private message, e-mail, whatever) how it is possible, if it is possible, to access the last page of a thread when the page cuts off at the bottom on your computer? My e-mail address is the same as my AIM account name, and can be found under my profile.
IC XC
David
jcgadfly - (no fly),
"Us" can blame "yourselves" for staying in the darkness. "Us" are at work at it - digging the "BASEMENT OF BABEL", and feeling a centrifugal force pulling your atheist demolition team apart, knowing this "tearing down frenzy" is going nowhere and not going to bring you together in anything productive beyond demo. You, jc - no - fly think creation is nothing of design but you can't even make a fly. What makes "ex" think he is an authority on anything? I might as well ask a drunk how to stay sober. And your caddy has hallucinations - thinking he once said something of substance. And Bugs, sorry to say Bugs doesn't know how to find his rear with the map on his hand.
Here's a little poem illustrating the confusion:
Some speak between the teeth,
Some in the nose,
Some in the throat their words do ill dispose.
"Bring m", quoth one, "a trowel, quickly, quick!"
One brings him up a hammer.
"Hew this brick," another bids;
and then they cleave a tree,
"Make fast this rope," and then they let it flee
One calls for planks, another mortar lacks;
They bear the first a stone, the last an axe.
One would have spikes, and him a spade they give;
Another asks a saw - and gets a sieve.
Thus crossly crost, they prate and point in vain:
What one hath made another mars again.
These masons then, seeing the storm arrived
Of God's just wrath, all weak and heart-deprived,
Forsake their purpose, and like frantic fools,
Scatter their stuff and tumble down their tools.
DU BARTAS
Good to know you still can't give straight answers.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
@ Fonzie
So, you don't believe in the Bible, or what?
Fonzie,
It pains me to see that your intellectual pansiness still prevents you from answering simple 'a' or 'b' questions, now an infinite + 10 times. Your lithium-atrophied brain must have already lost the memory of the question: Which do you value more, the truth (a) or your beliefs (b)?
Rather, you would recite an effeminately-worded poem about bricklaying, betraying both your suppressed feelings for men as well as your ties to the freemasons.
How long will you shamelessly bend over and tuck-point yourself like this?
There are no theists on operating tables.
What does any of this even mean ???
Has he now forgotten the meaning of "us" and "yourselves" as well ? Why "no fly" ? Why is he throwing insults at ex-minister now ? Who's that caddy he keeps talking about ? WHY does he keep talking about that ? And who's Bugs, and what did he do to deserve being insulted ? How is that poem even remotely relevant to anything we've been trying to talk to him about ??
Get your blood tested , answer the questions and adress the posts you've been ignoring, please.
Unless you can convince him to stop popping lithium without taking regular bloodtests, there's really nothing you can do here, so no worries.
But if you do figure it out, please read the whole thread first (and his first one too, another 1000+ bastard), so we don't have to repeat ourselves to you as well.
As a side note, to Billy Bob, how's the church's power transition going?
Finally, I am back. I have a few responses.
First, to AtheistExtremist: Thanks for the vote of confidence (comments on my sincerity), but I wonder what my signature, "IC XC" has at all to do with whether I have anything new to contribute to this discussion? I claim to be a Christian, and I attempt in an as yet imperfect way to live by those principles, why should it be problematic - or why should someone dismiss what I have to say? - on the basis of my regular confession of faith? Here is the one thing I do not and perhaps never will understand: the lack of engagement from the other side, the lack of charity and the lack of desire for even a cordial dialog or discussion. All the while I want people actually to talk about their beliefs, and justify them, but in response people assume several personal things about me and identify me with branches or sects of Christianity and ask me to defend those. I am not answerable for the actions and beliefs of these people; what matters here are arguments, and justifications, not my personal history or my subjective reasons for belief, or my advocacy of this or that policy or principle. What I wish to point out, and what is often met with frustration, is that these are irrelevant to the logic of my arguments or to what makes my belief true, if it is true. For people who are rational, I would expect you to welcome an engagement which clears away all the personal crap in favor of dispassionate discussion, but some of you seem very passionate in your dislike - and in some cases I would even say disgust - of all things theist or spiritual. That is fine, but how conducive to discussion is it? Are we here to talk about reasons for belief versus reasons for disbelief, or about how most Christians are bad people?
As for Billy Bob's remarks, I think I indicated elsewhere that I do not take him seriously. He may or may not be a parody, but whatever or whoever he is, he does not represent my belief or attitude. In fact no one is really representative of my personal belief; I simply believe in Christ and try to follow the doctrines of Christ. I just choose to ignore him because he exhibits the spirit I mentioned in the above paragraph, bare assertions, subjective interpretation of the Scriptures, the type of "preachiness" which gets theists nowhere with unbelievers.
To jcgadfly: I am sure what I said to ever give you the impression that I hold to a sort of relativism or belief that one's spiritual status is a matter of interpretation. I said simply, "I do not know." I do not believe God has given me a window on anybody's soul, and that the soul I should be worried about is my own. One can talk a lot about being a True Christian, but last I checked, being a True Christian meant you did not go around policing people and their actions in an obnoxious, judgmental way. I am far from perfect and do not even pretend to have arrived, for as the Apostle John says, "If anyone claims not to have sinned, He makes God a liar." I fail to see why my lack of a definitive answer should render my faith "relativist." It is not as though I have said all paths lead to God, or it does not matter what one believes. It sure matters what one believes, but I am not the judge of such beliefs. This is an embrace of the limits of human comprehension, not a wink toward relativism in which all beliefs become equal. I should condemn no one to hell, because it is not mine to condemn anyone to hell, and it is as simple as that. The most I can do is point to the truth, say "this is where it is" and "it is not in these other places," but I see no reason why I should be made to give final answers on the eternal destiny of people when really I know so little about what they have been through or their communication with God and Christ. I hope that clarifies matters.
There is a concerted effort to demonstrate, I think, that because there are those with competing claims to the truth, that therefore the "truth" which they espouse is null, or cannot be known. I think this is a pretty basic mistake in logic. The range of choices in no way rules out any of them from being true, nor does it make it impossible to know what the truth is. Here we run up against a number of unwarranted assumptions. For example, the assumption that a multiplicity of choices which claim the same thing must all be false or unprovable. But as I posted in another thread, multiplicity abounds in the sciences as well. Take philosophy: are you an epistemic coherentist, an epistemic foundationalist, or something else, and why? When it comes to science, are you a realist, an antirealist, or something else, and why? In logic: realism or nominalism or idealism or something and why? Yet who among us will just scrap science and logic and philosophy altogether, merely because they're all claiming better explanations for this or that phenomena, yet they contradict and often mutually exclude each other, and to accept one over the other has consequences for the rest of your belief?
Here is what no one seems to have touched on: belief in God is axiomatic. It is presupposed for the sake of other things in the system. It is a different "language game" to wax Wittgensteinian about it. It is a different "paradigm" to wax Kuhnian about it. So, when someone denies the existence of God - not just to make statements about their personal belief, but to say with positive analytical certainty, "God does not exist," they need to demonstrate familiarity with the concept of God so that they and others know what it is that they are rejecting. I find that it usually boils down to either misconceptions or strawmen or the repeated assertion that belief in God is "irrational," but there is no demonstration of familiarity with even the concept of God in all these comments. Belief in the existence of God, like any axiom, is explanatory rather than ad hoc. So what one needs to show is that the existence of God is not necessary to explain anything, or rather, that things can be explained via some other medium such as natural science, logic, philosophy, etc. What I have seen up to this point is a rejection of God on the basis of other undefended axioms. One must show, based on their axioms, how everything is explainable. How one can justify ethics and reason from within the atheist framework. That would be something like an argument, and it is all I have asked for. But with those who reject my axiom, and judge it by the standard of theirs, no dialog is possible, we will simply continue go around and around in circles, because I will insist that both our points-of-view are simply based on things that neither of us can prove, it is just that (I believe) my view happens to be more consistent about what it can and cannot prove.
Anyway, there is some food for thought, I hope I have no worn out my welcome or repeated anything you have heard in previous discussions and debunked there. I have a day job, so it is near impossible for me to read this whole thread and another thread with 1,000+ posts.
IC XC
David
It always amuses me to see the "You can't be moral or ethical without God" argument. In my view, Christians are the biggest proponents of moral relativism because they can do whatever they wish as long as they ask for forgiveness and promise real hard to try and not do it again (until it is convenient/beneficial for them to do so). Sure was nice of Paul to eliminate the need for actual repentance, huh?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
The Truest Christian these atheists will ever meet. I worship the only Lord at the Church with the Truest Christians: Landover Baptist.
Maybe I should just ignore you because you make such a mockery of the Lord. But I am a Soldier for Christ, not a Satanic coward.
I make no interpretations of the scriptures whatsoever. I take the KJV1611 at face value. Whatever it says, that is the truth. You are just saying that I interpret the scriptures subjectively to taunt me, false Christian. Well, I will not stoop to your level and get personal like that.
Maybe if you read the Bible you would know that.
You say you "do not know" what a Christian is. Then how can you say that you are one?
It is definitely true that you should be worried about the fate of your soul. I would not dispute that.
As for accusing me of being judgmental, this only proves your ignorance of Christianity. See, God commands us to pass judgment on others. As follows:
Leviticus 19:15 ...in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
Psalm 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.
Proverbs 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
You point out that, as the scripture indicates, all have sinned. But those who are saved sin no longer.
1st John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
You reduce your belief in God to the same status as choosing a philosophy to adhere to. Are you saying that what religion to choose is up for debate? You don't sound like much of a Christian to me. You sound like a satirist, the way you mock God.
You say you cannot prove Christianity. Then you say you believe because Christianity is more consistent about what it can or cannot prove. Are you saying that atheism can be proven sometimes, but Christianity cannot? I think that you are mocking God, and that I will be up in Heaven mocking your suffering while you burn in Hell, for all eternity.
Galatians 6:7 (King James Version) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
How is it that I make unfounded assertions, when everything I say is backed up by the KJV1611? Are you saying that the Bible is not an authority?
The Truest Christian these atheists will ever meet. I worship the only Lord at the Church with the Truest Christians: Landover Baptist.
So not knowing is just not good enough. As we make more discoveries and attribute less and less to your god of the gaps how long will you be able to prop him up, here is my question:
Exactly why is your "God" necessary for anything but as an easy out and a way to make you feel special when we are clearly filling in these gaps with scientific evidence?
From what I have seen, if and when the last piece of the puzzle falls into place your god will not be one of those pieces.
Edit: and if you have read the bible and cherry picked your Jesus parts I would ask what you would think of a child rapist who helped an old lady cross the street this one time. Can you really base your faith on a little of this and that and not take into consideration the whole?
That's a bow at Billy Bob heh.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Hey, if you don't want to deal with a 1000+ thread, then don't post in one
.
If you're not going to read it, you're just going to have to take my word for it that everything you touched on there has been dealt with already, also, it's quite irrelevant to the discussion we're still trying to have with "fonzie".
So to avoid confusion and needless repetition, you might want to start your own thread, dealing with something specific you'd like to discuss.
Sound advice, unless he is cahoots w/ fonzie
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
jcgadfly,
I never said someone could not be moral without God - they can, and they often are, which is just the point. The question is whether or not one can justify their morals and thus give themselves - and others - sufficient rational grounds to be moral and to condemn those who are not moral, which is just to say, the question is whether morals can be defended on rational grounds alone as normative without an appeal to some arbitrary standard. Well, can it? That said, it (again) really is no argument against my position to say that I espouse or fellow Christians espouse relativism because of this or that belief. Even if my belief is wrong, that does not make your belief right. An argument would have been like, "Morals can be defended as normative on rational grounds alone, without appeal to anything else, because..." and then you give me a reason, not simply personal details about how you find it humorous. As I am sure you and others here understand, no amount of laughter puts you in a better epistemic condition or falsifies my belief, though many atheists would hope so. If I just ridiculed your beliefs you would recognize it for what it is: question-begging. So I ask you in all politeness not to assume that my beliefs are co-extensive with everybody other Christian's and then argue against me based on faulty assumptions. And I would remind you that my lack of solidarity with those other Christians does not in any way imply my belief must be wrong, anymore than divergent theories of evolution make the theory of evolution itself false. And please, if my argument is so poor and easy to rebuff, then rebuff it.
robj101,
If one wants to claim that they do not know, then let them claim that they do not know. But that is not what many of the people here do: they claim to know, or at least they assert (which is a sort of claim to knowledge), that God does not exist. If one wants to make that claim, and pretend to know it, then they need to defend their claim. I have no problem with a person who says, "Here, this is why I do not believe." Then I can discuss their unbelief with them. But to say God does not exist and then demand me to prove it, when I have gone to great lengths to show that the deck, at least on the atheist side, is usually stacked (without warrant) against belief in God before one has even furnished one's proof - to make a claim which is never defended and then demand a defense of those who claim the opposite, that is special pleading. Please demonstrate to me how belief in God is "god of the gaps." I do not buy this interpretation, which is all it is, of theistic belief. I won't go into all the other interpretations of theistic belief - there are quite a few more than this bargain-basement atheist variety - but suffice it to say that if one wants to argue against belief in God from the standpoint of it being a gap-filler, then one needs to make that argument. In other words, why should I accept your premise that God is simply there to fill some space that needs filling? Even if it were true, would that make the belief false? As a matter of logic, no.
There are plenty of things people believe in because they are the best explanations and no one accuses them of "just filling the gaps." So this is neither cogent nor persuasive, not to mention that you haven't even given an argument except to presuppose that my belief is wrong. That's hardly convincing, and hardly worthy of a so-called rational person. So I ask you, to try again. If you do not understand my belief, the least you could do is ask before you assume. And in fact, if someone would just take the time to read my comments and respond carefully rather than just spout what is becoming the tiresome atheist claptrap (the religious fervor of atheists?) and would actually engage my points, this discussion might be able to get off the ground. As it is now everybody's firing missiles and seems to think that, the more missiles fired, the more their points will be proven as the only rational alternative. But I guess when you are atheist, then the only thing left when it comes to rational discourse is the assert your power as a Nietzschean Super-man in the form of mockery? I'm pretty sure that's a logical fallacy.
IC XC
David
Anonymouse,
Fair enough. I will do that when I have time (only have time right now to shoot responses from the hip).
IC XC
David
It's not my intention to chase you out of this thread. It's just that some of the comments you made show that you have absolutely no idea what's going on here. This stopped being a theist/atheist discussion long ago. Now it's just between people who can read, and someone who simply refuses to do so ( that would be "Fonzie" )
Also, ever since he told us how he takes his medication, some of us have been concerned about his health, and have been trying to convince him to take better care of himself.
No luck so far.
Science does attempt to fill gaps with plausible data, not mythical figures who dance in the clouds.
This argument has been done and redone, I refuse to explain why you can't disprove a leprechaun it's just old news.
There is no evidence FOR a god NONE ZILCH NADA, therefore I do not think one exists and that as time goes by we will figure out the why's and how's. I do not think making things up like gods and superman is for any more than to make us feel good and you can't prove otherwise.
Lightning strikes and a frightened man decides there is a powerful being up there throwing a tantrum, well now we know more about how lightning forms and it has nothing to do with a "being". Same goes for rainbows etc.
You should really do a bit of research, I hate to hash and rehash everything over and over again. Yea those videos on youtube that you do not like to watch, the websites you do not prefer etc, look at them. Maybe someone else will take the time to point out all the particulars, I don't feel obligated to do so at this time. I'd rather play some apb.
Watch a few Dawkins debates with a clear head, thats my advice.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
Why should I defend a position I don't hold? You claim that there is an absolute moral standard giver called God. I clam that the morals we have come from what is beneficial to the society as a whole i.e. Harming others is a detriment to society so society punishes those who do it. Why do you claim a need for normative grounds when your Bible doesn't have them? I do not mean to ridicule your beliefs but when you sign Jesus to something and then act like you've never read the book that is supposedly his word, I have cause to wonder.
I do not assert that God does not exist. I assert that you can't prove that he does - thus I don't believe. You claim your belief constitutes provable knowledge - let's have it.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
So as not to derail the discussion on this thread, apropos of Anonymouse's comments, I will respond to comments in a separate thread when I have time.
IC XC
David
So what do these text mean?
Matthew 7:1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged.
Romans 2:1
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
James 4:12
There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
ex-minister,
Make sure those quotes are from the KJV1611. You see, no Christian before that was ever saved because they had to use different versions (like the Byzantine text), and if that is not from an edition that was actually printed in 1611, you risk blasphemy.
IC XC
David
Man, I hope you're joking.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I don't have a problem with using the KJV1611. As Christopher Hitchens say I have no problem respecting the social sensibilites of religious people. I like all the versions and studied Koine Greek in college. Back then the NIV was considered a really good translation. In contrasting Greek to English I agreed. For some reason there has been a backlash against it. Too liberal. So people like conservapedia run off to make their own version. It all is quite silly to me and proves they have an agenda and a rod up their ass. I go for understanding and so can learn from all the versions.
Blasphemy is a victimless crime.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
jcgadfly,
Yes. Being a theist hasn't robbed me of a sense of humor.
ex-minister,
That wasn't quite the point, but I appreciate your respect for religious traditions.
IC XC
David
First of all, I can see what you are doing, atheist. You are trying to make it appear as though God is contradicting Himself. Well, I happen to know that, since God is perfect, He never, ever contradicts Himself, even if it may appear that way to non-believers. I aim to demonstrate in the explanations below that none of these verses that seem to forbid judging others actually contradict the verses I selected which command us to judge others.
The two verses you have mentioned above (from Matthew and Luke) do not say "don't judge". They say if you judge, then you will also be judged. The implication is, since we are also called upon by God to judge, that He also expects us to be judged, even though it is sometimes embarassing.
The Truest Christian these atheists will ever meet. I worship the only Lord at the Church with the Truest Christians: Landover Baptist.
Was that a joke too ?