Physical evidence that can't be denied, Noahs Ark [YOU RESPOND]

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Physical evidence that can't be denied, Noahs Ark [YOU RESPOND]

From: ploehn1@comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 3:07 AM
Subject: [Defend my God!] Archaeological  evidence

Scott sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

I believe in the scriptures. I am not writing to "save" or change you, (and
you can not change my fundamental beliefs, although I am still open to
discussion), but to share some interesting information/history.
I do not follow "mainstream" Christianity, especially the pope
(antichrist). Most of them are ignorantly lost (few there be that find
it), and as is often repeated on this website, "they don't even read their
own book". I agree.
I m not a member of any organized religion, or denomination, as my
relationship is "one on one". I need no intermediary such as a priest in
the middle.
I have read the book, and that is why I don't do pagan holidays (xmas,
easter, etc...). I try and follow the feasts of the Tanach, as they are
meant to be as prophecies of His first and Second coming (but that is
another discussion, although you can find more on this topic at
http://michaelroodministries.com/  Check out his work on the biblical
hebrew calendar)
Enough about me. I just wanted to give a little background to
differentiate myself from the mainstream, as I disagree with them as much
as you do.
A short note on physical evidence of some of the events in scripture.
A man named Ron Wyatt was led to discover many things that provide
physical proof for many events in scripture.
He has found and photographed chariot parts/wheels under the Red Sea,
along with horse and human bones. There is a column erected at both sides
of the crossing site, by King Solomon, I believe, stating in Hebrew, that
this is the crossing site. Ron and his sons spent over 70 days in jail
over there, accused of being spies, until he was able to convince some
Saudi "Prince" to visit the site, where the prince saw one of the columns.
Then they believed him, and let them go.
He has found and scientifically documented Noah's Ark.
A few other finds also.
His (he is dead now) site is
http://www.wyattmuseum.com/
There are other sites both supporting and debunking his finds. You may not
believe in a creator, or the scriptures, but it is hard to dispute physical
evidence, although as I have stated, many do. My personal research and
spiritual awareness tells me that Ron and his work are the real thing.
I find the scriptures are interesting as a book of history as well as a
book of prophecy on the past and the future. These discoveries by Ron , in
my belief, are physical evidence supporting the historical validity of
these writings.
I find you all to be intelligent writers on this site, despite our
philosophical differences, and I think you will find these sites
interesting, as I did.
Thank you for listening.
Scott

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


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Even Christian sites like

Even Christian sites like Answers in Genesis find Wyatt to have been a fraud. They did a writeup on Wyatt's "Ark" here.


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Actually there is a lack of

Actually there is a lack of historical evidence for most items mentioned in the bible.  As to Ron Wyatt, he doesn't know what he is talking about.  Here is link you might find interesting: http://www.isitso.org/guide/wyatt.html

 

 


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Not only are events such as

Not only are events such as Noah's Ark flat out impossible, they are, you will find if you look for credible non biased sources, NOT EVEN ORIGINAL. The story of Noah's Ark is a pieced together retelling of the story of Gilgamesh with some Egyptian mythology thrown in. You will find very significant pieces of many of the stories in the bible in older religious works. Much of Jesus' life was plagurized from other "saviors" all gods based around the "sun" (there's a reason for that, look it up)

The more you know about the world around you, the less you have to make up.


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You don't celebrate

You don't celebrate Christmas, because you read the Bible? Haha, how absurd.

Well, kudos for having the strength of your convictions, I guess.

But goodness, how dreadfully dreary and absurd.

Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin


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IntellectualTitan wrote:Not

IntellectualTitan wrote:

Not only are events such as Noah's Ark flat out impossible....

Impossible? What're you talking about?

Are you saying that the grand canyon wasn't carved by The Flood? Are you saying that there's no way Noah could've gotten two of every species on the boat, along with enough food, and a big room for poo? Are you insinuating there isn't enough water to flood the earth?!?

I'll have you know, if the earth were perfectly spherical (no mountains or valleys, but not adjusting for equatorial bulge), the ground would be something like ten feet under water! (I just made that up.) So, all that's required for the flood story to be true is, God made the earth perfectly spherical. And the draught of the ark was exceptionally shallow, especially considering all the poo.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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Earth: Average Land

 Earth imfo: Average Land elevation above sea level is 1/2 mile, while its Ocean averages 2-1/2 miles deep (7mi. in deepest trenches) If Earth was a smooth Ball it would be completely covered by 6000 feet of ocean  (1 mi. is 5280 ft.) If then all the water was evaporated, you'd have 200 ft of Salt covering the entire Earth !  

 

 


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The burden of proof

While your sources are suspect, it would be foolish to get drawn into this matter of "proofs" in scripture.

It is possible, in fact, undeniable, that many of the events recorded in various religious records did occur in some form.

Atheists are not trying specifically to refute the verity of such recorded events. That is not relevant to the central belief in a deity or supernatural involvement in such events. There are non-believers active in the research of "biblical history" as well;  after all, these are some of the oldest records of human history, even if it is coloured by superstitious or religious understandings.

The burden of proof is on the believer. If there was an ark, in any form, does that prove God? If the Red Sea was once a muddy death trap, does that prove God? Because the walls of Jericho are no more, must it have been God that defeated them?

You know the answer. Scholars studying such events have remarkably found natural explanations. Your God "works in mysterious ways," which is to say that not a thing you would pose as proof will help your case, because there is no proof. A circular argument only borne up by "faith."

I know that faith is the basis of your religion; of all religions (even those without historical books of laws and parables). But do you?


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I am most certainly trying

I am most certainly trying to refute the non-sense that a global flood is. I can't believe that anyone can believe the silly stories of the OT in particuliar. I am not saying that the NT is any more valid, but the thought of god getting pissed off because man was trying to build a tower to heaven or got enraged and drowned its' creation is just hilarious. With that being said, I used to believe it one a long time ago. I just wish I had thought more critically about my beliefs instead of being allowed to be brainwashed to believe such non-sense. I honestly feel sorry for most christians because I know personally how easy it is to get drawn into the mess.

 

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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Cali_Athiest2 wrote:I am

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:

I am most certainly trying to refute the non-sense that a global flood is. I can't believe that anyone can believe the silly stories of the OT in particuliar.

 

We would be left without much pre-Roman history if we disregarded everything that was presented through a superstitious/religious interpretation. The flood myth is widespread among different cultures, suggesting that there is some basis for it. Some scholars believe that it may refer to rapidly rising sea levels following the last ice age; William Ryan and Walter Pitman's theory about massive flooding into the Black Sea is very credible (keeping in mind that our understanding of the breadth of the "world," even in much more recent times, was flawed).

Of course, if you accept such explanations it still blows the supernatural suppositions out of the water.

Denying the stories out of hand only sets us up for a meal of crow if any evidence turns up, and to what purpose? Just to call people liars who have been dead for thousands of years? It would be amazing to discover that such nearly prehistoric peoples were capable of constructing a ship of Ark scale, but it would not prove anything supernatural. Rather, it would be a testament to the longstanding ingenuity of our species.


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"Flood Stories from Around

"Flood Stories from Around the World"

    Silly humans , silly gods , poor frightened creatures ....

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

    

               

 


pauljohntheskeptic
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If Noah took 2 of every

If Noah took 2 of every species on the ark and parked in a boat slip atop Mt Ararat where they all disembarked explain why there are no kangaroos in Africa, no Diamondback rattlers in Egypt, no llamas in Europe, no panda bears in Brazil, and no elephants in North America. Did they all have directions to go to specific places? None of the wombats or the Tasmanian Devils wanted to hang out in Asia or India on the way to Australia?

As to the reality of a world wide flood there is not enough water on this planet to cover all the dry land to the highest peak. Do the math. The best I can come up with is to look to the Gilgamesh story and Sumerian legends which speak of 6 days and nights of rain and a huge surge of water driven by the south wind. Sumer was located in ancient Iraq. As someone who lived in Florida I know exactly what that sounds like. If a very large hurricane such as a category 5 went into the Persian Gulf the effect would be magnified as it hit Iraq or ancient Mesopotamia. The surge would have been high enough to wash away much of their known world at the time. Since they had no Weather Channel to warn them they'd of course think it was their gods trying to destroy them.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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pauljohntheskeptic

Was that a response to my post or to the original e-mail?

As the latter, I don't disagree. But as the former, it completely disregards the content of my post.


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Robert Satori

Robert Satori wrote:

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:

I am most certainly trying to refute the non-sense that a global flood is. I can't believe that anyone can believe the silly stories of the OT in particuliar.

 

We would be left without much pre-Roman history if we disregarded everything that was presented through a superstitious/religious interpretation. The flood myth is widespread among different cultures, suggesting that there is some basis for it. Some scholars believe that it may refer to rapidly rising sea levels following the last ice age; William Ryan and Walter Pitman's theory about massive flooding into the Black Sea is very credible (keeping in mind that our understanding of the breadth of the "world," even in much more recent times, was flawed).

Of course, if you accept such explanations it still blows the supernatural suppositions out of the water.

Denying the stories out of hand only sets us up for a meal of crow if any evidence turns up, and to what purpose? Just to call people liars who have been dead for thousands of years? It would be amazing to discover that such nearly prehistoric peoples were capable of constructing a ship of Ark scale, but it would not prove anything supernatural. Rather, it would be a testament to the longstanding ingenuity of our species.

I have to digress here a little. It was believed for centuries that the amazon women myth was just that, a myth. However, recent discoveries of a tomb in western russia have traced a possible source back to the women warriors and every so often a child is born in Siberia with these genetic markers matching the remains in the tomb found in west russia. Using "history" from Horoditus I believe it was, they found mention of a group of women warriors that were captured in battle and sent by boat by the captives. It's possible according to the documentary that the boat sunk somewhere in the Black Sea and stranded the women miles from home. The remaining survivors may have remained in eastern Europe and married into the local populace. It was a fascinating documentary on PBS on "Secrets of the Dead" I believe.

Perhaps it sounded like my mind was closed to the idea, but until evidence begins to support that a global flood occured 4,200 years ago the burden of proof is not on the atheist. I used the 4,200 years as a reference to what most YECs believe. If there actually was a global scale flood it might have occured millions of years ago for all we know. The same goes for the Exodus. If one source claims that a group of Hebrews left Egypt and yet there is no corroborating evidence to support the claim, then as a skeptic I still place burden of proof on the bible.

Back to my point, lack of belief in amazon warriors due to the lack of evidence is hardly a problem for a skeptic. I hold the view now that they may have indeed existed because scholars have been able to piece together convincing evidence and this is what I expect of any legitimate claim. You see I don't dismiss ideas without merit, I just dismiss ideas that haven't been proven to contain any merit.

I guess my point with this assertion is that you are correct that dimissing an idea just to dismiss it is irrational. We may never really know an exact history of the Earth. I agree, the wide spread myth is somewhat of a conundrum. I know that you do not believe in a god caused global flood but there may still be some valid explaination for the breadth of stories from varying culture claiming a gloabl flood. I find that contamination of cultures is probably one of the biggest culprits, but it would be interesting for someone to do a textual criticism of some type to find out how these myths spread across various cultures.

The search for truth doesn't end when someone claims to be 100% sure something is true. I merely stated that unless someone has some very tangible evidence then stop stating it to be a fact. I will do my best to fight claims that a global flood or the exodus happened because I do not believe religion should be a taboo subject undeserving of critique. Also, I do not hold any views that I am unwilling to eat a little crow over. I have changed my mind on many occasions when presented with proof and am sure I will many times in the future.

A side note on your comment. I believe that there is a whole history of our species that we do not yet know. Science is still such a new aspect of our world and promises to open many new windows to look at our past. It is just now starting to get accepted that the first Americans may have sailed here instead of all coming over the Bering Straits. The proof has yet to be found, but if this is true it is clearly a triumph of our species.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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Cali_Athiest2 wrote:If there

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:

If there actually was a global scale flood it might have occured millions of years ago for all we know.

I'm generally doubtful that we'll find any human record dating that far back. By all estimates, we were still monkey-men until (relatively) recently.

My point in all this is that Atheism does not rest on proving or disproving, believing or disbelieving, any event recorded in any religious document. Even if evidence were found to support the events almost exactly as described, the supernatural element would not be proven. Disbelieving the supernatural, God in particular, is what makes one an Atheist.

You can also be a bible-denier and still harbor a belief in other supernatural forces.


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Lots of big floods, lots of

Lots of big floods, lots of big stories ....   and of course gawed done it ....


pauljohntheskeptic
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Robert Satori wrote:Was that

Robert Satori wrote:

Was that a response to my post or to the original e-mail?

As the latter, I don't disagree. But as the former, it completely disregards the content of my post.

It was in response to the OP, not your comments. I agree with you as well.

Robert Satori wrote:

We would be left without much pre-Roman history if we disregarded everything that was presented through a superstitious/religious interpretation. The flood myth is widespread among different cultures, suggesting that there is some basis for it. Some scholars believe that it may refer to rapidly rising sea levels following the last ice age; William Ryan and Walter Pitman's theory about massive flooding into the Black Sea is very credible (keeping in mind that our understanding of the breadth of the "world," even in much more recent times, was flawed).

Ancient history of other cultures has just as much religious superstition as the Israelites. Egypt and Sumer both extensively intermix their beliefs in gods with history.  The world wide flood  however is extremely improbable. Perhaps Ice Age melting coupled with extreme weather events account for the stories. As the world warmed up volatile changes would occur in weather patterns resulting in extreme conditions such as cyclones or hurricanes slamming areas that had never been affected during the time of those civilizations. Melting ice also evaporates and could have resulted in major storms and flooding. There are many possibilities. Except for one, there is not enough water on this planet to cover all the land. There is no scientific evidence such a thing ever happened.

 

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.