Sci-Fi drought.

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Sci-Fi drought.

...Seriously. Where has all the awesome science fiction gone these days? Maybe it's just me, but t seems like it's been a way long time since any original sci-fi has been thrust into the world. Films, TV shows and books are mostly just about re-hashing popular franchises; the only medium to be regularly pumping-out new universes to explore is, well, video games (surprisingly enough).

Am I just missing the good stuff somehow? Or does anyone know of something big on the horizon for us sci-fi nuts?

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"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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Actually, the inspiration

Actually, the inspiration for Star Wars was Kurosowa's "The Hidden Fortress" - it's basically a martial arts movie with a SF background.

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MattShizzle wrote:Actually,

MattShizzle wrote:

Actually, the inspiration for Star Wars was Kurosowa's "The Hidden Fortress" - it's basically a martial arts movie with a SF background.

That was what was partly the inspiration, but Dune is much more heavily borrowed from. Lucas didn't steal from just one source, but a few.

Check this out Shizzle, it has an easy to read breakdown of the references. http://www.moongadget.com/origins/dune.html

 

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Thanks folks for your

Thanks folks for your opinions on the Wheel of time. Sorry thread author for using your thread to discuss a slightly unrelated topic.

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I like the Dune books

I like the Dune books generally.

I did get really hooked on Babylon 5 - but only really appreciated it when I watched thru the whole series, since they had such a great story arc which was difficult to follow just catching individual episodes. I expected BSG to be similar, but gave up on season 1. I admit there can be a problem, once I pick up on a number of aspects of a series which annoy me, I tend to be sensitized to those things and keep getting progressively pissed-off every time I get a hint of them in subsequent episodes, even if they are better integrated into the story arc than initially.

As I commented previously, my own perception of BSG, probably based on a too-limited sampling, left me with very much the impression of a very 'formulaic' series, the whole Cylon thing just did not work for me at all, along with the impression of so much tedious political intrigue - I wanted to watch an SF series, not a lame version of West Wing with some space-ships thrown in. Probably a very unfair judgement overall, but that was one of the impressions I was left with. IMHO the parallels with current issues and politics and religions were far too close, it was so unlikely that so far in the future that the details of politics and religions would be so similar to current ones. Whereas in all the SG-1 religions clearly were very different to current ones in many details, so I was easier to focus on the broader problems of religions in general. The idea I picked up from early episodes of BSG that Christianity and its doctrines would persist so recognisably over such a span of time and changes in setting, from Earth to a space-faring environment, was totally unbelievable to me.

There were some grossly silly science behind some of the plot lines - there was something about a search for water in one episode which made no sense to me in the light of where we find water/ice in and around star-systems which further damaged my feeling about the series.

Maybe I should give BSG another chance sometime in the future, considering how many people who I share some tastes and ideas with like it so much.

SG-1 did have quite a number of somewhat ho-hum episodes, low periods, not unexpected over 10 seasons, and I can see how someone less tuned into the characters and themes could give up on it, much as I gave up on BSG. It did have good story arcs, but many episodes did not add much to them. At its best, it used the setup to explore the implications of a whole range of different ways of organizing societies, and the motivations to power and control, especially involving the way religious beliefs and doctrine could lead to very harmful effects on societies.

Farscape is good, I hope my video rental service sorts out their mis-numbering of season two DVDs so I can get back to it and get the actual episodes I want in the right sequence... Cool that it was shot here in Australia too.

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MattShizzle wrote:Actually,

MattShizzle wrote:

Actually, the inspiration for Star Wars was Kurosowa's "The Hidden Fortress" - it's basically a martial arts movie with a SF background.

as someone who has seen "the hidden fortress" several times, i'd like to know what the SF background is.  it's a made-up story but pretty realistic, if a little fable-like.  no SF elements.  no substantial martial arts either, despite the presence of the great chambara actor toshiro mifune.

i think the only element lucas borrowed from kurosawa was smuggling the princess to safety.  the parallels with dune, however, are glaring: a galactic empire, a desert planet, the striking similarities between mentats and jedis.  also, when the prequels came out (which, according to lucas, were written in their genesis forms the same time as the original films) and we see a trade federation, the similarities multiply.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
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I meant Star Wars was

I meant Star Wars was basically a martial arts movie with a SF background.


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MattShizzle wrote:I meant

MattShizzle wrote:

I meant Star Wars was basically a martial arts movie with a SF background.

and it fails miserably at both.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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MattShizzle wrote:I meant

MattShizzle wrote:

I meant Star Wars was basically a martial arts movie with a SF background.

I disagree wholeheartedly with that assessment, but its your opinion, so I guess you can hold on to it. Thoughtcrime isn't enforcible....YET. The martial arts formula of becoming a man, learning new skills, and using them to fight evil is really just a version of the hero's quest, which Dune also follows. Plus, there was no montage in Star Wars...most martial arts films need a good montage imho.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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Yeah... if Star Wars is

Yeah... if Star Wars is based on the martial arts formula, so is The Cutting Edge.  And it does have a montage.

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BobSpence1 wrote:I like the

BobSpence1 wrote:

I like the Dune books generally.

I did get really hooked on Babylon 5 - but only really appreciated it when I watched thru the whole series, since they had such a great story arc which was difficult to follow just catching individual episodes. I expected BSG to be similar, but gave up on season 1. I admit there can be a problem, once I pick up on a number of aspects of a series which annoy me, I tend to be sensitized to those things and keep getting progressively pissed-off every time I get a hint of them in subsequent episodes, even if they are better integrated into the story arc than initially.

As I commented previously, my own perception of BSG, probably based on a too-limited sampling, left me with very much the impression of a very 'formulaic' series, the whole Cylon thing just did not work for me at all, along with the impression of so much tedious political intrigue - I wanted to watch an SF series, not a lame version of West Wing with some space-ships thrown in. Probably a very unfair judgement overall, but that was one of the impressions I was left with. IMHO the parallels with current issues and politics and religions were far too close, it was so unlikely that so far in the future that the details of politics and religions would be so similar to current ones. Whereas in all the SG-1 religions clearly were very different to current ones in many details, so I was easier to focus on the broader problems of religions in general. The idea I picked up from early episodes of BSG that Christianity and its doctrines would persist so recognisably over such a span of time and changes in setting, from Earth to a space-faring environment, was totally unbelievable to me.

There were some grossly silly science behind some of the plot lines - there was something about a search for water in one episode which made no sense to me in the light of where we find water/ice in and around star-systems which further damaged my feeling about the series.

Maybe I should give BSG another chance sometime in the future, considering how many people who I share some tastes and ideas with like it so much.

SG-1 did have quite a number of somewhat ho-hum episodes, low periods, not unexpected over 10 seasons, and I can see how someone less tuned into the characters and themes could give up on it, much as I gave up on BSG. It did have good story arcs, but many episodes did not add much to them. At its best, it used the setup to explore the implications of a whole range of different ways of organizing societies, and the motivations to power and control, especially involving the way religious beliefs and doctrine could lead to very harmful effects on societies.

Farscape is good, I hope my video rental service sorts out their mis-numbering of season two DVDs so I can get back to it and get the actual episodes I want in the right sequence... Cool that it was shot here in Australia too.

Well said. Stargate does do a good job of dealing with unskeptical superstitious people of varied cultures and replacing their "magical or religious" explanations to scientific ones. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of filler and sometimes ludicrous storylines, but the Ori arc was quite effective as exposing dangerous dogma and people bent on control rather than spirituality.

As for BSG, I guess I can understand your fault finding in season 1, I had to drag myself through Babylon 5 season 1 because I had heard it didn't get good until the second season. The Christianity thread in BSG really isn't overtly stated at all. Its Cylon-Monotheism versus Human-Polytheist Greek/Roman inspired Gods. You have to wait till the final season to get more messianic overtones, but different strokes for different folks I suppose. I wrote a thread about the BSG religion wars and there was also some thread about TNG's Captain Picard and BSG's Admiral Adama and who was the best atheist leader. It is cool to have a sci fi show where the central character is a skeptical atheist. I guess thats one of the reasons I watch the Stargate shows, because Science and logic are relied on to solve problems. Plus, the main characters are scientists, which is cool, even if Dr. Rodney McKay is a wet blanket, he is still a genius.

 

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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Just for the record, I have

Just for the record, I have nothing against messianic plots.  I think it's a good story line.  I mean... duh.  Every other religion in the world since the beginning of religion has had a messiah.  People like that shit.  I enjoyed the Matrix more than I thought I would, simply because I thought it was a pretty good take on a messiah plot.  Kind of neat substituting a human triumphing over its own creation for a god saving his creation.

For me, unless it's specifically promoting Christianity, I think messiah plots make for pretty good sci fi.  After all, I did just say that Dune was the best sci fi series ever, and it's nothing if not a messiah story.

 

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iwbiek wrote:MattShizzle

iwbiek wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:

Actually, the inspiration for Star Wars was Kurosowa's "The Hidden Fortress" - it's basically a martial arts movie with a SF background.

as someone who has seen "the hidden fortress" several times, i'd like to know what the SF background is.  it's a made-up story but pretty realistic, if a little fable-like.  no SF elements.  no substantial martial arts either, despite the presence of the great chambara actor toshiro mifune.

i think the only element lucas borrowed from kurosawa was smuggling the princess to safety.  the parallels with dune, however, are glaring: a galactic empire, a desert planet, the striking similarities between mentats and jedis.  also, when the prequels came out (which, according to lucas, were written in their genesis forms the same time as the original films) and we see a trade federation, the similarities multiply.

I prefer Throne of Blood/Spider's Web Castle myself.  Toshiro had bigger balls than any actor in history, including Jackie Chan, when he agreed to let Kurosawa have archers shoot dozens of arrows at him, about a tenth of which actually struck his (admittedly well-armored) torso.  If those things were sharp enough to embed themselves in the boards under his clothes, they were definitely sharp enough to pierce his throat.  Greatest action scene of all time.

And as regards montages, well shit.  You gotta have a montage...

Montage!  (Montage!) You gotta have a Montaaaage!  (Montage!)

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Always fade out in a

Always fade out in a montage.... it makes it seem like more time has passssseeeeddddd.....

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I was going to quote the

I was going to quote the song, but I just wanted to see if loyal Team America fans would oblige me unsolicited. America....Fuck Yeah! Lick My Ass and suck on my balls!

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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Hambydammit wrote:Just for

Hambydammit wrote:

Just for the record, I have nothing against messianic plots.  I think it's a good story line.  I mean... duh.  Every other religion in the world since the beginning of religion has had a messiah.  People like that shit.  I enjoyed the Matrix more than I thought I would, simply because I thought it was a pretty good take on a messiah plot.  Kind of neat substituting a human triumphing over its own creation for a god saving his creation.

For me, unless it's specifically promoting Christianity, I think messiah plots make for pretty good sci fi.  After all, I did just say that Dune was the best sci fi series ever, and it's nothing if not a messiah story.

 

Yea, even the Matrix was inspired by Dune, or at least shows some similarities. From Wiki:Matrix Trilogy

The Matrix and its sequels are similar to Dune in that both series feature unwitting messiahs as the main protagonists. Like Paul Atreides from Dune, characters are trapped by their destiny. Both series contain religious overtones, something more evident in the two sequels to The Matrix. The history of Dune features a great campaign against machines, similar to Zion's war against the machines. Neo loses his eyes in Revolutions but can still see, resembling Paul's ability to see after he loses his eyes. Neo also sacrifices himself to save humanity after losing his lover Trinity. This somewhat echoes Paul walking into the desert immediately after Chani dies giving birth to the twins, whom Paul knows will save humanity. Dune has a distinct ecological theme in that humans need water which kills worms, but humans need spice from the worms. In The Matrix, it is briefly touched upon that humans and machines need to coexist, and who is in control is often impossible to determine. Moreover, the Mentat Miles Teg in Heretics of Dune is able to perceive his environment in slow motion like Neo in The Matrix's bullet time. The oracle from the Matrix trilogy possessed prescience.

 

Oh and the cutting edge was pretty good for an early 90s ice skating romantic comedy. I mean it paved the way for homoerotic ice skating comedy Blades of Glory starring Will Ferrell. Will Ferrell starred with Nicole Kidman in Bewitched, Nicole Kidman starred with Sean Penn in The Interpreter, and Sean Penn starred with Kevin Bacon in Mystic River. Kevin Bacon is behind every piece of great cinema...and Footloose!

 

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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HeyZeusCreaseToe wrote: Yea,

HeyZeusCreaseToe wrote:

 Yea, even the Matrix was inspired by Dune, or at least shows some similarities. From Wiki:Matrix Trilogy

The Matrix and its sequels are similar to Dune in that both series feature unwitting messiahs as the main protagonists. Like Paul Atreides from Dune, characters are trapped by their destiny. Both series contain religious overtones, something more evident in the two sequels to The Matrix. The history of Dune features a great campaign against machines, similar to Zion's war against the machines. Neo loses his eyes in Revolutions but can still see, resembling Paul's ability to see after he loses his eyes. Neo also sacrifices himself to save humanity after losing his lover Trinity. This somewhat echoes Paul walking into the desert immediately after Chani dies giving birth to the twins, whom Paul knows will save humanity. Dune has a distinct ecological theme in that humans need water which kills worms, but humans need spice from the worms. In The Matrix, it is briefly touched upon that humans and machines need to coexist, and who is in control is often impossible to determine. Moreover, the Mentat Miles Teg in Heretics of Dune is able to perceive his environment in slow motion like Neo in The Matrix's bullet time. The oracle from the Matrix trilogy possessed prescience.

 

 

I totally forgot about Miles Teg from Heretics.  Motherfucker decapitated a dude with a karate chop.  That shit should have been in The Matrix.

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MattShizzle wrote:I meant

MattShizzle wrote:

I meant Star Wars was basically a martial arts movie with a SF background.

 

I've always been more inclined towards taking Star Wars as Fantasy that just happens to have lasers kicking around Smiling

 

M

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DamnDirtyApe wrote:I prefer

DamnDirtyApe wrote:

I prefer Throne of Blood/Spider's Web Castle myself.  Toshiro had bigger balls than any actor in history, including Jackie Chan, when he agreed to let Kurosawa have archers shoot dozens of arrows at him, about a tenth of which actually struck his (admittedly well-armored) torso.  If those things were sharp enough to embed themselves in the boards under his clothes, they were definitely sharp enough to pierce his throat.  Greatest action scene of all time.

And as regards montages, well shit.  You gotta have a montage...

Montage!  (Montage!) You gotta have a Montaaaage!  (Montage!)

also an excellent film, with a lot of kabuki elements.  still, not what i would call a martial arts film.  a martial arts film is one in which a hero's skills at fighting are critical to the plot.  there are basically two major types of asian martial arts films: hong kong kung fu films and japanese chambara films.  i love kung fu movies but they all have basically the same plot (revenge) and the fighting is often completely unrealistic.  chambara films have much more depth, much more variety of plot, and much more realistic (though not completely realistic) depictions of fighting, usually kendo and iaido.  neither "hidden fortress" nor "throne of blood" are chambara films.  the most famous chambara films are probably "yojimbo," "sanjuro," the "samurai" trilogy, and the zatoichi and lone wolf and cub series (both of which involved the great shintaro katsu and, in their later installments, clearly borrowed from kung fu films).

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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DamnDirtyApe wrote:And as

DamnDirtyApe wrote:

And as regards montages, well shit.  You gotta have a montage...

Montage!  (Montage!) You gotta have a Montaaaage!  (Montage!)

A montage is insufficient, however. Attack of the Clones had a montage, and it almost killed me, as I choked on my own vomit.

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nigelTheBold

nigelTheBold wrote:

DamnDirtyApe wrote:

And as regards montages, well shit.  You gotta have a montage...

Montage!  (Montage!) You gotta have a Montaaaage!  (Montage!)

A montage is insufficient, however. Attack of the Clones had a montage, and it almost killed me, as I choked on my own vomit.

Oh yeah, it was definitely the montage that made Attack of the Clones suck.  

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The Star Trek series were by

The Star Trek series were by far my most favorite sci-fi series and then came BSG and I liked it as well. I started to watch the Terminator series but it was showing on bad time. Star Trek:TNG, Voyager, and DS9 are such good series it's no wonder there was a hole subculture made out of them. I was renting DS9 threw summer when i didn't have school (and when blockbuster had them for 99 cents a dvd) and I made it all the way to season 5 but seasons 6 and 7 are regularly priced dvd's so i'd have to spend a lot of money just to sit down for a weekend and watch them. It was also really suprising how they made DS9 good off the skeptical concept of "their on a space station the majority of the time".


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DamnDirtyApe

DamnDirtyApe wrote:

nigelTheBold wrote:

DamnDirtyApe wrote:

And as regards montages, well shit.  You gotta have a montage...

Montage!  (Montage!) You gotta have a Montaaaage!  (Montage!)

A montage is insufficient, however. Attack of the Clones had a montage, and it almost killed me, as I choked on my own vomit.

Oh yeah, it was definitely the montage that made Attack of the Clones suck.  

Is that sarcasm?  I'm fairly certain it sucked because Star Wars, as a rule, sucks.

Oh, and Kevin, we're all missing the good stuff.

 

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Thomathy wrote:DamnDirtyApe

Thomathy wrote:

DamnDirtyApe wrote:

nigelTheBold wrote:

DamnDirtyApe wrote:

And as regards montages, well shit.  You gotta have a montage...

Montage!  (Montage!) You gotta have a Montaaaage!  (Montage!)

A montage is insufficient, however. Attack of the Clones had a montage, and it almost killed me, as I choked on my own vomit.

Oh yeah, it was definitely the montage that made Attack of the Clones suck.  

Is that sarcasm?  I'm fairly certain it sucked because Star Wars, as a rule, sucks.

Oh, and Kevin, we're all missing the good stuff.

 

In your opinion star wars, as a rule, sucks. Alot of people with similarly refined taste in film would strongly disagree.

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Jello wrote: In your opinion

Jello wrote:

In your opinion star wars, as a rule, sucks. Alot of people with similarly refined taste in film would strongly disagree.

I'm talking about all things Star Wars.  If we're talking only about the first three films, I found them very entertaining.  If we're talking about the collection of films and novels and whatever else, they, together, form suckage.  They form suckage in the same way that only the whole of R.a. Salvatore's works can.  (If you don't know R.a. Salvatore, don't try to.)

BigUniverse wrote,

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Thomathy wrote:Is that

Thomathy wrote:

Is that sarcasm?  I'm fairly certain it sucked because Star Wars, as a rule, sucks.

Well in the grand sense of things, you're right, of course.  Star Wars is easily digestible by children and the blueprint for every gimmicky, toy-selling, blockbuster trend in the Western world.  But I'm hardly alone in preferring the first trilogy to most of what passes for more thought-provoking Sci-Fi we get today.  Science Fact is how I draw a paycheck.  As long as it's genuinely entertaining, I can accept gimmicky kid's stuff with the occasional nod to the adults in the audience.  The only thing that bothers me is half-measures in between big action and serious contemplation.  The Matrix is the prime example of this, but I think most of the current successes in the genre err in this way to some degree.

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DamnDirtyApe wrote:Thomathy

DamnDirtyApe wrote:

Thomathy wrote:

Is that sarcasm?  I'm fairly certain it sucked because Star Wars, as a rule, sucks.

Well in the grand sense of things, you're right, of course.  Star Wars is easily digestible by children and the blueprint for every gimmicky, toy-selling, blockbuster trend in the Western world.  But I'm hardly alone in preferring the first trilogy to most of what passes for more thought-provoking Sci-Fi we get today.  Science Fact is how I draw a paycheck.  As long as it's genuinely entertaining, I can accept gimmicky kid's stuff with the occasional nod to the adults in the audience.  The only thing that bothers me is half-measures in between big action and serious contemplation.  The Matrix is the prime example of this, but I think most of the current successes in the genre err in this way to some degree.

I agree.


 

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Thomathy wrote:They form

Thomathy wrote:

They form suckage in the same way that only the whole of R.a. Salvatore's works can.  (If you don't know R.a. Salvatore, don't try to.)

really?  because i had a buddy in college who constantly recommended the dark elf trilogy to me.  i never read it but he was a pretty sharp guy whose tastes were usually similar to mine.  i don't know.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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since fantasy has creeped in

since fantasy has creeped in a little bit and since we're mentioning bad writers, i would just like to say i fucking hate raymond e. feist.  i've never read any of his books.  no, i hate him for lending his name and franchise to quite possibly the shittiest pc game i ever owned as a kid, "betrayal at krondor."  anybody else get duped into that suckfest?  also, i knew a guy in high school who was obsessed with raymond e. feist and robert jordan, and he was a world-class asshole.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:Thomathy

iwbiek wrote:

Thomathy wrote:

They form suckage in the same way that only the whole of R.a. Salvatore's works can.  (If you don't know R.a. Salvatore, don't try to.)

really?  because i had a buddy in college who constantly recommended the dark elf trilogy to me.  i never read it but he was a pretty sharp guy whose tastes were usually similar to mine.  i don't know.

since fantasy has creeped in a little bit and since we're mentioning bad writers, i would just like to say i fucking hate raymond e. feist.  i've never read any of his books.  no, i hate him for lending his name and franchise to quite possibly the shittiest pc game i ever owned as a kid, "betrayal at krondor."  anybody else get duped into that suckfest?  also, i knew a guy in high school who was obsessed with raymond e. feist and robert jordan, and he was a world-class asshole.

R.a. Salvatore sucks.  Actually, it might not be fair to compare the whole of Star Wars to his work; he might be in a category of suck all his own.

I have never read Feist and Hamby summed up Jordan well enough.

Of course fantasy and sci-fi have some crossover so it should have been expected that literature would bleed into a discussion about television sci-fi shows.  I think everyone is just noticing that there is a severe lack of both good sci-fi and fantasy literature and television. 

I don't watch television anymore, so I haven't noticed or been exposed to just how bad it is, but as an avid reader of fantasy and sci-fi ((of some of the best (and worst) written)) I am especially aware of just how bad it is.  There is only one author I am currently reading for who's publications I anxiously await: Steven Erikson.  If something good can't come along before he stops writting his series, I believe the genres are doomed to become (poorly) regurgitated stories.

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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Saying that Salvatore is a

Saying that Salvatore is a good fantasy writer is a lot like saying that C.S. Lewis was a pretty good apologist.  Apologists, by definition, are using bad logic to reach a bad conclusion.  In the same way, any fantasy book based even loosely on Dungeons and Dragons is using a bad format to produce a mediocre book at best.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not opposed to D&D.  I played it as a kid, and even a little bit as an adult when it got really popular about a decade ago.  It's pretty fun, and engages the creative thinking parts of the brain a lot more than watching TV or playing a video game.  I think it would be neat if more kids played this kind of game.  However, the nature of the game is such that any attempts to immortalize it in novel form produce an exercise in cliche, melodrama, and formula.  Gary Gygax is a very bad man for inventing the D&D novel.

Ed Greenwood, Gary Gygax, R.A. Salvatore, and pretty much anyone else with their name on the same cover as "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons" should be avoided at all costs.

 

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Hambydammit wrote:Ed

Hambydammit wrote:

Ed Greenwood, Gary Gygax, R.A. Salvatore, and pretty much anyone else with their name on the same cover as "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons" should be avoided at all costs.

Wait a minute.  Are you saying that anything by Gary Gygax should be avoided because one of the things he did was with D&D novels?

If you are, sir, I will have to challenge you to a duel.

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Nope.  Not what I meant to

Nope.  Not what I meant to say.  I see that I was unclear.  Let me rephrase.

Gygax, et al, should be avoided at all costs when the potential encounter involves reading a book authored by any one of them that has "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons" on the front.

Put simply, Gygax invented a great game.  He's a shitty author.  All books in the AD&D genre are shitty.  Nobody should ever waste their life reading one of them.  Just play the game instead if you like magic and spells and fireballs.

If we must duel over the merit of AD&D books, then so be it.  I stand resolute.

 

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By the way, nice

By the way, nice hat.

Smiling

 

(Didn't think I'd remember?)

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False alarm about the hat. 

False alarm about the hat.  Nothing to see here, folks... move along.  Move along.  I thought for a minute I'd won myself a friendly wager.  Turns out I was mistaken.

 

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Hambydammit wrote:False

Hambydammit wrote:

False alarm about the hat.  Nothing to see here, folks... move along.  Move along.  I thought for a minute I'd won myself a friendly wager.  Turns out I was mistaken.

haha.  You haven't caught me yet old man!  Sticking out tongue

Hambydammit wrote:

He's a shitty author.

You must not have ever read Gygax's Gord the Rogue series I take it?

 

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Quote:You must not have ever

Quote:
You must not have ever read Gygax's Gord the Rogue series I take it?

Back in the day, I probably read fifty D&D novels.  To be honest, they all run together like a Kung Fu Movie marathon in my head.  Off the top of my head, I can't really recall which Gygax I read.  To me, Gygax would have made a half decent horror author.  His descriptions of gore and carnage were more fitting for a slasher novel than fantasy.  His books were just so damn formula... Then again, the whole genre is formula.

 

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Sunshine and Event Horizon

nigelTheBold wrote:
All the SF for which I've held out hope have turned out to being gaseous mounds of fetid rank boring pretentious cheese (yeah, I'm looking at you, Sunshine, and your boring-assed friend The Fountain, too).

I liked Sunshine, but maybe that was because it looked good with my 1080p / Blu-ray setup.  I like sci-fi mixed with a little horror, so maybe that has a little to do with it.  For example, Event Horizon was entertaining to me too.  Then again, it does not take much to entertain me.  I do not watch TV regularly, so any series of moving pictures will capture my interest.

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Hi guys. I've wanted to

Hi guys. I've wanted to quote about a million other people here, and reply directly to some points raised, but I felt I had to finish the thread first, and so, now I'll just chime in with some more general 2 cents.

Firstly, I like Star Wars. I grew up with it, and have a sort of emotional attachment to the franchise. That said, like Hamby said about the D&D author-guys, being good at one thing, doesn't make you good at everything, and George Lucas may have an eye for design, and be good at executive producing, but he's a shitty director, and even shitty'er screen writer: the stories are okay, if rather banal, but the dialogue (when he writes it himself, as in the prequels), is absolutely terrible. I can see that, regardless of whatever childhood affections I may hold for SW.

Many of the SW Lucasarts computergames I have enjoyed thoroughly (X-Wing Alliance, and The Jedi Knight series mostly). so some SW beyond the original trilogy is okay, as far as I'm concerned.

I too have shared Kevin's annoyance with the lack of good Sci Fi from time to time, but I think it's mostly because I'm such a genre-fan that I'd love for Holywood to produce 95% Sci Fi, and since that's not the case, it's no surprise that the really good movies (and TV shows for that matter) only come around once every 5 years or so. If you wanted more, alot would have to be produced, because movies and TV shows, like all art, is like everything else in life: 90% will always, always be shit.

On the subject of Roleplaying games (Hamby said something along the lines of; D&D = good, D&D novels = banal clichés). I've always felt that the beauty of RPG's was that they drew unashamed from every simple and banal cliché in story telling and imaginary world building. It allows you to emerge yourself into it "on the fly" as it were, and to quickly create fantasies for you and a group of friends that everyone can readily relate to. This is what stereotype and cliché does best: immediately give everyone the same mental image. So what makes RPG's good, often makes more "deep" medias, like novels, bad.

And finally, since the thread has turned to literature as well, I want to mention Iain M. Banks. I have long considered starting a thread were I give a rundown of why I like him so much, and why I think he would be very appealing to the Sci Fi fans here. He is one of the best authors of Sci Fi around, from my perspective. Look out for that thread, as I plan to put it up here soon. Just have to make a concise, short(ish) presentation of his work, without too many spoilers, and as I'm sure many of you have already noticed, short and concise posts is not my forté; I do tend to ramble on rather excessively... Sorry for that by the way.

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Thomathy wrote:Jello wrote:

Thomathy wrote:

Jello wrote:

In your opinion star wars, as a rule, sucks. Alot of people with similarly refined taste in film would strongly disagree.

I'm talking about all things Star Wars.  If we're talking only about the first three films, I found them very entertaining.  If we're talking about the collection of films and novels and whatever else, they, together, form suckage.  They form suckage in the same way that only the whole of R.a. Salvatore's works can.  (If you don't know R.a. Salvatore, don't try to.)

Yeah, I'll agree with that. Except for the action figures. They ruled!! Back in the day, anyway.

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Jello wrote:Yeah, I'll agree

Jello wrote:

Yeah, I'll agree with that. Except for the action figures. They ruled!! Back in the day, anyway.

 

Err... yes... back in the day...

 

*Glances over at the boba fett figurine on a nearby shelf*

 

You never out grow the Fett, man!

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all by myself

There may not be any great originial Sci-Fi shows right now, however I personally am loving the Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles, yeah sure there are some minor mistakes (time travel tends to do that it seems) however over all it's a good series, that even draws back on the movies. Beyond that Farscape I have enjoyed and a few others, but recently there hasn't been that many good Sci-Fi, I can't get into BSG, Jericho or Earth Final conflict guess when the US is doing badly the Sci-Fi drops, when they are doing well, then it's ok to let the imagination go. However I am hoping that things improve.


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Nikolaj wrote:Many of the SW

Nikolaj wrote:

Many of the SW Lucasarts computergames I have enjoyed thoroughly (X-Wing Alliance, and The Jedi Knight series mostly). so some SW beyond the original trilogy is okay, as far as I'm concerned.

TIE fighter!  when i was a kid, no game could top TIE fighter!  i played the shit out of that game, completing all the secret missions and everything (my guy had the whole array of tatoos on his arm).  then i got x-wing (which actually came before TIE fighter) and thought it sucked the big one.

 

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
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bobspence1 wrote:Just about

bobspence1 wrote:

Just about everything by Iain M Banks - nice tightly written hard SciFi in a complex well imagined setting. He also writes a series of harder to classify works as Iain Banks, not quite so sure about these, I've only read a couple.

In fantasy, one of my favourite authors is Stephen Donaldson - I read LOTR after reading his Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, and remember thinking of the Covenant series as a serious grown-up version of what LOTR was trying for. I actually enjoyed the movie verion of LOTR better than the books.

 

As I read this thread I was thinking of exactly the same two authors, both of whom I have read extensively.

Regarding Stephen Donaldson, I would highly recommend his Science fiction opus "the gap series" - the first book is relatively short and highly violent, but once you get over that the books become successively greater, and more tome-like. Extremely good - I read three of them consecutively in about 20 hours and then had to wait 6 months until the next one was printed.

 

Regarding Ian M Banks, his "Culture" series of books are truly visionary sci-fi, and I would urge anyone here to pick up "Consider Phlebas" - the first of the series. His non-sci-fi books are a bit more hit and miss in my opinion, but The culture series, and "the algebraist" are awesomely inventive.

So anyone looking for their next sci fi fix could do a lot worse than getting into these - they'll keep you quiet for a few months!

 

Ian

 


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Mr. XC wrote:I liked

Mr. XC wrote:

I liked Sunshine, but maybe that was because it looked good with my 1080p / Blu-ray setup.  I like sci-fi mixed with a little horror, so maybe that has a little to do with it.  For example, Event Horizon was entertaining to me too.  Then again, it does not take much to entertain me.  I do not watch TV regularly, so any series of moving pictures will capture my interest.

That's how I watched it, too. (I love you, my darling PS3.) My problem was, the first half was slow (which was OK), the characters were only half-well-drawn (they were presented as interesting, but never developed), and then it degenerated into a "crazy guy loose on the ship" cliche. The most intersting bit was when they were deciding whether or not to kill the crazy guy. Oh, and I wasn't drunk enough.

The special effects were interesting, even if the physics were worse than a Michael Bay movie. At least the bad physics were in service to a decent plot. Cillian Murphy is quickly becoming one of my favorite young actors, partly because of Batman Begins, and partly because of this movie.

My problem: I think it thought it was a better movie than it was. It was overly-pretentious, without the characters or character development I like from my pretentious movies (like Capote, a very good movie). It was predictable. (Who didn't see the captain snuffing it during the spacwalk? Raise your hands.)  The dialog wasn't really that good, though it was far better than most movies. Its attempts at misdirection were heavy-handed. (My wife noticed the second scalpel was missing.) And so on.

This is my problem with modern SF. We have the chance to make great movies. Yet we settle for mediocre, or worse.

Anyway, I kinda liked Sunshine, in spite of my earlier comments. I just thought it should've been far better, and far less predictable. I really liked Event Horizon, though, for the sheer sake of a bad movie. (Have you ever seen Deep Blue Sea? It is the foundation for my family's "bad movie night" tradition.)

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I love the sci-fi channel!

I love the sci-fi channel! They always play the most awesome shows.

And I loveee Michael Criton's "Sphere"...but that's an older book. I agree, I need my sci-fi fix!

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nigelTheBold wrote: Anyway,

nigelTheBold wrote:

 

Anyway, I kinda liked Sunshine, in spite of my earlier comments. I just thought it should've been far better, and far less predictable. I really liked Event Horizon, though, for the sheer sake of a bad movie. (Have you ever seen Deep Blue Sea? It is the foundation for my family's "bad movie night" tradition.)

Was Deep Blue Sea the one where Sam Jackson exploded into pixels after being grabbed by a giant hyperintelligent shark?

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Quote:Was Deep Blue Sea the

Quote:
Was Deep Blue Sea the one where Sam Jackson exploded into pixels after being grabbed by a giant hyperintelligent shark?

Sam Jackson does indeed get pixelized by a hyperintelligent shark.  I'd go so far to say that his death was one of the best moments, if not the best moment, in the film.  If memory serves me right, I'm pretty sure Saffron Burrows did a couple of wet shirt scenes that took away some of the spotlight from Sam. 

In any case, here's a quote from the movie that will surely brighten your day, mister microbiologist man.

Russell Franklin: Just what the hell did you do to those sharks?
Dr. Susan McCallister: Their brains weren't large enough to harvest sufficient amounts of the protein complex. So we violated the Harvard Compact. Jim and I used gene therapies to increase their brain mass. A larger brain means more protein. As a side effect the sharks got smarter.
Janice Higgins: You stupid bitch!

 

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Hambydammit wrote:Sam

Hambydammit wrote:

Sam Jackson does indeed get pixelized by a hyperintelligent shark.  I'd go so far to say that his death was one of the best moments, if not the best moment, in the film.  If memory serves me right, I'm pretty sure Saffron Burrows did a couple of wet shirt scenes that took away some of the spotlight from Sam. 

In any case, here's a quote from the movie that will surely brighten your day, mister microbiologist man.

Russell Franklin: Just what the hell did you do to those sharks?
Dr. Susan McCallister: Their brains weren't large enough to harvest sufficient amounts of the protein complex. So we violated the Harvard Compact. Jim and I used gene therapies to increase their brain mass. A larger brain means more protein. As a side effect the sharks got smarter.
Janice Higgins: You stupid bitch!

The movie is full of gems like that.

After a bad day, there's nothing like a six pack of good beer, some chilli cheese dogs, and two hours of fun-stupid fun.

That's bad movie night.

Psychomania works, too, if you can get it. Frog-worshipping undead bike-riding hoodlums!

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Hambydammit wrote: Russell

Hambydammit wrote:

 

Russell Franklin: Just what the hell did you do to those sharks?
Dr. Susan McCallister: Their brains weren't large enough to harvest sufficient amounts of the protein complex. So we violated the Harvard Compact. Jim and I used gene therapies to increase their brain mass. A larger brain means more protein. As a side effect the sharks got smarter.
Janice Higgins: You stupid bitch!

 

The Harvard Compact.  Priceless.

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Kevin R Brown

Kevin R Brown wrote:

...Seriously. Where has all the awesome science fiction gone these days? Maybe it's just me, but t seems like it's been a way long time since any original sci-fi has been thrust into the world. Films, TV shows and books are mostly just about re-hashing popular franchises; the only medium to be regularly pumping-out new universes to explore is, well, video games (surprisingly enough).

Am I just missing the good stuff somehow? Or does anyone know of something big on the horizon for us sci-fi nuts?

 

Novels.

Beats tv anyway. Eye-wink

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