It works for me!

Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
DEVIL'S WATERBOY

jcgadfly wrote:

Funny how you discuss people who would corrupt science for money and completely ignore those who sell God.

Do those guys do good (no matter who gets hurt) because they work for your boy?

 

JcGadfly,

No, I mentioned it using the metaphor of those who have "spun out" and are in the ditch on the road of faith.  I might have however made the mistake of assuming we already understood and discussed the "golden gospel" hypocrites.  Of course we know that.  But if so, sorry for assuming.  Yes that is certainly a reality.  I can't restrain your wind, JcGadfly.  I can't mention everything every time that you can point finger to.  The fact that you can find something always to criticize doesn't establish your better way.   

And, BTW, your master has you as the "water boy" - the polluted water - he's the liar and tyrant who tells you what to think and what to think about it - and fills you with a constant stream of lies to keep you enslaved and have you thinking there's nothing better than being a fly on a cow pie (from a cow that God created and from which you choose to bottom feed).  You couldn't get free on your own.  And then you flip off the ONE Who would help the likes of you get free JcGadfly.  And you want to teach the class?  

 

"there are those - how lofty are their eyes, how high their eyelids lift!"  (God)

 

 

 

 

 


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5094
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
You are a pompus twat

 

Fonzie. You offer no proofs just oceans of dogma with a pious undercurrent of adhoms. It's simply vile stuff.

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
WHAT HAVE YOU

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Fonzie. You offer no proofs just oceans of dogma with a pious undercurrent of adhoms. It's simply vile stuff.

 

 

 

 

Atheistetremist,

What I am offering is out in the open and transparent and a total package in the gospel.  What you are doing is simply shooting from behind trees.  Any kid can kill a bird with a bb gun.  But what have you produced?  What have you brought out as the way to go?  What is your direction and what is your inspiration?  What is your confidence in and why?  Is your god above you, below you, or just you?  What is your purpose in life?  What is the meaning of life and death - or do you say it has no meaning?  Is this world having contractions that are heading toward birth?  If so, what is it heading toward - according to you or your field lights.  You have presented nothing to criticize it's true - is it because you have nothing? 

What I am saying is: walking by faith in Jesus works - and in every way.  It has direction; the right direction.  It propels ahead and solves the past, it is in tune to the present living Christ.  The personal experience is in harmony with that described in the Bible by others who experienced the same joys.  I believe in Jesus and it works for me.  What works for you?  How and why does it work?  Describe why it motivates you and what it's heading toward.  What is it that you can put your whole life energy into and why?  And if I am offering you a better way, wouldn't it be wise to accept it? 

 

 

"when the wicked dies, his hope perishes, and the expectation of the godless comes to nought."  (God)

 


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Funny how you discuss people who would corrupt science for money and completely ignore those who sell God.

Do those guys do good (no matter who gets hurt) because they work for your boy?

 

JcGadfly,

No, I mentioned it using the metaphor of those who have "spun out" and are in the ditch on the road of faith.  I might have however made the mistake of assuming we already understood and discussed the "golden gospel" hypocrites.  Of course we know that.  But if so, sorry for assuming.  Yes that is certainly a reality.  I can't restrain your wind, JcGadfly.  I can't mention everything every time that you can point finger to.  The fact that you can find something always to criticize doesn't establish your better way.   

And, BTW, your master has you as the "water boy" - the polluted water - he's the liar and tyrant who tells you what to think and what to think about it - and fills you with a constant stream of lies to keep you enslaved and have you thinking there's nothing better than being a fly on a cow pie (from a cow that God created and from which you choose to bottom feed).  You couldn't get free on your own.  And then you flip off the ONE Who would help the likes of you get free JcGadfly.  And you want to teach the class?  

 

"there are those - how lofty are their eyes, how high their eyelids lift!"  (God)

 

 

 

 

 

My problem is that you are confusing the "ONE"s. Perhaps Jesus could help me get free - unfortunately all you're offering me is you.

No substitutions please.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5094
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Well, Fonzie.

Fonzie wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

Fonzie. You offer no proofs just oceans of dogma with a pious undercurrent of adhoms. It's simply vile stuff.

Atheistetremist,

What I am offering is out in the open and transparent and a total package in the gospel.  What you are doing is simply shooting from behind trees.  Any kid can kill a bird with a bb gun.  But what have you produced?  What have you brought out as the way to go?  What is your direction and what is your inspiration?  What is your confidence in and why?  Is your god above you, below you, or just you?  What is your purpose in life?  What is the meaning of life and death - or do you say it has no meaning?  Is this world having contractions that are heading toward birth?  If so, what is it heading toward - according to you or your field lights.  You have presented nothing to criticize it's true - is it because you have nothing? 

What I am saying is: walking by faith in Jesus works - and in every way.  It has direction; the right direction.  It propels ahead and solves the past, it is in tune to the present living Christ.  The personal experience is in harmony with that described in the Bible by others who experienced the same joys.  I believe in Jesus and it works for me.  What works for you?  How and why does it work?  Describe why it motivates you and what it's heading toward.  What is it that you can put your whole life energy into and why?  And if I am offering you a better way, wouldn't it be wise to accept it? 

 

"when the wicked dies, his hope perishes, and the expectation of the godless comes to nought."  (God)

 

 

I'm sorry I don't have a great counter doctrine to offer you. As a preacher's/missionary's son I have a more than usually coherent understanding of the bible and I believe it is unsupported by the evidence. I don't know how we got here and I don't know why we are here. But here we are and must do the best we can. There is a purity to this belief I doubt you can understand. I prefer to rely on what can be proven through experiment rather than just swallowing jesus whole. Now, I would not take umbrage with your position but for the fact that god is a merciless bastard. The idea he plans a gigantic holocaust as part of some confusion over the concept of forgiveness is just too much for me - discounting the fact he's invisible.

I'm sniping because I don't really want to talk to you about this. Your opinions and your narrowness of mind are perfectly understood by me. Fundamentalist christians are identical the world over. You and I have nothing to offer each other, Fonzie. I would have kept my mouth shut if you hadn't told Gadfly he was Satan's bugger boy. I just don't know where you people get off coming out with such things. Gadfly is actually talking sense and being impossibly respectful and you're calling him a servant of satan. Nice work.

Moving on, clearly a literal interpretation of the bible and the fuzz and fluff of jesus appeal to you but some of us try to come to terms with actual reality. Being told we are evil for doing so is  profoundly insulting. I know a lot of christians, including my own family, and none of them are any better or less sinful than I am in any obvious way. In fact I would venture to say they are more dishonest than I and bend the truth to fit things they need to believe to be happy in life. Christianity lost me with the insistence that the ultimate sin was not questioning the dogma. Your mailed fist in a pathetically velveted glove sermonising is simply an agony to bear. I'll try not to interrupt your outpourings again.

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
NO KNOW-VILLE

Atheistextremist wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

Fonzie. You offer no proofs just oceans of dogma with a pious undercurrent of adhoms. It's simply vile stuff.

Atheistetremist,

What I am offering is out in the open and transparent and a total package in the gospel.  What you are doing is simply shooting from behind trees.  Any kid can kill a bird with a bb gun.  But what have you produced?  What have you brought out as the way to go?  What is your direction and what is your inspiration?  What is your confidence in and why?  Is your god above you, below you, or just you?  What is your purpose in life?  What is the meaning of life and death - or do you say it has no meaning?  Is this world having contractions that are heading toward birth?  If so, what is it heading toward - according to you or your field lights.  You have presented nothing to criticize it's true - is it because you have nothing? 

What I am saying is: walking by faith in Jesus works - and in every way.  It has direction; the right direction.  It propels ahead and solves the past, it is in tune to the present living Christ.  The personal experience is in harmony with that described in the Bible by others who experienced the same joys.  I believe in Jesus and it works for me.  What works for you?  How and why does it work?  Describe why it motivates you and what it's heading toward.  What is it that you can put your whole life energy into and why?  And if I am offering you a better way, wouldn't it be wise to accept it? 

 

"when the wicked dies, his hope perishes, and the expectation of the godless comes to nought."  (God)

 

 

I'm sorry I don't have a great counter doctrine to offer you. As a preacher's/missionary's son I have a more than usually coherent understanding of the bible and I believe it is unsupported by the evidence. I don't know how we got here and I don't know why we are here. But here we are and must do the best we can. There is a purity to this belief I doubt you can understand. I prefer to rely on what can be proven through experiment rather than just swallowing jesus whole. Now, I would not take umbrage with your position but for the fact that god is a merciless bastard. The idea he plans a gigantic holocaust as part of some confusion over the concept of forgiveness is just too much for me - discounting the fact he's invisible.

I'm sniping because I don't really want to talk to you about this. Your opinions and your narrowness of mind are perfectly understood by me. Fundamentalist christians are identical the world over. You and I have nothing to offer each other, Fonzie. I would have kept my mouth shut if you hadn't told Gadfly he was Satan's bugger boy. I just don't know where you people get off coming out with such things. Gadfly is actually talking sense and being impossibly respectful and you're calling him a servant of satan. Nice work.

Moving on, clearly a literal interpretation of the bible and the fuzz and fluff of jesus appeal to you but some of us try to come to terms with actual reality. Being told we are evil for doing so is  profoundly insulting. I know a lot of christians, including my own family, and none of them are any better or less sinful than I am in any obvious way. In fact I would venture to say they are more dishonest than I and bend the truth to fit things they need to believe to be happy in life. Christianity lost me with the insistence that the ultimate sin was not questioning the dogma. Your mailed fist in a pathetically velveted glove sermonising is simply an agony to bear. I'll try not to interrupt your outpourings again.

 

 

 

 

Atheistextremist,

It might be well for you to consider why you are arrogant enough to take shots at your family, all fundamentalist Christians the world over, and even God and His Way of doing things - yet you admit you don't even know why you are here or where here is.  I think it is reasonable to mention to you that it is a great advantage to the Devil to keep you in this false state of pride so he can keep you peddling toward the cliff.

And as far as the "purity" of your empty page - it's the tragic case of the "empty house".  Before long the Devil will fill your page for you (you aren't coming up with anything) and he will put a bunch more demons in your empty house.  It's like the vacuum of a cleaned out garage crying out for junk.  

If you would become like a child and come to Jesus to find the true unseen reality, the unseen eternal world - He would give you a personal tour.  But as it is you have the Good Physician blocked with your feigned wellness and your double-parked pride.

As far as mentioning the Devil to JcGadfly - it is reality that Jesus came to rescue us from this "present evil age" which is enslaved by the Devil.  While the Devil would like to operate unnoticed it is a favor to mention - like the whistle on a train.  It may irritate you but it's good to be warned of his reality.  Jesus said "he who is not for me is against me".  JcGadfly has openly said he is not for Jesus - just like you - therefore the reality is that he and you are under the power of the evil one, the Devil.  You are his slave, you carry water for him.  Jesus is ready to deliver you.  You are too pure for that.  Go figure.  

 

"Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall"  (God) 

 

 

 


NoDeity
Bronze Member
NoDeity's picture
Posts: 268
Joined: 2009-10-13
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie wrote: I have a

Fonzie wrote:
I have a different perspective on science than you do - a lot less faith in it.

I don't have faith in science.  I have confidence in science based on its track record and an understanding of how it works.

 

Fonzie wrote:
From my perspective science changes but the true gospel doesn't.

That's one of the strong points of science.  It always amuses me to see religionists portray it as a weakness.

 

Fonzie wrote:
Science gets infiltrated with political desires and entrenched interests so that when the first guy came along and said there was such a thing as germs causing the birth problems he was disbarred and later put in an asylum.  Why didn't the scientists just accept the reproducible data instead of protecting their proud position? 

Scientists are fallible humans -- just as fallible as the humans who wrote your "gospel" -- and pride, arrogance, and even dishonesty sometimes get in the way of scientific progress.  However, as you may have noticed, science does generally get it right in the long run because scientific methods of investigation have been specifically designed to compensate for human failings.  Unfortunately, it sometimes gets messy.

 

Fonzie wrote:
  That's your smooth road of reason and science.

Please try to be a little more honest in your portrayal of my points.  I haven't claimed that it's a "smooth road".  I've only said that it works.

 

Fonzie wrote:
  Which brings me back to faith in God.  Ignoring all the "faith professors" in the ditch who spun out on faith's road - the ONE we have faith in is PERFECT. 

That's the advantage of imaginary friends, I suppose.  You can make them out to be anything you like.

 

Fonzie wrote:
  There is no flaw in the Sacrifice - Jesus is perfect and unchanging.

Some sacrifice.  According to the story, it would have been a painful death but certainly no worse than what many others have suffered and, unlike real deaths, it was only temporary.  Frankly, that's not very impressive.

 

[many lines of religious blather deleted]

 

Fonzie wrote:
How can your science produce a "climate of trust"? 

That's not what science is for.  Science is a method of investigation -- no more, no less.

 

Fonzie wrote:
True faith in God can. 

All effective con jobs require the ability to create a "climate of trust".

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5094
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
You must be joking.

Fonzie wrote:

 

Atheistextremist,

It might be well for you to consider why you are arrogant enough to take shots at your family, all fundamentalist Christians the world over, and even God and His Way of doing things - yet you admit you don't even know why you are here or where here is.  I think it is reasonable to mention to you that it is a great advantage to the Devil to keep you in this false state of pride so he can keep you peddling toward the cliff.

And as far as the "purity" of your empty page - it's the tragic case of the "empty house".  Before long the Devil will fill your page for you (you aren't coming up with anything) and he will put a bunch more demons in your empty house.  It's like the vacuum of a cleaned out garage crying out for junk.  

If you would become like a child and come to Jesus to find the true unseen reality, the unseen eternal world - He would give you a personal tour.  But as it is you have the Good Physician blocked with your feigned wellness and your double-parked pride.

As far as mentioning the Devil to JcGadfly - it is reality that Jesus came to rescue us from this "present evil age" which is enslaved by the Devil.  While the Devil would like to operate unnoticed it is a favor to mention - like the whistle on a train.  It may irritate you but it's good to be warned of his reality.  Jesus said "he who is not for me is against me".  JcGadfly has openly said he is not for Jesus - just like you - therefore the reality is that he and you are under the power of the evil one, the Devil.  You are his slave, you carry water for him.  Jesus is ready to deliver you.  You are too pure for that.  Go figure.  

 

"Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall"  (God) 

 

You are just another nutbag peddling tired dogma, Fonzie. Nothing you have said in this long thread could be looked upon as righteous or useful in any way. It's simply a gigantic argument from force. "God is going to kill you if you don't believe". Or an enormous adhom. "You don't believe because you're evil, proud, blinded - because satan owns you, because you are possessed by demons".

No proof. Nothing intelligent. Nothing sensible. All your arguments are outrageous threats or bogus offerings of goodwill. I'd rather be out here with my eyes open honestly trying to understand the universe than in there with you, my eyes tight shut for fear of 'the dark'.

You are the one whose pride is double parked. You are arrogant and pompous and devoid of true feeling as only a fundamentalist christian can be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
And once again, Fonzie/Meph

And once again, Fonzie/Meph confuses himself with Jesus.

Fonzie, I never said I wasn't for Jesus. I do, however, have a problem with your portrayal.

If you're the Christ I'm supposed to be like, I'll pass.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

Christianity lost me with the insistence that the ultimate sin was not questioning the dogma. Your mailed fist in a pathetically velveted glove sermonising is simply an agony to bear. I'll try not to interrupt your outpourings again.

This needs to be packaged in the form of a Bible Tract and sent out to Missionary groups around the world.  Perhaps to their "Customer Complaint" department.

Dear Missionaries,

I'd like to believe in something bigger and more significant in the Universe.  Something that would give life meaning and purpose.  Like, ending poverty and hunger and homelessness and disease and loneliness.  Making the world a better place to live in.  But the people you keep sending out keep telling me I'm going to die and burn in Hell for all eternity if I don't join your club.  Since many of the almost 7 billion people on this planet are suffering in the here-and-now that I know exists, please explain why threatening to kill people is better than giving a damn about their lives today.

Warmest Regards,

Furry Cat Herder,

ex-Christian.

(But I got much better -- now I'm a Jew!)

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
THE BIG SCAM

jcgadfly wrote:

And once again, Fonzie/Meph confuses himself with Jesus.

Fonzie, I never said I wasn't for Jesus. I do, however, have a problem with your portrayal.

If you're the Christ I'm supposed to be like, I'll pass.


JcGadfly,

No I'm not anything at all - but animated dirt with a poor spirit camping inside.  Once again I assumed that my nothingness and Christ's All-Sufficiency had already been discussed - but, anything  to avoid a point I guess. 

I think the thing that makes you recoil is the idea that a person - though but dust and ashes - can be certain of the LORD he believes in.  I think it's a favor to you for me to mention that you could continue in la la land your whole life not finding anything solid to drive your tent peg into.  And maybe keeping everything uncertain represents some kind of freedom to you - all options open,an empty page with endless possibilities.  But the time is short - (and that is a somewhat scientific reasoning).   

You could even think it HAS to be that uncertain way - that everything concerning God and the meaning of life HAS to be an unknown.  I don't think that is the case, and I am 100% sure I - dust and ashes, animated dirt - have found it, and the Bread I've found I'm not withholding from you.  When the sin barrier is out of the way, washed away in the blood of Jesus, God draws you near, writes His Law on your heart, encamps with you.  Then you can with Paul "Know Whom I have believed".  You then can know The Shepherd's Voice and differentiate between it and the "thief's". 

So I have tried to point you - not to me - but to Christ,  with certainty.  You are threatened I think by my certainty.  But know this, I have not presented myself to you as anything other than a sinner needing the grace of God every moment. 

Man runs from God until through Christ the enmity between God and man is removed.  That is the general principle but it could be applied to you personally.  You could appeal to Christ for faith you do not have at the moment, for Him to help your unbelief.   If there is any faith there, you could exercise that and cry out to God. 

It won't be the case that there is a man in hell who cried out to Jesus that Jesus couldn't save.  Think what a dishonor to God that would be.  It will be your own fault if you are lost.  And I'm sure at some point in your life you have been "taken".  You never forget those times.  This is the biggest take going.  If you listen to the Devil and let him make you miss eternal life you will be a  HELL  to yourself - regardless of whether it's a  "smoking or non-smoking" area.   

 

"The fear of the LORD is hatred of evil.  Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.  I have counsel and sound wisdom, I have insight, I have strength.  By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just; by me princes rule, and nobles govern the earth.  I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.  Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and prosperity.  My fruit is better than gold, even fine gold, and my yield than choice silver.  I walk in the way of righteousness, in the paths of justice, endowing with wealth those who love me, and filling their treasuries."  (God) 

 

 

 

 

 

 


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

And once again, Fonzie/Meph confuses himself with Jesus.

Fonzie, I never said I wasn't for Jesus. I do, however, have a problem with your portrayal.

If you're the Christ I'm supposed to be like, I'll pass.


JcGadfly,

No I'm not anything at all - but animated dirt with a poor spirit camping inside.  Once again I assumed that my nothingness and Christ's All-Sufficiency had already been discussed - but, anything  to avoid a point I guess. 

I think the thing that makes you recoil is the idea that a person - though but dust and ashes - can be certain of the LORD he believes in.  I think it's a favor to you for me to mention that you could continue in la la land your whole life not finding anything solid to drive your tent peg into.  And maybe keeping everything uncertain represents some kind of freedom to you - all options open,an empty page with endless possibilities.  But the time is short - (and that is a somewhat scientific reasoning).   

You could even think it HAS to be that uncertain way - that everything concerning God and the meaning of life HAS to be an unknown.  I don't think that is the case, and I am 100% sure I - dust and ashes, animated dirt - have found it, and the Bread I've found I'm not withholding from you.  When the sin barrier is out of the way, washed away in the blood of Jesus, God draws you near, writes His Law on your heart, encamps with you.  Then you can with Paul "Know Whom I have believed".  You then can know The Shepherd's Voice and differentiate between it and the "thief's". 

So I have tried to point you - not to me - but to Christ,  with certainty.  You are threatened I think by my certainty.  But know this, I have not presented myself to you as anything other than a sinner needing the grace of God every moment. 

Man runs from God until through Christ the enmity between God and man is removed.  That is the general principle but it could be applied to you personally.  You could appeal to Christ for faith you do not have at the moment, for Him to help your unbelief.   If there is any faith there, you could exercise that and cry out to God. 

It won't be the case that there is a man in hell who cried out to Jesus that Jesus couldn't save.  Think what a dishonor to God that would be.  It will be your own fault if you are lost.  And I'm sure at some point in your life you have been "taken".  You never forget those times.  This is the biggest take going.  If you listen to the Devil and let him make you miss eternal life you will be a  HELL  to yourself - regardless of whether it's a  "smoking or non-smoking" area.   

 

"The fear of the LORD is hatred of evil.  Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.  I have counsel and sound wisdom, I have insight, I have strength.  By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just; by me princes rule, and nobles govern the earth.  I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.  Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and prosperity.  My fruit is better than gold, even fine gold, and my yield than choice silver.  I walk in the way of righteousness, in the paths of justice, endowing with wealth those who love me, and filling their treasuries."  (God) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course you are certain of your Jesus - you made him. Is he the right one? Well, you're still uncertain. You won't know for sure until you get that death you're looking forward to.

If you really believe you are nothing and Christ is all, why do you still insist that I (and others) have to be like you and obey Jesus your way (not the Biblical way)?

So for you, a belief in magic means freedom. You do have Biblical backing for this. The rest of us have to live by the laws of society because we don't have "God told me to" and "God forgives me" to fall back on when our actions do harm to our fellows. You have freedom, all right - from responsibility. That's OK when you're a kid. Eventually, you have to clean up your own messes and not wait for God to take care of things for you.

And more of the "you have to already have faith in God before you can ask God for the faith you need to have faith in God" stuff. If God has to give you the faith you need to ask him for faith - the process goes nowhere. If you remember, the man you talk about said "I believe - help thou mine unbelief" - he brought faiith in God. God didn't give it to him. If you're going to be a Christian and claim to love the Bible, at least act like you know what it says.

I do enjoy the way you let God off the hook and make it humanity's fault that God sends people to hell. Nothing to do with God's inability or not wanting to reveal himself in a way that everyone can understand with out having to already be in the club.

It's good to know that you have no doubts where God is concerned - it's comforting. Unfortunately, it also means you've stopped thinking and learning (even about him).

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5094
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Get

Fonzie wrote:

It will be your own fault if you are lost.  And I'm sure at some point in your life you have been "taken".  You never forget those times.  This is the biggest take going.  If you listen to the Devil and let him make you miss eternal life you will be a  HELL  to yourself - regardless of whether it's a  "smoking or non-smoking" area.   

 

down on your knees and worship the big stick...

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
READY TO LISTEN

 

 

Ok JcGadfly,

Tell me what you are sure of:

Tell me what you are willing to put all your energy into - and life blood if necessary - and why.

Tell me what the meaning of life is - and the hope you have that goes beyond deathDoes your hope end at death?

What is your ultimate standard for right and wrong and how have you arrived at this decision?  

How are you doing your fellow man the good you have mentioned if YOU are heading the wrong way, or no way, or don't know which way? 

Is it a matter of "I don't know where I'm going or what I'm doing either, so we have a basis for a relationship and we hope to keep it that way"?

Is it a matter of the blind leading the blind and the clueless applauding the clueless, the indecisive glorifying indecision? 

 

I have addressed all these points JcGadfly and all you have done is rage and laugh.  What do you have to offer?  Are your attacks just a distraction for your emptiness?  Don't cartoon this, let's hear your reason for living and loving.  If you are an empty suit have the honesty to admit it JcGadfly.

 

 

 

 

 


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie wrote:  Ok

Fonzie wrote:

 

 

Ok JcGadfly,

Tell me what you are sure of:

Tell me what you are willing to put all your energy into - and life blood if necessary - and why.

Tell me what the meaning of life is - and the hope you have that goes beyond deathDoes your hope end at death?

What is your ultimate standard for right and wrong and how have you arrived at this decision?  

How are you doing your fellow man the good you have mentioned if YOU are heading the wrong way, or no way, or don't know which way? 

Is it a matter of "I don't know where I'm going or what I'm doing either, so we have a basis for a relationship and we hope to keep it that way"?

Is it a matter of the blind leading the blind and the clueless applauding the clueless, the indecisive glorifying indecision? 

 

I have addressed all these points JcGadfly and all you have done is rage and laugh.  What do you have to offer?  Are your attacks just a distraction for your emptiness?  Don't cartoon this, let's hear your reason for living and loving.  If you are an empty suit have the honesty to admit it JcGadfly.

 

 

 

 

 

If you'd addressed those points, I wouldn't keep asking.

"Jesus is so cool" is not an answer to "How is Jesus cool?"

I'm glad he helps you be a good person. I am also sorry that you think you need help to be a good person.

What do I put energy into? Helping my friends, my family and any others that cross my path that I can help.

What would I lay down my life for? Friends and family primarily - others if necessary.

The meaning of your life is what you bring to it while you live it. The fact that we only have one on this earth makes it more precious and what we do with it more important.

What is my standard for right and wrong? I start with Primum non nocere, "First, do no harm" then I add in what you call the "golden rule" which was an ancient concept before it was put into Jesus' mouth.

How am I doing my fellow man good? Practical, useful ways. No details unless you pm me for them (I don't need to brag).

Now, how about you?

Do you think you're doing any good with your "My life with Jesus is so great because he's so cool. If you don't listen to what I say and worship God exactly as I do, you're going to hell"? preaching style? I'll give you a hint - it might help if you didn't sound so cheery about the sending people to hell part.

My reason for living and loving is because it provided good feelings for myself and those I love. Same as your love for Jesus without the fear of hell that you seem to need.

Am I empty inside? Maybe. But I'm not nearly as empty as I was when I was a Christian and being told that God loves me even though I was worthless. It's a very conflicting message - to accept that God loves you you also have to accept that you are worthless. Throw that in with those I thought were good Christians treating others like dung and when called on it saying, "Don't look at me or anyone else - look at Jesus" or "I'm not perfect - just forgiven".

They use it to as an excuse for their actions - what do you use it for?

No cartooning here - I don't think I ever have. I've probably been more honest with you about me than you deserve.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


NoDeity
Bronze Member
NoDeity's picture
Posts: 268
Joined: 2009-10-13
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie wrote: Tell me what

Fonzie wrote:

Tell me what you are sure of:

Tell me what you are willing to put all your energy into - and life blood if necessary - and why.

Tell me what the meaning of life is - and the hope you have that goes beyond deathDoes your hope end at death?

You express certainty and hope but it's all founded on fantasy and lies.  Do you not value reality?  I do and so I find that it is better to have honest uncertainty, doubt, and awareness of the finality of death than to indulge in the delusions that one must necessarily embrace in order to be a true believer in Jesus and the empty promise of eternal life.

 

 

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL

 

NoDeity, JcGadfly, Atheistextremist - and all,

HAPPY NEW YEAR to all of you! 

While we don't find a lot we agree on it's been pretty civil in my opinion.  At least I haven't been offended.  The best to all of you.

 

Fonzie

 

 


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
CERTAINTY

NoDeity wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Tell me what you are sure of:

Tell me what you are willing to put all your energy into - and life blood if necessary - and why.

Tell me what the meaning of life is - and the hope you have that goes beyond deathDoes your hope end at death?

You express certainty and hope but it's all founded on fantasy and lies.  Do you not value reality?  I do and so I find that it is better to have honest uncertainty, doubt, and awareness of the finality of death than to indulge in the delusions that one must necessarily embrace in order to be a true believer in Jesus and the empty promise of eternal life.

 

 

 

NoDeity,

I value reality, yes.  There are real lies.  I believe there is real truth, real peace and real eternal life for real spirits now housed in real but temporary tents. 

There is no real peace in pursuing any form of doing good works in exchange for eternal life or any form of a person's own idea of righteousness.  How would you ever know for certain you had "done enough"?  Plus, if your standards for yourself were even really high and you were cutting it with respect to your standards you know you could blow it at any time.  Christ delivers us from this swamp with creeping doubts and lurking dangers. 

In contrast with the doubt and questions of DIY righteousness, our faith stands solidly on the willing sacrifice of the Perfect Lamb of God - God's Sacrifice, the Body and Blood of Jesus, the Son of God.  We are confident that sacrifice is enough for us and all who believe in the Son of God.  We have inspired Scripture that says the atoning death of Jesus on the Cross pays the price in full.  We know by this plan conceived (as Scripture tells us) before the world was created, and executed as planned - that God loves us all, enemies included. 

The decision that faces all men is to either try to come up with your own form of righteousness which will both fail miserably and make you miserable - or accept the gift of God's Righteousness, which is a gift He gives to us when we believe in Jesus.  To believe in Jesus means real belief as shown in the life of the professing believer. 

You are admittedly having doubts and questions in your pursuit of the right road and reality.  Jesus offers the end of those doubts and questionings by putting all your confidence and faith and trust in Him, What He Said, What He Did.  And you will find if you do He is Alive in you as well, and that fellowship with Him is the abundant life indeed, eternal life, confident life - confidence in Him not in yourself.  A point of how this principle works on a bad day - we can learn like Paul that "when I am weak, then I am strong". 

In other words, the principle really kicks in when we see ourselves as weak, which is reality, because our confidence is not in ourselves but in Jesus.  If you're trying to peddle your way through life achieving what you see as great through your own greatness, when you weaken it falls apart and your house of cards crashes.  But we have peace and help in Christ even when we are weak. 

I have honest doubts too - I honestly doubt the abiity of a man to find his own way.  I doubt the delusions he is invested in thinking he is constructing something that he thinks will stand - though it has no foundation.  He is invested in empty promises he has promised himself and won't be able to deliver.  I'm trusting in One Who will be able to deliver what He has promised.  You see that as delusion, I see that as sound reality confirmed in my personal experience.

 

 

 

 

 

 


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie wrote:NoDeity

Fonzie wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Tell me what you are sure of:

Tell me what you are willing to put all your energy into - and life blood if necessary - and why.

Tell me what the meaning of life is - and the hope you have that goes beyond deathDoes your hope end at death?

You express certainty and hope but it's all founded on fantasy and lies.  Do you not value reality?  I do and so I find that it is better to have honest uncertainty, doubt, and awareness of the finality of death than to indulge in the delusions that one must necessarily embrace in order to be a true believer in Jesus and the empty promise of eternal life.

 

 

 

NoDeity,

I value reality, yes.  There are real lies.  I believe there is real truth, real peace and real eternal life for real spirits now housed in real but temporary tents. 

There is no real peace in pursuing any form of doing good works in exchange for eternal life or any form of a person's own idea of righteousness.  How would you ever know for certain you had "done enough"?  Plus, if your standards for yourself were even really high and you were cutting it with respect to your standards you know you could blow it at any time.  Christ delivers us from this swamp with creeping doubts and lurking dangers. 

In contrast with the doubt and questions of DIY righteousness, our faith stands solidly on the willing sacrifice of the Perfect Lamb of God - God's Sacrifice, the Body and Blood of Jesus, the Son of God.  We are confident that sacrifice is enough for us and all who believe in the Son of God.  We have inspired Scripture that says the atoning death of Jesus on the Cross pays the price in full.  We know by this plan conceived (as Scripture tells us) before the world was created, and executed as planned - that God loves us all, enemies included. 

The decision that faces all men is to either try to come up with your own form of righteousness which will both fail miserably and make you miserable - or accept the gift of God's Righteousness, which is a gift He gives to us when we believe in Jesus.  To believe in Jesus means real belief as shown in the life of the professing believer. 

You are admittedly having doubts and questions in your pursuit of the right road and reality.  Jesus offers the end of those doubts and questionings by putting all your confidence and faith and trust in Him, What He Said, What He Did.  And you will find if you do He is Alive in you as well, and that fellowship with Him is the abundant life indeed, eternal life, confident life - confidence in Him not in yourself.  A point of how this principle works on a bad day - we can learn like Paul that "when I am weak, then I am strong". 

In other words, the principle really kicks in when we see ourselves as weak, which is reality, because our confidence is not in ourselves but in Jesus.  If you're trying to peddle your way through life achieving what you see as great through your own greatness, when you weaken it falls apart and your house of cards crashes.  But we have peace and help in Christ even when we are weak. 

I have honest doubts too - I honestly doubt the abiity of a man to find his own way.  I doubt the delusions he is invested in thinking he is constructing something that he thinks will stand - though it has no foundation.  He is invested in empty promises he has promised himself and won't be able to deliver.  I'm trusting in One Who will be able to deliver what He has promised.  You see that as delusion, I see that as sound reality confirmed in my personal experience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not NoDeity but you've hit upon a major difference point Fonzie.

I don't do good things to earn eternal life or I'm afraid of hell. Christians are the one that operate under that threat.

I do good things because they're good things and they help those I do them for - I don't worry about having done enough because I'm not keeping score. I'm not worried about earning righteousness for the same reason.

I find it interesting that Christians talk about earning righteousness as a bad thing while they try to rack up brownie points with their God by obeying the commands of his that they like.

I don't worry about whether I'm on the right road. I'm on the road I'm on. I've been on your road - I may be there again. Did you choose the path of God or were you pressured into it by fear? If the latter, was it really your choice?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
NO OTHER NAME

jcgadfly wrote:

I'm not NoDeity but you've hit upon a major difference point Fonzie.

I don't do good things to earn eternal life or I'm afraid of hell. Christians are the one that operate under that threat.

I do good things because they're good things and they help those I do them for - I don't worry about having done enough because I'm not keeping score. I'm not worried about earning righteousness for the same reason.

I find it interesting that Christians talk about earning righteousness as a bad thing while they try to rack up brownie points with their God by obeying the commands of his that they like.

I don't worry about whether I'm on the right road. I'm on the road I'm on. I've been on your road - I may be there again. Did you choose the path of God or were you pressured into it by fear? If the latter, was it really your choice?


JcGadfly,

I personally am not operating under a fear of hell or a threat of earning eternal life - so I am like you in that respect JcGadfly.  I don't think most Christians do either, though I don't know most Christians.  Perfect love would cast out all fear - fear has to do with punishment.  As we try to comprehend how much God loved us even while we were enemies (and now we are His) fear and threat don't come to mind.  The "fear of the LORD" is a deep respect and reverence thing. 

Ok, well, I believe you on this.  You do good things, and not only that, you do them for great noble reasons, reasons of themselves, just because it's the thing to do, not concerned about being paid or rewarded.  The truth that God has revealed in Scripture is "there is salvation in no One else, for there is no other Name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved".  I am sharing the truth with you on this.  

So again the truth revealed by Scripture says that no matter how great your deeds or motive they won't represent enough to redeem or save you.  The parable that brings out this principle is the one about the marriage feast.  The wedding garments are passed out at the door by the master of the feast.  One guy refused the free wedding garment.  He was thrown out. 

There is only One Righteousness that is going to be acceptable (again revealed by Scripture several ways, several places) and that is the Gift of Jesus' Atoning Death on the Cross to be received by faith.  So your good works and good motives will be rejected in the end no matter how good you think they are.  They aren't acceptable.  God has turned all power and authority in heaven and on earth over to His Son, Who both sits at God's right hand and lives in His people, the church.

What you view as racking up brownie points is actually (supposed to be anyway) a response of love for the One Who saved us.  Did you say "buffet style" - picking out the things they like?  How would you know that?  Isn't that pretty insightful to know the purposes of another's heart? 

I took the road I'm on (my choice yes) at first as a way of escape from the lost state I was in, but it is comparable to the prodigal son coming home expecting to be a servant.  The dad wouldn't have any of it - he threw a party and took him back with great joy and respect.  So while I might have taken this road at first as a way of escape I have been treated as a loved son.  My motivation to respond to God's love has grown continually. 

Actually the good things you think you do may be more of a problem for you coming to Christ in faith than sin I don't know, but it could be.  If a man has a righteousness of his own he is trusting in what it says it there was no need for Christ to come and die and be raised from the dead so His blood could pay for the enmity (sin) between us and God.  That self righteousness is more in the way with some I think than sin.  It's anti-Christ to set up your own righteousness. 

 

 

 


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5094
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Yeah you, too, Fonz.

Fonzie wrote:

 

NoDeity, JcGadfly, Atheistextremist - and all,

HAPPY NEW YEAR to all of you! 

While we don't find a lot we agree on it's been pretty civil in my opinion.  At least I haven't been offended.  The best to all of you.

 

Fonzie

 

A safe and happy year to you and your family and friends.

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

I'm not NoDeity but you've hit upon a major difference point Fonzie.

I don't do good things to earn eternal life or I'm afraid of hell. Christians are the one that operate under that threat.

I do good things because they're good things and they help those I do them for - I don't worry about having done enough because I'm not keeping score. I'm not worried about earning righteousness for the same reason.

I find it interesting that Christians talk about earning righteousness as a bad thing while they try to rack up brownie points with their God by obeying the commands of his that they like.

I don't worry about whether I'm on the right road. I'm on the road I'm on. I've been on your road - I may be there again. Did you choose the path of God or were you pressured into it by fear? If the latter, was it really your choice?


JcGadfly,

I personally am not operating under a fear of hell or a threat of earning eternal life - so I am like you in that respect JcGadfly.  I don't think most Christians do either, though I don't know most Christians.  Perfect love would cast out all fear - fear has to do with punishment.  As we try to comprehend how much God loved us even while we were enemies (and now we are His) fear and threat don't come to mind.  The "fear of the LORD" is a deep respect and reverence thing. 

Ok, well, I believe you on this.  You do good things, and not only that, you do them for great noble reasons, reasons of themselves, just because it's the thing to do, not concerned about being paid or rewarded.  The truth that God has revealed in Scripture is "there is salvation in no One else, for there is no other Name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved".  I am sharing the truth with you on this.  

So again the truth revealed by Scripture says that no matter how great your deeds or motive they won't represent enough to redeem or save you.  The parable that brings out this principle is the one about the marriage feast.  The wedding garments are passed out at the door by the master of the feast.  One guy refused the free wedding garment.  He was thrown out. 

There is only One Righteousness that is going to be acceptable (again revealed by Scripture several ways, several places) and that is the Gift of Jesus' Atoning Death on the Cross to be received by faith.  So your good works and good motives will be rejected in the end no matter how good you think they are.  They aren't acceptable.  God has turned all power and authority in heaven and on earth over to His Son, Who both sits at God's right hand and lives in His people, the church.

What you view as racking up brownie points is actually (supposed to be anyway) a response of love for the One Who saved us.  Did you say "buffet style" - picking out the things they like?  How would you know that?  Isn't that pretty insightful to know the purposes of another's heart? 

I took the road I'm on (my choice yes) at first as a way of escape from the lost state I was in, but it is comparable to the prodigal son coming home expecting to be a servant.  The dad wouldn't have any of it - he threw a party and took him back with great joy and respect.  So while I might have taken this road at first as a way of escape I have been treated as a loved son.  My motivation to respond to God's love has grown continually. 

Actually the good things you think you do may be more of a problem for you coming to Christ in faith than sin I don't know, but it could be.  If a man has a righteousness of his own he is trusting in what it says it there was no need for Christ to come and die and be raised from the dead so His blood could pay for the enmity (sin) between us and God.  That self righteousness is more in the way with some I think than sin.  It's anti-Christ to set up your own righteousness. 

 

 

 

First off, happy new year back at you.

Now, I find it interesting when Christians claim to not do good works to gain God's favor. Especially while they go to church and tell God and everyone all the good things they've done - it's like they're asking if Daddy still loves them.

I may have you wrong in this. you may be one of those Christians that thinks "I've got mine - I know God loves me. After all, righteousness is not based on works. If people want my help, they can come and be Christians first. Then I'll help them but only then."

As for me, I help people if they need help and I can help. None of this "my own righteousness" stuff. What God thinks of me matters about as much as what I think of him, that is, not at all.

To believe in salvation, i would have to be motivated to believe there is something to be saved from. It's interesting that the subject of hell doesn't come up until the creation of Jesus - OT scripture doesn't mention it.

How do I know you pick out the commands of God you like? Do you follow the dietary laws as found in Leviticus? Do you stone disobedient children to death? I don't believe you do and that's a good thing. It also means that you are selective of God's law. Not a big deal - all Christians can and should do that because so many of those laws make no sense.

Are you backpedaling on the faith thing now? I have to come to Christ with my faith instead of him giving it to me? I'm glas yo finally figured that part out.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


NoDeity
Bronze Member
NoDeity's picture
Posts: 268
Joined: 2009-10-13
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie wrote:NoDeity

Fonzie wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Tell me what you are sure of:

Tell me what you are willing to put all your energy into - and life blood if necessary - and why.

Tell me what the meaning of life is - and the hope you have that goes beyond deathDoes your hope end at death?

You express certainty and hope but it's all founded on fantasy and lies.  Do you not value reality?  I do and so I find that it is better to have honest uncertainty, doubt, and awareness of the finality of death than to indulge in the delusions that one must necessarily embrace in order to be a true believer in Jesus and the empty promise of eternal life. 

 

NoDeity,

I value reality, yes.  There are real lies.  I believe there is real truth, real peace and real eternal life for real spirits now housed in real but temporary tents. 

There is no real peace in pursuing any form of doing good works in exchange for eternal life or any form of a person's own idea of righteousness.  How would you ever know for certain you had "done enough"?  Plus, if your standards for yourself were even really high and you were cutting it with respect to your standards you know you could blow it at any time.  Christ delivers us from this swamp with creeping doubts and lurking dangers.

Well, your discussion of the matter of works vs. faith is really not relevant to someone who does not value faith at all and who views the expectation of eternal life as futile exercise in fantasy.  (BTW, the way I resolved it when I was still a believer was that salvation is by faith but good works should follow as a consequence.)

You say you value reality but you decide what is and isn't real by faith, which is functionally equivalent to not caring at all about what is and isn't true.

 

Fonzie wrote:
The decision that faces all men is to either try to come up with your own form of righteousness which will both fail miserably and make you miserable - or accept the gift of God's Righteousness, which is a gift He gives to us when we believe in Jesus.  To believe in Jesus means real belief as shown in the life of the professing believer.

[shrug]  I utterly reject your Jesus and I'm neither miserable nor am I failing miserably.  If anything, my life improved considerably after I discarded faith.

 

Fonzie wrote:
You are admittedly having doubts and questions in your pursuit of the right road and reality.

Yes, uncertainty is a normal and healthy part of life.

 

Fonzie wrote:
Jesus offers the end of those doubts and questionings by putting all your confidence and faith and trust in Him, What He Said, What He Did.

As I've been trying to explain to you, your religious beliefs can only offer you a false sense of security.  In my opinion, it is neither good nor healthy to live in fantasy, which is what you are doing.

Please understand that I am not ignorant about what Christianity is all about.  I really put myself into it for many years, investing my heart and my hope in faith and worship. 

[python_quote] I got better. [/python_quote]

 

Fonzie wrote:
I have honest doubts too - I honestly doubt the abiity of a man to find his own way.  I doubt the delusions he is invested in thinking he is constructing something that he thinks will stand - though it has no foundation.

If his thinking is founded in science and reason, then it is founded on something that has been repeatedly demonstrated to be the most effective means of preserving and enhancing human life.

 

Fonzie wrote:
He is invested in empty promises he has promised himself and won't be able to deliver.  I'm trusting in One Who will be able to deliver what He has promised.  You see that as delusion, I see that as sound reality confirmed in my personal experience.

You necessarily have to appeal to untestable personal experience because you have no other foundation for your beliefs.

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
YOUR FAITH FANTASY AND MINE

NoDeity wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Tell me what you are sure of:

Tell me what you are willing to put all your energy into - and life blood if necessary - and why.

Tell me what the meaning of life is - and the hope you have that goes beyond deathDoes your hope end at death?

You express certainty and hope but it's all founded on fantasy and lies.  Do you not value reality?  I do and so I find that it is better to have honest uncertainty, doubt, and awareness of the finality of death than to indulge in the delusions that one must necessarily embrace in order to be a true believer in Jesus and the empty promise of eternal life. 

 

NoDeity,

I value reality, yes.  There are real lies.  I believe there is real truth, real peace and real eternal life for real spirits now housed in real but temporary tents. 

There is no real peace in pursuing any form of doing good works in exchange for eternal life or any form of a person's own idea of righteousness.  How would you ever know for certain you had "done enough"?  Plus, if your standards for yourself were even really high and you were cutting it with respect to your standards you know you could blow it at any time.  Christ delivers us from this swamp with creeping doubts and lurking dangers.

Well, your discussion of the matter of works vs. faith is really not relevant to someone who does not value faith at all and who views the expectation of eternal life as futile exercise in fantasy.  (BTW, the way I resolved it when I was still a believer was that salvation is by faith but good works should follow as a consequence.)

You say you value reality but you decide what is and isn't real by faith, which is functionally equivalent to not caring at all about what is and isn't true.

 

Fonzie wrote:
The decision that faces all men is to either try to come up with your own form of righteousness which will both fail miserably and make you miserable - or accept the gift of God's Righteousness, which is a gift He gives to us when we believe in Jesus.  To believe in Jesus means real belief as shown in the life of the professing believer.

[shrug]  I utterly reject your Jesus and I'm neither miserable nor am I failing miserably.  If anything, my life improved considerably after I discarded faith.

 

Fonzie wrote:
You are admittedly having doubts and questions in your pursuit of the right road and reality.

Yes, uncertainty is a normal and healthy part of life.

 

Fonzie wrote:
Jesus offers the end of those doubts and questionings by putting all your confidence and faith and trust in Him, What He Said, What He Did.

As I've been trying to explain to you, your religious beliefs can only offer you a false sense of security.  In my opinion, it is neither good nor healthy to live in fantasy, which is what you are doing.

Please understand that I am not ignorant about what Christianity is all about.  I really put myself into it for many years, investing my heart and my hope in faith and worship. 

[python_quote] I got better. [/python_quote]

 

Fonzie wrote:
I have honest doubts too - I honestly doubt the abiity of a man to find his own way.  I doubt the delusions he is invested in thinking he is constructing something that he thinks will stand - though it has no foundation.

If his thinking is founded in science and reason, then it is founded on something that has been repeatedly demonstrated to be the most effective means of preserving and enhancing human life.

 

Fonzie wrote:
He is invested in empty promises he has promised himself and won't be able to deliver.  I'm trusting in One Who will be able to deliver what He has promised.  You see that as delusion, I see that as sound reality confirmed in my personal experience.

You necessarily have to appeal to untestable personal experience because you have no other foundation for your beliefs.

 

 

NoDeity,

 

You have mastered the quote function obviously Eye-wink 

I wonder what Christian group you were with.  There was "another gospel" that swept through here that had a militant heirachy, a pyramid setup that offered the promise of great growth if we would just twist enough Scripture to go along with it.  A few were caught up by it for a while at least.  It was a bad experience for them.  It turned out that the two at the top of that pyramid were screwed up or down whichever. 

But anyway, I can look back and say the "wedding garment" didn't always "feel right" with me, and it related to wrong turns I made, the equivalent of being a "spiritual teenager", sorting things out, dealing with wrong doctrine in myself and others - all happening in imperfect people and situations.  Christ has brought me through it all now and to a level place where it's true I have to maintain, armor up, gather manna, be on guard and aware and ready to fight the powers and principalities, the enemy, the old Devil and his demons. 

I would compare it to owning and driving a car.  It has to be maintained, and it's not always the same thing.  And while driving though there are serious dangers I don't go down the road in fear.  There's regular gas-ups and oil-check/change.  But there is good and bad driving too and good practice by design. 

You seem to illustrate how faith works in the way you handle your science.  You are willing to overlook science's mistakes and suspend judgment when science has made a wacky invention to restore hair, etc.  Faith works well when it comes to communication too - you wouldn't be ready to turn on me and be my worst enemy by a misunderstood word - you would bridge that with basic faith in me, or not.

But I think you are exercising fantasy in a similar way you referred to me - with your science.  I described how my faith in Christ has gone through several wrong turns and dead ends - but my faith bridged over that like you have with your science and reason.  But when it comes to pearl trading I am confident without doubt that I have the best pearl of all - Jesus.  You would do well to trade up.  Your science and reason fantasy are giving you a false hope of security.  You know the things you see and touch won't be there long.  The unseen spiritual things are eternal.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Di66en6ion
Di66en6ion's picture
Posts: 106
Joined: 2009-01-03
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie

Fonzie wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Fonzie. You offer no proofs just oceans of dogma with a pious undercurrent of adhoms. It's simply vile stuff.

 

 

 

 

Atheistetremist,

What I am offering is out in the open and transparent and a total package in the gospel.  What you are doing is simply shooting from behind trees.  Any kid can kill a bird with a bb gun.  But what have you produced?  What have you brought out as the way to go?  What is your direction and what is your inspiration?  What is your confidence in and why?  Is your god above you, below you, or just you?  What is your purpose in life?  What is the meaning of life and death - or do you say it has no meaning?  Is this world having contractions that are heading toward birth?  If so, what is it heading toward - according to you or your field lights.  You have presented nothing to criticize it's true - is it because you have nothing? 

What I am saying is: walking by faith in Jesus works - and in every way.  It has direction; the right direction.  It propels ahead and solves the past, it is in tune to the present living Christ.  The personal experience is in harmony with that described in the Bible by others who experienced the same joys.  I believe in Jesus and it works for me.  What works for you?  How and why does it work?  Describe why it motivates you and what it's heading toward.  What is it that you can put your whole life energy into and why?  And if I am offering you a better way, wouldn't it be wise to accept it? 

 

 

"when the wicked dies, his hope perishes, and the expectation of the godless comes to nought."  (God)

 

 

An excerpt from Discover magazine, Sept 09. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
PRIDE 

Early theologians saw pride as the fundamental sin-the "queen of them all," according to Pope Gregory the Great, who codified the list of the seven deadly sins in the sixth century. Indeed, psychologists say that arrogance comes naturally in Western society. Most of us perceive ourselves as slightly smarter, funnier, more talented, and better-looking than average. These rose-colored glasses are apparently important to mental health, the psychological immune system that protects us from despair. "Those who see themselves as they truly are - not so funny, a bad driver, overweight - have a greater chance of being diagnosed with clinical depression,” says Julian Paul Keenan, director of the cognitive neuro-imaging laboratory and professor of psychology at Montclair State University in New Jersey. 

For most of us, it takes less mental energy to pull ourselves up than to think critically about our own abilities. In one recent neuro-imaging study by Hidehiko Takahashi of the National Institute of Radiological Sciences in Japan, volunteers who imagined themselves winning a prize or trouncing an opponent showed less activation in brain regions associated with introspection and self-conscious thought than people induced to feel negative emotions such as embarrassment. We accept positive feedback about ourselves readily, Takahashi says: "Compared with guilt or embarrassment, pride might be processed more automatically." 

Pride gets its swagger from the self-related processing of the mPFC, which Keenan calls "a very interesting area of the brain, involved in all these wonderful human characteristics, from planning to abstract thinking to self-awareness." Using transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS), in which a magnetic field applied to the scalp temporarily scrambles the signal in small areas of the brain, he was able to briefly shut off the mPFC in volunteers. With TMS switched on, his subjects' normal, healthy arrogance melted away. "They saw themselves as they really were, without glossing over negative characteristics," he says. 

Righteous humility has traditionally been depicted as the virtue that opposes pride, but the work of Keenan and others calls that into question. He is using TMS to disrupt deliberate self-depreciation-the type of unctuous, ingratiating behavior that seems humble but is actually arrogance in disguise. Patterns of brain activation during self-depreciation are fundamentally the same as those during self-deceptive pride, Keenan is finding. Both are forms of one-upmanship. "They're in the same location and seem to serve the same purpose: putting oneself ahead in society, " he says. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 

I so wish I could use this machine on a vast amount of the population.


NoDeity
Bronze Member
NoDeity's picture
Posts: 268
Joined: 2009-10-13
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie wrote:But I think you

Fonzie wrote:
But I think you are exercising fantasy in a similar way you referred to me - with your science.  I described how my faith in Christ has gone through several wrong turns and dead ends - but my faith bridged over that like you have with your science and reason.  But when it comes to pearl trading I am confident without doubt that I have the best pearl of all - Jesus.  You would do well to trade up. 

Do you understand the fundamental differences, though?  Logic is not subject to arbitrary or personal interpretations -- a line of reasoning either is or is not logical.  Scientific conclusions are subject to examination -- testing and re-testing and rational analysis.  Those are the things that have made science a success.

 

Fonzie wrote:
Your science and reason fantasy are giving you a false hope of security.

False hope of security?  I don't know what you mean by that -- I understand that life is fragile and fleeting.

 

Fonzie wrote:
The unseen spiritual things are eternal. 

That's the thing about these sorts of fantasies: that they are untestable and uncheckable lends itself to such absurd claims.

 

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
Di66en6ion wrote:Fonzie

Di66en6ion wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Fonzie. You offer no proofs just oceans of dogma with a pious undercurrent of adhoms. It's simply vile stuff.

 

 

 

 

Atheistetremist,

What I am offering is out in the open and transparent and a total package in the gospel.  What you are doing is simply shooting from behind trees.  Any kid can kill a bird with a bb gun.  But what have you produced?  What have you brought out as the way to go?  What is your direction and what is your inspiration?  What is your confidence in and why?  Is your god above you, below you, or just you?  What is your purpose in life?  What is the meaning of life and death - or do you say it has no meaning?  Is this world having contractions that are heading toward birth?  If so, what is it heading toward - according to you or your field lights.  You have presented nothing to criticize it's true - is it because you have nothing? 

What I am saying is: walking by faith in Jesus works - and in every way.  It has direction; the right direction.  It propels ahead and solves the past, it is in tune to the present living Christ.  The personal experience is in harmony with that described in the Bible by others who experienced the same joys.  I believe in Jesus and it works for me.  What works for you?  How and why does it work?  Describe why it motivates you and what it's heading toward.  What is it that you can put your whole life energy into and why?  And if I am offering you a better way, wouldn't it be wise to accept it? 

 

 

"when the wicked dies, his hope perishes, and the expectation of the godless comes to nought."  (God)

 

 

An excerpt from Discover magazine, Sept 09. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
PRIDE 

Early theologians saw pride as the fundamental sin-the "queen of them all," according to Pope Gregory the Great, who codified the list of the seven deadly sins in the sixth century. Indeed, psychologists say that arrogance comes naturally in Western society. Most of us perceive ourselves as slightly smarter, funnier, more talented, and better-looking than average. These rose-colored glasses are apparently important to mental health, the psychological immune system that protects us from despair. "Those who see themselves as they truly are - not so funny, a bad driver, overweight - have a greater chance of being diagnosed with clinical depression,” says Julian Paul Keenan, director of the cognitive neuro-imaging laboratory and professor of psychology at Montclair State University in New Jersey. 

For most of us, it takes less mental energy to pull ourselves up than to think critically about our own abilities. In one recent neuro-imaging study by Hidehiko Takahashi of the National Institute of Radiological Sciences in Japan, volunteers who imagined themselves winning a prize or trouncing an opponent showed less activation in brain regions associated with introspection and self-conscious thought than people induced to feel negative emotions such as embarrassment. We accept positive feedback about ourselves readily, Takahashi says: "Compared with guilt or embarrassment, pride might be processed more automatically." 

Pride gets its swagger from the self-related processing of the mPFC, which Keenan calls "a very interesting area of the brain, involved in all these wonderful human characteristics, from planning to abstract thinking to self-awareness." Using transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS), in which a magnetic field applied to the scalp temporarily scrambles the signal in small areas of the brain, he was able to briefly shut off the mPFC in volunteers. With TMS switched on, his subjects' normal, healthy arrogance melted away. "They saw themselves as they really were, without glossing over negative characteristics," he says. 

Righteous humility has traditionally been depicted as the virtue that opposes pride, but the work of Keenan and others calls that into question. He is using TMS to disrupt deliberate self-depreciation-the type of unctuous, ingratiating behavior that seems humble but is actually arrogance in disguise. Patterns of brain activation during self-depreciation are fundamentally the same as those during self-deceptive pride, Keenan is finding. Both are forms of one-upmanship. "They're in the same location and seem to serve the same purpose: putting oneself ahead in society, " he says. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 

I so wish I could use this machine on a vast amount of the population.


Di66en6ion,

I'm not sure if I'm understanding this.  This article claims this machine switches off pride such that a man would see things as they are? 

 

 

 


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
YOU SAY YES/ I SAY NO/ YOU SAY WHY/ I SAY I KNOW - YOU DISAGREE

jcgadfly wrote:

First off, happy new year back at you.

Now, I find it interesting when Christians claim to not do good works to gain God's favor. Especially while they go to church and tell God and everyone all the good things they've done - it's like they're asking if Daddy still loves them.

I may have you wrong in this. you may be one of those Christians that thinks "I've got mine - I know God loves me. After all, righteousness is not based on works. If people want my help, they can come and be Christians first. Then I'll help them but only then."

As for me, I help people if they need help and I can help. None of this "my own righteousness" stuff. What God thinks of me matters about as much as what I think of him, that is, not at all.

To believe in salvation, i would have to be motivated to believe there is something to be saved from. It's interesting that the subject of hell doesn't come up until the creation of Jesus - OT scripture doesn't mention it.

How do I know you pick out the commands of God you like? Do you follow the dietary laws as found in Leviticus? Do you stone disobedient children to death? I don't believe you do and that's a good thing. It also means that you are selective of God's law. Not a big deal - all Christians can and should do that because so many of those laws make no sense.

Are you backpedaling on the faith thing now? I have to come to Christ with my faith instead of him giving it to me? I'm glas yo finally figured that part out.

 

JcGadfly,

I may be wrong but I don't think I could tell you the time of day (even if it was noon) and you accept it.  But you would make latitude for fellow atheists. 

We've established you are doing great things for great reasons.  I am just telling you the truth that whatever it is you do for whatever reason it won't be acceptable in the end - if you accept the Scriptures (which we've also established you don't).  Also we've established you don't need a Physician because you're not sick.  You don't need God, and you don't need least of all me.  We're just talking about it all, just shooting the created breeze.  

I "go to church" as you say to worship Christ in fellowship with others who are in Christ.  I'm not going to find out if God still loves me - that's established just like it's established that you don't think you want any part of it all.

Salvation is by grace in Christ and Him Crucified, the Lamb of God sacrificed for all the sins of all men of all time who accept it through faith  (I know you know I told you) and with no works of the law mixed in.  Paul was really fighting that wrong turn in the book of Galatians down to the finest point.  Works of the law include the dietary you mentioned (Jesus declared all foods clean) and stoning (Law of Moses was fulfilled in Jesus the only One Who kept it perfectly, the Law didn't have anything on Him, He didn't have to die - but He died willingly for us - the death of Death.  When Death sucked the life out of Jesus it was Death's own Death and it also sealed Satan's doom - and the timer is ticking. 

I'm not planning on going to Hell.  I have my doubts and questions put to rest in Christ and His Death on the Cross.  My faith and trust is in that, not in my going to church, good works, knowing how to answer all your questions, being able to make you understand when you don't want to, making nice,nice in such a way that you are pleased, justifying myself to you, etc.  I have perfect peace in Christ well lit with the indwelling Holy Spirit's glow. 

Next you say I'm proud.  I think you react to the confidence that is possible when Christ takes the iniquity away between a man and God.  I am confident.  God has brought me near.  I have been born again, born into Christ, given the Gift of the Holy Spirit, God has written His law on my heart (Scripture perspective not mine), I know the Shepherd's voice.  I am at peace and ready for war at the same time (not war with you JcGadfly - war with my old self, war with the Devil and his water boys - you're not one are you?)

 

 

 

 

 

 


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie wrote:Di66en6ion

Fonzie wrote:

Di66en6ion wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Fonzie. You offer no proofs just oceans of dogma with a pious undercurrent of adhoms. It's simply vile stuff.

 

 

 

 

Atheistetremist,

What I am offering is out in the open and transparent and a total package in the gospel.  What you are doing is simply shooting from behind trees.  Any kid can kill a bird with a bb gun.  But what have you produced?  What have you brought out as the way to go?  What is your direction and what is your inspiration?  What is your confidence in and why?  Is your god above you, below you, or just you?  What is your purpose in life?  What is the meaning of life and death - or do you say it has no meaning?  Is this world having contractions that are heading toward birth?  If so, what is it heading toward - according to you or your field lights.  You have presented nothing to criticize it's true - is it because you have nothing? 

What I am saying is: walking by faith in Jesus works - and in every way.  It has direction; the right direction.  It propels ahead and solves the past, it is in tune to the present living Christ.  The personal experience is in harmony with that described in the Bible by others who experienced the same joys.  I believe in Jesus and it works for me.  What works for you?  How and why does it work?  Describe why it motivates you and what it's heading toward.  What is it that you can put your whole life energy into and why?  And if I am offering you a better way, wouldn't it be wise to accept it? 

 

 

"when the wicked dies, his hope perishes, and the expectation of the godless comes to nought."  (God)

 

 

An excerpt from Discover magazine, Sept 09. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
PRIDE 

Early theologians saw pride as the fundamental sin-the "queen of them all," according to Pope Gregory the Great, who codified the list of the seven deadly sins in the sixth century. Indeed, psychologists say that arrogance comes naturally in Western society. Most of us perceive ourselves as slightly smarter, funnier, more talented, and better-looking than average. These rose-colored glasses are apparently important to mental health, the psychological immune system that protects us from despair. "Those who see themselves as they truly are - not so funny, a bad driver, overweight - have a greater chance of being diagnosed with clinical depression,” says Julian Paul Keenan, director of the cognitive neuro-imaging laboratory and professor of psychology at Montclair State University in New Jersey. 

For most of us, it takes less mental energy to pull ourselves up than to think critically about our own abilities. In one recent neuro-imaging study by Hidehiko Takahashi of the National Institute of Radiological Sciences in Japan, volunteers who imagined themselves winning a prize or trouncing an opponent showed less activation in brain regions associated with introspection and self-conscious thought than people induced to feel negative emotions such as embarrassment. We accept positive feedback about ourselves readily, Takahashi says: "Compared with guilt or embarrassment, pride might be processed more automatically." 

Pride gets its swagger from the self-related processing of the mPFC, which Keenan calls "a very interesting area of the brain, involved in all these wonderful human characteristics, from planning to abstract thinking to self-awareness." Using transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS), in which a magnetic field applied to the scalp temporarily scrambles the signal in small areas of the brain, he was able to briefly shut off the mPFC in volunteers. With TMS switched on, his subjects' normal, healthy arrogance melted away. "They saw themselves as they really were, without glossing over negative characteristics," he says. 

Righteous humility has traditionally been depicted as the virtue that opposes pride, but the work of Keenan and others calls that into question. He is using TMS to disrupt deliberate self-depreciation-the type of unctuous, ingratiating behavior that seems humble but is actually arrogance in disguise. Patterns of brain activation during self-depreciation are fundamentally the same as those during self-deceptive pride, Keenan is finding. Both are forms of one-upmanship. "They're in the same location and seem to serve the same purpose: putting oneself ahead in society, " he says. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 

I so wish I could use this machine on a vast amount of the population.


Di66en6ion,

I'm not sure if I'm understanding this.  This article claims this machine switches off pride such that a man would see things as they are? 

 

 

 

The article claims that righteous humility "I'm nothing - God is all" comes from the same area of the brain as arrogance.

When you run around telling everyone how humble you are and how lowly you are before God, you are in fact bragging to any who will listen.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5094
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
This is very interesting

Di66en6ion wrote:

 

An excerpt from Discover magazine, Sept 09. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
PRIDE 

Early theologians saw pride as the fundamental sin-the "queen of them all," according to Pope Gregory the Great, who codified the list of the seven deadly sins in the sixth century. Indeed, psychologists say that arrogance comes naturally in Western society. Most of us perceive ourselves as slightly smarter, funnier, more talented, and better-looking than average. These rose-colored glasses are apparently important to mental health, the psychological immune system that protects us from despair. "Those who see themselves as they truly are - not so funny, a bad driver, overweight - have a greater chance of being diagnosed with clinical depression,” says Julian Paul Keenan, director of the cognitive neuro-imaging laboratory and professor of psychology at Montclair State University in New Jersey. 

For most of us, it takes less mental energy to pull ourselves up than to think critically about our own abilities. In one recent neuro-imaging study by Hidehiko Takahashi of the National Institute of Radiological Sciences in Japan, volunteers who imagined themselves winning a prize or trouncing an opponent showed less activation in brain regions associated with introspection and self-conscious thought than people induced to feel negative emotions such as embarrassment. We accept positive feedback about ourselves readily, Takahashi says: "Compared with guilt or embarrassment, pride might be processed more automatically." 

Pride gets its swagger from the self-related processing of the mPFC, which Keenan calls "a very interesting area of the brain, involved in all these wonderful human characteristics, from planning to abstract thinking to self-awareness." Using transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS), in which a magnetic field applied to the scalp temporarily scrambles the signal in small areas of the brain, he was able to briefly shut off the mPFC in volunteers. With TMS switched on, his subjects' normal, healthy arrogance melted away. "They saw themselves as they really were, without glossing over negative characteristics," he says. 

Righteous humility has traditionally been depicted as the virtue that opposes pride, but the work of Keenan and others calls that into question. He is using TMS to disrupt deliberate self-depreciation-the type of unctuous, ingratiating behavior that seems humble but is actually arrogance in disguise. Patterns of brain activation during self-depreciation are fundamentally the same as those during self-deceptive pride, Keenan is finding. Both are forms of one-upmanship. "They're in the same location and seem to serve the same purpose: putting oneself ahead in society, " he says. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 

As I've got older and my self honesty has increased I've become increasingly aware of this propensity to self-deceptive pride in myself and have struggled to establish what was driving it. I decided it was in fact some sort of self serving self pity and this research would suggest that I might have been on the right track. And I agree that really being honest about yourself and your flaws is a recipe for real despair. I haven't managed to be self-honest and happy at the same time...

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

First off, happy new year back at you.

Now, I find it interesting when Christians claim to not do good works to gain God's favor. Especially while they go to church and tell God and everyone all the good things they've done - it's like they're asking if Daddy still loves them.

I may have you wrong in this. you may be one of those Christians that thinks "I've got mine - I know God loves me. After all, righteousness is not based on works. If people want my help, they can come and be Christians first. Then I'll help them but only then."

As for me, I help people if they need help and I can help. None of this "my own righteousness" stuff. What God thinks of me matters about as much as what I think of him, that is, not at all.

To believe in salvation, i would have to be motivated to believe there is something to be saved from. It's interesting that the subject of hell doesn't come up until the creation of Jesus - OT scripture doesn't mention it.

How do I know you pick out the commands of God you like? Do you follow the dietary laws as found in Leviticus? Do you stone disobedient children to death? I don't believe you do and that's a good thing. It also means that you are selective of God's law. Not a big deal - all Christians can and should do that because so many of those laws make no sense.

Are you backpedaling on the faith thing now? I have to come to Christ with my faith instead of him giving it to me? I'm glas yo finally figured that part out.

 

JcGadfly,

I may be wrong but I don't think I could tell you the time of day (even if it was noon) and you accept it.  But you would make latitude for fellow atheists. 

We've established you are doing great things for great reasons.  I am just telling you the truth that whatever it is you do for whatever reason it won't be acceptable in the end - if you accept the Scriptures (which we've also established you don't).  Also we've established you don't need a Physician because you're not sick.  You don't need God, and you don't need least of all me.  We're just talking about it all, just shooting the created breeze.  

I "go to church" as you say to worship Christ in fellowship with others who are in Christ.  I'm not going to find out if God still loves me - that's established just like it's established that you don't think you want any part of it all.

Salvation is by grace in Christ and Him Crucified, the Lamb of God sacrificed for all the sins of all men of all time who accept it through faith  (I know you know I told you) and with no works of the law mixed in.  Paul was really fighting that wrong turn in the book of Galatians down to the finest point.  Works of the law include the dietary you mentioned (Jesus declared all foods clean) and stoning (Law of Moses was fulfilled in Jesus the only One Who kept it perfectly, the Law didn't have anything on Him, He didn't have to die - but He died willingly for us - the death of Death.  When Death sucked the life out of Jesus it was Death's own Death and it also sealed Satan's doom - and the timer is ticking. 

I'm not planning on going to Hell.  I have my doubts and questions put to rest in Christ and His Death on the Cross.  My faith and trust is in that, not in my going to church, good works, knowing how to answer all your questions, being able to make you understand when you don't want to, making nice,nice in such a way that you are pleased, justifying myself to you, etc.  I have perfect peace in Christ well lit with the indwelling Holy Spirit's glow. 

Next you say I'm proud.  I think you react to the confidence that is possible when Christ takes the iniquity away between a man and God.  I am confident.  God has brought me near.  I have been born again, born into Christ, given the Gift of the Holy Spirit, God has written His law on my heart (Scripture perspective not mine), I know the Shepherd's voice.  I am at peace and ready for war at the same time (not war with you JcGadfly - war with my old self, war with the Devil and his water boys - you're not one are you?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are wrong - tell me the time and show me your watch, no sweat. Tell me that God told you that it was noon and I'm going to pull my watch and check. Nothing personal - I just don't trust magic for answers.

I'm telling you that the only thing we are sure of is that we will both end. I hope that people will remember me for what good I've done but it's cool if they don't. You hope that there is an afterlife where the God you believed in kept score of your deeds so you can have a reward. If believing is all that you need to do, why do James and Jesus spend so much time talking of works? Anyone can talk the talk - where's your walk? It's not showing up here.

I'm glad you have such confidence in your belief that you've jumped through all the right hoops. In the end, it's still guessing that you have the right version of God. You claim knowledge of what you can't know. If you knew it you wouldn't need faith.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
Di66en6ion wrote:The article


Di66en6ion wrote:


The article claims that righteous humility "I'm nothing - God is all" comes from the same area of the brain as arrogance.

When you run around telling everyone how humble you are and how lowly you are before God, you are in fact bragging to any who will listen.

 

Di66en6ion,

Ok, thanks for explaining that.  I didn't understand how you were applying it.  It's possible that a person (me, anybody) could be proud and not see it true, I accept that possibility.  And I would define humility as seeing things as they really are - would you agree?  I do want to see things as they really are and I also have learned I can't always have confidence in my perception of things, so I'm open to consider other opinions. 

I don't have faith a machine can do what this describes - which comes from my general lack of faith in science and pdocs. 

You I don't know at all.  You have come on the scene and have a strong impression I am a closet proud braggart, which could be true I guess.  If so I would consider you my friend for pointing it out.  I think you are mistaking confidence for pride.  I'm confident in Christ.  I'm running around saying that. 

 

 


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
THE TIME IS NOW

jcgadfly wrote:

You are wrong - tell me the time and show me your watch, no sweat. Tell me that God told you that it was noon and I'm going to pull my watch and check. Nothing personal - I just don't trust magic for answers.

I'm telling you that the only thing we are sure of is that we will both end. I hope that people will remember me for what good I've done but it's cool if they don't. You hope that there is an afterlife where the God you believed in kept score of your deeds so you can have a reward. If believing is all that you need to do, why do James and Jesus spend so much time talking of works? Anyone can talk the talk - where's your walk? It's not showing up here.

I'm glad you have such confidence in your belief that you've jumped through all the right hoops. In the end, it's still guessing that you have the right version of God. You claim knowledge of what you can't know. If you knew it you wouldn't need faith.


JcGadfly,

You would check the watch concerning the time and I check the Scriptures to verify spiritual statements and principles - that's what I have total faith and confidence in. 

You say you don't trust "magic".  I take your use of that word to mean what you think is "slight of hand" - that which would wow those not in the know.  We are both dealing with and using a lot of things we don't understand however; is gravity a "pull" or a "push".  This morning I walked in -4 deg F drinking coffee.  I was thinking about what a range this little tent has with temperature.  I have roofed at - 20 wind chill and also +103 (on a black roof in a valley).  I was drinking coffee I don't have the slightest idea as to how it grows or how I digest it.  I look up and see the moon a few thousand miles away - how far can the eye see?  I'm multi-tasking, walking (on ice), seeing, hearing, drinking, thinking about giving you the time and you checking your watch.

And today is my 42 anniversary JcGadfly.  Pretty good for never going on a date, just writing almost every day for 6 mo.  She lived in Tuscon.  I went out for Xmas '68 and we were married after church on Wednesday night Jan 3.  Then we drove the 36 hour drive home.  I prayed for a Christian wife and I got one. 

You are right I believe in things I can't see with my physical eye or prove to unwilling you.  I do see these things with the eye of faith however.  Faith is compared to the highest sense, sight, which is interesting.  What is faster than sight?  You could all of a sudden see the truth of the gospel for instance - it could happen.  With the eye of faith I see beyond death - over the horizon, like a ship over 15 miles out.  It's there, you just can't see it over the horizon.  I see beyond death with the eye of faith, yes.  And I see unseen eternal things today here - the presence of Christ, joy, security, clear conscience thanks to Christ, peace, a lighted battlefield, a real hope, the lamp is lit. 

As far as works, you are right I haven't done much in the way of works.  I've tried to help some people - maybe I have, maybe I haven't.  I've tried from my perspective to help you JcGadfly.  From your perspective I've tried to lead you astray to a gospel and a Christ you don't think exist, but I have tried and maybe failed, maybe not.  Who knows but God.  But you're right I don't have great works to have faith in. 

I am putting all the weight of my confidence and hope, trust, expectation, in Christ Who lives within me, and I strive to walk with, with all the energy which He inspires within me.  As for the faith you mentioned, where it comes from, who gave it.  It's another one of those things in life I'm using I don't understand.  When I came to Christ I sure didn't understand He gave me the faith to see the truth of the gospel.  But studying it now I believe that's true - that God and Christ do it all.  It's all to Their glory. 


"Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain?  The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and His Anointed, saying, 'Let us burst their bonds asunder, and cast their cords from us.'  He Who sits in the heavens laughs; the LORD has them in derision.  Then He will speak to them in His wrath, and terrify them in His fury, saying, 'I have set My King on Zion, My holy hill.'"   (God)

 

 

 

 


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

You are wrong - tell me the time and show me your watch, no sweat. Tell me that God told you that it was noon and I'm going to pull my watch and check. Nothing personal - I just don't trust magic for answers.

I'm telling you that the only thing we are sure of is that we will both end. I hope that people will remember me for what good I've done but it's cool if they don't. You hope that there is an afterlife where the God you believed in kept score of your deeds so you can have a reward. If believing is all that you need to do, why do James and Jesus spend so much time talking of works? Anyone can talk the talk - where's your walk? It's not showing up here.

I'm glad you have such confidence in your belief that you've jumped through all the right hoops. In the end, it's still guessing that you have the right version of God. You claim knowledge of what you can't know. If you knew it you wouldn't need faith.


JcGadfly,

You would check the watch concerning the time and I check the Scriptures to verify spiritual statements and principles - that's what I have total faith and confidence in. 

You say you don't trust "magic".  I take your use of that word to mean what you think is "slight of hand" - that which would wow those not in the know.  We are both dealing with and using a lot of things we don't understand however; is gravity a "pull" or a "push".  This morning I walked in -4 deg F drinking coffee.  I was thinking about what a range this little tent has with temperature.  I have roofed at - 20 wind chill and also +103 (on a black roof in a valley).  I was drinking coffee I don't have the slightest idea as to how it grows or how I digest it.  I look up and see the moon a few thousand miles away - how far can the eye see?  I'm multi-tasking, walking (on ice), seeing, hearing, drinking, thinking about giving you the time and you checking your watch.

And today is my 42 anniversary JcGadfly.  Pretty good for never going on a date, just writing almost every day for 6 mo.  She lived in Tuscon.  I went out for Xmas '68 and we were married after church on Wednesday night Jan 3.  Then we drove the 36 hour drive home.  I prayed for a Christian wife and I got one. 

You are right I believe in things I can't see with my physical eye or prove to unwilling you.  I do see these things with the eye of faith however.  Faith is compared to the highest sense, sight, which is interesting.  What is faster than sight?  You could all of a sudden see the truth of the gospel for instance - it could happen.  With the eye of faith I see beyond death - over the horizon, like a ship over 15 miles out.  It's there, you just can't see it over the horizon.  I see beyond death with the eye of faith, yes.  And I see unseen eternal things today here - the presence of Christ, joy, security, clear conscience thanks to Christ, peace, a lighted battlefield, a real hope, the lamp is lit. 

As far as works, you are right I haven't done much in the way of works.  I've tried to help some people - maybe I have, maybe I haven't.  I've tried from my perspective to help you JcGadfly.  From your perspective I've tried to lead you astray to a gospel and a Christ you don't think exist, but I have tried and maybe failed, maybe not.  Who knows but God.  But you're right I don't have great works to have faith in. 

I am putting all the weight of my confidence and hope, trust, expectation, in Christ Who lives within me, and I strive to walk with, with all the energy which He inspires within me.  As for the faith you mentioned, where it comes from, who gave it.  It's another one of those things in life I'm using I don't understand.  When I came to Christ I sure didn't understand He gave me the faith to see the truth of the gospel.  But studying it now I believe that's true - that God and Christ do it all.  It's all to Their glory. 


"Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain?  The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and His Anointed, saying, 'Let us burst their bonds asunder, and cast their cords from us.'  He Who sits in the heavens laughs; the LORD has them in derision.  Then He will speak to them in His wrath, and terrify them in His fury, saying, 'I have set My King on Zion, My holy hill.'"   (God)

 

 

 

 

I don't think you see what you wrote in the first sentence - you use the scriptures to validate your own assumptions. If you want to do something and you search the scriptures finding one that says you can then claim "God told you to do it". If you can't, well, you can always claim "the Bible was written by men and they didn't expect the things we have now"

As for us using things we don't understand, I agree. However, so many of the things you use as examples can be measured and documented that I can't really compare them to the being that you claim it is impossible to know anything about (and consider that a virtue).

congrats on 42 yrs - My wife and I celebrated our 11th last year.

I know, you walk by faith and not by sight. Unfortunately, that also can mean you ignore what's in front of you because you're focused on the "substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen". AKA, being too heavenly minded to be of earthly good".

I appreciate your attempts to help me and I believe the motives are sincere. I must ask if you have faith and you believe that is all you need (as you seem to) why bother trying at all? You're already set. Why be concerned about this command of Christ's when you ignore so many others?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
TEMPUS DOES FUGEST

jcgadfly wrote:

I don't think you see what you wrote in the first sentence - you use the scriptures to validate your own assumptions. If you want to do something and you search the scriptures finding one that says you can then claim "God told you to do it". If you can't, well, you can always claim "the Bible was written by men and they didn't expect the things we have now"

As for us using things we don't understand, I agree. However, so many of the things you use as examples can be measured and documented that I can't really compare them to the being that you claim it is impossible to know anything about (and consider that a virtue).

congrats on 42 yrs - My wife and I celebrated our 11th last year.

I know, you walk by faith and not by sight. Unfortunately, that also can mean you ignore what's in front of you because you're focused on the "substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen". AKA, being too heavenly minded to be of earthly good".

I appreciate your attempts to help me and I believe the motives are sincere. I must ask if you have faith and you believe that is all you need (as you seem to) why bother trying at all? You're already set. Why be concerned about this command of Christ's when you ignore so many others?

 

JcGadfly,

I have a friend who never wore/wears a watch.  Back in the day he could typically guess the time within ten minutes.  I can come pretty close guessing certain lengths - but the measuring tape and timepiece settle it.  You can make something out of that other than what it is but rightly understood if it's in the Scripture that settles anything for me.  It will be proven right in every letter in the end.

The things that we need to know about God are revealed.  The things that aren't revealed - we don't need to know.  You can bring them up to justify your unbelief but if there was something else that would cause more men to be saved the God Who sent even His Only Begotten Son to die for His enemies would have revealed it.

The point of the examples was that we don't have to understand all about things to take advantage of them - and if you could understand all about God He wouldn't be God.  The closer you get to God the more reason you'll have to be humble, and you can take that to the bank.

Thanks for the congrats and same to you with 12.  Whether 12 or 42 it seems a short time.  A guy I worked with 40 years ago was married 72 years.  He was 99 when he died.  I saw him on Thursday in intensive care before he died on Saturday.  One of the things on the wall was blinking 99 when I was there (probably heartbeat) but I thought that was interesting it blinked his age.  But 99 is still a short time.  

Reason would be with you on your evaluation of walking by faith in love for Christ but as with a lot of things opposite man's reasoning - that's not how it works.  Godliness makes everything go better.  Walking with Christ in faith enables us to do more and still stay humble - because like I said in Christ and God we see sound reason to be humble. 

So it would naturally follow that you would think walking by faith would lead to not doing anything.  But just the opposite.  Just look at Paul for example - a dynamo of energy and industriousness.  The sword can't be sheathed until death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

I don't think you see what you wrote in the first sentence - you use the scriptures to validate your own assumptions. If you want to do something and you search the scriptures finding one that says you can then claim "God told you to do it". If you can't, well, you can always claim "the Bible was written by men and they didn't expect the things we have now"

As for us using things we don't understand, I agree. However, so many of the things you use as examples can be measured and documented that I can't really compare them to the being that you claim it is impossible to know anything about (and consider that a virtue).

congrats on 42 yrs - My wife and I celebrated our 11th last year.

I know, you walk by faith and not by sight. Unfortunately, that also can mean you ignore what's in front of you because you're focused on the "substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen". AKA, being too heavenly minded to be of earthly good".

I appreciate your attempts to help me and I believe the motives are sincere. I must ask if you have faith and you believe that is all you need (as you seem to) why bother trying at all? You're already set. Why be concerned about this command of Christ's when you ignore so many others?

 

JcGadfly,

I have a friend who never wore/wears a watch.  Back in the day he could typically guess the time within ten minutes.  I can come pretty close guessing certain lengths - but the measuring tape and timepiece settle it.  You can make something out of that other than what it is but rightly understood if it's in the Scripture that settles anything for me.  It will be proven right in every letter in the end.

The things that we need to know about God are revealed.  The things that aren't revealed - we don't need to know.  You can bring them up to justify your unbelief but if there was something else that would cause more men to be saved the God Who sent even His Only Begotten Son to die for His enemies would have revealed it.

The point of the examples was that we don't have to understand all about things to take advantage of them - and if you could understand all about God He wouldn't be God.  The closer you get to God the more reason you'll have to be humble, and you can take that to the bank.

Thanks for the congrats and same to you with 12.  Whether 12 or 42 it seems a short time.  A guy I worked with 40 years ago was married 72 years.  He was 99 when he died.  I saw him on Thursday in intensive care before he died on Saturday.  One of the things on the wall was blinking 99 when I was there (probably heartbeat) but I thought that was interesting it blinked his age.  But 99 is still a short time.  

Reason would be with you on your evaluation of walking by faith in love for Christ but as with a lot of things opposite man's reasoning - that's not how it works.  Godliness makes everything go better.  Walking with Christ in faith enables us to do more and still stay humble - because like I said in Christ and God we see sound reason to be humble. 

So it would naturally follow that you would think walking by faith would lead to not doing anything.  But just the opposite.  Just look at Paul for example - a dynamo of energy and industriousness.  The sword can't be sheathed until death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The problem for me comes when opposing positions are found in Scripture - like:

Eph. 2:8-10 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

vs

James 2:14-26 -  What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
      Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

and Luke 12, where Jesus commands people to DO things and not just believe.

The things we know about God are self contradictory - he is love but he hates and is jealous. He tells us not to commit murder but dispatched people at his whim. He is the perfect love that casts out fear but we are supposed to fear him because he can throw body and soul into hell. He sent his son/himself as a sacrifice but gave up nothing. He loves us unconditionally as long as we worship him from our conversion and beyond. I wouldn't want a relationship with a human so inconsistent because I wouldn't trust them. Why give God a pass?

Do you mean the same Paul that preached that all you have to do is believe? Granted, he kept busy spreading that message. One could say that he didn't believe his words enough to follow them and added works to his faith.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
REAL FAITH SOMEWHAT OBSERVABLE

jcgadfly wrote:

 

The problem for me comes when opposing positions are found in Scripture - like:

Eph. 2:8-10 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

vs

James 2:14-26 -  What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
      Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

and Luke 12, where Jesus commands people to DO things and not just believe.

The things we know about God are self contradictory - he is love but he hates and is jealous. He tells us not to commit murder but dispatched people at his whim. He is the perfect love that casts out fear but we are supposed to fear him because he can throw body and soul into hell. He sent his son/himself as a sacrifice but gave up nothing. He loves us unconditionally as long as we worship him from our conversion and beyond. I wouldn't want a relationship with a human so inconsistent because I wouldn't trust them. Why give God a pass?

Do you mean the same Paul that preached that all you have to do is believe? Granted, he kept busy spreading that message. One could say that he didn't believe his words enough to follow them and added works to his faith.

 

JcGadfly,

Real faith in God manifests itself in real change in life, real hatred of evil and works which show evidence of a real living faith.  Here's another aspect of it: "he who has doubts is condemned if he eats (against conscience) because he does not act from faith; for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.  One view of that is our faith should be a "together" faith - where we are not divided against ourselves, not the divided state that results from going against our conscience.   

Paul said, "it is no longer I that live but Christ Who lives in me".  Paul had good works but the works issued from Christ Who lived in him.  The works that result from Christ living in a Christian are an expression of a real faith that can be observed, true, still salvation is from Christ and His Death Burial and Resurrection.  That's the gospel to be received by a real faith - which manifests itself in works which can not all be hid. 

We receive the gospel through real faith which convicts us, enables us to be "born anew" into Christ and into His Death, burial and Resurrection.  Our real faith means that since He died, we died with Him.  Since He was raised, we are raised to walk in a new life.  Since that life is really new and really real it results in real change and real actions.  But the actions aren't what saves - the actions just result from the real Living Christ and His Holy Spirit living in us. 

I have a friend that for one period of his life he didn't even check his mail box.  He said, "nothing good comes in the mail".  The postman eventually left a funny note on the mail box.  It said, "there's no sign of life at this address".  If there were no works we could say the same about that address.  But if the opposite is true, the right thing to do is give glory to Christ because it's His work. 

You mentioned the range of characteristics of God.  What can I say, God has it all.  There's no one outstanding characteristic (like Peter's impulsiveness) in either God or Jesus because they Both are Perfect in all characteristics.  God has perfect justice - yet is a merciful and forgiving God, thus to be feared. 

True He is the One Who can send body and soul into Hell but He is the One Who stands ready to forgive and totally forget our iniquities.  If you would come to Him for forgiveness you would remember things He doesn't (on purpose God would forget).  He puts our sins as far away as the east is from the west.  There's no contradiction.  If there would seem to be which there doesn't it would just indicate my ignorance and lack of understanding. 

Is this just academic with you or are you thinking about real faith manifesting itself in real change of heart, mind, affection - and observable works? 

 

"Let  the Christ, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe"  (God)

 

 

 

 

 

 


NoDeity
Bronze Member
NoDeity's picture
Posts: 268
Joined: 2009-10-13
User is offlineOffline
LOL!  Thanks, Fonzie.  I'd

LOL!  Thanks, Fonzie.  I'd forgotten about Romans 14:23: "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (emphasis added).  That's an excellent example of what is wrong with Christianity.

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 

The problem for me comes when opposing positions are found in Scripture - like:

Eph. 2:8-10 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

vs

James 2:14-26 -  What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
      Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

and Luke 12, where Jesus commands people to DO things and not just believe.

The things we know about God are self contradictory - he is love but he hates and is jealous. He tells us not to commit murder but dispatched people at his whim. He is the perfect love that casts out fear but we are supposed to fear him because he can throw body and soul into hell. He sent his son/himself as a sacrifice but gave up nothing. He loves us unconditionally as long as we worship him from our conversion and beyond. I wouldn't want a relationship with a human so inconsistent because I wouldn't trust them. Why give God a pass?

Do you mean the same Paul that preached that all you have to do is believe? Granted, he kept busy spreading that message. One could say that he didn't believe his words enough to follow them and added works to his faith.

 

JcGadfly,

Real faith in God manifests itself in real change in life, real hatred of evil and works which show evidence of a real living faith.  Here's another aspect of it: "he who has doubts is condemned if he eats (against conscience) because he does not act from faith; for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.  One view of that is our faith should be a "together" faith - where we are not divided against ourselves, not the divided state that results from going against our conscience.   

Paul said, "it is no longer I that live but Christ Who lives in me".  Paul had good works but the works issued from Christ Who lived in him.  The works that result from Christ living in a Christian are an expression of a real faith that can be observed, true, still salvation is from Christ and His Death Burial and Resurrection.  That's the gospel to be received by a real faith - which manifests itself in works which can not all be hid. 

We receive the gospel through real faith which convicts us, enables us to be "born anew" into Christ and into His Death, burial and Resurrection.  Our real faith means that since He died, we died with Him.  Since He was raised, we are raised to walk in a new life.  Since that life is really new and really real it results in real change and real actions.  But the actions aren't what saves - the actions just result from the real Living Christ and His Holy Spirit living in us. 

I have a friend that for one period of his life he didn't even check his mail box.  He said, "nothing good comes in the mail".  The postman eventually left a funny note on the mail box.  It said, "there's no sign of life at this address".  If there were no works we could say the same about that address.  But if the opposite is true, the right thing to do is give glory to Christ because it's His work. 

You mentioned the range of characteristics of God.  What can I say, God has it all.  There's no one outstanding characteristic (like Peter's impulsiveness) in either God or Jesus because they Both are Perfect in all characteristics.  God has perfect justice - yet is a merciful and forgiving God, thus to be feared. 

True He is the One Who can send body and soul into Hell but He is the One Who stands ready to forgive and totally forget our iniquities.  If you would come to Him for forgiveness you would remember things He doesn't (on purpose God would forget).  He puts our sins as far away as the east is from the west.  There's no contradiction.  If there would seem to be which there doesn't it would just indicate my ignorance and lack of understanding. 

Is this just academic with you or are you thinking about real faith manifesting itself in real change of heart, mind, affection - and observable works? 

 

"Let  the Christ, the King of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe"  (God)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everything starts by thinking for me - did you process the information before you heard it or were you persuaded without thought?

This real faith in God - did he give it to you before you came to him for salvation or did you come to him with your faith? Also, why does Paul consider thinking and doubting a sin? Doesn't this stand in opposition to Mal. 3:10 - "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."

One cannot prove something where there is no doubt. I'll go out on a limb and say that you don't pray anymore because you're asking for God to respond (you know, prove himself and remove your doubt).

I never said that the actions led to salvation - what I'm wondering about is why one part of the Bible says that works are necessary and another says they're not. Or are you working a circular argument = works come from faith which comes from works which come from..."

What I mentioned were the contradictory attributes of God - are they perfectly contradictory or is he perfectly jealous, a perfect murderer, a perfectly incomplete/useless sacrifice, etc.? Am I also supposed to fear his mercy and forgiveness also? Yeah, that'll bring me in.

And you close with what I call the "shampoo" view of God - You sin, you ask for forgiveness and promise you won't do it again, you get it, you find it expedient to do the sin again, lather, rinse, repeat" .

What are you needing forgiveness for anyway? You're already under grace so sin means nothing to you. You're under a New Covenant so nothing in the old one applies.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Dragoon
Dragoon's picture
Posts: 170
Joined: 2009-05-27
User is offlineOffline
Corruption

jcgadfly wrote:

Funny how you discuss people who would corrupt science for money and completely ignore those who sell God.

Do those guys do good (no matter who gets hurt) because they work for your boy?

As a Christian, I'd absolutely agree with you. There are those who 'sell' God, and some of those 'corrupt' Christianity for money (or power) as well. There is very strong criticism within Christianity of the 'Prosperity Gospel' and similar twists on the Bible for that very reason.

 

Sorry to jump back a few posts... I just thought that comment deserved a big thumbs up

 

There have been many Christains who have not lived or behaved in very 'Christlike' ways. Ghandi made that well known quote about 'liking our Christ, but no liking our Christians.' We as Christians SHOULD walk and talk in a manner that follows and glorifies God. Where we do not, we should be humble and simply say, 'we are sorry'.

I am sorry if at any time I fail to speak and act in a manner like my Lord, Jesus Christ.


Dragoon
Dragoon's picture
Posts: 170
Joined: 2009-05-27
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:The problem

jcgadfly wrote:

The problem for me comes when opposing positions are found in Scripture - like:

Eph. 2:8-10 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

vs

James 2:14-26 -  What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
      Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

jcgadfly wrote:
 

Everything starts by thinking for me - did you process the information before you heard it or were you persuaded without thought?

This real faith in God - did he give it to you before you came to him for salvation or did you come to him with your faith? Also, why does Paul consider thinking and doubting a sin? Doesn't this stand in opposition to Mal. 3:10 - "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."

One cannot prove something where there is no doubt. I'll go out on a limb and say that you don't pray anymore because you're asking for God to respond (you know, prove himself and remove your doubt).

I never said that the actions led to salvation - what I'm wondering about is why one part of the Bible says that works are necessary and another says they're not. Or are you working a circular argument = works come from faith which comes from works which come from..."

Please excuse me for stepping into this dialogue, but with respect I'd like to offer some thoughts for consideration (that was a polite way of saying "I got something to say!" ).

 

Hi JCGadfly and Fonzie,

I've been meditating on God's contradictions for awhile now, partially because it was through one of these contradictions that I became a follower of God. Some people almost seem afraid of looking at contradictions, because it 'may' cause doubts or lack of faith. If God is real though, we should have no fear of anything that appears contradictory... and if He is false, then it should be revealed.

I see the contradictions not as stumbling blocks to knowing God, but really as insights ino God's thinking. What APPEARS to be a contradiction for us, often merely reflects how God's thoughts are higher and different than our own.

In regards to faith and works;

Please note that the Ephesians passage says "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith".We cannot save ourselves, we cannot pull ourselves up to God's level by any action or work on our part. It is only through God's action (Grace) and our meekly and humbly accepting it that we can be 'right' before God. It is the gift of God, not by works.

 

James is not talking to those who have not accepted Christ though. He is talking to 'brothers and sisters'. If we truly have been saved through God's grace and not through our own actions, then that joy and change should manifest itself through our every thought, word and ACTION. As Fonzie puts it, "Real faith in God manifests itself in real change in life." In other words, our ACTIONS and DEEDS will now change as well, BECAUSE of what God has done within us.

Our FAITH and our ACTIONS will work together, and our faith will be made complete by what we do.

In other words, ACTIONS cannot save us. Only FAITH. But once FAITH has saved us, and God has changed us, then the love that is within our hearts from God will cry to be let out... in ACTION.

Action is evidence and an indicator that God truly has changed us. It is part of the fruit we bear in meeting other men... God's love. If we never let that love out of ourselves though, then what can we say about our faith? Without deeds, our faith is meaningless and either dies or is already dead. Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 

For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good good stored up in him... (Matthew 12:34-35)

 

---------

Thanks, and I hope my comment helps rather than hinders the dialogue. If I've made any errors in Biblical interpretation, please point them out to me and I'll be happy to either explain or apologize. God's peace be with us all.

 


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5094
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Crikey Dragoon

Dragoon wrote:

I am sorry if at any time I fail to speak and act in a manner like my Lord, Jesus Christ.

 

Why don't you climb off that big warhorse and take your armour off? I'd rather talk to human than a creature of fable any day of the week, agree with you or not. As for making statements people don't agree with, or causing offence, I know it won't have escaped your attention that forgiving people you love gives a really nice natural high. I'm old enough to know that all my friends and family annoy the hell out of me sometimes and it's mutual. But we forgive and let things go and move on. Maybe god could try that instead of using violent threats? That would be leading by example.

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5094
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Dude

Dragoon wrote:

In other words, ACTIONS cannot save us. Only FAITH. But once FAITH has saved us, and God has changed us, then the love that is within our hearts from God will cry to be let out... in ACTION.

Action is evidence and an indicator that God truly has changed us.

 

I do good things every day without faith in invisible magic things. What are you saying? Pre-swallowing the doctrine all our good actions have no meaning and after faith our love cries to get out? When I lost my faith I altered in goodness not one iota.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


NoDeity
Bronze Member
NoDeity's picture
Posts: 268
Joined: 2009-10-13
User is offlineOffline
It's a bit odd, isn't it,

It's a bit odd, isn't it, that some people seem to need to resort to the divine or the supernatural in order to explain what we see as normal, natural human goodness.

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


Dragoon
Dragoon's picture
Posts: 170
Joined: 2009-05-27
User is offlineOffline
Atheistextremist wrote:Why

Atheistextremist wrote:

Why don't you climb off that big warhorse and take your armour off?

NO WAY!!! I want you to strap on your armor, find a black stallion and join me up here!

 

Atheistextremist wrote:

As for making statements people don't agree with, or causing offence, I know it won't have escaped your attention that forgiving people you love gives a really nice natural high. I'm old enough to know that all my friends and family annoy the hell out of me sometimes and it's mutual. But we forgive and let things go and move on. Maybe god could try that instead of using violent threats? That would be leading by example.

Yeah, 'forgiving others' may, but most people don't enjoy humbling themselves and askig forgiveness. I'm glad you and your family do that.... it takes love.

God does forgive and move on though... he's called Christ. The problem I think, is that not everyone responds to forgiveness. Some people won't move until they are pushed, and some will never budge at all. God loves and desires all of us though, and it seems he's willing to try all avenues to call as many as he can.


Dragoon
Dragoon's picture
Posts: 170
Joined: 2009-05-27
User is offlineOffline
Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

Dragoon wrote:

In other words, ACTIONS cannot save us. Only FAITH. But once FAITH has saved us, and God has changed us, then the love that is within our hearts from God will cry to be let out... in ACTION.

Action is evidence and an indicator that God truly has changed us.

 

I do good things every day without faith in invisible magic things. What are you saying? Pre-swallowing the doctrine all our good actions have no meaning and after faith our love cries to get out? When I lost my faith I altered in goodness not one iota.

 

I'm not saying that people (non-Christians, Muslims, GLBTs, Mormons... maybe even lawyers) cannot do good things. I am saying that I believe the root of what goodness we have lies in our creation by God, and in the memory of that relationship in our hearts. Even our best though, is never perfection, and God is perfect good.

To enter into that perfect goodness, our efforts will never be enough, because we are imperfect. But God has provided a way... the atoning sacrifice of his son; Jesus the Christ


Dragoon
Dragoon's picture
Posts: 170
Joined: 2009-05-27
User is offlineOffline
NoDeity wrote:It's a bit

NoDeity wrote:

It's a bit odd, isn't it, that some people seem to need to resort to the divine or the supernatural in order to explain what we see as normal, natural human goodness.

Hi NoDiety,

Nice to meet you.

Every man does good to those who love him. If we greet our brothers, we are behaving as normal, natural 'good' humans. Even the worst murderers and rapists probably loved their friends.

The 'supernatural' is when God changes normal, natural humans to love their enemies and truly pray for their good. That's God. 


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 864
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
MAINTAINING CONSCIENCE VERSUS SLOTH AND A LEAKY ROOF

NoDeity wrote:

LOL!  Thanks, Fonzie.  I'd forgotten about Romans 14:23: "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (emphasis added).  That's an excellent example of what is wrong with Christianity.

 

NoDeity,

An aspect of faith is maintaining a real foundation of confidence set on rock - which doesn't come by dividing yourself off from yourself which would involve conscience; that is, doing things your conscience tells you not to do or going ahead when your conscience is registering doubts or setting off alarms about it. 

You can't accomplish anything in any area of life without being consecrated to it - unified and focused in your pursuit of it.  How could you enjoy going against yourself?

 

 

"As in water face answers to face, so the mind of man reflects the man"  (God)

 


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Dragoon wrote:NoDeity

Dragoon wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

It's a bit odd, isn't it, that some people seem to need to resort to the divine or the supernatural in order to explain what we see as normal, natural human goodness.

Hi NoDiety,

Nice to meet you.

Every man does good to those who love him. If we greet our brothers, we are behaving as normal, natural 'good' humans. Even the worst murderers and rapists probably loved their friends.

The 'supernatural' is when God changes normal, natural humans to love their enemies and truly pray for their good. That's God. 

That must be why guys like you and fonzie sound so gleeful when you talk about those going to hell?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Dragoon
Dragoon's picture
Posts: 170
Joined: 2009-05-27
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:Dragoon

jcgadfly wrote:

Dragoon wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

It's a bit odd, isn't it, that some people seem to need to resort to the divine or the supernatural in order to explain what we see as normal, natural human goodness.

Hi NoDiety,

Nice to meet you.

Every man does good to those who love him. If we greet our brothers, we are behaving as normal, natural 'good' humans. Even the worst murderers and rapists probably loved their friends.

The 'supernatural' is when God changes normal, natural humans to love their enemies and truly pray for their good. That's God. 

That must be why guys like you and fonzie sound so gleeful when you talk about those going to hell?

No. Makes me sad actually. I think there's way too much focus on hell... Christians are called to proclaim the Good News, and the good news is Christ Jesus.