A Challenge to Rick Warren and Joel Olsteen

Brian37
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A Challenge to Rick Warren and Joel Olsteen

Why won't you face atheists? What are you afraid of? Could it be that you have no intellectual defense for your magical claims? Could it be that if you did face us and debate us people who follow you might be given the better choice of reason and your bread and butter living would be at risk? Is that why you are afraid to face us? Because atheists are lifting the veil of the superstition exposing the man behind the curtain?

No, you don't have time for us. You are too busy selling books and making money expanding your empires. Don't feel bad, the Pope won't debate us either, nor will most Muslim Clerics and Jewish Rabbis. Intellectual bravery in theism is severely lacking.

You'll ignore this challenge, not because some magical being exists, but because you have no defense for such a claim. I love to be proven wrong and would welcome such a challenge.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Exactly which "magical

Exactly which "magical claims" of Rick Warren and Joel Osteen are you intending to dispute?

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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Being as they are Christians

Being as they are Christians I'd assume that they have "evidence" of HOW, not who knocked up Marry, and HOW human flesh survives after 3 days of death.

I'ts a shot in the dark like I said, I doubt they'll ever be brave enough to stand the scrutiny and the light of reason.

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No worries, Brian.Warren and

No worries, Brian.

Warren and Osteen don't preach that stuff anyway.

They're too busy making money preaching "God's purpose for you is to buy my books." and "It's God's will for you to be rich and to make me wealthy."

That Jesus stuff is just an annoyance to them.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:No worries,

jcgadfly wrote:

No worries, Brian.

Warren and Osteen don't preach that stuff anyway.

They're too busy making money preaching "God's purpose for you is to buy my books." and "It's God's will for you to be rich and to make me wealthy."

That Jesus stuff is just an annoyance to them.

Agreed.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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totus_tuus wrote:jcgadfly

totus_tuus wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

No worries, Brian.

Warren and Osteen don't preach that stuff anyway.

They're too busy making money preaching "God's purpose for you is to buy my books." and "It's God's will for you to be rich and to make me wealthy."

That Jesus stuff is just an annoyance to them.

Agreed.

Should I be worried on how quicly we agreed on that point? Smiling

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:Should I be

jcgadfly wrote:
Should I be worried on how quicly we agreed on that point? Smiling

No.  Not at all.  Osteen and Warren and Joyce Meyer and the like always put me in my mind the writings of St John of the Cross.  Particularly his observation that "I would not consider any spirituality worthwhile that wants to walk in sweetness and ease and run from the imitation of Christ."

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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Brian37 wrote:Why won't you

Brian37 wrote:

Why won't you face atheists? What are you afraid of? Could it be that you have no intellectual defense for your magical claims? Could it be that if you did face us and debate us people who follow you might be given the better choice of reason and your bread and butter living would be at risk? Is that why you are afraid to face us? Because atheists are lifting the veil of the superstition exposing the man behind the curtain?

No, you don't have time for us. You are too busy selling books and making money expanding your empires. Don't feel bad, the Pope won't debate us either, nor will most Muslim Clerics and Jewish Rabbis. Intellectual bravery in theism is severely lacking.

You'll ignore this challenge, not because some magical being exists, but because you have no defense for such a claim. I love to be proven wrong and would welcome such a challenge.

 

I have seen a lot of apologists say/state that they will only do a live debate against people who hold doctorates.

Fair enough.  I think the rest of us, in turn, should only do a live debate against God himself, if he has the sack to turn up.  I dislike the live debate format for these topics, too much slips through that wouldn't in writing.


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totus_tuus wrote:jcgadfly

totus_tuus wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Should I be worried on how quicly we agreed on that point? Smiling

No.  Not at all.  Osteen and Warren and Joyce Meyer and the like always put me in my mind the writings of St John of the Cross.  Particularly his observation that "I would not consider any spirituality worthwhile that wants to walk in sweetness and ease and run from the imitation of Christ."

So the mind-boggling wealth controlled by the Church imitates Christ how? Looks like a load of sweetness and ease to me.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Brian37 wrote:Why won't you

Brian37 wrote:

Why won't you face atheists? What are you afraid of? Could it be that you have no intellectual defense for your magical claims? Could it be that if you did face us and debate us people who follow you might be given the better choice of reason and your bread and butter living would be at risk? Is that why you are afraid to face us? Because atheists are lifting the veil of the superstition exposing the man behind the curtain?

No, you don't have time for us. You are too busy selling books and making money expanding your empires. Don't feel bad, the Pope won't debate us either, nor will most Muslim Clerics and Jewish Rabbis. Intellectual bravery in theism is severely lacking.

You'll ignore this challenge, not because some magical being exists, but because you have no defense for such a claim. I love to be proven wrong and would welcome such a challenge.

Riiiiiiiight  because Rick Warren and Olsteen read this message board.

They won't ignore this "challenge" because, guess what, they'll never see.

What in the world would be the point of posting this?????


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WillieBop wrote:Brian37

WillieBop wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Why won't you face atheists? What are you afraid of? Could it be that you have no intellectual defense for your magical claims? Could it be that if you did face us and debate us people who follow you might be given the better choice of reason and your bread and butter living would be at risk? Is that why you are afraid to face us? Because atheists are lifting the veil of the superstition exposing the man behind the curtain?

No, you don't have time for us. You are too busy selling books and making money expanding your empires. Don't feel bad, the Pope won't debate us either, nor will most Muslim Clerics and Jewish Rabbis. Intellectual bravery in theism is severely lacking.

You'll ignore this challenge, not because some magical being exists, but because you have no defense for such a claim. I love to be proven wrong and would welcome such a challenge.

Riiiiiiiight  because Rick Warren and Olsteen read this message board.

They won't ignore this "challenge" because, guess what, they'll never see.

What in the world would be the point of posting this?????

Willie, this type of venting is mostly in response to the theists who, after having various and sundry body parts handed to them in debate, respond with "You wouldn't be able to beat <noted theist X)> or <popular theist Y> in a debate. They'd mop the floor with you."

Instead, the noted theists duck challenges with noted atheists while writing books filled with claptrap.

Who knows? Maybe they do see these forums occasionally or they're informed by followers such as yourself.

So get to work and let those poster boys of theism know what's going on.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:WillieBop

jcgadfly wrote:

WillieBop wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Why won't you face atheists? What are you afraid of? Could it be that you have no intellectual defense for your magical claims? Could it be that if you did face us and debate us people who follow you might be given the better choice of reason and your bread and butter living would be at risk? Is that why you are afraid to face us? Because atheists are lifting the veil of the superstition exposing the man behind the curtain?

No, you don't have time for us. You are too busy selling books and making money expanding your empires. Don't feel bad, the Pope won't debate us either, nor will most Muslim Clerics and Jewish Rabbis. Intellectual bravery in theism is severely lacking.

You'll ignore this challenge, not because some magical being exists, but because you have no defense for such a claim. I love to be proven wrong and would welcome such a challenge.

Riiiiiiiight  because Rick Warren and Olsteen read this message board.

They won't ignore this "challenge" because, guess what, they'll never see.

What in the world would be the point of posting this?????

Willie, this type of venting is mostly in response to the theists who, after having various and sundry body parts handed to them in debate, respond with "You wouldn't be able to beat <noted theist X)> or <popular theist Y> in a debate. They'd mop the floor with you."

Instead, the noted theists duck challenges with noted atheists while writing books filled with claptrap.

Who knows? Maybe they do see these forums occasionally or they're informed by followers such as yourself.

So get to work and let those poster boys of theism know what's going on.

 

I guess. It wouldn't be  much of a trick to beat Warrne or Olsteen in a debate. It's not like they are critical thinkers. 


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WillieBop wrote:Brian37

WillieBop wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Why won't you face atheists? What are you afraid of? Could it be that you have no intellectual defense for your magical claims? Could it be that if you did face us and debate us people who follow you might be given the better choice of reason and your bread and butter living would be at risk? Is that why you are afraid to face us? Because atheists are lifting the veil of the superstition exposing the man behind the curtain?

No, you don't have time for us. You are too busy selling books and making money expanding your empires. Don't feel bad, the Pope won't debate us either, nor will most Muslim Clerics and Jewish Rabbis. Intellectual bravery in theism is severely lacking.

You'll ignore this challenge, not because some magical being exists, but because you have no defense for such a claim. I love to be proven wrong and would welcome such a challenge.

Riiiiiiiight  because Rick Warren and Olsteen read this message board.

They won't ignore this "challenge" because, guess what, they'll never see.

What in the world would be the point of posting this?????

I don't expect him to really, but some of their followers and there are 10s of thousands if not more, who may catch wind of this and stay to "defend" their faith.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37 wrote:WillieBop

Brian37 wrote:

WillieBop wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Why won't you face atheists? What are you afraid of? Could it be that you have no intellectual defense for your magical claims? Could it be that if you did face us and debate us people who follow you might be given the better choice of reason and your bread and butter living would be at risk? Is that why you are afraid to face us? Because atheists are lifting the veil of the superstition exposing the man behind the curtain?

No, you don't have time for us. You are too busy selling books and making money expanding your empires. Don't feel bad, the Pope won't debate us either, nor will most Muslim Clerics and Jewish Rabbis. Intellectual bravery in theism is severely lacking.

You'll ignore this challenge, not because some magical being exists, but because you have no defense for such a claim. I love to be proven wrong and would welcome such a challenge.

Riiiiiiiight  because Rick Warren and Olsteen read this message board.

They won't ignore this "challenge" because, guess what, they'll never see.

What in the world would be the point of posting this?????

I don't expect him to really, but some of their followers and there are 10s of thousands if not more, who may catch wind of this and stay to "defend" their faith.

 

I doubt if any of Warren's or Olsteen's followers would ever come to a place like this. They've built their lives on platitudes and not thinking about things. I can't see them coming to some place that would challenge them. But maybe they'll be googling one day and come across this.

 


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RRS is basically "banned

RRS is basically "banned from reading" by the pope and his kind, to it's followers.

   And so the likes of, wise Brian37's good sense reasoning, is not to be known by the idol worshiping blind sheep of that devil, god of abraham.   ( devil meaning, "wrong thinking" )     

  


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Brian37 wrote:Why won't you

Brian37 wrote:

Why won't you face atheists? What are you afraid of? Could it be that you have no intellectual defense for your magical claims? Could it be that if you did face us and debate us people who follow you might be given the better choice of reason and your bread and butter living would be at risk? Is that why you are afraid to face us? Because atheists are lifting the veil of the superstition exposing the man behind the curtain?

No, you don't have time for us. You are too busy selling books and making money expanding your empires. Don't feel bad, the Pope won't debate us either, nor will most Muslim Clerics and Jewish Rabbis. Intellectual bravery in theism is severely lacking.

You'll ignore this challenge, not because some magical being exists, but because you have no defense for such a claim. I love to be proven wrong and would welcome such a challenge.

 

why are you refering to false prophets?

i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name Laughing out loud


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WillieBop wrote:Brian37

WillieBop wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

WillieBop wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Why won't you face atheists? What are you afraid of? Could it be that you have no intellectual defense for your magical claims? Could it be that if you did face us and debate us people who follow you might be given the better choice of reason and your bread and butter living would be at risk? Is that why you are afraid to face us? Because atheists are lifting the veil of the superstition exposing the man behind the curtain?

No, you don't have time for us. You are too busy selling books and making money expanding your empires. Don't feel bad, the Pope won't debate us either, nor will most Muslim Clerics and Jewish Rabbis. Intellectual bravery in theism is severely lacking.

You'll ignore this challenge, not because some magical being exists, but because you have no defense for such a claim. I love to be proven wrong and would welcome such a challenge.

Riiiiiiiight  because Rick Warren and Olsteen read this message board.

They won't ignore this "challenge" because, guess what, they'll never see.

What in the world would be the point of posting this?????

I don't expect him to really, but some of their followers and there are 10s of thousands if not more, who may catch wind of this and stay to "defend" their faith.

 

I doubt if any of Warren's or Olsteen's followers would ever come to a place like this. They've built their lives on platitudes and not thinking about things. I can't see them coming to some place that would challenge them. But maybe they'll be googling one day and come across this.

 

 

your right they wouldnt because theyre not about gods buisness and all about having there best life now even though theyll go to hell for it, its like in luke 15 rich man had his good things, lazerus had his bad things, now lazerus if comforted and he is tormented in fire, you want to talk to true followers of christ, talk to one who stands for biblical truth and not foolish "religious" leaders who stand on the needs and wants of people. god will take care of there needs thats what give us this day our daily bread means, seek first his kingdom and his righteousness. Our father in heaven YOUR will be done. not ours.

i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name Laughing out loud


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were not as big a people as

were not as big a people as you may think.

 

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is thr road that leads to destruction, and many will enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leaves to life, and ONLY AFEW FIND IT.-matthew 7:13,14

 

My friend many on that day will say to him lord lord and he will declare to them "depart for me i never knew you, you workers of iniquity!"

i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name Laughing out loud


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Seems simple

 Narrow the gate and road to destruction and widen up the road to life.... after all, he's almighty. In fact, now that I think about it, why does it even matter since it's part of gods plan and doesn't much matter what I do. He's already dictated it before it happens. Whatever shall be shall be. A pathetic position in life, something very un-American. 

god -- I tried you on for size.... you were a little long in the crotch, loose in the waist, short in the length and you made my butt look extra flat. I had to take you back for an exchange.


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If his power has kept me

If his power has kept me off the broad way and on the narrow road how powerful and wonderful he is! for its impossible for me to do it on my own.

i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name Laughing out loud


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scole665 wrote: Narrow the

scole665 wrote:

 Narrow the gate and road to destruction and widen up the road to life.... after all, he's almighty. In fact, now that I think about it, why does it even matter since it's part of gods plan and doesn't much matter what I do. He's already dictated it before it happens. Whatever shall be shall be. A pathetic position in life, something very un-American. 

Your refering to fate, thats in the islamic koran, but its no where in the bible.

 

you have free will its just governed by a corrupt heart.

i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name Laughing out loud


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totus_tuus wrote:jcgadfly

totus_tuus wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Should I be worried on how quicly we agreed on that point? Smiling

No.  Not at all.  Osteen and Warren and Joyce Meyer and the like always put me in my mind the writings of St John of the Cross.  Particularly his observation that "I would not consider any spirituality worthwhile that wants to walk in sweetness and ease and run from the imitation of Christ."

 

 

So, would I be right in assuming you and other Xians are picketing their churches and calling for boycotts of their products because they are hypocrites and mocking your God?

 

Or, do you pat the little child on the head after he's been raped by Ol' Uncle JImmy and say, "Well, it's ok, son, he's part of the family and means well. That's the important thing."

 

Just so that's not too obscure: Or, do you just pass over the numerous religious figures that invoke Jesus's name to bilk people of their hard earned money? Just because they are Xian: one of the fold, the sheep, the family, the cult.

 

I am always curious as to how much Xians believe in their religion; in their Bible.  Did God come to Earth and give you commands or suggestions?  And if suggestions, why ignore them?  If Warren Buffet gives you financial suggestions do you lightly consider them? Or, more appropriately, if Saddam Hussien gave you a suggestion, would you ignore it?

 

The Bible is quite clear on invoking God's name in vain, false prophets, misleading teaching, the meaning of "Christian".  If Rick Warren and Joel Olsteen are corrupting God's Word, shouldn't you be stoning them or something... or whatever you Xians do to heretics?

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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let the weeds grow with the

let the weeds grow with the wheat. otherwise you rip out the wheat as you pull up the weeds, wait till they mature.

 

at harvest time the wheat will be harevested and stored in the barn, the weeds on the other hand, will be tied in bundles and burned.

and i am a christ-ian not a cross-tian, stop using the x.

i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name Laughing out loud


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DeLgAdO wrote:let the weeds

DeLgAdO wrote:

let the weeds grow with the wheat. otherwise you rip out the wheat as you pull up the weeds, wait till they mature.

 

at harvest time the wheat will be harevested and stored in the barn, the weeds on the other hand, will be tied in bundles and burned.

and i am a christ-ian not a cross-tian, stop using the x.

 

What does agricultural advice have to do with this?  Are Rick Warren and Joel Orsteen preaching God's Word correctly or not?  And what makes you a good Xian to call them weeds and have an opinion on this?

 

Oh, and look up the history of your god-damned religion.  The X was used long before you became ignorant of it.  You are a Xian.  You follow X-inanity.  Is the cross a symbol of your Christ now or not?  And why do you care?  You know what I mean. Probably the ONLY thing that we will agree on: you are Xian.

 

(Oh, and weeds are killed with herbicide early and often when planting crops.  It provides more crop which feeds more people.  Another thing Jesus was wrong about. Eye-wink )

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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DeLgAdOAtheist story

DeLgAdO

Atheist story character jesus can be a very cool mentor, who wrote nothing, just as buddha, just as socrates,  but to invent an idol is an error. Your use of the bible verses makes it obvious that you are one who has not awakened to what you are. Might jesus call you satan as he did passionate peter? To be "saved" is to be atheist, with no master, with no separation of the self from the unmeasurable nameless indescribable eternal infinite gawed which we are, as all is connected, as all is ONE.

Alan Watts, a popular mentor, was an atheist jesus fan too, who wrote the obvious,

"The religion of Jesus was that he knew he was a son of God, and the phrase "son of " means "of the nature of," so that a son of God is an individual who realizes that he is, and always has been, one with God. "I and the Father are one." .......... and,  "Let this mind be in you." that is to say, let the same kind of [rational] consciousness be in you that was in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ knew he was God." [ you and all are christ too ]

"Wake up" [said a buddha] and find out eventually who you also really are [ god ]. In our culture of course, they'll say you're crazy or you're blasphemous, and they'll either put you in jail or in the nut house (which is the same thing). But if you wake up in India and tell your friends and relations, "My goodness, I've just discovered that I'm God," they'll laugh and say, "Oh, congratulations, at last you found out." ~ Alan Watts

    What is g-o-d NOT ??? Explain time, all you that claim to know a separate g-o-d from us. It is easy to see what is invented dogma and not proven true. Why presume what we cannot know? I say we are god, but I make no claim to know what our science has yet to even answer in it's study of existence (g-awe-d).   

'To know the good is to do the good.' ~ Socrates

500 BC - Buddha consciousness - 'I am in the father and the father in me'. (father/comos)  ..... Jesus agreed. I agree. We are ONE.

Good luck, thanks for caring (me too) , as best we can. let's tell no lies. *


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you didnt understand the

you didnt understand the parable did you?

 

though seeing, they do not see; though hearing they do not hear nor understand

in them is fufilled the prophesy of isaiah.

 

you will be ever hearing but never understanding;

you will be ever seeing but never percieving.

for this peoples hearts have become calloused;

they hardly hear with there ears,

and they have closed their eyes

otherwise they might see with their ears,

understand with there hearts

and in turn i will heal them.

 

and the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to those being saved it is the power of god. The cross is a symbol of how vile i was and that it would take the blood of the son of god to wash it all away.

"And what makes you a good Xian to call them weeds and have an opinion on this?"

and there are no good christians, just an infinity worthy, gracious and good god to make wicked, vile radically depraved sinners like me justified before him.

 

I have given you authority to trample snakes and scorpions and to overcome the power of the enemy, nothing will harm you.-luke 10:19

i speak not on my own authority, but under the authority of another.

 

 

i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name Laughing out loud


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DeLgAdO wrote: you have

DeLgAdO wrote:

 

you have free will its just governed by a corrupt heart.

I could answer you, but really don't have the time.

May I suggest, from the works of Hamby....

Free Will: Why we don't have it, and why that's a good thing.

 


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DeLgAdO wrote: The cross is

DeLgAdO wrote:

 The cross is a symbol of how vile i was and that it would take the blood of the son of god to wash it all away.

 

It's the bible and your religion that calls you vile... you're not vile (extremely unpleasant).  I find you humorous and interesting.  I accept you as you are, the way your god made you. 

DeLgAdO wrote:

I have given you authority to trample snakes and scorpions and to overcome the power of the enemy, nothing will harm you.-luke 10:19

I have to ask, is the "You" in "nothing will harm you" a reference to your personal body or to your soul? Because if you think that a trampled snake won't hurt you physically, don't be around a rattlesnake or a cobra, especially the big ones. They will hurt you. If you think it's your soul then we don't have to discuss it any further.  Why is the perfect book so hard to people to understand... god did create the english language, right?

god -- I tried you on for size.... you were a little long in the crotch, loose in the waist, short in the length and you made my butt look extra flat. I had to take you back for an exchange.


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I was a Xian until I was

I was a Xian until I was 20-25, I know exactly what you are trying to do.  I am trying to force you to think for yourself and now rip quotes from a book to support your subjective beliefs.

DeLgAdO wrote:

i speak not on my own authority, but under the authority of another.

 

"another"?  Who exactly? What exactly?

 

1. You did not answer the question posed to you.

2. How did you determine the the authority of this "another"? You used your own authority to determine that "It" is authoritative.  Had you been raised in Iran, you would accept another authority.  YOU determined which religion to follow. YOU determined which "another" you would accept as authority.

 

Another attempt by a religionist to have their own subjective opinion raised to objective standards by invoking the guttural noise "god".

 

Gee, I say the Bible isn't authority based on MY "another". I win. Is this how it works in the religionist world?

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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jcgadfly wrote:So the

jcgadfly wrote:
So the mind-boggling wealth controlled by the Church imitates Christ how? Looks like a load of sweetness and ease to me.

Perhaps it does.  Are we speaking hear of the extarvagance of church buildings?  The material or coprprate wealth of the Church?  Cash? 

If we discuss this here, do we risk derailing this thread?  If so, feel free to begin another and I'll join you there.  If not, lemme know which aspect of the Church's wealth you'd like to discuss and we'll go from there.  I'll warn you though, you may find my opinions to be more in agreement with you than you'd think.

PS....sorry I've been so long in replying.   It's been a very busy summer, and to be frank, I'm not well, but doing better than I was.

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daedulus wrote:So, would I

daedulus wrote:
So, would I be right in assuming you and other Xians are picketing their churches and calling for boycotts of their products because they are hypocrites and mocking your God?

No.  I will engage their followers in a spirit of fraternal correction however.  Christianity is not about personal wealth and comfort.  The "prosperity gospel" theology is a crock.

Quote:
Or, do you pat the little child on the head after he's been raped by Ol' Uncle JImmy and say, "Well, it's ok, son, he's part of the family and means well. That's the important thing."

No.  What this has to do with Osteen and Warren, I have no idea.  It's obvious, though, that Ol' Uncle Jimmy never meant well, though.

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I am always curious as to how much Xians believe in their religion; in their Bible.  Did God come to Earth and give you commands or suggestions?

Commands.

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The Bible is quite clear on invoking God's name in vain, false prophets, misleading teaching, the meaning of "Christian".  If Rick Warren and Joel Olsteen are corrupting God's Word, shouldn't you be stoning them or something... or whatever you Xians do to heretics?

We used to.  It wasn't effective either.  In any event, and to quote a well known political figure, "it's above my pay grade."

 

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DeLgAdO wrote:I have given

DeLgAdO wrote:

I have given you authority to trample snakes and scorpions and to overcome the power of the enemy, nothing will harm you.-luke 10:19

i speak not on my own authority, but under the authority of another.

 

Now this is the signs of mental illness, which has lead so many other to commit such atrocities against humanity, because they were commanded by their god/deity and have their authority to do so. Anything and EVERYTHING is justifiable with god, any atrocity can be easily justified.


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DeLgAdO wrote:let the weeds

DeLgAdO wrote:

let the weeds grow with the wheat. otherwise you rip out the wheat as you pull up the weeds, wait till they mature.

 

at harvest time the wheat will be harevested and stored in the barn, the weeds on the other hand, will be tied in bundles and burned.

and i am a christ-ian not a cross-tian, stop using the x.

Translation, " I hate Catholics"

I know you dont in reality, but that is such a bullshit statement since you BOTH believe that Jesus was the one true son of the one true god.

THAT  is what you DO have in common with Catholics all symbolism and interpretation aside"

All Christians, or any other label of religion for that matter, all religious people are in religions with MULTIPLE SECTS!

ALL OF YOU, not just Christians, but Muslims and Jews and I am quite sure Scientology will split in the future as well. ALL OF YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE "TRUE SCOTSMAN" fallacy!

Start with that before you accuse us of "lumping" you in with others. We are not idiots, we know that people can, and as you demonstrate, disagree with even those who proclaim the same deity.

Your problem is you have the same amount of evidence for your view as they do for theirs as Muslims have for their different sects.

When we say "Cross" we are not addressing a sect, we are rejecting the claim that a dead human being can survive rigor mortis. I would presume that both the Baptist, Catholic and Unitarian Christian buy the naked assertion that a man escaped death magically after 3 days.

Don't worry, I expect the back peddling, but don't feel bad, the other "sects" do it too.

 

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I'm not seeing how you got

I'm not seeing how you got this:

Brian37 wrote:
Translation, " I hate Catholics"

from this:

DeLgAdO wrote:
and i am a christ-ian not a cross-tian, stop using the x.

Could you explain?  Thanks.

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totus_tuus wrote:I'm not

totus_tuus wrote:

I'm not seeing how you got this:

Brian37 wrote:
Translation, " I hate Catholics"

from this:

DeLgAdO wrote:
and i am a christ-ian not a cross-tian, stop using the x.

Could you explain?  Thanks.

That's becaue you think you are "different". Untill you understand you are not, I could explain untill I am blue in the face and it won't make a difference.

I know you don't hate cathoics, but you DO think you DONT worship idols like they do.

MY POINT IS THAT YOUR DIFFERENCES DON'T MATTER!

Catholics have the same thing in common with Baptists with Mormons with JWS. You all believe that a ghost knocked up a girl and that human flesh can survive rigor mortis.

And you, and "they" or whomever the "cross worshipers" are, you don't want to associate with all worship the same GOD!

TOO BAD, Jesus by any other name is still a myth. Allah by any other name is still a myth.  I cant help you with your delusion if you don't want help anymore than I could if a Muslim told me all the other sects of Islam were wrong.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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I think, Brian, that there's

I think, Brian, that there's some confusion here, and perhaps it's my fault.  By I am questioning your interpretation of DeLgAdO's statement.  I think that in your haste, you've misread and think that I'm DeLgAdO.  I know, though, for certain that I don't dislike Catholics at all.  I am Catholic.  I have no idea which denomination DeLgAdO professes.

I don't think DeLgAdO was objecting to any form of idolatry in any event.  It looks to me that he was objecting to being addressed as a "Xtian" as opposed to a "Christian".

I agree that our differences really don't matter that much, but not for the reasons you assume they don't, as we all certainly do worship the same God. 

I do, indeed, believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ.  I do, indeed, subscribe to the history that Jesus Christ, God as man, walked this earth.  I cling firmly to a belief in the Resurrection of the same Jesus Christ from the dead, for therein lies my hope, and "he who has hope lives differently". 

There are a lot of things we really don't understand, aren't there?  Would a child born of a virgin be the wierdest thing ever to have happened in the history of the Cosmos?  Could the reanimation of dead flesh be any stranger than the quantum singularity which was the birth of the Universe? 

What's the count now, Brian; eleven dimensions of spacetime possible?  We know four of them.  What could be accomplished using the rest of those dmensions?  Look at the wierdness of quantum entanglement and tell em with a straight face that a Virgin birth is any starnger than that.  Get over it, Brian.  We believe that much stranger things have and are and do happen.

 

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totus_tuus , Geezz, you

totus_tuus , Geezz, you really believe that literally? Why? What about the other similar mythologies??? Those too? If yes which ones?  I guess, 'what if the bible was never written , is a null question because it was gods plan?' Right?

Man oh man, that is a mountain of faith ! I have a hard time believing the religious are sincere, a mental block of mine for sure. Wow, the 21st century is still so dark. Wish I could check back in a future 1000 more .... Shucks darn it.    

Hey, maybe you can add a tad to this current thread?

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/15275

 


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:Geezz,

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:
Geezz, you really believe that literally? Why?

I most certainly do. 

The "why" of it is gonna require at least another paragraph.  Admittedly some of my reasons for belief are based in emotion on which I'll not expound here.  In and of itself, emotion is not a bad thing, however, basing anything that one believes wholly in emotion is not sufficient.  Bear in mind, now, that I'm an old soldier who has always considered "book learning" to be unbecoming a soldier, but the classical arguments for the existence of God seem reasonable enough to me.  Aquinas had it going on.  I am no logician, but refutations of those arguments seem to me to be nothing more than verbal gymnastics. 

Quote:
Why? What about the other similar mythologies??? Those too? If yes which ones? 

All religions possess elements of the Truth, but only elements.  None attain to the whole Truth, which is this, that a Creator God made mankind to share in His creation, to be partners with Him in administering it; that through his own actions and by his own choice Man interfered with this plan of God; and that this Creator God promised and sent One to redeem and reconcile those who had perverted His intention for His Creation.  Bear in mind that this is only a one sentence summary of salvation history.

Which mythologies are similar to that?  Is Greek mythology anywhere near that?  No, the Greeks saw the gods as pranksters and squabblers vying for attention and power, whose only interest in man were as pawns and playthings.  What about the Romans?  No, the Roman gods were all business, offer the right sacrifice to the right god and get your ticket punched til the next time you needed something.  Norse mythology, maybe?  Not hardly, mankind was simply a recruiting ground for warriors to participate in an ongoing struggle amongst the deities.  Shintoism, with its infinite kami?   Some animist religion?  Pantheism?  Humanism?  None fit the bill.  None realize, as I do, and as I think you do, that we are the problem, but that we are not possessed of the solution.

Quote:
I guess, 'what if the bible was never written , is a null question because it was gods plan?' Right?

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

Quote:
Man oh man, that is a mountain of faith !

Not nearly.

Quote:
Wow, the 21st century is still so dark.

Aye, that it is.

Quote:
Wish I could check back in a future 1000 more .... Shucks darn it.

You might could.  It's not too late.  

Quote:
Hey, maybe you can add a tad to this current thread?

I'll consider it, but they seem to be waxing scientific, and science is not my strong suit.  I know enough of science to allow me to gain and maintain contact with the enemy, and to destroy him with fire and maneuver.

 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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totus_tuus wrote:No. I

totus_tuus wrote:
No.  I will engage their followers in a spirit of fraternal correction however.  Christianity is not about personal wealth and comfort.  The "prosperity gospel" theology is a crock.

 

So, it is a corruption of God's Word, which makes it against God (since it is not FOR God - according to His Word).  Which makes them preaching against God.

Yet, you call them Xian and brothers. His Satan a Brother, too, since he believes in Jesus and preaches the Gospel (although a corrupted version)?

 

 

Delgado: if you are offended by "xian" I will call you an xpian.  Surely you have no problem with that.

 

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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daedalus wrote:So, it is a

daedalus wrote:
So, it is a corruption of God's Word, which makes it against God (since it is not FOR God - according to His Word).  Which makes them preaching against God.

"Prosperity gospel" contains elements of the Truth, but is not the whole Truth as revealed.  It is, indeed, an imperfect message.

Quote:
Yet, you call them Xian...

I do call them Christian, yes.

Quote:
...and brothers.

Yes, and you are my brother as well (I'm making a gender assumtion here).

Quote:
His Satan a Brother, too,...

I suppose he is.

Quote:
...since he believes in Jesus

And he trembles.

Quote:
and preaches the Gospel (although a corrupted version)?

I'm sure one could find a way to call that which is directly opposed to the teaching of the Gospel to be a corruption of it, but I think it'd take quite a bit of verbal gymnastics to do so.  It'd be a lot like trying to make YEC into a corruption of what we know of cosmology (or vice versa).

 

 

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So, everyone is a Brother or

So, everyone is a Brother or Sister to you?  I guess its like the Muslims believe everyone is a Muslim.

 

Anyhow, so all these people you feel are preaching the Gospel incorrectly (we will assume for the moment that you know what the true gospel is: that you've studied the original language, studied the Bible, commentary on it, etc.. (Basically, respected your belief that God wrote a book for you so you took it seriously enough to want to know what God is saying to you.)

 

Why would you not heed the calls to reject them, speak out against them and call them to task?  Is this because you can judge other peoples morality when it is adultery, but you let blasphemy flourish?

I suppose I am happy. Since I would have been burned at the stake years ago, I am glad Xpians don't raise a cry over blasphemy any more.

 

It's a good thing there aren't any commands in the Bible against false teaching, and what to do to those people... oops...

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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daedalus wrote:So, everyone

daedalus wrote:
So, everyone is a Brother or Sister to you?

Yes.  Is this, like my theism, a delusion and a dangerous concept?

Quote:
Anyhow, so all these people you feel are preaching the Gospel incorrectly (we will assume for the moment that you know what the true gospel is: that you've studied the original language, studied the Bible, commentary on it, etc.. (Basically, respected your belief that God wrote a book for you so you took it seriously enough to want to know what God is saying to you.)

Not in the original languages, no.  But then again, I accept currrent cosmology and evolution and physics without totally understanding those languages.  I have read and own a few Bible commentaries, yes.  I rely on the teaching authority of the Church established by Jesus Christ.  Further, bear in mind that Scripture is only a third of Divine Revelation, the other two thirds are the aforementioned teaching authority, and the oral Traditions passed down by the Jesus Christ through the Apostles.

Quote:
Why would you not heed the calls to reject them, speak out against them and call them to task?  Is this because you can judge other peoples morality when it is adultery, but you let blasphemy flourish?

I do call them to task.  In fact, this exchange began with you quoting me doing so.  Further, i don't judge others, I acknowledge error when I see it, it is not my place to judge.  Indeed, I've been guilty of error myself, and yes, I've been rather harsh on myself at times because of it.  I don't claim perfection, nor any sort of moral high ground.

Quote:
I suppose I am happy. Since I would have been burned at the stake years ago, I am glad Xpians don't raise a cry over blasphemy any more.

As am I.  I'd be in serious trouble as well.

 

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I never understood "don't

I never understood "don't judge". We all innately judge everything.

To study g-awe-d, look at all nature and embrace all the sciences, A - Z. The bibles serve best as a lesson of human wrong thinking.

Saying a g-o-d communicated to humanity thru a special book, is like saying g-o-d used tin cans and string. Umm g-o-d is stuck in the primitive past. Sends miracle god son man, but can't get a hang on technology.

I'm sadly amazed and embarrassed by modern people idol worshipers, and that ancient god of abe invention that the religious hold onto. Theology is the study of falsehoods. 

  Save a christian etc, spread the "good word" of atheism. We are all one, we are g-o-d. All is connected, just as story atheist jesus a buddha tried to simply say. Damn stupid blind sick church, needs serious deep healing. "Love the enemy" as meaning understand the enemy within, and outward.

Say god, I smile, say religion, I scowl .... and so jesus wept, as I ....

We are stardust, we are BIG BANG dust, and of all that came before, obviously .... and so now why make up, or hold on to religious idol worship of the obvious, that we are simply the force. We seem special on this speck of dust we call earth, but why assume that the force had us in mind ? Why assume the force has a mind ???  Religion is fucking STUPID. I am the force, as you, and so we EXIST. SIMPLE. There is nothing to worship as is in religion, oh but YES , the awe of this , all we are ! WOW.

 


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totus_tuus wrote:Not in the

totus_tuus wrote:
Not in the original languages, no.  But then again, I accept currrent cosmology and evolution and physics without totally understanding those languages.
They were written by Man.  They are discoveries that Man has made and are of minor importance if a God exists: they only describe the "dumb" material of the Universe, not the moral inner workings of the Soul.

Even if science is describing God's Creation, it is not translating and transmitting commands of morality and salvation from God.

 

However, if Xpianity is right, then God made a huge effort to visit the planet for a few decades for you, teach for a few years to you, die for you, and sacrifice himself to himself for you.  Some decades later he had people write down his escapades for you - in rather ambiguous language (and, language is rather ambiguous anyhow).

 

And you say:

Quote:
I have read and own a few Bible commentaries, yes.  I rely on the teaching authority of the Church established by Jesus Christ.  Further, bear in mind that Scripture is only a third of Divine Revelation, the other two thirds are the aforementioned teaching authority, and the oral Traditions passed down by the Jesus Christ through the Apostles.

As do most Xpians.  It's as if you said: "Cervantes is the greatest writer on the planet. I love and respect him - but I'm not going to learn Spanish." Except that that would be a human opinion regarding another human.

Your claim is that a Perfect Being that you wish to curry favor with, that you sincerely believe in, Love and Fear, and claim to do anything for to avoid Hell wrote to you, but you are only reading what someone else's opinion is of what God wrote.

 

I simply find this aspect of Xpian blind acceptance mind-boggling.  You are admitting that you will follow what other people say. You are accepting the authority of people to translate God's very Word to you because they claim they have it right.

 

You have Faith in yourself to accurately choose who to have Faith in to translate God's Word so you can have Faith in God and save yourself from your sinful (imperfect) nature.

 

BTW, your church is not the church Jesus Christ founded, it just claims to be (as do all the others).  I would also add that your Bible is not the real Bible, but if any comes close it is Marcion's.  Marcion's Canon is the only true Bible.

 

So, I would accept that you know what you're talking about if you knew the original language of the Bible, but now your entire argument is the Fallacy of the Argument from Authority: Your authority for picking which authorities to listen to, and then citing a group of Authorities as if they have greater authority than other people who follow Xpianity.

 

Keep in mind, you only cite the reasons that your church rejects Marcion, or the Gnostics, or other gospels (there were many) - since you haven't read the original works and learned the theology that God Himself wrote to you and then compared that knowledge to the other works, you are simply claiming to be a sheep of a massive organization with a particular mascot. 

Respectfully, I say unto thee: You are a fan of Christ, not a follower (as are 99.9% of Xpians), as I am a fan of the Patriots, not a player.  And I probably know more about the Patriots than you do about God's very Word that you claim he wrote for your salvation, created the very universe, managed to overcome the problem of entering into the Natural World from the Supernatural realm, lived and died and inspired men to write a book about it.

 

Doesn't this seem odd to you? That you never really cared to know what God was trying to say to you except for listening to the opinion of others?  Is that really what Christ expected when he asked people to give up everything to follow him? To drop what they were doing, leave their families and rid themselves of their possessions?

 

It seems to me, that you have your own prosperity gospel, you just don't see it as such.  50% of the world lives on less than a dollar a day, but you are fine because you have a good job, make a good living and tithe 10%?

 

Of the commands that Jesus said on the Mount, which ones have you heeded?  Or, were they just suggestions?

Quote:
I do call them to task.  In fact, this exchange began with you quoting me doing so.  Further, i don't judge others, I acknowledge error when I see it, it is not my place to judge.  Indeed, I've been guilty of error myself, and yes, I've been rather harsh on myself at times because of it.  I don't claim perfection, nor any sort of moral high ground.

Ah, yes, the great "out" for Xpians: "I'm a sinner and imperfect! I can't possibly be expected to follow anything God said - but I believe He REALLY exists and has a hand in my life, etc..."

 

How much have you tried to get rid of your possessions?  For a few dollars you can put an add in the paper.  Even call your local church and donate it.  What other suggestions/commands did God make to you that you reject?

After all, your God said it, not me.  I'd encourage you to keep your stuff, but then, I reject the Holy Spirit, Jesus and God, so you may want to listen to Jesus, since you believe so strongly in Him, rather than me, a Hell-bound atheist.

The thing that gets me about this is that we both believe in gravity, but I don't casually walk off tall buildings expecting to get a pass from the Law of Gravity.  I REALLY believe in gravity.

You, and other xpians, claim to REALLY believe in Jesus/God, yet you often expect to get a pass from His Laws.  Why?  Because you claim that you have Faith in Jesus. That you believe so strongly in the reality and redemption of Jesus.

 

But you couldn't be bothered to read what he said in his own words, or even try to follow what translations you do have. You just follow what other people say and give them money for saying it. You are trying to buy your way into heaven: give to your local church and have them tell you you are doing fine.

 

Something about a camel and a needle comes to mind.

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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IAGAY wrote:I never

IAGAY wrote:
I never understood "don't judge". We all innately judge everything.

I hope you forgive my familiarity, I assume you don't mind if I call you by your nickname.  LOL!

Of course we judge things.  We weigh evidence and make decisions daily, there's no avoiding it.  I even judge the actions of people, but I can recognize the evil of substance addiction without judging the addict, I can judge adultery to be injurious to human relationships without hating the adulterer (hell, I've been guilty on this count myself). 

Quote:
To study g-awe-d, look at all nature and embrace all the sciences, A - Z. The bibles serve best as a lesson of human wrong thinking.

Saying a g-o-d communicated to humanity thru a special book, is like saying g-o-d used tin cans and string. Umm g-o-d is stuck in the primitive past. Sends miracle god son man, but can't get a hang on technology.

He gave us His Word, not His book.  The "book" is only part of His Word, the book leaves one with an incomplete catalog of Divine Revelation.  That Revelation is actually pretty explicit.

Quote:
Save a christian etc, spread the "good word" of atheism. We are all one, we are g-o-d. All is connected, just as story atheist jesus a buddha tried to simply say. Damn stupid blind sick church, needs serious deep healing. "Love the enemy" as meaning understand the enemy within, and outward.

Yeah, Buddha, the God within, whatever.  It don't work, broken concept.

Jesus was a member of Church, an observant Jew.  He founded a Church for the salvation of sinners.  The Church needs healing indeed exactly because it's composed of sinners, if we were all capable of becoming what we are meant to be in and of ourselves, there'd be no need for a Church. 

Indeed we need to understand the enemy within, we need to master ourselves.  Perhaps that's the reason Christianity calls for self-discipline, self-denial, adherence to certain standards of behavior.  It calls for us to act in ways which run counter to our individual self interest.  Contrary to the view you espouse, the solution is not simple, it's hard work.

 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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totus_tuus wrote:I even

totus_tuus wrote:
I even judge the actions of people, but I can recognize the evil of substance addiction without judging the addict,
Some people are addicted to drugs that save their lives or make their lives better.  By judging the addiction and not the addicted you are simply making a blanket judgement.

Quote:
 I can judge adultery to be injurious to human relationships without hating the adulterer (hell, I've been guilty on this count myself).
Some people enjoy adultery and it maintains their marriage, or somhow benefits their life and the people around them.  By judging adultery and not the adulterer you are making a blanket statement for all people.

I am also reminded that Mary had an extramarital affair.

 

BTW, are you saying you are an adulterer or have judged adulterers?

Quote:
He gave us His Word, not His book.  The "book" is only part of His Word, the book leaves one with an incomplete catalog of Divine Revelation.  That Revelation is actually pretty explicit.
Andrea Yates had a revelation of God. How do we determine if yours is from God or is from a chemical imbalance?

Quote:
Jesus was a member of Church, an observant Jew.  He founded a Church for the salvation of sinners.  The Church needs healing indeed exactly because it's composed of sinners, if we were all capable of becoming what we are meant to be in and of ourselves, there'd be no need for a Church.
He formed a church that was heretical to the existing religious establishment.  I find this odd because many people have tried to do the same thing but were decared heretics.

 

Other than the stories from the Bible, how do you know that these other people are wrong?  After all, God, it seems, has decieved people into forming wrong churches all the time (the Jews had the wrong idea, as did the Xians according to Muslims). 

Quote:
Indeed we need to understand the enemy within, we need to master ourselves.  Perhaps that's the reason Christianity calls for self-discipline, self-denial, adherence to certain standards of behavior.  It calls for us to act in ways which run counter to our individual self interest.  Contrary to the view you espouse, the solution is not simple, it's hard work.
How so?  Xianity is all about saving your own skin for the next life.  You even admitted that you don't stop other people from preaching the wrong message, you only care if YOU get it right.

 

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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daedalus wrote:They were

daedalus wrote:
They were written by Man.  They are discoveries that Man has made and are of minor importance if a God exists: they only describe the "dumb" material of the Universe, not the moral inner workings of the Soul.

Sorry, I'm confused here.  What is the "they" that were written by Man.  I'm not certain wether ypu are speaking of Scriprues or scinces here.

Quote:
Even if science is describing God's Creation, it is not translating and transmitting commands of morality and salvation from God.

I'm in perfect agreement with you here.

Quote:
However, if Xpianity is right, then God made a huge effort to visit the planet for a few decades for you, teach for a few years to you, die for you, and sacrifice himself to himself for you.  Some decades later he had people write down his escapades for you - in rather ambiguous language (and, language is rather ambiguous anyhow).

And mostly in agreement with you here.  Although I would venture to guess our dating of the Gospels would conflict, but that's an issue which would seriously derail this thread.

Quote:
As do most Xpians.  It's as if you said: "Cervantes is the greatest writer on the planet. I love and respect him - but I'm not going to learn Spanish." Except that that would be a human opinion regarding another human.

Your claim is that a Perfect Being that you wish to curry favor with, that you sincerely believe in, Love and Fear, and claim to do anything for to avoid Hell wrote to you, but you are only reading what someone else's opinion is of what God wrote.

 I simply find this aspect of Xpian blind acceptance mind-boggling.  You are admitting that you will follow what other people say. You are accepting the authority of people to translate God's very Word to you because they claim they have it right.

 You have Faith in yourself to accurately choose who to have Faith in to translate God's Word so you can have Faith in God and save yourself from your sinful (imperfect) nature.

 BTW, your church is not the church Jesus Christ founded, it just claims to be (as do all the others).  I would also add that your Bible is not the real Bible, but if any comes close it is Marcion's.  Marcion's Canon is the only true Bible.

My capacity for languaes is limited, therefore I have chosen to study those languages I need to function on a daily basis, English because it seems to be the language most people speak in the society in which I live; German because that's the language some of the older folks around the house spoke when I was a kid; Spanish because I function often in a biblingual environment at work.  I have to rely on the ability of others to understand the languages in which Scripture was written, much like I must rely on scientists to translatethe data of their experiments for me.

Quote:
So, I would accept that you know what you're talking about if you knew the original language of the Bible, but now your entire argument is the Fallacy of the Argument from Authority: Your authority for picking which authorities to listen to, and then citing a group of Authorities as if they have greater authority than other people who follow Xpianity.

Much of what we claim to "know", we have no proper title to.  This knowledge is conveyed to us through "authorities" in whom we put our trust.  We call these authorities "teachers".

Allow me tp provide an example.  I am not a scientist, in fact, I am not particularly well versed in science at all, but I do find science fascinating.  In a couole of months they're gonna fire up CERN's Large Hadron super collider and smash some stuff into some other stuff really fast.  Something really cool is gonna happen and some other stuff is gonna show up which will teach us something about the origins of the universe.  I'm not gonna be there to see it happen, so I'm gonna have to rely on the word of the scientists who are there to tell me waht happened.  In fact, even if I was there, I'd need someone to tell me waht happened, because the only thing I'd be able to say is, "Hey, look, that needle just jumped", or "Look at the pretty colors", or "Oh shit, that;s what a black hole looks li.....aaaarrghhhhhh!!!!!!!!!.........."

Now, my point is this.  I've never see a photon, but scientists tell me they exist, and I accept that.  I didn't see the Big Bang happen, but scientists tell me that it is probably how the universe originated, and I accept that.  Likewise Homer wrote some books, Julius Caesar defeated vercingetorix at Alesia, Don Juan smashed the Turkish fleet at Lepanto, the Wright brothers flew an airplane at Kitty Hawk, Hitler invaded Poland.  All these things I have no proper knowledge of, but I accept on the authority of others.  We are all victims of "authority".  No one, not a single person, possesses proper knowledge of everything he "knows".

Quote:
Doesn't this seem odd to you? That you never really cared to know what God was trying to say to you except for listening to the opinion of others?  Is that really what Christ expected when he asked people to give up everything to follow him? To drop what they were doing, leave their families and rid themselves of their possessions?

But I wasn't called to the ministry as Jesus called this young man.  I was called to other responsibilities in life.  More on that in the next section.

Quote:
It seems to me, that you have your own prosperity gospel, you just don't see it as such.  50% of the world lives on less than a dollar a day, but you are fine because you have a good job, make a good living and tithe 10%?

I dunno where you got your informaion on just how wealthy I am, it certainly is not proper knowledge, not can it be knowledge gained through an intermediate authority.  My call in life has been to raise a family of six, and two chidren by another woman.  I'm a single parent.  Needless to say, we don't have much, but manage to keep body and soul together.  We are certainly not wealthy.  My responsibilty has not been to follow Jesus into His ministry but toprovide for my children.  I do what I can for those who don't have.  Most of that is in the form of labor, which I also encourage my children to do (with varying degreees of success).

Quote:
Ah, yes, the great "out" for Xpians: "I'm a sinner and imperfect! I can't possibly be expected to follow anything God said - but I believe He REALLY exists and has a hand in my life, etc..."

 How much have you tried to get rid of your possessions?  For a few dollars you can put an add in the paper.  Even call your local church and donate it.  What other suggestions/commands did God make to you that you reject?

After all, your God said it, not me.  I'd encourage you to keep your stuff, but then, I reject the Holy Spirit, Jesus and God, so you may want to listen to Jesus, since you believe so strongly in Him, rather than me, a Hell-bound atheist.

The thing that gets me about this is that we both believe in gravity, but I don't casually walk off tall buildings expecting to get a pass from the Law of Gravity.  I REALLY believe in gravity.

You, and other xpians, claim to REALLY believe in Jesus/God, yet you often expect to get a pass from His Laws.  Why?  Because you claim that you have Faith in Jesus. That you believe so strongly in the reality and redemption of Jesus.

 But you couldn't be bothered to read what he said in his own words, or even try to follow what translations you do have. You just follow what other people say and give them money for saying it. You are trying to buy your way into heaven: give to your local church and have them tell you you are doing fine.

If we were all capable of achieving perfection on our own, there'd be no need for a Church.  The Church was founded by Christ for the salvation of sinners, hence it is composed of (surprise!) sinners.  I strive to live the Gospel with varying degrees of success at various times.

See, here's the rub.  It's easy to achive perfection when the only standard we hold ourselves to is a subjective standard.  Hence, you have the ability to look at me and berate me for my failure to achieve the objectuve standard I believe is imposed on us. 

Now, I never said that you were "hell-bound".  Nor would I.  I don't know you, and it is, to borrow a quote from Barack Obama "above my pay grade".  Based on the empirical evidence for the existence of a deity, you could well be right, we could be on our own, but the evidence for that is pretty flimsy.  In any event, the silliness of the idea that what's right for me is right for me as long as I don't infringe on the rights of others is a crock.

I hope I addressed all of your concerns.  You were kinda all over the place with this one.  It might be easier to focus one one issue rather than shotgunning it, but do carry on.

 

 

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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totus_tuus wrote:daedalus

totus_tuus wrote:

daedalus wrote:
They were written by Man.  They are discoveries that Man has made and are of minor importance if a God exists: they only describe the "dumb" material of the Universe, not the moral inner workings of the Soul.

Sorry, I'm confused here.  What is the "they" that were written by Man.  I'm not certain wether ypu are speaking of Scriprues or scinces here.

Quote:
Even if science is describing God's Creation, it is not translating and transmitting commands of morality and salvation from God.

I'm in perfect agreement with you here.

Quote:
However, if Xpianity is right, then God made a huge effort to visit the planet for a few decades for you, teach for a few years to you, die for you, and sacrifice himself to himself for you.  Some decades later he had people write down his escapades for you - in rather ambiguous language (and, language is rather ambiguous anyhow).

And mostly in agreement with you here.  Although I would venture to guess our dating of the Gospels would conflict, but that's an issue which would seriously derail this thread.

Quote:
As do most Xpians.  It's as if you said: "Cervantes is the greatest writer on the planet. I love and respect him - but I'm not going to learn Spanish." Except that that would be a human opinion regarding another human.

Your claim is that a Perfect Being that you wish to curry favor with, that you sincerely believe in, Love and Fear, and claim to do anything for to avoid Hell wrote to you, but you are only reading what someone else's opinion is of what God wrote.

 I simply find this aspect of Xpian blind acceptance mind-boggling.  You are admitting that you will follow what other people say. You are accepting the authority of people to translate God's very Word to you because they claim they have it right.

 You have Faith in yourself to accurately choose who to have Faith in to translate God's Word so you can have Faith in God and save yourself from your sinful (imperfect) nature.

 BTW, your church is not the church Jesus Christ founded, it just claims to be (as do all the others).  I would also add that your Bible is not the real Bible, but if any comes close it is Marcion's.  Marcion's Canon is the only true Bible.

My capacity for languaes is limited, therefore I have chosen to study those languages I need to function on a daily basis, English because it seems to be the language most people speak in the society in which I live; German because that's the language some of the older folks around the house spoke when I was a kid; Spanish because I function often in a biblingual environment at work.  I have to rely on the ability of others to understand the languages in which Scripture was written, much like I must rely on scientists to translatethe data of their experiments for me.

Quote:
So, I would accept that you know what you're talking about if you knew the original language of the Bible, but now your entire argument is the Fallacy of the Argument from Authority: Your authority for picking which authorities to listen to, and then citing a group of Authorities as if they have greater authority than other people who follow Xpianity.

Much of what we claim to "know", we have no proper title to.  This knowledge is conveyed to us through "authorities" in whom we put our trust.  We call these authorities "teachers".

Allow me tp provide an example.  I am not a scientist, in fact, I am not particularly well versed in science at all, but I do find science fascinating.  In a couole of months they're gonna fire up CERN's Large Hadron super collider and smash some stuff into some other stuff really fast.  Something really cool is gonna happen and some other stuff is gonna show up which will teach us something about the origins of the universe.  I'm not gonna be there to see it happen, so I'm gonna have to rely on the word of the scientists who are there to tell me waht happened.  In fact, even if I was there, I'd need someone to tell me waht happened, because the only thing I'd be able to say is, "Hey, look, that needle just jumped", or "Look at the pretty colors", or "Oh shit, that;s what a black hole looks li.....aaaarrghhhhhh!!!!!!!!!.........."

Now, my point is this.  I've never see a photon, but scientists tell me they exist, and I accept that.  I didn't see the Big Bang happen, but scientists tell me that it is probably how the universe originated, and I accept that.  Likewise Homer wrote some books, Julius Caesar defeated vercingetorix at Alesia, Don Juan smashed the Turkish fleet at Lepanto, the Wright brothers flew an airplane at Kitty Hawk, Hitler invaded Poland.  All these things I have no proper knowledge of, but I accept on the authority of others.  We are all victims of "authority".  No one, not a single person, possesses proper knowledge of everything he "knows".

Quote:
Doesn't this seem odd to you? That you never really cared to know what God was trying to say to you except for listening to the opinion of others?  Is that really what Christ expected when he asked people to give up everything to follow him? To drop what they were doing, leave their families and rid themselves of their possessions?

But I wasn't called to the ministry as Jesus called this young man.  I was called to other responsibilities in life.  More on that in the next section.

Quote:
It seems to me, that you have your own prosperity gospel, you just don't see it as such.  50% of the world lives on less than a dollar a day, but you are fine because you have a good job, make a good living and tithe 10%?

I dunno where you got your informaion on just how wealthy I am, it certainly is not proper knowledge, not can it be knowledge gained through an intermediate authority.  My call in life has been to raise a family of six, and two chidren by another woman.  I'm a single parent.  Needless to say, we don't have much, but manage to keep body and soul together.  We are certainly not wealthy.  My responsibilty has not been to follow Jesus into His ministry but toprovide for my children.  I do what I can for those who don't have.  Most of that is in the form of labor, which I also encourage my children to do (with varying degreees of success).

Quote:
Ah, yes, the great "out" for Xpians: "I'm a sinner and imperfect! I can't possibly be expected to follow anything God said - but I believe He REALLY exists and has a hand in my life, etc..."

 How much have you tried to get rid of your possessions?  For a few dollars you can put an add in the paper.  Even call your local church and donate it.  What other suggestions/commands did God make to you that you reject?

After all, your God said it, not me.  I'd encourage you to keep your stuff, but then, I reject the Holy Spirit, Jesus and God, so you may want to listen to Jesus, since you believe so strongly in Him, rather than me, a Hell-bound atheist.

The thing that gets me about this is that we both believe in gravity, but I don't casually walk off tall buildings expecting to get a pass from the Law of Gravity.  I REALLY believe in gravity.

You, and other xpians, claim to REALLY believe in Jesus/God, yet you often expect to get a pass from His Laws.  Why?  Because you claim that you have Faith in Jesus. That you believe so strongly in the reality and redemption of Jesus.

 But you couldn't be bothered to read what he said in his own words, or even try to follow what translations you do have. You just follow what other people say and give them money for saying it. You are trying to buy your way into heaven: give to your local church and have them tell you you are doing fine.

If we were all capable of achieving perfection on our own, there'd be no need for a Church.  The Church was founded by Christ for the salvation of sinners, hence it is composed of (surprise!) sinners.  I strive to live the Gospel with varying degrees of success at various times.

See, here's the rub.  It's easy to achive perfection when the only standard we hold ourselves to is a subjective standard.  Hence, you have the ability to look at me and berate me for my failure to achieve the objectuve standard I believe is imposed on us. 

Now, I never said that you were "hell-bound".  Nor would I.  I don't know you, and it is, to borrow a quote from Barack Obama "above my pay grade".  Based on the empirical evidence for the existence of a deity, you could well be right, we could be on our own, but the evidence for that is pretty flimsy.  In any event, the silliness of the idea that what's right for me is right for me as long as I don't infringe on the rights of others is a crock.

I hope I addressed all of your concerns.  You were kinda all over the place with this one.  It might be easier to focus one one issue rather than shotgunning it, but do carry on.

 

 

TT, you don't do well being facetious but I'll play along.

1.The Scriptures and the science books were written by men. The science books were written after many observable, repeatable experiments gave consistent results. The Scriptures lack that. Are you holdng out on observable, repeatable miracles?

2. Translate the words of Scripture or interpret the meanings? Two different things. There have been many cases of an interpretation being opposite of what the Scripture said but the interpretation made people feel better. Later, that interpretation became canon.

3. Hasn't that objective standard you speak of gone through several changes (often with the Installation of new Popes)?

4. So is what's right for you only right for you if you do infringe on the rights of others? Sounds like you'd be a fine candidate for McCain's cabinet. (Only partially facetious here Smiling )

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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totus_tuus wrote:I'm not

totus_tuus wrote:

I'm not seeing how you got this:

Brian37 wrote:
Translation, " I hate Catholics"

from this:

DeLgAdO wrote:
and i am a christ-ian not a cross-tian, stop using the x.

Could you explain?  Thanks.

Read the rest of the post before you JUMP to conclusions.

I am saying that non-Catholics often criticise Catholics but don't realize how that comes accross.

Read what I followed that up with.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Quote:If we were all capable

Quote:
If we were all capable of achieving perfection on our own, there'd be no need for a Church.

What a utopian peice of garbage. Do you work for Halmark?

There  is no such thing as "perfection" there are people of ALL religions who think that is possible. There is a difference between improvement and reaching absolute zero either way. If you knew anything about law of probability , and by virtue  of this claim, demonstrates that you are clueless.

You could have tons of information about Buddism and Hinduism and Islam. You could read every book written by Rick Warren and Richard Dawkins and you will still die. If life were perfect, no one would die.

Perfection is a word describing a perception not a reality. Reality be will never be perfect.

Did it ever occure to you that there is no need for Churches? I still get presents at Christmas but don't believe in Santa. Lighting still strikes and most on this planet don't believe in Thor. The sun still rises dispite that the Ancient Egyptians prayed to the sun god for over 3 thousand years.

Churches are a social luxury not a human nesesity anymore than a mosque or Synogouge. Humans need food , shelter and companionship, not myth.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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totus_tuus wrote:My capacity

totus_tuus wrote:

My capacity for languaes is limited, therefore I have chosen to study those languages I need to function on a daily basis, English because it seems to be the language most people speak in the society in which I live; German because that's the language some of the older folks around the house spoke when I was a kid; Spanish because I function often in a biblingual environment at work.  I have to rely on the ability of others to understand the languages in which Scripture was written, much like I must rely on scientists to translatethe data of their experiments for me.

Science is a process. You believe it because there is no big deal for you to know the atomic mass, eg, is one thing or another.  There is little reason to be skeptical.

However, the point I am making is that you believe that scientists know what they are generally talking about and take it as a general trust - but if they are wrong - its no big deal to you.

 

However, you claim that God Almighty came a spoke to you through Jesus. This is a vastly different belief - especially because you believe it so strongly (I assume, since you readily claim it). Yet, you haven't given yourself over to the service of god even though you believe that god is much more important than any science discovery. (Or, do you feel god is less important than an important scientific discovery?)

Quote:

Much of what we claim to "know", we have no proper title to.  This knowledge is conveyed to us through "authorities" in whom we put our trust.  We call these authorities "teachers".

Indeed. And who has proper authority on the supernatural? How do you test to see if Paul was right, Pope X or III, or David Koresh?

 

You determine it based on your own opinion: your own authority.

Quote:
Allow me tp provide an example.  I am not a scientist, in fact, I am not particularly well versed in science at all, but I do find science fascinating.  In a couole of months they're gonna fire up CERN's Large Hadron super collider and smash some stuff into some other stuff really fast.  Something really cool is gonna happen and some other stuff is gonna show up which will teach us something about the origins of the universe.  I'm not gonna be there to see it happen, so I'm gonna have to rely on the word of the scientists who are there to tell me waht happened.  In fact, even if I was there, I'd need someone to tell me waht happened, because the only thing I'd be able to say is, "Hey, look, that needle just jumped", or "Look at the pretty colors", or "Oh shit, that;s what a black hole looks li.....aaaarrghhhhhh!!!!!!!!!.........."

Now, my point is this.  I've never see a photon, but scientists tell me they exist, and I accept that.  I didn't see the Big Bang happen, but scientists tell me that it is probably how the universe originated, and I accept that.  Likewise Homer wrote some books, Julius Caesar defeated vercingetorix at Alesia, Don Juan smashed the Turkish fleet at Lepanto, the Wright brothers flew an airplane at Kitty Hawk, Hitler invaded Poland.  All these things I have no proper knowledge of, but I accept on the authority of others.  We are all victims of "authority".  No one, not a single person, possesses proper knowledge of everything he "knows".

So why do you believe in god again?

Quote:
I dunno where you got your informaion on just how wealthy I am, it certainly is not proper knowledge, not can it be knowledge gained through an intermediate authority.  My call in life has been to raise a family of six, and two chidren by another woman.  I'm a single parent.  Needless to say, we don't have much, but manage to keep body and soul together.  We are certainly not wealthy.  My responsibilty has not been to follow Jesus into His ministry but toprovide for my children.  I do what I can for those who don't have.  Most of that is in the form of labor, which I also encourage my children to do (with varying degreees of success).
As I said, 50% of the world lives on less than a dollar a day.  If you make $2 a day, you are twice as wealthy than a majority of the planet.

DIdn't Jesus say you would be blessed if you follow his advice/suggestions/commands?

Do you believe in Jesus or not?  Don't you trust his words?

Quote:

If we were all capable of achieving perfection on our own, there'd be no need for a Church.  The Church was founded by Christ for the salvation of sinners, hence it is composed of (surprise!) sinners.  I strive to live the Gospel with varying degrees of success at various times.

See, here's the rub.  It's easy to achive perfection when the only standard we hold ourselves to is a subjective standard.  Hence, you have the ability to look at me and berate me for my failure to achieve the objectuve standard I believe is imposed on us.

It's not hard to read the Bible and do what it says if you value the opinion of the writer.

 

You act as if sinning is just something you do, can't help and have little reason to stop without even trying.  By your logic a murderer can just keep killing, shrug and say "meh, that's what the church is for."

Quote:
Now, I never said that you were "hell-bound".  Nor would I.  I don't know you, and it is, to borrow a quote from Barack Obama "above my pay grade".  Based on the empirical evidence for the existence of a deity, you could well be right, we could be on our own, but the evidence for that is pretty flimsy.  In any event, the silliness of the idea that what's right for me is right for me as long as I don't infringe on the rights of others is a crock.
So, you have no interest in offering reasons to people for why you believe and others could have a reason to believe? I think I mentioned how Xpianity is only a self-serving religion: "Save myself and don't worry about anyone else - except, feed a few of them so you look good."

BTW, IF Xpianity is true, I am going to Hell as are many people you know, even many of the people you think are good Xpians.  I am sure though, that once you make it to Heaven you will not worry about that and praise your God - and yourself for being clever to pick the right religion.

Quote:
I hope I addressed all of your concerns.  You were kinda all over the place with this one.  It might be easier to focus one one issue rather than shotgunning it, but do carry on.
Yes, you were more prolific this time. Thank you.  However, I now wonder how much of a Xpian you are, since you don't seem to be arguing very strongly for it (As Paul said you should, btw....)

 

Anyhow, my central point is that science is a man-made process in which we learn little things about our universe. It's such a minor thing if you are xpian

Did Jesus ever say one thing about science? Did he mention that scholarly pursuits were valuable at all?  No.

 

In fact, he said what good is all this lernin' if you don't learn about God (paraphrasing).  One could be totally ignorant of science to the point of poisoning yourself or killing yourself because of that ignorance - but it won't matter if you are a good xpian.

Moreover, you claim to believe in god and Jesus (but for some reason won't talk about other central figures of the supernatural world: Satan and angels, which is odd since it says in the Bible that Jesus even met Satan: was it a lie?), but you don't make it the most important thing in your life.  It's as i you are hedging your bet that god doesn't exist and you are going to try to live as if this is the only life, as opposed to what Jesus said.

 

BTW, I admire that you are a single parent and keeping it together. I'm not sure why you had to have so many kids, or why you take time typing on an atheist forum when you could be applying your energy to something more important.  Excuse my brusqueness.

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov