A Challenge to Rick Warren and Joel Olsteen

Brian37
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A Challenge to Rick Warren and Joel Olsteen

Why won't you face atheists? What are you afraid of? Could it be that you have no intellectual defense for your magical claims? Could it be that if you did face us and debate us people who follow you might be given the better choice of reason and your bread and butter living would be at risk? Is that why you are afraid to face us? Because atheists are lifting the veil of the superstition exposing the man behind the curtain?

No, you don't have time for us. You are too busy selling books and making money expanding your empires. Don't feel bad, the Pope won't debate us either, nor will most Muslim Clerics and Jewish Rabbis. Intellectual bravery in theism is severely lacking.

You'll ignore this challenge, not because some magical being exists, but because you have no defense for such a claim. I love to be proven wrong and would welcome such a challenge.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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It's good to hear from you

It's good to hear from you again JC!

jcgadfly wrote:
TT, you don't do well being facetious but I'll play along.

LOL!

Quote:
1.The Scriptures and the science books were written by men. The science books were written after many observable, repeatable experiments gave consistent results. The Scriptures lack that. Are you holdng out on observable, repeatable miracles?

We know, though, that even in the natural world inexplicable and non-repeatable events occur.  Also, I have as much proper knowledge of very few miracles, a smuch as I have proper knowledge of very few scientific experiments.  If I were to live my life based on that of which I only have proper knowledge, I'd believe very little.

Quote:
2. Translate the words of Scripture or interpret the meanings? Two different things. There have been many cases of an interpretation being opposite of what the Scripture said but the interpretation made people feel better. Later, that interpretation became canon.

Daedalus was arguing that I cannot know the meaning of Scripture without understanding the original languages in whcih they were written.  I rely on  those who have the education to translate languages accurately to do so. 

As far as interpretation, I rely upon the authority of the Chruch to interpret Scriptures.  There are areas where I am free to impose my own interpretation, but like those who gather scientific data, in the end, there can only be one truth to be gleaned.  

Quote:
3. Hasn't that objective standard you speak of gone through several changes (often with the Installation of new Popes)?

Discussion prior to definition, yes.  Once defined as truth, no.

Quote:

4. So is what's right for you only right for you if you do infringe on the rights of others? Sounds like you'd be a fine candidate for McCain's cabinet. (Only partially facetious here Smiling )

Bravo!  But you know full well that's not what I'm saying.  Life in modern society is a complex of compromises.  For example, a stop sign infringes on my right to proceed in th e manner which I desire, but is designed to regulate the safe flow of traffic.  I submit to the regulation of my right to travel in the interest of the safety of others.  The same principle extends to rights across the board. 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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Brian37 wrote:Read the rest

Brian37 wrote:

Read the rest of the post before you JUMP to conclusions.

I am saying that non-Catholics often criticise Catholics but don't realize how that comes accross.

Read what I followed that up with.

I must have misread what you wrote following.  My apologies, I was wrong.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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Brian37 wrote:What a utopian

Brian37 wrote:
What a utopian peice of garbage. Do you work for Halmark?

No.

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There  is no such thing as "perfection" there are people of ALL religions who think that is possible. There is a difference between improvement and reaching absolute zero either way. If you knew anything about law of probability , and by virtue  of this claim, demonstrates that you are clueless.

You could have tons of information about Buddism and Hinduism and Islam. You could read every book written by Rick Warren and Richard Dawkins and you will still die. If life were perfect, no one would die.

Perfection is a word describing a perception not a reality. Reality be will never be perfect.

I agree.  Upon reading my post I see that I have indeed left the impression that I believe perfection is attainable.  That is not at all what I meant.  Thanks for pointing that out. 

Quote:
Did it ever occure to you that there is no need for Churches? I still get presents at Christmas but don't believe in Santa.

I'm happy for you.  Is it, then, your contention that life is about what each individual can get out of it, as opposed to a shared experience?

Quote:
Churches are a social luxury not a human nesesity anymore than a mosque or Synogouge. Humans need food , shelter and companionship, not myth.

We have to disagree here then.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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thanks be to god for you

thanks be to god for you totus!

i couldnt dish out an arguement like you, lol.

but hey each believer plays a part in the body of christ

i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name Laughing out loud


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Thanks, DeLgAdO.  I gotta

Thanks, DeLgAdO.  I gotta tell ya it ain't all me.  I have help!   And I'm not all that good.  I have my lunch handed to me regularly.  Keep posting and practicing.  Don't get discouraged.  Read, you have 2,000 years of great thinkers and their thoughts to draw upon.  You are drawing upon the Truth.  It is inexorable and irrefutable.   I recommend Augustine, Aquinas, and Chesterton.  Like Chesterton, maintain a sense of humor and love for your opponent.  Pray without ceasing and remember laborare est orare (work is prayer).  Draw upon that "cloud of witnesses" and "lay aside every weight" so that you can "run with perseverance the race that is set  before us..." (Heb 12:1).

Preach the Gospel.  When necessary, use words.

Check your inbox for my email addy and feel free to contact me anytime, but be patient in waiting for a response.

Good luck and Godspeed!

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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jcgadfly
jcgadfly wrote:
[qyote=totus_tuus]
3. Hasn't that objective standard you speak of gone through several changes (often with the Installation of new Popes)?
Discussion prior to definition, yes.  Once defined as truth, no.
[
So the Pope and the Cardinals have to come to a consunsus before he speaks ex cathedra? So much for infallibility.
It also makes me wonder about the evolution of Mariology in the church.  From what I've seen, it didn't look like the Popes who wrote/spoke on this did much consultation. Or are you saying that the Popes only speak ex cathedra with the permission of the Cardinals?
Feel free to pm or email if you fear this a derailing.
P.S. I'm in a college production of Dead Man Walking. Shame I have to be such a bastard to Sister Helen - I'm playing Clyde Percy.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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daedalus wrote:BTW, I admire

daedalus wrote:
BTW, I admire that you are a single parent and keeping it together. I'm not sure why you had to have so many kids, or why you take time typing on an atheist forum when you could be applying your energy to something more important.  Excuse my brusqueness.

Thanks for your kind words.

I have so many children because it's what I was called to do.  I take time to post here for several reasons.  First, because it's fun.  Second, because it makes me think.  Third, because it needs to be done. 

Not all the kids are still at home.  Three down and three to go.  I post here a lot while they are at school or asleep since I don't sleep much.  No need to apologize for saying what you think, that's what these forums are all about.

Now, back to the business at hand...

Quote:
However, you claim that God Almighty came a spoke to you through Jesus. This is a vastly different belief - especially because you believe it so strongly (I assume, since you readily claim it). Yet, you haven't given yourself over to the service of god even though you believe that god is much more important than any science discovery. (Or, do you feel god is less important than an important scientific discovery?)

I never said that God was more important than scientific discovery.  In fact, it is my contention that scientific discovery is indeed another revelation to Man as to the workings of God. 

I am doing God's work.  As you can see from my numerous offspring, I have enthusiastically (and, as evidenced by the existence of illegitimate children, over-enthusiastically) thrown myself into the shared process of creation with God.  I have, with varying degrees of success, striven to instill Christian attitudes into my children.  I hold and teach the belief of the equal dignity of all human beings, which is the crux of Christian belief.

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Indeed. And who has proper authority on the supernatural? How do you test to see if Paul was right, Pope X or III, or David Koresh?

The Church established by Jesus Christ possesses that authority.

 

Quote:
You determine it based on your own opinion: your own authority.

Negative.

I start with a God belief for various reasons.  Primarily because there is something, rather than nothing.  I have other reasons for believing which are emotionally based, and are admittedly subjective which I will not and do not share with others out of hand.

I initially examnine the New Testament Gospels, not as the word of God, but as historical documents of which we have more and more recent copuies than we have of other documents from antiquity.  From those historical documents, I see that Jesus Christ was either mad, or exactly what He claimed to be, ie, the Son of God.  No mad man ever spoke as Christ did, nor did they perform the wonders which He did.  Therefore, I must concede His Divinity.  I see from His words that He intended to found a Church with authority over His Word against which the "gates of Hell" would not prevail.  It is that Church which tells me that the Gospels are the word of God.  Like St. Jerome (I think) I (and I'm working from memory here, so the quote may not be 100% accurate) would not accept the Scriptures as the Word of God if the Catholic Church did not tell me so.

Quote:
As I said, 50% of the world lives on less than a dollar a day.  If you make $2 a day, you are twice as wealthy than a majority of the planet.

 

DIdn't Jesus say you would be blessed if you follow his advice/suggestions/commands?

Do you believe in Jesus or not?  Don't you trust his words?

What I have is what I am given by Him.  I am merely the steward of it.  I have been given the responsibility of raising a family.  Granted I have been given much, but I have others dependent upon me for food, shelter, education, medical care.  That family is my primary community and my primary responsibility which I've been assigned leadership of by God.  Raising my family is the lion's share of the work God has assigned me. Believe me, my $100 a day (before taxes) really doens't go very far when divvied up six ways.

I am blessed, and I trust implicitly, albeit imperfectly in Jesus Christ.

Quote:
You act as if sinning is just something you do, can't help and have little reason to stop without even trying.  By your logic a murderer can just keep killing, shrug and say "meh, that's what the church is for."

Not so.  Sinning is something I do, something I cannot help.  I am forgiven out of God's infinite mercy and conditional on having a firm purpose of amendment.

So, you have no interest in offering reasons to people for why you believe and others could have a reason to believe? I think I mentioned how Xpianity is only a self-serving religion: "Save myself and don't worry about anyone else - except, feed a few of them so you look good."

Ah, but I do have an interest.  Salvation is not a gift of God to individuals, but is offered to us all, collectively.  I work to alleviate the suffering of others because they are created in the image of God as I am.  I am "my brother's keeper".  That is one of the first teachings of the Scriptures.  It ain't all about me.

Quote:
BTW, IF Xpianity is true, I am going to Hell as are many people you know, even many of the people you think are good Xpians.  I am sure though, that once you make it to Heaven you will not worry about that and praise your God - and yourself for being clever to pick the right religion.

I am guaranteed nothing.  I hope for Heaven, but wouldn't presume to place myself there.  Faith alone is not sufficient, I must do the work of God.  St. James tells us that even the demons believe, but they are nor saved.  One can do the work of God without knowledge of Him.  Don't sell yourself short.

Quote:
Yes, you were more prolific this time. Thank you.  However, I now wonder how much of a Xpian you are, since you don't seem to be arguing very strongly for it (As Paul said you should, btw....)

Every word I've written has been a defense of what I believe (exactly as St. Peter admonished us to do).  There is more to the Gospel thatn what is written in the Bible.  Besides, what good would spewing Bible verses at you be?

Quote:
Anyhow, my central point is that science is a man-made process in which we learn little things about our universe. It's such a minor thing if you are xpian

Science is a gift of God granted to us throught the gift of intellect by which God reveals the workings of the universe he created to us.  It is major, and it is a wonder.

Quote:
Did Jesus ever say one thing about science? Did he mention that scholarly pursuits were valuable at all?  No.

You're right, He didn't.  As St. Augustine tells us "One does not read in the Gospel that the Lord said: 'I will send you the Paraclete who will teach you about the course of the sun and moon.' For He willed to make them Christians, not mathematicians."  Science wasn't His mission.

Quote:
Moreover, you claim to believe in god and Jesus (but for some reason won't talk about other central figures of the supernatural world: Satan and angels, which is odd since it says in the Bible that Jesus even met Satan: was it a lie?), but you don't make it the most important thing in your life.

There hasn't been a call to talk about Satan.  Whatcha wanna know about that subject?

The focus of my life is the service of Our Lord Jesus Christ through the service of others.  I believe I've made that quite clear.

Again, I hope I've addressed all the issues you wanted.  You seem to be reading an awful lot of things I'm not saying into what I've written.  if we can focus on one or two specific issues it might help.

Thanks for the engaging and stimulating conversation.

 

 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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JC, suffice it to say that

JC, suffice it to say that pursuing the questions you raise will probably derail this thread more seriously than it is in danger of already, and I seem to have my work cut out for me here with Daedalus.  I'll try to get back you on this via email, or perhaps a new thread.

You musta been a hellatious Protestant apologist in your day.  LOL!

Someday, I must catch you on the stage!

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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totus, a a yeah, you are

totus, a a yeah, you are indeed doing "gods work", because you are god, condemned to be so, with no choice what so ever about it. It's a no brainer. It is the blind, the fearful, and ignorant, the hypocrites, the greedy, etc who think and teach other wise. Buddha took an easy going method of presenting this dirt non superstitious simple concept. Story jesus, the "my way or the highway" character, said the same things but with with more rightious indignation, due to the radical place and times.

I truly wish all would augment their favorite "mentors" such as jesus, with caring ideas from others. Come together, east and west, for the better. Alan Watts was a good teacher unifying the major world religions.

Hey, this is worth any caring good christian's time. The atheistic east digs jesus too ....

http://www.hinduism.co.za/jesus.htm

 


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DeLgAdO

DeLgAdO wrote:

If his power has kept me off the broad way and on the narrow road how powerful and wonderful he is! for its impossible for me to do it on my own.

So you think you are as inept as a puppy who pees on the carpet who needs to be rapped on the nose to train them to go outside?

That would be a a welcome myth if it were not for the REAL violence that comes between these bloody cheerleaders who will kill for their respective sky daddies.

Humans need other humans, they don't need to fill their lives with bad guesses and myth.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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totus_tuus wrote:daedalus

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I have so many children because it's what I was called to do.

 

No, that is you, conciously, or subconciously buying into societal propaganda. It never occures to you that a mundane, nonmagical biological predispostion, combind with human psychology, and the human flaw of buying a bad sales pitch.

NO, a bearded man in a white robe, who gave you a penis watches you while you have sex to make sure that you don't have fun and only do it to pop out more drones for him?

God didn't call you to have kids anymore than Thor wispered in my ear, "Go take a shit right now, or your intestines will explode".

You had kids, because YOU wanted to. Just like Muslims and Hindus and atheists have kids.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brain37 wrote:No, that is

Brain37 wrote:

No, that is you, conciously, or subconciously buying into societal propaganda. It never occures to you that a mundane, nonmagical biological predispostion, combind with human psychology, and the human flaw of buying a bad sales pitch.

NO, a bearded man in a white robe, who gave you a penis watches you while you have sex to make sure that you don't have fun and only do it to pop out more drones for him?

God didn't call you to have kids anymore than Thor wispered in my ear, "Go take a shit right now, or your intestines will explode".

You had kids, because YOU wanted to. Just like Muslims and Hindus and atheists have kids.

And it's fun!

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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"I am guaranteed nothing. 

"I am guaranteed nothing.  I hope for Heaven, but wouldn't presume to place myself there.  Faith alone is not sufficient, I must do the work of God.  St. James tells us that even the demons believe, but they are nor saved.  One can do the work of God without knowledge of Him.  Don't sell yourself short."

 

imma have to stop you there bro, faith is all that is needed. Its faith and faith alone. Faith results in works, not faith plus works.  the evidence that you believe is in your works, faith results in works.

 

James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name Laughing out loud


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Jesus is lord, all the

Jesus is lord, all the other  gods and teaching are false!

 

you cant unify any world religion because each one says something completely different from the other, now if you want to unify them, you have to change them by removing or adding something to tie them together, but after you do that you no longer have that paricular religion, you have something entirely different and it will manifest into something evil appearing innocent on the outside.

i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name Laughing out loud


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DeLgAdO wrote:Jesus is lord,

DeLgAdO wrote:

Jesus is lord, all the other  gods and teaching are false!

 

you cant unify any world religion because each one says something completely different from the other, now if you want to unify them, you have to change them by removing or adding something to tie them together, but after you do that you no longer have that paricular religion, you have something entirely different and it will manifest into something evil appearing innocent on the outside.

Well that explains why a lot of Christians want the Jews as dead as the Muslims - the bodies have to be high enough that Jesus doesn't need to take such a big step to make it to Earth.

You do know that Jesus (assuming he existed) was Jewish, right? A follower of Yahweh? You do know that your holy book was written by Jews, right?

Or are you a "Jesus only" Christian and the God of the OT is false also?

I'll let TT take you on on the faith v. works thing. Let it suffice to say that I think that you're a good Paulist - all you need to do is believe, right? All that "going about doing good" that Jesus guy did was unnecessary crud, right? You don't actually have to live right - you just have to believe right.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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DeLgAdO wrote:imma have to

DeLgAdO wrote:
imma have to stop you there bro, faith is all that is needed. Its faith and faith alone. Faith results in works, not faith plus works.  the evidence that you believe is in your works, faith results in works.

JCgadfly is right.  We're gonna clash big time on this one, Del.  It's an argument between brothers, please take what I say in the spirit in which it is intended, that is, in the spirit of fraternal correction.  In all probability, however, I will not convice you of my views, nor will you convince me of yours.  We will have to agree to disagree.

For a complete discussion of the matter I've had with other Protestant posters on this forum, please see http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/rook_hawkins/biblical_errancy/6139?page=1

If you wish to pursue this discussion, I'd suggest we either begin a new thread or take it up by email (I've sent my addy to you by PM).  I'd be happy to accomodate you either way.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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Del,  OUCH,  "get behind

Del,  OUCH,  "get behind me you satan (wrong thinking)." Your jesus is a prejudice dangerous idol worship of Pauline influence , surely not in the mind set of James. James is perhaps my favorite simple little bible cannon book.

"To know the good is to do the good." -  Socrates

    If you are able to remove the attached silly folklore from all the world ancient "wisdom" writings, you find that the message is the same.  


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:Del, 

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:
Del,  OUCH,  "get behind me you satan (wrong thinking)." Your jesus is a prejudice dangerous idol worship of Pauline influence , surely not in the mind set of James. James is perhaps my favorite simple little bible cannon book.

Paul and James don't conflict.  Although James is much more explicit as to the role of works.

Quote:
"To know the good is to do the good." -  Socrates

Not so IAGAY.  You, like I, are fully aware of times when you fully knew the good and acted in opposition to it.  Any person with a shred of integrity will admit this to be a universal failing of humanity.

 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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totu, well so much for

totu, well so much for parables and metaphors! So, yeah back to science! To know the good to what degree I could ask, as I light another bad cigarette. I was making the point of bridging what we call words of wisdom. Story Jesus basically said that as well, right?

We are most unfair to God; we do not allow Him to sin.
Friedrich Nietzsche

When you tell me that your Deity made you in his own image, I reply that he must have been very ugly.
Victor Hugo

   I'm not going to get into the Paul rub. It's all over the internet. 1000's of such web sites.

   No sooner had Jesus knocked over the dragon of superstition than Paul boldly set it on its legs again in the name of Jesus. - George Bernard Shaw

http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/paul_was_a_deceiver.htm

Pauline) - Christianity -- An old metaphysical romance, filled with marvels, contradictions, and absurdity, born in the ardent imagination of Orientals, has spread into our Europe. Enthusiasts have purveyed it, careerists have pretended to accept it, imbeciles have believed it.
 Frederick the Great

              Me, god, the Cosmos are ONE, no master, ATHEIST.

 


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totus_tuus wrote:I AM GOD AS

totus_tuus wrote:

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:
Del,  OUCH,  "get behind me you satan (wrong thinking)." Your jesus is a prejudice dangerous idol worship of Pauline influence , surely not in the mind set of James. James is perhaps my favorite simple little bible cannon book.

Paul and James don't conflict.  Although James is much more explicit as to the role of works.

Quote:
"To know the good is to do the good." -  Socrates

Not so IAGAY.  You, like I, are fully aware of times when you fully knew the good and acted in opposition to it.  Any person with a shred of integrity will admit this to be a universal failing of humanity.

 

Still not sure you where you figure Paul and James are in harmony. James says you need to back your godly words with action. Paul says you only need to back the words woth belief.

Paul's was kind of "head-holiness" (to use my former movement's words)

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:Still not

jcgadfly wrote:
Still not sure you where you figure Paul and James are in harmony. James says you need to back your godly words with action. Paul says you only need to back the words woth belief.

I think that Paul's admnishments to work out salvation with fear and trembling are evidence that work as necessary, as well as evidence of the futility of the "once saved, always saved" position taken by some denomnations.

Quote:
Paul's was kind of "head-holiness" (to use my former movement's words)

Sounds interesting.  Could you explain this a bit, I'm not so sure I understand what it means.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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totus_tuus wrote:jcgadfly

totus_tuus wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Still not sure you where you figure Paul and James are in harmony. James says you need to back your godly words with action. Paul says you only need to back the words woth belief.

I think that Paul's admnishments to work out salvation with fear and trembling are evidence that work as necessary, as well as evidence of the futility of the "once saved, always saved" position taken by some denomnations.

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Paul's was kind of "head-holiness" (to use my former movement's words)

Sounds interesting.  Could you explain this a bit, I'm not so sure I understand what it means.

To "work out salvation with fear and trembling" seems to mean praying more fervently and studying harder to get closer to God as opposed to actual deeds. I know that I can't get much work done if I'm scared enough to be shaking.

That's also what I mean by "head-holiness" - It's more of a thought process than anything physical. It's the conceptual view winning over the real world.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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totus_tuus wrote:Thanks,

totus_tuus wrote:

Thanks, DeLgAdO.  I gotta tell ya it ain't all me.  I have help!   And I'm not all that good.  I have my lunch handed to me regularly.  Keep posting and practicing.  Don't get discouraged.  Read, you have 2,000 years of great thinkers and their thoughts to draw upon.  You are drawing upon the Truth.  It is inexorable and irrefutable.   I recommend Augustine, Aquinas, and Chesterton.  Like Chesterton, maintain a sense of humor and love for your opponent.  Pray without ceasing and remember laborare est orare (work is prayer).  Draw upon that "cloud of witnesses" and "lay aside every weight" so that you can "run with perseverance the race that is set  before us..." (Heb 12:1).

Preach the Gospel.  When necessary, use words.

Check your inbox for my email addy and feel free to contact me anytime, but be patient in waiting for a response.

Good luck and Godspeed!

And what these morons never considered is that their "thoughts" are not from a magical source, but merely something they were the first to popularize and good at marketing. Muslims claim Allah is real because their ancestors contributeded to algebra. And some also claim that Muhammed is real because the Koran mentions mountains moving an that he knew about plate techtonics.

If Einstien told me there was an invisable teapot orbiting Jupiter I wouldn't buy it just because he claims to be educated.

The ancient Greeks first postulated the word "atom", but you don't believe in their polytheistic gods and I would hope it would be absurd to you that anyone supporting that would be nuts to claim the ancient Greeks knew about protons and electrons.

Saying that "the sky is blue" doesn't demonstrate that you know why it is.

Aquinus was merely popular and had no modern knowledge at that time.

Henry ford built a car, but you'd never claim that he could have, in 1929 have built a modern 2008 Lamborgini.

Gene Rodenberry guessed that humans could put a hand held communication divice in their hands. BUT he had no clue if it could become a reality, and certainly you don't worship him as a god merely because he postulated that.

There are far more bad guesses by humans to what is, than lucky guesses that merely happen to be plausable. You are focusing on your agenda, insted of focusing on human nature, and in human nature, what you discribe has always happened throughout human history. You merely pick your "heros" as an arbitrary starting point, when there were many more humans before and many more humans after, that either built upon, or debunked the claim at that time.

If you are unwilling to worship Athena because the Greeks first used the word "atom", then don't jump to the conclusion that ghosts knock up girls and surviving rigor mortis is possible because of some uneducated observation a Christian made that just happened to fit. Everyone can have a lucky thought, but that doesn't mean they know what they are observing, and there are millions more bad guesses that never see the light of day.

Newton dabbled in alchemy yet we don't teach it in science classes, and just because he formulated a real theory on gravity, doesn't make the earth 6,000 years old, or men magicaly POOF, coming from dirt, just because you like the stories of the bible.

You are stuck on your heros, not because they knew what they were talking about, but because you like your heros. You do it, Muslims do it and unfortunetly neither of you will be the last to do it, if human nature is as predictable as it seems to be.

 Even to this day archeologists are still trying to figure out the precision of how certain aspects of the Egyptian pyramids were built, yet neither you or I pray to the sun like it is a living thing, but they did, and Ra merely got beaten out by newer popular myth via marketing by gullible people.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


totus_tuus
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Brian37 wrote:And what these

Brian37 wrote:
And what these morons never considered is that their "thoughts" are not from a magical source, but merely something they were the first to popularize and good at marketing.

What these morons never claimed is that their thoughts came from a magical source.  Aquinas was not the first to popularize and "market" hiss thinking, but few heavily from Augustine who had begun the refinement of the thinking of Aristotle.  Both viewed the thought of Aristotle via the lens of Christianity.  Chesterton drew on Augustine, Aquinas, Francis of Assisi, Savonarola, Samuel Johnson.  They all realized that their thoughts were the product of their own minds.  Ther realized that "is" is.  That "is" is the first thing we know and that everything starts from there.

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Muslims claim Allah is real because their ancestors contributeded to algebra. And some also claim that Muhammed is real because the Koran mentions mountains moving an that he knew about plate techtonics.

Oooooookkkkaay.......!?

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If Einstien told me there was an invisable teapot orbiting Jupiter I wouldn't buy it just because he claims to be educated.

I wouldn't buy it either unless I really, really needed a teapot.

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The ancient Greeks first postulated the word "atom", but you don't believe in their polytheistic gods and I would hope it would be absurd to you that anyone supporting that would be nuts to claim the ancient Greeks knew about protons and electrons.

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Aquinus was merely popular and had no modern knowledge at that time.

Aquinas possessed the self same mental faculties humans possess today.  He fully realized the world for the amazingly complex place it is and fully realized as well that his knowledge was imperfect.  I spite of the fact that science was as complete as the science of today, he formed a school of thought which is still relevant today.

Awright?!

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Saying that "the sky is blue" doesn't demonstrate that you know why it is.

I'm beginning to think this is some sort of stream of conciousness thing.  Did I ever make this claim?

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Henry ford built a car, but you'd never claim that he could have, in 1929 have built a modern 2008 Lamborgini.

But he realized that the automobile was here for the long run, as Aquinas realized that human thought was gonna be around for awhile.

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There are far more bad guesses by humans to what is, than lucky guesses that merely happen to be plausable. You are focusing on your agenda, insted of focusing on human nature, and in human nature, what you discribe has always happened throughout human history. You merely pick your "heros" as an arbitrary starting point, when there were many more humans before and many more humans after, that either built upon, or debunked the claim at that time.

An admission that Augustine and Aristotle were right?  In any event, neither claimed originality.  Each admitted basing their thoughts on predecessors, so I'm really at a loss as to your point.

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If you are unwilling to worship Athena because the Greeks first used the word "atom", then don't jump to the conclusion that ghosts knock up girls and surviving rigor mortis is possible because of some uneducated observation a Christian made that just happened to fit. Everyone can have a lucky thought, but that doesn't mean they know what they are observing, and there are millions more bad guesses that never see the light of day.

Further admissions of the correctness of the Scholastics?

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Newton dabbled in alchemy yet we don't teach it in science classes,...

Nor should we.

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...doesn't make the earth 6,000 years old,...

Never claimed it was.

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...or men magicaly POOF, coming from dirt,...

Never claimed they did.

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You are stuck on your heros, not because they knew what they were talking about, but because you like your heros. You do it, Muslims do it and unfortunetly neither of you will be the last to do it, if human nature is as predictable as it seems to be.

And you don't, I suppose.

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Even to this day archeologists are still trying to figure out the precision of how certain aspects of the Egyptian pyramids were built, yet neither you or I pray to the sun like it is a living thing, but they did, and Ra merely got beaten out by newer popular myth via marketing by gullible people.

And what exactly does enigineering have to do with God belief.

So, what I've garnered from this post is that you had some sort of stream of conciousness experience, but you were trying convey that the basis of Scholastic thought is correct, but only thanks to a few lucky insights. 

 

 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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Quote:Aquinas possessed the

Quote:
Aquinas possessed the self same mental faculties humans possess today.  He fully realized the world for the amazingly complex place it is and fully realized as well that his knowledge was imperfect.  I spite of the fact that science was as complete as the science of today, he formed a school of thought which is still relevant today.

What are you talking about. He certainly had more of an education than those average people of his time, but NO ONE of his time, not even him, had any modern knowlege.

I have seen this tactic of "my god is real because his famous cheerleaders were smart" before, and it is nothing but garbage. Do not try to back pedal and say that wasn't what  you were doing. I wasn't born yesterday.

His contributions are one step in a multitude of contributions before and after his life and who he prayed to is not real by default because he observed something that hapend to match up to reality. He may have been smart enough to make an observation but he had no modern knowledge of what he was observing any more than the Greeks had any knowledge of electrons because they made up a word "atom" meaning that which could not be divided. And uttering the word |"atom|" certainly wouldn't make Athena a real god.

Just like any moron could say, "The sky is blue" that is an observation, but that doesn't mean the person saying it knows why it is blue. Aquinus being smart doesn't make Jesus a real deity anymore than a Muslim having a PHD in biology makes Allah real.

So, if you want me to give you the benifit of the doubt that you are NOT using a back door gap argument to interject your personal god claim, then please avoid using cheerleaders of the past as any semblence of evidence for anything divine. I have seen that tactic used by Muslims and Jews too, and it is just as absurd when a Christian does it.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37 wrote:What are you

Brian37 wrote:
What are you talking about. He certainly had more of an education than those average people of his time, but NO ONE of his time, not even him, had any modern knowlege.

Admittedly, Aquinas, like every other man before or since was a product of his times.  This does no negate the fact that he had a powerful intellect which he used to discern the truth of the world around him.  Pythagoras held certain views about the world which were demonstrably false, yet the fact that hsi view on, say, the shape of the earth were incorrect does not neate the contributions he made to geometry; Galileo probably held the beliefs of his times regarding the fact that diseases were caused by miasmas, but this mistaken belief does not invalidate his pioneering work in astronomy and physics. 

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I have seen this tactic of "my god is real because his famous cheerleaders were smart" before, and it is nothing but garbage. Do not try to back pedal and say that wasn't what  you were doing. I wasn't born yesterday.

His contributions are one step in a multitude of contributions before and after his life and who he prayed to is not real by default because he observed something that hapend to match up to reality. He may have been smart enough to make an observation but he had no modern knowledge of what he was observing any more than the Greeks had any knowledge of electrons because they made up a word "atom" meaning that which could not be divided. And uttering the word |"atom|" certainly wouldn't make Athena a real god.

This "garbage" pertains on both sides of the aisle here at RSS.  I was not saying that DeLgAdO should believe simply because Augustine and Aquinas and Chesterton believed.  These three made awesome cases for their belief, and I was recommending that he examine their case for belief closely in order to draw from and build on their wisdom, much as Galileo drew from and built on the works of Copernicus, much as the astronomical successors of Galileo drew from and built upon his work.  I urged a young man to study the thoughts of great thinkers, much as one might urge a person interested in quantum mechanics to read the works of Stephen Hawking or Brian Greene.  I didn't tell Delgado that the reason for belief was because LeMaitre believed and LeMaitre was so smart he hypothesized the Big Bang.

Aristotle thought some amazing things, Augustine built on the work of Aristotle; Aquinas built on the work of Aristotle and Aquinas; Chesterton drew on the works of all three, as well as numerous others.  Others have carried on that line of thought; Maritain, von Hildebrand, Bonhoefer. 

Very few of us think original thoughts, we all depend for our world view on those great thinkers and innovators who preceded us.  Granted, every once in a while, a genius comes along and shakes things up with some stunning and innovative insight, but other than that, the rest of us are pretty much dullards.  Even you, Brian, depend, for the most part, on the working of the mind of others.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II