Plenty of people are depressed and unfulfilled even with god.  I think, again, it simplifies the reality of the human experience to assume that only a particular mystical idea can satisfy a person in life.

When I was younger and still in (private, Christian) school, we were taught that every human is born with a hole in their heart that only God could fill.  Every other method of fulling that hole was temporary, shallow and futile.  The problem is when you actually go out and see the world the world shows the great lie of that idea.  Other religions fill that hole as well as any flavor of Christianity.  Other creeds, philosophies and goals can fill it just as well.  The truth is, that hole is simply the human desire for purpose, for meaning.  It is clear to me that a being finds its own meaning out a limitless buffet of potential meanings in life, rather than blindly stumbling around searching for one true meaning.

God is a flippant answer to a complex question that every human eventually asks if they are lucky enough to live long enough.  I know too many religious people who are still drifting in an uncontent sea, and I know too many secular people who are not.  The truth is some people are willing to accept religion as an answer to life's biggest questions, and some like myself see it is insufficient.  To me, God and Christ are like platitudes telling you how to live your life...shallow.

I am aware that people can create a religion around themselves that really does give their lives meaning.  I know many people who have.  But the bad part is most of them incorporate the idea that their way is the only way, even though their ideas are mutually exclusive.  There is a lot of ego in most theism.  Even the theists who think they are a piece of poo that God wants to send to hell usually think they are geniuses who have deciphered the true meaning of the universe.

I wonder if most traditional religions can exist after people let go of their ego and realize they are not brilliant philosophers with specific insight into the nature of reality, and that an all powerful being might not actually care, specifically, about what they do?

Of course, you aren't left with much if you give that up.  And I know, I know.  You are not full of ego, Christianity teaches you to be humble.  There is a special kind of arrogance in piety

mellestad wrote:

 

Plenty of people are depressed and unfulfilled even with god.  I think, again, it simplifies the reality of the human experience to assume that only a particular mystical idea can satisfy a person in life.

When I was younger and still in (private, Christian) school, we were taught that every human is born with a hole in their heart that only God could fill.  Every other method of fulling that hole was temporary, shallow and futile.  The problem is when you actually go out and see the world the world shows the great lie of that idea.  Other religions fill that hole as well as any flavor of Christianity.  Other creeds, philosophies and goals can fill it just as well.  The truth is, that hole is simply the human desire for purpose, for meaning.  It is clear to me that a being finds its own meaning out a limitless buffet of potential meanings in life, rather than blindly stumbling around searching for one true meaning.

God is a flippant answer to a complex question that every human eventually asks if they are lucky enough to live long enough.  I know too many religious people who are still drifting in an uncontent sea, and I know too many secular people who are not.  The truth is some people are willing to accept religion as an answer to life's biggest questions, and some like myself see it is insufficient.  To me, God and Christ are like platitudes telling you how to live your life...shallow.

I am aware that people can create a religion around themselves that really does give their lives meaning.  I know many people who have.  But the bad part is most of them incorporate the idea that their way is the only way, even though their ideas are mutually exclusive.  There is a lot of ego in most theism.  Even the theists who think they are a piece of poo that God wants to send to hell usually think they are geniuses who have deciphered the true meaning of the universe.

I wonder if most traditional religions can exist after people let go of their ego and realize they are not brilliant philosophers with specific insight into the nature of reality, and that an all powerful being might not actually care, specifically, about what they do?

Of course, you aren't left with much if you give that up.  And I know, I know.  You are not full of ego, Christianity teaches you to be humble.  There is a special kind of arrogance in piety

 

Mellestad,

It could be instead that the way to real life is too simple for man's ego to accept.  Faith in the living Christ is easily misunderstood for "religion".  "Religion" is nothing but taking the gospel and trying to make it an updated version of the old law.  That is a dismal trip indeed. 

Whereas "justification by faith in Jesus Christ" is a living spiritual connection with the living Christ accompanied by the work of the Holy Spirit.  It is a spiritual relationship to be received by a prepared people - a "new creation" where man has been restored in Christ to the state of the image of God, alive in Christ, born again, all thing made new. 

The life of faith starts small, like the small seed, and - it's vulnerable.  But as it grows and is weeded it becomes strong and the heart knows the voice of the Shepherd and the principle of faith not only breaks through the doubts and weaknesses of the old life and takes the ground of full assurance, but also is a governor on ego because righteousness by faith is always a gift.  Pride is a threat to the relationship with God in Christ and fought as the enemy it is. 

You mention religious people who are drifting and secular people who seem anchored.  Instead we preach Christ as the focus, the Lamb of God.  If you look at Him as He is you won't find any flaw in Him.  There's no flaw in the Sacrifice.  If you look at people there are different levels of maturity, but all are flawed to some degree. 

To focus on some form of religious ceremony or work as salvation is not much different than making a god out of science from the Scripture viewpoint.  That's as mistaken as trying to paint a dirty post with hard paint and a frozen brush - it doesn't work.  But to focus on the living Christ and have a living connection with Him, the Vine, is to know eternal life now.  It is to have your inner lamp fed with a steady supply of oil and resulting inner light.  The only way to have true peace is to trust in the atoning death of Christ, the Lamb of God.  The only way to be accepted in the marriage feast of God is to accept the Wedding Garment God offers - the Righteousness of God in Christ. 

It is believed with the heart more than understood - however I think there are many things that are that way.  We can believe things that we don't understand - for instance; that the world was spoken into existence in 7 days like Genesis says.  How could we understand that?  But I believe it and know it with my heart.  And this is a point of departure with atheists who don't have faith in the God of the Bible.  I do.  Some characterize that as arrogance - I see it as fact.  I have no doubts about Christ or creation or anything in Scripture being true - not that I understand it all or some of it like the Love of Christ at all.  But it works for me - and it is working.  It's ongoing. 

 

 

 

 

Fonzie wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

mellestad wrote:

 

Plenty of people are depressed and unfulfilled even with god.  I think, again, it simplifies the reality of the human experience to assume that only a particular mystical idea can satisfy a person in life.

When I was younger and still in (private, Christian) school, we were taught that every human is born with a hole in their heart that only God could fill.  Every other method of fulling that hole was temporary, shallow and futile.  The problem is when you actually go out and see the world the world shows the great lie of that idea.  Other religions fill that hole as well as any flavor of Christianity.  Other creeds, philosophies and goals can fill it just as well.  The truth is, that hole is simply the human desire for purpose, for meaning.  It is clear to me that a being finds its own meaning out a limitless buffet of potential meanings in life, rather than blindly stumbling around searching for one true meaning.

God is a flippant answer to a complex question that every human eventually asks if they are lucky enough to live long enough.  I know too many religious people who are still drifting in an uncontent sea, and I know too many secular people who are not.  The truth is some people are willing to accept religion as an answer to life's biggest questions, and some like myself see it is insufficient.  To me, God and Christ are like platitudes telling you how to live your life...shallow.

I am aware that people can create a religion around themselves that really does give their lives meaning.  I know many people who have.  But the bad part is most of them incorporate the idea that their way is the only way, even though their ideas are mutually exclusive.  There is a lot of ego in most theism.  Even the theists who think they are a piece of poo that God wants to send to hell usually think they are geniuses who have deciphered the true meaning of the universe.

I wonder if most traditional religions can exist after people let go of their ego and realize they are not brilliant philosophers with specific insight into the nature of reality, and that an all powerful being might not actually care, specifically, about what they do?

Of course, you aren't left with much if you give that up.  And I know, I know.  You are not full of ego, Christianity teaches you to be humble.  There is a special kind of arrogance in piety

 

Mellestad,

It could be instead that the way to real life is too simple for man's ego to accept.  Faith in the living Christ is easily misunderstood for "religion".  "Religion" is nothing but taking the gospel and trying to make it an updated version of the old law.  That is a dismal trip indeed. 

Whereas "justification by faith in Jesus Christ" is a living spiritual connection with the living Christ accompanied by the work of the Holy Spirit.  It is a spiritual relationship to be received by a prepared people - a "new creation" where man has been restored in Christ to the state of the image of God, alive in Christ, born again, all thing made new. 

The life of faith starts small, like the small seed, and - it's vulnerable.  But as it grows and is weeded it becomes strong and the heart knows the voice of the Shepherd and the principle of faith not only breaks through the doubts and weaknesses of the old life and takes the ground of full assurance, but also is a governor on ego because righteousness by faith is always a gift.  Pride is a threat to the relationship with God in Christ and fought as the enemy it is. 

You mention religious people who are drifting and secular people who seem anchored.  Instead we preach Christ as the focus, the Lamb of God.  If you look at Him as He is you won't find any flaw in Him.  There's no flaw in the Sacrifice.  If you look at people there are different levels of maturity, but all are flawed to some degree. 

To focus on some form of religious ceremony or work as salvation is not much different than making a god out of science from the Scripture viewpoint.  That's as mistaken as trying to paint a dirty post with hard paint and a frozen brush - it doesn't work.  But to focus on the living Christ and have a living connection with Him, the Vine, is to know eternal life now.  It is to have your inner lamp fed with a steady supply of oil and resulting inner light.  The only way to have true peace is to trust in the atoning death of Christ, the Lamb of God.  The only way to be accepted in the marriage feast of God is to accept the Wedding Garment God offers - the Righteousness of God in Christ. 

It is believed with the heart more than understood - however I think there are many things that are that way.  We can believe things that we don't understand - for instance; that the world was spoken into existence in 7 days like Genesis says.  How could we understand that?  But I believe it and know it with my heart.  And this is a point of departure with atheists who don't have faith in the God of the Bible.  I do.  Some characterize that as arrogance - I see it as fact.  I have no doubts about Christ or creation or anything in Scripture being true - not that I understand it all or some of it like the Love of Christ at all.  But it works for me - and it is working.  It's ongoing. 

 

 

 

 

I hate it when you do that.  We go for a couple messages and you almost start to talk like a normal person, then you flip a switch and it is like I can watch your eyes glaze over and you move from 'conversation' to 'zealot'.  It is like you give up even trying to convince anyone here and just start preaching. 

 

We don't walk far together because we are on different paths.  If I try to describe to you where you might have left the path you throw up your hands and say, "hey, I'm an atheist here".  The things that a person hates are often great needed things, avoided things, forgotten things.  I'm not trying to irritate you, but there is a fundamental difference between us that does by design.  I'm not asking you to be insincere or dance when I pipe.  I'm not planning to aim for what pleases you at the price of truth with me.  I don't hate it when you do that, why should you? 

 

 

 

The same can be said (and has been said) of you. When you engage in blatant mischaracterizations ( "Science is your God" ) or baseless assertions ( "you just can't be happy without my God" ) and get called on them, you go into this projection/martyr complex stuff ( "I'm trying to tell you where you got off my right and true path but you atheists just don't listen" )

We know why your path works for you and some have told you why it hasn't worked for them. Usually, you just tell those people that they're doing it wrong without telling them how to do it right. This leaves people with the view that you are holding yourself up as the shining beacon of how to life for Jesus.

You have said this is not your intent but you keep doing it. Would you like to correct this error?

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

mellestad wrote:

 

Plenty of people are depressed and unfulfilled even with god.  I think, again, it simplifies the reality of the human experience to assume that only a particular mystical idea can satisfy a person in life.

When I was younger and still in (private, Christian) school, we were taught that every human is born with a hole in their heart that only God could fill.  Every other method of fulling that hole was temporary, shallow and futile.  The problem is when you actually go out and see the world the world shows the great lie of that idea.  Other religions fill that hole as well as any flavor of Christianity.  Other creeds, philosophies and goals can fill it just as well.  The truth is, that hole is simply the human desire for purpose, for meaning.  It is clear to me that a being finds its own meaning out a limitless buffet of potential meanings in life, rather than blindly stumbling around searching for one true meaning.

God is a flippant answer to a complex question that every human eventually asks if they are lucky enough to live long enough.  I know too many religious people who are still drifting in an uncontent sea, and I know too many secular people who are not.  The truth is some people are willing to accept religion as an answer to life's biggest questions, and some like myself see it is insufficient.  To me, God and Christ are like platitudes telling you how to live your life...shallow.

I am aware that people can create a religion around themselves that really does give their lives meaning.  I know many people who have.  But the bad part is most of them incorporate the idea that their way is the only way, even though their ideas are mutually exclusive.  There is a lot of ego in most theism.  Even the theists who think they are a piece of poo that God wants to send to hell usually think they are geniuses who have deciphered the true meaning of the universe.

I wonder if most traditional religions can exist after people let go of their ego and realize they are not brilliant philosophers with specific insight into the nature of reality, and that an all powerful being might not actually care, specifically, about what they do?

Of course, you aren't left with much if you give that up.  And I know, I know.  You are not full of ego, Christianity teaches you to be humble.  There is a special kind of arrogance in piety

 

Mellestad,

It could be instead that the way to real life is too simple for man's ego to accept.  Faith in the living Christ is easily misunderstood for "religion".  "Religion" is nothing but taking the gospel and trying to make it an updated version of the old law.  That is a dismal trip indeed. 

Whereas "justification by faith in Jesus Christ" is a living spiritual connection with the living Christ accompanied by the work of the Holy Spirit.  It is a spiritual relationship to be received by a prepared people - a "new creation" where man has been restored in Christ to the state of the image of God, alive in Christ, born again, all thing made new. 

The life of faith starts small, like the small seed, and - it's vulnerable.  But as it grows and is weeded it becomes strong and the heart knows the voice of the Shepherd and the principle of faith not only breaks through the doubts and weaknesses of the old life and takes the ground of full assurance, but also is a governor on ego because righteousness by faith is always a gift.  Pride is a threat to the relationship with God in Christ and fought as the enemy it is. 

You mention religious people who are drifting and secular people who seem anchored.  Instead we preach Christ as the focus, the Lamb of God.  If you look at Him as He is you won't find any flaw in Him.  There's no flaw in the Sacrifice.  If you look at people there are different levels of maturity, but all are flawed to some degree. 

To focus on some form of religious ceremony or work as salvation is not much different than making a god out of science from the Scripture viewpoint.  That's as mistaken as trying to paint a dirty post with hard paint and a frozen brush - it doesn't work.  But to focus on the living Christ and have a living connection with Him, the Vine, is to know eternal life now.  It is to have your inner lamp fed with a steady supply of oil and resulting inner light.  The only way to have true peace is to trust in the atoning death of Christ, the Lamb of God.  The only way to be accepted in the marriage feast of God is to accept the Wedding Garment God offers - the Righteousness of God in Christ. 

It is believed with the heart more than understood - however I think there are many things that are that way.  We can believe things that we don't understand - for instance; that the world was spoken into existence in 7 days like Genesis says.  How could we understand that?  But I believe it and know it with my heart.  And this is a point of departure with atheists who don't have faith in the God of the Bible.  I do.  Some characterize that as arrogance - I see it as fact.  I have no doubts about Christ or creation or anything in Scripture being true - not that I understand it all or some of it like the Love of Christ at all.  But it works for me - and it is working.  It's ongoing. 

 

 

 

 

I hate it when you do that.  We go for a couple messages and you almost start to talk like a normal person, then you flip a switch and it is like I can watch your eyes glaze over and you move from 'conversation' to 'zealot'.  It is like you give up even trying to convince anyone here and just start preaching. 

 

We don't walk far together because we are on different paths.  If I try to describe to you where you might have left the path you throw up your hands and say, "hey, I'm an atheist here".  The things that a person hates are often great needed things, avoided things, forgotten things.  I'm not trying to irritate you, but there is a fundamental difference between us that does by design.  I'm not asking you to be insincere or dance when I pipe.  I'm not planning to aim for what pleases you at the price of truth with me.  I don't hate it when you do that, why should you? 

 

 

 

The same can be said (and has been said) of you. When you engage in blatant mischaracterizations ( "Science is your God" ) or baseless assertions ( "you just can't be happy without my God" ) and get called on them, you go into this projection/martyr complex stuff ( "I'm trying to tell you where you got off my right and true path but you atheists just don't listen" )

We know why your path works for you and some have told you why it hasn't worked for them. Usually, you just tell those people that they're doing it wrong without telling them how to do it right. This leaves people with the view that you are holding yourself up as the shining beacon of how to life for Jesus.

You have said this is not your intent but you keep doing it. Would you like to correct this error?

 

 

 

 

JcGadfly,

Good example of rolling the projector and projecting all the things you are doing on me.  Too late for this year's oscars.  I'll give you credit for "I think I can dance" but as far as substance answers - you're dancing on air.  I'll give you a chance to correct this error:

What is your hope beyond death?  (here's a follow - up:  If there's nothing beyond death for you why are you wasting time on this forum?)

 

 

 

jcgadfly wrote:

I'm glad you finally accept that you're ignoring the answers I and others have given you. Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

 

JcGadfly,

You know you always allude to this mysterious time - I think it was some time back when the world was evoluting - that you gave substance as to your position.  If you ever did I have no idea when it was nor what it was.  You're not sure of what you don't know - but if you hear it, it's preaching.  It's a nebulous state you protect vigorously.  

As to your questions I think what you mean by answers is your answers.  When I start giving you answers it's not what you want so of course you mischaracterize that.  Of course you know what you're doing - so I'll quit before I sound like a product of the US ad counsel. 

The admitting thing is good - just misapplied. 

 

 

Dragoon wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Also Bob, your beliefs do not require that your way is the only way to achieve happiness.

By default, Fonzie *must* believe his way is the only way because a central point of his dogma is that there is only one way to achieve happiness, and it is his way.

Hi Melle,

I think you have a major misunderstanding of Christianity here though. Christ did not come to bring happiness to man, nor is Christ the only way to happiness.

 

Christianity teaches that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah who brings reconciliation and peace between man and God. From this peace, certainly happiness, contentment and rest may and should come... but these things are not the reason for Christ, nor are they confined to those who follow Christ. Some Christians get a bit confused and try to say that only Christians can be 'happy' or 'good', but this is a misunderstandings of basic Biblical teachings. Hey... just because a person follows Christ doesn't mean they aren't still human!

I don't think your post is germane to the conversation we were having.  My response was within the context of the current back and forth with Fonzie, I was not attempting to make any comments on any general point.

Dragoon wrote:

Some interesting thoughts there, but they're predicated on an assumption though... that some physical manifestations are indicative of what love is itself; that love is nothing more than chemical. A better question may be, what is love?

Returning to the core issue though, even IF love is currently not addressed by science, does that make it mere speculation?

 

Bob, you comment that "the ongoing hope of Science is to progressively gain ever more accurate knowledge and insight into ever more aspects of "Life, the Universe, and Everything". Other than being a nice aside into the Hitchhikers Guide, if this is true, then isn't the question of God (whether such an entity exists, and what 'God' may be) rather central to it? I would also argue that there is no such thing as 'mere' speculation. Some of the greatest advances in science began with speculation. Take for example the question of mice and men...

 

Poor reasoning and comprehension there.

The assumptions are only that 'love' will probably be manifested in some way by observable aspects of behaviour, attitude toward the person who is the 'target' of the feeling, as indicated by such things as speech patterns, 'body language' etc. More intrusive tests such as scans for patterns of brain activity, and comparing them against scans of the same person and others in different emotional states would probably allow more insight into the intensity and other aspects of the particular feeling.

The assumption that science assumes that "love is nothing more than chemical" reveals your profound ignorance of science.

All strong general feelings involve various 'chemicals' which contribute to and enhance the overall emotional state, but they are in turn released by some other events in the brain. It would be a very crude misunderstanding for anyone to say that any 'chemical' IS the emotion it is associated with.

"Love" is a particular emotional state, normally involving a set of feelings toward another individual. Is that acceptable to you? "Love" can be studied by science, as can any other overtly expressed feelings. Brain scanning may even give a hint about suppressed feelings, as could carefully designed interview techniques. How would you 'know' someone was in love?

Anything manifest in the Universe can be studied. God as an idea, a belief, is studied. If and when there is indication that God actually manifests as a reality outside the minds of the believers, then it can be taken into account. SInce there is no real indication of anything which can be unambiguously understood as such, there is no need to treat it as some form of physical reality. 

The absence of such physical effects and manifestations in the increasingly detailed study of :Life, the Universe, and Everything" for something that, if it existed and was as fundamentally powerful and important as believers claim, is a pretty good justification for not taking the idea seriously.

All scientific theories begin with speculation, which leads to hypotheses, which suggests what and where to look for evidence to confirm or refute the ideas, but millennia of ultimately fruitless speculation about God has nod lead to any actual knowledge yet about the nature or reality of God. Without some actual empirical supporting evidence, no idea about reality deserves to be treated as more than speculation.

Meanwhile the importance of religion in culture and personal psychology is fully recognised and studied.

It is not a war. It is a struggle in search of truth.

Dragoon wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Dragoon wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Also Bob, your beliefs do not require that your way is the only way to achieve happiness.

By default, Fonzie *must* believe his way is the only way because a central point of his dogma is that there is only one way to achieve happiness, and it is his way.

Hi Melle,

I think you have a major misunderstanding of Christianity here though. Christ did not come to bring happiness to man, nor is Christ the only way to happiness.

 

Christianity teaches that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah who brings reconciliation and peace between man and God. From this peace, certainly happiness, contentment and rest may and should come... but these things are not the reason for Christ, nor are they confined to those who follow Christ. Some Christians get a bit confused and try to say that only Christians can be 'happy' or 'good', but this is a misunderstandings of basic Biblical teachings. Hey... just because a person follows Christ doesn't mean they aren't still human!

I don't think your post is germane to the conversation we were having.  My response was within the context of the current back and forth with Fonzie, I was not attempting to make any comments on any general point.

I think it does though Melle. Please let me explain.

What I mean is that one of your foundational premises about Christianity may be false. It may not directly impact the point you were making, but it likely affects the whole structure of your reasoning... which leads to the point you were making.

I still think it is not germane.  I was not talking about foundational premises of Christianity, I was talking about Fonzie.  Where did I lay any argument about generic Christianity?  I said, "His dogma" not "Christian dogma".

Although I do think that the point could be applied to many Christians.  It was certainly something I was taught to believe!  "God" was true happiness, love and goodness, and the only way to god was through Jesus.  Seems clear enough to me, I never heard anyone make it more complicated than that.  Anyone who did not fill their soul with the Christian version of god was incomplete, and longed for Christ by default.

Now if *you* don't agree with that statement, good for you, but I don't really care because your views were not what we were discussing.

I might also point out that 'observable, repeatable testing' does not disprove God. The choice is not between science and God. The choice is simply; do we accept what scripture says based upon all the resources at our disposal. 

Are you guys even reading what I wrote?  Do I need to use bold text?  I'll try it.

I never said anything about Christian belief, I was discussing Fonzie's debate with Bob and the way his responses seemed to show a specific way of thinking.

Did that help?  Come on guys.  I'm not mad, how is, "your point is not germane" equal to being angry?  I am getting frustrated though, so:

rant/

Honestly, no, I don't care about your specific interpretation of a single theistic issue outside the context of this discussion.  You think my childhood church and school taught incorrect Biblical doctrine,well bully for you.  Churches and theists have very disparate views on many issues.  You can start a new thread if you want but honestly my answer is going to be, "So what?".  If you feel the need you can debate with other theists about whether or not they are interpreting the Bible in the "True" way (your way) but please leave me out of it.

However, I will say, now, that many Christians will explicitly state this and I would argue that from a psychological perspective that it is a significant portion of the modern theistic perspective.  And if you think those Christians are wrong, well, again I don't particularly care whether or not you agree with them.  I don't have a stake in any particular denomination of Christianity, as I think they are all incorrect.

If you can show me where I claimed that a central point of generic Christian doctrine is: "The goal of Christianity is happiness through Jesus" then indeed I would be wrong in making such a general statement and I would be happy to rephrase it to: "The goal of many Christians is happiness through Jesus".  So, did I say that?

This comes back to the same problem when debating theists: It is easy to get sucked in to the details of a given theists belief, because they usually think their own personal or community viewpoint on theism is the only true, "Truth" and you can't listen to what all of those 'other' people think, because they don't *really* know what they are talking about. 

If I talk to, say 200 theists online in a given year there are probably 300 different mutually contradictory points of dogma brought up and they all say they are right because the Bible says so.  Which is why I don't care unless it comes to specific social issues I *do* care about.

/rant

Sorry for the misunderstanding then. If you weren't saying that about Christianity, but about one person's beliefs, then maybe you were right.

...No true Scotsman eats Haggis without salted eels on the side! 

Musicdude wrote:

Sorry for the misunderstanding then. If you weren't saying that about Christianity, but about one person's beliefs, then maybe you were right.

...No true Scotsman eats Haggis without salted eels on the side! 

I'm glad we cleared that up.

I agree with you though, most Christians don't know much about doctrine.  Honestly, most preachers and teachers are not interested in actually teaching about why people should believe what they are told to believe.  Church would be very different if that were the case.  It is sad that most people will say they believe something, but it takes a seminary student to explain *why* they believe what they believe.

Naturally, YMMV.

Musicdude wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Musicdude wrote:

Sorry for the misunderstanding then. If you weren't saying that about Christianity, but about one person's beliefs, then maybe you were right.

...No true Scotsman eats Haggis without salted eels on the side! 

I'm glad we cleared that up.

I agree with you though, most Christians don't know much about doctrine.  Honestly, most preachers and teachers are not interested in actually teaching about why people should believe what they are told to believe.  Church would be very different if that were the case.  It is sad that most people will say they believe something, but it takes a seminary student to explain *why* they believe what they believe.

Naturally, YMMV.

 

I'm really in the mood for some haggis for some reason.

 

I did the same thing for years. But when I decided to find out for myself why I believed what I do, it just made my faith that much more solid.

It started by aruging on Christian forums about doctrine. And I would argue points my pastor had taught me, it it quickly became obvious I seldom had a better answer than "because my pastor said so," which was disheartening. So I decided to dig into the bible myself, and see if the argument I was making really were backed up in the bible. Some of them were. Others weren't. But in doing that research I found that it was much more important to me what the bible said, than what any pastor or Christian said. And I would never take anyones word for anything again, except God's. Some would argue that I'm taking Paul's and John's and even Jesus' word for what really happened way back then. But God has sufficiently proven to me that the bible is not just the words of men, but God's word revealed to those men.

I did the same thing, except instead of "because my pastor said so" it was "because the Bible said so".  Same process, just one step further. 

mellestad wrote:

Musicdude wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Musicdude wrote:

Sorry for the misunderstanding then. If you weren't saying that about Christianity, but about one person's beliefs, then maybe you were right.

...No true Scotsman eats Haggis without salted eels on the side! 

I'm glad we cleared that up.

I agree with you though, most Christians don't know much about doctrine.  Honestly, most preachers and teachers are not interested in actually teaching about why people should believe what they are told to believe.  Church would be very different if that were the case.  It is sad that most people will say they believe something, but it takes a seminary student to explain *why* they believe what they believe.

Naturally, YMMV.

 

I'm really in the mood for some haggis for some reason.

 

I did the same thing for years. But when I decided to find out for myself why I believed what I do, it just made my faith that much more solid.

It started by aruging on Christian forums about doctrine. And I would argue points my pastor had taught me, it it quickly became obvious I seldom had a better answer than "because my pastor said so," which was disheartening. So I decided to dig into the bible myself, and see if the argument I was making really were backed up in the bible. Some of them were. Others weren't. But in doing that research I found that it was much more important to me what the bible said, than what any pastor or Christian said. And I would never take anyones word for anything again, except God's. Some would argue that I'm taking Paul's and John's and even Jesus' word for what really happened way back then. But God has sufficiently proven to me that the bible is not just the words of men, but God's word revealed to those men.

I did the same thing, except instead of "because my pastor said so" it was "because the Bible said so".  Same process, just one step further. 

 

It's not just the bible for me. It's my life. My personal experience may not prove God to anyone else, but it certainly proves Him to me.

Just like it proves Elvis, big foot, aliens, Allah, Joseph Smith, ghosts and everything else other people believe in.

But we've been over that before, so you don't need to try and show why your personal opininion is more accurate than a Muslim's.

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

You are basically saying the same as Fonzie - 'It works for you!". 

Which of course in no way proves that God exists as anything beyond a mental construct, a set of 'memes'. There is intrinsically and logically no way from such purely personal experience to distinguish between a complex psychological state and the effect of some entity that might exist in some external sense, especially from 'inside'.

But of course the conviction that God 'really' does exist is an essential part of the mental state, without which it would not work, so once in this state, you can't really even admit the possibility that he might not exist, or, as Daniel Dennett puts it, you will 'break the spell'.

 

BobSpence1,

I've admitted it's not possible for me to ignite faith or supply oil to the light in you Bob - I wish it was.  You have a lot of company sharing in your unbelief of Jesus, His atoning death, and Scripture - the Living Word,  but that doesn't represent a feather's (avoirdupois) weight against Whom I know I have believed, and live abundantly in.  Your company unknowingly actually support my Textbook cover to cover.  (You're covered as well)  

Obviously you've had some time since I ask you what your scientific answer to death was.  What are your results from that experiment?  Did you report or did I miss class that day?  I'm sure you have all that figured out since you're under no "spells", have an understanding of logic, mental construct, sets, states, and senses.  Rein this in for me - the simple - too stupid to be a man, without understanding.  Show me where you are going and why I should follow - you having ascended to heaven and come down,  gathering it all in your fist.  The doctor is in, let class begin...... 

 

 

 

 

 

Is this some sort of trick question?  What is there to explain about death?  Are you asking for details about the actual process?

Scientific 'answer' to death?

Our brain/mind stops functioning, along with the rest of our body, and our consciousness fades into the nothing it came from during our growth in our mother's womb and after.

As the philosopher Bertrand Russell said:

Quote:

I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive. I am not young and I love life. But I should scorn to shiver with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting. Many a man has borne himself proudly on the scaffold; surely the same pride should teach us to think truly about man's place in the world. Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cosy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigour, and the great spaces have a splendour of their own.

What 'experiment' did you have in mind??

 

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 

BobSpence1 wrote:

Scientific 'answer' to death?

Our brain/mind stops functioning, along with the rest of our body, and our consciousness fades into the nothing it came from during our growth in our mother's womb and after.

As the philosopher Bertrand Russell said:

Quote:

I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive. I am not young and I love life. But I should scorn to shiver with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting. Many a man has borne himself proudly on the scaffold; surely the same pride should teach us to think truly about man's place in the world. Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cosy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigour, and the great spaces have a splendour of their own.

What 'experiment' did you have in mind??

 

 

BobSpence1,

That's about as far as science can go with death - it's not something you get much practice at, so the scientific method doesn't bring back any reports about what's beyond it.  It's a fate we will all share, this we know.  The train is rolling down the track, the clock is ticking - I've been alive over 2 3/4 billion seconds, and they are ticking on and becoming less and less a percentage of my whole life. 

Then there's the philosopher who suggests - though he has no hope or answer - let a smile be your umbrella.  Carry your hopeless pride to the grave, don't let them see you sweat - bear yourself proudly on the scaffold so others will be emboldened to die without hope, without answer, keep the lie alive.  Though you are afraid, show no fear proud man.  Think about how real it has been proved by its unreal end.

For many of those 2 billion + seconds I was caught by death, chained by it.  I had an advance payment on it with more to come upon scientific annihilation.  The trap has been broken by Christ and I have escaped.  My spirit soars like a bird.  I am alive in the One Who has tasted Death for every man and Who is the Death of Death for all who have been "born again" in Him.  Death had no claim on Him - our Samson carried the gates, posts and hinges to the top of the hill. 

Death has no sting, no victory for those of us in Christ.  For about 1 1/2 billion seconds now I have been enjoying eternal life, which is knowing Christ alive in me.  I have an earnest of my inheritance now which I don't have to give back, the Gift of the Holy Spirit which I received when "born again" of the water and the Spirit.  My tent is getting a little worn, still portable, waterproof - but my tent is not me.  I am not hiding a lie in my tent with a front of false pride as my seconds tick steadily toward sleep with my fathers - those who shared like faith.  I'm looking forward to that but I'm in the greatest of company and joy now - Christ and the saints. 

I was just reading about the New Jerusalem - the new heaven and new earth (after this one has passed away).  The holy city, the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride dressed up for her husband.  Everything is new.  There's no temple - the LORD God Almighty and the Lamb are the Temple.  There's no street lights - the Glory of God is the light.  There's no night.  The gates are never shut.  The river of the water of life, clear as crystal flows through the center street with the tree of life on the sides.  Think how you will regret being kept out by boldly carrying a lie to death.  Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, fornicators, murderers, idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood proudly on the scaffold.