It works for me!
Offline
Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting. I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery. There is mystery everywhere though, right? I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus. I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that. But I highly recommend it from my experience with it. I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus. I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody. I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what? What is the purpose of this site? Do you have something better to offer? If so, what is your gospel?
- Login to post comments
All that you have presented is empty claims unsupported by reason.
I don't need your God nonsense in order to live as a decent human being.
My reformation was in casting off the lies of the Bible and learning to live as a self-responsible human being in harmony with my fellows as well as with my own needs and desires.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
What are your thoughts on this quote from Epicurus?
How long do you think humans have been around? Are you an young earth creationist? God created the universe about 6000 years ago?
How long have you been a follower of Christ?
Do you belong to a denomination? Which one?
Why do you think God hides himself? Why would He make belief before understanding a requirement when the fate of the eternal soul is at stake? Do you believe in a lake of fire that will burn for all eternity to contains those who rejected Christ?Describe the difference between a guilty conscience and a real sin-wounded conscience?
Please respond in non-Bible speak. That would really help.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
I'm reading this morning for one thing this proverb, "This is the way of an adulteress: she eats and wipes her mouth and says, 'I have done no wrong'." She has a view on what she's doing, you have a view on things you're doing, I have a view on things I'm doing. I have a high regard for everything that's in this book however. I view it all as true. I am totally confident I am right in that view. I am willing to submit my behavior and attitude and life to it in any way it can be shown me I need to change with what it says rightly understood. I believe it is all from God and totally true. Not only is it totally true this Book totally satisfies me in every way concerning everything I need to know about life. If this proverb were brought up to this lady mentioned, I wouldn't be surprised at her disdain for the view of this proverb. She might think the one who brought it up was arrogant. She might ridicule both. But it is possible that she would be represented later by the woman Jesus talked to at the well who connected with change in her heart. Now she had a passion for a new view of things, but she would still be surrounded by people who didn't regard Jesus or His Words as anything worth considering. Now some would be against her, some might call her arrogant for what she knows in her heart to be true. Such is life on the surface, yet deeper there is living water to be had.
"The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, searching all his innermost parts" (GOD) (my view is: I'm confident this is from God - I have no doubt)
If you feel the Bible offers all the wisdom you need, you're not only mistaken, you're a danger to society. If I were to write a book on morals today, I'm pretty sure I'd mention that rape, slavery, and incest are wrong. Your book condones all three. You are immoral, even compared to any atheist I've ever known. How do you justify that?
I hesitate to do this since you'll simply ignore me and preach anyway but...
Let's take these in reverse - Isn't it odd how this lamp of the Lord shows you nothing about yourself?
Is that because you only shine it out on others and don't use it for self examination?
Now for the other tripe. I don't think you're arrogant because you're saying things that disturb me or I hate you and your God. I call you arrogant because you suffer from the sin of pride. It is the ultimate irony that the sin that weighs you down stems from your belief that God loves you more than his other children. There may be living water to be had I just wish you'd quit urinating in the well. You're ruining it for those who may draw out after you.
If you really had a high regard for that book, Fonzie, you'd use it to examine yourself. Since it seems that all you wish to do is shine the light on others bad stuff so you can feel good in comparison, I can say you have as much regard for it as I do a newspaper wrapped around a rotten fish.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JonathanBC,
Ok, I think you're a little late for that but let's hear your first and last sentence. (no plagiarizing)
Let me save you some time. A while back in this thread he was asked if he would kill an innocent child if god asked him to. He dodged the question for a while, but finally answered "yes".
I'd call Poe here but I'm sure it's been done some pages back. I've only been following the thread for a few days. I appreciate Anonymouse pointing out that you're either entirely irrational or the greatest satirist of all time. I guessed as much, but that tells me enough to avoid this thread from here on.
To the insane, immoral, dangerous, deluded fellow quoted, you didn't answer my direct question. I will not answer yours.
Anonymouse could do well in mainstream news with his "pull quote" - out of context - "clip art" reporting. Another possibility is a global warming documentary.
Nothing against Anonymouse. Compared to some - he's a saint. Who knows.
It is enlightening that there is literally no way to tell the difference between a cult member and a fundamentalist like Fonz.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Fox, you mean ? Nah, I don't think they like atheists much.
The context was the question "would you kill an innocent child if god asked you to ?", which I mentioned, so it's not "out of context" at all.
Your answer was "yes".
Strange. You don't seem to remember threatening me.
Gee, Meph, you're so mellow all of a sudden. I guess you finally found the right lithium dosage. Still, remember to get regular blood checks, k ?
JonathanBC,
I thought I answered you directly. You said you could write a better book than God and I said "ok, let's hear the first line/last line". I thought you'd let it rip with something like: "This is Jonathan BC, god, a god even atheists will like (maybe not JCGadfly, but that's ok too), and I think you'll like my book; just for starters I don't like incest, slavery or rape." You can use/change/whatever any part of this if you want, no hard feelings.
Hope this helps-
Fonzie,
Have things gotten so bad that you're channeling Todd Friel?
"jcgadfly disagrees with me, doesn't want to kiss my butt and calls me arrogant. He must hate God."
Newsflash - you are not that important.
I'll also make a safe wager that you also don't understand why that thought is an arrogant one.
Lump me in with Gandhi - "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
I'd be in good company.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Fronzie,
I don't see a reply from you on this.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
ExMinister,
I will give you my opinion on your difficulties here - understand non of this is a problem or concern with me but I'll give a shot at it: There was a time that some men had too much time on their hands and wanted to build the highest skyscraper. The only problem was their elevator didn't go clear to the top floor, but that's another story. This wasn't where God wanted hobbyville so He went down there and scattered them by this means: He created a bunch of languages. Some of us ended up with English, others Espanol, others Navajo. Right now you and I are talking in English.
One of these guys, I don't know if he was English or something else - he just got to asking himself questions he couldn't answer, and it was kind of like the tower with the too-short elevator. He was long on questions but short on answers. There were some guys stuck on the same elevator and one guy phoned out these questions.
So they were using the King's English and trying to get to the top in a too short elevator altogether stuck with these questions. I forgot, they were also spinning around at 3000 mph (that's 4828.032 KM) under a blue sky rocketing through space breathing air and exhaling Co2.
They had questions but to those of us on the outside it was more important that they get out of that elevator and on the ground, maybe tilling the ground and raising a crop. They were wasting time up there and that's what we call "elevator time" in the business.
I think God was able to put enough sense in their head to quit letting these questions bother them and get out of that elevator! There are better pursuits - I'm sure you would agree - than being stuck a couple floors short with questions in an elevator. They've been stuck a long time. I was stuck myself once. Actually bumped my head when it stopped, but it doesn't hurt now. It was a pretty deep bruise. It's ok now.
As far as the hot bearings in the middle of the earth spinning on its axis - you see all those oil derricks pumping the oil out of the bearings. You know what's going to happen eventually brother. It's going to get HOT.
ExMinister,
I hope I've helped you here, I tried to not talk Bible speak, etc, but yours were hard to answer without getting dangerously close. Hope I didn't get too close for you.
Well, I took your prior statement in good faith. You wrote "Sure, what did you want to talk about? "
I then considered carefully what would be the things I would want to know about you. I took a day or two to consider. To make sure I didn't ask something that you had already stated I read through nearly all your postings. I started to realize you don't reveal anything about yourself. Being a former Christian, I surmised you are "swallowed up in Christ". So, I knew I had to make my questions as direct as possible. Asking if you believe in YEC, hell-fire and what denomination you were would provide little or no wiggle room. But you answered more like I expected than hoped. A parable, cookies and milk, please. I give you a gold star for creative effort and avoiding bible-speak, but nothing for meaningful communication. Bottom line I gather from your response, recognizing the tower of Babel reference, your God is the author of confusion despite what other text may say, don't ask questions, check your brain at the door, surrender, bow and believe, otherwise you will burn.
Would that sum it up?
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
LOL
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
I'm with NoDeity: LOL
I wasn't going to come back, but this is too much fun, and I've been drinking. It was worth it for the chuckle!
There is no God, so he couldn't write a book. I was referring to the Bible, which was written by humans. Guess you had a different book in mind. Sorry. My mistake.
But if I were to write a book, the first line would be a dedication to you, sir! That's how I'd start it.
What do you think so far? Oh, and I'm working on another book. It starts out "Call me Ishmael." Could you maybe review it?
JcGadfly,
There are things you maybe think you would enjoy but I want to be clear: I wouldn't, JcGadfly. In fact, I think we've seen clearly that if you like something - I don't. You say "yes", I say "no". Maybe you're working on a nuclear rocket meaning of life shipment over there but I'm not even going to get under a desk. Your guns are rubber band guns. There's been no substance in any of your argument shipments to date. And BTW you're in your own company and that's bad/good enough for you, unfortunately.
(I guess when it comes to things getting bad you would be the resident expert however and speak for your side here, there and everywhere and whatever enemy you're kissing wherever. But please don't tell me about it.)
Are you ignoring the substance in the arguments that I and others have made because they scare you?
Or is it because your arrogance provides you a delusion of adequacy?
Is sacrificing thinking for happiness really a good trade?
You think I'm trying to attack you when all I want is for you to take a good hard look at yourself.
I know it can be frightening - I was a Christian before I examined myself and realized I was letting others think for me.
I can only hope you can do the same - I fear you're too addicted to the religion you've created to take that risk.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JcGadfly,
The principle you are running with is the "big lie" - a lie so outlandish and far-fetched that no one would think anybody would have the audacity to tell such a lie so the simple might think for that reason it is true. You assume since you aren't sure of anything if someone is that one is arrogant. I can evaluate my situation in all honesty and in the light of truth which is illustrated in part by the fact that I don't come on and keep you at arm's length and make it about attacking you and not telling you what my confidence is based on. I have told you what I am about and will do it again. You are the one hiding behind the tree.
We've had some fun, true, but I have laid out substance in Christ. What the conscience wants to see in all honesty and truth is how a just God will punish sin. Through the eyes of faith the conscience sees that in the atoning and willing sacrifice of heaven's best - Christ lifted up on the Cross for our sins. Through faith the conscience can have that and be at peace.
Outside things, such as helping out your fellow man, are important and good and evidence that faith is real, but our relationship with God is not built on those things. Idolatry has an appearance of righteousness, but it is a mirage. A man could work himself to the bone trying to get peace in good works but it would never be enough. The soul and conscience and heart and mind of man find true peace through faith in Christ. That's substance.
You say you were a Christian. I wonder if you ever experienced this peace - or didn't get all the enemies run out of your "promised land". I also wonder what you think of that scripture that says that if it's true you were a Christian and gave up you are worse now than an infidel - and it's impossible to bring you to repentance? (I would take that to mean it's impossible for me or you or others but all things are possible with God). It's a big hole you are in.
And all I have to do is be like...you.
Not like Christ, not like God - you.
If idolatry is such a sin, why do youi want me to worship you?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
There's a thread of thought running through this discussion. It runs something like this;
Atheism is rational. Faith in God is irrational.
Atheism is intelligent and intellectual. Faith in God is the opposite.
Quite simply, this line of reasoning is wrong. There are intelligent people on both sides of the faith divide. What separates them is not rationalism, intellect or education, but rather what evidence (not usually in the empirical sense) they have chosen to accept as factual.
It's more along these lines:
Faith is a belief in something without or contrary to evidence. Skeptics need evidence to form opinions and conclusions.
Theists have faith in God while having no evidence of his existence or ignoring evidence that there is no God (or if there is a God, he is not worthy of worship). Atheists see no evidence and have no belief.
This differs from Fonzie's "If you're not in lockstep with me, you hate God" that he swiped from Todd Friel.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
That's a bit unfair, to say the least. There's quite a lot of history between some of the people in this thread. Years worth of discussions, in some cases. I'd read the entire thread first before making comments like that.
JcGadfly,
I don't want you to worship me but rather Christ; however, you know that. I understand this is just your tree to get behind. "Hi JcGadfly! Next time pick a real tree!"
I wonder if you would do a run down of: who's arrogant/ who's not arrogant?
Here's a list for starters: Jesus - arrogant or not?
Pat Condell - arrogant or not?
Dan Rather - arrogant or not?
David Letterman - arrogant or not?
Howard Dean - arrogant or not?
Mohamed Ali - arrogant or not?
Anonymouse - arrogant or not?
Me - (you've already answered this one, go to next)
You - arrogant or not?
The celebs you list and Jesus - I never met them in person so I have no idea whether they're arrogant or not (neither have you most likely so you can't say for sure either).
Anony - never met him but he doesn't seem arrogant from his postings.
You - never met you either but your postings do seem arrogant.
Me - on some things - yes (working on those) on other things I lack confidence (the Christians taught me too well).
I'd ask you to play but I fear your criterion would be "do I like what they have to say?"
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
JcGadfly,
I didn't have anything in mind. I just threw that list together. The only One I'm sure about in the list is Jesus - He's exactly on target on everything, Perfect. (For that you can say I'm arrogant, sigh - but I have my view on that and you can have yours). I think with everyone else on that list it is hard to distinguish between passion and convictions that spring maybe from hard experience. I think to be sure somebody was arrogant the one making the call might have to be somewhat arrogant themselves (unless somebody makes it too easy, ha)
I don't see myself as arrogant; however I would have to be arrogant to dogmatically say I'm not - so maybe I am! If so I don't want it to be! I wonder if you could factor out the arrogant part of me you see that I don't (a person never sees the other side, the outside looking in clearly) and describe and magnify the arrogance in me to me you see such that maybe I - even steeped in my arrogance - could see it and hate it myself, which I would like to do if it's there. I think a person could easily think less or more of themselves than they should think - either would be off target.
So you can have a heyday on that and parade my arrogance (myself being the grand marshal, you with the bullhorn) so we can eliminate this weak member of the herd and the coyotes can have lunch.
Jesus?
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
- John 14:6
Yep, arrogant.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
NoDeity,
The Father gave Him all power and authority in heaven and on earth. Right after that He washed the disciple's feet. Peter didn't want Him to then changed his mind.
Then He took a beating for them and us (you, too). Then He let them crucify Him for them and us (you too). There we see how God will punish sin yet be merciful - yes, we can come to God only through the Door, Christ.
It's not arrogant.... just true.
The concept of purging one's sins thru punishment or sacrifice of another person is a vile, primitive idea with no logical justification.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
The lack of sound reasons for thinking that any of that is true makes your assertion not especially compelling, if I may be excused for a bit of understatement.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
Look at JCGadly's comment (#825) directly above your post. That's why I'm making that assertion, though please note that I say it is A thread, not the only one.
Those lines are false ones though.
(Christian or other religious) Faith is not belief without or contrary to evidence, though it is sometimes belief without scientific evidence. Every person forms their beliefs based upon evidence... we just don't all agree on whether the evidence is valid.
There is more than one context for 'evidence'. In most cases above, you are referring to scientific evidence. Yet on that same basis, there is no scientific evidence DISPROVING God either. There is an absence of scientific/empirical evidence in this regard.
This does not 'prove' God, but my point is not to prove God.
My point is simply that neither Atheism or Theism is 'more' intelligent or more based upon 'evidence'. Both are beliefs based upon the best judgement (of available empirical and non-empirical evidence) of the individuals involved.
----
Why do you feel the need to critique Fonzie's position in this discussion by the way? Perhaps we should ask him how he'd summarize his position in his own words.
Fonzie?
Fonzie invited it in his opening post. He initiated these conversations.
He did that in his opening post.
Reality is the graveyard of the gods.
There are an infinite number of things which possibly could exist but we cannot prove do not exist.
To believe in something for which there is no evidence and justify that by saying we cannot DISPROVE it is really, really stupid.
Evidence for something existing outside your own mental world must be justified by reference to something outside your own internal experience, that other people not sharing the same preconception can attest to. To claim otherwise is to be logically obliged to accept an enormous range of incredible things that at least one person has claimed to have experienced, including virtually every alien abduction ever reported.
To verify that something is really not just a figment of your own imagination requires independent checking, which is the basis of the scientific method.
So insistence that something that is not just a concept in your own mind actually exists requires the application of scientific method. That is why it was developed.
Personal conviction of the reality of anything is, by itself, virtually worthless.
A person will normally have reasons for believing something, but doesn't mean those reasons deserved to be treated as evidence for the truth of the belief.
The scientific method, at its core, is a systematic way to filter out the effects of personal bias and errors of perception, and all the failings that our finite minds are susceptible to.
So in the God debate, the Atheist position is vastly more defensible, in the absence of evidence that can pass the most basic tests of scientific standards of evidence. The enormous implications of the reality or otherwise of such an entity demand that the standard of evidence be quite high.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Well then, read the rest of JC's comments (that should take a while), and you'l have a clearer idea of just what is being discussed between him and "Fonzie". You will notice JC asks a lot of questions, but doesn't get a lot of answers.
BobSpence1,
Science can do well in its field but there is a fence around that field that I think you try to jump over when you apply it to God and spiritual things. There are things that science is mystified by and maybe honest about that, maybe not at times. Just as you would require faith in God to stay in its place (such as; stay out of politics and in that I would agree) the same needs to be applied to science. You are asking more of science than it has to give when it comes to proving/disproving God. From my viewpoint science is part of the orchestra praising God - but I didn't get my proof from science. I was moved by the power of the gospel - a spiritual message with spiritual power.
Anything that cannot be addressed by the scientific method, ie independent evidence, does not warrant being taken as more than speculation.
The fence is around anyone believing in stuff just because it 'works for them'. Unless they have tried a range of other world-views, they have no way to know that some other belief system may work even better.
Those who believe in nonsense, even comforting nonsense, need to be kept away from any impact on the real world, less their mistaken beliefs lead to do something really unfortunate for those people struggling to mange an increasingly complex world, which does not forgive mistakes, no matter how comforting those beliefs for the person concerned.
Science concerns itself with reality and truth, as near as we can get to it, religion is about comforting fantasies.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Yet I don't see "If you're not in lockstep with me, you hate God" in Fonzie's opening... which is how JCGadfly is summarizing his position.
Fonzie invited us to answer several questions... but I don't think he ever asked people to state his position with words he has not used. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that last point.
My wife loves me.
Can this statement be tested using truly scientific methods? If it cannot, then does that mean it should be mere speculation?
I agree entirely with what you are saying, WHEN applied to those fields where the scientific method is applicable, but there are many areas in which science does not speak to us. The question of God is one of those.
There is still 'evidence'... but that evidence is not from the scientific method.
As an adjunct, I'd ask about history or other social sciences as well. The dominant theories in these fields are certainly more than mere speculation (as there are obviously more and less valid arguments). Yet none of them are built upon the scientific method of empirical testing. The nature of 'evidence' changes when discussing different fields.
I see you haven't bothered reading much but the OP. I felt the description of his channeling Todd Friel was apt given that he tends to take questions about his religion as an attack on his person. My problem has never been with Fonzie's religion, simply with his ham-fisted approach to proselytizing.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
You don't see it because you haven't read the whole thread yet. JC has been talking to this guy for many years now. If anyone's qualified to summarise his position, it's JC, and he's been more than fair.
One of the things you might like to do, while reading through this thread, is count how many of JC's questions "Fonzie" has completely ignored.
That alone should take a while.
Why wouldn't this be subject to scrutiny? Just define what you mean by love and I bet we could test it. We can anylyze brain chemistry and MRI type stuff when she thinks about you or sees pictures of you. We could build a case study of her behavior in relation to you.
Why would love be outside of science? Love happens inside brains and brains are real things covered by science.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Not all science is done in a lab. The things you do for each other that are done in public - that's observable evidence which can be evaluated using the scientific method.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
then again, there is a little cynical piece of me that is tempted to check to see if Dragoon has Fonzie's hand up his back. I hope that piece is wrong.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Right. Science only requires that something be independently observable, at least in principle.
Thanks to modern techniques, such emotional states are being measured and inferred all the time, both by observation of behaviour and by brain scanning techniques.
If you love your wife, but never mention it or change your behaviour in any way based on it, we may indeed need a brain scanner, but can you really imagine you would actually behave that way, and could you accurately be described as being in love if you never expressed it in any way??
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
BobSpence1,
So is your science bible: 1 & 2 Chemistry, 1,2 & 3 Physics, General Science, Reason, 1. 2 and 3 Math, Electronics, Computer, Hydraulics, Kinesiology, etc?
What would be your equivalent to Genesis and Revelation?
Is there a savior or, if not, what is the focus point of the god of science?
What is the end hope of science?
Are there different churches of science? If so are they in harmony with each other?
As opposed to the books of blood, death and sorcery you follow, Fonzie? Ironic how sorcery is a sin unless your God is the practitioner.
Why do we need an equivalent for Genesis and Revelation? One is a compilation of older creation myths and the other is an interesting piece of fiction written by a guy who was stoned on mushrooms. They also fall into the aforementioned "Magic's not a sin if God does it" provision.
Science offers knowledge, opportunities to better ourselves and a chance to leave the place we're living better than we found it. That is, if the theists and the power-hungry (often the same people) don't let their fear and greed keep science from doing its job. Doesn't sound better than sitting on your haunches waiting to be saved because you believe you can go to a beautiful place after you're dead?
The end hope - improve the lives of our generation now and future generations later. Again, isn't that better than cheering on the end of the world just so you can believe you have a pretty place after you're dead?
Science needs no church. Scientists have their disagreements and make mistakes - That's what research and peer review do check for errors and keep harmony on the essentials. Don't you wish Christians and other theists could do that instead of each little splinter group insisting on the rightness of their cause?
Wait. Maybe you don't.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Science works precisely because it does NOT have any equivalents of those things. There is no prime document which must be deferred to at all times. All scientific documents are open to continual revision in the light of new discoveries.
The ongoing hope of Science is to progressively gain ever more accurate knowledge and insight into ever more aspects of "Life, the Universe, and Everything".
People and groups are free to pursue different approaches to investigate things, and scientific institutions provide mechanisms for the findings of these different groups to be compared, with as many people as practical, who know something about the particular subject, to offer their assessment. Scientists in then try to work toward a consensus which may eventually endorse one theory as clearly the one best supported by the experimental and observational data. If one theory cannot be seen as clearly the best, they then try and devise further tests to see which one works best, which bets fits the results of experiments or new observations, and if possible makes predictions which turn out to be accurate.
People who produce ideas that provide much better explanations by completely overturning established ideas are celebrated as heroes, not condemned as heretics.
We have no equivalent of Genesis or Revelation, which are probably the most mistaken chapters in the Bible. If anyone produced any theory remotely resembling those chapters, it would be laughed out of the room as everyone pointed out how nonsensical it was. They would require a vast amount of evidence, unlike those Bible chapters, which simply state things as truths with no attempt to justify the statements.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology