Overheard

Lyzandra Daria
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Overheard

I was at the grocery store and overheard parts of a conversation between a store employee and some customers with whom he must have been familiar.  Mind you, the store employee was an older man and the couple he was speaking with were probably my age or younger. 

 

The conversation went basically:

"Yes, this guy was trying to convince me that god doesn't exist."  The store employee relayed to his shocked friends. 

 

"So I did this." store employee stated and waved his hand in the air above his head. 

"The guy asks me 'what's that?' and I ask him...who made air.  God made air that's who." the store employee relays with some joy to his friends. 

"The guy couldn't answer me.  God made air." the store employee repeated.

The store employee and his friends 'blessed' each other and wished each other a 'good day'. I walked around the group as if they were infected and I didn't want to be contaminated. 

 

Who would have thought...'god' made air...and it was good.

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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That's hilarious! .....if

That's hilarious!

 

.....if it wasn't so sad.


Lyzandra Daria
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Overheard

Sad...And happening in public. 

Had I been the man's employer/supervisor, I might have given him a warning.  His 'job' was not to be talking religion with the customers, even if they were acquainted.  You want to talk religion, become a minister.  You want to get paid for the job you were hired to do...do your damned job.

 

I work at a place with security guards.  One happens to be a "minister".  I only had to warn him once not to talk religion.  Around here, you can get fired for less.

 

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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Probably whoever he was

Probably whoever he was talking to was so shocked by the stupidity he didn't know what to say.


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i feel more ashamed of the

i feel more ashamed of the atheist in this guy's story (assuming it was true).  i mean, maybe he might not be well-read enough to debate the niceties of transitional forms, but shit, come on, being owned by THAT argument?  the least he could have done is say, "no, he didn't."  the best the christian could have done is, "yes, he did."  then at least you have a stalemate.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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The correct question would

The correct question would be "what" made air, not "who. " Who knows this? I know green plants play a part but some natural process had to make the air before that.

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iwbiek wrote:i feel more

iwbiek wrote:

i feel more ashamed of the atheist in this guy's story (assuming it was true).  i mean, maybe he might not be well-read enough to debate the niceties of transitional forms, but shit, come on, being owned by THAT argument?  the least he could have done is say, "no, he didn't."  the best the christian could have done is, "yes, he did."  then at least you have a stalemate.

He was at a checkout in a supermarket purchasing things.  You don't want to stand around giving someone basic science education in the formation of atoms in such a situation.  The atheist in the story simply realised how stupid the checkout clerk was and that it wasn't worth the time and effort required to point out the stupidity wasn't worth it when the entire reason he was there in the first place was to purchase a few groceries.

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Yesterday I was at a grocery

Yesterday I was at a grocery store buying some food, and there I met a neighbour at the cash desk. We greeted each other briefly. He's very religional, one of main activists and organizators in local young evangelic group.
So, I watch he's paying for his food, and guess how much he paid. Exactly 666,50 CZK Smiling (about 45 dollars)
I wonder if he noticed it.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Quote: "The guy asks me

Quote:

 

"The guy asks me 'what's that?' and I ask him...who made air.  God made air that's who."

 

 

Well he's sure responsible for a lot of the hot variety. You've got something there!

 

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MattShizzle wrote:Probably

MattShizzle wrote:

Probably whoever he was talking to was so shocked by the stupidity he didn't know what to say.

No.  I got the distinct impression they knew each other.  Possibly they go to the same church.  Didn't I relay that they 'blessed' each other and wished each other a good day?

 

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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thingy wrote:iwbiek wrote:i

thingy wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

i feel more ashamed of the atheist in this guy's story (assuming it was true).  i mean, maybe he might not be well-read enough to debate the niceties of transitional forms, but shit, come on, being owned by THAT argument?  the least he could have done is say, "no, he didn't."  the best the christian could have done is, "yes, he did."  then at least you have a stalemate.

He was at a checkout in a supermarket purchasing things.  You don't want to stand around giving someone basic science education in the formation of atoms in such a situation.  The atheist in the story simply realised how stupid the checkout clerk was and that it wasn't worth the time and effort required to point out the stupidity wasn't worth it when the entire reason he was there in the first place was to purchase a few groceries.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

I was the atheist in the store.  This was a conversation between a grocery store employee and some other customers (probably same-church members).  The grocery store employee was relating the story to the customers with whom he was previously acquainted and I (unfortunately) overheard the remarks.

 

I didn't feel it was my place, nor did I want to take the time as I was otherwise busy with my own shopping, to say something like...

"Idiot...there is no such entity as 'god' and no 'god' made air unless you want to suggest that through plant evolution and photosynthesis 'god' made air"

or something along that vein.

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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OK here's another one 'overheard'

I hear a woman (atheist) talking to another woman (catholic) about all the holy days in the catholic religion. 

 

The atheist woman asks "What about Childermas that was celebrated on December 28th?" The catholic woman says "What about it?"

 

The atheist woman says "They used to whip the children to remind them about the Massacre of the innocents...you know...Herod killed all the children under 2 because he was told the messiah had been born and didn't want to be dethroned."  The catholic woman gets upset and says "They don't whip the children."

 

So the atheist woman points out several references where yes the chldren were whipped.  The catholic woman points out several references where Childermass is a day for children to play pranks...now.

 

So the atheist woman points out that the 'Massacre of the Innocents' by Herod doesn't have any archeological or historical proof that it ever occurred.  She asks "why does the catholic church have a holy day to celebrate something that never happened to begin with?"  The catholic woman responds "The catholic church doesnt make up anything...it's in the gospel."

 

The atheist woman points out that the only gospel in which the 'Massacre of the Innocents" is even mentioned is Matthew and that the Gospel of Matthew wasn't even written by Matthew...because Matthew didn't write in Greek if he was literate at all it would have been in Hebrew.

Funny or just sad?

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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Lyzandra Daria

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:

Probably whoever he was talking to was so shocked by the stupidity he didn't know what to say.

No.  I got the distinct impression they knew each other.  Possibly they go to the same church.  Didn't I relay that they 'blessed' each other and wished each other a good day?

 

I meant whoever he was oringinally talking to that he was telling them about.

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Lyzandra Daria wrote:I'm

Lyzandra Daria wrote:
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

I was the atheist in the store.  This was a conversation between a grocery store employee and some other customers (probably same-church members).  The grocery store employee was relating the story to the customers with whom he was previously acquainted and I (unfortunately) overheard the remarks. 

I didn't feel it was my place, nor did I want to take the time as I was otherwise busy with my own shopping, to say something like...

"Idiot...there is no such entity as 'god' and no 'god' made air unless you want to suggest that through plant evolution and photosynthesis 'god' made air"

or something along that vein.

I just have to clarify something here.  The store employee you overheard talking to other customers, was he relating an earlier discussion between him and you?  When I both read and said "the atheist", I was under the impression it was a previous customer who had been through the line ahead of both the customers the employee was telling the story too as well as ahead of you.

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Luminon wrote:Yesterday I

Luminon wrote:

Yesterday I was at a grocery store buying some food, and there I met a neighbour at the cash desk. We greeted each other briefly. He's very religional, one of main activists and organizators in local young evangelic group.
So, I watch he's paying for his food, and guess how much he paid. Exactly 666,50 CZK Smiling (about 45 dollars)
I wonder if he noticed it.

maria!  byvas na ceske?  ja som american ale uz byvam tu na slovensku, pred kosic.  moja manzelka je slovenka.  rozumies po slovensky?  lebo nic neviem po cesky, iba "promin" a "dekuji" a "brambor" a "jo" a "kluci" a "slunce, seno, a jahody," a tak dale .  ta, co hovorim?  ani neviem take vela po slovensky!

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


Lyzandra Daria
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MattShizzle wrote:Lyzandra

MattShizzle wrote:

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:

Probably whoever he was talking to was so shocked by the stupidity he didn't know what to say.

No.  I got the distinct impression they knew each other.  Possibly they go to the same church.  Didn't I relay that they 'blessed' each other and wished each other a good day?

 

I meant whoever he was oringinally talking to that he was telling them about.

Oh...I misunderstood.

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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thingy wrote:Lyzandra Daria

thingy wrote:

Lyzandra Daria wrote:
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

I was the atheist in the store.  This was a conversation between a grocery store employee and some other customers (probably same-church members).  The grocery store employee was relating the story to the customers with whom he was previously acquainted and I (unfortunately) overheard the remarks. 

I didn't feel it was my place, nor did I want to take the time as I was otherwise busy with my own shopping, to say something like...

"Idiot...there is no such entity as 'god' and no 'god' made air unless you want to suggest that through plant evolution and photosynthesis 'god' made air"

or something along that vein.

I just have to clarify something here.  The store employee you overheard talking to other customers, was he relating an earlier discussion between him and you?  When I both read and said "the atheist", I was under the impression it was a previous customer who had been through the line ahead of both the customers the employee was telling the story too as well as ahead of you.

The store employee I overheard talking to other customers...was relating an earlier discussion between himself and some other person.  It was this other person who was trying to convince the store employee that there was no god...I'm assuming off store property and not during work.  The store employee was relaying his experience to two other customers who he was previously acquainted with...and...I (just by chance another atheist) overheard the store employee relaying the information. 

 

Now I'm confused... but I think I'll live.

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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iwbiek wrote:Luminon

iwbiek wrote:

Luminon wrote:

Yesterday I was at a grocery store buying some food, and there I met a neighbour at the cash desk. We greeted each other briefly. He's very religional, one of main activists and organizators in local young evangelic group.
So, I watch he's paying for his food, and guess how much he paid. Exactly 666,50 CZK Smiling (about 45 dollars)
I wonder if he noticed it.

maria!  byvas na ceske?  ja som american ale uz byvam tu na slovensku, pred kosic.  moja manzelka je slovenka.  rozumies po slovensky?  lebo nic neviem po cesky, iba "promin" a "dekuji" a "brambor" a "jo" a "kluci" a "slunce, seno, a jahody," a tak dale .  ta, co hovorim?  ani neviem take vela po slovensky!

Sorry...english only.  My mother refused to allow me to take a foreign language in high school because my eldest sister failed spanish...and this doesn't look like it could be spanish either.  Must have got our posts 'crossed'.

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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Lyzandra Daria wrote:thingy

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

thingy wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

i feel more ashamed of the atheist in this guy's story (assuming it was true).  i mean, maybe he might not be well-read enough to debate the niceties of transitional forms, but shit, come on, being owned by THAT argument?  the least he could have done is say, "no, he didn't."  the best the christian could have done is, "yes, he did."  then at least you have a stalemate.

He was at a checkout in a supermarket purchasing things.  You don't want to stand around giving someone basic science education in the formation of atoms in such a situation.  The atheist in the story simply realised how stupid the checkout clerk was and that it wasn't worth the time and effort required to point out the stupidity wasn't worth it when the entire reason he was there in the first place was to purchase a few groceries.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

I was the atheist in the store.  This was a conversation between a grocery store employee and some other customers (probably same-church members).  The grocery store employee was relating the story to the customers with whom he was previously acquainted and I (unfortunately) overheard the remarks.

 

I didn't feel it was my place, nor did I want to take the time as I was otherwise busy with my own shopping, to say something like...

"Idiot...there is no such entity as 'god' and no 'god' made air unless you want to suggest that through plant evolution and photosynthesis 'god' made air"

or something along that vein.

 

I understood your original story. And yes, how sad that goes on in public places where it really doesn't belong. It's one thing for a customer but far worse for an employee to do so while at work on company time.

Not only does that kind of reach-around and feel-the-good-o-jeebus xian conversation take place seemingly everywhere but, you know it takes place amongst the faithful with their butts, err, I mean, buds, after they visit RRS.

How many times do you suppose a  theist has made a few posts or started a thread, got a few "bad Atheists" all riled up and 'running in circles', just so (s)he could show all his/her believer buddies just how 'ignorant those satanists are'.

I'm just glad I rarely get to hear the BS stories and christian fiction. Many xians I am in the vicinity of, know I'm an Atheist. I think they must wait til I'm out of earshot before their tall ( I-whooped-an Atheist ass) tales begin.

 


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Lyzandra Daria wrote:iwbiek

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

Luminon wrote:

Yesterday I was at a grocery store buying some food, and there I met a neighbour at the cash desk. We greeted each other briefly. He's very religional, one of main activists and organizators in local young evangelic group.
So, I watch he's paying for his food, and guess how much he paid. Exactly 666,50 CZK Smiling (about 45 dollars)
I wonder if he noticed it.

maria!  byvas na ceske?  ja som american ale uz byvam tu na slovensku, pred kosic.  moja manzelka je slovenka.  rozumies po slovensky?  lebo nic neviem po cesky, iba "promin" a "dekuji" a "brambor" a "jo" a "kluci" a "slunce, seno, a jahody," a tak dale .  ta, co hovorim?  ani neviem take vela po slovensky!

Sorry...english only.  My mother refused to allow me to take a foreign language in high school because my eldest sister failed spanish...and this doesn't look like it could be spanish either.  Must have got our posts 'crossed'.

that was for luminon.  he (or she) mentioned a guy paying in czech crowns, so i spoke to him in slovak (or my butchering of it), since czech and slovak are very similar.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


Lyzandra Daria
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Overheard...

Wonko,

 

I'm glad you got it the first time.  Sometimes, I wonder if I can even communicate in writing coherently anymore.

 

Do you believe it would have been appropriate for me, a customer, to rebuke the store employee?  Or to do anything but walk away as if they were infected? 

 

As I wrote earlier...had I been the man's supervisor, I would have issued him a warning.  The workplace, if not a church or religious place of 'business', is not the appropriate place for such conversations, IMO.

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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IMHO

No it would not have been inappropriate, his illogical conclusion on how air was formed is inexcusable and should be explained correctly that air does not mean god exists...it means air exists. As well there are other customers around that are probably far more intelliegent and could be offended by his ignorance.


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Lyzandra Daria

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

Wonko,

 

I'm glad you got it the first time.  Sometimes, I wonder if I can even communicate in writing coherently anymore.

 

Do you believe it would have been appropriate for me, a customer, to rebuke the store employee?  Or to do anything but walk away as if they were infected? 

 

As I wrote earlier...had I been the man's supervisor, I would have issued him a warning.  The workplace, if not a church or religious place of 'business', is not the appropriate place for such conversations, IMO.

Lyz,

Actually, you might have been able to accomplish both the rebuke and the walk away. Let me explain...

I'm not sure just how appropriate my response would have been, but it might've gone something like this: Note the communicative contagion, taking care to recall at least one direct, highly offensive quote by the employee in question. Avoid the desire to engage the employee knowing that there are more than two ways to skin a ___. Walk away and as soon as possible phone the store and sound off only to the supervisor. Be vehement, be downright pissed, but don't turn up the volume on your expressiveness... no need to bust his/her eardrum(s). Hang up and be satisfied that the rebuke is likely coming. It just won't be directly from you.

Anyway, that's probably what I would've done.


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latincanuck wrote:No it

latincanuck wrote:

No it would not have been inappropriate, his illogical conclusion on how air was formed is inexcusable and should be explained correctly that air does not mean god exists...it means air exists. As well there are other customers around that are probably far more intelliegent and could be offended by his ignorance.

 

Thanks, but I don't think he would have understood photosynthesis and probably doesn't believe in evolution.  I also don't know, at that time of day, of the intellegent quotient of the store patrons runs very high.

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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Wonko wrote:Lyzandra Daria

Wonko wrote:

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

Wonko,

 

I'm glad you got it the first time.  Sometimes, I wonder if I can even communicate in writing coherently anymore.

 

Do you believe it would have been appropriate for me, a customer, to rebuke the store employee?  Or to do anything but walk away as if they were infected? 

 

As I wrote earlier...had I been the man's supervisor, I would have issued him a warning.  The workplace, if not a church or religious place of 'business', is not the appropriate place for such conversations, IMO.

Lyz,

Actually, you might have been able to accomplish both the rebuke and the walk away. Let me explain...

I'm not sure just how appropriate my response would have been, but it might've gone something like this: Note the communicative contagion, taking care to recall at least one direct, highly offensive quote by the employee in question. Avoid the desire to engage the employee knowing that there are more than two ways to skin a ___. Walk away and as soon as possible phone the store and sound off only to the supervisor. Be vehement, be downright pissed, but don't turn up the volume on your expressiveness... no need to bust his/her eardrum(s). Hang up and be satisfied that the rebuke is likely coming. It just won't be directly from you.

Anyway, that's probably what I would've done.

 

Thanks...less confrontational.

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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iwbiek wrote:Lyzandra Daria

iwbiek wrote:

Lyzandra Daria wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

Luminon wrote:

Yesterday I was at a grocery store buying some food, and there I met a neighbour at the cash desk. We greeted each other briefly. He's very religional, one of main activists and organizators in local young evangelic group.
So, I watch he's paying for his food, and guess how much he paid. Exactly 666,50 CZK Smiling (about 45 dollars)
I wonder if he noticed it.

maria!  byvas na ceske?  ja som american ale uz byvam tu na slovensku, pred kosic.  moja manzelka je slovenka.  rozumies po slovensky?  lebo nic neviem po cesky, iba "promin" a "dekuji" a "brambor" a "jo" a "kluci" a "slunce, seno, a jahody," a tak dale .  ta, co hovorim?  ani neviem take vela po slovensky!

Sorry...english only.  My mother refused to allow me to take a foreign language in high school because my eldest sister failed spanish...and this doesn't look like it could be spanish either.  Must have got our posts 'crossed'.

that was for luminon.  he (or she) mentioned a guy paying in czech crowns, so i spoke to him in slovak (or my butchering of it), since czech and slovak are very similar.

 

My bad...

"Faith must have adequate evidence else it is mere superstition"...Alexander Hodge (1823-1886)

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes"...James Feibleman (1904-1987)

Respectfully, Lyz


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iwbiek wrote:Luminon

iwbiek wrote:

Luminon wrote:

Yesterday I was at a grocery store buying some food, and there I met a neighbour at the cash desk. We greeted each other briefly. He's very religional, one of main activists and organizators in local young evangelic group.
So, I watch he's paying for his food, and guess how much he paid. Exactly 666,50 CZK Smiling (about 45 dollars)
I wonder if he noticed it.

maria!  byvas na ceske?  ja som american ale uz byvam tu na slovensku, pred kosic.  moja manzelka je slovenka.  rozumies po slovensky?  lebo nic neviem po cesky, iba "promin" a "dekuji" a "brambor" a "jo" a "kluci" a "slunce, seno, a jahody," a tak dale .  ta, co hovorim?  ani neviem take vela po slovensky!

Ja byvam v Cesku,  ale polovicu rodiny mam na Slovensku, v Presove a Kosicach. Moj otec je odtialto, doma s nim hovorime po slovensky, takze rozumiem vsetko a viem aj trochu pisat.  Dufam ze sa ti tam paci, mne hej Smiling
Vidim ze v cesku by si sa aj dohovoril, takmer vsetci by ti tam mali rozumet, jazykove rozdiely nie su az tak velke a u nas na cz/sk foru si kazdy pise po svojemu a vacsinou nie je treba nic prekladat.

 

 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Luminon wrote:Ja byvam v

Luminon wrote:

Ja byvam v Cesku,  ale polovicu rodiny mam na Slovensku, v Presove a Kosicach. Moj otec je odtialto, doma s nim hovorime po slovensky, takze rozumiem vsetko a viem aj trochu pisat.  Dufam ze sa ti tam paci, mne hej Smiling
Vidim ze v cesku by si sa aj dohovoril, takmer vsetci by ti tam mali rozumet, jazykove rozdiely nie su az tak velke a u nas na cz/sk foru si kazdy pise po svojemu a vacsinou nie je treba nic prekladat.

more!  ja rozumiem asi 90% co si pisal, ale velmi taske pre mna odpovedat lebo ja stale iba pamatam slova ked tieto vidim.  a vidis, ako moja gramatika je strasne zle.  moja manzelka studovala v presove.  to je pekne mesto ale kosice je moje oblubene.  jasne tu velmi mi paci.  tu som uz byval 4 rokov!  ale nie v kosiciach ale v dedine pred kosic.  teraz my stavame domcek v dedine.

ja som ti opital ze nerozumies po slovensky lebo som pocuval ze viac slovaci rozumiu po cesky ako cesi rozumiu po slovensky.  to neni pravda? 

 

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Childermas

I believe you are correct Lyzandra.  Childermas was/is a catholic holiday that used to be celebrated on Dec. 28th (29th?).  It was supposed to commemorate Herod's murdering of all the male babies under 2 years of age, because the Magi (wise men) from the East had come to him to ask to see the Messiah or King. 

But that story is only found in the Gospel of Matthew and not corroborated with any archeological or historical records.  I would have to agree with you that one reference in an already dubious document (bible/gospel of Matthew) no matter how long it continues to be repeated, doesn't make it a fact. 

This story is also like the Moses story when Pharoah ordered that all the children under the age of 2 be killed.  Maybe that is the massacre of the innocents that should be celebrated/memorialized, but wouldn't that be a jewish holiday then?

That line "...catholics don't make up anything, it's in the gospel" is too funny.  Catholics have even made up new rituals/sacraments just to add to the mumbo jumbo of their superstition rituals.

"Such evil deeds could religion prompt"...Lucretius 96-55BC

"Men never do evil so completely & cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction"...Blaise Pascale 1623-1662

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Isn't Egyptian history of

Isn't Egyptian history of that period pretty well documented? Why isn't there any evidence that that whole story - including the plagues and the drowning of the Pharoh's armies happened? Don't you think the Egyptians would have made note of such disasters?

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MattShizzle wrote:Isn't

MattShizzle wrote:

Isn't Egyptian history of that period pretty well documented? Why isn't there any evidence that that whole story - including the plagues and the drowning of the Pharoh's armies happened? Don't you think the Egyptians would have made note of such disasters?

yes, the egyptians did a pretty good job with their history, but the typical christian apologetic argument is, "the egyptians didn't write about their losses."  which may be true, but ignores the fact that not only the egyptians were writing egyptian history.  herodotus, for one, covers the period when most christian "scholars" claim that moses lived and the exodus happened, and not one word.  and herodotus is known for telling some pretty tall tales, so had there even been a legend of such an occurrence at that time, he probably would have repeated it.  of course, there is also the total lack of any archeological evidence for the exodus and a drowned egyptian army.

so, basically, the christian argument is, "because the egyptians DIDN'T write about the exodus, that gives it more credence." 

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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MattShizzle wrote:Isn't

MattShizzle wrote:

Isn't Egyptian history of that period pretty well documented? Why isn't there any evidence that that whole story - including the plagues and the drowning of the Pharoh's armies happened? Don't you think the Egyptians would have made note of such disasters?

 

I saw a program...PBS or History Channel...that pretty much explained how the plagues could have happened.  No divine intervention needed.  Whether they did happen (?)  Who cares.

"Such evil deeds could religion prompt"...Lucretius 96-55BC

"Men never do evil so completely & cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction"...Blaise Pascale 1623-1662

Xaphan


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I remeber something like

I remeber something like that - I think it started with a red tide (which they confused with the water turning to blood) which drove in the insects and frogs, etc. Still, it'sassuming they happened in the first place. Kind of like explaining how Spiderman could have did what he did usng technology rather than a bite by a radioactive (1960s - 1980s) or genetically enhanced (from the 21st Century movies) spider.

 

Obviously there is a huge problem with the stories as - in just one problem - horses and cattle can only die once.

 

Finally, if such events had happened as described in the bible, such an incredible disaster would certainly have been documented in and outside Egypt - so why is there no mention of these events outside the Old Testament? Such a disaster also would have likely destroyed Egypt as a civilization - all the cattle and horses either dead or gone, the firstborn son in every family dead, the removal of what was supposedly a huge portion of the servant class, all the dead from other events, the crops all but destroyed from hail, etc.

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MattShizzle wrote:I remeber

MattShizzle wrote:

I remeber something like that - I think it started with a red tide (which they confused with the water turning to blood) which drove in the insects and frogs, etc. Still, it'sassuming they happened in the first place. Kind of like explaining how Spiderman could have did what he did usng technology rather than a bite by a radioactive (1960s - 1980s) or genetically enhanced (from the 21st Century movies) spider.

 

Obviously there is a huge problem with the stories as - in just one problem - horses and cattle can only die once.

 

Finally, if such events had happened as described in the bible, such an incredible disaster would certainly have been documented in and outside Egypt - so why is there no mention of these events outside the Old Testament? Such a disaster also would have likely destroyed Egypt as a civilization - all the cattle and horses either dead or gone, the firstborn son in every family dead, the removal of what was supposedly a huge portion of the servant class, all the dead from other events, the crops all but destroyed from hail, etc.

 

If you believe the bible story, you can find evidence to support it.

 

http://www.biblicalchronologist.org/answers/exodus_egypt.php

 

More Evidence

The Biblical account of the ten plagues is quite detailed. It describes the pollution of the water supply, and devastation of the livestock and vegetation of the land. The Israelites left, depriving the land of its slave labor, and they carried away much of the land's wealth in the form of silver, gold, and clothing (Exodus 12:36). Also, the army and the Pharaoh were drowned in the "Red Sea," leaving the country with weakened defenses. The Exodus must surely have left a bold signature in Egyptian history. What do the historians find following the reign of Pepy II's successor?

Pepy II's successor was the final Pharaoh of the Old Kingdom of Egypt. Grimal says: "The Old Kingdom ended with a period of great confusion." (page 89). Summarizing an ancient Egyptian literary/historical work called Admonitions, which comments on Egypt following the reign of Pepy II's successor, Grimal says:

It was the collapse of the whole society, and Egypt itself had become a world in turmoil, exposed to the horrors of chaos which was always waiting for the moment when the personification of the divine being - the Pharaoh - neglected his duties or simply disappeared. (Grimal, page 138)

This time period was characterized by famine, an expected result of the plagues described in the book of Exodus. This famine was limited to the Nile valley (Grimal, page 139)---as the Bible's narrative would lead one to expect. There was anarchy and a struggle for political power. Egypt's foreign trade ceased and Egyptian mining in the Sinai peninsula "also seems to have been abandoned" (Grimal, page 139). The nation of Egypt had obviously suffered a severe blow---as one would expect from what the Bible tells us of the events accompanying the Exodus.

Chronology

The match between the Bible's narrative of the Exodus and the secular history of Egypt at the end of the Old Kingdom might possibly be brushed aside as coincidence were it not for the fact that this match happens at the right date according to modern Biblical chronology.

Dr. Aardsma's chronology places the Exodus 2447+/-12 B.C. The current "standard" chronology of Egypt places the end of the Old Kingdom---when the evidence discussed above says the Exodus happened---around 2200 B.C. The difference of 247 years between these two dates is close enough for such ancient times to regard the dates as the same. Uncertainties of a few hundred years in historical/archaeological chronologies are normal at such early times in the history of civilization. Nicholas Grimal notes that "The chronological span of the First Intermediate Period [which must be known to date events in the Old Kingdom accurately] is also a problem." Haas et al. have suggested, based on an extensive suite of radiocarbon dates (totally independent of Dr. Aardsma's work), that the First Intermediate Period should be lengthened by about 260 years. This would push the secular date for the end of the Old Kingdom back to around 2460 B.C., indistinguishable from Dr. Aardsma's Biblical date of 2447+/-12 B.C. for the Exodus. Pottery analysis in the Sinai Peninsula by E. D. Oren and Y. Yekuteli is also supportive of this adjustment.

Thus the qualitative match between the Bible's narrative of the Exodus and the secular history of Egypt at the end of the Old Kingdom is supported by quantitative chronology.

Conclusion

Evidence for the Exodus from Egypt is plentiful---as long as one has their Biblical chronology right, and thus knows to examine Egypt's history around 2450 B.C., rather than around the traditional 1450 B.C.

 

I don't believe the bible story...so its just another story. 

 

 

"Such evil deeds could religion prompt"...Lucretius 96-55BC

"Men never do evil so completely & cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction"...Blaise Pascale 1623-1662

Xaphan


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True - Buybull believers

True - Buybull believers will pick and choose anything to support their view and ignore everything that shows it to be bullshit. Of course they will disbelieve things that have overwhelmingly more evidence, such as evolution.

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