So... let me see if I get this...

A priest goes up to a pulpit and says that people ought to love each other without judging, and therefore, I shouldn't point out how stupid it is to believe in god?

While I'm at it... am I to assume that you need a god story to figure out that human compassion is a good thing?  Or maybe I could just be a good person without all the genuflecting...

Yeah... that's what I'm going to do.

So glad to hear there are still cloth men who will stand up and admit that we've only got a short few decades of living that upon death will determine our fate for well beyond millions upon billions of years. Forever and all eternity, indeed !

And here I began to think they were all running from that silly notion.

Crazy me.

I realize you're trying to be nice, but, no.  All the "blessings" in my life have come directly from disobeying christianity.  Example - son from purposely screwing around while unmarried; freedom from fear for realizing the bible is just a book; etc.

Then you would actually be responsible for your life instead of relying on some deity.  I realize that this is a scary thought, but its really not all that hard to get the hang of once you try.

Again, I do realize you think you are trying to be nice, but get your motivations right.  You are trying to justify your belief.  You want agreement, and I imagine that the agreement of a declared atheist would be all the sweeter as you can then play the conqueror. 

Which one of us has a closed mind?  I think that you and I are both humans, and both have the same emotions.  You think my life is less worthwhile than yours because I don't believe in your particular fairy tale.

For what it's worth, you bigot, my grandfather died about a decade ago.  I spent several hours with him on his deathbed.  We had a deeply moving, warm, profound, and loving experience, recalling all the things we had done together.  We told each other "I love you."  (By the way, this atheist has known for years that telling your loved ones how you feel is a good idea.  Didn't need god for that.)  When he got too tired to talk anymore, we said goodbye, and we knew exactly what it meant.  I still have an amazing mix of bittersweet emotions when I recall the event, and I wouldn't trade the memory for anything.

Let me make this as clear as possible.  You can take your pious, bigoted condescension and sell it to someone who fell off the turnip truck yesterday.  I for one don't need you telling me that my life is anything less than yours.  You don't know the first thing about me, and for you to suggest that you have any idea what kind of profound experiences I have or have not had is indescribably pompous and arrogant.

Me god needs no other god. Don't be making a mockery and diminishing my wonderful awe, with some silly hocus pocus lame god. Hey, ever hear the words of the atheist jesus story dude?  "I and the cosmos (father ) are ONE!" Simple. Religion such as christianity is blasphemy, idol worship, so g-awe-d clueless, so very antichrist.

So sad, what that god of abe worship most often is. But hey, for some it is a beginning, to appreciating the awe. For some, Jesus can be a saving messenger, but for so many others it's a mental road block, as the church traditionally teaches idol worship. Geezz, YOU are the christ .... that was the the principal wise message of the atheistic jesus buddha.   

I feel sorry for you. It is sad.

I seriously doubt that.  

But you know nothing about my life. I enjoy my life. I am thrilled to see the universe for what it is and I feel bad for you because you live in a fantasy.

Your god whatever is totally imaginary.

I consider your priest actually to be one of the patients trying to run the hospital (the 7th floor usually).

Then you would never follow any god because of the ridiculous evidence that every religious follower and their holy books presents. As well you realize that the laws and rules of the catholic chruch are no different than any other religion prior to the catholic church. Not to judge others, to have compassion, to be good towards others....hey buddhism has the same rules and all of it doesn't require a belief in god (ok depends on the sect, but the origins of it does not require a god) and buddhism is 600 years younger than christianity. But hey you follow your beliefs. As for pascals wagers yeah you give 2 options your god or no god, except that's not the case, there is Allah, Mayan gods, Inca Gods, Native american Gods, Hindu Gods, Taoism, Buddhism, Judaism (if the jews are correct your fucked for idol worship and worshiping a false god as well....jesus will fuck you in the end in this senario) i mean we can go on and on and on with all the religions in the world. In the end it's no different no evidence for god, then I have no need to believe in one.

As for my life, it's full of love, friends and family, Joy and Happiness of waking up everyday not believing that this life is a test.

I thought it was sofa king we tar did.

Quote:

Feel bad that you all are missing out

aiia wrote: 

"I seriously doubt that."

Well, its true! Not trying to win over atheists as some

sort of prize etc... as someone suggested. Just being

faithful to my beliefs in sharing truth, as required by my

own conscience and goodwill.

Sincerely mean well folks, no ulterior motives. Not looking

for a debate, sorry!

Regarding explanation of Pascals wager...the math was making me dizzy.

However, accepting God is fine in the Catholic faith, does not

matter if you are Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, etc. As long as

you are sincerely being obedient to truth by your own conscience,

knowledge of truth and understanding.  Basically, it is not a worry in the wager.

The reality is simple: I want to be with infinite love beyond

all comprehension forever. To reject that, in whatever capacity

is rejecting God. Pascals wager-simply choosing to accept God's

love forever. If I am wrong, I am at peace knowing that I will

not know I was wrong.

The win=I get to continue in God's love, no end to what I have already,

which was my point in the first place, namely that this choice is a glimpse

of heaven, and I wanted to share that truth. God's love, awesome!

Don't miss it for the world or your own proud intellect.

and even more awesome love after this life, which is really a blessing folks.

Wow, what a deal/wager! It's a can't lose proposition, and I can accept God's

love with childlike faith, not worrying if I have the right path, one God, easy

math. Amen! 

"if today you hear His voice, harden not your heart"

I wouldn't worry too much about it.  If you should get caught, they'll just move you to another parish.

The biggest blessing i've ever experienced was letting go of mindless dogma.

You mean able to identify dogma, question it and NOT helpless to defend oneself against the all too common manipulation and coercion of religious marketing?

Sin is a stupid concept.

However, in the one profession where one should expect to find no (or at least the lowest concentration) of pedophiles, we find perhaps the greatest concentration ever.

And you as one who should (allegedly) exemplify the highest caliber of morality yet again display that christians have the least by making excuses for the many heinous crimes against children instead of apologizing for them. 

You're cool, sierra. Your primitive gibbering makes me feel like a time traveler.

You do know lying is a sin right?

Ah, then I'll be ok, I am, after all sincerely being obedient to truth by my own conscience. Gods, naturally, are not part of that truth, but I have accepted that.

Have you ever considered what "eternity" means? And how long "eternity" lasts? In the highly unlikely case you (or anybody) were to receive the "gift" of eternity, (s)he would, after a couple of trillions of years either lapse in utter stagnation or beg for oblivion. Eternity would be the worst kind of torture that could be inflicted upon any body or any soul: love becomes meaningless, knowledge becomes meaningless, hope becomes meaningless. Trapped in a prison of time, you would find no end to this torture: trillions of years are, after all, an infinitely small part of eternity.

So... "infinite love forever"? I'll pick oblivion over it any day. Which is cool, since "forever" is a fantasy, made up by humans who were too afraid of death to consider it, and mixed up "ought to be" with "is".

But today is most likely not the day for oblivion. Today is, most likely, a perfect day for a fantastic atheist experience, free from guilt and fear, and free to take the world exactly as it is. Seriously, I feel bad that you are missing out, Sierra.

Unless, of course, you are making a vindictive and capricious God which you do not worship angrier and angrier with your lack of acknowledgement of him and your instead turning towards the false Christian God.

Which was precisely the point being demonstrated. Which you ignored. Basic mutual exclusivity probability theory.

Way back in my fundy days I was taught that Christianity was about choosing the difficult road because comitting sin was easier than resisting the temptation to do so.

It has since become apparent that Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) is in fact, the easy road. Your post reflects that. It is far easier to accept the made up answers than it is to understand & ask the correct questions.

You are not going to understand this, but I was indoctrinated into this "most important thing ever" as a child.  So.  I guess you could say I have entertained it.  As I moved through the religion my parents believed, I could see through the transparencies...it contradicts itself left and right. Leaving this life was one of the most difficult things I've ever done, and I'm so glad to have done it...my life is fuller because of it.

A thinking person wonders:  Why would some god give us brains and then tell us not to think about anything?  Why would some god make everyone different and then tell one kind of person to make all others conform?  Why would some god have peoples all over the planet and have xtianity only in europe? (don't get snippy here...I'm talking about beginnings)

I could go on, but I don't really think you are going to read this.

The hypocritical nature of the judging of others (while stating out loud that only god can judge) made my stomach turn.  You, in this thread, judge all of us.  Fullness of life is not dependent on some god.  It depends solely on a person's actions, thoughts, and relationships. 

I, personally, like to have relationships with actual people...people that do not judge me, to be more specific.

I think you, Mr. Sierra, have missed the point.

Glad you had fun at daycare, sweetie.  I really am.  But the fact of the matter is that you're a shitty excuse for a Christian if you actually believe this.  For something like 1500 years (I don't believe in the Roman Catholic claim of Apostolic Succession, so add about four centuries to that for your own purposes) trumpeted to the world that it was the sole true spiritual authority on the Earth.  "No way to heaven but by me," was the official policy of pointy-hatted Italian prom queens for century upon century.

And now you come to us with this ecumenical bullshit.  It's weak.  You abandon your Bible, you abandon Augustine, you abandon Aquinas, but you keep your traditions, albeit without the Latin, and you really expect anybody to take you seriously?  I have an idea.  Why don't you tell your confessor, next time you meet up in the Magic Box of Forgiveness, that you think that everyone who's "obedient to the truth by [his] own conscience" is going to be okey-dokey with Big Sky Daddy in the End?  If he's cool with that, too, and everybody else all the way up the line to Ratzinger himself, then you might as well all become Animists or Muslims or Shintoists.  I much prefer fire-breathing Baptists to appeasement-minded milksops like you.  At least they've got the courage of their convictions.  

You were saying that I am wrong on Catholic Church teaching? 

Well, here it is from the Catholic Catechism on other religions

and salvation with belief in God, refuting your false arguments

on Pascals Wager. One God, easy math, don't have to worry

about picking the right one according to the Catholic Church

teaching, which is the Church Jesus Himself started. Mt. 16;18-19

"Outside the Church there is no salvation" (846-848)

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?  Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Here is the link with more details on the issue: the Church and non-Christians:

http://www.catholicdoors.com/catechis/cat0781.htm#839

The truth is, if you really studied the Catholic Church teaching with an open mind and heart, as many scholars have,

you would discover the great blessing of truth, and the peace that comes in living in that truth.

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Acts 4:12, in reference to Jesus Christ.  Now shut the fuck up.

It doesn't refute anything. It is an assertion made by people unsubstantiated by any evidence (since none can exist).

If that to you represents refutation (look it up in a dictionary) then your mind is garbled, probably beyond repair. Given your obvious mental state you have a bloody cheek coming here claiming to be enlightening anybody about anything. What is it about you people? You have no respect for intelligence. You have no concept of rationality. Have you no shame either?

Allow me to paraphrase for DG.

Your bet is only a safe bet if there are only two options.  That the specific god you think exists actually does exist and you are doing what it wants you to do to make it happy or nothing happens to you because that specific god does not exist.  No god exists.  You just pass away into oblivion.

The GLARING third possibility is that we are all wrong and we will all be punished for not doing the right thing by this hypothetical omniscient being that we are not aware actually does exist.  Be it Odin, Thor, Baal, etc.

Capisce?

Seriously, I thought you were not supposed to judge us but that is exactly what you are doing.

1- You feel bad for us. Why? You don't know us, so how can you be judgmental about out choices.

2- Perhaps what you find as a blessing would seem like an Inquisition rack to most of us.

3- And again you are judging us by your standard, you could be in our shoes. Pleeeezze!!

I also had an alcoholic father who my mother divorced. We still kept in touch until his early death from organ failure when he was 59. My sister and I always showed him love though we despised his choices. Your priest friend realized a little late about caring about people. It is a hard thing to do especially with a father that is a self centered drunk. Even in his talk about him your priest showed he had no understanding of alcoholism, he was weak, etc.

You really need to listen much closer to what your priest friend said in that video. He didn't show much wisdom by his statements.

Sorry, I don't buy into the idea of a sinner for these actions by the pervert priests, they were unlawful, disgusting, outrageous, uncivilized, and cruel. Painting the picture any other way gives validation to the actions these self-centered evil monsters did to children. Hiding them from punishment as the Catholic Church has done is a crime as well. Those involved in the cover up should be charged with aiding and abetting after the fact.

Listen, I spent years studying theology and one thing you need to grasp is you continue to miss the point your man Jesus is said to have promoted. Don't judge people, it's not your job. You continue to make assumptions that we are some how lesser beings then people who accept the derived warped religion severely altered from the volcano god of Yahweh. You have no idea about us at all. Yes we reject your distorted derived religion that even the original Yahweh believers tell you is not true. We have good reasons to do so. It's not true. Use your mind not the warm fuzzy feeling you get from emotionalism.

You will have to find out for yourself someday that you are the one who has a closed mind, closed to reason and understanding. I see no point in beating on you over your beliefs in myths and legends, it will do no good. You are another one that is in a Matrix that thinks that he is eating steak, when in fact it is not real. Good Luck.

Exactly what is it that motivated you to post the link about the priest and your "fantastic Catholic experience"? You thought it would do what, bring comments of gee maybe there is something to this Jesus thing. You are being deceitful to yourself if you think your reasons didn't include an attempt to influence atheists to reconsider their stance. Most of us here have been hard core Christians, some with advanced training. I understand you mean well from your perspective, but so too have others over the centuries including those of your Catholic faith.

Posting what you did to an atheist forum like this will always get you a debate and a challenge to your beliefs. In reading your other comments you are weak on the actual teaching of the Catholic Church. It's far more complicated than your simple explanation of who is part of the church. Perhaps you should listen to what Benedict has to say about it. You are quoting only the parts that make the Church look like it is conciliatory to disparate beliefs but seem to ignore the parts regarding heresy and false teaching.

Burmashave.

What a warped and arrogant little fucker. No redeeming feature whatsoever. And what a great advertisement for the absolute necessity to eliminate religion - it validates the most disgustingly vindictive, sanctimonious and ignorant behaviour in the minds of slimeballs to whom that kind of thing appeals.

One feels dirty just being in their company.

First, I believe that can win you a nice little avatar image with a nice little crapping troll on it (mods?).

Second, I have always found it to be quite appalling that a person that does terrible things to others can simply quote this poem and be absolved of their quilt and such.  I venture to say they tend to repeat those deeds and just come back for a few more 'hail mary's'.  Pretty lame.  This mentality places all responsibility for ones actions squarely NOT on the actioner.  I'm in favor of actual personal responsibility.

Third, your condescension and goading are annoying and rediculous.  This is your personal invitation to go away.

Fourth, I don't think you know the definition of the word "indisputable".