It works for me!

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It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


I AM GOD AS YOU
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  Hey MODS  give me my

  Hey MODS  give me my last  post back and I will fix it .... what the heck ....  who did that ???????????????  ... I DID not WRITE that last post under my pen name ....


darth_josh
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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:  Hey

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

  Hey MODS  give me my last  post back and I will fix it .... what the heck ....  who did that ???????????????  ... I DID not WRITE that last post under my pen name ....

 

It's gone. Kill em with kindness forum, buddy.

I will go back and put my name to the edit.

Still love ya.

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Sheezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Sheezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  The message was god is not a HE daddy thing, and if you ain't god you are a silly idol worshiper ... and atheism today is the on going Resurrection of truth, as I say I am God as YOU , without the FEAR of a death sentence .....

  COME CLEAN ... who deleted me? .... did you save my WONDERFUL RANT ???

was this a computer glitch ??????????? That hurt .....


darth_josh
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I axed it.I did not save it.

I axed it.

I did not save it.

We don't pick out words and change them all the time.

You're not the only one that has lost a rant and won't be the last.

I love your posts and deeply appreciate your participation EXCEPT when they go too far.

It is the same with everyone even our theists and I don't see that changing today or the next.

So as eternally and ever lovingly omnipotent we are as gods as you we do try our best.

We want the world to love all of your little gods and goddesses.

That's why we have the rules made and put in place.

I did not save it.

I axed it.

 

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 Oh no! This is "Kill Em

 Oh no! This is "Kill Em With Kindness" isn't it?

I keep using the Recent Posts link on the left side of the page so I always forget when I'm in this section. I might have some........... "unadvisable" material in my previous posts. Sorry.....

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Well thanks Darth for

Well thanks Darth for letting me know ... but darn it, I really liked that rant , I put a lot  into it .... and HEY,  what happened to the BIG RED WARNING , Kindness thing to the left????  I just post , I don't visit forums here , except to post an OP .

  Why a no cussing rule anyways ????  Is smelly poopoo stink an unkind reality ...  is the slang word for sexual intercourse an unkind word??? To treat them with kindness is to call them on their stupidity from caring.

My post YOU deleted was all KINDNESS .... YOU GOOFED Darth .... I AM KINDNESS. I am indignant. Oh well, love ya just the same. WE all goof , darn it ... LOL  

  Say no more , I've recovered , laughing again , really ...   


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Kindness?*sigh*There people

Kindness?

*sigh*

There people go, making up words again! Next they're gonna tell me that mercy and compassion are words too!

 

Hmmm, maybe the kindness board isn't the place for a guy with a pic of someone clubbing a baby seal as an avatar.

 

It takes a village to raise an idiot.

Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.

Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.


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Desdenova

Desdenova wrote:

Kindness?

*sigh*

There people go, making up words again! Next they're gonna tell me that mercy and compassion are words too!

 

Hmmm, maybe the kindness board isn't the place for a guy with a pic of someone clubbing a baby seal as an avatar.

 

 

Do you guys know how many times we(the mods) have had this discussion with other people?

Now, I suppose we should return to the matter at hand, which is figuring out how to communicate with preachers on a message board.

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Fonzie wrote:In order to

Fonzie wrote:
In order to take that confident a stand you have to have faith in something.

No, what I need is enough evidence to support my position, and a lack of evidence for theirs, or even better, evidence that their position is false. If I didn't have evidence for something I wouldn't believe it in the first place, so I wouldn't be confident at all if it came down to faith.

Quote:
Would you say the thought of eternity is in your mind - or are you like the cattle in the truck on the way to the slaughterhouse where Temple Grandin the famous autistic has designed it so that even there mercifully they don't anticipate what's coming?

Huh? Either you stop talking in riddles, or you'll have to supply me with the decryption codes. Once again I fail to understand you.

 

"Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much fraternizing with the enemy."


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Fonzie wrote:You have an

Fonzie wrote:

You have an ever so slight way of changing what I said.

How so?

Quote:
These things are recognizable:  heart, mind, spirit - and the Word of God, the Mind and Heart of God revealed to us by the Spirit of God through the Scriptures and the gift of the Spirit of God in the "born again" believer.
Only in a believer?  that seems awfully lucky for the person who believes all that stuff already!  It certainly isn't recognizable to most people on Earth.

Quote:
Also, yes, there is the spirit of Satan and his demonic spirits.
And, according to your religion, he is more powerful than you and would be able to fool you easily.  Convince me you aren't a follower of Satan, please.

Quote:
Jesus has brought me from death to life in Him.  I discern these things mentioned above.

My will is steward of this earthly real estate and I have decided that when it comes to a choice between what thought is in my mind versus what thought is in the Word of God - there is no contest.  I trust the Word of God more than any of my thoughts.

The scenario of all this is a war zone, and there has been spiritual violence in the past among these - and casualties.  And I am on guard ready for more violence if necessary. 

Plans don't always work as smoothly as planned in war and seeing through the confusion you describe has been a struggle.  Fortunately I discern a Shepherd, a Captain leading me in this battle.  The intensity has been very high at times - examining the very things you mentioned, even being blindsided by them.

As far as ignorance; who is truly ignorant but the man who forgets his God? 

Wisdom may be misrepresented to you as clever wording.  Jesus didn't withhold the bread of life by hiding it in eloquence.  He Who the world was created through and in Whom it holds together humbled Himself even to death on a cross. 

There is a violent war of discernment concerning these things within us and without.  The transforming power of faith in Jesus knows that if He says it - it's true.  That ends all the doubts and questionings and speculation of men.

With this power from Him I am brought to life that is life indeed and led on to life eternal.

This is preaching and regurgitation of dogma.  Can you think for yourself?  Why not just quote the koran or whatever religious book you want and call it truth?

 

...oh, right... that' what you're doing... :-/

 

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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jcgadfly wrote:darth_josh

jcgadfly wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

I'm out.

If the answer to every question is 'faith' then why bother asking for our 'reasons' for our lack of it?

They don't really consider them reasons - more like excuses.

"Oh, that nasty thinking thing. Why don't you give that up and go with God?"

THINKING - NASTY OR NO  -

jc, old buddy, old pal-

From my experience and perspective the good news of salvation in Jesus enhances thinking. 

Isn't it better to think in an atmosphere of peace of mind and full assurance?

I'm not concerned about the past nor anxious about the future.  I'm putting my strength into today and focused on it.  I'm not afraid of death and have hopes that see and extend beyond that horizon. 

This is all enabled by the great hold faith has on the Sword of the Word of God. 

What doubt can't be killed by that double edged sword?

Today my conscience is clear and my heart is lifted with joy because this moment I am in fellowship with the Living God in Christ.  I hold tight on things the Lord says, like, "I will never leave or forsake you". 

My spirit burns bright fed by the anointing oil of the Holy Spirit. 

My mind is well stocked with gold of Scripture.  I am content and happy with my work.  I am at peace with all men including you and myself.  I am at rest but highly motivated to work.

I am secure and at peace in Christ - Who is the same yesterday and today and forever - but on guard and aware of danger, ready to draw the Sword of the Word of God.

I am happy with my lovely wife, my crown.  Troubles and discouragements are to me a spiritual workout gym, a weight to lift and get stronger.  I totally accept and embrace my lot and today, the moment.  The presence of Christ is always with me, lifting me up.

Where is it that I am having a problem in my thinking - and where is it that you are profiting from thinking that is unknown to me? 

 

 

 


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BobSpence1 wrote:Fonzie

BobSpence1 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

Fonzie, this is what it comes down to for the believer isn't it, they have ultimately had some incredible experience or series of experiences which they have found totally undeniable as being the most direct contact with God.And backed up by your perception of the world thru 'the eyes of faith'.

The problem that we see from our perspective is that we hear very similar and every bit as heart-felt testimony form individuals with a whole range of 'faiths', which have varying degrees of incompatible details, including ones which definitely do not have CHrist and his sacrifice as part of their belief.

To further stir up the sand on which you have built your faith, there are quite a number of people who have been into a faith every bit as deep as you seem to be, who have actually, after further and even deeper study of the Bible, have had the scales of 'faith' fallen from their eyes and mind and seen that deep down, the belief system is built on nothing but wishful thinking.

So you either have to insist that all these people are deceived or are liars, or admit the possibility that you are experiencing exactly what they have, but have yet to work your way thru the 'faith' phase out into the clear light of honest dealing with the world as it is. You may well be happier in your comforting cocoon of faith, so perhaps we should just leave you alone.

In the immortal words of Jack Nicholson from the movie "A Few Good Men", 'You can't handle the truth!"

 

Well Bob,

We don't know what a day wil bring forth - that's true - so I won't boast about what I will/won't do tomorrow....  but we do know we are all eventually going to die.  That's a blessing because we can prepare for it.  That's a way in which we are different than the cattle on the truck. 

Jesus has rescued me from the prison of the fear of death - through faith in Him and spiritually discerning and experiencing His presence.

I am recommending this good news to you and anyone who will listen.  You have obviously thought about these things and are in the process of choosing.

Does it interest you that the most controversial choice appears to be Jesus?

Don't know if I've noticed that, usually Jesus is the one mentioned on this board by people coming on. What other prophets were you comparing him to?

What makes Jesus any better than Mohammed, Buddha, Vishnu, etc, etc.?

Bob - You'll have to decide for yourself, but for me it's the difference between real and fake.

BobSpence1 wrote:

You didn't really address the point that many other people have felt just as strongly about Jesus as you appear to now, and found eventually that it DOES NOT 'work for them', ultimately. Maybe they value truth over comforting fiction...

From my perspective you are trying to give examples of failure to disprove success.


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

I'm out.

If the answer to every question is 'faith' then why bother asking for our 'reasons' for our lack of it?

They don't really consider them reasons - more like excuses.

"Oh, that nasty thinking thing. Why don't you give that up and go with God?"

THINKING - NASTY OR NO  -

jc, old buddy, old pal-

From my experience and perspective the good news of salvation in Jesus enhances thinking. 

Isn't it better to think in an atmosphere of peace of mind and full assurance?

I'm not concerned about the past nor anxious about the future.  I'm putting my strength into today and focused on it.  I'm not afraid of death and have hopes that see and extend beyond that horizon. 

This is all enabled by the great hold faith has on the Sword of the Word of God. 

What doubt can't be killed by that double edged sword?

Today my conscience is clear and my heart is lifted with joy because this moment I am in fellowship with the Living God in Christ.  I hold tight on things the Lord says, like, "I will never leave or forsake you". 

My spirit burns bright fed by the anointing oil of the Holy Spirit. 

My mind is well stocked with gold of Scripture.  I am content and happy with my work.  I am at peace with all men including you and myself.  I am at rest but highly motivated to work.

I am secure and at peace in Christ - Who is the same yesterday and today and forever - but on guard and aware of danger, ready to draw the Sword of the Word of God.

I am happy with my lovely wife, my crown.  Troubles and discouragements are to me a spiritual workout gym, a weight to lift and get stronger.  I totally accept and embrace my lot and today, the moment.  The presence of Christ is always with me, lifting me up.

Where is it that I am having a problem in my thinking - and where is it that you are profiting from thinking that is unknown to me? 

 

 

 

Interesting - I have all the positive things you point to (peace of mind, full assurance, lack of worry for present and future, happiness in a equal relationship with my wife) without having to worship the Canaanite gods that you do.

Why do you need them?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Desdenova wrote:Ya know, I

Desdenova wrote:

Ya know, I was raised a theist, in a southern Baptist family no less. My friends and neighbors all followed similar paths. While a Christian, which I was for nearly 20 years, I saw my fair share of lies, thievery, adultery, greed, and hypocrisy in my fellow Christians. I wrote it off as human nature, and kept my faith. I was never militant about my beliefs, but they were present nonetheless.

 

In the autumn of my teens, I had a bit of a personal crisis which caused me to peer even deeper into religion in hope of answers to my problem. I attended a nearby college and studied theology. Unfortunately for my faith, the college didn't teach fundamentalist theology. Instead, I started learning troubling things that made me forget my problem for the moment. My comparative religious studies illustrated how much of the Bible, a book I in hindsight must have thought was written in a vacuum, actually had origins in older, pagan writings. To my dismay I found that the story of Noah was actually Sumerian. I was shocked to learn that the creation event in Genesis was hacked together from the Enuma Elish. I almost cried when I discovered that the Song of Solomon was ripped from Egyptian love poetry. The more I studied, the more I discovered that the Bible was nothing more than a plagerization of older pagan myths.

 

By age 20 I had dropped Christianity along with my aspirations of becoming a minister. I switched my major to Near Eastern history, and began looking into alternative religions. But my eyes had been opened already, and I found myself subjecting the latest religious dabbling with the same scrutiny that I had previously subjected the Bible to. They all fell short. I was a hopeful agnostic without a path. Ever reaching, never finding.

 

By age 30 I was comfortable in my agnosticism, married to a young lady with her children in tow. It was then that I, always an avid reader, chanced upon a copy of Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World. Ironically, this was the book that truly opened my eyes and gave me hope. I discovered a new way of looking at the world, a way that didn't involve blind faith, fantasy, or invisible sky fairies. I felt enlightened, illuminated, invigorated! It wasn't all smooth sailing, though. There were several nights that I would wake up in tears, thinking " Oh, shit! I'm gonna die someday, and when  do, game over! ". But with the cold, grey light of dawn, I would realize that, while this was true, there really wasn't anything to become frightened about. After all, before I was born I didn't exist, and there wasn't anything scary about that. And after several false starts, I finally made the transition to atheist.

 

I read books on atheism, agreeing with virtually everything I read. I read books that argued against atheism, and dismantled their arguments piece by piece for the sheer joy of mental exercise. But, like my Christian self, I wasn't militant. I kept my mouth shut. I also had a stunning revelation at this time. Despite what I had been taught about atheism, I had not eaten a baby, had not ran amok through the streets killing, looting, and raping, and had not even cheated on my taxes! In fact, my ethical code had grown stronger as I found that I had no invisible sky daddy to blame my actions on. 

 

Three years later I finally gave voice to my atheism in a local newspaper, in response to a fundamentalist minister's letter to the editor. Within a matter of days I had received death threats, had a brick thrown through my living room window, had my dog poisoned, and had child protective services called to my house on a claim that my wife and I were subjecting my stepchildren to Satanic rituals. Do you know what my crime was? The fundy preacher was petitioning to have the town officially change the name of Halloween to Noah's Neat Treat Night. When I read this in the paper, I unloaded on the idiot, explaining, with references, how his religion had already stolen Christmas and Easter from the pagans, and insisted that enough was enough.

 

Dozens of exchanges followed, with only two people coming to my defense, a Wiccan and a Catholic priest. The priest jumped in when the fundy, after responding to a comment I made about saint Brigid being a pagan goddess, stated that " Catholics aren't Christians! ".

 

When the smoke had cleared, there was nothing left but some broken glass, a cherished four legged member of my family dead, and a soiled reputation ( though the Satanic abuse allegations were found to be false, naturally. ).

 

Then and only then did I become a militant atheist. I began debating creationists, even at their doorstep, the Creation Evidence Museum in Glen Rose Tx for instance. I pushed the Campus Crusade for Cthulhu in mockery of the Campus Crusade for Christ. I found the debate rooms on MSN, and became an evangelical atheist. And the really sad thing is, none of this would ever have happened without the violence and hatred thrown at me by god fearing, evangelical Christians that were willing and ready to assault anyone that challenged their interpretation of the Bible.

 

I am not a blissfully happy atheist, but then again, I wasn't blissfully happy as a Christian. What I am is a better educated, more aware, and vastly more critically thinking person that has a vision of making the here and now a better place to live rather than squeezing shut my eyes and hoping for a glorious afterlife. I am more inclined to generosity because I don't believe that the poor will be rewarded in heaven. I don't harm others because I know that this life is all that they have. I don't lie because I feel that the corruption of information is the closest thing to a sin there is. All in all, I think that makes me an incomparably better person than I was as a Christian. It works for me, and thanks to my Christian neighbors, it makes me want to spread the good news to everyone so it can work for them as well. Who knows, maybe it will spare the life of someone else's dog!

 

This was very interesting, very interesting...

I don't have any illusions of convincing you otherwise - because scripture says it is impossible to restore one who has tasted the heavenly gift then turned away - it could happen, I'm not saying that and the Bible's not saying that.  It's just that the door opens from your side.

But first I think the efforts to moralize the world like the guy wanting to change the holiday are a misrepresentation of Jesus, because He didn't do that or advocate it.  That's why He rebuked Peter's ear removal of the guard in the garden.  He said His Kingdom is not of this world - or His servants would fight. 

The guy was trying to legislate the world from the Bible.  It didn't accomplish anything good because it isn't authorized by Scripture which is the Spirit of Jesus, God breathed.

Your bitterness is misdirected because you experienced the results of something that God didn't instruct anybody to do.  He didn't do the cause of God any good in doing that, and there are many, many examples of this - all in sheep's clothing.

I hope you will re-trace on this and reconsider that there are many misrepresentations of what Jesus said.  Right at the end of John Jesus told Peter a metaphor of how he was going to die and Peter ask about John.  Jesus told Peter, "if he sticks around until I come again what's that to you".  The Scripture then says that some were mischaracterizing this to say John wasn't going to die, but the point of it was for Peter to mind his business.  So Scripture gives us an example of misrepresentation. 

You see how things get misrepresented in everything and are you - a thinking person - going to let this keep you double-parked un unbelief? 

How are you going to feel if this turns out to be the case - in the end you have been cheated out of something eternally great because of this hypocrite?  Won't that be the ultimate victory for hypocrisy and ultimate regret for you? 

My understanding of what happened is that you made a turning point when you got in the college classroom.  At that point you started putting faith in the scholar's view of Scripture.  I don't have that kind of faith in scholars.  I have worked for some of them that, well, just don't inspire confidence.

In contrast I hae complete confidence and faith in the Scriptures.  It's all great food.  I have no doubts about any of it.  There are some mysteries that maybe I'll eventually understand, maybe not.  It doesn't matter.  I know Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords forever. 

 


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Fonzie wrote:BobSpence1

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:


What makes Jesus any better than Mohammed, Buddha, Vishnu, etc, etc.?


Bob - You'll have to decide for yourself, but for me it's the difference between real and fake.

But that is the point, what is your criterion for deciding between real and fake?
There is absolutely no way for you to compare the 'authenticity' of your experience is more 'real' than some other person's internal confidence in the reality of theirs, since you do not have access to their mind.

If you can accept that others can be deeply sincere in their conviction, yet mistaken, and admit that it is just a matter of personal judgement, then you admit you could be the one who is in error.

If you won't concede that you could be wrong, then you ARE either dishonest or deluded.

Quote:

BobSpence1 wrote:


    You didn't really address the point that many other people have felt just as strongly about Jesus as you appear to now, and found eventually that it DOES NOT 'work for them', ultimately. Maybe they value truth over comforting fiction...


From my perspective you are trying to give examples of failure to disprove success.


You still have no way to know that that is in fact the case, rather than the other possibilty that you are the one mired in delusion, and have yet to encounter the experience which opens your eyes.
Someone who has been through the process has extra experience that you haven't, so is in a better position to judge.
Simply saying they have not had a genuine experience, or are on the wrong path, will not help, since there is no way, without external oobjective evidence, ie not just internal experience, to know who is closer to the truth.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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butterbattle wrote:Fonzie

butterbattle wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
If you taste the heavenly gift and then turn away you are in worse shape than before.
  

Oh my, I must be in a terrible shape. 

butterbattle wrote:
What is this Door? If I start with the assumption that God exists, Jesus is the Messiah, and the Bible is infallible, then everything will make sense, and I will be able to find the diamonds. Isn't this what you're saying?

Fonzie wrote:
The only way to come to God and comprehend the Scriptures is by accepting Jesus.

Ah, so your answer is yes. The reason I think this religion is ridiculous is because I'm not analyzing it from the right angle. I must first have faith in Jesus Christ and accept Christianity as true and then everything will make sense. Once I already believe in it, then I will be looking at it from the right angle. Otherwise, I'm too biased. ¿Verdadero?

Quote:
Diamonds are the metaphor for "precious", "most valuable" - facets of Jesus.

And I can't see these diamonds unless I accept the Messiah as my Lord and Savior first. I can find wisdom in Socrates's philosophies as well. What makes Jesus's teachings better? What makes them different from any other parable?

Socrates may have said some true things but Socrates wasn't the "Word made flesh".  He wasn't the "Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world".  Socrates didn't provide the Sacrifice for the sins of the world.

butterbattle wrote:

 

Quote:
You are rejecting your false impression.

Cough. Exodus 21:20

 

God is the One who can say, "I can make another one just like you".  So He has all authority.  You seem to think God has to check with you on what He's doing, run it through your thinking, make sure it's ok with you.

 

 

butterbattle wrote:
Furthermore, don't I have to assume that I understand the Bible? After all, you also make the assumption that you understand the Bible, except you understand it as true. If I don't understand it, this means I should automatically believe in it? That doesn't make any sense either.
 

Fonzie wrote:
The Scriptures can produce faith.  You do have an honest part in this though.  While on earth Jesus ask certain people to follow Him - and they refused.  Some had their excuses; some had their heart set on other things.

Yuck! You're just playing dodgeball with my arguments like every other Christian. What would it take for you to actually respond to my stronger arguments?

 

Well in the first place, it would take stronger arguments.  You have never traveled this road and from where I stand you have not presented any arguments that even register.

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
"To your loss" - If the Word of God is true, which It is, you are missing out on the most important thing in life.
 

Arrg, go put a sock in your Pascal's Wager.

You're playing dodgeball with my arguments like every other Atheist.  What would it take for you to actually respond to my stronger arguments?

 

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
Why should you believe in Christ? 

Because you are a rebel and an insurrectionist - and Jesus is your most controversial choice. 

His is the most violent (spiritual) war with the most vicious opponent.  His is the only challenge that will satisfy you eternally

What are you talking about? Challenge? Satisfy? Controversial? I don't give a shit about any of those things.

 

I'm saying this is a real war you could get your teeth in.  This is all logical and makes sense to me because I believe what "the Lord says" is true.  To you, however it is folly because you reject Jesus.  I'm not fighting you personally however.  I'm all for you repenting and believing the gospel.  It just seems to you like I'm your enemy.  I want your good, but I respect your right to choose your own way.  We're just communicating from two different perspectives - belief and unbelief.

 

butterbattle wrote:

 

Can you comprehend the idea that my political and religious positions are based on logic and reason? 

I believe that you believe that.  I just don't buy the logic and reason of unbelief.

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
Would you say "pang of conscience" is a "feeling"?

What is a conscience???

Conscience is a part of man's spiritual nature, the light within that enables a man to search that he is thinking and why, his purposes, his rights and wrongs. 

Conscience can have sores and sore spots and brands, but the good news is it can be all opened and healed in the blood of Jesus.

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
Because I'm talking about something different and unchanging - unlike feeling.

You're confusing feeling and conviction.

It's just semantics on that.

butterbattle wrote:

 

Quote:
I know it's profitable because I'm living in the house built by the wisdom of Christ, established by understanding, and decorated by knowledge. 

It's a cool house and I'm enjoying it.

 

 

Why do you have to use a metaphor? Just explicitly state that it's an emotional crutch because that's you're really saying anyways.

The reason I have to use a metaphor is because you don't know what I'm talking about, as evidenced by "what is conscience"?  I'm not trying to keep you out with metaphors I'm trying to ramp you in.

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
I agree and I don't condemn them.

The Bible does.

This answer you gave was about eating shellfish wasn't it.  Good news on all that - Christ declared all foods clean.  Jesus fulfilled the law - like a marriage fulfills the engagement.  The division between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place - where the High Priest could only go once a year - was torn from top to bottom when Jesus died on the cross.

Access to God is open to all now in Christ.  In Christ we are all now priests.  We are all anointed.

In other words, things have changed from the shellfish era.  You are looking at the Law of Moses.  Now we are in the era of the Law of Grace and Truth in Christ.  You can eat anything but blood.  But there are a lot of things that I don't want to eat anyway.  I prefer pizza and Mexican.

 

butterbattle wrote:

 

 

Quote:
I'm looking here at your opinion of God and I'm looking at what God has done.

Now you're appealing to ethos? 

I'm anchored in faith in God and you're using any stick to beat a dog.

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
Some things He has done are not completely explained.  Enough is explained for me to live comfortably with the mysteries. You ignore great things that are simple to understand and clear - to rather focus on your excuse.  Why is this?
 

Oh Allah, I hate this argument. Stop begging the question!

Is this supposed to represent an answer to my question?

Quote:
(it's promised in Scripture, thus no one will ever be able to say before the universe that they cried out to God for insight and understanding and He didn't give it).
butterbattle wrote:

What happens if I do it? 

At that point when you see you were totally wrong about Jesus you won't be asking that.

butterbattle wrote:
 

 

Quote:
When John the Baptist was preparing the way, he preached repentance.  Some don't want to do that first step - thus they don't have that much desire to find God in Christ.

Ugh, can't you make even one coherent, logical argument? Please?

If you are going to bring in new good stuff you're going to have to throw the bad stuff out to make room. 

butterbattle wrote:

 

 

Quote:
Some might have to get off their own throne and humble themselves before God.

Secular humanism. FTW!

 

This is a turn in the road you are not willing to take - as stated.

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
There's nothing false about this.

Except for the whole thing.

.....As the paperclip hits the anvil.......

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
A man can see he is not God.
 

Well, I'm not Jehovah, but I AM GOD AS YOU. (lol)

 

I'm supposed to act like you are putting thought into your answers?

butterbattle wrote:

 

Quote:
The Scriptures say there is no other Name in heaven or on earth by which man can be saved.
 

Well, my scriptures say there is no other name in heaven or on earth by which man can be saved except the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Of course, it's completely your choice. You can choose to believe or not believe. However, His Noodleliness really hopes that you'll believe because if you don't, you'll be cast into Pastafarianism hell, where they only have American beer and the strippers have VDs.

Clever

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
It also says the things you mention - things men might regard as "good" are filthy rags and a few pesos before God.  

Our own righteousness won't hold up before God.  We have to humble ourselves and accept the Righteousness of God - which is Christ's death.

*yawn*

It's slipping out that you don't believe Jesus is Lord. 

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
That is the gospel which you reject, which you could have if you wanted.

This is ludicrous. Whether or not I want to believe it is irrelevant. It simply depends on whether this gospel can logically establish its validity to the intellectual community. I don't give a shit what I WANT 2+2 to equal, only what it actually equals, which is four. 

The intellectual community which you are representing here doesn't move me, so I can understand how you react to Jesus and the Scriptures. 

Maybe you can understand how I regard the intellectual community concerning these things. 

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
Instead you want to put confidence in "goodness" - or in the lie that God doesn't exist.

Begging the question.

I want to remind you that "cruise control" doesn't mean you can go to the back of the van and get a drink.

butterbattle wrote:

 

Quote:
I don't think you are capable of describing things from God's perspective.  Neither was Job.

Oh, but YOU can.

No but I believe Job showed what it's like to be in the presence of God and shut up.

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
Just like Job you couldn't answer even one of God's questions.
 

I feel like you're using Star Wars to teach me physics.

I want to congratulate you on this metaphor.  You expressed yourself pretty well here and from the perspective you are in.  I'm not where you are, but I can understand how you are thinking on this.  I like that.

butterbattle wrote:

 

Quote:
You need a less glorious view of yourself and your questions.

I need a less glorious view of my questions? This is very telling.

Hello!....Hello!....

 

butterbattle wrote:

 

Quote:
No, this is a common mistake man makes - to try to carnalize spiritual things. 

In other words, we tend to try to approach spiritual things in the worldly sense - such as tying them to our "feelings".

But you haven't even proven that there's a difference.

 

No, because you are wanting me to approach spiritual things with worldly proof.

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
An old cathedral with high ceiling, old beams and pews, colored windows, flickering candles, sweet music might make a lot of people think they are having religious thoughts.

But the Scriptures would have us "lock on" to Jesus - Who is the same yesterday, today and forever - through faith.

 

Uuuuhh, and the difference is???

The difference is spiritual eyesight - faith.  We see these things through the eyes of faith.  Jesus and God bring our spiritual nature back to life and healthy in Christ.  Our blindness and spiritual leprosy are healed and we can see.  It's a struggle, it's a war, but we are holding on to the Sword of the Word of God and Jesus through the full assurance of faith.

butterbattle wrote:

 

Quote:
In other words, we can have an unchanging relationship with the Living Christ through our spirit and the gift of the Holy Spirit in us - seen clearer and clearer through the eyes of faith.

You haven't actually explained..........anything.

You haven't cast any doubt on anything.

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
This "spiritual life" has to be brought alive - from death to life by us being "born again" in Christ, by the water and the Spirit.  Then, it (the gift of grace) needs to be maintained.
 

I've already experienced and studied enough of Christianity to know these things. I don't need Theology 101.

Being wise in your own eyes doesn't show wisdom.

[guote=butterbattle]

 

Quote:
Fire needs not only to be sparked and fanned into life but fed - with the Word of God and applied spiritual experience.  You learn from the athlete that important things take dedication and focus and perseverance.

*sigh* This is getting nowhere.

Where do you want to go?

 

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
You looked at the idea, turned away, and now think you are qualified to regard it as bogus?  That isn't reasonable to me.
 

Uuuuuuhhh, non sequitur, much?

Right, iit was a "non starter" for you.

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
Take another look today.  Today is the day of salvation.

Hahaha.

You are making it the "day of entertainment"?

 

butterbattle wrote:

 

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." -Marcus Aurelius

 

MARCUS AURELIUS - NOUN - EMPEROR OF ROME nephew and son-in-law and adoptive son of Antonius Pius; Stoic philosopher; the decline of the Roman Empire began under Marcus Aurelius (121-180)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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darth_josh wrote:Fonzie

darth_josh wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

I'm out.

If the answer to every question is 'faith' then why bother asking for our 'reasons' for our lack of it?

Faith is not the focus (not faith in faith).  Faith is spiritual eyesight.  The focus is on the living Christ.  Through the eyes of faith one can see the present and living Christ.  The focus is not on the eyes but what the eyes see.

Your eyes don't see Christ.  You don't have faith.

Thanks for the compliment.

I think sharing the truth honestly as one sees it is a friendly thing if done respectfully in the right place and way - don't you?

darth_josh wrote:

See you next Sunday for your weekly visit to remind yourself of your faith.

Everything reminds me of the reality of Christ and the truth of the Word of God - not the least of which is you guys.

 

 

 

 


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

No one is born a theist. Theism is a process of indoctrination.

 

Of course the term "indoctrination" characterizes what is taught as a lie. 

I view atheism as indoctrination - a denial of the obvious - and theism as acceptance of the reality of God's glory as displayed in His creation.

But He didn't just wind it up and leave - He sent His Son to redeem it and bring the ones to Himself that accept the gift of grace in His Son.

If people were born with a belief in God, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, reality stands against your view.

The bible explains that to a thinking person.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

[quote

And I can just as easily paraphrase John 3:16 to "For God so loved the world that he sacrificed Himself to Himself so He could change a rule He made".

You can get the feel for what God did if you read about Abraham's following the instructions to go sacrifice his son Isaac on the mountain.  God had an angel stop him but Abraham was going to do it - he was confident God could bring Isaac back to life, so, in effect he received him as if back from the dead through faith. God didn't stop Himself however.  In order for Jesus to save those of us who believe He couldn't save Himself.

 


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Proper Gander wrote:Fonzie

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
In order to take that confident a stand you have to have faith in something.

No, what I need is enough evidence to support my position, and a lack of evidence for theirs, or even better, evidence that their position is false. If I didn't have evidence for something I wouldn't believe it in the first place, so I wouldn't be confident at all if it came down to faith.

 

In order to take that confident a stand you have to have faith in something - as you say again.

Proper Gander wrote:

Quote:
Would you say the thought of eternity is in your mind - or are you like the cattle in the truck on the way to the slaughterhouse where Temple Grandin the famous autistic has designed it so that even there mercifully they don't anticipate what's coming?

Huh? Either you stop talking in riddles, or you'll have to supply me with the decryption codes. Once again I fail to understand you.

We're not like cattle that don't know they're going to die.  We know - we can prepare.  We long for something more than this life in this world.  It's there for us in Christ.

 


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daedalus wrote:Fonzie

daedalus wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

You have an ever so slight way of changing what I said.

How so?

Quote:
These things are recognizable:  heart, mind, spirit - and the Word of God, the Mind and Heart of God revealed to us by the Spirit of God through the Scriptures and the gift of the Spirit of God in the "born again" believer.
Only in a believer?  that seems awfully lucky for the person who believes all that stuff already!  It certainly isn't recognizable to most people on Earth.

Membership does have its advantages.  The Scriptures are living and active, sharper than a two edged sword, able to separate bone and marrow, discern the secrets of the heart, etc. 

This is available to you - you are just depriving yourself of it.  You are your own worst enemy.

daedalus wrote:

Quote:
Also, yes, there is the spirit of Satan and his demonic spirits.
And, according to your religion, he is more powerful than you and would be able to fool you easily.  Convince me you aren't a follower of Satan, please.

 

 

Sorry, I don't have the power to convince you of anything.  But I would answer that this way:  sheep are most helpless, dependent and defenseless - but there are a lot of sheep on the earth.  There's a reason for that: shepherds.  I am protected from Satan's power by staying close to my Shepherd. 

 

daedalus wrote:

 

Quote:
Jesus has brought me from death to life in Him.  I discern these things mentioned above.

My will is steward of this earthly real estate and I have decided that when it comes to a choice between what thought is in my mind versus what thought is in the Word of God - there is no contest.  I trust the Word of God more than any of my thoughts.

The scenario of all this is a war zone, and there has been spiritual violence in the past among these - and casualties.  And I am on guard ready for more violence if necessary. 

Plans don't always work as smoothly as planned in war and seeing through the confusion you describe has been a struggle.  Fortunately I discern a Shepherd, a Captain leading me in this battle.  The intensity has been very high at times - examining the very things you mentioned, even being blindsided by them.

As far as ignorance; who is truly ignorant but the man who forgets his God? 

Wisdom may be misrepresented to you as clever wording.  Jesus didn't withhold the bread of life by hiding it in eloquence.  He Who the world was created through and in Whom it holds together humbled Himself even to death on a cross.

There is a violent war of discernment concerning these things within us and without.  The transforming power of faith in Jesus knows that if He says it - it's true.  That ends all the doubts and questionings and speculation of men.

With this power from Him I am brought to life that is life indeed and led on to life eternal.

daedalus wrote:

This is preaching and regurgitation of dogma.  Can you think for yourself?  Why not just quote the koran or whatever religious book you want and call it truth?

What does the word "preaching" mean to you anyway?  Is your definition of preaching anything I tell you that isn't what you already think?  How is it that you're not "preaching"?  I am talking to you trhtufully from the position of faith.  It is real and alive with me and in me.  I'm not regurgitating anything.  This is where I live. 

You don't have faith in me that I'm telling you the truth as I see it do you?  You think I'm "playing a part" and just repeating something that isn't real to me?  This is real to me and I've tried and proved it.

 

...oh, right... that' what you're doing... :-/

 Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov  

Yeah, and here's apoint about that.  It's interesting when you look at this from the view of who gets the glory.  As explained by the Scriptures, one of man's big problems is that he wants the glory instead of God.  That's where the resentment comes in and the man thinks he has to have a hand in it.  His pride brings him low.


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

No one is born a theist. Theism is a process of indoctrination.

 

Of course the term "indoctrination" characterizes what is taught as a lie. 

I view atheism as indoctrination - a denial of the obvious - and theism as acceptance of the reality of God's glory as displayed in His creation.

But He didn't just wind it up and leave - He sent His Son to redeem it and bring the ones to Himself that accept the gift of grace in His Son.

If people were born with a belief in God, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, reality stands against your view.

The bible explains that to a thinking person.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

[quote

And I can just as easily paraphrase John 3:16 to "For God so loved the world that he sacrificed Himself to Himself so He could change a rule He made".

You can get the feel for what God did if you read about Abraham's following the instructions to go sacrifice his son Isaac on the mountain.  God had an angel stop him but Abraham was going to do it - he was confident God could bring Isaac back to life, so, in effect he received him as if back from the dead through faith. God didn't stop Himself however.  In order for Jesus to save those of us who believe He couldn't save Himself.

 

1. Really? What part of theism is innate? Where does the Bible explain this? Or is this something I have to kiss Yahweh's tush for before I understand?

2. So the Canaanite god Yahweh had to have his demigod son (created by the gospel writers) take a three day holiday before he could be a demigod again? Wow, what a sacrifice (not). If you insist on both Yahweh and Yahshua being god, you have the problem of dead God raising Jesus (also dead God) back to life. The best some can do is the trinity, which is polytheism for those who don't wan to admit to it.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote:darth_josh

Fonzie wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

I'm out.

If the answer to every question is 'faith' then why bother asking for our 'reasons' for our lack of it?

Faith is not the focus (not faith in faith).  Faith is spiritual eyesight.  The focus is on the living Christ.  Through the eyes of faith one can see the present and living Christ.  The focus is not on the eyes but what the eyes see.

Your eyes don't see Christ.  You don't have faith.

Thanks for the compliment.

I think sharing the truth honestly as one sees it is a friendly thing if done respectfully in the right place and way - don't you?

darth_josh wrote:

See you next Sunday for your weekly visit to remind yourself of your faith.

Everything reminds me of the reality of Christ and the truth of the Word of God - not the least of which is you guys.

 

Really? Everything? Interesting. Certainly then that must include the things which we collectively/intersubjectively find to be warranting of the word 'bad'. Correct?

 

You mentioned respectful discussion concerning faith in jesus. I asked you simply, but I'll reword:

If the answer to every question is going to be faith in jesus then why bother asking for our reasons for our lack of it? Did you come here to inquire about atheism or to preach to atheists?

You did not answer the question, but instead broke into a sermon. I don't consider that respectful discussion. In fact, I find it almost patronizing.

I mentioned it before, but perhaps I should rephrase that point to give you a better chance of answering the question(s)...

Do you see how it is possible that we view your faith as harmful and our lack of it as beneficial?

What exactly motivates you to retain faith in jesus? Fear? Afterlife reward? What?

If this seems to be too direct it is due to trying for several Sundays now to get straight answers without sermons. We know already; you're happy to believe. We want to know why without getting flowery mumbo-jumbo.

 

 

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Fonzie wrote:Where do you

Fonzie wrote:
Where do you want to go?

1) I want you to state in plain and simple terms what your intention is for being here.

2) Why are you a Christian? To clarify, I want you discuss the line of inquiry that urged you to become a Christian, not the tenets of your religion.

3) Explain what you want from me and, perhaps, the RRS community in general.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Fonzie wrote:Proper Gander

Fonzie wrote:

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
In order to take that confident a stand you have to have faith in something.

No, what I need is enough evidence to support my position, and a lack of evidence for theirs, or even better, evidence that their position is false. If I didn't have evidence for something I wouldn't believe it in the first place, so I wouldn't be confident at all if it came down to faith.

 

In order to take that confident a stand you have to have faith in something - as you say again.

No, I did not say that. I said the exact opposite - I can be that confident because I do not rely on faith. If you utter this same assertion again, even though I've repeatedly shown it to be false, I'm done with you.

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

Quote:
Would you say the thought of eternity is in your mind - or are you like the cattle in the truck on the way to the slaughterhouse where Temple Grandin the famous autistic has designed it so that even there mercifully they don't anticipate what's coming?

Huh? Either you stop talking in riddles, or you'll have to supply me with the decryption codes. Once again I fail to understand you.

We're not like cattle that don't know they're going to die.  We know - we can prepare.  We long for something more than this life in this world.  It's there for us in Christ.

 

Speak for yourself. I, myself, prefer to die and simply cease to exist than to exist for an eternity. Reincarnation, on the other hand, is kind of interesting, but your Christ doesn't offer it. Oh, and simply believing in something is not enough to make it true, so even if you believe you do, you're not actually getting anything by following Jesus as far as I can see.

"Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much fraternizing with the enemy."


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

I'm out.

If the answer to every question is 'faith' then why bother asking for our 'reasons' for our lack of it?

They don't really consider them reasons - more like excuses.

"Oh, that nasty thinking thing. Why don't you give that up and go with God?"

THINKING - NASTY OR NO  -

jc, old buddy, old pal-

From my experience and perspective the good news of salvation in Jesus enhances thinking. 

Isn't it better to think in an atmosphere of peace of mind and full assurance?

I'm not concerned about the past nor anxious about the future.  I'm putting my strength into today and focused on it.  I'm not afraid of death and have hopes that see and extend beyond that horizon. 

This is all enabled by the great hold faith has on the Sword of the Word of God. 

What doubt can't be killed by that double edged sword?

Today my conscience is clear and my heart is lifted with joy because this moment I am in fellowship with the Living God in Christ.  I hold tight on things the Lord says, like, "I will never leave or forsake you". 

My spirit burns bright fed by the anointing oil of the Holy Spirit. 

My mind is well stocked with gold of Scripture.  I am content and happy with my work.  I am at peace with all men including you and myself.  I am at rest but highly motivated to work.

I am secure and at peace in Christ - Who is the same yesterday and today and forever - but on guard and aware of danger, ready to draw the Sword of the Word of God.

I am happy with my lovely wife, my crown.  Troubles and discouragements are to me a spiritual workout gym, a weight to lift and get stronger.  I totally accept and embrace my lot and today, the moment.  The presence of Christ is always with me, lifting me up.

Where is it that I am having a problem in my thinking - and where is it that you are profiting from thinking that is unknown to me? 

 

 

 

Interesting - I have all the positive things you point to (peace of mind, full assurance, lack of worry for present and future, happiness in a equal relationship with my wife) without having to worship the Canaanite gods that you do.

Why do you need them?

JCGADFLY,

I understand what you're saying.  When I was on "dial up" I heard the statement several times, "when you go on broadband you'll never go b ack", but I didn't believe it.  I didn't see much wrong with dial up.  I was satisfied with it at the time. 

What we are talking about here however is like asking the butterfly if he wants to "go back".... and the worm if he wants "to become..."

 


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BobSpence1 wrote:Fonzie

BobSpence1 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:


What makes Jesus any better than Mohammed, Buddha, Vishnu, etc, etc.?


Bob - You'll have to decide for yourself, but for me it's the difference between real and fake.

But that is the point, what is your criterion for deciding between real and fake?
There is absolutely no way for you to compare the 'authenticity' of your experience is more 'real' than some other person's internal confidence in the reality of theirs, since you do not have access to their mind.

 

BobSpence1,

I have my present state of spiritual health to compare to my former state of spiritual sickness - thus I recommend the Physician.

I observe others' similar experience and guard my heart to make honest evaluation of what I see and know, admitting - as you mention - I could be fooled.

We do have words to communicate our experiences.  I know there are a lot of problems with shadings of words, perspective,  and communication in general, but it is possible to get somewhere with honest effort.  I have experienced some success accessing others' reality to some degree of understanding - I think - which is all you can ask of communication here on earth among pollution and weeds and distraction.

The Scriptures flow in to this inner spiritual reality - alive, as "God Breathed", testifying along with my spirit that the Spirit of God is opening them to me.  I find them in harmony with themselves and proven true in practice.  They spotlight the "Living Word", Jesus also being with me in Spirit, and in fellowship with others having tghe same Spirit in them.  There is no fellowship that even starts to be comparable to the fellowship in Christ that I have found.

The Holy Spirit has come and not only lit my spiritual house brightly - getting brighter - but is lighting up God's thoughts to me.  I am able to spiritually discern things from the Word of God.  I'm not saying I can't be tricked but you ask about "better". 

I would be interested in hearing about your spiritual experience and the evidences of it and how it is developing and getting better and better, how it works, where it is going, etc.

BobSpence1 wrote:

If you can accept that others can be deeply sincere in their conviction, yet mistaken, and admit that it is just a matter of personal judgement, then you admit you could be the one who is in error.

If you won't concede that you could be wrong, then you ARE either dishonest or deluded.

 

BobSpence1,

Yes I could be in error - but I would compare it to sticking a screwdriver in a socket when I was a kid in '47 - which I did. 

I started wiring houses back in '67 and have wired several residences.  Now, you are saying to me, "admit you could be wrong" (wrong in this comparison saying that electricity is a thing that needs to be carefully dealt with).

So I'm saying I could be wrong - but I advise you to not stick your screwdriver in that socket.  I'm confident I'm right.  I've tried it - true, there's mystery about electricity - but I'm telling you the truth as I see it.  It's real even though you can't see it.  You want it working for you - not against you.




BobSpence1 wrote:


    You didn't really address the point that many other people have felt just as strongly about Jesus as you appear to now, and found eventually that it DOES NOT 'work for them', ultimately. Maybe they value truth over comforting fiction...


From my perspective you are trying to give examples of failure to disprove success.


You still have no way to know that that is in fact the case, rather than the other possibilty that you are the one mired in delusion, and have yet to encounter the experience which opens your eyes.
Someone who has been through the process has extra experience that you haven't, so is in a better position to judge.
Simply saying they have not had a genuine experience, or are on the wrong path, will not help, since there is no way, without external oobjective evidence, ie not just internal experience, to know who is closer to the truth.

 

BobSpence1,

I think I have answered this in the last post.  If there is something I have missed show me what it is.  I'm not in any way trying to dodge this question - in fact these questions have been a part of my development in spiritual things.  It's a process. 

Development in the freedom of the Spirit is like having a Master who knows how to manage servants.  He tells you what He wants, then leaves you a measure of freedom in trust to do it.  God is the best at it and has been very patient with my failings. 

I have never given up however, and I don't care to experience that. 

Why would I want to turn away from ONE who has brought me from death to life in Christ - why would I want to turn back to death?  Can you explain how a person can taste the Heavenly Gift and turn back like a dog to its vomit?  Just because I haven't had that experience doesn't mean I need to - to express horror at it.

 


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Fonzie wrote:I understand

Fonzie wrote:

I understand what you're saying.  When I was on "dial up" I heard the statement several times, "when you go on broadband you'll never go b ack", but I didn't believe it.  I didn't see much wrong with dial up.  I was satisfied with it at the time. 

What we are talking about here however is like asking the butterfly if he wants to "go back".... and the worm if he wants "to become..."

 

Here is a saying for ya. " Having once thrown off the enslaving shackles of the delusion called religion, I feel nothing but disgust for the slaves that urge me to reapply those reason oppressing chains. " ___ Me

It takes a village to raise an idiot.

Save a tree, eat a vegetarian.

Sometimes " The Majority " only means that all the fools are on the same side.


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

No one is born a theist. Theism is a process of indoctrination.

 

Of course the term "indoctrination" characterizes what is taught as a lie. 

I view atheism as indoctrination - a denial of the obvious - and theism as acceptance of the reality of God's glory as displayed in His creation.

But He didn't just wind it up and leave - He sent His Son to redeem it and bring the ones to Himself that accept the gift of grace in His Son.

If people were born with a belief in God, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, reality stands against your view.

The bible explains that to a thinking person.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

[quote

And I can just as easily paraphrase John 3:16 to "For God so loved the world that he sacrificed Himself to Himself so He could change a rule He made".

You can get the feel for what God did if you read about Abraham's following the instructions to go sacrifice his son Isaac on the mountain.  God had an angel stop him but Abraham was going to do it - he was confident God could bring Isaac back to life, so, in effect he received him as if back from the dead through faith. God didn't stop Himself however.  In order for Jesus to save those of us who believe He couldn't save Himself.

 

 

1. Really? What part of theism is innate? Where does the Bible explain this? Or is this something I have to kiss Yahweh's tush for before I understand?

 

jcgadfly,

It would be possible for a child to have unknown biological parents then eventually find them.  Tjhe unknown relationship would be innate.  God is our Father, our Maker, though unknown to many. 

In Romans the first it says..."ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature, namely His eternal power and deity has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.  So they are without excuse..."

God loves even His enemies.  He is merciful therefore to be feared.

As far as understanding - the gospel is so simple a child can understand it.  Jesus came and lived a perfect Life, died and paid the price for our sins with His blood, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day and has an Indestructable Life.  The Power that raised Him from the dead is at work in those who believe in Him.  We give ourselves to die in the waters of believer's baptism and are raised to walk in a new life of freedom in the Lord with the anointing of the Gift of the Spirit. 

The biggest problem is probably that it is too easy to understand.  Man wants to get his hand in it, his glory.  The Glory is all God's however.  It's a big problem for man to humble himself to that fact and wholeheartedly let God have the throne rather than himself.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

 

 

2. So the Canaanite god Yahweh had to have his demigod son (created by the gospel writers) take a three day holiday before he could be a demigod again? Wow, what a sacrifice (not). If you insist on both Yahweh and Yahshua being god, you have the problem of dead God raising Jesus (also dead God) back to life. The best some can do is the trinity, which is polytheism for those who don't wan to admit to it.

 

Yes, I understand you don't believe the gospel and work at mocking Jesus and God.  I don't hold it against you - and I think you could totally change some day.  It's possible.

Who would have thought that Saul would have become a devoted follower of Christ and the Holy Spirit would write a large part of the New Testament through him.

Many are invited to the Marriage Feast.  Many have excuses as you seem to - and won't come.


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darth_josh wrote:Fonzie

darth_josh wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

I'm out.

If the answer to every question is 'faith' then why bother asking for our 'reasons' for our lack of it?

Faith is not the focus (not faith in faith).  Faith is spiritual eyesight.  The focus is on the living Christ.  Through the eyes of faith one can see the present and living Christ.  The focus is not on the eyes but what the eyes see.

Your eyes don't see Christ.  You don't have faith.

Thanks for the compliment.

I think sharing the truth honestly as one sees it is a friendly thing if done respectfully in the right place and way - don't you?

darth_josh wrote:

See you next Sunday for your weekly visit to remind yourself of your faith.

Everything reminds me of the reality of Christ and the truth of the Word of God - not the least of which is you guys.

 

Really? Everything? Interesting. Certainly then that must include the things which we collectively/intersubjectively find to be warranting of the word 'bad'. Correct?

 

darth_josh,

The Lord has made everything for its purpose, including evil - and evil forces.

 

darth_josh wrote:

You mentioned respectful discussion concerning faith in jesus. I asked you simply, but I'll reword:

If the answer to every question is going to be faith in jesus then why bother asking for our reasons for our lack of it? Did you come here to inquire about atheism or to preach to atheists?

 

As I stated from the first - I noticed that several said walking by faith in Jesus didn't work for them.  I am saying it does for me.

 

darth_josh wrote:

You did not answer the question, but instead broke into a sermon. I don't consider that respectful discussion. In fact, I find it almost patronizing.

 

Again, as I stated from the first I noticed that several have said in different ways that they tried walking by faith in Jesus and it didn't eventually work for them.  It does for me and is getting better and better with no limit in sight. 

What does the word "sermon" mean to you?  Is it a name for something you don't want to hear? 

 

darth_josh wrote:

I mentioned it before, but perhaps I should rephrase that point to give you a better chance of answering the question(s)...

 

From the start I have said I noticed that several on this forum have said that they have tried walking by faith in Jesus, following the Bible, being reborn in Christ and it ended up not working for them.  I am saying it does for me.  I will admit I have trouble seeing why it doesn't work for everybody. 

darth_josh wrote:

Do you see how it is possible that we view your faith as harmful and our lack of it as beneficial?

 

I see how it is possible since there are so many views.  It is possible to have the wrong view, right?

darth_josh wrote:

What exactly motivates you to retain faith in jesus? Fear? Afterlife reward? What?

What motivates me is love of Christ as He has revealed Himself in His Life, His Death, and the joy of having a living relationship with Christ and God and the Holy Spirit through their dwelling in me through faith.

darth_josh wrote:

 

If this seems to be too direct it is due to trying for several Sundays now to get straight answers without sermons. We know already; you're happy to believe. We want to know why without getting flowery mumbo-jumbo.

It doesn't seem too direct.  It's definitely  not hard for you to understand.  It's so simple it irritates you.


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butterbattle wrote:Fonzie

butterbattle wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Where do you want to go?

1) I want you to state in plain and simple terms what your intention is for being here.

 

From the start it is as I have said.  I have seen it stated different ways that members of your forum have tried walking by faith in Jesus and ended up quitting and discounting life in Christ as worthless.  I have and am having the opposite experience.  My experience is that Christ, the gospel, the Scriptures are all proving themselves true more and more every day.

butterbattle wrote:

2) Why are you a Christian? To clarify, I want you discuss the line of inquiry that urged you to become a Christian, not the tenets of your religion.

I was around other Christians and saw something at work in them that I had not experienced or known - and I wanted it.  I experienced an emptiness in my life and my experience in the world.  They were helpful and proved to be friends.

I started reading the Bible and at a certain point it all hit me like lightning as true.  I was convicted that I was lost, in sin, and alienated from God - yet at the same time the Way of forgiveness through the grace (gift) of God in Christ was freely open to me.

I was born again that same day, born of the water and the Spirit and things turned around and started going the other direction.  There has been steady improvement and increasing joy and security and understanding ever since - that has been for about 45 years.

darth_josh}

 

3) Explain what you want from me and, perhaps, the RRS community in general.

[/quote wrote:

 

My understanding is that you invite believers to com on and discuss their faith with you.  I think the statement is, "believe in God?  We can fix that".  I am here by invitation.  I am trying to answer your questions honestly. 

I'm not playing a role or dodging your questions, it's just that we are honestly coming from two different realms.  Obviously I believe I am right or I would be a liar.  So I would characterize what is happening as this: we are wrestling with ideas in a respectful way. 

I am arguing my side as the right one honestly and openly - not supporting something alien to me.  I am not repeating a dogma.  I have tried these things and proven them.  The fact that I was an easily bored experimenter is one reason I tried things and didn't find what I was looking for in the world or anywhere except Jesus.

 


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Proper Gander wrote:Fonzie

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
In order to take that confident a stand you have to have faith in something.

No, what I need is enough evidence to support my position, and a lack of evidence for theirs, or even better, evidence that their position is false. If I didn't have evidence for something I wouldn't believe it in the first place, so I wouldn't be confident at all if it came down to faith.

 

In order to take that confident a stand you have to have faith in something - as you say again.

No, I did not say that. I said the exact opposite - I can be that confident because I do not rely on faith. If you utter this same assertion again, even though I've repeatedly shown it to be false, I'm done with you.

Fonzie wrote:
Proper Gander wrote:

Quote:
Would you say the thought of eternity is in your mind - or are you like the cattle in the truck on the way to the slaughterhouse where Temple Grandin the famous autistic has designed it so that even there mercifully they don't anticipate what's coming?

Huh? Either you stop talking in riddles, or you'll have to supply me with the decryption codes. Once again I fail to understand you.

We're not like cattle that don't know they're going to die.  We know - we can prepare.  We long for something more than this life in this world.  It's there for us in Christ.

 

Speak for yourself. I, myself, prefer to die and simply cease to exist than to exist for an eternity. Reincarnation, on the other hand, is kind of interesting, but your Christ doesn't offer it. Oh, and simply believing in something is not enough to make it true, so even if you believe you do, you're not actually getting anything by following Jesus as far as I can see.

 

ProperGander,

You have to admit that simply NOT believing something is true doesn't make it untrue either.

What if it is true that you HAVE to exist somewhere for eternity? 

I can understand why the good news of eternal life in Christ seems like a scam - actually far greater than the emails that promise a multimillion inheritance from a stranger.  It does seem too god to be true, however I have no doubt the gospel of Christ is true and offer my lack of doubt.

Proper Gander wrote:

Ni dieu ni maitre 

  RATHER - A GREAT GOD AND THE BEST MASTER!


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Fonzie,

I understand the happiness you find in jesus, and would like to invite you to enjoy the greater happiness that comes from believing in Techno-Elvis.

Faith in Techno-Elvis works for me.  I love the Techno-Elvis story and believe all of it -- though there is peanut butter.  There is peanut butter everywhere though, right?

As I've discovered through my personal experience, faith in jesus simply prepares you for the infinitely greater faith in Techno-Elvis. I am an incredibly happy believer in Techno-Elvis.  The happiness I found in jesus gained 80 pounds and grew rhinestones when I accepted Techno-Elvis.

I know I can't make you believe in the Techno-Elvis, and I won't try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience.

Fonzie wrote:


...I understand what you're saying.  When I was on "dial up" I heard the statement several times, "when you go on broadband you'll never go b ack", but I didn't believe it.  I didn't see much wrong with dial up.  I was satisfied with it at the time.


I agree.  I was once satisfied with jesus and didn't believe that I could be any happier by accepting Techno-Elvis.  Now that I have, I would never go back to jesus, and neither would you.

Fonzie wrote:

I have my present state of spiritual health to compare to my former state of spiritual sickness - thus I recommend the Physician.

If jesus brings spiritual health, Techno-Elvis brings spiritual steroids -- without the simple carbs or testicular shrinkage -- thus I recommend the Techno-Elvis.

 

So do you think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me?

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


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Fonzie wrote:My experience

Fonzie wrote:
My experience is that Christ, the gospel, the Scriptures are all proving themselves true more and more every day.

How? 

Quote:
I was around other Christians and saw something at work in them that I had not experienced or known - and I wanted it.
 

What?

Quote:
I experienced an emptiness in my life and my experience in the world.  They were helpful and proved to be friends.

What emptiness?

Quote:
I started reading the Bible and at a certain point it all hit me like lightning as true.  I was convicted that I was lost, in sin, and alienated from God - yet at the same time the Way of forgiveness through the grace (gift) of God in Christ was freely open to me.

I'm afraid that from my perspective, what you've said here isn't any different than what a Muslim informs me about the Koran or what a LDS member tells me about the Book of Mormon. Your "conviction," how is it proof of anything? 

Quote:
I was born again that same day, born of the water and the Spirit and things turned around and started going the other direction.
 

What does that mean?

Quote:
There has been steady improvement and increasing joy and security and understanding ever since - that has been for about 45 years.

Really? In what way? How do you know it's because of Christianity? 

Quote:
it's just that we are honestly coming from two different realms.
 

I agree.

Quote:
I have tried these things and proven them.

How?

Quote:
The fact that I was an easily bored experimenter is one reason I tried things and didn't find what I was looking for in the world or anywhere except Jesus.

Easily bored experimenter? How do you know "Jesus" is what you were looking for? What were you looking for?

 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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I figure since I more than

I figure since I more than likely have until next week then I'll load this one up. If it's too much then tell me and I'll take it back a notch. It may seem disjointed, but there are sections that can be addressed alone.

 

Fonzie wrote:

 

darth_josh wrote:

You mentioned respectful discussion concerning faith in jesus. I asked you simply, but I'll reword:

If the answer to every question is going to be faith in jesus then why bother asking for our reasons for our lack of it? Did you come here to inquire about atheism or to preach to atheists?

 

As I stated from the first - I noticed that several said walking by faith in Jesus didn't work for them.  I am saying it does for me.

 

So, the answer to the question is that you came here to preach to atheists.

Hmmm. Go right ahead.

It seems that if your goal were to spread peace through the faith in jesus you profess then there would not be a slight building of frustration on either sides part. However, this problem was apparent a long time ago. Thus the creation of this particular forum on the boards.

It seems that the harder you push to preach sermons about yourself and your ideology, the closer to the truth as to why you believe will become apparent not only to us but to you as well.

The self-loathing nature of alleged believers is something I have yet to definitively qualify as an intrinsic trait to this ideology. Perhaps because it is not as evident in other adherents of christianity as it is in your words here.

Such statements as:

Fonzie wrote:

I have my present state of spiritual health to compare to my former state of spiritual sickness - thus I recommend the Physician.

I observe others' similar experience and guard my heart to make honest evaluation of what I see and know, admitting - as you mention - I could be fooled.

Could the same 'litmus test' be applicable in reference to you and this thread?

Did you have to guard your heart before creating this thread? If so, then how could we operate under the honesty approach?

Personally, an honest truthful examination does not try to make things fit into our ideology.

For instance, your response to my question concerning 'everything including the 'bad' simply relies upon the pat answer of:

Fonzie wrote:

The Lord has made everything for its purpose, including evil - and evil forces.

Which is (and I think you see this) a non-arguable answer for you. This is just the parroting of dogma. I want to know why. Why is there 'bad'? Is it to make you feel better? How does it justify your belief?

Do bad things happen to others in order for you to thank your god that it isn't you?

Your fond of metaphor...

Isn't this like the economic stimulus check that makes you feel happy to get extra special treatment even though there is no way that it will change the whole economy?

Akin to your god on high saying: "Well, there is evil. I made it. But look at these kittens. And you're special."

What if... What if your idea of why something happens weren't contingent upon action by a supreme being?

I feel equally as joyful as you profess to be when I figure out a complex situation on my own devoid of faith in jesus that it all works out in the end. Every time.

Certainly, there is a statistical probability that problems work themselves out without my action. However, if the answer was faith then wouldn't I fail in those other times where it was ALL ME doing the fixing?

I think 'faith in jesus' gives you that 'way out' for blame and/or consequence. What do you think?

 

 

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Fonzie

Fonzie wrote:
 

ProperGander,

You have to admit that simply NOT believing something is true doesn't make it untrue either.

What if it is true that you HAVE to exist somewhere for eternity?

What if an invisible truck is about to hit you? Will you throw yourself in the mud to get out of its way?

It basically comes down to evidence. If you can't provide any, then I have no reason to fear your eternal existance scenario any more than I have to fear the invisible truck.

Fonzie wrote:
I can understand why the good news of eternal life in Christ seems like a scam - actually far greater than the emails that promise a multimillion inheritance from a stranger.  It does seem too god to be true, however I have no doubt the gospel of Christ is true and offer my lack of doubt.

I don't think you understand me correctly. An eternal life as portrayed by christianity is completely undesirable to me. It isn't that it sounds "too good to be true", it's that it's completely unfounded, goes against evidence and is pretty counter-intuitive anyway. Plus, it's an awful deal, and I wouldn't want it even if it was true. Thanks, but no thanks. I have no doubt the gospel of christ is false and offer my scepticism.

Fonzie wrote:
RATHER - A GREAT GOD AND THE BEST MASTER!

Ugh, no. Pretending for a second that he exist, he'd be a pretty incompetent god judging from the world situation, and I would never accept him as my master anyway. I'm a free man of a free country.

"Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much fraternizing with the enemy."


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

No one is born a theist. Theism is a process of indoctrination.

 

Of course the term "indoctrination" characterizes what is taught as a lie. 

I view atheism as indoctrination - a denial of the obvious - and theism as acceptance of the reality of God's glory as displayed in His creation.

But He didn't just wind it up and leave - He sent His Son to redeem it and bring the ones to Himself that accept the gift of grace in His Son.

If people were born with a belief in God, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, reality stands against your view.

The bible explains that to a thinking person.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

[quote

And I can just as easily paraphrase John 3:16 to "For God so loved the world that he sacrificed Himself to Himself so He could change a rule He made".

You can get the feel for what God did if you read about Abraham's following the instructions to go sacrifice his son Isaac on the mountain.  God had an angel stop him but Abraham was going to do it - he was confident God could bring Isaac back to life, so, in effect he received him as if back from the dead through faith. God didn't stop Himself however.  In order for Jesus to save those of us who believe He couldn't save Himself.

 

 

1. Really? What part of theism is innate? Where does the Bible explain this? Or is this something I have to kiss Yahweh's tush for before I understand?

 

jcgadfly,

It would be possible for a child to have unknown biological parents then eventually find them.  Tjhe unknown relationship would be innate.  God is our Father, our Maker, though unknown to many. 

In Romans the first it says..."ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature, namely His eternal power and deity has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.  So they are without excuse..."

God loves even His enemies.  He is merciful therefore to be feared.

As far as understanding - the gospel is so simple a child can understand it.  Jesus came and lived a perfect Life, died and paid the price for our sins with His blood, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day and has an Indestructable Life.  The Power that raised Him from the dead is at work in those who believe in Him.  We give ourselves to die in the waters of believer's baptism and are raised to walk in a new life of freedom in the Lord with the anointing of the Gift of the Spirit. 

The biggest problem is probably that it is too easy to understand.  Man wants to get his hand in it, his glory.  The Glory is all God's however.  It's a big problem for man to humble himself to that fact and wholeheartedly let God have the throne rather than himself.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

 

 

2. So the Canaanite god Yahweh had to have his demigod son (created by the gospel writers) take a three day holiday before he could be a demigod again? Wow, what a sacrifice (not). If you insist on both Yahweh and Yahshua being god, you have the problem of dead God raising Jesus (also dead God) back to life. The best some can do is the trinity, which is polytheism for those who don't wan to admit to it.

 

Yes, I understand you don't believe the gospel and work at mocking Jesus and God.  I don't hold it against you - and I think you could totally change some day.  It's possible.

Who would have thought that Saul would have become a devoted follower of Christ and the Holy Spirit would write a large part of the New Testament through him.

Many are invited to the Marriage Feast.  Many have excuses as you seem to - and won't come.

1. The parental relationship is a natural one. Belief in God is not natural - it's learned. Glad you dig it but you didn't have it from birth.

2. The gospel story you relate - "Jesus" can be replaced with several other gods purported to exhibit the same behavior.

3. I see you don't believe in the Gospel either - that's why you preach Paul instead of Jesus.

4. You wrote about the Christian friends you had - how much of your turn to Christianity was a natural need to fit in with their society?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Personally....

 Your faith is perfectly fine.  I don't care what you do.  Christians, Buddhists, Satanists, what have you.  Personally I just do not believe.  You have faith, I will not believe without evidence.  That's pretty much the basis of atheism.  I will not lecture you about my beliefs.  The people I hate are the ones that feel right at home attempting to convert me or lecture me about their religion.  STOP.  That is my take, and I believe that we (theists and atheists) can all live in harmony.

Evolution cannot be debated. 'Tis real.


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Jormungander wrote:Why is

Jormungander wrote:

Why is Fonzie's avatar a picture of a woman fellatiating a pot of some kind?

This is obscene. I really wish that I was the pot though.

 

eew... Why would anyone in their right mind want to be fellated by a fundie housewife?

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Fonzie wrote:You have to

Fonzie wrote:
You have to admit that simply NOT believing something is true doesn't make it untrue either.

What if it is true that you HAVE to exist somewhere for eternity?


Hm. I like asking "what if". But there are lots and lots of "what if" questions. What if there is actually an invisible monster under your bed who might grab you if you sleep without covering your ears with your blanket? You may not belief that the monster actually exists, but as you said... that does not, per say, make it untrue either (and besides, millions of children belief that there are monsters under their beds and they cannot áll be wrong, can they?)

Quote:
I can understand why the good news of eternal life in Christ seems like a scam - actually far greater than the emails that promise a multimillion inheritance from a stranger.  It does seem too god to be true, however I have no doubt the gospel of Christ is true and offer my lack of doubt.

Well, you do seem to be a happy camper, so I'd say, good for you and rock on for Jesus Eye-wink

But seriously, the important thing is that you seem to understand why other people doubt the truth of the gospel, and, I bet, will also understand why telling people how much you love Jesus will not, in and of itself convince those people of your truth. There máy be something that might convince some people though, and that is trying to, instead of preaching words, béing as much líke Jesus as you can: be compassionate, kind, forgiving, and basically try to make the world a bettter place. Ghandi once said that he liked Christ- but not christians, because, in his words "your christians are so unlike your christ".

And Ghandi, I think, was quite right there.

Oh, and the best thing about being compassionate, kind and forgiving is that it does not even require being religious- so you could, by setting an example, trick people into being like Jesus without even having to convert them, how cool is that Smiling


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Desdenova wrote:Fonzie

Desdenova wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

I understand what you're saying.  When I was on "dial up" I heard the statement several times, "when you go on broadband you'll never go b ack", but I didn't believe it.  I didn't see much wrong with dial up.  I was satisfied with it at the time. 

What we are talking about here however is like asking the butterfly if he wants to "go back".... and the worm if he wants "to become..."

 

Here is a saying for ya. " Having once thrown off the enslaving shackles of the delusion called religion, I feel nothing but disgust for the slaves that urge me to reapply those reason oppressing chains. " ___ Me

 

Walking by faith with the Living Christ is totally different than what you are addressing.  Sure, there are things the Master wants the servant to do - but He leaves a circle of freedom to develop with the Spirit of God written on the servant's heart...and staying with him every step. 

We have probably both experienced employers too involved - versus the employer that trusts you and lets you know what they want, giving you freedom to work.  God is bertter than the best master in all respects.  The "shackles" you have thrown off are false impressions in my experience.


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zarathustra wrote:Fonzie,I

zarathustra wrote:

Fonzie,

I understand the happiness you find in jesus, and would like to invite you to enjoy the greater happiness that comes from believing in Techno-Elvis.

Faith in Techno-Elvis works for me.  I love the Techno-Elvis story and believe all of it -- though there is peanut butter.  There is peanut butter everywhere though, right?

As I've discovered through my personal experience, faith in jesus simply prepares you for the infinitely greater faith in Techno-Elvis. I am an incredibly happy believer in Techno-Elvis.  The happiness I found in jesus gained 80 pounds and grew rhinestones when I accepted Techno-Elvis.

I know I can't make you believe in the Techno-Elvis, and I won't try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience.

Fonzie wrote:


...I understand what you're saying.  When I was on "dial up" I heard the statement several times, "when you go on broadband you'll never go b ack", but I didn't believe it.  I didn't see much wrong with dial up.  I was satisfied with it at the time.


I agree.  I was once satisfied with jesus and didn't believe that I could be any happier by accepting Techno-Elvis.  Now that I have, I would never go back to jesus, and neither would you.

Fonzie wrote:

I have my present state of spiritual health to compare to my former state of spiritual sickness - thus I recommend the Physician.

If jesus brings spiritual health, Techno-Elvis brings spiritual steroids -- without the simple carbs or testicular shrinkage -- thus I recommend the Techno-Elvis.

 

So do you think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me?

 

No, I think you have turned away from the Fountain of Living Water for a Chia Pet.

zarathustra wrote:
  There are no theists on operating tables. 

 

I'm not planning on being on any operating table - just dying like Moses.

 


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Fonzie wrote:Desdenova

Fonzie wrote:

Desdenova wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

I understand what you're saying.  When I was on "dial up" I heard the statement several times, "when you go on broadband you'll never go b ack", but I didn't believe it.  I didn't see much wrong with dial up.  I was satisfied with it at the time. 

What we are talking about here however is like asking the butterfly if he wants to "go back".... and the worm if he wants "to become..."

 

Here is a saying for ya. " Having once thrown off the enslaving shackles of the delusion called religion, I feel nothing but disgust for the slaves that urge me to reapply those reason oppressing chains. " ___ Me

 

Walking by faith with the Living Christ is totally different than what you are addressing.  Sure, there are things the Master wants the servant to do - but He leaves a circle of freedom to develop with the Spirit of God written on the servant's heart...and staying with him every step. 

We have probably both experienced employers too involved - versus the employer that trusts you and lets you know what they want, giving you freedom to work.  God is bertter than the best master in all respects.  The "shackles" you have thrown off are false impressions in my experience.

Particularly if you pick and choose what rules you want to follow - Christ's words get to be too much to ive by, you can always switch to Paul's - his are a lot easier to work with.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote:


Quote:
So do you think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me?


 No, I think you have turned away from the Fountain of Living Water for a Chia Pet.

As Techno-Elvis taught us, if the water is living, it must be contaminated with E. coli

The story of jesus' resurrection was simply to prepare us for the greater story of Elvis, who overdosed on drugs for our sake, then rose from the dead, and will one day return in glory to Graceland. 

Elvis' favorite fruit was the banana, which is of course the Atheist's Nightmare. 

Elvis has indeed planted seeds on my Chia Pet, and it has grown into a fluffy sheep.  I hope and pray you leave the lesser happiness of jesus behind and find the greater joy of being fleeced by Elvis.


Fonzie wrote:
zarathustra wrote:
  There are no theists on operating tables. 

I'm not planning on being on any operating table - just dying like Moses.

I agree.  For the theist that gets on the operating table admits that his god has failed him in his hour of need.

Do you also plan to write about your own death and burial as Moses did?

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


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butterbattle wrote:Fonzie

butterbattle wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
My experience is that Christ, the gospel, the Scriptures are all proving themselves true more and more every day.

How?

I'll just give three examples:

Jesus said, "a man's life doesn't consist in an abundance of possessions."  That's becoming more self-evident in my experience and observation.

Second, the Scripture says, "better is a dinner of herbs where love is than a fatted ox and hatred with it."  That experience proves more and more true.  I've had both experiences.

Third, the Spirit of Christ through Solomon said, "Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes?  There is more hope for a fool than for him."  That is proving more and more true as well. 

There are hundreds of ways the Scriptures prove themselves like this every day. 

butterbattle wrote:

 

Quote:
I was around other Christians and saw something at work in them that I had not experienced or known - and I wanted it.
 

What?

 

It was the Spirit of God coaching them, training them, disciplining them, dwelling with them.  I wanted on the team - by the grace of God I'm on. 

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
I experienced an emptiness in my life and my experience in the world.  They were helpful and proved to be friends.

What emptiness?

 

The emptiness of not knowing what I'm here for or why - where I came from or where I'm going, of no meaning to life - all things I craved.  The emptiness of thirst in a dry land.

 

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
I started reading the Bible and at a certain point it all hit me like lightning as true.  I was convicted that I was lost, in sin, and alienated from God - yet at the same time the Way of forgiveness through the grace (gift) of God in Christ was freely open to me.

I'm afraid that from my perspective, what you've said here isn't any different than what a Muslim informs me about the Koran or what a LDS member tells me about the Book of Mormon. Your "conviction," how is it proof of anything?

 

You don't know me so it's no proof to you but to me there has been a total change in life direction ever since - night and day.  I like the direction this is going. 

 

Quote:
I was born again that same day, born of the water and the Spirit and things turned around and started going the other direction.
 

What does that mean?

 

I followed the example of several in the Scriptures.  Peter told Cornelius to be baptized in Acts 10.  Ananias told Paul to be baptized in Acts 9.  It represents giving ourselves to death buried in water by baptism into Christ's death and trusting in God to raise us in a resurrection like His.  It represents washing away our sins in Christ's blood, a substitute sacrifice Who had no sin of His Own but became sin for us.  He willingly let them crucify Him - He could have called for 10,000 angels (one would have been more than enough) but He willingly died, making the sacrifice out of perfect love for the Father and us.

butterbattle wrote:

 

Quote:
There has been steady improvement and increasing joy and security and understanding ever since - that has been for about 45 years.

Really? In what way? How do you know it's because of Christianity?

 

The heart knows its own sorrow and no stranger shares its joy - so it's a hard thing to describe to another.  Jesus is perfect and there is nothing like rejoicing in Jesus - everything He Did, Said, and IS.  And He is with us 24/7.  Through the eyes of faith we see Him without fail.  This will work even when our faculties start to go.  Jesus has promised He will never forsake us - that is an unmovable anchor, a double edged sword in the hand of faith to kill any anxiety or threat of man. 

As to security, it is insecure to be living in a body and not be able to resist wrong things.  Christ has strengthened that and brought spiritual security to me - in Him.  In Him I can resist the Devil and my own wrong fleshly desires. 

As to understanding there is a whole lifetime of spiritual food in the Scriptures.  I feed on them every day - that statement by Jesus, "man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God", proves true every day.  I have to have the Manna from heaven and Water from the Rock - the Scriptures.  It's hard to read other books after tasting that. 

 

butterbattle wrote:

 

Quote:
it's just that we are honestly coming from two different realms.
 

I agree.

 

Yes but there is value in trying to communicate right?  I have had a little extra time this holiday and I watched/listened to a few you-tube videos by Pat Condell.  Would you say that most of the atheists on this forum agree with his perspective?

 

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
I have tried these things and proven them.

How?

 

I'm just going to give you the first thing that comes to mind.  The Scripture says it is better to go to the house of mourning than the house of feasting.  I have experienced great messages at funerals and seen the emptiness of feasts. 

Jesus said, "He that saves his life will lose it.  He that loses his life for my sake will find it".  I have had the experience of consciously giving up something that I thought I wanted to do for something I thought God wanted me to do and found something far better than I ever imagined.  I have thought I was going to help someone for example and they ended up helping me far more. 

On the other hand I have consciously gone with what I thought I wanted to do and was let down - it wasn't what I thought it would be at all.

 

butterbattle wrote:

Quote:
The fact that I was an easily bored experimenter is one reason I tried things and didn't find what I was looking for in the world or anywhere except Jesus.

Easily bored experimenter? How do you know "Jesus" is what you were looking for? What were you looking for? 

 

 

 I was not a guy who could ever enjoy a sustained lifetime hobby like fishing, camping, collecting, sky diving, air ballooning - those things would all bore me within 2 weeks.  It seemed I was rapidly becoming bored with ALL of life.  Then I found Jesus and I have never been bored with Him - not even close.

 

butterbattle wrote:


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butterbattle wrote:I'll just

butterbattle wrote:

I'll just give three examples:

Jesus said, "a man's life doesn't consist in an abundance of possessions."  That's becoming more self-evident in my experience and observation.

Second, the Scripture says, "better is a dinner of herbs where love is than a fatted ox and hatred with it."  That experience proves more and more true.  I've had both experiences.

Third, the Spirit of Christ through Solomon said, "Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes?  There is more hope for a fool than for him."  That is proving more and more true as well.

So, because you are poor/ living within your means, have had dinner with friends and enemies, and trust the wisdom of the writers of the Bible more than your own - therefore Christ exists?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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darth_josh wrote:I figure

darth_josh wrote:

I figure since I more than likely have until next week then I'll load this one up. If it's too much then tell me and I'll take it back a notch. It may seem disjointed, but there are sections that can be addressed alone.

 

Fonzie wrote:

 

darth_josh wrote:

You mentioned respectful discussion concerning faith in jesus. I asked you simply, but I'll reword:

If the answer to every question is going to be faith in jesus then why bother asking for our reasons for our lack of it? Did you come here to inquire about atheism or to preach to atheists?

 

As I stated from the first - I noticed that several said walking by faith in Jesus didn't work for them.  I am saying it does for me.

 

So, the answer to the question is that you came here to preach to atheists.

Hmmm. Go right ahead.

It seems that if your goal were to spread peace through the faith in jesus you profess then there would not be a slight building of frustration on either sides part. However, this problem was apparent a long time ago. Thus the creation of this particular forum on the boards.

It seems that the harder you push to preach sermons about yourself and your ideology, the closer to the truth as to why you believe will become apparent not only to us but to you as well.

The self-loathing nature of alleged believers is something I have yet to definitively qualify as an intrinsic trait to this ideology. Perhaps because it is not as evident in other adherents of christianity as it is in your words here.

Such statements as:

Fonzie wrote:

I have my present state of spiritual health to compare to my former state of spiritual sickness - thus I recommend the Physician.

I observe others' similar experience and guard my heart to make honest evaluation of what I see and know, admitting - as you mention - I could be fooled.

Could the same 'litmus test' be applicable in reference to you and this thread?

 

Sorry, I don't understand the question. 

darth_josh wrote:

Did you have to guard your heart before creating this thread? If so, then how could we operate under the honesty approach? 

 

My "guarding my heart" is something I do all the time 24/7.  What I was trying to say with respect to this thread is that I sort out things in great detail with focus on honesty - not as a matter of holding back anything.  As I said I am conscious of the fact that I can be fooled on things even trying to be honest.

darth_josh wrote:

 

 

Personally, an honest truthful examination does not try to make things fit into our ideology.

 

I'm not trying to make anything fit anyone's ideology. 

 

darth_josh wrote:

For instance, your response to my question concerning 'everything including the 'bad' simply relies upon the pat answer of:

Fonzie wrote:

The Lord has made everything for its purpose, including evil - and evil forces.

Which is (and I think you see this) a non-arguable answer for you. This is just the parroting of dogma. I want to know why. Why is there 'bad'? Is it to make you feel better? How does it justify your belief? 

 

As you know I totally believe the Bible perspective on this.  The "bad" started when the first man Adam disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden.  Then man was separated from his God.  Then man started forgetting his God and things went from bad to worse. 

I don't believe the idea that man is basically good because that's not what the Scriptures teach (maybe you can show me differently).  I believe man is basically fallen - all of mankind.  Thus it was possible for God's own people (Israel) to even put to death their God made flesh.

But Jesus came to restore man to his God - to remove the enmity between man and God (sin).  Jesus had no reason to suffer for anything because He was perfect.  He became sin however to take on our sin.  His death became the death of death.  In Him our sins are thus paid for - in Him they are nailed to the tree.

Why is there "bad" or "evil"?  Well, I have to speculate on that.  Since the Scriptures say that God and Jesus had the gospel planned before the world was created I would say that evil could have a good result in that man couldn't solve it himself and the solving of the problem is the glory of God. 

Through man's experience of evil man can find out that he can't overcome evil by himself - he needs God.  Through the pain and results of evil man could reach out to God undeservedly and God could respond out of His GHreat Love and to His Glory.  So my guess is that the greatest result of evil is the Glory of God rescuing man from it.

How does evil justify my belief?  Well, I found evil unfulfilling, enslaving and a brutal master - I was unfulfilled by it and unhappy in it yet I couldn't escape on my own.  The gospel message of redemption seemed too god to be true - one of the hardest things was thinking it could apply to me.  When I repented I came out in Christ hating and resisting evil and that has never changed.  The Holy Spirit has coached me and showed me I don't need to be defeated by it and in Him I'm not.  I'm always on guard like I said.  Watch a deer or a bird trying to eat something and you'll see what I mean.  I've learned to watch and guard my heart.  I don't do it perfectly but i'm on guard and the Holy Spirit gives me fire and steam to do this.  It works for me.

darth_josh wrote:

 

Do bad things happen to others in order for you to thank your god that it isn't you?

 

This may be your impression but it is certainly not the case.  I want good things for everybody. 

darth_josh wrote:

 

Your fond of metaphor...

Isn't this like the economic stimulus check that makes you feel happy to get extra special treatment even though there is no way that it will change the whole economy? 

No but this appears to be what you view it as - a panacea.  This is instead like the smallest seed that can grow to the mightiest cedar in the most unlikely place. 

darth_josh wrote:

 

 

Akin to your god on high saying: "Well, there is evil. I made it. But look at these kittens. And you're special."

 

This sounds like a second grade "new school" teacher, ha.  My experience with God has been "old school".  He disciplines every son He receives - look what He let go down with His Own Son.  He definitely means what He says and He doesn't say it like you describe.

darth_josh wrote:

 

What if... What if your idea of why something happens weren't contingent upon action by a supreme being?

I would be of all men most to be pitied (that's a quote from the Scriptures but I agree with it).  If we both keep on as we are - one of us is going to be disappointed, right?  I'm hoping neither of us is. 

darth_josh wrote:

 

I feel equally as joyful as you profess to be when I figure out a complex situation on my own devoid of faith in jesus that it all works out in the end. Every time.

 

You're different than me in that.  The last complex situation will be death.  If you end up on the other side of death having acdcepted a lie when the truth was available that would be the ultimate swindle - a worm of regret that would never die. 

darth_josh wrote:

 

Certainly, there is a statistical probability that problems work themselves out without my action. However, if the answer was faith then wouldn't I fail in those other times where it was ALL ME doing the fixing? 

 

None of us are going to get a backstage pass to these things while on earth.  The way faith in Jesus works in all this (which you are resisting) is that - what Jesus says ends all these questions and conflicting speculations.  Faith breaks through all this because if Jesus says it - it is true.  I don't have to worry about Darth Josh's statistics or Pat Condell's sword thrusts. 

darth_josh wrote:

 

I think 'faith in jesus' gives you that 'way out' for blame and/or consequence. What do you think?

 

 

It could be misused that way true.  The Word of God however instructs me to accept trials as discipline, embrace and ask God for strength to bear it and use it as a spiritual workout - accepting my lot. 

As far as blame, I try to accept whatever blame that is mine though I'm sure I miss some and make it easier for others to forgive me when I'm at blame.  Forgiveness is a basic principle of grace.  Jesus said I have to totally forgive everybody when I come to pray (and I'm to pray constantly) so I can be heard and forgiven.  I even get to forgive myself of my blame. 

 

 


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Proper Gander wrote:Fonzie

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
 

ProperGander,

You have to admit that simply NOT believing something is true doesn't make it untrue either.

What if it is true that you HAVE to exist somewhere for eternity?

What if an invisible truck is about to hit you? Will you throw yourself in the mud to get out of its way?

 

Death is no invisible truck.

 

Proper Gander wrote:

It basically comes down to evidence. If you can't provide any, then I have no reason to fear your eternal existance scenario any more than I have to fear the invisible truck.

 

I offer Christ as evidence.  He is perfect - there is no flaw in Him.  He is worthy of all our worship.  His Words are True.  He said, "whoever believes in Me will not die".  The way He lived and died inspires faith in Him.  I think Jesus is His own proof. 

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
I can understand why the good news of eternal life in Christ seems like a scam - actually far greater than the emails that promise a multimillion inheritance from a stranger.  It does seem too god to be true, however I have no doubt the gospel of Christ is true and offer my lack of doubt.

I don't think you understand me correctly. An eternal life as portrayed by christianity is completely undesirable to me. It isn't that it sounds "too good to be true", it's that it's completely unfounded, goes against evidence and is pretty counter-intuitive anyway. Plus, it's an awful deal, and I wouldn't want it even if it was true. Thanks, but no thanks. I have no doubt the gospel of christ is false and offer my scepticism.

 

 

You are free to reject eternal life in Christ obviously. 

 

Proper Gander wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
RATHER - A GREAT GOD AND THE BEST MASTER!

Ugh, no. Pretending for a second that he exist, he'd be a pretty incompetent god judging from the world situation, and I would never accept him as my master anyway. I'm a free man of a free country.

 

Another view is that you will is so enslaved and your understanding so darkened that you actually think you are free when you are not.

 

Proper Gander wrote:

 

 


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

No one is born a theist. Theism is a process of indoctrination.

 

Of course the term "indoctrination" characterizes what is taught as a lie. 

I view atheism as indoctrination - a denial of the obvious - and theism as acceptance of the reality of God's glory as displayed in His creation.

But He didn't just wind it up and leave - He sent His Son to redeem it and bring the ones to Himself that accept the gift of grace in His Son.

If people were born with a belief in God, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, reality stands against your view.

The bible explains that to a thinking person.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

[quote

And I can just as easily paraphrase John 3:16 to "For God so loved the world that he sacrificed Himself to Himself so He could change a rule He made".

You can get the feel for what God did if you read about Abraham's following the instructions to go sacrifice his son Isaac on the mountain.  God had an angel stop him but Abraham was going to do it - he was confident God could bring Isaac back to life, so, in effect he received him as if back from the dead through faith. God didn't stop Himself however.  In order for Jesus to save those of us who believe He couldn't save Himself.

 

 

1. Really? What part of theism is innate? Where does the Bible explain this? Or is this something I have to kiss Yahweh's tush for before I understand?

 

jcgadfly,

It would be possible for a child to have unknown biological parents then eventually find them.  Tjhe unknown relationship would be innate.  God is our Father, our Maker, though unknown to many. 

In Romans the first it says..."ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature, namely His eternal power and deity has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.  So they are without excuse..."

God loves even His enemies.  He is merciful therefore to be feared.

As far as understanding - the gospel is so simple a child can understand it.  Jesus came and lived a perfect Life, died and paid the price for our sins with His blood, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day and has an Indestructable Life.  The Power that raised Him from the dead is at work in those who believe in Him.  We give ourselves to die in the waters of believer's baptism and are raised to walk in a new life of freedom in the Lord with the anointing of the Gift of the Spirit. 

The biggest problem is probably that it is too easy to understand.  Man wants to get his hand in it, his glory.  The Glory is all God's however.  It's a big problem for man to humble himself to that fact and wholeheartedly let God have the throne rather than himself.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

 

 

2. So the Canaanite god Yahweh had to have his demigod son (created by the gospel writers) take a three day holiday before he could be a demigod again? Wow, what a sacrifice (not). If you insist on both Yahweh and Yahshua being god, you have the problem of dead God raising Jesus (also dead God) back to life. The best some can do is the trinity, which is polytheism for those who don't wan to admit to it.

 

Yes, I understand you don't believe the gospel and work at mocking Jesus and God.  I don't hold it against you - and I think you could totally change some day.  It's possible.

Who would have thought that Saul would have become a devoted follower of Christ and the Holy Spirit would write a large part of the New Testament through him.

Many are invited to the Marriage Feast.  Many have excuses as you seem to - and won't come.

1. The parental relationship is a natural one. Belief in God is not natural - it's learned. Glad you dig it but you didn't have it from birth.

2. The gospel story you relate - "Jesus" can be replaced with several other gods purported to exhibit the same behavior.

3. I see you don't believe in the Gospel either - that's why you preach Paul instead of Jesus.

4. You wrote about the Christian friends you had - how much of your turn to Christianity was a natural need to fit in with their society?

 

I don't know - but there were other societies at the time that I DIDN'T want to join. 


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Megatron wrote: Your faith

Megatron wrote:

 Your faith is perfectly fine.  I don't care what you do.  Christians, Buddhists, Satanists, what have you.  Personally I just do not believe.  You have faith, I will not believe without evidence.  That's pretty much the basis of atheism.  I will not lecture you about my beliefs.  The people I hate are the ones that feel right at home attempting to convert me or lecture me about their religion.  STOP.  That is my take, and I believe that we (theists and atheists) can all live in harmony.

 

Evolution cannot be debated.  'Tis real.

That's the way my faith is - in the evidence of the gospel in Christ, His death, burial and resurrection. 

 

 


jcgadfly
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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

No one is born a theist. Theism is a process of indoctrination.

 

Of course the term "indoctrination" characterizes what is taught as a lie. 

I view atheism as indoctrination - a denial of the obvious - and theism as acceptance of the reality of God's glory as displayed in His creation.

But He didn't just wind it up and leave - He sent His Son to redeem it and bring the ones to Himself that accept the gift of grace in His Son.

If people were born with a belief in God, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, reality stands against your view.

The bible explains that to a thinking person.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

[quote

And I can just as easily paraphrase John 3:16 to "For God so loved the world that he sacrificed Himself to Himself so He could change a rule He made".

You can get the feel for what God did if you read about Abraham's following the instructions to go sacrifice his son Isaac on the mountain.  God had an angel stop him but Abraham was going to do it - he was confident God could bring Isaac back to life, so, in effect he received him as if back from the dead through faith. God didn't stop Himself however.  In order for Jesus to save those of us who believe He couldn't save Himself.

 

 

1. Really? What part of theism is innate? Where does the Bible explain this? Or is this something I have to kiss Yahweh's tush for before I understand?

 

jcgadfly,

It would be possible for a child to have unknown biological parents then eventually find them.  Tjhe unknown relationship would be innate.  God is our Father, our Maker, though unknown to many. 

In Romans the first it says..."ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature, namely His eternal power and deity has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.  So they are without excuse..."

God loves even His enemies.  He is merciful therefore to be feared.

As far as understanding - the gospel is so simple a child can understand it.  Jesus came and lived a perfect Life, died and paid the price for our sins with His blood, was buried and rose from the dead on the third day and has an Indestructable Life.  The Power that raised Him from the dead is at work in those who believe in Him.  We give ourselves to die in the waters of believer's baptism and are raised to walk in a new life of freedom in the Lord with the anointing of the Gift of the Spirit. 

The biggest problem is probably that it is too easy to understand.  Man wants to get his hand in it, his glory.  The Glory is all God's however.  It's a big problem for man to humble himself to that fact and wholeheartedly let God have the throne rather than himself.

jcgadfly wrote:

 

 

 

2. So the Canaanite god Yahweh had to have his demigod son (created by the gospel writers) take a three day holiday before he could be a demigod again? Wow, what a sacrifice (not). If you insist on both Yahweh and Yahshua being god, you have the problem of dead God raising Jesus (also dead God) back to life. The best some can do is the trinity, which is polytheism for those who don't wan to admit to it.

 

Yes, I understand you don't believe the gospel and work at mocking Jesus and God.  I don't hold it against you - and I think you could totally change some day.  It's possible.

Who would have thought that Saul would have become a devoted follower of Christ and the Holy Spirit would write a large part of the New Testament through him.

Many are invited to the Marriage Feast.  Many have excuses as you seem to - and won't come.

1. The parental relationship is a natural one. Belief in God is not natural - it's learned. Glad you dig it but you didn't have it from birth.

2. The gospel story you relate - "Jesus" can be replaced with several other gods purported to exhibit the same behavior.

3. I see you don't believe in the Gospel either - that's why you preach Paul instead of Jesus.

4. You wrote about the Christian friends you had - how much of your turn to Christianity was a natural need to fit in with their society?

 

I don't know - but there were other societies at the time that I DIDN'T want to join. 

Did you have friends in those "other societies"? It's been my view that Christians can be really cool people when the lights are on and they know others are watching them. It's when they think they're alone when they reveal themselves.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin