It works for me!

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It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:Hi

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

Hi Fonzie, guess what, okay, I'll tell ya .... I am jesus .... yup, me, no shit ....

 

 

You don't quack right for a duck.


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darth_josh wrote:I gather

darth_josh wrote:

I gather that you believe because it makes you feel good in some ways. Can you tell me any ways in which believing in jesus makes you feel bad? Is it always 100% good?

Believing in Jesus makes me feel bad when I get off focus and try to please men rather than Him.  I then experience discipline from grieving the Holy Spirit; but that turns out to be good.  The pain causes me to return to the path I want to be on - focused on Jesus.

darth_josh wrote:

 

You're exemplifying the purpose of this site. We're here to ask and answer questions too. What were any preconceptions of yours when you were directed here? 

I had preconceptions that it is a sport to you to mock God.

 

 

darth_josh wrote:

My questions are: What do you want? Why do you feel that we can 'offer' you something that you could not get by your own hand or mind?

You can offer me something better than what I've seen for the most part so far which I would characterize as reactions with prejudice about Jesus and Christians and faith in God.

I would like to have a reasonable and rational discussion where you honestly and openly tell me what is in your heart and makes you tick happily along as an atheist.  I don't comprehend it. 

 

 

 


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Vastet wrote: Don't take

Vastet wrote:

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but everything here is about you. Very self centred argument, when god is supposed to promote selflessness. What about those around you? Has your faith ever hurt someone else? If it has, then you have no justification for keeping it.

I introduced myself.  I didn't know anything about you. 

I'm sure my misunderstandings of faith have hurt people along the way - the right representation of faith in Christ wouldn't.  You couldn't judge by the reaction either since they crucified Jesus without cause.  Has your lack of faith or faith that there is no God ever hurt anybody? 

 

Since when I say, "I believe in Jesus" there appears to be automatic lack of faith in me from atheists (speaking generally) I would make the point that faith in people comes into play just in conversation and discussing ideas.  If you have zero faith in me and have written me totally off what makes that rational?  How can we discuss anything? 

 


 


 


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Vastet wrote: What could 

Vastet wrote:

 


What could  be better than religion? Reality.

My understanding of reality is from the Scriptures.  The things that we see will be destroyed.  The unseen spiritual world will remain - along with our souls.  If this is true, the thing that lasts the longest is the real reality - right?


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Proper Gander wrote: How

Proper Gander wrote:

 

How good for you!

Ok, I can see you are smarter than me and better in every way.  That's ok with me. 

Proper Gander wrote:

I'm truly sorry to hear that.

Ok, I'll accept that you are sorry.  Accept from me that there is no reason to be sorry because I have the navigation and am happily using it.

Proper Gander wrote:

For what it's worth, we don't have a gospel - what "we" offer is freedom from it! Freedom of thought, freedom to think for yourself without having to resort to the opinions of dead, ancient shepherds. Oh, and guess what? I'm happy too, and wouldn't want to switch shoes with you even if my life so depended on it.

So you are like one of the pioneers, coming to America, exploring the new land for themselves, finding their own way, making a new life for themselves.

The pioneers had to spend almost every spare moment doing things to sustain life, like chopping wood, getting ready for winter.  They didn't have much spare time in their quest for their new life.  You might run out of time before you find it. 


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Oh the problem with this thinking

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

 

 

What could  be better than religion? Reality.

My understanding of reality is from the Scriptures.  The things that we see will be destroyed.  The unseen spiritual world will remain - along with our souls.  If this is true, the thing that lasts the longest is the real reality - right?

Here is the major problem, there is zero evidence of a unseen spiritual world, there is no evidence of life after death, and there is zero evidence of another reality other than this one that we experience. Scriptures is just another work of fiction, it has it's deities, it has it's hero's, villans, those suffering, vengences and various other literature works that is found throughout the mythology of every civilization. The difference is that you believe this to be true, yet most likely don't believe in the mythology of other cultures, for example, Japanese mythology, or Norse, Egyptian, Greek etc, etc, etc. So you are going on ZERO evidence that any of this is true, living a life of a lie, and would like others to follow your step? (this is part of being a christian spreading the word and saving poor souls.)  Going on the possiblity that it is true, why deny the possiblity of every other religion being false, after all they all have the exact same amount of possiblity of being true, since they all have the same requirement in the end, faith that their religious beliefs are true.


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Fonzie wrote:I AM GOD AS YOU

Fonzie wrote:

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

Hi Fonzie, guess what, okay, I'll tell ya .... I am jesus .... yup, me, no shit ....

 

 

You don't quack right for a duck.

I'm sorry, I understand ....  Your Jesus is a bible Pauline quack, an antichrist concept, as you are a separatists dogmatic idol worshiper. That Jesus has many hash words for you. To know the Jesus message is to know you are the same as Jesus, as we are all of the nature of g-o-d , the father mother cosmos. My sympathy too you, but I am glad you are searching. I recommend you search again within, as to do your 40 days alone, as story jesus and buddha did. 

From a caring teacher friend of humanity, cool Alan Watts,

"The religion of Jesus was that he knew he was a son of God, and the phrase "son of " means "of the nature of," so that a son of God is an individual who realizes that he is, and always has been, one with God. "I and the Father are one." .......... and,  "Let this mind be in you." that is to say, let the same kind of [rational] consciousness be in you that was in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ knew he was God." [ you and all are christ too, 100% god too ]

"Wake up" [said a buddha] and find out eventually who you also really are [ god ]. In our culture of course, they'll say you're crazy or you're blasphemous, and they'll either put you in jail or in the nut house (which is the same thing). But if you wake up in India and tell your friends and relations, "My goodness, I've just discovered that I'm God," they'll laugh and say, "Oh, congratulations, at last you found out." ~ Alan Watts , and he can be found on Youtube etc. ~~~~~~

  You're deeply in the spell of wrong thinking of self/god separation idol worship. The simple "good word", as story buddha like Jesus tried to say is, All is ONE. You must challenge the devil, your enemy within. Good luck to you. May the great mentor, story jesus reach you yet. Abandon all religious folklore attached hocus pocus superstition ....

Use your own wisest, honest, wisdom mind. Incorporate the good traits you find in others for yourself, but accept no Master, No Idol, as you are 100% One with g-o-d, the unknowable ALL, the vast eternal infinite Oneness. Awesome it is ....    LOL     

Neale Donald Walsch - Who is God - 5 min

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCeSlAvzvCQ

Carl Sagan - "Pale Blue Dot" , 3 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M

       G AWE D !   WOW indeed !   Don't make shit up.

Science studies gawed, Philosophy summarizes, Religion spins. 

  Jesus no like religion .... smash the church .... GO go freedom fighter Jesus, fuck Saul Paul and such christianity. No more DOGMA , No Idols, No Masters, No Quacks

    FUCK ALL IDOLS , christians are brainwashed terrorists , HELL is XANITY ....

 In religious terms, the devil, satan, demon, is wrong thinking rampant in religious  idol worship separatism. Jesus is considered as one of the greatest exorcists. The mistake is to replace your cast out demons (fear, greed, separatism), with a jesus idol, of Pauline christian design. The organized church is often and correctly said to be teaching the AntiChrist doctrine of wrong thinking ... (((   the "devil" !!!! )))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism#Exorcism_in_Christianity

Atheists for Jesus -   http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com/

 


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Fonzie wrote:Could I

Fonzie wrote:
Could I rationally say I "know" anything about you?  Is it logical for you to say you "know" anything about me?
Yes, you could quite rationally know that I have no belief in a god or gods. Just as I can rationally know you have a belief in god. We've both told one another about that.

I can also rationally know that you're fooling yourself, as there isn't any evidence for a god or gods - something you would know if you understood how to think critically and use skeptical inquiry.

Fonzie wrote:
Jillswift, one reason they crucified Jesus was that He wasn't political.
Assuming there was a historical Jesus at all, they certainly did execute him for his politics. How can you claim he wasn't being political when he went on and on about who was "Lord"? That would clearly tweak the sensibilities of those who held political power. Especially those in a tenuous position, like the Pharisees.

Fonzie wrote:
And can I logically blame you for what other atheists do?
Were I to stand by without so much as a quiet protest as others trampled on your rights, yes you could blame me for my "sin of omission" (as it were). Just as I blame every moderate Christian in the world for enabling the crazy fundamentalists. Just as I blame every moderate Muslim in the world for enabling the whacked-out morons who try to make Sharia law the law of the land or strap explosive to their bodies and murder "kafir".

Alos: it's "JillSwift" as in Jillian Swift. Not Jillswift.

And: Are we going to have to wait another two weeks for your replies?

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Fonzie wrote: There's good

Fonzie wrote:
There's good humor in that and it illustrates a misunderstanding of scripture that is easy to fall into.  But you also illustrate something I would love - to have the whole Bible inhaled into my heart and mind and spirit at once, and held.  I once envied the capacity to memorize large amounts of Scripture.  I don't have that capacity.
Is it just me, or is this a little bit creepy?

I heard another person say a very similar thing about another topic. They went on and on about how wonderful it would be to be steeped in the words, images and ideals they held in such high reguard.

I found their version much creepier because they were referring to "Star Trek".

Fandom can lead to some serious irrationality.

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Fonzie wrote:My

Fonzie wrote:

My understanding of reality is from the Scriptures.

 

Which make your observations all the more suspect

Fonzie wrote:
The things that we see will be destroyed.

Yes, Jesus is sharpening his sword even as we speak...

Fonzie wrote:
The unseen spiritual world will remain - along with our souls.

Any Proof ? 

Fonzie wrote:

If this is true, the thing that lasts the longest is the real reality - right?

 

Reality is what it is...

{fixed aiia}


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Fonzie wrote:So you are like

Fonzie wrote:

So you are like one of the pioneers, coming to America, exploring the new land for themselves, finding their own way, making a new life for themselves.

The pioneers had to spend almost every spare moment doing things to sustain life, like chopping wood, getting ready for winter.  They didn't have much spare time in their quest for their new life.  You might run out of time before you find it. 

Ok. That's a new one. I don't think I've ever seen a 'false analogy strawman metaphor' before.

 

Fonzie wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

I gather that you believe because it makes you feel good in some ways. Can you tell me any ways in which believing in jesus makes you feel bad? Is it always 100% good?

Believing in Jesus makes me feel bad when I get off focus and try to please men rather than Him.  I then experience discipline from grieving the Holy Spirit; but that turns out to be good.  The pain causes me to return to the path I want to be on - focused on Jesus.

I'll reword the question, if you don't mind?

Have you denied yourself something you felt was important based upon your belief?

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:
 

You're exemplifying the purpose of this site. We're here to ask and answer questions too. What were any preconceptions of yours when you were directed here? 

I had preconceptions that it is a sport to you to mock God.

 

I have denied the existence of the holy spirit based upon lack of evidence and the perceived inherent harm in the belief of god(s).

In other words, I lack belief in god(s) and I fear the believers.

Do you consider all humor directed at something to be 'sport' or would you say that I discriminate prejudicially.

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:

My questions are: What do you want? Why do you feel that we can 'offer' you something that you could not get by your own hand or mind?

You can offer me something better than what I've seen for the most part so far which I would characterize as reactions with prejudice about Jesus and Christians and faith in God.

I think it's important to note that by my count, we react towards those three things in wholly different manners based upon the individual.

For a general assessment of what I do/do not believe, I will give you my response to the accusation of prejudice.

JESUS

I don't believe Jesus ever existed. I have seen no evidence to support the claim of his existence let alone his divinity. I find a great deal of fault with the teachings ascribed to 'him' including the beatitudes.

CHRISTIANS

By virtue of my environs, I cannot have too much prejudice against christians until I meet them individually. One would not be able to function in this society with any level of success if they were to be instantly dismissive of an entire ideology.

With that said, I hope that statement makes sense to you as well if I change 'christians' to 'atheists'.

FAITH IN GOD

Yes. I freely admit that as soon as someone mentions theism it piques my senses. For years after I became an atheist, I was very curious when someone presented an argument in favor of belief. I think I still am.

Please remember, my first question will always be: "Which god?" followed by: "Why that one instead of all the others?" If that counts as prejudice then I am guilty in your eyes, but justified in mine own and others.

At this point in my life, the very best argument I have ever heard is that theism is a mind disorder. As such, my compassion for the 'faithful' is at an all-time high. However, my cheeks take a very long time to heal and do not turn easily.

 

Quote:
I would like to have a reasonable and rational discussion where you honestly and openly tell me what is in your heart and makes you tick happily along as an atheist.  I don't comprehend it.

My heart has blood and tissue. lol. Sorry that was too open. I understand your metaphor.

Primarily. I don't have to live my life under fear of eternal punishment for a lifetime's finite sin. I am free to ask questions as to whether or not there really is a god without worrying about the answers. That is what living without religious 'faith' has done for me.

Secondly, I'm not as inclined to tell others they are wrong with regard to the way they have chosen to live their lives. Often in sermons, preachers will use the alleged bad examples of 'creation' to extoll the virtues of their faith. They (the preachers I've heard and that's no small number) want to 'help' the allegedly lost 'souls' as if they have the ONLY way to live and by definition that is prejudice. Incidentally, I have this exact problem with MANY of those whom espouse 'humanism' rather than just base atheism.

Thirdly, skepticism. Plain and simple. Not only has it protected me from being abused by the 'evil' parts of our world, but it has granted a wealth of knowledge on many a divers issue. The simple act of questioning one important time makes it much easier to do so the next time and so forth.

Would you concur that those three things are different in your life as a current believer?

 

 

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Fonzie wrote:magilum

Fonzie wrote:

magilum wrote:

One of the fundamental differences in our thinking appears to be your satisfaction, if not comfort, in there being mysteries. As though there were this kernel of something that would be destroyed by scrutiny. I think it's because if faith were to be articulated, we would find that at its heart it is ultimately an assertion which we can't satisfactorily justify. And when we frame it this way, as we frame almost everything else in our lives, it feels threatening to our happiness and well-being. Is this good or bad for us? I don't know. My way of thinking is that the more mysteries I unravel the more I can justify what I believe in, because I can explain things. What I'm left with is a much more robust philosophy that I don't have to guard under the auspices of "mystery."

I appreciate your reasonable statement.  There are mysteries in life for all of us.  I also am trying to unravel every mystery I can.  Here is why I am not concerned about living with the type of mystery I mentioned:  If a Man died for me I accept the fact that He loves me and is my friend.  If He does and says things that are a mystery to me I can live with that while I try to understand why.

And where do your answers come from?


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I'm apparently going to have

I'm apparently going to have to pay more attention to pages past. I hadn't noticed this was responded to.

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but everything here is about you. Very self centred argument, when god is supposed to promote selflessness. What about those around you? Has your faith ever hurt someone else? If it has, then you have no justification for keeping it.

I introduced myself.  I didn't know anything about you. 

I'm sure my misunderstandings of faith have hurt people along the way - the right representation of faith in Christ wouldn't.

This is an assertion. If a "right" representation of faith in christ wouldn't, then why didn't your god include the "right" representation within the books and scriptures of the religion?

Fonzie wrote:
  You couldn't judge by the reaction either since they crucified Jesus without cause.  Has your lack of faith or faith that there is no God ever hurt anybody? 

Only in the possible circumstances where this alleged person(s) challenged my beliefs and attempted to hurt me. I hold to a strict moral code of treating others as I like to be treated. I, however, have a capacity to suspend this moral code in the face of those who do not share it, or who cross it. If someone hurts me, I will hurt them back. I will not, however, begin the conflict. I let them come to me. So if I have hurt anyone through my lack of belief, it was their own fault for starting such a conversation. In your case, you are encouraged to start such conflicts, making you a perpetrator; and not a victim.

 

Fonzie wrote:
Since when I say, "I believe in Jesus" there appears to be automatic lack of faith in me from atheists (speaking generally) I would make the point that faith in people comes into play just in conversation and discussing ideas.  If you have zero faith in me and have written me totally off what makes that rational?  How can we discuss anything? 

Why must I have faith in you to have a discussion with you? I have "faith" that you "exist" in some capacity that allows you to communicate with me on certain levels. That's the limit of the faith I extend to someone I do not now.

On another point, you realize that merely by saying "I believe in jesus", you are challenging those around you to agree or disagree with you, right? Simply saying the words prompts others around you to agree with you, unless you are surrounded by those who do not agree with you.


 

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

 


 

What could  be better than religion? Reality.

My understanding of reality is from the Scriptures.  The things that we see will be destroyed.  The unseen spiritual world will remain - along with our souls.  If this is true, the thing that lasts the longest is the real reality - right?

Then your understanding is flawed horribly. The scriptures were written centuries ago by ignorant and primitive war mongers. What makes them valid? Nothing.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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latincanuck wrote: Here is

latincanuck wrote:

 

Here is the major problem, there is zero evidence of a unseen spiritual world, there is no evidence of life after death, and there is zero evidence of another reality other than this one that we experience.

You can't see honesty but it exists if you discern it.

latincanuck wrote:

Scriptures is just another work of fiction, it has it's deities, it has it's hero's, villans, those suffering, vengences and various other literature works that is found throughout the mythology of every civilization. The difference is that you believe this to be true, yet most likely don't believe in the mythology of other cultures, for example, Japanese mythology, or Norse, Egyptian, Greek etc, etc, etc. So you are going on ZERO evidence that any of this is true, living a life of a lie, and would like others to follow your step? (this is part of being a christian spreading the word and saving poor souls.)

 

True, men consider certain Gods.  After experiencing Jesus no others have inerested me.

 

latincanuck wrote:
  Going on the possiblity that it is true, why deny the possiblity of every other religion being false, after all they all have the exact same amount of possiblity of being true, since they all have the same requirement in the end, faith that their religious beliefs are true.

I have experimented and come to my conclusion.

 {fixed learn how to use the quote codes correctly aiia}

 

 


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:Fonzie

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

Hi Fonzie, guess what, okay, I'll tell ya .... I am jesus .... yup, me, no shit ....

 

 

You don't quack right for a duck.

I'm sorry, I understand ....  Your Jesus is a bible Pauline quack, an antichrist concept, as you are a separatists dogmatic idol worshiper. That Jesus has many hash words for you. To know the Jesus message is to know you are the same as Jesus, as we are all of the nature of g-o-d , the father mother cosmos. My sympathy too you, but I am glad you are searching. I recommend you search again within, as to do your 40 days alone, as story jesus and buddha did. 

From a caring teacher friend of humanity, cool Alan Watts,

"The religion of Jesus was that he knew he was a son of God, and the phrase "son of " means "of the nature of," so that a son of God is an individual who realizes that he is, and always has been, one with God. "I and the Father are one." .......... and,  "Let this mind be in you." that is to say, let the same kind of [rational] consciousness be in you that was in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ knew he was God." [ you and all are christ too, 100% god too ]

"Wake up" [said a buddha] and find out eventually who you also really are [ god ]. In our culture of course, they'll say you're crazy or you're blasphemous, and they'll either put you in jail or in the nut house (which is the same thing). But if you wake up in India and tell your friends and relations, "My goodness, I've just discovered that I'm God," they'll laugh and say, "Oh, congratulations, at last you found out." ~ Alan Watts , and he can be found on Youtube etc. ~~~~~~

  You're deeply in the spell of wrong thinking of self/god separation idol worship. The simple "good word", as story buddha like Jesus tried to say is, All is ONE. You must challenge the devil, your enemy within. Good luck to you. May the great mentor, story jesus reach you yet. Abandon all religious folklore attached hocus pocus superstition ....

Use your own wisest, honest, wisdom mind. Incorporate the good traits you find in others for yourself, but accept no Master, No Idol, as you are 100% One with g-o-d, the unknowable ALL, the vast eternal infinite Oneness. Awesome it is ....    LOL     

Neale Donald Walsch - Who is God - 5 min

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCeSlAvzvCQ

Carl Sagan - "Pale Blue Dot" , 3 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M

       G AWE D !   WOW indeed !   Don't make shit up.

Science studies gawed, Philosophy summarizes, Religion spins. 

  Jesus no like religion .... smash the church .... GO go freedom fighter Jesus, fuck Saul Paul and such christianity. No more DOGMA , No Idols, No Masters, No Quacks

    FUCK ALL IDOLS , christians are brainwashed terrorists , HELL is XANITY ....

 In religious terms, the devil, satan, demon, is wrong thinking rampant in religious  idol worship separatism. Jesus is considered as one of the greatest exorcists. The mistake is to replace your cast out demons (fear, greed, separatism), with a jesus idol, of Pauline christian design. The organized church is often and correctly said to be teaching the AntiChrist doctrine of wrong thinking ... (((   the "devil" !!!! )))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism#Exorcism_in_Christianity

Atheists for Jesus -   http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sir or Madam, I have no idea how to answer since - I don't understand your perspective, premise or application.  

 

 

  {fixed [learn how to use the quote codes correctly] aiia}


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JillSwift wrote:Fonzie

JillSwift wrote:

Fonzie wrote:
Could I rationally say I "know" anything about you?  Is it logical for you to say you "know" anything about me?
Yes, you could quite rationally know that I have no belief in a god or gods. Just as I can rationally know you have a belief in god. We've both told one another about that.

I can also rationally know that you're fooling yourself, as there isn't any evidence for a god or gods - something you would know if you understood how to think critically and use skeptical inquiry.

 

You must have faith in something to be so confident. 

 

JillSwift wrote:
Assuming there was a historical Jesus at all, they certainly did execute him for his politics. How can you claim he wasn't being political when he went on and on about who was "Lord"? That would clearly tweak the sensibilities of those who held political power. Especially those in a tenuous position, like the Pharisees.

 

Jesus was misrepresented but His Words were "My Kingdom is not of this world".  His actions bore that out. 

JillSwift wrote:
Were I to stand by without so much as a quiet protest as others trampled on your rights, yes you could blame me for my "sin of omission" (as it were).

Well I guess you can be blamed then.  There are thousands of atheists you can't control. 

 

JillSwift wrote:
Just as I blame every moderate Christian in the world for enabling the crazy fundamentalists. Just as I blame every moderate Muslim in the world for enabling the whacked-out morons who try to make Sharia law the law of the land or strap explosive to their bodies and murder "kafir".

 

Blaming will keep you in work for sure, Jill Swift.

JillSwift wrote:

Alos: it's "JillSwift" as in Jillian Swift. Not Jillswift.

Got it! 

JillSwift wrote:

And: Are we going to have to wait another two weeks for your replies?

  I never said I was fast. 

 {fixed [learn how to use the quote codes correctly] aiia} 

 

 


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JillSwift wrote:Is it just

JillSwift wrote:

Is it just me, or is this a little bit creepy? 

 Save "creepy" for guys that murder nurses in Chicago.

JillSwift wrote:

I heard another person say a very similar thing about another topic. They went on and on about how wonderful it would be to be steeped in the words, images and ideals they held in such high reguard.

I found their version much creepier because they were referring to "Star Trek".

Fandom can lead to some serious irrationality.

 

 

  The definition of irrationality brings us back to the identity of our God.

 {fixed [learn how to use the quote codes correctly] aiia}

 


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Which

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Which make your observations all the more suspect

 

  You circle me with a distrustful eye. 

 

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Yes, Jesus is sharpening his sword even as we speak...

His sword is already sharper than any. 

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Any Proof ?

Has anybody died that still inspires you?

ProzacDeathWish wrote:


 

Reality is what it is...

  That's just a dismissive limerick.


 

  {fixed [learn how to use the quote codes correctly] aiia}


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magilum wrote:And where do

magilum wrote:

And where do your answers come from?

 

My answers come from the battle of faith.  My wounds and victories season me. 

 

  {fixed [learn how to use the quote codes correctly] aiia}

 


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Hi Fonzie. I've skimmed the

Hi Fonzie. I've skimmed the thread and you seem like a very loving and friendly person. Good on you, for that.

Fonzie wrote:
Believing in Jesus makes me feel bad when I get off focus and try to please men rather than Him.  I then experience discipline from grieving the Holy Spirit; but that turns out to be good.  The pain causes me to return to the path I want to be on - focused on Jesus.
This statement makes me very angry and sad for you. It pains me to see that you feel it is wrong to please other people, rather than Jesus. To feel guilt about wanting to please and help your fellow man is not only a loss to them, but harmful to you.

Guilt is a terrible emotion, and noone suffers more than you, if your guilt leads you to deny your own positive impulses towards other people.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you should never regret anything, and that guilt can't be varanted at times (like if you have hurt somebody), but it is so painful for me to hear that you labour under guilt, when there is clearly so much love and kindness in you.

Let it out, for goodness sake, don't scorn yourself for wanting to love other people.

Can you clarify what you mean by "...when I get off focus and try to please men rather than Him..."?

Are you a woman, and are you talking about sex and romance?

Or are you talking about doing something pleasing and helpful for "your fellow man" as it where, that goes against some rule of your faith?

Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin


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Fonzie can't answer me god

Fonzie can't answer me god .... Umm , that's a good honest start, I think, I hope.


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Fonzie wrote:His sword is

Fonzie wrote:
His sword is already sharper than any.

Why is Jesus holding a sword?

Fonzie wrote:
Has anybody died that still inspires you?

Well, no one personally, but, Martin Luther King Jr., Oscar Schindler, George Orwell, etc.

The story of Jesus is truly remarkable, a tale of love, kindness, sacrifice, and triumph. Previously, man and God were so far apart that there was always a chasm that needed to be crossed; man was simply too evil to reach the standards of God.  Thus, God sent his only Son into the midst of mankind. Jesus suffered and died on the cross for our sins, but it wasn't a meaningless death, for He was so innocent and good that his death allowed us to be saved. We can be cleansed of sin and forgiven, as long as we follow in Jesus Christ, the Messiah. 

However, I usually only respond to logos. I mean, the story of Jesus is a fantastic story, but, Ernest Hemingway also writes fanstastic stories. No matter how much it might appeal to emotion, it's still just emotion. There is no Holy Ghost, because I get the same feelings from reading any book as I do from reading the Bible. 

The Bible teaches you plenty about virtue and human interaction, but in order for it to be true, there must be evidence for it. Unfortunately, in this case, we come up empty handed.  

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Fonzie wrote:You must have

Fonzie wrote:
You must have faith in something to be so confident.
Nope, no faith here. My confidence comes from knowing established patterns.

Fonzie wrote:
Jesus was misrepresented but His Words were "My Kingdom is not of this world".  His actions bore that out.
Which is, by definition, politics. QED

Fonzie wrote:
Well I guess you can be blamed then.  There are thousands of atheists you can't control. 
It's not about control, hon. It's about speaking out against and acting against that which is wrong.

Fonzie wrote:
Blaming will keep you in work for sure, Jill Swift.
Rather a non sequitur there.

Fonzie wrote:
I never said I was fast.
Neither did I. What do you know? We have common ground!

 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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darth_josh wrote:Ok. That's

darth_josh wrote:

Ok. That's a new one. I don't think I've ever seen a 'false analogy strawman metaphor' before.

Call it what you will but time for investigating is moving on.

 

 

darth_josh wrote:

I gather that you believe because it makes you feel good in some ways. Can you tell me any ways in which believing in jesus makes you feel bad? Is it always 100% good?

darth_josh wrote:

I'll reword the question, if you don't mind?

Have you denied yourself something you felt was important based upon your belief? 

 

 

Yes.  It's happened several times that I thought I was making a sacrifice to help someone, give them a job, visit them, cheer them up - but it ended up they helped me far more than I helped them.  Faith enabled the decision to deny my desire to do something else but the found result was what I really wanted - which was "in Christ" - but couldn't find until the self-denial.

 

darth_josh wrote:


 

In other words, I lack belief in god(s) and I fear the believers.

What would there be to fear if there is nothing there?

 

darth_josh wrote:
Do you consider all humor directed at something to be 'sport' or would you say that I discriminate prejudicially.

There is always an element of truth in good humor.

I have seen good humor here that had the atheist definition of truth involved.  I think you discriminate prejudicially - I do too.   The question still is: "Who is Jesus?"

darth_josh wrote:


 

JESUS

I don't believe Jesus ever existed. I have seen no evidence to support the claim of his existence let alone his divinity. I find a great deal of fault with the teachings ascribed to 'him' including the beatitudes.

 

You have a lot of company in that view.  Hopefully you won't be swayed by company. 

As far as moral teaching, that isn't really the draw of the gospel any more than giving a picture of a healthy person to a sick.  The drawing power of Jesus was His being "lifted up".

darth_josh wrote:

By virtue of my environs, I cannot have too much prejudice against christians until I meet them individually. One would not be able to function in this society with any level of success if they were to be instantly dismissive of an entire ideology.

  That is rational to me, and so is your next statement.  I have met several atheists I am able to be around, work for and enjoy in some way.  We respect each other as men and women but don't accept each other's doctrine.  
darth_josh wrote:

With that said, I hope that statement makes sense to you as well if I change 'christians' to 'atheists'.

 
darth_josh wrote:

FAITH IN GOD

Yes. I freely admit that as soon as someone mentions theism it piques my senses. For years after I became an atheist, I was very curious when someone presented an argument in favor of belief. I think I still am.

 

Well I am not alarmed by your unbelief.  And curiosity can be a good thing.  It caused the Queen of the South to leave her throne and comfort and check out Solomon personally at great risk and expense.  Don't let her rise up at the judgment and rebuke you. 

darth_josh wrote:

Please remember, my first question will always be: "Which god?" followed by: "Why that one instead of all the others?" If that counts as prejudice then I am guilty in your eyes, but justified in mine own and others.

I challenge you to show me how any so-called "god" is better than Jesus in any way.  I'll listen and check it out to my satisfaction.

darth_josh wrote:

At this point in my life, the very best argument I have ever heard is that theism is a mind disorder. As such, my compassion for the 'faithful' is at an all-time high. However, my cheeks take a very long time to heal and do not turn easily.

 

I am enjoying my mind disorder greatly  

 

darth_josh wrote:

 

Primarily. I don't have to live my life under fear of eternal punishment for a lifetime's finite sin.

  I don't either. 

 

darth_josh wrote:
  I am free to ask questions as to whether or not there really is a god without worrying about the answers.
   I am free to ask and through the eyes of faith I either get answers or are at perfect peace with the mystery.

 

darth_josh wrote:
That is what living without religious 'faith' has done for me.

Secondly, I'm not as inclined to tell others they are wrong with regard to the way they have chosen to live their lives.

  Well, I will only offer a different view. 

darth_josh wrote:
Often in sermons, preachers will use the alleged bad examples of 'creation' to extoll the virtues of their faith. They (the preachers I've heard and that's no small number) want to 'help' the allegedly lost 'souls' as if they have the ONLY way to live and by definition that is prejudice. Incidentally, I have this exact problem with MANY of those whom espouse 'humanism' rather than just base atheism.
 

 

My faith is not in preachers. 

darth_josh wrote:

Thirdly, skepticism. Plain and simple. Not only has it protected me from being abused by the 'evil' parts of our world, but it has granted a wealth of knowledge on many a divers issue. The simple act of questioning one important time makes it much easier to do so the next time and so forth.

 

 

I am very skeptical too of things that have hurt me - including my own thinking.  I have to be on guard every moment against the evil one.  I take my own thoughts captive and see if they align with the desires of Christ. 

 

darth_josh wrote:

Would you concur that those three things are different in your life as a current believer?

  No as I have explained.  I am just skeptical about different things. 

 

 

 {fixed [learn how to use the quote codes correctly] aiia}
 

 


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Vastet wrote:This is an


 

Vastet wrote:


 

This is an assertion. If a "right" representation of faith in christ wouldn't, then why didn't your god include the "right" representation within the books and scriptures of the religion?

 

He did.  The problem was me as I have said.  The good news is God is a merciful God and I can get up and go on and keep learning.

You couldn't judge by the reaction either since they crucified Jesus without cause.  Has your lack of faith or faith that there is no God ever hurt anybody? 

Vastet wrote:

 If someone hurts me, I will hurt them back. I will not, however, begin the conflict. I let them come to me. So if I have hurt anyone through my lack of belief, it was their own fault for starting such a conversation. In your case, you are encouraged to start such conflicts, making you a perpetrator; and not a victim.

 I may have a different perspective on the definition and value of "hurt" than you.  I am not trying to hurt you however in any way from my perspective.  You could perceive it that way I'm sure if I disagreed with you but from my perspective I would be wrestling with ideas, seeing Christ as having the right idea and also the possibility that I am perceiving His idea wrongly.  I am conscious of past errors in that, so I am open to my being wrong.

One time their reaction to one of Jesus' sermons was to take Him out and try to throw Him off a hill.  But He wasn't trying to hurt them by telling them that God loves people other than Israelites and citing examples.  They might have perceived it that way - or just not liked it, I don't know. 

 

darth_josh wrote:
That's the limit of the faith I extend to someone I do not now.
  Sure as long as you don't let that "theist" title cause you to react rather than honestly consider.

darth_josh wrote:

On another point, you realize that merely by saying "I believe in jesus", you are challenging those around you to agree or disagree with you, right? Simply saying the words prompts others around you to agree with you, unless you are surrounded by those who do not agree with you.

 

I am challenging you honestly with what I am confident is the truth.  I am interested in your honest thoughts from deep in your thinking whether it is what I agree with or not.  I think there is value in wrestling with ideas honestly. 


 

Vastet wrote:

 

Then your understanding is flawed horribly. The scriptures were written centuries ago by ignorant and primitive war mongers. What makes them valid? Nothing.

  

 

You should look deeper into the Scriptures and you would strike gold and diamonds. 

 

  {fixed [learn how to use the quote codes correctly] aiia}

 


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Fonzie wrote: darth_josh

Fonzie wrote:
 

darth_josh wrote:

I gather that you believe because it makes you feel good in some ways. Can you tell me any ways in which believing in jesus makes you feel bad? Is it always 100% good?

darth_josh wrote:

I'll reword the question, if you don't mind?

Have you denied yourself something you felt was important based upon your belief? 

 

Yes.  It's happened several times that I thought I was making a sacrifice to help someone, give them a job, visit them, cheer them up - but it ended up they helped me far more than I helped them.  Faith enabled the decision to deny my desire to do something else but the found result was what I really wanted - which was "in Christ" - but couldn't find until the self-denial.

 

Very interesting. I think I understand that you are saying without your belief then you would not have done those same good things. Is that correct?

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:

 

In other words, I lack belief in god(s) and I fear the believers.

What would there be to fear if there is nothing there?

No believers to fear???? That would be awesome.

You have stated many times in this thread that we should not look at you as a 'typical believer'. Regardless of your status, we have countless examples of believers enacting horrible atrocities. I am confident that you would be able to see the same patterns that we have.

We look for causes all of the time when something we don't understand takes place. Even religious people must ascribe their lack of understanding to something(god's will or whatever). Unfortunately, we're finding a more 'tangible' reason for aberrant behaviors.

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:

JESUS

I don't believe Jesus ever existed. I have seen no evidence to support the claim of his existence let alone his divinity. I find a great deal of fault with the teachings ascribed to 'him' including the beatitudes.

 

You have a lot of company in that view.  Hopefully you won't be swayed by company. 

As far as moral teaching, that isn't really the draw of the gospel any more than giving a picture of a healthy person to a sick.  The drawing power of Jesus was His being "lifted up".

Yet there are many examples of this same scenario repeated and prior to jesus.

If the teachings of jesus were to be disregarded in favor of the one promise of faith's reward then why would there be so much influence upon you and your ideologues concerning the value of being 'christ-like'?

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:

By virtue of my environs, I cannot have too much prejudice against christians until I meet them individually. One would not be able to function in this society with any level of success if they were to be instantly dismissive of an entire ideology.

  That is rational to me, and so is your next statement.  I have met several atheists I am able to be around, work for and enjoy in some way.  We respect each other as men and women but don't accept each other's doctrine.  

With that said, I hope that statement makes sense to you as well if I change 'christians' to 'atheists'.

 

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:

FAITH IN GOD

Yes. I freely admit that as soon as someone mentions theism it piques my senses. For years after I became an atheist, I was very curious when someone presented an argument in favor of belief. I think I still am.

 

Well I am not alarmed by your unbelief.  And curiosity can be a good thing.  It caused the Queen of the South to leave her throne and comfort and check out Solomon personally at great risk and expense.  Don't let her rise up at the judgment and rebuke you.

Here's the thing. I can't have a rational discussion with you if we're going to preach from the book of presuppositions.

You're asking for faith in the story and its alleged ending from me, the faithless.

I agree that curiosity is a good thing and as we proceed, you will eventually have to answer my other question that I will reiterate at the end of this post in order to satisfy mine.

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:

Please remember, my first question will always be: "Which god?" followed by: "Why that one instead of all the others?" If that counts as prejudice then I am guilty in your eyes, but justified in mine own and others.

I challenge you to show me how any so-called "god" is better than Jesus in any way.  I'll listen and check it out to my satisfaction.

The gods of the native americans were pretty darn good. The reward for living a good life was to walk in the spirit world full of plenty with the denizens of nature as companions. When you died, you would be granted the wisdom of the elders which passed before you.

The gods of the native americans were seen as powerful in their respective environment. The less desirable components of society were simply extinguished rather than tortured for all of eternity in fire as jesus so threatened.

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:

At this point in my life, the very best argument I have ever heard is that theism is a mind disorder. As such, my compassion for the 'faithful' is at an all-time high. However, my cheeks take a very long time to heal and do not turn easily.

 

I am enjoying my mind disorder greatly 

 

Are you also enjoying the effects of your mind disorder on those less capable of managing secular/spiritual borders?

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:
 

Primarily. I don't have to live my life under fear of eternal punishment for a lifetime's finite sin.

 

I don't either.

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:
  I am free to ask questions as to whether or not there really is a god without worrying about the answers.
  

I am free to ask and through the eyes of faith I either get answers or are at perfect peace with the mystery.

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:
That is what living without religious 'faith' has done for me.

Secondly, I'm not as inclined to tell others they are wrong with regard to the way they have chosen to live their lives.

 

Well, I will only offer a different view.

 

Accompanying that different view is a feeling of aversion. No?

I know there is probably pity in your mind for those whom have chosen alternate life decisions. However, can you honestly tell me that your initial emotion isn't revulsion?

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:
Often in sermons, preachers will use the alleged bad examples of 'creation' to extoll the virtues of their faith. They (the preachers I've heard and that's no small number) want to 'help' the allegedly lost 'souls' as if they have the ONLY way to live and by definition that is prejudice. Incidentally, I have this exact problem with MANY of those whom espouse 'humanism' rather than just base atheism.
 

 

My faith is not in preachers. 

We have that in common. However, I must ask you to examine this point: Without preachers, would you have reached this point on your own?

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:

Thirdly, skepticism. Plain and simple. Not only has it protected me from being abused by the 'evil' parts of our world, but it has granted a wealth of knowledge on many a divers issue. The simple act of questioning one important time makes it much easier to do so the next time and so forth.

 

 

I am very skeptical too of things that have hurt me - including my own thinking.  I have to be on guard every moment against the evil one.  I take my own thoughts captive and see if they align with the desires of Christ.

Which 'evil one'? In order to believe there is an 'evil one', you would have had to have heard it from somewhere.

[Just a quick analogy. I'm trying hard to avoid this appearing as a strawman] In politics, the other side is the 'evil one'. Yet we do not take politicians on 'faith'. In fact, I would say that an overwhelming majority of people distrust the politicians who tell us who the 'evil ones' are.

Why should jesus be considered any differently? If 'he' is telling us that there is evil in the world and many of us have investigated it and no evil has been found then how would I be able to trust jesus unequivocally?

 

Fonzie wrote:
darth_josh wrote:

Would you concur that those three things are different in your life as a current believer?

 

No as I have explained.  I am just skeptical about different things.

 

And here is where I wish to bring this wagon train around...

 

Have you ever considered the possibility that your god does not exist and what made you remain a believer?

 

 

Quote:
{fixed [learn how to use the quote codes correctly] aiia}

 

Click here for a detailed explanation of 'How to Use the Quote Function'
 

 

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Fonzie wrote:magilum

Fonzie wrote:

magilum wrote:

And where do your answers come from?

My answers come from the battle of faith.  My wounds and victories season me. 

  {fixed [learn how to use the quote codes correctly] aiia}

And you've said less with each response, until the whole thing spirals into an empty metaphor.


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Yeah magilum , a metaphor of

Yeah magilum , a metaphor of imagination wishful woo woo .... B.S.


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Fonzie wrote: Vastet

Fonzie wrote:


 

Vastet wrote:


 

This is an assertion. If a "right" representation of faith in christ wouldn't, then why didn't your god include the "right" representation within the books and scriptures of the religion?

 

He did.  The problem was me as I have said. 

Ridiculous. You are levelling upon yourself blame that can only be attributed to the people who wrote the crap down in the first place. How is it possible to misunderstand the phrase "it is raining"? If your god truly existed, and was truly omniscient, then the laws and documents of the religion would have been set in stone, unbreakable and unalterable. They are not. Two people can read one passage and obtain opposite perspectives of what the passage contained. Therefore the passage is flawed and useless. It is not holy. It is not godly. It is not truth. It is a waste of paper and time.

Fonzie wrote:
The good news is God is a merciful God and I can get up and go on and keep learning.

The greater news is that you are your own god, which is why your god is that way.

Fonzie wrote:
You couldn't judge by the reaction either since they crucified Jesus without cause.  Has your lack of faith or faith that there is no God ever hurt anybody? 

Vastet wrote:

 If someone hurts me, I will hurt them back. I will not, however, begin the conflict. I let them come to me. So if I have hurt anyone through my lack of belief, it was their own fault for starting such a conversation. In your case, you are encouraged to start such conflicts, making you a perpetrator; and not a victim.

 I may have a different perspective on the definition and value of "hurt" than you.  I am not trying to hurt you however in any way from my perspective.

A saying from christians comes to mind: The path to hell is paved with good intentions. You might not be trying to hurt me, or people like me, but you are. You do so from ignorance, but you do so all the same. Until you can understand our perspective, your comments that are attempts to be nice and friendly instead come across as condescending and pointless, if not down right naive.

Fonzie wrote:
  You could perceive it that way I'm sure if I disagreed with you but from my perspective I would be wrestling with ideas, seeing Christ as having the right idea and also the possibility that I am perceiving His idea wrongly.  I am conscious of past errors in that, so I am open to my being wrong.

I don't accept the idea that your jesus christ existed. Your continued suggestions that he did, despite a lack of evidence to support you, is insulting my intelligence. I illustrate this point in light of the one I make above, to try and get you to understand.

Fonzie wrote:
One time their reaction to one of Jesus' sermons was to take Him out and try to throw Him off a hill.  But He wasn't trying to hurt them by telling them that God loves people other than Israelites and citing examples.  They might have perceived it that way - or just not liked it, I don't know. 

No, you don't know. Noone knows. For all we know, the guy everyone in christianity refers to as "jesus", actually lived 700 years before the bible says he did. Or 400 years later. Or not at all. Or he died from cancer, instead of a crucifix. There is simply no credible history to support jesus' existance, let alone his actions during that existance.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:
That's the limit of the faith I extend to someone I do not now.
  Sure as long as you don't let that "theist" title cause you to react rather than honestly consider.

On another point, you realize that merely by saying "I believe in jesus", you are challenging those around you to agree or disagree with you, right? Simply saying the words prompts others around you to agree with you, unless you are surrounded by those who do not agree with you.

 

I am challenging you honestly with what I am confident is the truth.  I am interested in your honest thoughts from deep in your thinking whether it is what I agree with or not.  I think there is value in wrestling with ideas honestly. 

I don't disagree. I was simply making sure you were aware of it. Most theists aren't.


 

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

 

Then your understanding is flawed horribly. The scriptures were written centuries ago by ignorant and primitive war mongers. What makes them valid? Nothing.

  

 

You should look deeper into the Scriptures and you would strike gold and diamonds.

 

Both literally and figuratively this is a failed argument. The more one looks into the scriptures, the more one finds rot, decay, and horror. There is no gold. There is no diamonds. There is no light. Only darkness. Only death. Only ignorance.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Fonzie wrote:Faith in Jesus

Fonzie wrote:

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus. 

 

That's fine. That's your choice, after all. Smiling 

Quote:
I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life.

If you believe in it and it makes you happy, then more power to you! The only problem I have is when believers try forcing their views into the political ring via vote or the even worse shady "otherwise."  

Quote:
I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed.
 

If you don't think it can be proven, you're either a Calvinist (i.e. Christ is an unprovable assertion to reprobates) or you're an agnostic Christian ("feeling" Christian, in other words). Which best describes you? 

Quote:
So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

If you're fooling yourself, that means you know the truth but deny it for some reason, and I'm not going to go all Atheist Twin of Van Til and levy that on you. 

The purpose of this site is not really known to me, but my own personal purpose is to prevent a religion from infesting the government and, secondarily, to get my own views challenged while presenting atheism as a valid alternative that isn't either existential despair or Communist despotism. 

The only issue I'd have with your description is that it doesn't make Christianity true. Have you ever explored the evidence for your beliefs? It can be a powerful reinforcer, or an open way to a different point of view. It's all out there; all you have to do is crack whatever book you can find for each side of the debate and then think

"When the Lord Jesus Christ in His own words describes in some little detail that great drama that's the most important event in all human history, time, and eternity - this event, the great general judgment - the Lord Jesus Christ, then shall He say unto them on His right hand, 'Come ye blessed of My Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, for when you had opportunity at one of Billy Graham's campaigns you went forward and took good ol' Jesus as your very own personal savior.' NO! GET REAL!" - Fred Phelps


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Fonzie wrote:You should look

Fonzie wrote:
You should look deeper into the Scriptures and you would strike gold and diamonds.

It would not be an exaggeration to state that virtually every member of this forum has read huge chunks of the Bible. Many of us, not only read the entire Bible from cover to cover, but also studied extensively the Koran, Torah, Book of Mormon, the history of the scriptures, arguments from theists and atheists, etc. Furthermore, some of us are experts in comparative religion, philosophy, psychology, biology, physics, etc....

So, what exactly do you mean when you ask us to dig deeper into the scriptures? I didn't find any gold or diamonds in my Bible. 

Is it here?

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Deuteronomy 13:6-10"

Maybe here?

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Exodus 21:20"

How about these?

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 1 Corinthians 13:4-5"

"Beloved, let us LOVE one another: for love is of God; and every one who loves is born of God, and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is LOVE. 1 John 4:7-8"

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:5-6"

"Anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Leviticus 24:16"

"For all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. Zephaniah 3:8"

I've found all kinds of atrocities, racism, sexism, rape, slavery, and complete contradictions, but I haven't seen any diamonds. Where are they? 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Right O butterbattle .... I

Right O butterbattle ....

I enjoyed reading the bi bull. Moses, "just tell them I am what I am" !!!  My favorite NT parts describes an atheistic buddha like story jesus philosophy sect of thought .

Atheistic Tom Jefferson even put together his own Jefferson Bible version! I named one of my early bands, 'Thomas Jefferson'.    

Tom - "The whole history of these books [the NT Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills." ~ Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

   Check out the quotes page in the site "Positive Atheism" ....

 

 


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Quote:as to pick out

Quote:
as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

Ah, so maybe the OP is referring to the political, social, and moral lessons that we can learn from the Bible. Proverbs? Jesus's parables? Sermon on the mount? However, to refer to such chapters/verses as diamonds is extremely vague and subjective. Plus, I don't agree with all the lessons that the Bible teaches, and it really doesn't strike me as special in any regard. I've never read a sentence that seemed to be "divine."

Why do I like so many other books more than the Bible?    

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Butter , As to to the OP

Wise  Butter , As to to the OP guy, who believes all of it, is simply in awe of his confusion. But all the ancient texts are a view into the nature of our current selves, and for the most part a lesson of wrong thinking "dung", while "diamonds" of early linguistics are there as well, such as the "Golden Rule", which philosophically can be argued , but to not much avail as I see reality. Kind of like the extremes of yin yang of cooperation or competition. The buddha writings talk about the "middle"....

  Have you read RRS AUTHOR Rook in this site at upper left? He talks about why understanding the ancient writing is important, and what they mean historically, as too a better understanding of what we are as humans. Yeah jesus is a myth, a meme, but why such religion is to understand our current general world view general mind set. 

   Yeah, I know you know that butter. I guess I was just sticking up for Tom Jefferson. LOL. Thanks for posting fellow atheist ....   


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:But

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

But all the ancient texts are a view into the nature of our current selves, and for the most part a lesson of wrong thinking "dung", while "diamonds" of early linguistics are there as well, such as the "Golden Rule", which philosophically can be argued , but to not much avail as I see reality. Kind of like the extremes of yin yang of cooperation or competition. The buddha writings talk about the "middle"....

Exactly. Many theists always make the assumption that morality comes from their respective religions; thus, non-religious people are homosexual, Satanic, baby eaters. (yum, for recipes, refer to Jonathon Swift) They completely ignore the fact that every religion has a different set of morals and none of them are even close to what the average person considers ideal. They just think, based on faith, that their book contains the "right" morals. 

However, what even more suspicious is that the beliefs outlined in each holy text is exactly what you would expect if the texts were not divinely inspired, but invented by the people associated with it.

Old Testament-People living in the middle east thousands of years ago.

Quran-Mostly the same as above.

Book of Mormon-Joseph Smith

Fundamentals of Thought-Ron L. Hubbard

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

  Have you read RRS AUTHOR Rook in this site at upper left? He talks about why understanding the ancient writing is important, and what they mean historically, as too a better understanding of what we are as humans.   

Actually, no, I haven't read any of those, but I plan to. I'm kind of busy, and I seriously shouldn't be spending this much time on RRS to begin with.  

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Fonzie wrote:Ok, I can see

Fonzie wrote:
Ok, I can see you are smarter than me and better in every way.  That's ok with me.

That's not what I said, nor did I ever imply that in any way. I merely expressed that though it may be all great for you, it's of absolutely no value to me, or anyone else here besides you yourself.

But if you say so...

Fonzie wrote:
Ok, I'll accept that you are sorry.  Accept from me that there is no reason to be sorry because I have the navigation and am happily using it.

I know you're happy about it, but that just makes me feel even more sorry for you. To me it's like seeing a slave who is happy to be one because that's what's been beaten into him by his masters. 

Fonzie wrote:
So you are like one of the pioneers, coming to America, exploring the new land for themselves, finding their own way, making a new life for themselves.

The pioneers had to spend almost every spare moment doing things to sustain life, like chopping wood, getting ready for winter.  They didn't have much spare time in their quest for their new life.  You might run out of time before you find it.

Huh? I don't get that analogy at all. I'm free from religion, I get to govern my own life and I only answer to myself. This doesn't mean I have to work more than any theist, it doesn't mean I have less time to enjoy life (which is what I think you propose would be analogous with "new life" ), quite the contrary actually. The way I see it is that I have a lot more time and most importantly ability to appreciate this life, because I don't waste it in church, and I make the most of my time because I know that this time here is all that I will ever get.

Just because you would like to have more time in the world doesn't mean you can just believe it and SIMSALABIM! you have it.

(Oh, and I never were a theist either, so I never "went to America". I was simply lucky enough to be born free of it all. But perhaps I'm just misunderstanding your analogy completely, and this is completely irrelevant. I don't know. It's just too weird for me be sure of what you're trying to say.)

"Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much fraternizing with the enemy."


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butterbattle wrote:Why is

butterbattle wrote:

Why is Jesus holding a sword?

 ...didn't say He was holding one - I said His Sword is already sharper than any.  It is also available to you - "The Word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword, able to divide soul, spirit, bone, marrow".  I have experienced this. 

butterbattle wrote:


 

The story of Jesus is truly remarkable, a tale of love, kindness, sacrifice, and triumph. Previously, man and God were so far apart that there was always a chasm that needed to be crossed; man was simply too evil to reach the standards of God.  Thus, God sent his only Son into the midst of mankind. Jesus suffered and died on the cross for our sins, but it wasn't a meaningless death, for He was so innocent and good that his death allowed us to be saved. We can be cleansed of sin and forgiven, as long as we follow in Jesus Christ, the Messiah. 

However, I usually only respond to logos. I mean, the story of Jesus is a fantastic story, but, Ernest Hemingway also writes fanstastic stories. No matter how much it might appeal to emotion, it's still just emotion. There is no Holy Ghost, because I get the same feelings from reading any book as I do from reading the Bible.

 No, the story of Jesus is either the greatest thing in life by far -  or the world's all time totally biggest hoax.  It can't be just somewhere in between because of what it claims. 

It is simply this:  man is lost and God becomes man to save him.

Jesus is either God, born of a virgin, has died for our sins, rose from the dead, paid the price for our sins with His blood - or the greatest imposter of all time.  I can't enjoy it as just a fantastic story even though it is the greatest story to me - but just to limit it to that would be to assign something dead serious to the novel section. 

 

 

butterbattle wrote:

The Bible teaches you plenty about virtue and human interaction, but in order for it to be true, there must be evidence for it. Unfortunately, in this case, we come up empty handed.  

 

 

Without faith you are indeed empty handed.  I would say the result is a tribute to the power of sin and the cords weaved by it.  People would evacuate a train for a lot less warning, but people won't exit through the door of God's mercy though warned.  They take it as ridiculous though simple and pleasant.  It's a mystery. 

But if you enslave a man's will he is a prisoner indeed.

I have evidence within myself for myself.  It couldn't be more true to me if I could see all the things that happened in the Bible first hand. 

 

BTW this quote of Marcus Aurelius is a false hope and in the end will be shown for the lie that it is - because the Scriptures say that man's righteousness is filthy rags before God.  They may look good to man and be honored by man and society but accepting this lie is not a result of understanding the Word of God to be true.  It's a losing bet.

{fixedaiia}


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JillSwift wrote:Nope, no

JillSwift wrote:

Nope, no faith here. My confidence comes from knowing established patterns.

    So your faith is in being able to know and discern patterns? 

Jesus was misrepresented but His Words were "My Kingdom is not of this world".  His actions bore that out.

JillSwift wrote:
Which is, by definition, politics. QED

 

His Kingdom was not a Kingdom that is of this world.  Look how different He is than world kings parading by.  He carries His Throne on His back to be lifted up. 

He didn't establish His Kingdom by shedding other's blood or making others suffer, but by suffering Himself and shedding His Own blood.

Yet He established His Kingdom on solid rock with subjects eternally grateful and dedicated to Him.  He is enthroned in their hearts.  Such is fitting for the Prince of Peace.

Even being beaten by Pilate He was King - acknowledged by Pilate.  Even on the Cross He made decrees ("this day you will be with Me in Paradise&quotEye-wink - when will He not be King? - Never!  But He is not enthroned in this world like a worldly king because His Kingdom is not of this world.

If we are "not of the world" as Jesus is "not of the world" we don't present Christ as a political world force. 

 

JillSwift wrote:

It's not about control, hon. It's about speaking out against and acting against that which is wrong. 

 

 

It's pretty impossible to change hearts by law or force or the shouting of a ruler. 

 

JillSwift wrote:

Rather a non sequitur there.

 Just lighting a lamp further down the road JillSwift.

JillSwift wrote:

 What do you know? We have common ground!

 

 

I think we are made out of common ground, JillSwift. 

{fixed aiia}


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Nikolaj wrote:Hi Fonzie.

Nikolaj wrote:

Hi Fonzie. I've skimmed the thread and you seem like a very loving and friendly person. Good on you, for that.

Fonzie wrote:
Believing in Jesus makes me feel bad when I get off focus and try to please men rather than Him.  I then experience discipline from grieving the Holy Spirit; but that turns out to be good.  The pain causes me to return to the path I want to be on - focused on Jesus.
This statement makes me very angry and sad for you. It pains me to see that you feel it is wrong to please other people, rather than Jesus. To feel guilt about wanting to please and help your fellow man is not only a loss to them, but harmful to you.

Fonzie wrote:

You changed my answer.  What pleases people often doesn't help them.  Guilt isn't a motivator to me - except to confess it to Jesus - a maintenance thing like washing the feet, quickly dealt with there but not a motivator or a problem. 

Nikolaj wrote:

Guilt is a terrible emotion, and noone suffers more than you, if your guilt leads you to deny your own positive impulses towards other people.

Fonzie wrote:

You have misunderstood again and if you have faith I am telling you the truth you will accept it. 

 
Nikolaj wrote:

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you should never regret anything, and that guilt can't be varanted at times (like if you have hurt somebody), but it is so painful for me to hear that you labour under guilt, when there is clearly so much love and kindness in you.

Fonzie wrote:

I don't get you wrong - don't worry. 

Nikolaj wrote:

Let it out, for goodness sake, don't scorn yourself for wanting to love other people.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Are you offering second grade by correspondence?  

 
Nikolaj wrote:

Can you clarify what you mean by "...when I get off focus and try to please men rather than Him..."?

Are you a woman, and are you talking about sex and romance?

 

Fonzie wrote:
 

No, I am the charmer of a deaf adder. 

 

 

Nikolaj wrote:

Or are you talking about doing something pleasing and helpful for "your fellow man" as it where, that goes against some rule of your faith?

 
Fonzie wrote:
  One example of what I am talking about is the temptation to take that seemingly easy road of agreeing with my fellow man in his acceptance of lies about God, Jesus and the Scriptures. 


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Easy road

Accepting reality and accepting the fact that you are responsible for your own actions and that only YOU not god, not jesus can make the decision to be a good person or a bad person, that is far from the easy road. The fact that once you accept that your incorrect decisions or "sinnful" ways cannot be absolved by praying to a imaginary being, and that you have to take actions to correct any wrongs that you have done in your life towards others such as friends and family and that only by being truthfully remorseful and asking for their forgiveness not the forgiveness of jesus or god can you start to change yourself.....that is FAR from being an easy road, but hey, I always found believing that asking jesus to forgive your sins the easy road. Taking responsibilty for your actions and taking responsiblity to correct and seek forgiveness from those that you hurt or wronged to be far far harder than asking something that doesn't exist or care for forgiveness. But hey that's just me.


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darth_josh wrote: Very

darth_josh wrote:

 

Very interesting. I think I understand that you are saying without your belief then you would not have done those same good things. Is that correct?

 

Fonzie wrote:

Yes that's true.  I wouldn't.  

darth_josh wrote:


We look for causes all of the time when something we don't understand takes place. Even religious people must ascribe their lack of understanding to something(god's will or whatever). Unfortunately, we're finding a more 'tangible' reason for aberrant behaviors.

 

Fonzie wrote:

That might work if things were as they seem on the surface.  Using the light of the Scriptures I find things aren't as they appear on the surface and men using your approach are tripped up with respect to eternal things. 

 

 

darth_josh wrote:


If the teachings of jesus were to be disregarded in favor of the one promise of faith's reward then why would there be so much influence upon you and your ideologues concerning the value of being 'christ-like'?

Fonzie wrote:

No, the powerful thing is a real relationship with the Living Christ through the Holy Spirit - that is an ongoing thing that starts now, is now, and is what is to be.  It crosses the river of Death leaving behind the biggest deterrent to life in Christ here on earth - our flesh. 

darth_josh wrote:


The gods of the native americans were seen as powerful in their respective environment. The less desirable components of society were simply extinguished rather than tortured for all of eternity in fire as jesus so threatened.

Fonzie wrote:

Ok but Jesus was with God in the beginning.  The world was made through Him.  He left His home in heaven to come to earth and die for us to pay the price for our sins (His blood) and wash us with the water of sanctification (deliver us from the power of sin).

He took His place with the lowly, the castoffs of society, the brokenhearted.  He kept His promise of love even to death on a cross, fulfilling the prophecies and bearing the marks of the Lamb of God (such as; "not a bone broken&quotEye-wink.  He sent His Spirit to live in us now.  Eternal life has started now with us in our living relationship with Him.  It's great! 

darth_josh wrote:


 

Are you also enjoying the effects of your mind disorder on those less capable of managing secular/spiritual borders? 

Fonzie wrote:
If it is truly a mind disorder what would my assessment of that be worth? 

darth_josh wrote:


 

Accompanying that different view is a feeling of aversion. No?  

Fonzie wrote:

No, no aversion.  It may be shocking that somebody is confident in what they believe but the gospel has a built in means of keeping a person humble - one example:  the Righteousness of God in Christ is always a gift, never deserved.  It is always the Gift of God for me and everyone who will receive it.  If I start having aversion my relationship with the forgiving God starts becoming a hollow form without substance.  That's a safeguard.  I can't be that way and continue my fellowship with God and His Son Jesus Who aren't that way.  It would be a sham. 

darth_josh wrote:

I know there is probably pity in your mind for those whom have chosen alternate life decisions. However, can you honestly tell me that your initial emotion isn't revulsion? 

 

Fonzie wrote:

I have gone through aversion to myself then wholehearted acceptance of grace in Christ.  I don't have revulsion to those who have alternate life decisions - not that I am not capable of a wrong attitude or thought.  I have to repent of such things myself on a regular basis taking thoughts captive and arresting them, checking them out for compliance with the Will of Christ.  I have work security guarding my heart.

I would be rising above my level of life to have revulsion for my fellow human beings - being a fellow human being, being in all ways equal to others, in all ways guilty, except for the Blood of Jesus.

 

 

 

darth_josh wrote:

We have that in common. However, I must ask you to examine this point: Without preachers, would you have reached this point on your own? 

Fonzie wrote:

 

I had friends that proved to be "preachers" on a friendship level in the sense that we all are preachers or teachers.  

The right preachers would point a person to faith in Jesus and not themselves.  John the Baptist is a good example of this. 

Later in Scriptures Peter heals a lame man by the power of Jesus' Name then keeps the people from worshipping him - he rather points them to worship Jesus.  I have had brushes with preachers that were off the beam like you mentioned.  Fortunately I can read and think for myself like you. 

darth_josh wrote:


Which 'evil one'? In order to believe there is an 'evil one', you would have had to have heard it from somewhere. 

 

Fonzie wrote:

I do believe it from reading the Bible and also the truth of it is proved in my personal experience:  that the devil is like a roaring lion.  I see myself with the same danger as a bird or deer needing to be always watching.  I think it is wise in this world to always be on guard - don't you?  (Ha, you will probably say "yes, on guard against Christians", but honestly I am harmless to you, just offering my honest perspective and experience, open to your challenge, yet secure in my faith in Christ.)

 

 

darth_josh wrote:

 

[Just a quick analogy. I'm trying hard to avoid this appearing as a strawman] In politics, the other side is the 'evil one'. Yet we do not take politicians on 'faith'. In fact, I would say that an overwhelming majority of people distrust the politicians who tell us who the 'evil ones' are. 

 

 

Fonzie wrote:

It's not surprising when you consider we don't even know everything about ourselves.  "Know yourself" is harder than it looks on the surface.  In some ways we remain a mystery to ourselves.  In reality we can't completely do it - so how can we completely know another person? 

 

darth_josh}

 

 

Why should jesus be considered any differently? If 'he' is telling us that there is evil in the world and many of us have investigated it and no evil has been found then how would I be able to trust jesus unequivocally?[/quote wrote:

 

 

Fonzie wrote:
Man, I don't have the answer to that one.  That's further back in thinking than I go.  When I started reading the Scriptures I didn't have any trouble seeing the evil I had done and being upset over it.  I had more of a problem forgiving myself - for a while - but later came to accept the grace of God completely. 

I had been totally fooled by evil and run over by Satan - then he would turn and run over me again.  But the Holy Spirit came on the scene and started training me to see that it doesn't have to be that way. and it isn't that way now in Christ - I can resist him.  Christ has brought me to a spacious level place of security. 

I don't mean to be bragging about it, but just trying to understand and answer your question.  I just didn't have a problem seeing evil as evil.

 

darth_josh wrote:


 

Have you ever considered the possibility that your god does not exist and what made you remain a believer?

Fonzie wrote:

Stay with me on this.  Just like sin has a great excitement on the start then twists tangled cords of entanglement from which there is no escape...so the gospel starts small too - like a small seed which has life to grow and put out roots.  When the tree of life has grown strong in us and withstood storms within oneself you are asking me now if I can deny the reality of this Life of Christ within me?  No, I can't. 

At the same time, just like I could walk along a mountain road knowing it to be possible to go over and jump to my death - I know I could fall from my relationship with God.  But being totally happy and secure and satisfied in every way - why would I? 

With great desire and incentive I fan and feed the flame within me, wanting more of it, such that there are "back ups" to the danger of ever doing that. 

 

 

 

 

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magilum wrote:And you've

magilum wrote:

And you've said less with each response, until the whole thing spirals into an empty metaphor.

Fonzie wrote:
 

I wasn't expecting to take you to my perspective, just answer you from my perspective. 


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Vastet wrote:Ridiculous. You

Vastet wrote:

Ridiculous. You are levelling upon yourself blame that can only be attributed to the people who wrote the crap down in the first place. How is it possible to misunderstand the phrase "it is raining"? If your god truly existed, and was truly omniscient, then the laws and documents of the religion would have been set in stone, unbreakable and unalterable. They are not. Two people can read one passage and obtain opposite perspectives of what the passage contained. Therefore the passage is flawed and useless. It is not holy. It is not godly. It is not truth. It is a waste of paper and time. 

 

 

Fonzie wrote:

How is it that science can come out with a totally new practice and condemn the old practices of the past?   Why have they got it wrong again and again? 

 

Vastet wrote:

The greater news is that you are your own god, which is why your god is that way.

Fonzie wrote:

No, I'm not.  I'm consciously deferring to the Words and Precepts and Teachings of my God. 

Vastet wrote:


A saying from christians comes to mind: The path to hell is paved with good intentions.

Fonzie wrote:

That's not from the Scriptures.  That is just a person's impression of something.

Vastet wrote:

 

You might not be trying to hurt me, or people like me, but you are. You do so from ignorance, but you do so all the same. Until you can understand our perspective, your comments that are attempts to be nice and friendly instead come across as condescending and pointless, if not down right naive.

 

Fonzie wrote:

I'm trying to respectfully understand your perspective and be honest about it.  I think you're able to take discussion about these things without being hurt - or...find the "off" button.  I'm treating you like a man and I get the impression you're whining.

 

Vastet wrote:

I don't accept the idea that your jesus christ existed. Your continued suggestions that he did, despite a lack of evidence to support you, is insulting my intelligence. I illustrate this point in light of the one I make above, to try and get you to understand.

 

Fonzie wrote:

I am honestly telling you my experience in Christ - you are honestly not accepting.  You don't have to accept my experience as true, or as yours, but your not accepting doesn't change the fact that my experience of the truth of it is still 100% true to me.  Don't you want me to allow you the same freedom?  I'm not saying you are insulting my intelligence. 

Vastet wrote:

No, you don't know. Noone knows. For all we know, the guy everyone in christianity refers to as "jesus", actually lived 700 years before the bible says he did. Or 400 years later. Or not at all. Or he died from cancer, instead of a crucifix. There is simply no credible history to support jesus' existance, let alone his actions during that existance.

 

Fonzie wrote:
  There is my living experience with Christ.  I have evidence within myself and it is ongoing. 


Vastet wrote:

 

Then your understanding is flawed horribly. The scriptures were written centuries ago by ignorant and primitive war mongers. What makes them valid? Nothing.

  

 

Fonzie wrote:
 

Think about it.  If you believed in God you would believe He could manage His book publishing. 

 

Vastet wrote:


Both literally and figuratively this is a failed argument. The more one looks into the scriptures, the more one finds rot, decay, and horror. There is no gold. There is no diamonds. There is no light. Only darkness. Only death. Only ignorance.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Many times gold has been found where people had long overlooked. 

 

 


 


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Flagg wrote:If you don't

Flagg wrote:

If you don't think it can be proven, you're either a Calvinist (i.e. Christ is an unprovable assertion to reprobates) or you're an agnostic Christian ("feeling" Christian, in other words). Which best describes you?

 

Fonzie wrote:

I believe in Jesus.  You will have to match me with your definitions as you see them. 

 

Flagg wrote:

The only issue I'd have with your description is that it doesn't make Christianity true. Have you ever explored the evidence for your beliefs? It can be a powerful reinforcer, or an open way to a different point of view. It's all out there; all you have to do is crack whatever book you can find for each side of the debate and then think

 

Fonzie wrote:

 

I am proving the reality of my relationship with the Living Christ, yes.  I'm fanning the flame, feeding the fire, not neglecting the gift within me - so I am "proving" it as you say, but in a different way.  It is so real and I am so happy that I have to laugh at such doubts.

 

 

 


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butterbattle wrote:So, what

butterbattle wrote:


So, what exactly do you mean when you ask us to dig deeper into the scriptures? I didn't find any gold or diamonds in my Bible.

Fonzie wrote:

An example is Hagar when Sarah threw her out with Ishmael.  The lad cried and was thirsty.  The Lord opened her eyes and there was a well of water.  The well was there before but she couldn't see it until the Lord opened her eyes.  The same thing has to happen with Scripture.  If you don't go through the door (Jesus) you don't see the Scriptures as they are.   Your eyes aren't open to the treasures that are there.  They are locked to you. 

butterbattle wrote:


I've found all kinds of atrocities, racism, sexism, rape, slavery, and complete contradictions, but I haven't seen any diamonds. Where are they?

Fonzie wrote:

Rightly seen and in context it is all diamonds and gold to me.  True, the Bible tells it the way it is.  There are things in Scripture that lend themselves to be easily misunderstood by the casual student.  You would have the same problem with calculus, or diving in to a novel or play in the middle and claiming to know everything that is meant.  The Bible is spiritual food for a lifetime.  You can't approach it like Cliff's Notes.

 


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butterbattle wrote:Why do I

butterbattle wrote:

Why do I like so many other books more than the Bible?    

 

Fonzie wrote:
 

Your books fit the road you're on. 


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Proper Gander wrote:I know

Proper Gander wrote:


I know you're happy about it, but that just makes me feel even more sorry for you. To me it's like seeing a slave who is happy to be one because that's what's been beaten into him by his masters.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Yes I am totally happy with my Master, and I guess for the time being you are happy with yours. 

Proper Gander wrote:


Just because you would like to have more time in the world doesn't mean you can just believe it and SIMSALABIM! you have it.

 

Fonzie wrote:

Well, which would be more efficient --- to use a map, or have to make your own? 

 


 


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Fonzie wrote:magilum

Fonzie wrote:

magilum wrote:

And you've said less with each response, until the whole thing spirals into an empty metaphor.

Fonzie wrote:
 

I wasn't expecting to take you to my perspective, just answer you from my perspective. 

Don't write your replies in quotes.

(Also, the "in quotes" is silent.)

Basically, you're showing your typical Christian nihilism and passive-aggression. Subjectivity is the only safe place for a position as tenuous as yours.


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Fonzie,I think you're

Fonzie,

I think you're selling yourself short here.

You said that you would not have done those good things without your belief. Are those good deeds done for a reward? And you're avoiding the 'bad' things to avoid punishment? That doesn't sound like goodness, it sounds like fear. Am I correct here?

 

Is this 'light of the scriptures' eternal? If so then why are there so many pieces taken away and/or added? Do you see a problem here?

 

You asked me for a religion better than yours. I gave my response, but then you broke into sermon. If you want to continue a rational discussion about your beliefs then you're going to have to stop preaching and respond in kind. You said that you would look into a religion that I suggested was better than yours. What was so wrong with the native american ideology I presented to you?

 

It has been my experience (including this one) that adherents of christianity are anything but humble with regard to their beliefs. Grabbing one's cross and marching down the street proudly to an alleged eternal reward seems inherently arrogant, not humble. Can you see that from my perspective?

 

See? This phrase is blatantly arrogant:

Fonzie wrote:
being a fellow human being, being in all ways equal to others, in all ways guilty, except for the Blood of Jesus.
You set yourself above or just different from others while denigrating the human that is equal to others.

 

If you can read and think for yourself then why would these 'friends' be needed for your 'personal relationship' with christ?

 

Have you noticed a problem when you try to describe this 'devil' or 'evil one'? It always seems to take on attributes created by human minds?

 

You're just breaking into sermon every time I give you a 'hard' question. You asked for my honest participation yet I get the sense you are being duplicitous with me. The question isn't that hard. Why should we take faith in jesus any differently than we take faith in a politician?

 

 

So it would be safe for me to say that you WILL not accept the possibility that your god does not exist.

It seems important to mention that hinders you a little. Would you concur? After all, I merely lack faith in your god whilst you rely upon it.

If your god were proven to exist how would that change you, if at all?

Conversely, if a different god or no god at all were proven to be the case then what?

 

 

 

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I AM GOD AS YOU
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Fonzie, the christ is all of

Fonzie, the christ is all of us, as all is one, for eyes that can see. I agree with darth josh, and all atheists regarding No Master god ... I just use a different linguistic style of satire using a lot of religious language.

  Science best describes g AWE d , reality .... Check out thermodynamics, anti matter etc.

   Here's a start, the CERN site, "gawedly" !!!

   CERN Site Map -

http://livefromcern.web.cern.ch/livefromcern/antimatter/site-map.html

  A lot of my post rants of atheist preaching need work, so fix my words .... thanks, me god, me christ, just as YOU ....