You know God. You know God created the universe. You know He loves you. Surely, then, this will be no trouble for you...
Posted on: September 6, 2008 - 12:19am
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You know God. You know God created the universe. You know He loves you. Surely, then, this will be no trouble for you...
Explain to me the mechanisms by which God created the universe, creates souls, set-up Heaven and Hell, transformed into Jesus and performed miracles (just to get us started). Give me all the juicy details (post a video with them included, if you like. Or even just one of them), using the Rosetta Stone of mathematics and science as your descriptors.
I mean, you know the guy, right? So who/where is he? What's he made of? And just how did he manufacture the cosmos (Hint: Genesis's answers are definately incorrect ones)?
You're gonna wake-up in a smoothie, Mutha' Ucker.
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I "know" where you're going with this (pun intended).
I am of the opinion that Theists, when they say they "know God or Jesus or Mohammad, etc", have a different meaning for "know". It's a nebulous meaning like "Spirit" or "soul" or other religious terms. It's just bs. Utterly embarrassing bs.
Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov
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Immediatly after the Big Bang, the average particle energy was >1020Gev. Once it cooled down, (due to the expansion..) to about 1015Gev, the strong force seperated from the electroweak force. The universe then cooled to 102Gev, and now the electric force seperated from the weak and the universe was then a mix of leptons, quarks, gluons, and photons. The quarks and gluons then got together to form hadrons, which of course decayed into neutrons, protons, and leptons, the heavy leptons then decayed into electrons and nuetrinos.
But only after the particle energies was 10ev did hydorgen, helium, deuterium form, then of course came stars and heavier elements and the rest is history.
If at first an idea does not sound absurd, then there is no hope for it ~Albert Einstein
We all think your idea is crazy, the question is "Is it crazy enough?" ~Niels Bohr
as the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.-isaiah 55:9
ill put it in a more finite way, can i know how you think and do things? and you know how i think and do things?
i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name
and for the record god is nothing like man. and he is a spirit.
Yes, I can know how you think and do things, and you can know how I think and do things.
And what is a spirit? What material is it made of, how can we measure it?
Get with the spirit of the question asked!
We are afraid of the known and afraid of the unknown. That is our daily life and in that there is no hope, and therefore every form of philosophy, every form of theological concept, is merely an escape from the actual reality of what is. All outward forms of change brought about by wars, revolutions, reformations, laws and ideologies have failed completely to change the basic nature of man and therefore of society. - Thomas Jefferson
Damn.
Jill beat me to it.
Oh, before I forget:
Oh, come on Cap'n, you can do better. You know very well you didn't describe "creation", but the period following it.
We are afraid of the known and afraid of the unknown. That is our daily life and in that there is no hope, and therefore every form of philosophy, every form of theological concept, is merely an escape from the actual reality of what is. All outward forms of change brought about by wars, revolutions, reformations, laws and ideologies have failed completely to change the basic nature of man and therefore of society. - Thomas Jefferson
Do you even know what made in his image means?
gods spirit isnt made of anything, he simply exists, and if god in infinite you cant measure infinity.
i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name
You are being disingenuous and equating the Big Bang with god’s creation of the universe. Firstly, there is no evidence that a god was required to inaugurate this event. Secondly, cosmology has progressd beyond the Big Bang and is exploring two cyclic theories of the universe, namely Loop Quantum Gravity (LQG) and String Theory. It seems increasingly likely that one or other or a combination of the two will replace the Big Bang Theory as the dominant model of the universe. In neither theory does the universe have a beginning or an end.
These theories combine Einstein's Theory of General Relativity with equations of quantum physics not existing in Einstein's day and are mathematical descriptions establishing the existence of the Big Bounce … deducing properties of the earlier universe from which our own sprung and from which future universes will spring ad infinitum.
............................................................
"Humanity has the stars in its future, and that future is too important to be lost under the burden of juvenile folly and ignorant superstition". - Isaac Asimov
...And so where does God come into this picture, Cap? And what does he do?
You're gonna wake-up in a smoothie, Mutha' Ucker.
If I knew the period before it, I'd be in Sweden. I was describing the creation of the elements within the universe.
The laws governing the interactions.
If at first an idea does not sound absurd, then there is no hope for it ~Albert Einstein
We all think your idea is crazy, the question is "Is it crazy enough?" ~Niels Bohr
We are afraid of the known and afraid of the unknown. That is our daily life and in that there is no hope, and therefore every form of philosophy, every form of theological concept, is merely an escape from the actual reality of what is. All outward forms of change brought about by wars, revolutions, reformations, laws and ideologies have failed completely to change the basic nature of man and therefore of society. - Thomas Jefferson
More to the point, wouldn't some laws governing interaction have to exist before god in order for god to exist? If god is a Being, then some rule of interaction must have preceded god.
How does a random collection of nothing say "Hey, guys, lets get together and form a Being. A Perfect Being, no less and THEN we'll create a huge mess of stuff that 13 billion years later will arrive at something that resembles us".
In order for God to say "Let there be Light", there would have had to been some ordering of thoughts and things before he said it. Otherwise there is no thoughts to collect, or Logic to exercize.
Anyone who thinks this is a plausible explanation is a bit wacky, IMO.
Alternative: Logic is a Brute Fact and Something always existed it just changes States. No god required.
Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov
Why would I know? Why would I care? What are you babbling about?
Most likely...
This assumes God came into existance as opposed to always existing.
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.
If at first an idea does not sound absurd, then there is no hope for it ~Albert Einstein
We all think your idea is crazy, the question is "Is it crazy enough?" ~Niels Bohr
That's still not an explanation of any kind regarding how God works, Cap.
Nice try, though.
You're gonna wake-up in a smoothie, Mutha' Ucker.
Well, if you're a Christian, you claim to know and be in a personal relationship with the guy - so surely you must then know what he's like and how he operates?
Moreover, you claim to know he created the universe. So, how'd he do it?
You're gonna wake-up in a smoothie, Mutha' Ucker.
Don't know. Don't care. I assume you think this is some sort of argument against Christiantity. It aint. don't know why you think it is.
I was explaining how the creation happened, I don't know God 'works' or what you even mean by that.
If at first an idea does not sound absurd, then there is no hope for it ~Albert Einstein
We all think your idea is crazy, the question is "Is it crazy enough?" ~Niels Bohr
Well, maybe not assumes but posits. But, yes, it seems much more plausible that the the most raw and basic reality always existed and changed state into the BB then to suggest a Perfect Being always existed and then things went downhill from there.
Sure, we all can say that at any time. But, since this is a debate site; a forum in which to exchange thoughts, it doesn't seem very sporting of you to claim that and run away without explaining why you have a problem with my alternative.
Is this what it looks like when I pwn somene?
Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov
Well in the spirit of Leinbiz's question: 'Why is there something rather than nothing?'
According to current laws, 'nothing' can't exist (Quantum fluccuations etc...), that is because of current laws, however, if there are no laws, then the law of 'nothing' is unstable doesn't exist.
Now, how is God exempt? I can't really explain it but to me it's more likely that God always existed rather than something else, after all why would there be something in the first place?
If at first an idea does not sound absurd, then there is no hope for it ~Albert Einstein
We all think your idea is crazy, the question is "Is it crazy enough?" ~Niels Bohr
Oh, but it is an argument against christianity, or more specifically, the fact that you believe something with absolute certainty without a shred of evidence to support it.
If the bible is the word of God, and the bible is packed full of God's musings, how can you claim to not know his mind? How can any christian claim to know what God wants us to do, and also say they don't know his mind, simultaneously?
I know there's a greebly way you can talk your way out of it, since you're used to rationalising bullshit, and none of these are real questions, anyway. I know the answer. Because christians are afraid, just like everyone else, and they've found a security blanket that keeps the fear at bay, and no-one is going to take that away from them, no matter how much logic the rationalists can throw at them.
Plus they've found a community to belong to, and their beliefs are such a large part of their ID blah blah blah It's a rich tapestry of reasons, but my point is, you're still beautiful. I love everyone. Pink is my favourite color, and I dig tennis.
Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first.
I fancy playing God's advocate in this thread.
In answer to the original question:
There wasn't a "mechanism" by which God created the universe.
The theist claims that the most fundamental law of the universe is "What God wills happens" and everything else is contingent on it.
E.g. The laws of Physics hold because God wills the universe to be that way.
And ofcourse, he doesn't always will it because from time to time there are miracles.
Maybe they mean "know" in the sense that the villagers wanted those two angels sent outside so they could "know" them.
So the question becomes... You rape God. You rape God created the universe. You rape he loves you. Surely, then this will be no trouble for you...
But can't you see you are inserting a more complicated answer (a perfect being) as an unknown? You agreed that there mu8st have been laws in place in order for a god to exist in the first place, so why complicate your cosmology by saying:
1. There were basic laws in place
2. God - a perfect being popped into existence fully formed
3. God then created a long, complicated and convoluted process to create mankind over a process taking billions of years.
4. (If you are a religionist). God then contacted humanity through a miniscule amount of people (prophets) , who people have trouble knowing which one speaks for god and which one doesn't.
My explanation cuts it down to 2 premises and relies on the existing knowledge of our universe. It doesn't insert the omni-answer "god did it".
What is philosophically interesting about your approach is that since you agree laws were already in place, then God was just acting in accord with his Nature. That God had no choice in his options, since he was constrained by existing Laws: he didn't have Free Will. Otherwise, you will have to explain the mechanism that God is able to overturn the Laws that existed before him.
If I may be so bold: welcome to the fold. You're an atheist, you just don't realize it yet.
Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov
Maybe I'm off, but being an intelligent being that's also the most fundamental thing in the universe seems like a logic circuit with only one bit. God would have to be made of other fundamental things, or else be a simple and mindless force.
OK, but how did God first will that his Will would function? How did God - before anything made sense, any Law of Logic existed - say "When I will something, it will function as I will it."?
There would have had to have