It works for me!

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It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

As promised, I'm getting back to you.

I'm not going to get into your projection of mischaracterizations except to say "Stop it - it's hypocritical of you. You're better than this".

We do have a different picture of human beings, this is true. I picture humans as free creatures "fearfully and wonderfully made". capable of doing great things. You picture them as little more than drones existing for God's amusement. You believe that they are worth nothing without a servile relationship to God. As for the fragility of the body, I agree. I look at it as an opportunity to do all I can with what I have. You seem to look at it as a thing to loathe, waiting for it to go away so you can go to heaven.

Why is my picture more Biblical than yours?

So, you're mistaking my honest concern for another human as mere irony? I should be ticked off at that but I also should have expected it. Newsflash - "obvious exaggeration" of terms of friendship implies insincerity.

As for your Jonah comparison, do you remember why he went to Nineveh? Yes it was to preach but it was also to watch people die when God's judgment fell upon them. He was genuinely ticked off when the people of Nineveh repented. Is that why you're here preaching poorly? You're hoping people don't accept Christ so you can watch them roast in the hereafter? Me running from God?  No, that would represent the fear I had of him before (even when I was living for him). I turned around to face God and... there was nothing there but a bunch of Christians like you driving me away. For every Christian who walks his talk I run into a dozen like you. The Lord doesn't want "any to perish but all to come to repentance". Why don't you hold that position? Why do you come on here and pontificate, annoying any who might be interested?

Where did you get despair from my asking if you were arrogant enough to believe that you were God's only child? You're the one who seems to sit at odds with the Bible and other Christians (all the while claiming you know you're right in God's sight). I wouldn't have a problem being a child of God if he existed and followers like you didn't. As Gandhi said, "I like your Christ but I don't like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ"

So you have a hope that you guessed right about the hereafter based on the death of someone who a book claims didn't die? A God who took a few days off before being God again? How did he died for our sins if he didn't die? He's still alive right? He didn't stay dead so did he really die for my sins? Or do you guys keep killing him over and over so you can wash in his blood? Never mind your next paragraph confirms your barbarity - keep killing him so you can keep washing. There is nothing wrong with praying to keep short accounts but you're using it as an excuse to keep sinning your sin of pride when you come to "witness".

It's hard for me to accept Jesus or Paul when the person trying to gain my acceptance doesn't live their words. My problem is not with them but with you.

As for the Mencken quote in my sig - Believe it's despairing if you will but I have the proof of human civilization on my side.

 

JcGadfly,

As to why your picture of man is more "Biblical" than mine it relates to your characterization of my view and conception of "Biblical".   

As for your continued mischaracterization of the prophet Jonah, I want to come back to the subject of this thread: how faith worked for Jonah. 

Men can feel like they are in a uniquely despairing position but Jonah can say that in truth.  His unbelief speaks first - unbelief is always ready to blurt out what is later wished unsaid: "I am cast out from Thy presence".  Later his faith kicked in and, "when my soul fainted within me, I remembered the LORD and my prayer came to Thee, into Thy Holy Temple.  Those who pay regard to vain idols forsake their true loyalty.  But I with the voice of thanksgiving will sacrifice to Thee; what I have vowed I will pay.  Deliverance belongs to the LORD!"

This is an illustration of how when in poverty faith in God makes us rich, when in weakness faith in God makes us strong, when dead faith in God makes us alive. 

I am not sitting in judgment of you, I am presenting faith in Jesus which can save any man who is lost.  But the Great Physician can only heal those who are sick.  Those who are well have no need of a physician.  Is it true you have no need for Jesus? 

Yes, my hope is totally in Jesus, and if in any way not in Jesus it is my aim and burning desire to correct so it is.  I have great evidence for my hope in Jesus - and yes He is alive, and He is alive in me.  It would be possible to crucify Christ afresh as you mention - that would be by after being delivered from sin through the blood of Jesus to return to it, like a dog eating its vomit.  I don't aim to ever do that; however it would be a great mistake to think it couldn't happen.  I aim to be on guard against that.  This is war to the death and I don't aim to sheathe my sword until dead. 

As for your quote in your signature - yes it is possible to put one's faith in the collective agreement of the opinion of men, but to me it isn't reasonable or what the Light of Life living in my heart shows me is sound.  This would be building on sand.  It won't stand either the storms of life - unique like Jonah's or shared trials - and certainly won't withstand the final storm of the second death.  You won't be comforted by human civilization at that time and you will see then if not now that I am your friend in saying that - regardless of what civilization tells you.

 

 

 

 

Ah, you stopped reading the book after Jonah preached. It's unfortunate that you couldn't stick with it to the end. The book ends before we see whether Jonah learns the other lesson. I guess you don't love the Bible enough to read it - you just like to pick out the good stuff.

If you were presenting faith in god I'd have no problem. Unfortunately, you're presenting "I'm better than you because I have faith in God who does all these good things for me. The parts of the Bible I like reading tell me so."

Your hope is in the Jesus of your creation, I'll give you that. Shame that's not the one in the Bible.

As for the great physician, it seems more like Munchausen by proxy - Jesus can only heal you if he makes sure you stay sick.

You really don't get that Mencken quote, do you? People grow because they doubt, ask questions and seek knowledge - not because they accept what the writers of a book based on a Canaanite deity tells them. You do know that your God is the Canaanite deity Yahweh, right? Never thought of you as a pagan...

Oh wait, you just worship Jesus, don't you? Remember the first commandment?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Still no answer, so I'll

Still no answer, so I'll answer the question for him :

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/9886?page=12

Post #649 :

Meph writes : "As I said right after becoming a Christian  I was hit with bipolar....I take an extremely low dose of lithium now, (as does Dr Kay Redfield Jameson, AN UNQUIET MIND )...I have a conviction that not NEAR as much of that stuff is needed as the "experts" think. "

And here, in his third thread, post #505 :

"Fonzie" writes : " Right after I became a Christian I was struck with bipolar..... then finally find a doctor that would give me lithium ... I take a ultra small amount of it (a lot less than the healthcare world thinks is necessary), which turns out to be what Kay Redfield Jameson does (see "An Unquiet Mind. "

 

The rest of his biography gets repeated in both threads as well, but this should be nuff said, I think.

 

This isn't worth bothering the mods with. As far as I'm concerned, he can have his third chance, even if he feels he has to deceive people for it.

My point for bringing this up is simply this : If he can't be bothered to tell the truth about something as simple and obvious as this, and stubbornly refuses to admit it for weeks on end, then how can we discuss something as nebulous and vague as his own personal beliefs ?

 

I think that's a fair point. Anyone else who still wants to take another tour around his ego is free to do so. I'm out.

(as for the lithium, taking a small amount is normal for older people, as their kidney's get rid of the stuff a lot slower. Blood tests are vital because there's an extremely thin line between an active, toxic or totally useless dosage)

 


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It's not every day that

It's not every day that someone can make me look like a Biblical scholar.

Thanks, fonzie/meph.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Gravitas

jcgadfly wrote:

It's not every day that someone can make me look like a Biblical scholar.

Thanks, fonzie/meph.

 

JcGadfly,

Here the conqueror comes - blow the trumpet, bang the drums.  You seem a little top heavy there, JcGadfly.  True, Jonah was a stubborn character.  He didn't look to God when he was going down to Joppa to board the ship.  He didn't look to God when the storm hit - indeed he was wakened by a heathen (like the story of John Bunyan's conversion).  Some hearts aren't opened by a key but require a crowbar or powder ram. 

The neat thing however is that faith in God alone did work.  When everything was stripped away and Jonah could truthfully say "I alone am going through this wild thing" and the seaweed cleared faith stood up with a "yet" - "I will look to God".  You are right that the prophet Jonah wasn't "once for all disciplined" - it was an ongoing work.  But God was staying right with him with what the stubborn Jonah needed.  It's a message to the backslider.  The sooner one remembers God the better.  And you don't want a mixture now or in these storms of faith and doubt - a single eye is what is needed. 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

It's not every day that someone can make me look like a Biblical scholar.

Thanks, fonzie/meph.

 

JcGadfly,

Here the conqueror comes - blow the trumpet, bang the drums.  You seem a little top heavy there, JcGadfly.  True, Jonah was a stubborn character.  He didn't look to God when he was going down to Joppa to board the ship.  He didn't look to God when the storm hit - indeed he was wakened by a heathen (like the story of John Bunyan's conversion).  Some hearts aren't opened by a key but require a crowbar or powder ram. 

The neat thing however is that faith in God alone did work.  When everything was stripped away and Jonah could truthfully say "I alone am going through this wild thing" and the seaweed cleared faith stood up with a "yet" - "I will look to God".  You are right that the prophet Jonah wasn't "once for all disciplined" - it was an ongoing work.  But God was staying right with him with what the stubborn Jonah needed.  It's a message to the backslider.  The sooner one remembers God the better.  And you don't want a mixture now or in these storms of faith and doubt - a single eye is what is needed. 

 

 

 

No gloating - just a statement.

I read the Bible - you read the Bible selectively.

You stop after Jonah left the whale and preached. I read on to the gourd and the worm.

I've seen the God you worship - he was surrounded by people who claim, "thank you for making me so much better that these others" - you know, people like you.

Do you remember the Pharisee and the tax collector? I can guess which one you think you are. I can also tell you which one others see in you. They're not the same.

Keep your single eye - it's only looking at a distorted picture of you anyway.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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JONAH AND NINEVEH AND JCGADFLY

jcgadfly wrote:

No gloating - just a statement.

I read the Bible - you read the Bible selectively.

You stop after Jonah left the whale and preached. I read on to the gourd and the worm.

I've seen the God you worship - he was surrounded by people who claim, "thank you for making me so much better that these others" - you know, people like you.

Do you remember the Pharisee and the tax collector? I can guess which one you think you are. I can also tell you which one others see in you. They're not the same.

Keep your single eye - it's only looking at a distorted picture of you anyway.

 

JcGadfly,

You pay great tribute to reason.  Is it reasonable that you understand the Bible you don't believe and apply?  Is it reasonable that you reject the mystery of God's salvation revealed in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, the spotlight of the whole Bible - yet you understand the Bible and bill yourself as a scholar of it?  You don't believe in the God of the Bible yet you understand His written Word.  You reject the Living Word, Christ, the King of Kings - yet it is reasonable to you that you know these things and can pass judgment on them.  Ok.  That's a side of reason that isn't reasonable to me. 

I have read the rest of the book of Jonah, and though I'm not a scholar of it I get a lot of love for God out of it.  God prepared a fish/ a plant, a worm, a hot east wind.  God is in our comforts, losses, trials, ups and downs.  God is working with us just like Jonah - all carefully and Divinely designed and administered with Divine timing.  We in response need to work with God - accepting trials as discipline and everything as coming to us from a loving God Who knows exactly what He's doing. 

Like Jonah said when he prayed in the belly of the fish, "Deliverance is of the LORD".  The first step for a dead man is just as much a miracle as all the rest.  Salvation is all of God from start to finish.  It was God's idea, it was totally God's Blood, it is God's in application.  We need God's grace not just at the first, but every day, every moment.  We don't gather the manna ahead - we gather it daily, minute by minute.  Salvation is all of God as Jonah said in the belly of the fish.  It's not given by a man and a man can't take it away - so I'm thankful for that. 

The fool says in his heart there is no God and the fool shows his folly in living moment by moment as if there is no God.  The real stories, the ones worth telling (like Jonah) and worth saving (for all eternity) are related to God in every respect. 

And God's Salvation is received by man - by faith.  God gives the faith, opens the eyes of the blind, makes the dead come alive and rise up and walk.  If you cry out to God for this faith "who knows?" as the king of Ninevah said - "who knows?" but what He will whet His sword and cross your multi-moats of pride and confidence in reason and your good works and scale the wall of your own ideas and falsely called knowledge and deliver you from your own devices.  The God I love and read about in the book of Jonah is as ready to do that for you as He was for the people of Nineveh.  Perhaps He will shine a shaft of light into your heart and you will have a different thought toward Jesus and yourself and sin.  Perhaps He will release an arrow and you will feel it for your ultimate good. 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

No gloating - just a statement.

I read the Bible - you read the Bible selectively.

You stop after Jonah left the whale and preached. I read on to the gourd and the worm.

I've seen the God you worship - he was surrounded by people who claim, "thank you for making me so much better that these others" - you know, people like you.

Do you remember the Pharisee and the tax collector? I can guess which one you think you are. I can also tell you which one others see in you. They're not the same.

Keep your single eye - it's only looking at a distorted picture of you anyway.

 

JcGadfly,

You pay great tribute to reason.  Is it reasonable that you understand the Bible you don't believe and apply?  Is it reasonable that you reject the mystery of God's salvation revealed in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, the spotlight of the whole Bible - yet you understand the Bible and bill yourself as a scholar of it?  You don't believe in the God of the Bible yet you understand His written Word.  You reject the Living Word, Christ, the King of Kings - yet it is reasonable to you that you know these things and can pass judgment on them.  Ok.  That's a side of reason that isn't reasonable to me. 

I have read the rest of the book of Jonah, and though I'm not a scholar of it I get a lot of love for God out of it.  God prepared a fish/ a plant, a worm, a hot east wind.  God is in our comforts, losses, trials, ups and downs.  God is working with us just like Jonah - all carefully and Divinely designed and administered with Divine timing.  We in response need to work with God - accepting trials as discipline and everything as coming to us from a loving God Who knows exactly what He's doing. 

Like Jonah said when he prayed in the belly of the fish, "Deliverance is of the LORD".  The first step for a dead man is just as much a miracle as all the rest.  Salvation is all of God from start to finish.  It was God's idea, it was totally God's Blood, it is God's in application.  We need God's grace not just at the first, but every day, every moment.  We don't gather the manna ahead - we gather it daily, minute by minute.  Salvation is all of God as Jonah said in the belly of the fish.  It's not given by a man and a man can't take it away - so I'm thankful for that. 

The fool says in his heart there is no God and the fool shows his folly in living moment by moment as if there is no God.  The real stories, the ones worth telling (like Jonah) and worth saving (for all eternity) are related to God in every respect. 

And God's Salvation is received by man - by faith.  God gives the faith, opens the eyes of the blind, makes the dead come alive and rise up and walk.  If you cry out to God for this faith "who knows?" as the king of Ninevah said - "who knows?" but what He will whet His sword and cross your multi-moats of pride and confidence in reason and your good works and scale the wall of your own ideas and falsely called knowledge and deliver you from your own devices.  The God I love and read about in the book of Jonah is as ready to do that for you as He was for the people of Nineveh.  Perhaps He will shine a shaft of light into your heart and you will have a different thought toward Jesus and yourself and sin.  Perhaps He will release an arrow and you will feel it for your ultimate good. 

 

 

 

You heard it here, guys and gals.

Pastor Fonzie/Meph says you can't read the Bible properly without believing in it first.

I understand that you see a danger in that - it means people might actually read what it says instead of what they've been told to read into it.

I can see that you worship the book instead of its subject. You may as well skip ahead and worship the subject's creators (people).

I also see that you still follow the circular argument of you can't have faith that God will save you until God gives it to you (aka you have to believe in God before you can believe in God).

I see that you're trying to veil your contempt for me in scripture. That way you can call me a fool (which Christ commands against under threat of hellfire) by saying "I was just quoting scripture".

Your series of "God prepared" shows me you didn't read it. God did not prepare them - he sent them. Is it really that hard for God to get someone out of troubles that he put them in to begin with?

Why would I want a different attitude about sin? Mine is the same as yours. It doesn't exist for both of us (just for different reasons). It doesn't exist for me because I see no evidence for the God who created it. It doesn't exist for you because Paul of Tarsus, the creator of your religion, absolved believers in Christ from following God's law (see Romans 4). 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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No matter which way you slice it, Fonzie

Fonzie wrote:

 

God prepared a fish/ a plant, a worm, a hot east wind.  God is in our comforts, losses, trials, ups and downs.  God is working with us just like Jonah - all carefully and Divinely designed and administered with Divine timing.  We in response need to work with God - accepting trials as discipline and everything as coming to us from a loving God Who knows exactly what He's doing. 

Like Jonah said when he prayed in the belly of the fish, "Deliverance is of the LORD".  The first step for a dead man is just as much a miracle as all the rest.  Salvation is all of God from start to finish.  It was God's idea, it was totally God's Blood, it is God's in application.  We need God's grace not just at the first, but every day, every moment.  We don't gather the manna ahead - we gather it daily, minute by minute.  Salvation is all of God as Jonah said in the belly of the fish.  It's not given by a man and a man can't take it away - so I'm thankful for that. 

The fool says in his heart there is no God and the fool shows his folly in living moment by moment as if there is no God.  The real stories, the ones worth telling (like Jonah) and worth saving (for all eternity) are related to God in every respect. 

And God's Salvation is received by man - by faith.  God gives the faith, opens the eyes of the blind, makes the dead come alive and rise up and walk.  If you cry out to God for this faith "who knows?" as the king of Ninevah said - "who knows?" but what He will whet His sword and cross your multi-moats of pride and confidence in reason and your good works and scale the wall of your own ideas and falsely called knowledge and deliver you from your own devices.  The God I love and read about in the book of Jonah is as ready to do that for you as He was for the people of Nineveh.  Perhaps He will shine a shaft of light into your heart and you will have a different thought toward Jesus and yourself and sin.  Perhaps He will release an arrow and you will feel it for your ultimate good. 

 

The above post clearly indicates you're as mad as a hatter. What are you doing here but tipping a steaming vat over dogma over poor Gadfly's head? No doubt you got a sweet little high out of this as you tried to come off as if peering through the leaves of the sycamore tree but Gadfly's open mind in spite of his biblical knowledge is far more beautiful and righteous than the gooey pap you're oozing out here. 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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jcgadfly wrote: Pastor

jcgadfly wrote:
Pastor Fonzie/Meph says you can't read the Bible properly without believing in it first.

Don't you know that you can't really understand the Bible unless you're wearing your magic Jesus glasses?

(I've come across that sort of thing from time to time...)

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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How did Jonah survive in the

How did Jonah survive in the belly of the fish?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

No gloating - just a statement.

I read the Bible - you read the Bible selectively.

You stop after Jonah left the whale and preached. I read on to the gourd and the worm.

I've seen the God you worship - he was surrounded by people who claim, "thank you for making me so much better that these others" - you know, people like you.

Do you remember the Pharisee and the tax collector? I can guess which one you think you are. I can also tell you which one others see in you. They're not the same.

Keep your single eye - it's only looking at a distorted picture of you anyway.

 

JcGadfly,

You pay great tribute to reason.  Is it reasonable that you understand the Bible you don't believe and apply?  Is it reasonable that you reject the mystery of God's salvation revealed in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, the spotlight of the whole Bible - yet you understand the Bible and bill yourself as a scholar of it?  You don't believe in the God of the Bible yet you understand His written Word.  You reject the Living Word, Christ, the King of Kings - yet it is reasonable to you that you know these things and can pass judgment on them.  Ok.  That's a side of reason that isn't reasonable to me. 

I have read the rest of the book of Jonah, and though I'm not a scholar of it I get a lot of love for God out of it.  God prepared a fish/ a plant, a worm, a hot east wind.  God is in our comforts, losses, trials, ups and downs.  God is working with us just like Jonah - all carefully and Divinely designed and administered with Divine timing.  We in response need to work with God - accepting trials as discipline and everything as coming to us from a loving God Who knows exactly what He's doing. 

Like Jonah said when he prayed in the belly of the fish, "Deliverance is of the LORD".  The first step for a dead man is just as much a miracle as all the rest.  Salvation is all of God from start to finish.  It was God's idea, it was totally God's Blood, it is God's in application.  We need God's grace not just at the first, but every day, every moment.  We don't gather the manna ahead - we gather it daily, minute by minute.  Salvation is all of God as Jonah said in the belly of the fish.  It's not given by a man and a man can't take it away - so I'm thankful for that. 

The fool says in his heart there is no God and the fool shows his folly in living moment by moment as if there is no God.  The real stories, the ones worth telling (like Jonah) and worth saving (for all eternity) are related to God in every respect. 

And God's Salvation is received by man - by faith.  God gives the faith, opens the eyes of the blind, makes the dead come alive and rise up and walk.  If you cry out to God for this faith "who knows?" as the king of Ninevah said - "who knows?" but what He will whet His sword and cross your multi-moats of pride and confidence in reason and your good works and scale the wall of your own ideas and falsely called knowledge and deliver you from your own devices.  The God I love and read about in the book of Jonah is as ready to do that for you as He was for the people of Nineveh.  Perhaps He will shine a shaft of light into your heart and you will have a different thought toward Jesus and yourself and sin.  Perhaps He will release an arrow and you will feel it for your ultimate good. 

 

 

 

You heard it here, guys and gals.

Pastor Fonzie/Meph says you can't read the Bible properly without believing in it first.

I understand that you see a danger in that - it means people might actually read what it says instead of what they've been told to read into it.

I can see that you worship the book instead of its subject. You may as well skip ahead and worship the subject's creators (people).

I also see that you still follow the circular argument of you can't have faith that God will save you until God gives it to you (aka you have to believe in God before you can believe in God).

I see that you're trying to veil your contempt for me in scripture. That way you can call me a fool (which Christ commands against under threat of hellfire) by saying "I was just quoting scripture".

Your series of "God prepared" shows me you didn't read it. God did not prepare them - he sent them. Is it really that hard for God to get someone out of troubles that he put them in to begin with?

Why would I want a different attitude about sin? Mine is the same as yours. It doesn't exist for both of us (just for different reasons). It doesn't exist for me because I see no evidence for the God who created it. It doesn't exist for you because Paul of Tarsus, the creator of your religion, absolved believers in Christ from following God's law (see Romans 4). 

 

JcGadfly,

 

Haven't you read the Devil quoting the Words of God - with something missing?  He tried to shade the meaning with Jesus - ("Throw Yourself down for it is written....)  Jesus wasn't impressed. 

 

 

 


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Fonzie, are you saying that

Fonzie, are you saying that the Devil is making you tweak Scripture that fits your own narrow views?

Or are you calling me the Devil because I look at what the Bible says instead of what you'd like it to say?

Or are you daring to compare yourself to Christ?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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THE SPECIFIC POINT

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie, are you saying that the Devil is making you tweak Scripture that fits your own narrow views?

Or are you calling me the Devil because I look at what the Bible says instead of what you'd like it to say?

Or are you daring to compare yourself to Christ?

 

JcGadfly,

The specific point we were discussing was the question of the understanding of Scripture as related to the accepting of the God Who wrote it and Who sent the Living Word to give us a full size model of Who He is and What He meant.  Your position is that you can understand Scripture without believing God or applying it to your life.  I brought up an example of how easy it is to misunderstand what God says et. al. from the mouth of the Devil. 

This happened in the Garden of Eden with a subtle coloring of God's rule, then a statement of the opposite ("you will not die...).  If you take the position that the Devil really understands Scripture - how is it that he would settle his own fate in killing the Lamb of God, the death of Death?  How is it that he would think he could take on God if he really understands Scripture? 

I'm not calling you the Devil or comparing myself to Christ.  Why are you so touchy you can't just discuss a point without blowing it into a personal assault?  I honestly don't think it is possible to understand the Word of God without accepting God and Jesus - Who removes the barrier between God and man (sin) so God can draw us near, and we can "know the Shepherd's Voice".  "My sheep know My Voice".  You by your own admission are not one of the Lord's sheep.  You therefore don't know His voice.  I'm saying you the guy named JcGadfly don't truly understand His Words.  I'm also saying that could change if you come to believe in Jesus. 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie, are you saying that the Devil is making you tweak Scripture that fits your own narrow views?

Or are you calling me the Devil because I look at what the Bible says instead of what you'd like it to say?

Or are you daring to compare yourself to Christ?

 

JcGadfly,

The specific point we were discussing was the question of the understanding of Scripture as related to the accepting of the God Who wrote it and Who sent the Living Word to give us a full size model of Who He is and What He meant.  Your position is that you can understand Scripture without believing God or applying it to your life.  I brought up an example of how easy it is to misunderstand what God says et. al. from the mouth of the Devil. 

This happened in the Garden of Eden with a subtle coloring of God's rule, then a statement of the opposite ("you will not die...).  If you take the position that the Devil really understands Scripture - how is it that he would settle his own fate in killing the Lamb of God, the death of Death?  How is it that he would think he could take on God if he really understands Scripture? 

I'm not calling you the Devil or comparing myself to Christ.  Why are you so touchy you can't just discuss a point without blowing it into a personal assault?  I honestly don't think it is possible to understand the Word of God without accepting God and Jesus - Who removes the barrier between God and man (sin) so God can draw us near, and we can "know the Shepherd's Voice".  "My sheep know My Voice".  You by your own admission are not one of the Lord's sheep.  You therefore don't know His voice.  I'm saying you the guy named JcGadfly don't truly understand His Words.  I'm also saying that could change if you come to believe in Jesus. 

 

 

 

 

That's laughably hypocritical of you.

You call up the old proverb "the devil can cite scripture for his own ends and then say you weren't calling me the devil. Too funny.

Oh, you know the Devil told the truth in the Garden, don't you? You can try to get away from that but it needs some severe mental gymnastics.

What you keep saying

"I honestly don't think it is possible to understand the Word of God without accepting God and Jesus"

makes it impossible for anyone to be saved.

Your logic says that that a person has to have accepted Jesus before they can accept Jesus.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie, are you saying that the Devil is making you tweak Scripture that fits your own narrow views?

Or are you calling me the Devil because I look at what the Bible says instead of what you'd like it to say?

Or are you daring to compare yourself to Christ?

 

JcGadfly,

The specific point we were discussing was the question of the understanding of Scripture as related to the accepting of the God Who wrote it and Who sent the Living Word to give us a full size model of Who He is and What He meant.  Your position is that you can understand Scripture without believing God or applying it to your life.  I brought up an example of how easy it is to misunderstand what God says et. al. from the mouth of the Devil. 

This happened in the Garden of Eden with a subtle coloring of God's rule, then a statement of the opposite ("you will not die...).  If you take the position that the Devil really understands Scripture - how is it that he would settle his own fate in killing the Lamb of God, the death of Death?  How is it that he would think he could take on God if he really understands Scripture? 

I'm not calling you the Devil or comparing myself to Christ.  Why are you so touchy you can't just discuss a point without blowing it into a personal assault?  I honestly don't think it is possible to understand the Word of God without accepting God and Jesus - Who removes the barrier between God and man (sin) so God can draw us near, and we can "know the Shepherd's Voice".  "My sheep know My Voice".  You by your own admission are not one of the Lord's sheep.  You therefore don't know His voice.  I'm saying you the guy named JcGadfly don't truly understand His Words.  I'm also saying that could change if you come to believe in Jesus. 

 

 

 

 

That's laughably hypocritical of you.

You call up the old proverb "the devil can cite scripture for his own ends and then say you weren't calling me the devil. Too funny.

Oh, you know the Devil told the truth in the Garden, don't you? You can try to get away from that but it needs some severe mental gymnastics.

What you keep saying

"I honestly don't think it is possible to understand the Word of God without accepting God and Jesus"

makes it impossible for anyone to be saved.

Your logic says that that a person has to have accepted Jesus before they can accept Jesus.

 

JcGadfly,

That's laughably ignorant of you.  The Devil did lie to Eve in the garden.  They did die - spiritually.  And in them.... so did we. 

You can't really know the God of the Bible or the Savior unless you accept Jesus as your LORD and Savior - this is true.  You can understand enough to accept Him as Lord and Savior, to go through the door of salvation,  but there is a barrier between you and knowing God and Jesus - sin.  Jesus can and would remove that barrier - and the initial cleansing comes with a maintenance agreement.  When "born again" into Christ you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit - a part of your inheritance, a piece of heaven. 

Just like a man's spirit is what knows the thoughts of a man, the Spirit of God knows the thoughts of God.  He works with us on that.  You can't come to know the God of the Bible without submitting to Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit's guidance.  But that's available to you.  You have to downsize your load of pride to accept it.  He could help you with that too.  You won't be able to blame God in any respect if you don't take advantage.  If you are saved you will have to thank God for it.  If you are lost you can only blame yourself in the end. 


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As I said, mental

As I said, mental gymnastics. All that work to cover up how God caused man to sin and "fall".

The rest is an impressive preachy dodge. Why do you want no one to be saved?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:As I said,

jcgadfly wrote:

As I said, mental gymnastics. All that work to cover up how God caused man to sin and "fall".

The rest is an impressive preachy dodge. Why do you want no one to be saved?

 

JcGadfly,

Yes you say things but they don't make sense. 

He who believes in Jesus will be saved.  This is the only way anyone can be saved.  This is the Way He has provided. 

 

 

 


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Saved from what?

God's hate?

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:God's

Atheistextremist wrote:

God's hate?

 

Atheistextremist,

God is Love.  His justice and mercy are both evident and made known in Christ lifted up.  When we look to Him - like the Israelites who had been bitten by fiery serpents in the wilderness looked to the bronze serpent on the pole lived - we live and are saved from death when we look to Jesus and put all our trust in Him and His blood poured out as the atoning price for our sins paid by God Himself.  

You are saved like Noah on the ark in Christ from this present evil world. 

 

 

 

 

 


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NoDeity wrote:jcgadfly

NoDeity wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Pastor Fonzie/Meph says you can't read the Bible properly without believing in it first.

Don't you know that you can't really understand the Bible unless you're wearing your magic Jesus glasses?

(I've come across that sort of thing from time to time...)

 

NoDeity,

If you enter a cave with a guide with a torch you can see the jeweled beauty of the formations safely.  You realize how dependent you are on the guide and his torch.  The Holy Spirit shows us the intimate Truth of God.  We also learn from trials.  In the desert of our lives there has been a burning bush that still burns and is not consumed.  The Holy Spirit is like a personal trainer - food, exercise, illustrations, light, safety.

 

 


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butterbattle wrote:How did

butterbattle wrote:

How did Jonah survive in the belly of the fish?

 

butterbattle,

 

Jonah survived in the belly of the fish by the power of the One Who made the fish, Jonah, water, land, trees, electrons and coffee.  By things He created and holds together we survive just like Jonah - only not in the belly of a fish but on the surface of a ball floating in space.

If you think the gospel of God is only one of many revelations, try the exercise of reading other pretended revelations such as the Koran or Book of Mormon.  You would have to work at it to not laughing if you have any spiritual discernment. 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

As I said, mental gymnastics. All that work to cover up how God caused man to sin and "fall".

The rest is an impressive preachy dodge. Why do you want no one to be saved?

 

JcGadfly,

Yes you say things but they don't make sense. 

He who believes in Jesus will be saved.  This is the only way anyone can be saved.  This is the Way He has provided. 

 

 

 

It's a shame your logic forbids that.

Since you have to be a Christian before you can be saved (in your eyes), it's impossible for anyone to change.

Or is this a backpedal?

I do like how you fall back on the "you have to lose your pride and be like ME" line. Nice bit of irony.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:Fonzie

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

As I said, mental gymnastics. All that work to cover up how God caused man to sin and "fall".

The rest is an impressive preachy dodge. Why do you want no one to be saved?

 

JcGadfly,

Yes you say things but they don't make sense. 

He who believes in Jesus will be saved.  This is the only way anyone can be saved.  This is the Way He has provided. 

 

 

 

It's a shame your logic forbids that.

Since you have to be a Christian before you can be saved (in your eyes), it's impossible for anyone to change.

Or is this a backpedal?

I do like how you fall back on the "you have to lose your pride and be like ME" line. Nice bit of irony.

 

JcGadfly,

Jesus stands at the door and knocks, waiting for you to open to Him.  You can learn enough to open and accept Him - but as far as what a relationship with Him and God is like - that is foreign to your experience.  Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit provide exactly what you need for change - not me.   

You could imagine what it was like to be married.  You could even pretend you were married.  You still wouldn't know what being married is like until you were married.  

Don't have a desire for you to be like me - except as Paul meant it before Felix (you being a Bible scholar no further explanation needed).

 

 

  

 

 

 


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Fonzie

Fonzie wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

God's hate?

 

Atheistextremist,

God is Love.  His justice and mercy are both evident and made known in Christ lifted up.  When we look to Him - like the Israelites who had been bitten by fiery serpents in the wilderness looked to the bronze serpent on the pole lived - we live and are saved from death when we look to Jesus and put all our trust in Him and His blood poured out as the atoning price for our sins paid by God Himself.  

You are saved like Noah on the ark in Christ from this present evil world. 

 

 

Ummmmmmmmmmm. What do I need mercy from, Fonzie, Who is god saving me from? His misunderstanding of the word forgiveness?

I don't need any one's 'blood poured out' for me. That's plain creepy.

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Oh god.....

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

As I said, mental gymnastics. All that work to cover up how God caused man to sin and "fall".

The rest is an impressive preachy dodge. Why do you want no one to be saved?

 

JcGadfly,

Yes you say things but they don't make sense. 

He who believes in Jesus will be saved.  This is the only way anyone can be saved.  This is the Way He has provided. 

 

 

 

It's a shame your logic forbids that.

Since you have to be a Christian before you can be saved (in your eyes), it's impossible for anyone to change.

Or is this a backpedal?

I do like how you fall back on the "you have to lose your pride and be like ME" line. Nice bit of irony.

 

JcGadfly,

Jesus stands at the door and knocks, waiting for you to open to Him.  You can learn enough to open and accept Him - but as far as what a relationship with Him and God is like - that is foreign to your experience.  Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit provide exactly what you need for change - not me.   

You could imagine what it was like to be married.  You could even pretend you were married.  You still wouldn't know what being married is like until you were married.  

Don't have a desire for you to be like me - except as Paul meant it before Felix (you being a Bible scholar no further explanation needed).

 

 

Please make him stop...

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Fonzie wrote:NoDeity

Fonzie wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Pastor Fonzie/Meph says you can't read the Bible properly without believing in it first.

Don't you know that you can't really understand the Bible unless you're wearing your magic Jesus glasses?

(I've come across that sort of thing from time to time...)

 

NoDeity,

If you enter a cave with a guide with a torch you can see the jeweled beauty of the formations safely.  You realize how dependent you are on the guide and his torch.  The Holy Spirit shows us the intimate Truth of God.  We also learn from trials.  In the desert of our lives there has been a burning bush that still burns and is not consumed.  The Holy Spirit is like a personal trainer - food, exercise, illustrations, light, safety. 

The trouble with that is that there are no good reasons to think that that the guidance of the Holy Spirit is anything other than the believer's fevered imagination.

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

God's hate?

 

Atheistextremist,

God is Love.  His justice and mercy are both evident and made known in Christ lifted up.  When we look to Him - like the Israelites who had been bitten by fiery serpents in the wilderness looked to the bronze serpent on the pole lived - we live and are saved from death when we look to Jesus and put all our trust in Him and His blood poured out as the atoning price for our sins paid by God Himself.  

You are saved like Noah on the ark in Christ from this present evil world. 

 

 

Ummmmmmmmmmm. What do I need mercy from, Fonzie, Who is god saving me from? His misunderstanding of the word forgiveness?

I don't need any one's 'blood poured out' for me. That's plain creepy.

 

 

Atheistextremist,

You are in your castle with probably more than one moat around it - your confidence in your own ideas, your confidence in man's ideas, maybe your trust in your own righteousness. 

An aspect of the spiritual prison you are held in is the attitude that you are well and not in need of the Great Physician - Jesus.  The Bible says "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".  The only way to escape from the one who imprisons you is through the atoning death of Jesus, through the blood He shed on the cross.  Your rejection of that is a judgment in itself upon you according to the Scriptures, not from me but from them.  You aren't the first to have these attitudes, and if God revealed the light of the truth of the gospel to you you would not be the first to realize it and cry out to Him and be delivered.  That could be the case at any time - through faith in Christ. 

 

 

 

 


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Way to miss the point there,

Way to miss the point there, guy.

What you say is impossible according to your own logic. You see, in your view, before I can be in a relationship with God I have to be in a relationship with God. To push your marriage analogy into your mindset that you are now running from - I'd have to be already married to my current wife before I could marry her for the first time.

Do you not read what you write?

As for Paul before Felix - I really don't think it's a good idea to lie before authorities as Paul did when he said "I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets." or how he claimed Roman citizenship as it suited him (despite being a Benjamite).

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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ALL THINGS POSSIBLE WITH GOD

jcgadfly wrote:

Way to miss the point there, guy.

What you say is impossible according to your own logic. You see, in your view, before I can be in a relationship with God I have to be in a relationship with God. To push your marriage analogy into your mindset that you are now running from - I'd have to be already married to my current wife before I could marry her for the first time.

Do you not read what you write?

As for Paul before Felix - I really don't think it's a good idea to lie before authorities as Paul did when he said "I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets." or how he claimed Roman citizenship as it suited him (despite being a Benjamite).

 

JcGadfly,

Sure every metaphor has its flaws, but I still think it works.  You could get to know enough about the woman to decide to marry - but you wouldn't know her then like you know her after 41 years of happy marriage.  The marriage was just the door to the life together.  To be born again in Christ is just going through the door - with the additional phenomenon of the "new creation", all things made new, a new heart, the gift of the Holy Spirit - an earnest of our inheritance, our hearts sprinkled clean, our sins washed away.  I'm not sure if the butterfly remembers wormhood, but I remember what it was like before I became a Christian.  It's pretty incomprehendable and you won't ever know it by outside impressions. 

 

 

 

 

"And we have the prophetic Word made more sure."   God

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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So you concede the point

So you concede the point that no one can be saved according to you?

You've not mentioned it yet - how is it possible to meet your requirement of having God's salvation before one can receive it?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:So you

jcgadfly wrote:

So you concede the point that no one can be saved according to you?

You've not mentioned it yet - how is it possible to meet your requirement of having God's salvation before one can receive it?

 

JcGadfly,

 

I don't concede any of your points. 

Those who believe in Jesus will be saved.  Those who don't believe in Him will be lost.

If you are lost it will be your own fault.  If you are saved it will be all to God's glory. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

So you concede the point that no one can be saved according to you?

You've not mentioned it yet - how is it possible to meet your requirement of having God's salvation before one can receive it?

 

JcGadfly,

 

I don't concede any of your points. 

Those who believe in Jesus will be saved.  Those who don't believe in Him will be lost.

If you are lost it will be your own fault.  If you are saved it will be all to God's glory. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Funny that - I'm asking you to agree with your points. Shame you still can't do it.

You say that one needs faith before coming to God - you also claim that God will give a person that faith.

So do you come to god with faith or do you sit on your butt and let God give you that faith?

Once again, do you need to be a christian before you become a Christian (as you claim) or do you start with nothing and initiate the relationship with god?

Either way god needs you more than you need him.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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 Fonzie,I just wanted to

 Fonzie,

I just wanted to say that I understand where you're coming from, because I was more or less a Christian for some time, and it worked for me also. When I started learning more about it, I realized I just could not believe it was true anymore, and had to find other explanations for what I'd experienced. I won't tell you what I learned, because I don't want to destroy what you have. It was not an easy realization, quite the contrary, I felt a bit of disappointment and disconnectedness. But what replaced that was a clarity in the truth that I found satisfying in a much more grounded sort of way than I'd ever felt before.

Good luck in this forum, it can get nasty in here.

R


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smartypants wrote: Fonzie,I

smartypants wrote:

 Fonzie,

I just wanted to say that I understand where you're coming from, because I was more or less a Christian for some time, and it worked for me also. When I started learning more about it, I realized I just could not believe it was true anymore, and had to find other explanations for what I'd experienced. I won't tell you what I learned, because I don't want to destroy what you have. It was not an easy realization, quite the contrary, I felt a bit of disappointment and disconnectedness. But what replaced that was a clarity in the truth that I found satisfying in a much more grounded sort of way than I'd ever felt before.

Good luck in this forum, it can get nasty in here.

R

Have no fear for him - he gives as good as he gets.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:smartypants

jcgadfly wrote:

smartypants wrote:

 Fonzie,

I just wanted to say that I understand where you're coming from, because I was more or less a Christian for some time, and it worked for me also. When I started learning more about it, I realized I just could not believe it was true anymore, and had to find other explanations for what I'd experienced. I won't tell you what I learned, because I don't want to destroy what you have. It was not an easy realization, quite the contrary, I felt a bit of disappointment and disconnectedness. But what replaced that was a clarity in the truth that I found satisfying in a much more grounded sort of way than I'd ever felt before.

Good luck in this forum, it can get nasty in here.

R

Have no fear for him - he gives as good as he gets.

This whole thread is way tl;dr, so I'm sure that's true. The OP I was focusing on seemed mostly innocent to me, though, however much naive.


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EVER HEAR OF PREGNANCY JCGADFLY?

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

So you concede the point that no one can be saved according to you?

You've not mentioned it yet - how is it possible to meet your requirement of having God's salvation before one can receive it?

 

JcGadfly,

 

I don't concede any of your points. 

Those who believe in Jesus will be saved.  Those who don't believe in Him will be lost.

If you are lost it will be your own fault.  If you are saved it will be all to God's glory. 

 

 

 

 

Funny that - I'm asking you to agree with your points. Shame you still can't do it.

You say that one needs faith before coming to God - you also claim that God will give a person that faith.

So do you come to god with faith or do you sit on your butt and let God give you that faith?

Once again, do you need to be a christian before you become a Christian (as you claim) or do you start with nothing and initiate the relationship with god?

Either way god needs you more than you need him.

 

 

 

JcGadfly,

 

God provides what faith you need to come to Christ.  Your part is not resisting the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 

Sin is described in a similar way - evil desire is conceived and gives birth to sin.  Yielding to the guidance of the Holy Spirit leads to the new birth in Christ.  Pregnancy before birth, JcGadfly.  Conception before pregnancy.  It can go either way - sin or salvation.   

Maybe I should take advantage of your being a Bible scholar.  You could give commentary on the statement of Jesus for starters:  "for whoever would save his life will lose it and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.."  Do you want to expand on that?  

 

 

 

 

 


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EVER HEAR OF PREGNANCY JCGADFLY?

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

So you concede the point that no one can be saved according to you?

You've not mentioned it yet - how is it possible to meet your requirement of having God's salvation before one can receive it?

 

JcGadfly,

 

I don't concede any of your points. 

Those who believe in Jesus will be saved.  Those who don't believe in Him will be lost.

If you are lost it will be your own fault.  If you are saved it will be all to God's glory. 

 

 

 

 

Funny that - I'm asking you to agree with your points. Shame you still can't do it.

You say that one needs faith before coming to God - you also claim that God will give a person that faith.

So do you come to god with faith or do you sit on your butt and let God give you that faith?

Once again, do you need to be a christian before you become a Christian (as you claim) or do you start with nothing and initiate the relationship with god?

Either way god needs you more than you need him.

 

 

 

JcGadfly,

 

God provides what faith you need to come to Christ.  Your part is not resisting the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 

Sin is described in a similar way - evil desire is conceived and gives birth to sin.  Yielding to the guidance of the Holy Spirit leads to the new birth in Christ.  Pregnancy before birth, JcGadfly.  Conception before pregnancy.  It can go either way - sin or salvation.   

Maybe I should take advantage of your being a Bible scholar.  You could give commentary on the statement of Jesus for starters:  "for whoever would save his life will lose it and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.."  Do you want to expand on that?  

 

 

 

 

 


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

So you concede the point that no one can be saved according to you?

You've not mentioned it yet - how is it possible to meet your requirement of having God's salvation before one can receive it?

 

JcGadfly,

 

I don't concede any of your points. 

Those who believe in Jesus will be saved.  Those who don't believe in Him will be lost.

If you are lost it will be your own fault.  If you are saved it will be all to God's glory. 

 

 

 

 

Funny that - I'm asking you to agree with your points. Shame you still can't do it.

You say that one needs faith before coming to God - you also claim that God will give a person that faith.

So do you come to god with faith or do you sit on your butt and let God give you that faith?

Once again, do you need to be a christian before you become a Christian (as you claim) or do you start with nothing and initiate the relationship with god?

Either way god needs you more than you need him.

 

 

 

JcGadfly,

 

God provides what faith you need to come to Christ.  Your part is not resisting the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 

Sin is described in a similar way - evil desire is conceived and gives birth to sin.  Yielding to the guidance of the Holy Spirit leads to the new birth in Christ.  Pregnancy before birth, JcGadfly.  Conception before pregnancy.  It can go either way - sin or salvation.   

Maybe I should take advantage of your being a Bible scholar.  You could give commentary on the statement of Jesus for starters:  "for whoever would save his life will lose it and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.."  Do you want to expand on that?  

 

 

 

 

 

1. So God does need you more than you need him? There is no "I believe that God will save my soul" because God has to grant me that belief beforehand? More "You have to have a relationship with God before you can have a relationship with God"? If I have to be a Christian before I can accept Christ why bother?

2. Why do you speak of what no longer applies to you - Where there is no law, there is no sin", remember?

3, Never said i was a scholar - just that you made me look like one with your cherry picking of scripture.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Fonzie wrote:  Your part

Fonzie wrote:
  Your part is not resisting the guidance of the Holy Spirit.  

Translation: your part is to unquestioningly accept an emotionally-induced religious experience as if it were something more than culturally-dependent brainwashing.

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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SPIRIT VERSUS EMOTION

NoDeity wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
  Your part is not resisting the guidance of the Holy Spirit.  

Translation: your part is to unquestioningly accept an emotionally-induced religious experience as if it were something more than culturally-dependent brainwashing.


NoDeity,

I can see how this view could be held by you and reinforced by examples you see - I believe there are examples of this I have seen. 

However; I see a very different and real life and light and electricity at work in me.  The lights are on also to see emotion - bad and good, foggy and clear cut.  My experience with emotion is that it has a short half-life.  The intense emotion I remember coming out of a movie was pretty well totally gone within 3 days.  The Holy Spirit alive within me, training, disciplining, inspiring yet humbling with a real view of who's who and what's what - this is different, it has gone on over 45 years and is still advancing within me.  Your view from unbelief though seems understandable to me. 

Things I don't have faith in get fed too - man's arrogant ideas trying to do his impression of God.  I see more and more the folly of it. 

The guidance of the Holy Spirit isn't a starting place for those outside Christ anyway - as I have been saying in the discussion with JcGadfly.  The Door is Christ.  "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest".  That's the good news to those weary and heavy laden - but to those who think they don't need God it's not seen as a door of escape.  The Devil convinces them of several untruths about the Way, the Truth and the Life.  I would say with Christ, "Father forgive, they know not what they do".  I have to wonder if some do know what they do however, though it's not a thing I could judge.  I think the person themselves could see it clear enough to see it they are being honest in considering Jesus.  But if a person is rejecting Jesus knowing He is the Son of God - there I think you have your blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (my understanding anyway, I could be wrong). 



"He has showed you O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?"  (God)

 

 

 


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Would you agree that what

Would you agree that what you think of as "the guidance of the Holy Spirit" is a subjective experience?  If so, do you understand that the longevity of that subjective experience doesn't turn it into testable evidence?

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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"Things I don't have faith

"Things I don't have faith in get fed too - man's arrogant ideas trying to do his impression of God.  I see more and more the folly of it. "

Good. I look forward to you not doing it any more.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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SUBJECTIVE OR SPIRITUAL

NoDeity wrote:

Would you agree that what you think of as "the guidance of the Holy Spirit" is a subjective experience?  If so, do you understand that the longevity of that subjective experience doesn't turn it into testable evidence?

 

NoDeity,

I think I understand and appreciate the reasonableness of your question from your side.  It is a subjective experience in the sense that it is in the inner man, thoughts, purposes of the heart; yet after years of experiencing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - the refreshing stream of strength, the coach-like discipline, the enlightening and direction, all which match up with what the Word of God cracks it up to be, I would refer to it as a "spiritual experience" rather than "subjective". 

I understand the insightful question of longivity - not in itself - putting the stamp of credibility on what I am sharing; however this is not the only evidence.  Jesus crucified, raising from the dead with the same power at work within me, dying for my sins, my sins washed away, all things made new, Christ in me trampling the power of sin underfoot, delivering me from the discouraging power, the fascinating power, the rewind video power, the corrupting power of sin, giving me the power to be born again in Him and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit and being able to walk humbly with God.  Seeing all of this happen in harmony in harmony with what I read with new areas opening up continually in the Word of God, having prayers answered - it's all one. 

It's most subjective trying to describe it to you.  It grows out of faith in Christ which is a seed I can't produce in you or prove - but neither can I deny the experience which is most real in me.  

 

 

He who is sated loathes honey but to him who is hungry everything bitter is sweet.


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jcgadfly wrote:"Things I

jcgadfly wrote:

"Things I don't have faith in get fed too - man's arrogant ideas trying to do his impression of God.  I see more and more the folly of it. "

Good. I look forward to you not doing it any more.

 

JcGadfly,

I'd need a lot of "reverb" if I ever tried that  Eye-wink


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butterbattle wrote:How did

butterbattle wrote:

How did Jonah survive in the belly of the fish?

Fonzie wrote:
 

butterbattle,

Jonah survived in the belly of the fish by the power of the One Who made the fish, Jonah, water, land, trees, electrons and coffee.  By things He created and holds together we survive just like Jonah - only not in the belly of a fish but on the surface of a ball floating in space.

Okay, I'll be more specific.

What did God do to protect Jonah from the fish's stomach acids? 

Fonzie wrote:
If you think the gospel of God is only one of many revelations, try the exercise of reading other pretended revelations such as the Koran or Book of Mormon.  You would have to work at it to not laughing if you have any spiritual discernment. 

Oh, I've read the entire Book of Mormon, and I've read parts of the Koran. In terms of morals, I'd say they're both better than the Old Testament, but the New Testament is better than both of them, although I suppose all bets are off if you include Revelations. The Book of Mormon is probably the most accurate in terms of science, but it's not really a fair comparison since it was written in America in the 1800s. Joseph Smith really screwed up the history of North America though.  

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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A question of values

Fonzie wrote:

It's most subjective trying to describe it to you.  It grows out of faith in Christ which is a seed I can't produce in you or prove - but neither can I deny the experience which is most real in me. 

As is almost always the case, I think this comes down to values. 

I value reason and scientific methods of investigation because they have repeatedly been shown to be the most effective means of distinguishing between reality and nonsense and they are the most effective means of improving humanity's lot on this world.  They are our best shot at something better than an existence that Hobbes described as "nasty, brutish, and short".

It used to be that if you wanted to have three kids, you'd better have five because you could expect two of them to die.  It used to be that if a man wanted to have children, he could reasonably expect to marry more than once because he was likely to lose at least one wife in childbirth.  Modern agriculture has made it possible to feed all the billions of humans that inhabit this world (look up Norman Borlaug).  What made the difference?  Not faith, not prayer, not meditation or homeopathy or chiropractic or personally meaningful subjective experiences with a supposed deity.  No, it was science and reason that made the death of a child or a woman in childbirth so rare that they are surprising when they occur in societies which have benefited form such disciplines.

Leaving aside for a moment the question of whether or not God/Christ is real, what do you see as the practical benefits of faith?  What values are fulfilled by your beliefs?

 

 

 

 

 

Reality is the graveyard of the gods.


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Fonzie wrote:jcgadfly

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

"Things I don't have faith in get fed too - man's arrogant ideas trying to do his impression of God.  I see more and more the folly of it. "

Good. I look forward to you not doing it any more.

 

JcGadfly,

I'd need a lot of "reverb" if I ever tried that  Eye-wink

OK - you lose on the vocals but you make up for it in mannerisms and characterization.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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VARIOUS UNKNOWNS

butterbattle wrote:

butterbattle wrote:

How did Jonah survive in the belly of the fish?

Fonzie wrote:
 

butterbattle,

Jonah survived in the belly of the fish by the power of the One Who made the fish, Jonah, water, land, trees, electrons and coffee.  By things He created and holds together we survive just like Jonah - only not in the belly of a fish but on the surface of a ball floating in space.

Okay, I'll be more specific.

What did God do to protect Jonah from the fish's stomach acids?

 

 

Butterbattle,

This is one of those things not revealed to us.  A neat thing about real faith in God is that what we need to know has been revealed.  Job suffered several things but it looks like the reason for the ordeal was never revealed to him - and it appears that he was ok with that in the end.  Those of us that believe in Jesus would love to have more details about His life from age 12 to 30 but I accept that it's nothing I need to know.  I have read speculation about the fish's stomach acid bleaching Jonah white, but that's just interesting speculation.  We could ask the same types of questions about how Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego survived the firey furnace scientifically and also had no burnt smell.  We don't know.  Faith in the One Who has shown how much He loves us, to the point of giving His only Begotten Son to be the Lamb of God sacrificed for our sins is enough to logically not require all our questions to be answered.  That, again,  is the Door to our walking with God -  faith in Jesus and His willing atoning death -  the Door to our walking by faith, the power of the gospel is a response to that redeeming love.  

 

 

"It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.  As the heavens for height and the earth for depth so the mind of kings is unsearchable."  God

 

 

 

 


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NoDeity wrote:Fonzie wrote:

NoDeity wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

It's most subjective trying to describe it to you.  It grows out of faith in Christ which is a seed I can't produce in you or prove - but neither can I deny the experience which is most real in me. 

As is almost always the case, I think this comes down to values. 

I value reason and scientific methods of investigation because they have repeatedly been shown to be the most effective means of distinguishing between reality and nonsense and they are the most effective means of improving humanity's lot on this world.  They are our best shot at something better than an existence that Hobbes described as "nasty, brutish, and short".

It used to be that if you wanted to have three kids, you'd better have five because you could expect two of them to die.  It used to be that if a man wanted to have children, he could reasonably expect to marry more than once because he was likely to lose at least one wife in childbirth.  Modern agriculture has made it possible to feed all the billions of humans that inhabit this world (look up Norman Borlaug).  What made the difference?  Not faith, not prayer, not meditation or homeopathy or chiropractic or personally meaningful subjective experiences with a supposed deity.  No, it was science and reason that made the death of a child or a woman in childbirth so rare that they are surprising when they occur in societies which have benefited form such disciplines.

Leaving aside for a moment the question of whether or not God/Christ is real, what do you see as the practical benefits of faith?  What values are fulfilled by your beliefs?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NoDeity,

I have a different perspective on science than you do - a lot less faith in it.  From my perspective science changes but the true gospel doesn't.  Science gets infiltrated with political desires and entrenched interests so that when the first guy came along and said there was such a thing as germs causing the birth problems he was disbarred and later put in an asylum.  Why didn't the scientists just accept the reproducible data instead of protecting their proud position?  What about the global warming fiasco?  Is it science or politics?  Do they really know what they want us to accept?  Why did they corrupt the data? 

But anyway the guy that helped bring about progress in the baby survival rate was thrown in the nut house by his fellow scientists to show their appreciation.  That's your smooth road of reason and science.  Maybe you think that today there are not men who would do underhanded scientific things for money?  Reason would say there are.  Reason would say there are doctors that would do things for money that don't need to be done. 

Which brings me back to faith in God.  Ignoring all the "faith professors" in the ditch who spun out on faith's road - the ONE we have faith in is PERFECT.  There is no flaw in the Sacrifice - Jesus is perfect and unchanging. 

I am not pushing "faith in faith" - so what I am presenting is not the benefits of "faith" in itself - but "faith in God".  Faith is the light and eyes which enable us to see God and His Son lifted up.  Faith is the light that enables us to see the wonders in the depths and heights of the spiritual riches in Christ. 

Faith enables us to see and solve the most fundamental problem of man - the sin that is between us and communion with God - the communion we lost in Adam and Eve in the Garden because of sin.  And we have been separated from our God ever since - until Jesus paid the price for the debt we owed, which we could never have paid.  Faith is a gift that God gives us to get this done, to get this out of the way and thus God draws us near, writes His law (not on stone as in the first Pentecost after the Israelites' baptism through the Red Sea) He writes His law on our hearts.  God comes near to us now with sin out of the way and we are enabled through faith to have communion with God and walk humbly with God.  This fellowship with God helps us in all areas of life. 

When there is a trial, faith in the Word of God tells us that it can work for good, so we accept it as exactly what we need from the God Who loves us and try to get the most out of it. 

The closer we get to God the more reason we see we have to be humble, because the more we see ourselves as we are.  We are, like Abraham described himself when in the presence of God, "but dust and ashes" - BUT we have "Christ in us - the hope of glory".  We have the Holy Spirit in us - the down payment of our inheritance which we don't have to give back.  We have God Himself in us, we have fellowship with God.  This is all very uplifting and encouraging.  We know through faith in God that "God hears us" - this helps us wait for things we haven't received yet. 

Faith enables us to see the unseen eternal things and focus on them in Christ.  We are not putting all our energy into things that are temporary - trying to make our own heaven on this earth.  Faith in God delivers us from such folly. 

Faith in Christ enables us to do things for the right reason - to glorify Him rather than ourselves.  Faith lights up the battlefield so we can see what the Devil is trying to do and be on guard against it.  Faith enables us to suit up in armor then clothe it all in humility so there is no helmet glitter. 

How can your science produce a "climate of trust"?  True faith in God can.  In our church, those "born again" into Christ - we have the "body of Christ" and we have fellowship with each other that is closer than any other on earth and a climate of trust. 

 

"Happy is the man who finds wisdom, and the man who gets understanding, for the gain from it is better than gain from silver and its profit better than gold.  She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her.  Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor.  Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.  She is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her;  those who hold her fast are called happy."  (God)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Funny how you discuss people

Funny how you discuss people who would corrupt science for money and completely ignore those who sell God.

Do those guys do good (no matter who gets hurt) because they work for your boy?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin