Why you fail...

Presuppositionalist
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Why you fail...

Atheism is predicated upon the idea that God is not necessary for the successful use of reason. However, this actually means that reason is totally impotent. Here's why.

All of the only three ("tri"-lemma) possible attempts to get a certain justification must fail:

  1. All justifications in pursuit of certain knowledge have also to justify the means of their justification and doing so they have to justify anew the means of their justification. Therefore there can be no end. We are faced with the hopeless situation of 'infinite regression'.
  2. One can justify with a circular argument, but this sacrifices its validity.
  3. One can stop at self-evidence or common sense or fundamental principles or speaking 'ex cathedra' or at any other evidence, but in doing so the intention to install certain justification is abandoned.

SOURCE

So any attempt to find truths within reason alone is flawed. Ergo, the atheist is compelled to assume some external standard upon which to base his reasoning. Blind nature doesn't care if he gets the right answers, so it cannot be trusted. Since anything non-sentient is an insufficient standard, he must take as his standard a mind, a consciousness, a thinking thing that care about him and wants him to find the truth. Ergo, atheism assumes the existence of something much like the Christian God.

Note: Admittedly, the Christian God is a lot more than just a caring mind, but this argument (a) rules out naturalism and (b) confirms a prediction of Christianity.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

MODS! Help me out. One of you has mistakenly given me a "troll" avatar. Read any of my threads: I am one of the most intelligent members of this forum, and I consistently contribute interesting points of discussion in civil fashion. I don't deserve this. Please restore my original avatar immediately. Thank you. Also, in the interest of justice, you should punish whoever gave me this avatar. I suspect Hambydammit. Thank you again.

 

Ummmmm

 

Hahahahahahahahahahaha! You should have gotten the "asshat" avatar. Saying you are one of the most intelligent members on this forum is like saying Bill Gates and Donald Trump are a couple of the most abject victims of poverty on Earth.

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And why, I put it to you,

And why, I put it to you, must we seek certainty? Why should we not seek reasonable certainty? We cannot ever be fully certain of anything beyond our own existence. We cannot ever be absolutely certain that we are human, that the universe is as we appear to perceive it, or any other single iota of data save that the observer, in some form, must exist or else he could not be questioning his certainty.

Thus, reason becomes a means to make sense of observations we already cannot be certain of. If the basic observations on which we operate our reason, and through which we understand our reason, are only reasonably certain to begin with, then why should we expect reason to deliver absolutes? Reason my imply absolutes, but reason is predicated on trusting the observations we make, and so such implications are only as reliable as the observations they are based upon.

Science and reason are not the pursuit of absolute knowledge. They are the pursuit of absolute questioning. Of striving not to answer the question before us, but of uncovering the questions our predecessors never knew existed to ask.

You claim 'blind nature' (by which I take to mean the observable universe) does not care if we find the right answers, and so cannot be trusted. But 'blind nature' does not deceive. It contains of itself only the correct answers. It is ourselves, our limited perceptions, and often our preconceived misconceptions, which deceive us, and prevent us from observing the universe around us as clearly as we wish. Any mind, as you put it, is subject to constructing preconceived notions. Any mind is subject to the same limitation we are: There is no external source that can be relied upon, because that mind cannot independently verify that it exists in the form it perceives itself to exist in. Thus, no thinking thing can be relied upon exclusively.

In fact, we must rely upon 'blind nature', precisely because it does not care: It is impartial. It has no motives, and so has no bias. It will never tell us we have the right answer when we do not, because it wants us to feel good. We are forced to rely upon 'blind nature', because it will only give us more to observe, present us with more evidence to attempt to understand, and by making that attempt, more opportunities to use unbiased, impartial sources to correct any preconceived errors we may make.

But in the end, there is no absolute certainty beyond 'I am'. Anything claiming to provide it seeks to deceive you.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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MattShizzle

MattShizzle wrote:

Presuppositionalist wrote:

MODS! Help me out. One of you has mistakenly given me a "troll" avatar. Read any of my threads: I am one of the most intelligent members of this forum, and I consistently contribute interesting points of discussion in civil fashion. I don't deserve this. Please restore my original avatar immediately. Thank you. Also, in the interest of justice, you should punish whoever gave me this avatar. I suspect Hambydammit. Thank you again.

 

Ummmmm

 

Hahahahahahahahahahaha! You should have gotten the "asshat" avatar. Saying you are one of the most intelligent members on this forum is like saying Bill Gates and Donald Trump are a couple of the most abject victims of poverty on Earth.

Thank you, Matt, for your topical-as-always contribution to this thread.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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**** Warning: Full

**** Warning: Full MattShizzle halfway drunk rant follows. Presup is about to be blasted with masterworks of pimp profanity****

 

Why are we even arguing with this dumb motherfucker. He don't even realize he deserves the troll avatar. Stupid people are one thing but stupid motherfuckers that think they're intelligent are really fucking stupid. This dumbass doesn't even get that the godless geeks list of proofs for god is a parody and posted a link to them as good proofs for god. What the fuck? If he's a pasrody he's brilliant but if he's serious (which I suspect) he's too stupid to be allowed to reproduce. Holy shit, you are so fucking stupid you probably think Taco Bell is the Mexican phone company. You so stupid your IQ test came back "negative." Bitch, if we downloaded your brain we could fit it in a pocket calculator and probably have plenty of memory left. I'm sure you rode the short bus to school as a kid - yeah that meant you were special but here's a surprise - it wasn't special in a good way. You probably think that the sun is the back of the moon.

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Do you really think anyone

Do you really think anyone is going to think I said that to you. Besides being stupid you have proven yourself very dishonest.

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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Atheism is predicated upon the idea that God is not necessary for the successful use of reason.

What the fuck is this thing you call 'god'?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Indeed aiia. I'm GOD , fuck

Indeed aiia. I'm GOD , fuck god of Abraham ....     I am what I am .....

   Science studies god, Religion preaches the devil of wrong thinking, of god division, idol worship, separatism ....


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You are dimly aware that to

You are dimly aware that to predicate logic on x, you have to first assume that causality--through logic--is valid, right?


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If you aren't a troll, why

If you aren't a troll, why do you have a troll avatar? I don't need to explore the reasons behind it, I'll presuppose its validity based on its presence alone. You assume a deity based on less.


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most of you know I'm new

most of you know I'm new here. Why hasn't Presup noticed the troll avatar in all the time I've been here? Why is he/she/it only managing to notice now?

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Kay Cat wrote:most of you

Kay Cat wrote:

most of you know I'm new here. Why hasn't Presup noticed the troll avatar in all the time I've been here? Why is he/she/it only managing to notice now?

I was pretty sure he chose it to begin with. This new claim is surprising, to say the least.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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BMcD wrote:Kay Cat

BMcD wrote:

Kay Cat wrote:

most of you know I'm new here. Why hasn't Presup noticed the troll avatar in all the time I've been here? Why is he/she/it only managing to notice now?

I was pretty sure he chose it to begin with. This new claim is surprising, to say the least.

 

so... would it be a reasonable assumption to think he knows he's losing the game he's playing and is now using the 'poor mistreated xtian who's being attacked by the mean, nasty, evil atheist mods' tactic?

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MattShizzle wrote:Do you

MattShizzle wrote:

Do you really think anyone is going to think I said that to you. Besides being stupid you have proven yourself very dishonest.

No, you did say that. You earned it, Matt. You earned your very special little place in my sig, which even as we speak is broadcasting your love for me into every thread I've ever contributed to.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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I've never seen anyone

I've never seen anyone guzzle as much cum as Presuppositionalist.

You can quote me on that.

 


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magilum wrote:I've never

magilum wrote:

I've never seen anyone guzzle as much cum as Presuppositionalist.

You can quote me on that.

 

 

I will.

 

tell me, what are the odds of it being his own?

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MODS!Hiiiiii. Help me out.

MODS!

Hiiiiii.

Help me out. One of you has mistakenly given me a "troll" avatar. Read any of my threads: I am one of the most intelligent members of this forum*, and I consistently contribute interesting points of discussion in civil fashion. I don't deserve this.

Your posts... have all sucked. In fact, I need a god to account for the uniformity of their crapiness.

Please restore my original avatar immediately. Thank you. Also, in the interest of justice, you should punish whoever gave me this avatar. I suspect Hambydammit. Thank you again.

Hey guys, did anyone save a copy of the "bible flying over stock photo globe" icon? No? Sorry, dude.

 


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Hey MODS, please don't block

Hey MODS, please don't block the crazies .... such a lesson they bring .... 


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magilum wrote:If you aren't

magilum wrote:

If you aren't a troll, why do you have a troll avatar? I don't need to explore the reasons behind it, I'll presuppose its validity based on its presence alone. You assume a deity based on less.

 

magilum,

What you wrote were my exact thoughts as I read presup's opening.

If only I'd been awake at 1 a.m., I would have beat you to it.  Thanks.

 

Now, does anyone still have that pic of the whining little presupper on the tricycle

with the big square wheel on the front ????? Ya know, the one that says "You Fail".


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magilum wrote:If you aren't

magilum wrote:

If you aren't a troll, why do you have a troll avatar? I don't need to explore the reasons behind it, I'll presuppose its validity based on its presence alone. You assume a deity based on less.

Wow, you have no idea what you are talking about. Read something by Bahnsen or Van Til before criticizing their philosophy please, thank you.

Q: Why didn't you address (post x) that I made in response to you nine minutes ago???

A: Because I have (a) a job, (b) familial obligations, (c) social obligations, and (d) probably a lot of other atheists responded to the same post you did, since I am practically the token Christian on this site now. Be patient, please.


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[Edit] I've removed my own

[Edit] I've removed my own post because I put it in the wrong thread.  Doh!

 

M


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 Presuppositionalist

 

Presuppositionalist wrote:

MODS! Help me out. One of you has mistakenly given me a "troll" avatar. Read any of my threads: I am one of the most intelligent members of this forum*, and I consistently contribute interesting points of discussion in civil fashion. I don't deserve this. Please restore my original avatar immediately. Thank you. Also, in the interest of justice, you should punish whoever gave me this avatar harshly and with great vengeance. I suspect Hambydammit and/or magilum. And if magilum didn't do it please punish him anyway. Thanks again.

Please note that the attention you are receiving from your posts aren't out of respect or awe of your intelligence. Do not confuse the activity on a post for  your acceptance.

 

Slowly building a blog at ~

http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Atheism is predicated upon the idea that God is not necessary for the successful use of reason. However, this actually means that reason is totally impotent. Here's why.

All of the only three ("tri"-lemma) possible attempts to get a certain justification must fail:

  1. All justifications in pursuit of certain knowledge have also to justify the means of their justification and doing so they have to justify anew the means of their justification. Therefore there can be no end. We are faced with the hopeless situation of 'infinite regression'.

I'm going to mostly echo BMac here by saying it's a big presumption you're making that science is the blind pursuit of certain knowledge ignorant of a lack of justification, and not instead a meticulously organised collection of practical meta-knowledge incorporating a decent level of awareness of its flimsy foundation.

The pursuit of certain knowledge is really only a lay view of modern science, whereas the hard working nuts and bolts people of academia are often quite painfully aware that their abstract tools are just distant relatives makeshift mimicking the real universe, well enough to use, but far from certain.

It's also a mistake to say that reason does not presuppose an 'entity for' uniformity because it presumes to not need one, that's completely wrong. There is far more justification to not presupposing an immutable one such as the fact that presupposing some non evident immutable entity then entails anticipating what is to be presupposed about that entity, and further what is to be presupposed about presupposing that entity ad nauseam.. in the who made God, who made god's god, and who made god's god's god...... fashion.. only more like:

... what should god look like, what should looking at god look like that we should ascertain what god looks like - what should looking at looking at god look like that we should ascertain what looking at god should entail, thereby to ascertain what looking at god does entail, thereupon to decide what god looks like... and so on.

The best thing to do with the justification of reason, surely you must agree, is to take down a note in the margin that your justification is weak and might fail... and carry on, otherwise known as pragmatism.

 

**I'd like to make an additional note about the troll avatar thing. Frankly I've been less than impressed before regarding the criteria for handing out of shame labels that some mods here hold. I didn't think Gavagai deserved one, really, and there were a couple of others as well that I can't think of off the top of my head, but anyhow, I don't think Presupp deserves a shame label, to my mind he does put genuine effort and consideration into his posts, even if he is a bit stubborn, I don't think he means to be anything less than a wholehearted contributor to the discussion.  I hope I don't come across as presumptuous here, it's only an opinion from the sidelines and I fully endorse the admins making their own decisions as to the forums culture. However, just one more thing, I'm curious, who are the theist mods in the KEWK forum? I've not seen any.

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Eloise, the best theist in

Eloise, the best theist in the world !       Knocking  them Xains for a loop .... and punching on atheists too ....    communication delight , surfing safari

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Wonko wrote:Now, does anyone

Wonko wrote:

Now, does anyone still have that pic of the whining little presupper on the tricycle

with the big square wheel on the front ????? Ya know, the one that says "You Fail".

 

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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THANKS MATT

THANKS MATT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

magilum wrote:

If you aren't a troll, why do you have a troll avatar? I don't need to explore the reasons behind it, I'll presuppose its validity based on its presence alone. You assume a deity based on less.

Wow, you have no idea what you are talking about. Read something by Bahnsen or Van Til before criticizing their philosophy please, thank you.

Many of us have and had excellent laughs due to that reading. Others have already shredded Bahnsen and Van Til so I leave it to you to find those threads. You're welcome.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Presuppositionalist

Presuppositionalist wrote:

magilum wrote:

If you aren't a troll, why do you have a troll avatar? I don't need to explore the reasons behind it, I'll presuppose its validity based on its presence alone. You assume a deity based on less.

Wow, you have no idea what you are talking about. Read something by Bahnsen or Van Til before criticizing their philosophy please, thank you.

Are they responsible for your current state?


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By the wayYesterday while we

By the way

Yesterday while we were screwing my girlfriend screamed "Oh God!" That proves God exists

would also be a joke. Would you consider that valid evidence?

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magilum wrote:I've never

magilum wrote:

I've never seen anyone guzzle as much cum as Presuppositionalist.

You can quote me on that.

 

That actually is a pretty good quote. I say we all quote it in our posts on this thread, especially if it has nothing to do with our post.

 

Eloise wrote:

I hope I don't come across as presumptuous here

It is an internet forum, being presumptuous is par for the course.

 

Matt wrote:

By the way

Yesterday while we were screwing my girlfriend screamed "Oh God!" That proves God exists

would also be a joke. Would you consider that valid evidence?

Well, at least it is better evidence than the tripe offered up by Presuppositionalist. Compared to his ramblings on "certain knowledge" your evidence for god is looking pretty good. The only sad thing here is that Presuppositionalist is serious. The thought that your joke proof is better than his serious proof makes me just a little depressed.

 

Onto more serious matters....

Presuppositionalist, what do you even mean by "certain knowledge" and who is out pursuing it? Knowledge inherently comes with some amount of uncertainty. I think most people here would admit that they could be wrong about something they think they know. So long as no one claims absolute certainty your argument is worthless.

 

Presuppositionalist wrote:

he must take as his standard a mind, a consciousness, a thinking thing that care about him and wants him to find the truth

Nope. You are just plain wrong on this one. We are the consciousness that gathers knowledge. People are the thinking things that care about finding the truth. We are not assuming that there is some other thinking thing that wants us to find the truth. We can find the truth all on our own.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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aiia

aiia wrote:

Presuppositionalist wrote:

Atheism is predicated upon the idea that God is not necessary for the successful use of reason.

What the fuck is this thing you call 'god'?

I heard it has something with piles. Nasty stuff.

Ecrasez l'infame!