It works for me!
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Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
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Let's try again though. Why is your god real, but the Muslim god is not?
How can an objective observer tell them apart?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
None of God's children will be in Hell I assure you.
Hell is not for God's children. It's for those who choose not to be His children. He cares about those people too, but He isn't going to force them to do something they don't want to do. But you want into Heaven, but you don't want to play by Heaven's rules. It doesn't work that way.
No, that is your idea.
I beg to differ. I love learning and art and music (all kinds) as much or more than the next guy. And I am free to enjoy my life to the very end because I have no fear of death. I can even take risks that you would never take, because you are scared of death. If you are not scared of death, it's because you are in denial. Wait until death is close to you, and you will be scared. Everyone is. Didn't Darwin recant a bunch of crap at the very end of his life?
Ok, pay attention this time. I've already said this before, but I'll say it again.
I am going to heaven because Jesus Christ paid for my sins, and thus I have been reconciled to God, once and for all. I could commit the worst sins imaginable, and I would still go to Heaven.
Now then, I am not "desperate to get there" at all. I have a prepaid ticket to Heaven that cannot be lost or taken away from me, period. In fact I'm not even in any hurry to get there.
I figure according to statistics if I take care of myself I'll have about 45 to 50 more years to live on this earth. And when it's over I will be in Heaven (or the New Earth) for eternity. This temporal life on earth is pretty darn short, and I'm enjoying every minute of it. I have all of eternity to enjoy God's kingdom. It can wait. Plus I have a job to do here, and it's not finished. And that job does not include threatening people within an inch of their lives to convert to Christianity. Is that what I'm doing here? No. I'm talking with you people. And enduring a lot of insults as well. I know it's not personal, and that's why I'm not fighting back.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
In other words, yes, you make the decision yourself based on how you've defined God.
And many of us here have already shown you that we've read your book more closely than you have.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Yahweh made men.
Men made Allah.
You do the math.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Men made Yahweh also. They were called Canaanites.
If you'd actually read the Bible you might have seen stuff about them.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
If you say so. I'm not so arrogant to think I know more about the bible than anyone else. That wasn't my point.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
So now you're backpedaling - What happened to the "If you'd actually read the Bible..." arrogance I'd gotten used to?
Maybe you're learning that other people know your holy book fairly well - I hope so. It's probably false humility so I shouldn't get my hopes up.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
In other words, you have no true morality. All you have is obedience.
If you would read the Bible for what it actually says instead of only absorbing the parts that fit your preconception of a God who is utterly just, wholly good, and perfectly loving, you would understand why your willingness to obey God absolutely is so disgusting.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
You are missing the point. Human beings are very easily fooled and we very easily fool ourselves. Do you have the courage to look honestly into the ways that this happens so that you can see whether or not any of it applies to your beliefs and the ways that you interpret your experiences?
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
It was sarcasm, out of frustration.
Look, I don't claim to know it all. But I know what I've read and what it clearly says. And you can tell me what Catholics believe, or Mormons, or JW's, or Baptists, or whatever, and that doesn't change what I know I've read with my own eyes. Maybe they had an axe to grind, and that influenced their interpretation of the bible. But then the same could be said for just about any idea out there, even putting religion aside.
I really am not a know it all. I'm a decent guy. There's no need to turn this debate into an all out war. At the end of the day, our lives probably don't look that different from the outside.
I love playing my guitar and drums. I love my wife, my kids, my family. I love working and building stuff in my garage. I love wake-boarding, and fishing. I enjoy learning about different ideas and even beliefs. And I know we all enjoy arguing or we wouldn't be here. lol
If I have been rude to anyone here, I apologize. I just get a little worked up sometimes. No harm intended.
I'm not learning that other people know the bible well aside from Christians. I would expect them to, if they are making the assertion that it's false, any critical thinker needs to do some research before making any decision like that. Of course I disagree with their conclusion. But I don't think they are bad people, at least not as I define a bad person.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
The fact that I am willing to do whatever my Father asks me to do, does not infer that I have no concept of right and wrong of my own.
I do, and it's probably not so different than yours.
I have. I am reading the whole bible right now in fact. A few chapters a day, from the beginning to the end.
I am in 1Samuel right now, so I am already past all the parts you use to discredit my God, or at least most of them.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
I think the fact that I would even come to a place like this to chat proves that my answer to that question is yes. I am not threatened by those who disagree with what I believe, or even by those who mock what I believe.
I'm not scared of being proven wrong. Or that I might find out that I've wasted my life following a shadow I thought was God. I don't hide myself in a church to keep safe from naysayers. I am glad you people are even talking about Jesus Christ, even if you don't believe in Him. It means that you have considered the possbility of Him at least.
Is there some reason that anytime you post in this God-fosaken forum (pun intended) that it takes you to the beginning of the thread each time?
Is there a way to disable that, so it just takes you back to where you were, on the last page?
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
I apologize as well. More than occasionally passion overwhelms my sense.
None of this is personal - I just have a hard time when people claim they know the answers without having heard my questions. If I have done that to you - apologies.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
No problem.
Have an awesome weekend by the way! I know I'm going to.
Peace.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
You are just asserting. No-one would agree with you unless they already agreed with you.
A child who has never heard of religion (grew up in Japan, isolated, whatever) has a Muslim and a Christian standing in front of him.
Christian: Yahweh made men. Men made Allah. You do the math.
Muslim: Allah made men. Men made Jesus. You do the math.
The kid says, "Your claims are mutually contradictory, and based on the same logical fallacies."
Then you say....?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Pray about it? lol
I don't think there is anything I could say that would prove it to someone. Only God can prove His own existence. But you have to have a little curiosity at least, or you will never be looking in the first place.
So if anything I would try to get them to start asking questions, and pray about it, seriously. Not to any specific God, but just pray to whoever might be out there, if he can hear me, please prove yourself to me. And see what happens. No harm in that. It may seem silly to someone who doesn't believe, but this is a fairly important decision to make, either way you go, so testing both sides of the issue is a good idea.
And the most important thing is to keep an open mind.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Like I said, pathetic.
And so how do you explain why theists all get contradictory answers? http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html Christianity is in the lead, but only if you combine Catholics, Protestants and post-protestants. People do 'pray about it' and come to answers totally contradictory to yours. People even convert from Christianity to Islam, it is very common. Why is a Muslim convert 'wrong' but you are 'right'?
Why are religious revelations mutually contradictory?
You've stated, flat out, that you 1) have no objective reason for belief 2) have no objective way to show your belief superior to others
If Christianity were true, I would expect at least one instance of independent Christian revelation. None exists. The only way people find out about Jesus is when a human being tells them about Jesus, and they buy it. Funny how that works, isn't it? Almost like religion is a purely human construct!
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
If someone prays about it and does some research and gives it a fair chance and still doesn't buy it, so be it. I am not out to force anyone to be a Christian if they don't want to. I think they should, but that's just my belief, and I won't try to force it on anyone else.
What is pathetic about that? Would you do the same? Or do you feel the need to rid the land of beliefs that differ from your own?
I'll have to disagree with you there.
Humans left to figure things out for themselves without any influence by scientists or evangelists, will observe the world around them and for the most part they will come up with the notion that there is a creator.
That is the natural conclusion from the unmanipulated evidence all around us.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Honestly though Music, this has been great. You have single handidly proven that a rational, neutral observer has no way to differentiate theistic claims.
In the face of that proof, the only logical choice is to remain uncommitted until such time as a particular brand of theism shows some actual evidence. Since that has not happened at any point in human history, atheism looks like a pretty good place to be.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
I have done the same, I used to be a theist. I studied the Bible every day for twenty years. I prayed three or four times a day for at least 15 of those. However, I always thought I had a 'reason' to believe. When I analyzed my beliefs and discovered that all the arguments for said belief where empty shells, I abandonded belief for something that actually made sense. The world actually makes sense to me now, and it never did before.
Christianity has some good parts, but it is not harmless. And honestly, all the good parts have been incorporated into secular society already, we don't need the bad baggage anymore, our societies have evolved past the need for theocratic pap.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Glad I could be of help.
I don't think I did all of that. I think you had pretty much decided that is the way things are long before you met me. But blame me if it makes you feel bitter, I mean better.
I'm about to leave in 10 minutes, and I'll be back monday.
So don't think I'm being rude or ignoring you if I don't answer your post.
Have a good weekend.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
If you don't mind my asking, were you part of any major denomination? Which one? Did you really study your bible every day for 20 years? That's impressive, if true.
What initially made you decide to question what you've committed a large portion of your life to?
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
*whoosh*
I agree, it total ignorance a human will often create a form of spirit worship, but it will *never* be 'God' and it will *never* be Jesus. That only happened once, in the history of the human race. Religious revelation happens every day, and it is always different.
To me, it seems likely it is the results of the human trait of curiosity and a desire to figure things out. When people run into a problem they cannot solve, they can either profess ignorance or claim magic.
There is only one question that we cannot answer, and that is, "what created this universe". I choose to admit ignorance and await evidence. You choose magic. At every point in human history, there have been those who choose magic. And at every point, someone who acknowledges ignorance figures things out and pushes the boundaries of human knowledge further out. And at every point there is a theist saying we can't, because it is magic.
Besides, many 'intuitive' beliefs are simply wrong. Intuitively, a heavier object falls faster than a lighter object, and this was thought to be true for thousands of years. Where they right?
Intuitively, what would a person think about stars? How about the sun? What are the stars, really? What is the sun, really? Do you see what I am getting at here? Why is your intuitive belief about a creator-deity correct?
It gets even worse. Intuitively, what is the nature of time? What is the nature of quantum mechanics? The closer we get to understanding the little 't' truth of reality, the more complex it gets. A tribe of goat herders was not capable of understanding anything about the building blocks of reality...it turns out that the universe is actually a pretty complicated place...it turns out that creating light is more complex than the words of a god. I don't blame ancient cultures for using magic as a plug to answer questions about the universe. As things are explained, magic becomes less necessary to plug the gaps in human knowledge. God shrinks, science grows.
When some dude wrote Genesis, he was not capable of explaining star formation, nuclear fusion and the properties of photons...so he wrote, "And God said, let there be light!" instead. But now we *know better*.
On this very board at this very minute we are talking to a guy who thinks the planet earth was magically covered in 15 miles of water and then it magically disappeared, even though we have written records from the time the magic flood supposedly happened and they don't mention it. He thinks that a man was eaten by a whale and just sort of hung out for a week, and came out ok. He believes this planet is less than 10,000 yeas old even though we have human artifacts from older civilizations. That is what religion does to otherwise reasonable people.
Besides, you can't even show that the Christian God is even typical to religion throughout history. It was not the first monotheistic deity, nor was it the last...but statistically monotheism is a rarity.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
So anyone who disobeys is automatically kicked out int Hell? That is precisely why such a God would be evil.
So you are ok with a God who doesn't think rape, torture, and slavery are worth condemning, as compared to having some sexy thoughts looking at a beautiful woman, even if they have no intention of acting on them?
OK, so you will be able to carry on doing all those things in Heaven?
What makes you think I am scared of death? It is true I don't look forward to it particularly, but I can't think of a reason to worry about a sudden death, especially since I don't have to worry about being 'judged'. The only think I would hate would be a painful, prolonged dying process, and/or a progressive loss of my faculties to something like Alzheimer's. Thankfully, as far as I can tell, I am as alert as ever, with maybe just some slight loss of mental quickness and slower recall of some things, despite having outlived a number of other people I have known and liked.
As for Darwin's alleged recanting, as far as we can honestly discover, that was put about by religious people who desperately wanted it to be true.
I've had fun, having been thru most of the years you are looking forward to, seen quite a bit of the world, including that region cursed by the conflicts between the three major varieties of the Abrahamic faith, the Middle East ( only Egypt actually, although the dive boat we were on on the Red Sea was Israeli, and we talked with some Israelis over dinner at a restaurant in Sharm el-Sheikh).
I think I can be justified in assuming I may have a better insight into humanity and human nature than someone with more limited experience. Not saying it proves I am 'smarter' or more knowledgable, but it makes it a more reasonable claim. And of course I came well within the top 1% in my State in the main exam at the end of high school, so I have some legitimate claim to being 'smarter than the average bear'. All of which has contribute to my finding much fun in life, making it easier to face the inevitability of death. The knowledge I have gained from following scientific studies of health and nutrition I think has helped me make lifestyle decisions which have kept me in much more robust health than most others of my age. Just pointing out that there are other paths to enjoying a long and interesting and enjoyable life than via Belief. And you still cannot KNOW with certainty that there is a God and that you are going anywhere after you die. We may not be able to prove that you aren't, but it is as certain as anything can be that you cannot prove you are. After all, that's why religion has to play the 'faith' card so much.
There is significant evidence, from doctors and nurses, that religious people do not by any means always face death any more calmly than non-believers when it comes to the crunch.
Did you hear about the pastor who spoke to non-believing philosopher David Hume on his death-bed and was thrown into deep confusion and doubt at seeing a non-believer facing death so calmly, with no desire whatever to 'recant'.
It would appear that believers are the ones with a strong fear of death, which they manage to suppress most of the time by clinging to their hope for an after-life. That is also why they are so determined to ignore everything we point out that is false about their belief - they are scared shitless that what we say may actually be true, so can't admit even to themselves that we might be right.
We appreciate you staying on in the face of understandable expressions of frustration at your stubborn clinging to a bunch of nonsense.
I did not intend to imply you were in a hurry to get to heaven, just that you are presumably concerned to make sure you don't do anything to risk losing your ticket. Which I see as blocking you from at least some enjoyable experiences which actually cause no harm but may be prohibited by that pathetic excuse for a moral code in the Bible.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Lutheran church and family, Baptist school.
Yes I did, it was required by my family, my school and my church.
The idea of a loving God who created hell is what really made me question things. The picture I had of God and Jesus simply did not jive with hell. Once I started down the rabbit hole I discovered that I had no objective basis for any of the religious ideas I believed. I went through a phase where I tried to believe in non-Christian religions. As I went through different religions I started to study them formally, and eventually that led me to become an agnostic. Once I discovered the philosophy of humanism and started to study non-religious and scientific morality I became fully atheist, since without the argument for morality I simply had no reason to believe in anything anymore. (And I *really* tried. I was desperate to find some sort of 'meaning'. With hindsight, I think I was just desperate to find a source of immortality.)
As I studied atheism I become more and more 'militant'. I was a 'weak' atheist up until about a year ago. At that point I had a lengthy debate with an entire forum about religion and morality. I was the only non-theist in a discussion full of them, sort of like how Paisley is here. The 'debate' crushed the last respect I had for theistic philosophy, because the 'best' arguments people had were all very weak...just fallacy after fallacy. I began to study counter-apologetics and became a 'strong' atheist.
Now I am a 6 on the Dawkins scale of theistic belief. The only reason I am not a 7 is I simply don't know what existed before our universe did, and what we might label such a thing. However, I am totally certain it was not a conscious entity of any kind, and so I am a 7 if you are asking specifically about a personal god. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_of_theistic_probability
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Have a good weekend, still three hours to go here on the west coast!
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Do you think it's possible that anything God could ask of you might be contrary to your personal sense of morality?
Well, if you are a Christian who is actually reading the whole Bible carefully, you are in the minority. Seriously.
I'm curious. What do you do with the parts where God orders the wholesale slaughter of men, women, children, and even animals?
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
Then I don't think you are being careful enough about what you accept as evidence. Because I understand something about how easily and how completely a human can be fooled by a subjective experience, a truly amazing personal experience would not be enough to convince me of the existence of God or ghosts or angels or what have you. I'd need some kind of objective evidence that can be tested and re-tested not by me alone but by others. In other words, I'd need the kind of evidence that can be subjected to scientific investigation.
I think it's a bug in the forum script. I work around it by making my replies in a new tab. I right click on the "Quote" button, select "Open Link in New Tab", create my response in that new tab, then close the tab after posting the message, then I just go back to the original tab and I'm right back where I left off.
It works for me.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
You seem to be getting swamped a bit. Take your time.
So yes, you would murder an innocent child if god asked you to. Okay, thanks, that's clear.
You wouldn't believe the variety of "real christians" we get here. We really have no choice but to ask you questions, if we're to have any chance of figuring out where you're coming from.
I'm not sure I understand how that works. How exactly would you tell the difference between god or the devil asking you to murder a child ?
This jives with my personal experience. I know when I was about half way through my loss of religion I was terrified of death. I spent a ton of time coming to terms with the fact that I am going to die someday, and when I die I will cease to exist.
Now I am not worried about death at all. I'm still scared of dying, naturally, but I've come to terms with death. When I was a theist I was always scared about hell, or ceasing all together.
[Edited by BobSpence1 to fix quoting - I trust this is OK; seems pretty obvious what happened ]
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
And the reasoning that you came to this conclusion is the same reasoning that a muslim came to the conclusion about a christian god.
Atheists simply used that same reasoning to throw out both of them (all of them for that matter).
Dolt:"Evolution is just a theory."
Me:"Yes, so is light and gravity. Pardon me while I flash this strobe while dropping a bowling ball on your head. This shouldn't bother you; after all, these are just theories."
Mellestad,
I think you guys are bothered by the eternity that is in your minds. You keep repeating your mantras to each other in hopes that someday you'll be at peace with it. You have the painted bubble - it's all going to burst. And the support of all the RRSQ a trillion times over won't make any difference if you're wrong.
And you are wrong. Jesus, the Son of God died for our sins, was buried, and came back to life just as the Scriptures prophesied. He fulfilled them all. And He wants you to all to have salvation - not presumption. If you believe in Jesus you will be saved. It's a gift. The conduit for this water of life is faith. Your pipe is broken just like the Roman Aqueducts.
Aren't you going to feel stupid if I'm right about this? Are you going to have this same attitude if it's true? Can you honestly say you will?
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
Can you honestly admit that Pascal's Wager and a fear of death is really all you have?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
You are simply wrong. We have no 'eternity in our minds', that expression doesn't even make sense, to me at least.
We are not repeating any mantras, you appear to be the one doing something like that.
You seem not to have read or understood what we keep telling you about the way we see life and death.
Faith is self-deception. A third party cannot meaningfully atone for MY 'sins' against others, that is mere primitive superstition.
Living according to your broken principles would mean forgoing significant opportunities for a fulfilling life, wasting significant chunks of our finite allocation on meaningless, futile ritual.
In the unlikely event I find myself before this capricous cruel tyrant of a God, who fashioned a world in which we are at the mercy of arbitrary natural forces, and is filled with disease organisms he created to attack us and our innocent children, I would ask him for a lot of explanations.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
If you really wanted to know if anything was bothering us, you could just ask. Is it more fun to just make something up ?
BobSpence1,
You can conceive of life going on before you were here and after you are gone - but extended out you don't know what's on either end, right? That's eternity, and it's in your mind.
You can read Bob's mind ? Gosh.
Eternity is only in the minds of those who fear death and the unknown.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JcGadfly,
You are the one bringing up the fear that is on your mind. I have found the answer to eternity - both ends. Through the eyes of faith I can see both ways. Christ has both ends well lit.
As far as the unknown - there may be comfort in ignorance but it isn't eternal comfort or eternal ignorance. A drowning man is in a stupor - it's when you revive him he feels pain. Do you fear revival?
Looking back, when God ignited me in Christ, oil supplied as well, it didn't feel like I had been brought from death to life at the time. But either I changed or the world did. Things that had been pleasure were then horrible and vice-versa. I had new sorrows and also new great pleasures - and also, yes, delivery from a lifelong bondage of fear of death. It's called the "new creation" in Christ, and it works great for me - and I'm recommending it to you, and all. Believe in Christ and live.
I wouldn't think a thinking atheist would be satisfied in a dark tent with no window on either end - and an undeniable expiration date. Maybe his thinking is captivated? Short termed? Aggressively passive? It's hard to knock on a tent, but I know you're in there. Hello the camp!
Not really. I have no conception of what a life before I was born could possibly mean, and while I can sort of image some sort of continuation after nominal death, I cannot honestly conceive of or visualize 'eternity', although I understand what it means. But to have it in my mind as more than a dictionary definition, no.
At the start of life is just a gradual awakening of consciousness, at the end I imagine it like going into a dreamless sleep and never waking up, so the end is actually the moment I lose consciousness.
Even if there was some awakening into another realm, I still can't conceive of eternity in any visceral way. I could approximate it if I imagined having to sit through a long sermon from someone like you, I guess.
I have seen no evidence for anything beyond in either direction, so I don't give it any further thought unless someone can provide interesting objective evidence.
If you were referring to other life than my own, there is also no reason to believe life on Earth extends indefinitely in either direction.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Uhm, no, he didn't. Read what he wrote. Just for once, have the decency to do that, to try it at least.
This is amazing, really. JC wrote just one sentence, and you still didn't read it. You just focus on a word like "fear" and start free-associating.
You're funny.
Accusing me of a fear of death and the unknown while you have a stranglehold on your Jesus security blanket that keeps you from looking at both. Jealous because I'm taking things head on while you hide in the corner sucking your thumb? Makes sense for one who commanded by God not to grow up - you're always going to be a child of God, never a useful man of God.
As for my revival, that's really unnecessary. I'm not dead despite your fervent desire to the contrary.
Why do you wear your God commanded lack of self-worth as a badge of honor? Perhaps a bit too proud of your humility?
If you actually came and knocked onmy door you'd be welcome no strings attached. Could you say the same if I visited you or would I have to perform all the rituals necessary to be like you?
Hang in there Linus, I hope the big bad devil of your own making doesn't put your blanket in the laundry (though it is smelling a bit like rotting flesh).
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
You can say that again. But don't because if you do, I'll be even more swamped. lol
Don't you people take a break?
I had a great weekend, for the most part. Got the new baby's room primed, and I'll paint tonight. The bad thing is the walls were already baby blue, because it was a baby boy's room with the previous owner's as well, but of course it's not the "right" blue. lol We are expecting a baby boy in early June. This will be our second. My daughter is 15 months old.
All the preparation for the new baby is hard work, but it can't compare to actually having the new baby. lol And we were just starting to get a full nights sleep again. Oh well.
I will try to answer all the questions in order. It may take me a while to do it. Maybe I'll just hit the key points, and skip over the repetitions. Say if two people ask the same question or say the same thing, I'll only address it once. That might help.
Anyway, stay tuned.
By the way, I think I deserve some credit because I actually am answering questions to the best of my abilities and not just chunking the gospel at you like some others.
Now whether you think my answers are worth anything, that's an entirely different issue.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
Well, that argument was not so much for Christianity but for Theism.
I hear what you are saying. I don't have much to say in response. Obviously I disagree with your conclusion that the practically inevitable birth of Theism in any culture, no matter how primitive or advanced is nothing more than a gap-filler until their scientific methods develop enough to answer the questions, but rather would say it proves that it is very natural for mankind to desire to worship a higher being. Christianity explains this as "God has given light to all men." The ingrained natural desire to ask questions like "where did I come from" or "what is my purpose" or "what is the meaning of life" (it's not 42, in case you were wondering. lol). And to look upward for those answers.
We could go back and forth all day on that, but at this point I think we should just be satisfied that we both understand the other's viewpoint, and respectfully disagree.
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
No, that isn't what I've said and it's not what the bible says. There are consequences to every action. Bad decisions result in bad consequences. But God has given us every opportunity in the world to avoid those consequences, and instead reap a tremendous undeserved reward. If we choose to reject that, and we'd rather pay for our own sins, then He is not going to force salvation upon us.
I believe I have already corrected that false assertion which is based on eisegesis (reading into) scripture what it simply does not say.
The point of that verse is not to minimize rape, torture, or slavery. It is to maximize lust and hate which people all too often minimize.
Why not?
Most people are. I don't know that you are. I was assuming.
I don't have to worry about being judged either. (John 3:18)
Like I said before, let's see if you still feel that way when death is a little closer to you.
I'll take your word for it. I would think that would be pretty easy to prove if it were true, but I admit I am just going in hearsay and have not looked into it personally.
Though there are Christians in that area, the majority of the people you are referring to do not believe what I do. So blaming their problems on their respective faiths does not bother me. In fact, I totally agree with you.
Good. I have never said that unbelievers cannot have happy fulfilling lives. The point of the gospel (despite modern corruptions of it) is not to make you have a happy, prosperous life. It is to deal with the issue of sin in your life that cannot be dealt with any other way.
Yes I can, and I do. I just can't prove it to anyone, and I'm fine with that. It is very possible to know something for certain and still not be able to prove it to anyone else.
I have a very different opinion as to why God employs faith as the means for accepting the gift of salvation.
I'm sure you will reply by accusing me of "no true scottsman." But the fact of the matter is, a person going to church all their lives does not make them a Christian. And even Christians who are weak in faith can and do fear death. It takes a level of maturity as a Christian to no longer fear death when death is really staring them in the face. I can't say for certain that I wouldn't have a moment of fear if I knew I were about to die. I'd like to believe I woudn't.
No, I haven't heard of that. But I think my previous answer applies here too.
I am not scared of death, and yet I remain a believer. I know that I could walk away from God and live in sin the rest of my life, and still I would go to Heaven when I died. I don't do that because I love God and I want to show Him my appreciation and love by being obedient to Him. If someone clings to God only because of fear of death, I would have to seriously question whether or not they are truly saved, because they clearly do not understand the point of the gospel.
No prob. I've been rude a couple of times myself. Both sides of the aisle here are passionate about what they know and believe, so it happens.
That is what you don't understand. I couldn't lose my "ticket" if I wanted to.
I've not given up anything for God that was worthwhile anyway. I don't think I've made any sacrifices that would not benefit even people who don't believe in God.
Do you have any examples of such experiences?
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18
My argument for that would be that people who are raised in a science-friendly non-religious way don't tend to have the tendancies you are saying are inevitable. Or rather, they have the questions, but are satisfied with non-mystical answers focuses on down here instead of up there.
Fair enough though, I do appreciate that you at least acknowledge some of the points made. I would encourage you to think about them though. If your version if theism is true, the questions I am answering )Edit, Asking! Geeze.) *should* have an answer, and there should be some objective way to winnow the theistic wheat from the chaff.
And you are doing better than Fonzie. Christ, what a joke. I have more respect for a theist who can say, "I don't know" than an endless procession of theists who never admit they don't know everything.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Musicdude,
From this last post to BobSpence1, can I safely assume you're a "once saved, always saved" Calvinist? If that's true, by your book most of us are going to heaven having accepted the salvation of Christ once before.
Now for the meat of the post"
1. So your God is so vain that not stroking his ego is a "bad decision" with "bad consequences"? And the punishment for not stroking his ego during our lives (the worst that the majority of us have done) is eternal? Or are you backpedaling on the importance of obedience?
2. How is an un-acted upon lust worse than actual rape, torture or slavery? Or is it eisegesis only when it applies to your dick? You wouldn't be the first Christian to hold that position.
3. You want rape, torture and slavery in Heaven? I thought those would qualify as being bad enough to not be included. Or is Yahweh just a sick puppy?
4. I don't have to worry about being judged. Neither do you (unless you picked the wrong God).
5. Mid 40s, 10 surgeries (2 for cancer) close enough? I've a strong feeling I'm closer than you've thought about, dude.
6. I'm glad you have supreme confidence in your guess of the right God - doesn't make it less of a guess and certainly doesn't make it knowledge.
7. I would only call NTS on you if you implied that you knew what the definition of a true Christian was.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Besides, I arrived at my main conclusions about death no my own. When I was thinking about these questions I didn't have an atheist community, I didn't even know one existed, so I did not have anyone to repeat.
It does gall me that theists presume to know what I am feeling though. But I guess it is par for the course and Fonzie does have that "True Believer" zealot vibe going when he writes.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Mellestad,
You talk of your "conclusions" as if you came up with something. You didn't. You just dismissed it as nothing but that of a beast. You come to the same fate - with the same understanding.
To date I don't know what about theists that doesn't gall you. Maybe it would be more efficient to mention that.
If I may jump in, what doesn't gall me about theists is that, if they are willing to value reason and evidence above fear and superstition, they can stop being theists.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.