It works for me!

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It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


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Dragoon wrote:jcgadfly

Dragoon wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Or (as his works were written prior to the gospels) they were trying to provide a back story and a "human" face to the religion that Paul of Tarsus created.

None of the gospel writers were eyewitnesses to the events they wrote on. They grafted Jesus into the messianic prophecies (poorly) to try and convince the Jews that Messiah had come.

I never argued that they didn't believe in what they were selling - I only said that they were selling a product. It's good to believe in your product - it makes it easier for people to buy it.

Hi JC,

Why do you think they were not eye-witnesses to the events covered in the gospels?

 

Did Saul/Paul 'create' a religion? There are those who seek to portray the teachings of Paul as contrary to those of Jesus, but I don't see this at all. Peter writes that 'our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do other Scriptures, to their own destruction.' (2Pe3:15-16)

Why in the world would the early followers of Christ seek to do anything to help Paul/Saul? He hunted them down and persecuted them.

 

If the Apostles believed that Jesus was the Messiah, then they would not have followed any religion that 'Paul created'. If the Apostles did not believe that Jesus was the Christ, then they would have no reason to 'sell' or die for His name.

We can't have it both ways.

 

I think the scenario that best fits the evidence is that the Apostles did fully believe that Jesus was the Christ, and that he was raised from the dead. Whether we believe that though, or in Jesus as God's perfect sacrifice because of His love for us.... that's a decision we have to make on our own.

Why would an eye-witness wait 40 years to write about such important people and events? Especially when contemporary historians didn't mention them at all?

Did Paul create a religion? As his works existed decades before the gospels, it leads that way. Would they follow the religion of a former persecutor? Probably not - that's why I consider that story an embellishment to show the power of the new religion. Kind of like the testimonies that start out with how rotten of a sinner the testifier used to be before god miraculously changed them. Add in that Mark was likely written by John Mark (Paul's fellow traveler) anonymously and more strength comes to that argument.

You asked a good question there - did the apostles believe Jesus was Messiah? Or did they write up a character which borrowed liberally from the resurrection stories of other gods to make a teacher they liked more special? They could have done both. So yes you can have it both ways. Their martyrdoms were not for the beliefs as much as they ticked off those in power. Rome didn't care about their beliefs until they needed to protect against their own incompetence. They were scapegoated, yes, but not for the belief in their particular brand of magic. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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NoDeity wrote:NoDiety

NoDeity wrote:

NoDiety wrote:

Dragoon wrote:

Favourable???? LOL Absolutely not!

I was well off financially, was having fun with friends, women and just 'being me', and then God keeps stepping into the picture and saying, "Wait. I'm real. What are you going to do about it."

Maybe that's how the gospel writers met Jesus as well... challenging them from the safety of their preconceptions and old lives.

So you had no experience with God in your life and yet God decided to introduce himself to you without you seeking him?

Forgive me for letting you know that rings very false.

As for the writers, it was less of a challenge for them and more of them trying to sell a religion.

Dragoon wrote:
Please read the message over again. I didn't say 'no experience', just nothing that was easily classed as "something favorable happen." I'd hope something I didn't say would ring false Eye-wink

 

I'm not sure how you quantify the gospel writers as trying to 'sell a religion'. They didn't found a new religion, to them they were still Jews, and Jesus was the promised Messiach. They certainly believed the message that Christ gave them, and believed quite strongly that he had truly risen from the dead.

The author of Luke, according to the New Testament, may have been Greek (i.e. not a Jew).

 

Dragoon wrote:
Seriously... you have

1) simple people

Luke is supposed to have been a doctor.  However, the authorship of the gospels is unknown so any claim about the nature of the authors of those four books is speculation.  Further to that, since we cannot say who the authors were, those authors cannot reasonably be described as eye witnesses.

Yes, Luke was most likely a physician, which would have made him an exception among the Apostles. Similarly, he likely was a Gentile... but that still leaves the other 11 Apostles and Paul, so perhaps I should say 'mostly' simple men, and all Jews except 1.

As to the authorship of the gospels, I think we have far more than speculation. We have the letters themselves, which often identify or otherwise give clues as to the identities of their authors. We also have early Christian writings, which affirm authorship (ie Irenaeus, Muratorian Canon, etc.)

 

NoDiety wrote:

 

Dragoon wrote:
2) their leader has just been arrested and crucified

 

The gospels were written decades after those events are supposed to have occurred, so it is not true that their leader had just been arrested and crucified.  

 

Dragoon wrote:
They should have faded away, been discouraged, and fallen apart. Instead;

1) their numbers grow rapidly

2) they spread throughout the region and later the world

Largely through the work of one man who shaped the new religion: Paul.  Paul, by the way, was well-educated (i.e. not a simple man).

 

Dragoon wrote:
3) they endure hardship and eventual painful deaths

Lots of religions have martyrs.

 

Dragoon wrote:
4) they write accounts of Jesus resurrection which, if false would have been easy for contemporaries to attack

Isn't it funny that there are absolutely no historical accounts of the dramatic events of the resurrection that were written at the time it supposedly occurred?

 

Dragoon wrote:
I'm not sure how you quantify "less of a challenge for them." If they didn't believe in what had happened to Christ, we would expect at least some of them to have run or abandoned the faith as soon as there was time of hardship. We can disagree on whether WE believe in a risen Christ, but I'm not sure how a person could argue that the Apostles did not.

Again, lots of religions have martyrs.

Lots of religions have martyrs.

Why was there a 'religion' though? To say that these people were martyrs for their faith, is also to say that they HAD incredibly strong faith.

Why would they have that faith if their 'religion' was merely the creation of a crazy Jew Saul? Why would they have faith if their leader was recently crucified? Even if Jesus was crucified a decade or two before, this would certainly still be 'recent' in the minds of those around him. Look at how long the death of JFK, Martin Luther King, and even Jim Morrison resonate across the decades. More importantly, there would still be living eye-witnesses able to contradict any falsehoods attributed to Jesus by these writers.

Why exactly would Saul; a Jew among Jews, trained under Gamelial, zealous for the law... why would he found a 'new' religion in opposition to Judaism? If he did, why would those he persecuted adopt HIS religion? I think Paul's own account rings more true. Something incredible happened to him on the road to Damascus, and there he accepted that the one he was persecuting was the Messiah.

 

We have very few ancient historical accounts of 'great' events in history from 2000 years ago. We have only Caesar's rather self serving account for the seige of Alesia for example. To claim that we have no records of Jesus from 'the time' is rather a false analogy. The Gospels may have been put to pen a few decades later, but as evidenced by the hypothetical 'Q' gospel, it is generally recognized that they were based upon previous accounts. These accounts may well have been oral, and only put down in written form later. From the rapid spread of 'Christianity' though, we can surely say that the subject of Jesus' crucifiction was well and surely 'discussed' by contemporaries.


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Why make a religion?1. It

Why make a religion?

1. It provides an explanation for natural phenomena based on limited scientific knowledge.

2. It's a way to grapple with large concepts where one doesn't see another answer.

3. It's an excuse for some people to do atrociously evil things.

4. It's an incentive for some people to do good things.

5. It provides comfort and the occasional warm fuzzy feeling to feel like an all-powerful thing gives a rip about you.

Need more?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Dragoon wrote: If you

Dragoon wrote:
If you belonged to Christ, then I have perfect faith as well that you will return to him. The Spirit is merely God's seal upon us, guaranteeing what is to come (2Co1:22, Eph 4:30).

I have confidence that, unless I become afflicted with some disorder that severely compromises my ability to reason, I will not "return to him".

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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Dragoon wrote: Yes, Luke was

Dragoon wrote:
Yes, Luke was most likely a physician, which would have made him an exception among the Apostles. Similarly, he likely was a Gentile... but that still leaves the other 11 Apostles and Paul, so perhaps I should say 'mostly' simple men, and all Jews except 1.

As to the authorship of the gospels, I think we have far more than speculation. We have the letters themselves, which often identify or otherwise give clues as to the identities of their authors. We also have early Christian writings, which affirm authorship (ie Irenaeus, Muratorian Canon, etc.)

For the authorship of the gospels, I think that what we mostly have is tradition.  Mark is considered to be the oldest of the four gospels and the earliest evidence that identifies "Mark" as the author comes from Papias of Hierapolis in the 2nd century. So, the information is necessarily second hand, at best.  Matthew and Luke are widely thought to have been based on Mark.  As for the books attributed to John, their authorship has been disputed from as far back as at least the 3rd century.

Biblical scholars are pretty confident that Paul wrote most of the letters attributed to him.  There is significant doubt about Colossians and there is strong agreement that Hebrews was not written by Paul but the authorship of the rest of the Pauline works seems fairly secure.

 

Dragoon wrote:
"Lots of religions have martyrs."

Why was there a 'religion' though? To say that these people were martyrs for their faith, is also to say that they HAD incredibly strong faith.

Why would they have that faith if their 'religion' was merely the creation of a crazy Jew Saul? 

The origins of Mormonism are plainly ridiculous and yet it it has grown very impressively.  Peter Popoff was exposed as a fraud in the '80s and declared bankruptcy but he has become a millionaire again because he has been able to persuade so many people to believe in him to the point that they sacrifice their savings for him (his strategies mostly target the poor).  Many millions of people believe in obviously nonsensical ideas such as astrology and homeopathy.  Parents who are Jehovah's Witnesses have been willing to let their children die rather than allow them to receive medical treatments that are forbidden by their church doctrines.  There is something about the human brain that tends to make us eager to believe, even sometimes at a horrible cost.

 

Dragoon wrote:
Why would they have faith if their leader was recently crucified? Even if Jesus was crucified a decade or two before, this would certainly still be 'recent' in the minds of those around him. Look at how long the death of JFK, Martin Luther King, and even Jim Morrison resonate across the decades. More importantly, there would still be living eye-witnesses able to contradict any falsehoods attributed to Jesus by these writers.

The growth of early Christianity occurred mostly outside of Israel and the authors of the gospels are not thought to have done their writing in Israel.  Paul certainly focused his work on Gentiles.  Since people of that time didn't have the Internet or even newspapers and the writers were working at a distance from the location of the purported events they were describing, it seems unlikely to me that the authors of most of the books of the New Testament needed to worry much about being contradicted by potential eye witnesses.

 

Dragoon wrote:
Why exactly would Saul; a Jew among Jews, trained under Gamelial, zealous for the law... why would he found a 'new' religion in opposition to Judaism? If he did, why would those he persecuted adopt HIS religion? I think Paul's own account rings more true. Something incredible happened to him on the road to Damascus, and there he accepted that the one he was persecuting was the Messiah.

The account of Paul's conversion experience reads very much like a psychotic break, which really would explain a lot.  The bout of what sounds a lot like hysterical blindness following the "encounter" on the road to Damascus certainly fits that hypothesis.  In ancient times, episodes of psychosis were not understood as well as they are today and were generally believed to be of supernatural origin.  In the mind of the person experiencing them, hallucinations and delusions can be as "real" as the ordinary experience of our senses is to you and me.  Taking all that together, I think we have a reasonable explanation of why Paul might have completely believed his own story and why others would have also believed in him.
 

 

Dragoon wrote:
We have very few ancient historical accounts of 'great' events in history from 2000 years ago. We have only Caesar's rather self serving account for the seige of Alesia for example. To claim that we have no records of Jesus from 'the time' is rather a false analogy. The Gospels may have been put to pen a few decades later, but as evidenced by the hypothetical 'Q' gospel, it is generally recognized that they were based upon previous accounts. These accounts may well have been oral, and only put down in written form later.

To compare the events surrounding the supposed crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus to accounts of ancient kings and battles and such is a false analogy.  Unlike the Jesus story, those events describe ordinary events -- that is, they are events that are not significantly different from our ordinary experience of human life.  Claims about ordinary events can be provisionally accepted on weaker evidence than claims about extraordinary events.  Since I live in northern British Columbia, if I told you I saw a moose crossing the road recently, it would be quite reasonable for you to accept that story at face value.  However, if I told you I saw a Sasquatch, I hope that you'd be rather skeptical about it.  (The line between ordinary and extraordinary may be a bit fuzzy but the supernatural events described in the various stories about Jesus clearly are not close to the gray area.)

 

Dragoon wrote:
From the rapid spread of 'Christianity' though, we can surely say that the subject of Jesus' crucifiction was well and surely 'discussed' by contemporaries.

Yes but, as I explained above, not necessarily by potential eye witnesses.

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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FAITH SUPPORTED ON ROCK OF CHRIST

NoDeity wrote:

Perhaps you should have made it more clear that what you were saying is that it's not good to go against your conscience.  That's something I can agree with with.  Because I value truth and reason and because I respect scientific methods of investigation, for me to accept something purely on faith, as you clearly do, would be to violate my conscience in such a way that I could no longer respect myself.  If I were to espouse your beliefs, I would have to consider myself untrustworthy and morally corrupt.

 

NoDeity,

The supports for real faith are very real.  They are just spiritual rather than material or "feeling based". 

Your avatar is a man playing a guitar - don't know if that's you or not - but music is musically supported and musically discerned.  You can discern a supporting cord or a discord. 

Faith is also supported - but by spiritual things that are spiritually discerned.  Those who don't have the gift of the Spirit aren't equipped to discern them - and confidence won't change that any more than those auditioning on American Idol that can't sing but are confident. 

The gift of the Spirit is received by faith - you can get it but by your own admission you don't have the faith at the moment to get it.  It could be given to you but your pride in your own ideas would be a barrier to that. 

If God ignites it in you the struggle will begin, because you will discern your true spiritual state and your need for help fighting through it and your enemies arrayed against you - including your old self.  And then you would be beyond the laughter of men in your following Christ.  As it is you are unawake to the building being on aflame with respect to your spiritual condition.  To you I'm just a casual annoyance, but someday you'll know you had a real friend trying to share the way of escape with you.  Hopefully sooner than later, more rather than less. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


NoDeity
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Fonzie wrote:NoDeity

Fonzie wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

Perhaps you should have made it more clear that what you were saying is that it's not good to go against your conscience.  That's something I can agree with with.  Because I value truth and reason and because I respect scientific methods of investigation, for me to accept something purely on faith, as you clearly do, would be to violate my conscience in such a way that I could no longer respect myself.  If I were to espouse your beliefs, I would have to consider myself untrustworthy and morally corrupt.

 

NoDeity,

The supports for real faith are very real.  They are just spiritual rather than material or "feeling based". 

Your avatar is a man playing a guitar - don't know if that's you or not - but music is musically supported and musically discerned.  You can discern a supporting cord or a discord.

Yes, that's me in the photo.  While musical tastes are subjective, the actual music is not.  The characteristics of music can be measured very precisely.  In structure, music is mathematical.  To compare music to faith in this context is plainly ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


Fonzie
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WHO'S APATHETIC? - ( _ _ _ )

jcgadfly wrote:

Ah, Paulism.

You don't like the laws of God and man so you add a law that says you don't have to follow them.

Following laws is not legalism - letting them rule you is. Not following the laws because you have a magic grace shield isn't really a solution.

What would I call the guy you describe? The same thing Paul calls him "under grace not under law" and he has "no transgression". The only difference is that the guy you describe actually wants to follow God's laws and the laws of a fruitful society. The guy you lionize and are striving to be like doesn't care about things like that because all he has to do is believe really, really hard and the God whose laws he ignores will still save him.

You bring up Cain, who didn't know what the sacrifice rules were because God didn't bother telling them to him. God sure does like causing anger, huh?

You decry Esau and glorify Jacob, the con artist who took advantage of a vulnerability. Yep, God loves fraud, too.

How can an atheist be a spokesperson for either the grieving Jesus or the grinning Devil when they believe in neither?

The better question for you to answer is "Why do you claim to believe in a God whose laws you feel that you are allowed to break with impunity?"

 

JcGadfly,

You have a automatic response mechanism - if you can create or find a label such as "Paulism" you think that settles it and excuses you from real thinking.  I've seen a lot of this here.  You have certain names for arguments that excuse you from all thought in your minds. 

The law of God is still there and the curse of it.  If you want to taste either you can.  The thing is though that Jesus fulfilled the law becoming Himself a curse for us.  Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree - except the law had nothing on Him.  He didn't have to suffer the curse of the law in any respect.  He did to redeem those who accept the gift of salvation through the grace of God in Christ. 

You are still under the curse of the law.  You have broken the law just like everyone except Jesus.  If you come to yourself you will have to battle with Christ leading you to fight your way out using the sword of the Spirit and the shield of faith, and various other weapons.  But right now you are your own worst enemy.  The Devil is second, but he's got you convinced he's your sweetie.  Faith is a weapon of battle not a walk in the park as you falsely define. 

Cain had his instructions which were a sacrifice that pointed to the ultimate sacrifice of Christ, the Lamb of God.  God dealt gently with him after his error and spoke encouragingly to him.  He didn't fight the enemy - he surrendered.  Is that your model? 

Jacob had his faults yes and we all do, but he trusted in God.  Jacob was disciplined with a specially designed discipline - he fooled Isaac, but Laban fooled Jacob with Leah.  Esau sold out his birthright for a bowl of soup - he would illustrate what you are selling out to hang on to your own ideas rather than accepting God's. 

You are a spokesman for the truth of God because God is not mocked.  The results of your choices will be seen to the glory of God - whether illustrating the right or the wrong way.  Since you have rejected the grace of God in Christ you have already judged yourself guilty but still pending.  If you cried out to God in humility for mercy I'm confident He would respond.  There won't be any in Hell who did that weren't heard.

Your last question about my claim to not have regard for God's laws is off base.  "This is my beloved Son - hear Him!"  I have great regard for God's Law, and Jesus lit up the prophecies and the understanding of the mystery of God hidden for ages - angels didn't even get a preview. 

I didn't receive the Spirit through the law however.  The law was a paddle line to show me I can't do it myself.  I received the Spirit by hearing through faith - and now I am highly motivated to follow God's law.  Faith involves everything - heart, mind, soul, strength, spirit.  You don't motivate morals by preaching morals.  You could only make everybody immoral by doing that.  Faith and fellowship with Christ motivates a man to fight impurity and going against conscience, pride, wrong focus, not forgiving, sloth, etc, etc.  It's called the power of the Spirit - the same power that raised Jesus from the dead working in us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

,

 


Fonzie
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THE SINGING ROBOT - NOT

NoDeity wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

Perhaps you should have made it more clear that what you were saying is that it's not good to go against your conscience.  That's something I can agree with with.  Because I value truth and reason and because I respect scientific methods of investigation, for me to accept something purely on faith, as you clearly do, would be to violate my conscience in such a way that I could no longer respect myself.  If I were to espouse your beliefs, I would have to consider myself untrustworthy and morally corrupt.

 

NoDeity,

The supports for real faith are very real.  They are just spiritual rather than material or "feeling based". 

Your avatar is a man playing a guitar - don't know if that's you or not - but music is musically supported and musically discerned.  You can discern a supporting cord or a discord.

Yes, that's me in the photo.  While musical tastes are subjective, the actual music is not.  The characteristics of music can be measured very precisely.  In structure, music is mathematical.  To compare music to faith in this context is plainly ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NoDeity,

I know about the mathematical harmony marvel you speak of - I studied that for a while.  To me it inspires faith in itself. 

But you don't discern harmony with mathematics and you don't make a song come alive with mathematics.  Good singers connect their gift of musical discernment with spirit. 

In my opinion it is a bulls-eye comparison. 

 

 

 

 


NoDeity
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Fonzie wrote:NoDeity

Fonzie wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

Perhaps you should have made it more clear that what you were saying is that it's not good to go against your conscience.  That's something I can agree with with.  Because I value truth and reason and because I respect scientific methods of investigation, for me to accept something purely on faith, as you clearly do, would be to violate my conscience in such a way that I could no longer respect myself.  If I were to espouse your beliefs, I would have to consider myself untrustworthy and morally corrupt.

 

NoDeity,

The supports for real faith are very real.  They are just spiritual rather than material or "feeling based". 

Your avatar is a man playing a guitar - don't know if that's you or not - but music is musically supported and musically discerned.  You can discern a supporting cord or a discord.

Yes, that's me in the photo.  While musical tastes are subjective, the actual music is not.  The characteristics of music can be measured very precisely.  In structure, music is mathematical.  To compare music to faith in this context is plainly ridiculous.

 

NoDeity,

I know about the mathematical harmony marvel you speak of - I studied that for a while.  To me it inspires faith in itself. 

But you don't discern harmony with mathematics and you don't make a song come alive with mathematics.  Good singers connect their gift of musical discernment with spirit.

There is no reason to leap to the conclusion that it's got anything to do with "spirit".  Emotional expression and an ear trained by experience covers it adequately.  Adding "spirit" into one's view of it doesn't explain anything and is unnecessary.

 

Fonzie wrote:
In my opinion it is a bulls-eye comparison. 

Yeah, but you choose to see "spirit" everywhere.

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


Atheistextremist
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When I read some

Fonzie wrote:

The law of God is still there and the curse of it.  If you want to taste either you can.  The thing is though that Jesus fulfilled the law becoming Himself a curse for us.  Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree - except the law had nothing on Him.  He didn't have to suffer the curse of the law in any respect.  He did to redeem those who accept the gift of salvation through the grace of God in Christ. 

You are still under the curse of the law.  You have broken the law just like everyone except Jesus.  If you come to yourself you will have to battle with Christ leading you to fight your way out using the sword of the Spirit and the shield of faith, and various other weapons.  But right now you are your own worst enemy.  The Devil is second, but he's got you convinced he's your sweetie.  Faith is a weapon of battle not a walk in the park as you falsely define. 

Cain had his instructions which were a sacrifice that pointed to the ultimate sacrifice of Christ, the Lamb of God.  God dealt gently with him after his error and spoke encouragingly to him.  He didn't fight the enemy - he surrendered.  Is that your model? 

Jacob had his faults yes and we all do, but he trusted in God.  Jacob was disciplined with a specially designed discipline - he fooled Isaac, but Laban fooled Jacob with Leah.  Esau sold out his birthright for a bowl of soup - he would illustrate what you are selling out to hang on to your own ideas rather than accepting God's. 

You are a spokesman for the truth of God because God is not mocked.  The results of your choices will be seen to the glory of God - whether illustrating the right or the wrong way.  Since you have rejected the grace of God in Christ you have already judged yourself guilty but still pending.  If you cried out to God in humility for mercy I'm confident He would respond.  There won't be any in Hell who did that weren't heard.

 

Of the pitiful crap that comes out of your mouth, Fonzie, I'm surprised people are still remotely polite to you. More thinly veiled threats, more sweeping vistas of dogma utterly unsupported by the facts. More adhoms which equate use of the brain to being in the sway of an invisible and unprovable devil who spends his day pulling the wool over our eyes. Faith is not a weapon of battle, Fonzie. It's giving in to the selfish urge to live forever. Christianity is all about you, Fonzie. Your eternal life, your relationship with jesus, your hotel room in heaven. It matters not a whit to you how many people must die in the future of your minds eye as long as you can indulge your selfish need for meaning. 

Your entire personality is a just a conduit for the cult.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Ah, Paulism.

You don't like the laws of God and man so you add a law that says you don't have to follow them.

Following laws is not legalism - letting them rule you is. Not following the laws because you have a magic grace shield isn't really a solution.

What would I call the guy you describe? The same thing Paul calls him "under grace not under law" and he has "no transgression". The only difference is that the guy you describe actually wants to follow God's laws and the laws of a fruitful society. The guy you lionize and are striving to be like doesn't care about things like that because all he has to do is believe really, really hard and the God whose laws he ignores will still save him.

You bring up Cain, who didn't know what the sacrifice rules were because God didn't bother telling them to him. God sure does like causing anger, huh?

You decry Esau and glorify Jacob, the con artist who took advantage of a vulnerability. Yep, God loves fraud, too.

How can an atheist be a spokesperson for either the grieving Jesus or the grinning Devil when they believe in neither?

The better question for you to answer is "Why do you claim to believe in a God whose laws you feel that you are allowed to break with impunity?"

 

JcGadfly,

You have a automatic response mechanism - if you can create or find a label such as "Paulism" you think that settles it and excuses you from real thinking.  I've seen a lot of this here.  You have certain names for arguments that excuse you from all thought in your minds. 

The law of God is still there and the curse of it.  If you want to taste either you can.  The thing is though that Jesus fulfilled the law becoming Himself a curse for us.  Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree - except the law had nothing on Him.  He didn't have to suffer the curse of the law in any respect.  He did to redeem those who accept the gift of salvation through the grace of God in Christ. 

You are still under the curse of the law.  You have broken the law just like everyone except Jesus.  If you come to yourself you will have to battle with Christ leading you to fight your way out using the sword of the Spirit and the shield of faith, and various other weapons.  But right now you are your own worst enemy.  The Devil is second, but he's got you convinced he's your sweetie.  Faith is a weapon of battle not a walk in the park as you falsely define. 

Cain had his instructions which were a sacrifice that pointed to the ultimate sacrifice of Christ, the Lamb of God.  God dealt gently with him after his error and spoke encouragingly to him.  He didn't fight the enemy - he surrendered.  Is that your model? 

Jacob had his faults yes and we all do, but he trusted in God.  Jacob was disciplined with a specially designed discipline - he fooled Isaac, but Laban fooled Jacob with Leah.  Esau sold out his birthright for a bowl of soup - he would illustrate what you are selling out to hang on to your own ideas rather than accepting God's. 

You are a spokesman for the truth of God because God is not mocked.  The results of your choices will be seen to the glory of God - whether illustrating the right or the wrong way.  Since you have rejected the grace of God in Christ you have already judged yourself guilty but still pending.  If you cried out to God in humility for mercy I'm confident He would respond.  There won't be any in Hell who did that weren't heard.

Your last question about my claim to not have regard for God's laws is off base.  "This is my beloved Son - hear Him!"  I have great regard for God's Law, and Jesus lit up the prophecies and the understanding of the mystery of God hidden for ages - angels didn't even get a preview. 

I didn't receive the Spirit through the law however.  The law was a paddle line to show me I can't do it myself.  I received the Spirit by hearing through faith - and now I am highly motivated to follow God's law.  Faith involves everything - heart, mind, soul, strength, spirit.  You don't motivate morals by preaching morals.  You could only make everybody immoral by doing that.  Faith and fellowship with Christ motivates a man to fight impurity and going against conscience, pride, wrong focus, not forgiving, sloth, etc, etc.  It's called the power of the Spirit - the same power that raised Jesus from the dead working in us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

,

 

You mean that law of God that Paul said didn't apply to you? Why are you concerned with what doesn't matter to you?

Do you really think Jesus sacrificed himself so you can break God's law? If you take Paul's writings seriously you have to. Never mind that three days off and being God again is hardly a sacrifice.

There were no instructions on sacrifices until Moses - why are you adding to your God's word? Or are you acknowledging its inadequacies by trying to "fix" things?

Cain and Jacob are not my examples. Since you don't follow God's laws, they can easily be yours. All you have to do is ask for forgiveness and you're free to do anything you want. I hardly think being made a prosperous nation by profiting from fraud is punishment.

Faith is a weapon of battle? Only if you make up your own enemies - nothing like being the oppressed majority.

As for Satan, you forget I don't believe in him either. You need him more than I do.

And make no mistake on this - I never said God didn't hear me. I'm sure he did - I'm even sure he answered me. I'm also sure he refused me. I know enough to take "no" for an answer. If that's his love, I'm pulling for his hatred.

If none of the stuff in your last paragraph works, why are you doing it?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Fonzie
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IT WORKS FOR ME

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Ah, Paulism.

You don't like the laws of God and man so you add a law that says you don't have to follow them.

Following laws is not legalism - letting them rule you is. Not following the laws because you have a magic grace shield isn't really a solution.

What would I call the guy you describe? The same thing Paul calls him "under grace not under law" and he has "no transgression". The only difference is that the guy you describe actually wants to follow God's laws and the laws of a fruitful society. The guy you lionize and are striving to be like doesn't care about things like that because all he has to do is believe really, really hard and the God whose laws he ignores will still save him.

You bring up Cain, who didn't know what the sacrifice rules were because God didn't bother telling them to him. God sure does like causing anger, huh?

You decry Esau and glorify Jacob, the con artist who took advantage of a vulnerability. Yep, God loves fraud, too.

How can an atheist be a spokesperson for either the grieving Jesus or the grinning Devil when they believe in neither?

The better question for you to answer is "Why do you claim to believe in a God whose laws you feel that you are allowed to break with impunity?"

 

JcGadfly,

You have a automatic response mechanism - if you can create or find a label such as "Paulism" you think that settles it and excuses you from real thinking.  I've seen a lot of this here.  You have certain names for arguments that excuse you from all thought in your minds. 

The law of God is still there and the curse of it.  If you want to taste either you can.  The thing is though that Jesus fulfilled the law becoming Himself a curse for us.  Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree - except the law had nothing on Him.  He didn't have to suffer the curse of the law in any respect.  He did to redeem those who accept the gift of salvation through the grace of God in Christ. 

You are still under the curse of the law.  You have broken the law just like everyone except Jesus.  If you come to yourself you will have to battle with Christ leading you to fight your way out using the sword of the Spirit and the shield of faith, and various other weapons.  But right now you are your own worst enemy.  The Devil is second, but he's got you convinced he's your sweetie.  Faith is a weapon of battle not a walk in the park as you falsely define. 

Cain had his instructions which were a sacrifice that pointed to the ultimate sacrifice of Christ, the Lamb of God.  God dealt gently with him after his error and spoke encouragingly to him.  He didn't fight the enemy - he surrendered.  Is that your model? 

Jacob had his faults yes and we all do, but he trusted in God.  Jacob was disciplined with a specially designed discipline - he fooled Isaac, but Laban fooled Jacob with Leah.  Esau sold out his birthright for a bowl of soup - he would illustrate what you are selling out to hang on to your own ideas rather than accepting God's. 

You are a spokesman for the truth of God because God is not mocked.  The results of your choices will be seen to the glory of God - whether illustrating the right or the wrong way.  Since you have rejected the grace of God in Christ you have already judged yourself guilty but still pending.  If you cried out to God in humility for mercy I'm confident He would respond.  There won't be any in Hell who did that weren't heard.

Your last question about my claim to not have regard for God's laws is off base.  "This is my beloved Son - hear Him!"  I have great regard for God's Law, and Jesus lit up the prophecies and the understanding of the mystery of God hidden for ages - angels didn't even get a preview. 

I didn't receive the Spirit through the law however.  The law was a paddle line to show me I can't do it myself.  I received the Spirit by hearing through faith - and now I am highly motivated to follow God's law.  Faith involves everything - heart, mind, soul, strength, spirit.  You don't motivate morals by preaching morals.  You could only make everybody immoral by doing that.  Faith and fellowship with Christ motivates a man to fight impurity and going against conscience, pride, wrong focus, not forgiving, sloth, etc, etc.  It's called the power of the Spirit - the same power that raised Jesus from the dead working in us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

,

 

You mean that law of God that Paul said didn't apply to you? Why are you concerned with what doesn't matter to you?

Do you really think Jesus sacrificed himself so you can break God's law? If you take Paul's writings seriously you have to. Never mind that three days off and being God again is hardly a sacrifice.

There were no instructions on sacrifices until Moses - why are you adding to your God's word? Or are you acknowledging its inadequacies by trying to "fix" things?

Cain and Jacob are not my examples. Since you don't follow God's laws, they can easily be yours. All you have to do is ask for forgiveness and you're free to do anything you want. I hardly think being made a prosperous nation by profiting from fraud is punishment.

Faith is a weapon of battle? Only if you make up your own enemies - nothing like being the oppressed majority.

As for Satan, you forget I don't believe in him either. You need him more than I do.

And make no mistake on this - I never said God didn't hear me. I'm sure he did - I'm even sure he answered me. I'm also sure he refused me. I know enough to take "no" for an answer. If that's his love, I'm pulling for his hatred.

If none of the stuff in your last paragraph works, why are you doing it?

 


JcGadfly,

It all works for me which is the point of this thread.  I can't restrain the wind, I can't "herd" you in the sheepfold.  I can't make you understand the great weapon faith and the Sword of the Spirit are - especially when you have surrendered and are a spiritual POW.  If you were fighting you would understand the value of faith moment by moment and parlay by parlay.  But know that you could escape POW with the help of the Christ you deny.

I am being honest with you JcGadfly that what you are scoffing at is joy and peace and security beyond belief.  You are the loser here not me.

I know God is just and that bridges things not revealed like Cain's sacrifice instructions.  I know God is just and right and true and I apply that to things not revealed - just like Job did to his trials.  You don't trust God or trust in God so you use things not revealed as a means of accusing God of wrong.  Considering the way you view God you treat me like a prince. 

The law was added to give men a clear view of their sin and an eternal appreciation of their deliverance from it in God's Gift of Righteousness through Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself for us. 

You do make Satan smile I'm sure of it for saying he doesn't exist.  That's the way he wants to keep it with you as you head for the drop off point.  It's no deposit no return for the JcGadfly bottle.  When Satan's work is done with you he won't look so good or non-existent. 

As far as keeping God's law goes, I have been born into Christ.  I am in Him - He is the Head.  When He died, I died.  When He kept the law perfectly, that Righteousness has also been given to me.  When He rose from the dead I rose from the dead in Him.  The life I now live I live not in the flesh but in Him, in the righteousness that comes through faith. 

I walk by faith and to bring in trust in some work that I have done or do or some law or ceremony other than Christ is a rock in my shoe walking by faith, water on the flame of faith.  But you don't understand the value of the weapon of faith or the sword of the Spirit so that all doesn't concern you - neither can you talk about it and make sense.  You have contempt for things you don't value or understand. 

 

 

,

 


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jcgadfly wrote:Why would an

jcgadfly wrote:

Why would an eye-witness wait 40 years to write about such important people and events? Especially when contemporary historians didn't mention them at all?

Did Paul create a religion? As his works existed decades before the gospels, it leads that way. Would they follow the religion of a former persecutor? Probably not - that's why I consider that story an embellishment to show the power of the new religion. Kind of like the testimonies that start out with how rotten of a sinner the testifier used to be before god miraculously changed them. Add in that Mark was likely written by John Mark (Paul's fellow traveler) anonymously and more strength comes to that argument.

You asked a good question there - did the apostles believe Jesus was Messiah? Or did they write up a character which borrowed liberally from the resurrection stories of other gods to make a teacher they liked more special? They could have done both. So yes you can have it both ways. Their martyrdoms were not for the beliefs as much as they ticked off those in power. Rome didn't care about their beliefs until they needed to protect against their own incompetence. They were scapegoated, yes, but not for the belief in their particular brand of magic. 

I think you're applying some very modern concepts to times 2000 years ago. Why do you think writing is such a great medium for spreading news about someone 2000 years ago? There was no internet, no newspapers... remember, this was from a time before movable type. As to 'contemporary historians'... how exactly would a 'contemporary historian' KNOW about Christ unless he was there... or heard about him as news slowly spread. Might I also ask you to name 3 contemprary historians from the time of Christ?

You're making a lot of very broad assumptions there Eye-wink

 

I'm not going to pick at your desired version of the early church. If you choose to believe that, then that's your choice.

 


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jcgadfly wrote:Why make a

jcgadfly wrote:

Why make a religion?

1. It provides an explanation for natural phenomena based on limited scientific knowledge.

2. It's a way to grapple with large concepts where one doesn't see another answer.

3. It's an excuse for some people to do atrociously evil things.

4. It's an incentive for some people to do good things.

5. It provides comfort and the occasional warm fuzzy feeling to feel like an all-powerful thing gives a rip about you.

Need more?

Nice... but remember that the Jews (Paul, the early Apostles, the early followers of the church) had a religion though. If this is how you choose to define religion, they already had all this. There was no need to martyr themselves to create a new one... one that put them at odds with their previous religion. One that separated them from the central core of their identity.

 

There are other options.

Perhaps people 'make' a religion because they believe that they have met God. That he is good. That he is worthy of our worship. Perhaps.

 

This is not a question of 'smart' or 'educated' vs 'weak minded' and 'simple'. There are intelligent people on both sides of the debate, just as there are ummm less smart people Eye-wink


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NoDeity wrote:Dragoon wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

Dragoon wrote:
If you belonged to Christ, then I have perfect faith as well that you will return to him. The Spirit is merely God's seal upon us, guaranteeing what is to come (2Co1:22, Eph 4:30).

I have confidence that, unless I become afflicted with some disorder that severely compromises my ability to reason, I will not "return to him".

I'm sure you said that about 'falling from faith' as well Eye-wink

Wife dragging me away... !!!!! HELP!!!!!!!!


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 belief in mohammed and

 belief in mohammed and allah worked for the 19 hijackers on 9/11. it's no different.


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Dragoon wrote:jcgadfly

Dragoon wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Why would an eye-witness wait 40 years to write about such important people and events? Especially when contemporary historians didn't mention them at all?

Did Paul create a religion? As his works existed decades before the gospels, it leads that way. Would they follow the religion of a former persecutor? Probably not - that's why I consider that story an embellishment to show the power of the new religion. Kind of like the testimonies that start out with how rotten of a sinner the testifier used to be before god miraculously changed them. Add in that Mark was likely written by John Mark (Paul's fellow traveler) anonymously and more strength comes to that argument.

You asked a good question there - did the apostles believe Jesus was Messiah? Or did they write up a character which borrowed liberally from the resurrection stories of other gods to make a teacher they liked more special? They could have done both. So yes you can have it both ways. Their martyrdoms were not for the beliefs as much as they ticked off those in power. Rome didn't care about their beliefs until they needed to protect against their own incompetence. They were scapegoated, yes, but not for the belief in their particular brand of magic. 

I think you're applying some very modern concepts to times 2000 years ago. Why do you think writing is such a great medium for spreading news about someone 2000 years ago? There was no internet, no newspapers... remember, this was from a time before movable type. As to 'contemporary historians'... how exactly would a 'contemporary historian' KNOW about Christ unless he was there... or heard about him as news slowly spread. Might I also ask you to name 3 contemprary historians from the time of Christ?

You're making a lot of very broad assumptions there Eye-wink

 

I'm not going to pick at your desired version of the early church. If you choose to believe that, then that's your choice.

 

Dissemination has nothing to do with writing - If an eyewitness is seeing a history-making event - why not chronicle it? Unless, of course, there were no eyewitnesses...

I also see that you are confusing my meaning of "contemporary". I meant "contemporary" in this instance as "historians who were active and writing during the supposed life of Christ". My apologies for the mix-up.

As for names - here's a site with a list: http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/jesus5.htm - The list is at the top. Have fun.

I'm not going to pick at your ignoring a more plausible explanation than a son of God working miracles that no one reported on as they happened either. If you prefer magic, that's your choice as well.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Dragoon wrote:jcgadfly

Dragoon wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Why make a religion?

1. It provides an explanation for natural phenomena based on limited scientific knowledge.

2. It's a way to grapple with large concepts where one doesn't see another answer.

3. It's an excuse for some people to do atrociously evil things.

4. It's an incentive for some people to do good things.

5. It provides comfort and the occasional warm fuzzy feeling to feel like an all-powerful thing gives a rip about you.

Need more?

Nice... but remember that the Jews (Paul, the early Apostles, the early followers of the church) had a religion though. If this is how you choose to define religion, they already had all this. There was no need to martyr themselves to create a new one... one that put them at odds with their previous religion. One that separated them from the central core of their identity.

 

There are other options.

Perhaps people 'make' a religion because they believe that they have met God. That he is good. That he is worthy of our worship. Perhaps.

 

This is not a question of 'smart' or 'educated' vs 'weak minded' and 'simple'. There are intelligent people on both sides of the debate, just as there are ummm less smart people Eye-wink

So would you believe that if you met Dwayne Johnson after the making of "The Tooth Fairy" that you had actually met the Tooth Fairy?

Perhaps Judaism didn't provide enough of those things I listed (particularly the "warm fuzzies" as Judaism doesn't posit a God that loves his creatures. The martyrdoms were not motivated by their belief as much as their antagonism of those in power. Claiming martyrdom simply makes death noble, which is what I expect of a blood cult.

Believing they met God is a possibility - a significantly less plausible one than those I mentioned (especially in light of their coming from a religion where meeting God meant certain death), but possible.

Oh, and nice cheap shot there. I could accuse you of being the lesser light in this discussion but I want to keep the discussion going. Why do you want to silence it with insults?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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NO WORRIES from me

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Of the pitiful crap that comes out of your mouth, Fonzie, I'm surprised people are still remotely polite to you. More thinly veiled threats, more sweeping vistas of dogma utterly unsupported by the facts. More adhoms which equate use of the brain to being in the sway of an invisible and unprovable devil who spends his day pulling the wool over our eyes. Faith is not a weapon of battle, Fonzie. It's giving in to the selfish urge to live forever. Christianity is all about you, Fonzie. Your eternal life, your relationship with jesus, your hotel room in heaven. It matters not a whit to you how many people must die in the future of your minds eye as long as you can indulge your selfish need for meaning. 

Your entire personality is a just a conduit for the cult.

 

 

You have no worries with me Atheistextremist.  I am nothing in the scheme of things as far as people dying in the future.  If I am right that Jesus is LORD - which I am - you will have influence in those you speak of dying however.  I am aware that there are people who hate the gospel and hate Christ.  I am also aware of the "blasphemy challenge" promoted by the leaders of this website.  They don't concern me at all because they are self - judging and self - condemning.  It doesn't need help from me. 

Your blindness to the truth of the gospel of Christ prove the existence and diligence of the Devil.  He even has you making your position out to be in your eyes a righteous one.  He has a double lock and several guards on you leading a mocking chorus.  Many have been in your position however and escaped by crying out to the LORD.  If you do he will respond.  I hope you do.  i know He would.

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie

Fonzie wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Of the pitiful crap that comes out of your mouth, Fonzie, I'm surprised people are still remotely polite to you. More thinly veiled threats, more sweeping vistas of dogma utterly unsupported by the facts. More adhoms which equate use of the brain to being in the sway of an invisible and unprovable devil who spends his day pulling the wool over our eyes. Faith is not a weapon of battle, Fonzie. It's giving in to the selfish urge to live forever. Christianity is all about you, Fonzie. Your eternal life, your relationship with jesus, your hotel room in heaven. It matters not a whit to you how many people must die in the future of your minds eye as long as you can indulge your selfish need for meaning. 

Your entire personality is a just a conduit for the cult.

 

 

You have no worries with me Atheistextremist.  I am nothing in the scheme of things as far as people dying in the future.  If I am right that Jesus is LORD - which I am - you will have influence in those you speak of dying however.  I am aware that there are people who hate the gospel and hate Christ.  I am also aware of the "blasphemy challenge" promoted by the leaders of this website.  They don't concern me at all because they are self - judging and self - condemning.  It doesn't need help from me. 

Your blindness to the truth of the gospel of Christ prove the existence and diligence of the Devil.  He even has you making your position out to be in your eyes a righteous one.  He has a double lock and several guards on you leading a mocking chorus.  Many have been in your position however and escaped by crying out to the LORD.  If you do he will respond.  I hope you do.  i know He would.

 

 

 

 

Fonzie,

If you have ever wondered why some think of you as an arrogant slimeball, reread this.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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THANKS

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Of the pitiful crap that comes out of your mouth, Fonzie, I'm surprised people are still remotely polite to you. More thinly veiled threats, more sweeping vistas of dogma utterly unsupported by the facts. More adhoms which equate use of the brain to being in the sway of an invisible and unprovable devil who spends his day pulling the wool over our eyes. Faith is not a weapon of battle, Fonzie. It's giving in to the selfish urge to live forever. Christianity is all about you, Fonzie. Your eternal life, your relationship with jesus, your hotel room in heaven. It matters not a whit to you how many people must die in the future of your minds eye as long as you can indulge your selfish need for meaning. 

Your entire personality is a just a conduit for the cult.

 

 

You have no worries with me Atheistextremist.  I am nothing in the scheme of things as far as people dying in the future.  If I am right that Jesus is LORD - which I am - you will have influence in those you speak of dying however.  I am aware that there are people who hate the gospel and hate Christ.  I am also aware of the "blasphemy challenge" promoted by the leaders of this website.  They don't concern me at all because they are self - judging and self - condemning.  It doesn't need help from me. 

Your blindness to the truth of the gospel of Christ prove the existence and diligence of the Devil.  He even has you making your position out to be in your eyes a righteous one.  He has a double lock and several guards on you leading a mocking chorus.  Many have been in your position however and escaped by crying out to the LORD.  If you do he will respond.  I hope you do.  i know He would.

 

 

 

 

Fonzie,

If you have ever wondered why some think of you as an arrogant slimeball, reread this.

 

From a guy that doesn't respect the God Who made Him or the Savior Who suffered and died for him I gladly take my place at the bottom of your list.


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Of the pitiful crap that comes out of your mouth, Fonzie, I'm surprised people are still remotely polite to you. More thinly veiled threats, more sweeping vistas of dogma utterly unsupported by the facts. More adhoms which equate use of the brain to being in the sway of an invisible and unprovable devil who spends his day pulling the wool over our eyes. Faith is not a weapon of battle, Fonzie. It's giving in to the selfish urge to live forever. Christianity is all about you, Fonzie. Your eternal life, your relationship with jesus, your hotel room in heaven. It matters not a whit to you how many people must die in the future of your minds eye as long as you can indulge your selfish need for meaning. 

Your entire personality is a just a conduit for the cult.

 

 

You have no worries with me Atheistextremist.  I am nothing in the scheme of things as far as people dying in the future.  If I am right that Jesus is LORD - which I am - you will have influence in those you speak of dying however.  I am aware that there are people who hate the gospel and hate Christ.  I am also aware of the "blasphemy challenge" promoted by the leaders of this website.  They don't concern me at all because they are self - judging and self - condemning.  It doesn't need help from me. 

Your blindness to the truth of the gospel of Christ prove the existence and diligence of the Devil.  He even has you making your position out to be in your eyes a righteous one.  He has a double lock and several guards on you leading a mocking chorus.  Many have been in your position however and escaped by crying out to the LORD.  If you do he will respond.  I hope you do.  i know He would.

 

 

 

 

Fonzie,

If you have ever wondered why some think of you as an arrogant slimeball, reread this.

 

From a guy that doesn't respect the God Who made Him or the Savior Who suffered and died for him I gladly take my place at the bottom of your list.

Does that mean you've finally become honest and don't really give a damn about Jesus saving anyone here?

Or is it just me? I'll take it either way.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote: The law was

Fonzie wrote:

The law was added to give men a clear view of their sin and an eternal appreciation of their deliverance from it in God's Gift of Righteousness through Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself for us. 


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Of the pitiful crap that comes out of your mouth, Fonzie, I'm surprised people are still remotely polite to you. More thinly veiled threats, more sweeping vistas of dogma utterly unsupported by the facts. More adhoms which equate use of the brain to being in the sway of an invisible and unprovable devil who spends his day pulling the wool over our eyes. Faith is not a weapon of battle, Fonzie. It's giving in to the selfish urge to live forever. Christianity is all about you, Fonzie. Your eternal life, your relationship with jesus, your hotel room in heaven. It matters not a whit to you how many people must die in the future of your minds eye as long as you can indulge your selfish need for meaning. 

Your entire personality is a just a conduit for the cult.

 

 

You have no worries with me Atheistextremist.  I am nothing in the scheme of things as far as people dying in the future.  If I am right that Jesus is LORD - which I am - you will have influence in those you speak of dying however.  I am aware that there are people who hate the gospel and hate Christ.  I am also aware of the "blasphemy challenge" promoted by the leaders of this website.  They don't concern me at all because they are self - judging and self - condemning.  It doesn't need help from me. 

Your blindness to the truth of the gospel of Christ prove the existence and diligence of the Devil.  He even has you making your position out to be in your eyes a righteous one.  He has a double lock and several guards on you leading a mocking chorus.  Many have been in your position however and escaped by crying out to the LORD.  If you do he will respond.  I hope you do.  i know He would.

 

 

 

 

Fonzie,

If you have ever wondered why some think of you as an arrogant slimeball, reread this.

 

From a guy that doesn't respect the God Who made Him or the Savior Who suffered and died for him I gladly take my place at the bottom of your list.

Does that mean you've finally become honest and don't really give a damn about Jesus saving anyone here?

Or is it just me? I'll take it either way.

 

 


JcGadfly,

Not at al.  It is my desire that everybody on this site (for one) believes in Jesus and is saved.  What I meant is that opinions and insults of me are immaterial.  It's an illustration of no faith built.  I have told you this but you have no faith that I want that - no faith has been built up such that you could think deeper and know what I meant.  No matter what I say your complete lack of faith in what I say affects it.  You would give a fellow atheist the benefit of suspending judgment and try to understand.

While I don't like you thinking of me as a slime ball I don't see it as a personal insult - I see it as an expression of your disdain for the message of the gospel and Jesus and lack of faith in somebody trying to persuade you.  As I see it you have made similar references to Jesus so I'm not insulted by that.  What more could I expect.  You are aware I am promised such as that aren't you?  

 

 

 

 

l. 


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Thanks for reminding me of

Thanks for reminding me of that one, RatDog.  It's very good.

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Of the pitiful crap that comes out of your mouth, Fonzie, I'm surprised people are still remotely polite to you. More thinly veiled threats, more sweeping vistas of dogma utterly unsupported by the facts. More adhoms which equate use of the brain to being in the sway of an invisible and unprovable devil who spends his day pulling the wool over our eyes. Faith is not a weapon of battle, Fonzie. It's giving in to the selfish urge to live forever. Christianity is all about you, Fonzie. Your eternal life, your relationship with jesus, your hotel room in heaven. It matters not a whit to you how many people must die in the future of your minds eye as long as you can indulge your selfish need for meaning. 

Your entire personality is a just a conduit for the cult.

 

 

You have no worries with me Atheistextremist.  I am nothing in the scheme of things as far as people dying in the future.  If I am right that Jesus is LORD - which I am - you will have influence in those you speak of dying however.  I am aware that there are people who hate the gospel and hate Christ.  I am also aware of the "blasphemy challenge" promoted by the leaders of this website.  They don't concern me at all because they are self - judging and self - condemning.  It doesn't need help from me. 

Your blindness to the truth of the gospel of Christ prove the existence and diligence of the Devil.  He even has you making your position out to be in your eyes a righteous one.  He has a double lock and several guards on you leading a mocking chorus.  Many have been in your position however and escaped by crying out to the LORD.  If you do he will respond.  I hope you do.  i know He would.

 

 

 

 

Fonzie,

If you have ever wondered why some think of you as an arrogant slimeball, reread this.

 

From a guy that doesn't respect the God Who made Him or the Savior Who suffered and died for him I gladly take my place at the bottom of your list.

Does that mean you've finally become honest and don't really give a damn about Jesus saving anyone here?

Or is it just me? I'll take it either way.

 

 


JcGadfly,

Not at al.  It is my desire that everybody on this site (for one) believes in Jesus and is saved.  What I meant is that opinions and insults of me are immaterial.  It's an illustration of no faith built.  I have told you this but you have no faith that I want that - no faith has been built up such that you could think deeper and know what I meant.  No matter what I say your complete lack of faith in what I say affects it.  You would give a fellow atheist the benefit of suspending judgment and try to understand.

While I don't like you thinking of me as a slime ball I don't see it as a personal insult - I see it as an expression of your disdain for the message of the gospel and Jesus and lack of faith in somebody trying to persuade you.  As I see it you have made similar references to Jesus so I'm not insulted by that.  What more could I expect.  You are aware I am promised such as that aren't you?  

 

 

 

 

l. 

"As you see it" are amazingly flexible words, aren't they, Fonzie?

"Jesus is Lord"...as you see it.
"The Bible is correct"...as you see it.
If you are called out on your arrogant posts, you are sharing in Jesus' suffering...as you see it.
If others present counter arguments to your position or show you where you've misinterpreted your holy book,
that doesn't matter because you're right...as you see it.
If people don't believe in Jesus exactly the way you do, they're going to hell...as you see it.

Doesn't that scripture you mentioned talk about those being reviled and persecuted in Jesus' name?
You are being refuted and called arrogant in your own name, not his.

If an atheist came off as an arrogant jerk to me or posted stuff without backing it up - I'd bust him/her on it also.
You're getting more of my attention at present because you're posting at me - that's all.

Oh, and accusing me of not thinking deeply for no other reason than I'm not saying "Yes, Fonzie. You're so right.
I'll confess my sins and start believing in Jesus right away." is arrogant and insulting

If I wasn't thinking, I wouldn't have the questions you keep dodging.

I'm glad you weren't offended. Granted, it takes nothing to be non-offended at a non-insult (I said some may take you as an arrogant slimeball,
not that I did) but it's still nice of you.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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20 QUESTIONS FROM GOD

RatDog wrote:

 

1)  Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?  Tell me, if you have understanding. 

2)  Who determined its measurements - surely you know !

3)  Who stretched the line upon it? 

4)  On what were its bases sunk, or Who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

5)  Who shut in the sea with doors when it burst forth from the womb? 

6)  Have you commanded the morning since your days began and caused the dawn to know its place? 

7)  Have you entered into the springs of the sea, or walked in the recesses of the deep? 

8)  Have the gates of death been revealed to you, or have you seen the gates of deep darkness? 

9)  Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth? 

10) Where is the way to the dwelling of light? 

11) Have you entered the storehouses of the snow? 

12) Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades, or loose the cords of Orion? 

13)  Can you lift up your voice to the clouds that a flood of waters may cover you? 

14)  Can you send forth lightnings, that they may go and say to you, 'Here we are'?

15)  Can you hunt the prey for the lion, or satisfy the appetite of the young lions? 

16)  Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God and wander about for lack of food? 

17) Do you give the horse his might?  He goes out to meet the weapons.  He laughs at fear, and is not dismayed; he does not turn back from the sword. 

18)  Is it by your wisdom that the hawk soars, and spreads his wings toward the south? 

19) Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up and makes his nest on high? 

20) Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty?  He who argues with God, let him answer it.

 

extra credit:           make a fly   

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:RatDog

oopsie - double post

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote:RatDog

Fonzie wrote:

RatDog wrote:

 

1)  Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?  Tell me, if you have understanding. 

2)  Who determined its measurements - surely you know !

3)  Who stretched the line upon it? 

4)  On what were its bases sunk, or Who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

5)  Who shut in the sea with doors when it burst forth from the womb? 

6)  Have you commanded the morning since your days began and caused the dawn to know its place? 

7)  Have you entered into the springs of the sea, or walked in the recesses of the deep? 

8)  Have the gates of death been revealed to you, or have you seen the gates of deep darkness? 

9)  Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth? 

10) Where is the way to the dwelling of light? 

11) Have you entered the storehouses of the snow? 

12) Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades, or loose the cords of Orion? 

13)  Can you lift up your voice to the clouds that a flood of waters may cover you? 

14)  Can you send forth lightnings, that they may go and say to you, 'Here we are'?

15)  Can you hunt the prey for the lion, or satisfy the appetite of the young lions? 

16)  Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God and wander about for lack of food? 

17) Do you give the horse his might?  He goes out to meet the weapons.  He laughs at fear, and is not dismayed; he does not turn back from the sword. 

18)  Is it by your wisdom that the hawk soars, and spreads his wings toward the south? 

19) Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up and makes his nest on high? 

20) Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty?  He who argues with God, let him answer it.

 

extra credit:           make a fly   

 

 

 

1. How nice. You've gone from claiming to be Jesus to claiming to be his father and using bad science to do it.

2. Make a fly what?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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[Fonzie responded to

[Fonzie responded to RatDog's posting of Edward Current's clever satire video]

Fonzie wrote:

1)  Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?  Tell me, if you have understanding. 

2)  Who determined its measurements - surely you know !

3)  Who stretched the line upon it? 

4)  On what were its bases sunk, or Who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

5)  Who shut in the sea with doors when it burst forth from the womb? 

6)  Have you commanded the morning since your days began and caused the dawn to know its place? 

7)  Have you entered into the springs of the sea, or walked in the recesses of the deep? 

8)  Have the gates of death been revealed to you, or have you seen the gates of deep darkness? 

9)  Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth? 

10) Where is the way to the dwelling of light? 

11) Have you entered the storehouses of the snow? 

12) Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades, or loose the cords of Orion? 

13)  Can you lift up your voice to the clouds that a flood of waters may cover you? 

14)  Can you send forth lightnings, that they may go and say to you, 'Here we are'?

15)  Can you hunt the prey for the lion, or satisfy the appetite of the young lions? 

16)  Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God and wander about for lack of food? 

17) Do you give the horse his might?  He goes out to meet the weapons.  He laughs at fear, and is not dismayed; he does not turn back from the sword. 

18)  Is it by your wisdom that the hawk soars, and spreads his wings toward the south? 

19) Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up and makes his nest on high? 

Oh, lovely.  A reference to the book of Job.  Let me summarize it for everyone:

God and Satan are having a pissing match.  Satan dares God to fuck with his faithful servant, Job, to see if Job will remain faithful to God in hardship as well as in plenty.  God takes the dare, apparently caring more for what Satan thinks of him than he does for Job's well-being and happiness.  God, goaded by Satan, does almost every imaginable horrible but non-lethal thing to Job until, eventually, at the end of all these torments, Job dares to question God.  God is outraged at Job's audacity and responds with what I will summarize as, "I'm God and you're not so shut the fuck up!"

 

Fonzie wrote:
20) Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty?  He who argues with God, let him answer it.

I'll contend with the "Almighty" if he ever dares to show his wicked face to me.  He won't, of course.  Other peoples' imaginary friends are like that.

 

Fonzie wrote:
extra credit:           make a fly  

I can't -- but neither can your Imaginary SuperFriend in the Sky.  Evolution makes flies and those who prefer delusion to reality imagine that Sky Pixies speak pesky critters into existence.

 

 

 

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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1)  Where were you when I

1)  Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?  Tell me, if you have understanding. 

I was not born. Nor were you, and nor were the authors of the Bible. Also just in case you were wondering the earth really has no foundation... yeah them scientists tell us it's a roughly spherical object in orbit around the sun.

2)  Who determined its measurements - surely you know!

It's measurements were determined by the amount of matter available and the amount of gravity pulling it together.

3)  Who stretched the line upon it? 

Come again? What line?

4)  On what were its bases sunk, or Who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

The earth actually has no base, nor any corners, once again you seem to be getting caught up on the fact that it isn't actually flat. Also to the best of my knowledge stars don't actually sing... as in ever.

5)  Who shut in the sea with doors when it burst forth from the womb?

Right... what doors and whose womb are you talking about? I've never before heard that the sea was shut in by doors, or that it came from a womb.

6)  Have you commanded the morning since your days began and caused the dawn to know its place?

I certainly command the dawn every bit as much as any god does. I tell the earth to keep rotating at the same speed, and surprise surprise it keeps rotating at that speed. Either god's dishing out the same command I am, or he doesn't have much control over the dawn does he?

7)  Have you entered into the springs of the sea, or walked in the recesses of the deep?

I've gone swimming, in some of the best beaches in the world no less. Sadly no my body would succumb to pressure if I were to dive down into the depths of the ocean.

8)  Have the gates of death been revealed to you, or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?

Well... I've known people that've died. Their bodies, their minds, and their "souls" died with them... decaying into dust no doubt.

9)  Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth? 

Well yeah... not hard really. Going round the equator once is about the same distance as driving from Adelaide to Melbourne 56 times.

10) Where is the way to the dwelling of light?

Sigh... these really mean nothing. Not only do they mean nothing they highlight god's (or the author's) lack of scientific knowledge.

11) Have you entered the storehouses of the snow?

Well thanks to science, we now know that snow doesn't come from store houses. I've flown through clouds a couple times in my life sure.

12) Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades, or loose the cords of Orion?

More meaningless garbage.

13)  Can you lift up your voice to the clouds that a flood of waters may cover you?

Is this talking about cloud seeding?

14)  Can you send forth lightnings, that they may go and say to you, 'Here we are'?

Well this guy has:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=cEeWtBAE5LY

Yes that plasma arc is what's causing the sound.

15)  Can you hunt the prey for the lion, or satisfy the appetite of the young lions? 

Many zoos keep lions. Keeping them fed is hardly a big deal.

16)  Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God and wander about for lack of food?

The mice or seeds or whatever it is that ravens eat provide the prey, and the ravens provide for their young. It certainly sounds as though God answers the prayers of baby ravens, I always assumed it was only humans that were able to ask God to do things.

17) Do you give the horse his might?  He goes out to meet the weapons.  He laughs at fear, and is not dismayed; he does not turn back from the sword.

The chaff and pastures that feed it give it it's strength. Do you really think people went to war on unbroken horses? The training is what prevents the horse from turning back at the sword. 

18)  Is it by your wisdom that the hawk soars, and spreads his wings toward the south?

Do hawks even migrate? Regardless it's by the hawk's wisdom, ie. intuition.

19) Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up and makes his nest on high? 

See previous answer.

20) Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty?  He who argues with God, let him answer it.

Well I'm waiting, but really not expecting a reply. Well not from God at least.

extra credit:           make a fly

How about you do it? I mean after all if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you should be able to move a mountain. I mean making a fly should be a piece of cake really. 

 

 


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It's the time honored "you

It's the time honored "you can't ask any questions about my magic man! He's...he's magic, that's what he is!" ploy.

Fonzie, I thought you were better than this.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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RING THE ATHEIST BELL

jcgadfly wrote:

It's the time honored "you can't ask any questions about my magic man! He's...he's magic, that's what he is!" ploy.

Fonzie, I thought you were better than this.

 

JcGadfly,

I think you've rung the atheist bell, friends flying in from all over (like buzzards on a bloated rhino saying - JcGadfly, "it doesn't get any better than this!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

It's the time honored "you can't ask any questions about my magic man! He's...he's magic, that's what he is!" ploy.

Fonzie, I thought you were better than this.

 

JcGadfly,

I think you've rung the atheist bell, friends flying in from all over (like buzzards on a bloated rhino saying - JcGadfly, "it doesn't get any better than this!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Calling your arguments a bloated rhino carcass is giving them too much credit.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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GOOD TASTES BAD

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

It's the time honored "you can't ask any questions about my magic man! He's...he's magic, that's what he is!" ploy.

Fonzie, I thought you were better than this.

 

JcGadfly,

I think you've rung the atheist bell, friends flying in from all over (like buzzards on a bloated rhino saying - JcGadfly, "it doesn't get any better than this!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Calling your arguments a bloated rhino carcass is giving them too much credit.

 

JcGadfly,

I wouldn't argue with how things taste to you JcGadfly.  Good tastes bad, bad tastes good.

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

It's the time honored "you can't ask any questions about my magic man! He's...he's magic, that's what he is!" ploy.

Fonzie, I thought you were better than this.

 

JcGadfly,

I think you've rung the atheist bell, friends flying in from all over (like buzzards on a bloated rhino saying - JcGadfly, "it doesn't get any better than this!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Calling your arguments a bloated rhino carcass is giving them too much credit.

 

JcGadfly,

I wouldn't argue with how things taste to you JcGadfly.  Good tastes bad, bad tastes good.

 

Why would you argue with me about what you're swallowing? I'm at least taking the time to inspect my food instead of taking the word of a 2000 year old menu for a restaurant filled with health code violations.

Besides, as an employee of that restaurant, you're hardly a trustworthy food critic.

Customer loyalty is fine but throw in a little caveat emptor, OK? I'd ask you to taste your food but your employment required you to have your tongue cut out.

(Yes, I know he's playing the false dichotomy game - I just want to see how far he wants to go with the metaphor)

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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NoDeity wrote:Yeah, but you

NoDeity wrote:

Yeah, but you choose to see "spirit" everywhere.

 

This.  Miracle claims and 'feeling the faith' arguments always make me feel like I am talking to Luminon...same story, same arguments, but totally different 'Truth'.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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EATING AT THE HOUSE OF WISDOM

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

It's the time honored "you can't ask any questions about my magic man! He's...he's magic, that's what he is!" ploy.

Fonzie, I thought you were better than this.

 

JcGadfly,

I think you've rung the atheist bell, friends flying in from all over (like buzzards on a bloated rhino saying - JcGadfly, "it doesn't get any better than this!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Calling your arguments a bloated rhino carcass is giving them too much credit.

 

JcGadfly,

I wouldn't argue with how things taste to you JcGadfly.  Good tastes bad, bad tastes good.

 

Why would you argue with me about what you're swallowing? I'm at least taking the time to inspect my food instead of taking the word of a 2000 year old menu for a restaurant filled with health code violations.

Besides, as an employee of that restaurant, you're hardly a trustworthy food critic.

Customer loyalty is fine but throw in a little caveat emptor, OK? I'd ask you to taste your food but your employment required you to have your tongue cut out.

(Yes, I know he's playing the false dichotomy game - I just want to see how far he wants to go with the metaphor)

 

JcGadfly,

The specialty at your restaurant is ptomaine JcGadfly, stolen water, bread eaten in secret in company with the guests from the depths of Sheol.   While it's true you can make cake out of manure, when you're done it's manure cake.  You can't fix the problem with new silverware, decorating, or decor - the source of supply is the problem.  You need a new supplier, new everything.

I drink flowing water from the rock, manna from heaven in company with the lowly.  My restaurant is located (as promised) in a land of milk and honey (from the eater came something to eat, from the strong came something sweet).  There's new wine in new wineskins.  Lighting is warm-glow, fragrant, ambient oil.  Security is the best!  There are seven pillars, the table is set, there are maids to serve - there's advertisements on the highest places in town - I'm sure you've heard the call to eat here.  Here's the menu:  

slaughtered beasts

water from the rock

bread from heaven (manna)

new wine

milk and honey and honeycomb

fruit from the tree of life

settings of silver and gold

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

It's the time honored "you can't ask any questions about my magic man! He's...he's magic, that's what he is!" ploy.

Fonzie, I thought you were better than this.

 

JcGadfly,

I think you've rung the atheist bell, friends flying in from all over (like buzzards on a bloated rhino saying - JcGadfly, "it doesn't get any better than this!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Calling your arguments a bloated rhino carcass is giving them too much credit.

 

JcGadfly,

I wouldn't argue with how things taste to you JcGadfly.  Good tastes bad, bad tastes good.

 

Why would you argue with me about what you're swallowing? I'm at least taking the time to inspect my food instead of taking the word of a 2000 year old menu for a restaurant filled with health code violations.

Besides, as an employee of that restaurant, you're hardly a trustworthy food critic.

Customer loyalty is fine but throw in a little caveat emptor, OK? I'd ask you to taste your food but your employment required you to have your tongue cut out.

(Yes, I know he's playing the false dichotomy game - I just want to see how far he wants to go with the metaphor)

 

JcGadfly,

The specialty at your restaurant is ptomaine JcGadfly, stolen water, bread eaten in secret in company with the guests from the depths of Sheol.   While it's true you can make cake out of manure, when you're done it's manure cake.  You can't fix the problem with new silverware, decorating, or decor - the source of supply is the problem.  You need a new supplier, new everything.

I drink flowing water from the rock, manna from heaven in company with the lowly.  My restaurant is located (as promised) in a land of milk and honey (from the eater came something to eat, from the strong came something sweet).  There's new wine in new wineskins.  Lighting is warm-glow, fragrant, ambient oil.  Security is the best!  There are seven pillars, the table is set, there are maids to serve - there's advertisements on the highest places in town - I'm sure you've heard the call to eat here.  Here's the menu:  

slaughtered beasts

water from the rock

bread from heaven (manna)

new wine

milk and honey and honeycomb

fruit from the tree of life

settings of silver and gold

 

 

 

So you're taking the menu at face value instead of looking at what is on your plate?

Afraid of what you might see? I understand.

Gorging yourself on human flesh (cooked with the flames of war and terror), besotting yourself with the blood of children.

Then again - that could well be your favorite meal. You want to be like your God, right?

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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ALL COMES DOWN FROM MANAGEMENT

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

It's the time honored "you can't ask any questions about my magic man! He's...he's magic, that's what he is!" ploy.

Fonzie, I thought you were better than this.

 

JcGadfly,

I think you've rung the atheist bell, friends flying in from all over (like buzzards on a bloated rhino saying - JcGadfly, "it doesn't get any better than this!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Calling your arguments a bloated rhino carcass is giving them too much credit.

 

JcGadfly,

I wouldn't argue with how things taste to you JcGadfly.  Good tastes bad, bad tastes good.

 

Why would you argue with me about what you're swallowing? I'm at least taking the time to inspect my food instead of taking the word of a 2000 year old menu for a restaurant filled with health code violations.

Besides, as an employee of that restaurant, you're hardly a trustworthy food critic.

Customer loyalty is fine but throw in a little caveat emptor, OK? I'd ask you to taste your food but your employment required you to have your tongue cut out.

(Yes, I know he's playing the false dichotomy game - I just want to see how far he wants to go with the metaphor)

 

JcGadfly,

The specialty at your restaurant is ptomaine JcGadfly, stolen water, bread eaten in secret in company with the guests from the depths of Sheol.   While it's true you can make cake out of manure, when you're done it's manure cake.  You can't fix the problem with new silverware, decorating, or decor - the source of supply is the problem.  You need a new supplier, new everything.

I drink flowing water from the rock, manna from heaven in company with the lowly.  My restaurant is located (as promised) in a land of milk and honey (from the eater came something to eat, from the strong came something sweet).  There's new wine in new wineskins.  Lighting is warm-glow, fragrant, ambient oil.  Security is the best!  There are seven pillars, the table is set, there are maids to serve - there's advertisements on the highest places in town - I'm sure you've heard the call to eat here.  Here's the menu:  

slaughtered beasts

water from the rock

bread from heaven (manna)

new wine

milk and honey and honeycomb

fruit from the tree of life

settings of silver and gold

 

 

 

So you're taking the menu at face value instead of looking at what is on your plate?

Afraid of what you might see? I understand.

Gorging yourself on human flesh (cooked with the flames of war and terror), besotting yourself with the blood of children.

Then again - that could well be your favorite meal. You want to be like your God, right?

 

 

 

It's total faith in management JcGadfly.  I don't plan the menu, don't aim to ever complain about what's on the table.  Like the Quaker Oats box says, "there's nothing better for thee than Me".  Eye-wink  I can tell by the things you mention you are getting pretty hungry there - everything bitter is sweet.  If you emptied the garbage out of your vessel you would be eligible for filling rather than what you're doing, mocking.  I do want to imitate God yes - I don't want His job however.  I can't cook,  create, or convert the likes of you. 

 

 

"He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich He has sent empty away".  (God)

 

 



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Fonzie wrote:  I do want to

Fonzie wrote:
  I do want to imitate God yes - I don't want His job however.  I can't cook,  create, or convert the likes of you.

Indeed!  Imaginary friends are awesome.  They can do anything you might imagine.  Sticking out tongue

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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VACUUM OF THOUGHT/ MIND/ SOUL/ SPIRIT/ UNDERSTANDING

NoDeity wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
  I do want to imitate God yes - I don't want His job however.  I can't cook,  create, or convert the likes of you.

Indeed!  Imaginary friends are awesome.  They can do anything you might imagine.  Sticking out tongue

 

 

NoDeity, no knowledge of God, no understanding, no wisdom, no promise, no explanation, no acceptance of truth, no motivation from God's offer of grace, no oil for your lamp, no water from the rock, no manna from heaven, no hope beyond death, no experience of eternity now in Christ, no light of the Holy Spirit, no spiritual furniture, no true freedom, no true joy, no fellowship with God, no light on your path, no cleansing blood, no new heart, no life, no eyes of faith, no ear to the Master's Voice, no peace that passes understanding, no abundant life, no joy in trials, no view of yourself as you truly are, no idea what you're stumbling over.

Yet you think you are doing great.  Hmmmm     

Who has unfounded imagination in this party?       

clue:  (Not yo)   (a little Spanish lingo there)


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Fonzie,It is amazing what

Fonzie,

It is amazing what one can swallow when they stop thinking, isn't it?

You can cook up all kinds of poison and call it food.

Oh and for the record, I have nothing against God.

That thing you call master, I've got problems with. It's already been shown to be non-Biblical. The only advantage it seems to give you is that it allows you to show how prideful you are because you are its only follower.

You might be surprised when you're sitting by the fire and wonder how YOU wound up in Hell.

 

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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COMMON GROUNDS?

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie,

It is amazing what one can swallow when they stop thinking, isn't it?

You can cook up all kinds of poison and call it food.

Oh and for the record, I have nothing against God.

That thing you call master, I've got problems with. It's already been shown to be non-Biblical. The only advantage it seems to give you is that it allows you to show how prideful you are because you are its only follower.

You might be surprised when you're sitting by the fire and wonder how YOU wound up in Hell.

 

 

 

JcGadfly,

Our differences are as fundamental as it gets.  You have a different God, you mean different things with words you use than I do, you have a different view of yourself and the world around you than I do, a different view of authority, a different view of life and death, a different view of Jesus,  happiness, right and wrong, fear, respect, sin, hell, the Devil, the Scriptures, who's who, what's what, etc ad infinity......

Do you like coffee? 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie,

It is amazing what one can swallow when they stop thinking, isn't it?

You can cook up all kinds of poison and call it food.

Oh and for the record, I have nothing against God.

That thing you call master, I've got problems with. It's already been shown to be non-Biblical. The only advantage it seems to give you is that it allows you to show how prideful you are because you are its only follower.

You might be surprised when you're sitting by the fire and wonder how YOU wound up in Hell.

 

 

 

 

JcGadfly,

Our differences are as fundamental as it gets.  You have a different God, you mean different things with words you use than I do, you have a different view of yourself and the world around you than I do, a different view of authority, a different view of life and death, a different view of Jesus,  happiness, right and wrong, fear, respect, sin, hell, the Devil, the Scriptures, who's who, what's what, etc ad infinity......

Do you like coffee? 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps - I'm interested in the God of the Bible. Which God are you serving?

On the coffee - are you buying?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote:NoDeity

Fonzie wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
  I do want to imitate God yes - I don't want His job however.  I can't cook,  create, or convert the likes of you.

Indeed!  Imaginary friends are awesome.  They can do anything you might imagine.  Sticking out tongue

 

 

NoDeity, no knowledge of God, no understanding, no wisdom, no promise, no explanation, no acceptance of truth, no motivation from God's offer of grace, no oil for your lamp, no water from the rock, no manna from heaven, no hope beyond death, no experience of eternity now in Christ, no light of the Holy Spirit, no spiritual furniture, no true freedom, no true joy, no fellowship with God, no light on your path, no cleansing blood, no new heart, no life, no eyes of faith, no ear to the Master's Voice, no peace that passes understanding, no abundant life, no joy in trials, no view of yourself as you truly are, no idea what you're stumbling over.

Yet you think you are doing great.  Hmmmm     

Who has unfounded imagination in this party?       

clue:  (Not yo)   (a little Spanish lingo there)

Yay!  We get to see more Christian hubris!  I'm going to break it down a bit, just for fun:

 

Fonzie wrote:
NoDeity, no knowledge of God,

Well, I have knowledge of the fictional character "God" as portrayed in the Bible but it's true that I have no knowledge of any actual being "God" -- but, then, neither do you.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no understanding,

Actually, I understand the Bible and Christianity very well.  That's one of the reasons that I became an atheist.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no wisdom,

[shrug]  I've got a pretty good life.  I must be doing something right.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no promise,

I promise you that you don't know enough about me to say that.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no explanation,

I've got some explanations -- good ones, testable ones.  Christianity, though, in its usual arrogance, claims to have the ultimate explanation but, when that explanation is examined closely and rationally, it turns out to be empty.  Poor, poor Christians! 

 

Fonzie wrote:
no acceptance of truth,

I'll accept anything if you can back it up with sound reasoning and testable evidence.  You don't deal in such things, though.  Of course not -- if you want to keep your faith, you can't afford to value reason.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no motivation from God's offer of grace,

Neither am I motivated by God's threat of eternal torment.  You see, I have learned not to let fictional characters direct my life.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no oil for your lamp,

Actually, I do happen to have lamp oil.  Someone gave my wife and I a beautiful oil lamp as a wedding gift and we still use it now and then.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no water from the rock,

Our drinking water comes from a water treatment plant which is fed by a stream that is fed by a lake, which is fed by rain and melting snow from a local mountain.  I used to live in a little log cabin which had well water, which I suppose is kind of like water from rock.  Oh, wait.  You're talking about that silly story about Moses in Numbers 20:11.  Well, you're right -- I don't have anything like that.  Of course, neither does anyone else so that's okay.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no manna from heaven,

That's just as well.  I don't know if God has his Food Safe certificate.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no hope beyond death,

That's true.  I don't have the false hope of eternal life to which you Christians cling.  I have learned to value and enjoy my life without that particular lie.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no experience of eternity now in Christ,

Pick one: eternity or now.  They are mutually exclusive concepts.  I know, I know...  You're going to say that I don't understand it because I'm not wearing my Magic Jesus Glasses.  But then I'll just respond that it's actually because I value reason.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no light of the Holy Spirit,

No, but I've got a helluva good flashlight which beats the "light of the Holy Spirit" because it actually exists and is good for something.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no spiritual furniture,

LOL!  Well, I prefer physical furniture, for the same reasons that I prefer my flashlight.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no true freedom, no true joy,

For me, intellectual and emotional freedom began for me on the day that I was finally able to admit to myself that I no longer believed in God.  From that flowed the ability to find and know joy in reality as opposed to the desperate kind of "joy" that is dependent on delusion and lies.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no fellowship with God,

Nor with the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no light on your path,

Remember what I was telling you about the flashlight?

 

Fonzie wrote:
no cleansing blood,

Icky!  I find that soap works a lot better for washing than does any bodily fluid.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no new heart,

Well, the old one is working just fine.  If it ain't broke, why replace it?

 

Fonzie wrote:
no life,

Hee!  I just love the fantastic arrogance of someone who knows almost nothing about me declaring that I have no life. 

 

Fonzie wrote:
no eyes of faith,

No, not anymore.  I outgrew that childishness.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no ear to the Master's Voice,

[shrug] I try not to serve any master.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no peace that passes understanding,

Actually, I often find myself being quite peaceful and optimistic at times when I could be excused for being anxious.   No deity required.  It's just a personality trait that I happen to have.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no abundant life,

I'm a pretty good gardener and my peppers provided me with an abundant crop last summer.  Does that count?  Sticking out tongue

 

Fonzie wrote:
no joy in trials,

I've had good times, I've had hard times.  I know what it's like to have the money rolling in and I know what it's like to subsist on almost nothing.  I know what it's like to have my heart broken by someone I love and I know what it's like to love and be loved back tenfold.  The good times are better but it is my nature to have a core of positivity even in my lowest moments.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no view of yourself as you truly are,

That was true when I was like you, an arrogant and self-deluded religionist.

 

Fonzie wrote:
no idea what you're stumbling over.

I very clearly understand what you think you have and I very clearly understand the reasons that I have rejected that foolish, harmful nonsense.  Jesus is a stumbling stone only to those who believe in him.  You have stumbled yourself into a sadly deluded state of mind.

 

 

 

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS TOO

 

NoDeity,

 

You define confidence and faith as arrogance. 

I'm not sure how you define your quitting the race - righteous maybe? 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote: NoDeity, You

Fonzie wrote:

 

NoDeity,

 

You define confidence and faith as arrogance.

Confidence that is in excess of reasonable grounds for having such confidence is, by definition, arrogance.  Your presumption in making a series of declarations about me is also an excellent example of arrogance.  If you don't understand that, it's okay; I don't expect a person who values faith over reason to comprehend these matters.

 

Fonzie wrote:
I'm not sure how you define your quitting the race - righteous maybe?  

To stop believing when one discovers that one's beliefs are not grounded in reason and evidence is -- wait for it! -- rational.

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.