God is perfect in Love, so He gives us free will. [YOU RESPOND]

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God is perfect in Love, so He gives us free will. [YOU RESPOND]

From: chevaunt@hotmail.com
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:51 PM
Subject: [General Question] Why So much suffering and evil? Here's why.

 

Logical Dude sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

When we say we "love" someone, we give them a choice to love us back. God
is perfect in Love, so He gives us free will. His will is for us to choose
him. But his Perfect Love makes it possible for us to disobey him. So God
can't stop being himself because He's perfect. The first disobedient act
in the Garden led to a chain reaction called "the curse of sin". Everybody
now has their own ideas of what is right and wrong because they don't
consult God. Evil is the absence of "godliness" just like cold is the
absence of heat. Dark is the absence of light. God hates it when we hate
each other. God hates our hateful actions towards people and Him. The
first 4 commandments of the 10 instructs us how to treat God. Then
commandments 5 - 10 instructs us how to treat people. The Manual helps us
to realize our purpose just like a manual for any given invention. Don't
give up on your purpose.

 

ALSO....

 

Logical Dude sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

The purpose of a microwave is to make things warmer. The purpose of a
television set is to display images for us to see. Please then tell me
what is our purpose? Do we have any purpose of existence? I'm sorry that
people are threatening you guys. The reason whey there are so many
religions in our world today is because people want to know their purpose.
What's the point of living? Worship means - showing something worth.
Worth-ship. We all show something worth. I believe we were designed for
that very reason; to esteem our designer by loving each other. People
crave this thing called love. Christ did the biggest act of love; dying
for us. No other god has ever shown that degree of love. What's your
purpose?

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free will + #1,2, & 10

 

    I always wonder why theists brag about their god giving us free will, then get so pissed off when we use that free will not to believe.  Hypocracy in action.

   I have never heard a rational explanation for commandments 1 , 2  and 10,  from any theist and it is the basis of their religion after all.

    # 1(   "Have no other god before me"    What other gods does it fear?

     #2(   ""....I am a jelious god...."  this is a direct violation of  #10(  "...do not covet..".  Your religion teaches hypocracy from the get-go. Sheesh!!

 

    

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Evil is not the absence of

Evil is not the absence of godliness.  Evil is people doing bad things to each other.  Having moral direction does not require believing in a deity.  In fact, believing in a deity is often an obstuction to moral behavior as a person is no longer required to determine what is nice.  Religion teaches that as long as you follow this set of rules set down by some one else you are doing good.  Relieved of personal responsibility you are then free to oppress in the name of god. 


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How is God giving you Free

How is God giving you Free Will if when we do not choose him you die in the end. Isn't his loved returned with everlasting life?

It reminds me of Shogun Assassin when the father tells the son to choose and if he chooses wrong he will join his mother in death.

To think you have a choice is ignorance. To think god is love is ignorant. To think god exists is just plain dumb. Quote me on that.

We're All Monkeys


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Screaming Monkey wrote:To

Screaming Monkey wrote:

To think god exists is just plain dumb.

 

- Brian Sapient


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Jeffrick wrote:     I

Jeffrick wrote:

 

    I always wonder why theists brag about their god giving us free will, then get so pissed off when we use that free will not to believe.  Hypocracy in action.

   I have never heard a rational explanation for commandments 1 , 2  and 10,  from any theist and it is the basis of their religion after all.

    # 1(   "Have no other god before me"    What other gods does it fear?

     #2(   ""....I am a jelious god...."  this is a direct violation of  #10(  "...do not covet..".  Your religion teaches hypocracy from the get-go. Sheesh!!

 

    

It is just god showing off its' imperfection. Jealousy is a human weakness therfore god cannot be perfect. Am I wrong?

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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Screaming Monkey wrote:How

Screaming Monkey wrote:

How is God giving you Free Will if when we do not choose him you die in the end. Isn't his loved returned with everlasting life?

It reminds me of Shogun Assassin when the father tells the son to choose and if he chooses wrong he will join his mother in death.

To think you have a choice is ignorance. To think god is love is ignorant. To think god exists is just plain dumb. Quote me on that.

The freewill argument has always perplexed me too. I just view freewill as a choice that has two seperate outcomes. You are free to choose one and have everlasting life or free to choose death or eternal punishment whichever you prescribe to. My little spin is that if god exists and has perfect knowledge then it would know what would help us change our minds. I think of it like the scene in The Matrix: Reloaded when the oracle offers Neo the candy. He was going to take it because she wouldn't have offered it to him as she had perfect knowledge. She saw a need and filled it simple as that. If anybody has read many of my rantings they might remember this example because I use it a lot. God could offer up some shred of evidence to dis-spell our disbelief without violating the supposed freewill, but I have seen no reason to believe it does. God inthe bible violates freewill all the time. Hardening pharoah's heart, allowing demons to possess man are such examples. For all we know god hardens atheists' hearts..... who knows.

I will quote you on your last statement. "To think that god is love is ignorant" and "To think god exists is just dumb". Sums up what I believe pretty well.... thanks.  

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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response

An all powerful god that gives man freewill ...while being completely aware (all knowing) that man is going to do BAD things, is the most disgusting IDEA I have ever fathomed.  Please spare the torture and pain that so many have endured and just entertain your lonesome ass with a blow up doll instead.


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I dont think there is much

I dont think there is much to discuss considering the fact that free will is a myth.

"Our decisions are predetermined unconsciously a long time before our consciousness kicks in," says John-Dylan Haynes, a neuroscientist at the Bernstein Center for Computational Neuroscience in Berlin, who led the study. It definitely throws our concept of free will into doubt, he adds.

This is by no means the first time scientists have cast doubt on conscious free will. In the early 1980s, the late neuroscientist Benjamin Libet uncovered a spark of brain activity three tenths of a second before subjects opted to lift a finger. The activity flickered in a region of the brain involved in planning body movement.

But this region might perform only the final mental calculations to move, not the initial decision to lift a finger, Haynes says."

The idea of determinism is that all events are the results of previous causes. If we heated a bar of iron, and the bar expanded, we would say that the heat was the cause of expansion.

The idea of a physically determined universe is associated with Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727). This is sometimes called the billiard ball view of nature: A billiard ball will only move when acted on by another force such as another billiard ball hitting it. If we could measure the exact velocity and angle of the first billiard ball, we could predict the movement of the second.

The philosophical problem comes with human beings. If we were to accept the empirical view that human beings are organized systems of matter and that our minds are formed as a result of experiences then we may want to explain human behavior in terms of cause and effect.

If we knew enough about the biological make up of an individual, his early childhood experiences and the social and historical circumstances he was born into, then perhaps we could predict all of his actions. From this point of view the idea of free will (the ability to choose) is simply the result of or ignorance of all of the causal factors.
 

I am a hard determinist. So obviously i do not believe in free will. The so-called "free choices" were already predetermined. Some people say quantum mechanics suggest free will...not really, free will is a conscious choice/action, randomness isnt.

 

Maybe im wrong though...dont expect too much from a teenager.  

A witty saying proves nothing. -- Voltaire(1694-1778)


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God given "free will" is in

God given "free will" is in direct contradiction to the notion of a god having an ultimate "plan" or to put it another way in the notion of people having some sort of "god given destiny".

So, I ask the theist, which is it --"free will" or "god's plan"?

Simple as that.


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Anonymous wrote:God given

Anonymous wrote:

God given "free will" is in direct contradiction to the notion of a god having an ultimate "plan" or to put it another way in the notion of people having some sort of "god given destiny".

So, I ask the theist, which is it --"free will" or "god's plan"?

Simple as that.

Unfortunately, what that question gets you is, "Both - Free will is part of God's plan"

Ludicrous, but that's what you'll get.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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I've never understood why a

I've never understood why a loving father would leave his two virtually brand new inexperienced creations unsupervised in a garden with access to something that could cause "the curse of sin" when his allknowingness must surely have informed him that there was a snake in the vicinity and then he returns and instead of taking responsibility he blames the children. A pathetic father indeed, if you ask me (not that I believe this story).

Clearly they wouldn't have understood the ramifications of their disobedience or they wouldn't have done. It would have been insane.

So, either they (Adam/Eve) understood the ramifications and god created insanely stupid creatures or god himself was insane to leave them in a situation where this could happen.

Either way, god is both irresponsible and insane. That's my take on it.


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nikimoto wrote:I've never

nikimoto wrote:

I've never understood why a loving father would leave his two virtually brand new inexperienced creations unsupervised in a garden with access to something that could cause "the curse of sin" when his allknowingness must surely have informed him that there was a snake in the vicinity and then he returns and instead of taking responsibility he blames the children. A pathetic father indeed, if you ask me (not that I believe this story).

Clearly they wouldn't have understood the ramifications of their disobedience or they wouldn't have done. It would have been insane.

So, either they (Adam/Eve) understood the ramifications and god created insanely stupid creatures or god himself was insane to leave them in a situation where this could happen.

Either way, god is both irresponsible and insane. That's my take on it.

"It's all part of the plan" Joker from The Dark Knight or god?

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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RationalResponseSquad

RationalResponseSquad wrote:

From: chevaunt@hotmail.com
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:51 PM
Subject: [General Question] Why So much suffering and evil? Here's why.

 

Logical Dude sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

When we say we "love" someone, we give them a choice to love us back. God
is perfect in Love, so He gives us free will. His will is for us to choose
him. But his Perfect Love makes it possible for us to disobey him. So God
can't stop being himself because He's perfect. The first disobedient act
in the Garden led to a chain reaction called "the curse of sin". Everybody
now has their own ideas of what is right and wrong because they don't
consult God. Evil is the absence of "godliness" just like cold is the
absence of heat. Dark is the absence of light. God hates it when we hate
each other. God hates our hateful actions towards people and Him. The
first 4 commandments of the 10 instructs us how to treat God. Then
commandments 5 - 10 instructs us how to treat people. The Manual helps us
to realize our purpose just like a manual for any given invention. Don't
give up on your purpose.

 

ALSO....

 

Logical Dude sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

The purpose of a microwave is to make things warmer. The purpose of a
television set is to display images for us to see. Please then tell me
what is our purpose? Do we have any purpose of existence? I'm sorry that
people are threatening you guys. The reason whey there are so many
religions in our world today is because people want to know their purpose.
What's the point of living? Worship means - showing something worth.
Worth-ship. We all show something worth. I believe we were designed for
that very reason; to esteem our designer by loving each other. People
crave this thing called love. Christ did the biggest act of love; dying
for us. No other god has ever shown that degree of love. What's your
purpose?

Hi "Logical" Dude. It's difficult to argue with your reasoning, as you're interpreting the rhetorical positions of writers lost to obscurity, and for whom "historical rigor" was something that happened when a fellow writer died of an ingrown toenail. I'd forsake the high ground on this level, much in the same way I'm forced to take Jim Davis's word for it that a cat could grow so lustful toward lasagna. Clearly it was someone's mistake in indulging you the "Superman VS Mighty Mouse" soliloquy you've burdened them with in two separate messages.


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fuck yer god.

god is fake...plain and simple.


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fuck yer god.

is god willing but not able? then he is not omnipotent.

is god able but not willing? then he is malevolent.

is god both able and willing? then whence cometh evil?

is he neither able nor willing? then why call him god?

 

                                       -Epicurus


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Free will

 

FREE WILL

 

From my dictionary:

adj. omnipotent all-powerful
adj. omniscient all-knowing

These are adjectives often applied to the Christian god - he is all-powerful, unlimited in his ability, and knows all that can be known. We are often told that God knows all things throughout the entirety of time and space. Everything that can be known, he knows. Everything in the past, present and future is known to God. Fair enough. I wouldn't expect anything less from the Creator of the Universe.

There's just one small problem... Free Will.

Religion teaches that God gave us free will, so that we may make our own decisions, decide our own futures, with no coercion from God. If we do good things or bad things it is entirely down to us, God just sits back and watches over us.
This makes no sense at all.

If God knows all things throughout time (as he must, if he is omniscient), then he knows every action I perform, every decision I make throughout my life, before I have done them. If God knows exactly what I am going to do on 10th July, 2030, then how can I do anything other than that?

God, however, being the Creator, had prior knowledge of your actions at the time of the Creation, billions of years ago. He set the universe in motion, knowing all that would happen throughout time.

Experiment

Try it for yourself. Right now, this minute, exert your free will.
Do something, anything at all, that you don't think God could have possibly known you were going to do.
Can you do it? Can you surprise God?
If you can, then God is not omniscient - he is not all-knowing. And if he is not omniscient, then how can he be omnipotent - unlimited in his ability?
If you cannot, then how can you think you have free will? You cannot do anything other than that which God already knows you are going to do.

As an example:
Does God know what I am going to eat for breakfast tomorrow?
I'll make it easy for Him : it could be either toast, cereal, pancakes or nothing. Four options. Is it possible that God, who is infinitely powerful, in all places at once, having knowledge of all things, who created the space/time universe, who is utterly un-restrained by any physical laws and exists outside the space/time universe, does not know what I'm going to eat for breakfast in the morning?
How ridiculous is that? This omnipotent mega-being cannot accurately look 24 hours into my future? Think about it.

Arguments against

One common counter-argument goes like this:
God knows what you are going to do, yes. But he does not cause you to do it. He simply observes your actions. His prior knowledge does not cause you take that action.

A reasonable argument, but quite flawed. Let's say I use a time-machine to travel forwards in time to next week. I write down all your actions on Thursday in a book, seal the book and travel back again. I present you with the sealed book and tell you not to open it until the end of Thursday. When you read it, you see that I had prior knowledge of all your actions. Did I remove your free will? NO, because I simply observed.

I did not set in motion all the events leading up to your actions, from the creation of the universe. At the moment God created the universe, surely He knew all that would happen throughout its entire history. If so, then He is directly responsible for all our actions - we have no more choice in what we do than a clockwork toy does. If not, then we are part of some huge experiment which God set in motion without the faintest idea of what would happen - he sits back and observes as people die in terrible wars and plagues, ticking off boxes on His clipboard and writing notes like some emotionless scientist.

Another counter-argument, again flawed:
God exists throughout all time, yes, but he does not actually know what action you will perform until you perform it. He knows what choices you might take, but not the precise one itself.

This is quite absurd. It limits God within time. God, who is supposed be unlimited, existing outside of time, surely cannot be restricted by his own creation - time.
It also suggests that God's mind is filled with all the possible actions of all humans (and, presumably, all other life) throughout all of time. There is a portion of the mind of God devoted to whether or not I am going to pick my nose during every nanosecond of time, which possible objects your eyes could focus on at any particular instant, and which possible routes, to the nearest billionth of a millimeter you could travel on your work way to work. There are an infinite number of possible actions that each one of us could perform during our lifetime. God cannot, by definition, know an infinite number of things. (For the same reason that he cannot make a rock to heavy for him to lift, or create a square circle - it's a logical impossibility; meaningless word-play).

This might sound a little pedantic. But try this : lift your hand into the air - then move it slowly in a circle. How many other possible motions can you make with your hand? Obviously, an infinite number (although many will look quite similar). It is impossible for you to make your hand follow that exact path through space again. There are an infinite number of ways you could wiggle a finger or waggle your head. There are an infinite number of values between 0.0 and 1.0 (you could keep dividing a number forever); there are an infinite number of angles within a circle; there are an infinite number of positions to place an apple on a table, or a star in space, or a toothbrush in your mouth. Does God know what all these are? If something is infinite, as are the possible motions of your hand, then it cannot be known completely. Therefore, omniscience itself is a logical impossibility. The idea of an omniscient being can be dismissed, quite literally, with a wave of the hand...

( This could be countered by arguing that God only knows about all the big decisions you might consciously make - he's not concerned with finger-wiggling and hand-waving. But how does he decide in advance what he is going to have knowledge of and what is not important enough to know about? Wiggle your fingers now - did God know you were going to do that or not? Was it below his importance-threshold? The more you think about it, the more ridiculous it all becomes. )

God can know all your actions, but he chooses not to, to ensure that you have free will.
This is also absurd. God denies himself access to his own knowledge?!? The main problem with this argument is that it defines what God is, how he works. How do you know that God does this? To use this argument is to state that you understand God's mind, which is supposed to incomprehensible to mere mortals.
It is a true cop-out - it cannot be disproved and neatly solves the problem. However, it is up to the person using this argument to prove how they know God does this, not just use it because it neatly sorts things out.

 


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Anonymous wrote:God given

Anonymous wrote:

God given "free will" is in direct contradiction to the notion of a god having an ultimate "plan" or to put it another way in the notion of people having some sort of "god given destiny".

So, I ask the theist, which is it --"free will" or "god's plan"?

Simple as that.

That "Anonymous" was me... weird.

jcgadfly wrote:

Unfortunately, what that question gets you is, "Both - Free will is part of God's plan"

Ludicrous, but that's what you'll get.

So their god is able to just ram through contradictions by choosing an option not even available in the given contradiction, "both"(!!!)... truly beyond basic logic and rationality this god concept is!

“It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.” - Voltaire


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I think it was Hitchens who

I think it was Hitchens who said, in regards to our "naughty parts"...."What kind of "design" is it to put an entertainment center in the middle of a sewage system"

The absurdity of a "plan" or "design" is demonstrated in the FACT that cockroaches outnumber humans and have been around longer and will, in all likely hood  outlast our species.

Eagles have better eyesight. Dogs have better smell. We think because our brains are more complex, that as a species we can escape the same extinction everything will at some point. That focus is our, as a species, our worst enemy. Instead of realizing our mortality, we think of superstitious ways to prevent it. Instead, as a species we could be working on a way to extend the ride.

We've long accepted that throwing a human into a volcano won't produce magic. When will people give up on the absurd idea of a magical orgy in the sky with 72 virgins? When will humans give up on magical octopus's  with dots on their foreheads? When will humans give up on the idea that God played a Barry White album and told Mary he was in the mood? When will Tom Cruise lay off the crack pipe and realize that his hero is nothing but a science fiction writer?

If there is anything bleak about the species, it is it's repeated crossing it's fingers thinking rabbit's feet always work.

It wasn't wishful thinking that that dragged humanity out of the caves, it was brave questioning and introspection.

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Abstraction0930 wrote:"Our

Abstraction0930 wrote:
"Our decisions are predetermined unconsciously a long time before our consciousness kicks in," says John-Dylan Haynes, a neuroscientist at the Bernstein Center for Computational Neuroscience in Berlin, who led the study. It definitely throws our concept of free will into doubt, he adds.

Link to this?

 

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Quote:I think it was

Quote:
I think it was Hitchens who said, in regards to our "naughty parts"...."What kind of "design" is it to put an entertainment center in the middle of a sewage system"

I thought it was George Carlin.

Good quote, anyway.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Birth defects aren't caused

Birth defects aren't caused by genetic or environmental problems. They're caused when god desgins those children while drunk. That's why FAS happens to the children of women who drink while pregnant - it's not a dircet cause - God likes to drink with you and if she's getting drunk so's he. The kid wound up like that because God was shitfaced when he designed him. Once the kids born "Oh fuck, how drunk was I when I put him together!"

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response to Christianity from an Atheist

Hello. I shall be brief. I am an Atheist and I am not in total agreement with how many Atheists portray Christianity and it's flaws. That being said, I find many Atheist's comments to be informative and interesting. With regard to your Christian belief, I shall attempt to discredit it fairly.

You claim you were drawn to your Christian faith through feelings of inadequacy - "emptiness" and "sinfulness". In other words, you felt that Christianity was an appropriate response to your perceived failings as a human. Even though Christianity appears to be a solution to your dilemma, such rationalization is completely subjective and cannot be demonstrated to be a valid response to establish a life philosophy.

Going from there, your perception of what Christianity is and should be is likely based upon a standard Bible such as the King James version. If there were no Bible, you would have nothing to base your faith upon. Therefore, your faith rests or falls upon the integrity of the Bible, which can easily be shown to be a conflicting hodgepodge of tribal myths and superstitions. That you would persist in believing that you are a Christian in spite of this either demonstrates a gross ignorance or a willful delusion. As it is, your beliefs are contradictory at this very moment.

For example, you believe that you are saved and going to Heaven. And you believe that Heaven is God's reward to believers, and that it is superior to Earth. That being the case, you should rationally suicide and go to Heaven right now. But why don't you? Because you don't believe and are therefore not a Christian.

This is the essence of my claim. The fact is that you are NOT a Christian, even though you believe yourself to be one, because your philosophy of belief is contrary to the teachings of the Bible.


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So a god gives us free will

So a god gives us free will out of love? A god tells us how to receive glory. He/she/it tells us how to receive eternal life in a heaven. This god also tells us certain rules that must be followed or those things will not occur. This god tells us specific things that if done we will be eternally damned. If a god instructs us to live his/her/its way, how he/she/it desires, when he/she/it desires, or suffer eternal torment, that is not love. It is bondage. Do what I say or else. Get to work and do it right or I will whip you. Sure, we have the free will to disobey. But you cannot connect love and free will. They are mutually exclusive.

Assuming the god of the buy-bull, if we truly had free will and love, denying the existence of the holy spirit would not be unforgivable.


As for the microwave and the television set business...
People invented the microwave out of the desire to have a fast method to heat food. The television was invented for entertainment and profit. People invent tools because the need for them presented itself. We continue to invent things and develop technology for the betterment of our lives. And sometimes for our detriment. If we assume people are created by a god then that god must have a need for them. What omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent god that created all of the universe would have a need for people? Why would such a god need our praise? How could our praise possibly benefit such a god? The very concept contradicts the power of such a god.

Consider this account closed. It's disgraceful this site has no function to delete an account. I cannot be part of an organization that seeks only to replace the religion of the god of the bible with the religion of "poor me" bleeding heart liberalism. Rational my ass! Not believing in a god is one thing. A rational view of the rest of the world is something else, which isn't found here.


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  Circular reasoning based

 

 Circular reasoning based on something called Perfect Love that gives us the free will to choose to believe (or not) does not prove the existence of a supreme being. Neither does invoking the commandments prove the existence of a god. If you’ll look, most of the commandments that don’t pertain to divinity are natural human laws like respect for our elders and abhorrence of crime that exist in almost every culture and religion. Further confusion comes with the comparison of humans and TV’s and microwave ovens. TV’s and microwave ovens are tools made by humans to enhance their lives. That is the basic purpose of these and many other tools and they only evolve by model year and the current technology. They weren’t poofed into existence by a god nor were they put perfectly into place by a tornado. They were built by human hands and by machines that were built by human hands. Love, compassion and respect are a central theme in the purpose my life and I don’t have to believe in a supreme being to do so. There are so many religions in the world not for soul searchers but for soul savers; spreading fear of the pain of Hell and a promise of redemptions and salvation. There is also missionary work. Giving impoverished people assistance while planting seeds in weakened minds. Proselytizing, not searching for purpose, is responsible for the spread of religion.

 


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Response

RationalResponseSquad wrote:

From: chevaunt@hotmail.com
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:51 PM
Subject: [General Question] Why So much suffering and evil? Here's why.

 

Logical Dude sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

When we say we "love" someone, we give them a choice to love us back. God
is perfect in Love, so He gives us free will. His will is for us to choose
him. But his Perfect Love makes it possible for us to disobey him. So God
can't stop being himself because He's perfect. The first disobedient act
in the Garden led to a chain reaction called "the curse of sin". Everybody
now has their own ideas of what is right and wrong because they don't
consult God. Evil is the absence of "godliness" just like cold is the
absence of heat. Dark is the absence of light. God hates it when we hate
each other. God hates our hateful actions towards people and Him. The
first 4 commandments of the 10 instructs us how to treat God. Then
commandments 5 - 10 instructs us how to treat people. The Manual helps us
to realize our purpose just like a manual for any given invention. Don't
give up on your purpose.

 

There are numerous problems with the 'Free will rationalization' for God. Chiefly, free will is incompatible with omniscience(one of God's alleged qualities). If someone KNOWS that he will cause 'X' to occur, 40 billion years before it will happen, then at what point can that being ponder the decision of whether to cause 'X' or not? No matter how far back you try to fudge the decision-making process(the typical Christian response is to try and somehow force the decision to somehow precede the 'knowledge'), he will still be omniscient at that point.

 

Another problem with this chestnut is the idea that if God somehow made himself apparent to our rational devices(senses and brain), it would be akin to robbing us of our free will. If this is so then my own mother robbed me of free will from the time I was born. Gravity removed any chance of me exercising free will after I left the womb. So there is no reason we cannot have free will AND be rationally cognizant of his presence.

 

Quote:
ALSO....

 

Logical Dude sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

The purpose of a microwave is to make things warmer. The purpose of a
television set is to display images for us to see. Please then tell me
what is our purpose?

 

You are playing shell games with words here. The above is like saying "Brett Favre throws footballs into the end zone. My '73 Cuda threw a rod. What are YOU throwing?!". You presuppose that humans have a "purpose" and thus presuppose design/creation/intent behind our existence. If any of us have a "purpose" then that individual purpose is defined by ourselves. And whatever that purpose may be, it is not comparable to the function of a microwave oven or  television set. Those things are artifices.

 

 

Quote:
Do we have any purpose of existence? I'm sorry that
people are threatening you guys. The reason whey there are so many
religions in our world today is because people want to know their purpose.

 

Bald assertion fallacy.

 


Quote:
What's the point of living? Worship means - showing something worth.
Worth-ship. We all show something worth. I believe we were designed for
that very reason; to esteem our designer by loving each other. People
crave this thing called love. Christ did the biggest act of love; dying
for us. No other god has ever shown that degree of love. What's your
purpose?

 

There is so much wrong with that one paragraph that I could write 5,000 words addressing it and still not cover all the problems. My late friend Charles Fiterman used to say: "No being worthy of worship would WANT TO BE worshiped.". The gods exhibit ever madness and vice of humanity. Worship, jealously, contempt, etc....these are all egotistical qualities. Character flaws. Understandable in humans but in an alleged divinity?! Preposterous.


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How do you go from the

How do you go from the statement "God is perfect Love" to "God hates..."?  That's contradiction in less than a paragraph--far more efficient than any Sunday morning televangelist!  This is why free thinkers (aka, atheists--those who disbelieve in deities) have absolved the unnecessary weight of religion in their lives.  When you can take a step back and look at the system as a whole, you see that you have been spoon-fed lies, hypocricy and hatred since baptism.

Cast off you shroud of false knowledge known as faith; thrown down your weapon known as prosetylization.  Faith simply means to believe without evidence, and anyone can believe or be led to believe in anything if they are used to getting nothing for something.  It's time you asked for your money's/Sunday's worth.  "Where is this ever-loving God to whom I have donated and sacrificed one seventh of my week?  I demand evidence or I'm taking my money and time elsewhere!"

But of course, you'll never ask for such compensation.  That requires balls--the likes that we have already mustered, presented, and retained for so long.


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SkeleTony wrote:Another

SkeleTony wrote:

Another problem with this chestnut is the idea that if God somehow made himself apparent to our rational devices(senses and brain), it would be akin to robbing us of our free will. If this is so then my own mother robbed me of free will from the time I was born. Gravity removed any chance of me exercising free will after I left the womb. So there is no reason we cannot have free will AND be rationally cognizant of his presence.

 

Quote:

 I think most people that argue the freewill arguement are wrong. When I was a christian freewill was not a rationalization for god, but a facet of god. Freewill was not some mystical power, but just a thought that mankind has the right to freely choose to serve god. I have read through many posts on the subject, but I have yet to really find one that makes sense to me on the very basic level freewill is supposed to.

However, god violated freewill in the bible so why wouldn't god violate freewill today? Everytime god appeared to moses and the israelites don't you think that it violated their freewill to choose rather or not to worship it? Hardening the pharoah's heart is not a violation of freewill? Demons being allowed to possess humans is not a violation of freewill? If god or jesus appeared to somebody today wouldn't that be a violation of freewill? I mean in god appeared to me today I probably would have no other choice than to believe. I guess this is why god has to stay so hidden, I dunno. I still think it's funny that after seeing all of god's miracles some many in the exodus decided toworship a golden calf........ hilarious! Of course Moses had them killed....... right? I think these can be refined as better examples for the lack of freewill, but as I am not as much of an abstract thinker as most here I digress at this point.

SkeleTony wrote:
 

There is so much wrong with that one paragraph that I could write 5,000 words addressing it and still not cover all the problems. My late friend Charles Fiterman used to say: "No being worthy of worship would WANT TO BE worshiped.". The gods exhibit ever madness and vice of humanity. Worship, jealously, contempt, etc....these are all egotistical qualities. Character flaws. Understandable in humans but in an alleged divinity?! Preposterous.

I agree, your friend was a wise man. If the god of the bible is real and it gets its' rocks off on sunday listening to the lame music churches across the world sing to it, count me out. If a human has similiar traits they're nacissistic, but if it's god it's ok.  All of the gods exhibit human traits because man made them up. God is angry, god is sad, god is jealous...... wow seems to be almost more human than human. Honestly, how can god be sad if it's omni-scient? If you know something in advance how can you get upset about it. If your wife is going to cheat on you and you marry her sorry ass anyways even knowing 100% that she will, how can you get upset?

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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Religion.....bah!

Do any of these "religious" people ever consider HISTORY????  Can they answer the question, Who gave the world Xtianity??  Because it certainly wasn't their gawd and the imaginary garden of eden.  Up until the time of the Zorasters it was polyTHEISM, more than one gawd.   The Zorasters gave people, albeit weak minded ones, the term monoTHEISM, one gawd.  You'd think that people, despite the brainwashing, would figure this "THEISM" thing out, I guess that fairytale, the bible, does come with a set of blinders. Eye-wink  The sad thing is that people have now began to shun actual HISTORY aside for this lame belief of gawd.


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BeelzeBuFF wrote:Do any of

BeelzeBuFF wrote:

Do any of these "religious" people ever consider HISTORY????  Can they answer the question, Who gave the world Xtianity??  Because it certainly wasn't their gawd and the imaginary garden of eden.  Up until the time of the Zorasters it was polyTHEISM, more than one gawd.   The Zorasters gave people, albeit weak minded ones, the term monoTHEISM, one gawd.  You'd think that people, despite the brainwashing, would figure this "THEISM" thing out, I guess that fairytale, the bible, does come with a set of blinders. Eye-wink  The sad thing is that people have now began to shun actual HISTORY aside for this lame belief of gawd.

Because deluded monotheists of today, can't grasp the concept that their claims came from prior ideas. They, in other aspects of their lives will readly accept that competition exists, but when it comes to theism, their stories are always original.

They will claim that the devil put false props into history to make it look like something was there before.

THEY ARE RIGHT, something was there before, but not because of a magical man in a red leotard, but because humans get their stories from prior cultures and surrounding cultures.

Religion competes like Coke and Pepsi. Coke comes out with a cherri soda and Pepsi looks at it and says, "Humn, that is a good idea, we'll take that motif, tweak the flavor a bit and change the color of the can and give it a different name."

Which makes more sense?

"Thor litterally made lighting"

Or,

Someone made up that story.

Zoroaster, as a claim and a prior religion, does not exist because the Christian Devil retroactively planted the idea in human heads. It exists because prior cultures to Christianity claimed it.

Modern monotheism wont give in to the fact that their ideas ARE NOT original.

The claim of "Jesus" is the most absurd claim in all religions because it's followers think "sacrifice" did not exist prior to the first claimed Christians.

All Christianity's earler followers did was out market other religions in the idea (motif) that "sacrifice" was from a magical source.

The reality in human history, is that throwing a human into a volcano, or sacrificing a goat predates the morbid motif of killing yourself to yourself so others can kiss your ass, or burn forever, and all are just as rediculous.

The idea magical sacrifice is not a result of magic, via goat or Jesus, or volcano. It is a result of mundane human empathy, and human error combined with superstition.

If we can give up something of ourselves, maybe that will help us, and all we have is each other. Which, for the species can help it grow. "I scratch your back you scratch mine, doesn't need fictional broomsticks or promises of harems or cookies in fictional afterlife.

We "sacrifice" in reality, void of magic,  because we like to think we are helping each other. No magic involved.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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A recent email said, "you

A recent email said, "you just don't get it because you just can't feel it, god's love."

I replied, "you can't face god's indifference, and you hate god, because you hate and fear reality, which is god, and run from the simple truth that you are god, as even story jesus said, which you christians, and all idol worshipers, foolishly and cleverly corrupt.


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christianity teaches us

christianity teaches us guilt, shame, for natural impulses. for instance masturbation. i think there is a bible quote "i would rather see it in a whores belly than on the ground" ok first off they say we arent similar to animals, i disagree. males are sexually active not matter human, rat, snake, or whatever. so its a sin to explore my body sexually. its a pit of scum.. YEA ok. the bible was written back when the only form of birth control was abstinence. i mean i really tried to believe in god i REALLY tried. but the more i look at christanity as a whole the more i see nothing but BULLSHIT i mean there are good points to the idea of god dont get me wrong i mean it does teach things for a good life but it also has contradictions and hyppocritical statements. i mean read a psychology book people they say the devil puts temptation in your head.. so ok they are basically saying that im walking around all day like those characters in a cartoon when they think about doing something questionable they have the little devil on the right shoulder and the little angel on the left. one saying "yes do it do it theyll never find out" and the angel saying "no dont do it" COMEON how nieve do they think i am. some christians argue that the reason god is so insubbortinated is because people cant excercise perfect adhearence to the christan lifestyle. well how can a man adhere to a so called "perfect" way of life when there are contradictions/hyppocracy/murdering of first borns/ and the list goes on and on.. how??? i dunno this is just my opinion please  check out the myspace site. www.myspace.com/blogaholic


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All super natural based

All super natural based religions teach that our natural emotions are a gift from a fictional being.

"Guilt" dispite what Christians think, is an emotion that atheist can have too. BUT, we atribute that to natural human empathy, and not arbitrary fictional law givers who want you to feel guilty about playing with yourself.

I feel guilty when I know I have hurt someone and it doesn't take fiction to explain it.

Karma is another version of bullshit superstition that tries to say that guilt has a magical source.

Human emotions are not the product of magic anymore than taking a crap is.

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RationalResponseSquad

RationalResponseSquad wrote:


When we say we "love" someone, we give them a choice to love us back. God
is perfect in Love, so He gives us free will. His will is for us to choose
him. But his Perfect Love makes it possible for us to disobey him. So God
can't stop being himself because He's perfect.

Being new here I have a couple of questions that I have not found that any theists can answer for me, it is slightly off track but I hope you will indulge me.  You state here and in other posts that
1. God is perfect in love, ergo he loves all of us ( I would assume).
2. God is omnipotent, meaning he can do anything.  He created the universe and everything in it right?
3. God is omniscient, meaning he knows everything.  This according to the bible is from creation to the "end of days".
This is my conundrum
1. If God loves us all why do we spend an eternity in torment in Hell if we displease him
2. If God is omnipotent why does not just destroy or at least reeducate Satan, to be a force for good to remove the potential for corruption and end human suffering.  The reduction in human suffering also applies to question 1.
3. If God is omniscient he already knows what is going to happen, therefore  we can not make a choice that contradicts his master plan he formulated at the time of Genesis that was prophesied in the book of Revelation.  Thereby this negates the option of free will.
I am curious how you reconcile the obvious contradiction in the tenets of your religion, It seems at least one of them is incorrect.
Thank you.


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BeelzeBuFF wrote:Do any of

BeelzeBuFF wrote:

Do any of these "religious" people ever consider HISTORY????  Can they answer the question, Who gave the world Xtianity??  Because it certainly wasn't their gawd and the imaginary garden of eden.  Up until the time of the Zorasters it was polyTHEISM, more than one gawd.   The Zorasters gave people, albeit weak minded ones, the term monoTHEISM, one gawd.  You'd think that people, despite the brainwashing, would figure this "THEISM" thing out, I guess that fairytale, the bible, does come with a set of blinders. Eye-wink  The sad thing is that people have now began to shun actual HISTORY aside for this lame belief of gawd.

I am going to start another thread because you brought up something interesting. I know about the Zoroasters but one of the Egyptian Pharohs "Akanaton"(not sure) but one of them did make an attempt to make Ra the one central god. It wasn't popular and the Egyptians didn't like it, and after his reign I believe that they attempted to errase pulbic record of his rule. If anyone can extrapolate on that and tell me who came first, the Zoroasters or the Pharo, I'd like to know that timeline. IN THE NEW THREAD! Lets leave this one to its own topic.

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how can god give us free

how can god give us free will? I see nothing like that in the bible. Until his hippie son came along. >.>

"a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." -Dawkins


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 Logical Dude sent a

 

Logical Dude sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

The purpose of a microwave is to make things warmer. The purpose of a
television set is to display images for us to see. Please then tell me
what is our purpose? Do we have any purpose of existence? I'm sorry that
people are threatening you guys. The reason whey there are so many
religions in our world today is because people want to know their purpose.
What's the point of living? Worship means - showing something worth.
Worth-ship. We all show something worth. I believe we were designed for
that very reason; to esteem our designer by loving each other. People
crave this thing called love. Christ did the biggest act of love; dying
for us. No other god has ever shown that degree of love. What's your
purpose?

 

Have you ever thought of a purpose for a roach? Or a plant? Or any other living organism on the planet besides human? The purpose is always the same, for all living organisms, it just isn´t so magical and amazing as you might expect. There are thermodynamic answers for this but to put it simply: life is on this planet because we get a lot of energy from the sun, which has to be dissipated in order to keep things as they are. That´s why you eat, and have to eat everyday, so you can process the energy in your food (which by the way is always a living organism as well) and use it as dissipate it in the form of heat. I know it doesn´t sound very wonderful and all, but it has answered a lot of my questions Smiling


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Come again?

From which peer-reviewed journalist's ass did you pull this explanation out of?--  Life exists on Earth "because we get a lot of energy from the sun?"

You just lost your right to serve the High Life.

Veronicamb wrote:

 

Have you ever thought of a purpose for a roach? Or a plant? Or any other living organism on the planet besides human? The purpose is always the same, for all living organisms, it just isn´t so magical and amazing as you might expect. There are thermodynamic answers for this but to put it simply: life is on this planet because we get a lot of energy from the sun, which has to be dissipated in order to keep things as they are. That´s why you eat, and have to eat everyday, so you can process the energy in your food (which by the way is always a living organism as well) and use it as dissipate it in the form of heat. I know it doesn´t sound very wonderful and all, but it has answered a lot of my questions Smiling

"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."


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Quote:From:

Quote:

From: chevaunt@hotmail.com


 Worship means - showing something worth.
Worth-ship.

Yes, and misinformed means allowing your brain to rely upon myth.

Myth-informed. Which you are.

 

 

 

Quote:
I believe we were designed for
that very reason; to esteem our designer by loving each other.

Believe anything you would like to so long as you aren't shoving

your religion down the throats of others or leading those not yet mostly

aware of reality down your slippery slope.

 

 

Quote:
 Christ did the biggest act of love; dying
for us.

What do believers mean when they say this? Do you honestly believe that

everyone wants an eternal life? I for one, don't. To live forever would be

torture to me. At some point under your scenario, nothingness would be

very welcome to many, I'm sure. Of course, a lifespan of 200 years

might not be too bad, so long as I'm not in physical and mental collapse 

for the last hundred. 

 

 

Quote:
No other god has ever shown that degree of love.

 

So, there have been other gods, is that what you are saying? Do you

believe in all of them.... after all, are they not gods?

 

Quote:
What's your
purpose?

 

Whatever I want it to be. And if tomorrow I would

like to change my idea(s) regarding my purpose, I can.


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George Carlin said he

George Carlin said he "worshiped" the Sun, in his 'religion is B.S.' skit. Clever Alan Watts said we are the earth, air, sun, cosmos. I think this was more to Veronicamb's point. Thermodynamics, the Oneness of all connected, which for me is an atheist materialist science definition of gawed.  The religious separatists inventions of god is childishly wishfully ignorant. 


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RationalResponseSquad

RationalResponseSquad wrote:

From: chevaunt@hotmail.com
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:51 PM
Subject: [General Question] Why So much suffering and evil? Here's why.

 

Logical Dude sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

When we say we "love" someone, we give them a choice to love us back. God
is perfect in Love, so He gives us free will. His will is for us to choose
him. But his Perfect Love makes it possible for us to disobey him. So God
can't stop being himself because He's perfect. The first disobedient act
in the Garden led to a chain reaction called "the curse of sin". Everybody
now has their own ideas of what is right and wrong because they don't
consult God. Evil is the absence of "godliness" just like cold is the
absence of heat. Dark is the absence of light. God hates it when we hate
each other. God hates our hateful actions towards people and Him. The
first 4 commandments of the 10 instructs us how to treat God. Then
commandments 5 - 10 instructs us how to treat people. The Manual helps us
to realize our purpose just like a manual for any given invention. Don't
give up on your purpose.

 

Here's the crux of your flaw. By your own admissions: God is perfect. God gave us free will. God knows what we will do. God created us. Yet god caused it all. Pefection is not capable of making a mistake, as the two terms are mutually exclusive. So evil isn't a mistake. So god is evil, as he created evil, and allowed it to flourish.  Therefore, you are worshipping (here you may apply whatever evil deity or demi-god works for you as the opposite of the god you think you are worshipping). Not god.

 

logicaldude wrote:

The purpose of a microwave is to make things warmer.

Wrong. The microwave has no purpose. It was a mistake, like most of our inventions. It has been given purpose by us, but without us, it reverts to being purposeless.

logicaldude wrote:
The purpose of a television set is to display images for us to see.
 

While the television was not quite the same kind of mistake the microwave was, it has no more purpose than a microwave does. Without a person to activate and view it, a television has no purpose.

logicaldude wrote:
 Please then tell me what is our purpose? Do we have any purpose of existence?

Not any meaning beyond that which we give ourselves, like the meaning we have given to everything within our awareness.

logicaldude wrote:
I'm sorry that people are threatening you guys.

I take it as a compliment when a theist threatens me. It means they're too stupid to respond to my points, and I am better than they are. 

logicaldude wrote:
 The reason whey there are so many religions in our world today is because people want to know their purpose.
What's the point of living?

The point of living is to live. I have yet to see a theist give me a satisfactory answer as to why life must have a purpose. I mention this merely to illustrate to you the unreality you are speaking from, and do not expect an answer. Mostly because you don't have one. 

logicaldude wrote:
Worship means - showing something worth.
Worth-ship. We all show something worth.

Oh really? Why is it that every dictionary shows this accepted definition of "worship"?

  • idolize: love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess; venerate as an idol; "Many teenagers idolized the Beatles"
  • the activity of worshipping
  • show devotion to (a deity); "Many Hindus worship Shiva"
  • a feeling of profound love and admiration
  • attend religious services; "They worship in the traditional manner"
  • Strange, but I see nothing indicating that worship has an intrinsic value by definition. Don't worry, you aren't the first theist to make up their own definitions for words once they find out the real definitions destroy their arguments.

    logicaldude wrote:
    I believe we were designed for that very reason; to esteem our designer by loving each other.

    You can believe you are a watch for sale at the local shop all you like. I prefer knowing that I am unique, and that it took no less than 13 billion years and an incalculable number of flukes for me to sit here typing this. It seems to have more value that way, and I am less a slave to an unforgiving and uncaring master who doesn't have the balls to show himself let alone communicate with his creation.

    logicaldude wrote:
     People crave this thing called love. Christ did the biggest act of love; dying
    for us.

    You'll want to back that truck up fast. 1: Prove christ existed. Good luck. 2: Prove christ died for us. 3: Prove he needed to. 4: Prove it accomplished anything.

    logicaldude wrote:
     No other god has ever shown that degree of love. What's your
    purpose?

    Your god hasn't shown it either. My purpose is to bring the light of reality to the darkness in your mind. Will you let me?

    Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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    Free Will & Omni-max deities

    Atheists generally leap right to the contradiction between God's alleged omniscience and MAN'S alleged free will. But it is worse than that. God himself cannot have free will to grant anyone else ANYTHING(including free will to humans). If as far back in time as you care to go God is still omniscient and KNOWS with Godly certainty that he will create the earth and humanity, then at what point could he possibly ponder a decision to do so?

     

    To try and escape this paradox theists tend to offer the "transcendence" rationalization. God is somehow "beyond" or "outside of" time/linearity. But this also fails because the very criteria by which we distinguish that which exists from that which does NOT exist(save for existing in the imagination alone) entails linearity and having sense contents. If God is "transcendent" then what is the difference between THAT God and an imaginary God?

     

    Quote:
    The purpose of a microwave is to make things warmer. The purpose of a
    television set is to display images for us to see. Please then tell me
    what is our purpose? Do we have any purpose of existence? I'm sorry that
    people are threatening you guys. The reason whey there are so many
    religions in our world today is because people want to know their purpose.
    What's the point of living? Worship means - showing something worth.
    Worth-ship. We all show something worth. I believe we were designed for
    that very reason; to esteem our designer by loving each other. People
    crave this thing called love. Christ did the biggest act of love; dying
    for us. No other god has ever shown that degree of love. What's your
    purpose?

     

    1)We have no "purpose" in the sense you are using the term. Our having some purpose would imply God was imperfect and thus needed something for which we were 'designed' to accomplish. To ascribe "purpose" to our mere existence is like getting buried in an avalanche and asking "Who threw those rocks on me?"

     

    2)When it comes to supernatural deities, I am an atheist by virtue of not believing such things exist(or even CAN exist in my case as a strong atheist). But as my late friend Charles Fiterman used to say when it comes to gods which I know DO exist, such as the sun, Kim Jong Il, etc., treated as a god IS a god and I am an atheist by virtue of not willingly granting gods worship. Worship is immoral and a bad idea all around. No god worthy of worship would want to be worshiped and the act of worship demeans the worshiper.

     

    3)Christ's very existence, even as simply a mortal human in the name of "Jesus" is doubtful(to be generous) but even IF we take for granted that such a man existed and WAS crucified by the Romans, how does this = his being a martyr for us?! IS he not, by Christian reckoning, still an immortal deity or demi-god? To kill an immortal being who cannot possibly know what it is to BE mortal(as he never has had to face the threat of nonexistence), without actually killing him(of course) and then calling that a great sacrifice is beyond absurd.


    Godlord666 (not verified)
    Posts: 4294964979
    Joined: 1969-12-31
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     First e-mail:  

     

    First e-mail:

     

    “So God can't stop being himself because He's perfect.”

     

    Paradox 1 that makes no sense

     

    “When we say we "love" someone, we give them a choice to love us back. God
    is perfect in Love, so He gives us free will. His will is for us to choose
    him. But his Perfect Love makes it possible for us to disobey him. So God
    can't stop being himself because He's perfect. The first disobedient act
    in the Garden led to a chain reaction called "the curse of sin". Everybody
    now has their own ideas of what is right and wrong because they don't
    consult God. Evil is the absence of "godliness" just like cold is the
    absence of heat. Dark is the absence of light. God hates it when we hate
    each other. God hates our hateful actions towards people and Him. The
    first 4 commandments of the 10 instructs us how to treat God. Then
    commandments 5 - 10 instructs us how to treat people. The Manual helps us
    to realize our purpose just like a manual for any given invention. Don't
    give up on your purpose.”

     

    Yes, we are completely aware that this is one of the most common variations of the religion as taught by a preacher. Now prove to us the validity of the Bible and we might find it credible.

     

    Second e-mail:

     

    “Christ did the biggest act of love; dying for us. No other god has ever shown that degree of love.”

     

    First off, no he didn’t. Secondly, yes there have been other Gods who showed this degree of love: Horus, Mithra, Attis, Krishna….

     

    “What's your purpose?”

     

    I don’t know that there is a purpose at all and if there is then I don’t know that purpose. What makes you think you know? Nobody knows, therefore we should not live our life from the perspective that we do.