A question a christian couldn't answer.
Offline This is part of a small debate between me and a christian. Its pretty boring tho, he refuses to give any answers that are not in his bible.
Christian-When you answer my question we'll go to the next step.
But until then we are at a standstill.
The question was "When Jesus said "I am the way nobody comes to the father except through the son"
Do you believe He was right?
Anybody that denys Christ was a historical person needs to educate themselves. Everybody knows he is the evidence is overwhelming.
Me-That is assuming I believe in Jesus. I'll admit to being an agnostic, but so much of the bible is contradictory, its hard to believe in christianity when evolution is without a doubt, provable, and observed. And my question to you is, besides vague and postdiction prophecies, where is the evidence of god?
Christian-When you answer my question we'll go to the next step.
But until then we are at a standstill.
The question was "When Jesus said "I am the way nobody comes to the father except through the son"
Do you believe He was right?
Anybody that denys Christ was a historical person needs to educate themselves. Everybody knows he is the evidence is overwhelming.
And this is the question he fails to answer. Me- Actually, maybe you need to brush up on your theology. Almost all the acounts written about jesus were written down 20-150 years after his so called death. But to get by the standstill, no I do not believe he is right. I fail to believe that if there is a god, and we are his children, then he would never condemn us. If I have a daughter or a son, no matter how much they wrong me, I would never condemn them to hell. (I didn't do much research on this, but I believe it to be fact and havent found any evidence to the contrary, any theist have a link that will prove me wrong?)
Christian-You would not condemn your child to hell..your own child would.
People have free will God is not a liberal he gave us free will.
If your kid grows up and takes drugs and gets into witchcraft and denys Christ...that is THEIR fault not Gods.
Your a liberal arent you? I can tell.
Me-Wrong, I am a conservative (actually independent but lean right, don't kill me, its been bred into me since I live in kansas). Also, your evading the real nature of the question, if your a parent, and you love your kids, no matter what they say or do, you would always try to help them, not condemn them to an eternity in hell. Anyways, this topic is getting to theological, and is quite dull since I am not a christian anyways. Prove to me the existance of god using science, and not using the bible as a historical context.
Christian-Your a nut please leave me alone thanks.
Me-If by nut you mean, a person who uses logic and knowledge. If you are unable to come up with a rebuttal, then I suggest you adhere to your own beliefs and not attack someone for the sake of offending. If you are not comfortable with the question, then don't answer it, and answer this. Can you prove gods existance with science?
Can any theist here give me their views on that question? Also, when someone has to resort to personally attacking you, doesn't that mean you won? 
When once asked in the library if I believed in Jesus Christ, I pointed out that zombie novels are in the fiction section.
And by question, I mean if your god loves us, why would he let us go to hell, even if we deny his existance. I would never condemn anyone to a hell, let alone my own children.
When once asked in the library if I believed in Jesus Christ, I pointed out that zombie novels are in the fiction section.
Turns out he blocked me, who would of thought.
When once asked in the library if I believed in Jesus Christ, I pointed out that zombie novels are in the fiction section.
Sounds like a true asshat and an utter pussy.
I like how "moving forward" was contingent on an arbitrary answer to an incoherent question.
Why yes, I do believe a brown squirrel is responsible for the ultimate hot air balloon race around the lollipop trees.
Reasoning like that reminds me of the deep shit we're in.
There is rational proof that there is a god, or at least something outside of space time, as proven by neil mammen in this http://www.neilmammen.com/sermon/TheSingularityWhoisAgentX.pdf
Yes I can, but probably not in the sense you intended. God is the precondition of logic, of life, of reason, and of science. You my friend have beliefs which you cannot explain and which do not account for themselves. Hence your confusion and the hopeless malaise in which you live. Read the Bible. Understand the Bible. Live the Bible. That is all you need to know. It is difficult. It will take everything you have. But if you are the right sort of person you will accomplish it.
Woah cool then I've won everything I've ever posted on here. I've even won my sig apparently since I've been attacked 3 or 4 times about that.
Jesus said "I am the way" .... It was an atheist message, and of course misunderstood , and perverted for gain .... You are Christ ... as all is one , that was the simple message ... of the many, SIMPLE wise ones ....
Christians are ALL fucking idiots ... Fuck you and "your" Jesus ... as the Christ is in me.
YOU , me , jesus, are the exact same thing , we are god .... Da Da Da, WTF ain't god?
How to heal morons ?????????????????
Yes, I am 100% positive, I have zero doubt , call it what you will ....
faith, no faith .....
I AM .... the WAY .... as there is only ONE.
I need no Jesus, but I thank those that came boldly before me .... as I am also a time voyager .... with no choice about it .... condemned to be me .... G O D
1. So, you have to be the right sort of person to understand the Bible. God alone can make you that right sort of person. But he can't do it because you don't understand the Bible?
2. you also seem to have an odd definition of "personal attack". Shattering your arguments and shredding your sources does not constitute personal attack. I leave Matt out as he did attack you after that lovely bit of quote mining you did.
The journey is often worth more than the destination.
No. I think everyone realises that some people just are good at certain things. Bible study is one of them.
I have been personally attacked in every single thread I have ever created. You would have to be blind to say otherwise. Example: Magilum has a quote circulating, I believe...
Out of curiousity, does this mean that my friend John can use bears to kill children if they point out that he's bald?
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
Account for the uniformity of your butt-hurt.
I can answer that question but I'm not sure how you would go with taking in what I am saying - the answer is a simple result, but, of a model of the universe which you have possibly never even begun to consider, an explicitly quantum universe comprised of possible states of configuration. In my beliefs your christian friend has gotten the basic idea that one "condemns" themselves to "hell" voluntarily, kind of, right. But then everything else Christian beliefs of "hell" are based on have no support in reality, if the set of all possible natural states causally connected is reality, then there can be no uniquely defined, arbitrated "place" where "hell" for all possible entities exists. Furthermore, no person can ever exist strictly within any unique spatial locale, not even hell, at most a sentience could only perfunctorily attend the set comprising a continuously relative linear evolution over the physical experience of such a state (because it is not a personal state it's a soul state).
So then, my Universe/God doesn't send anyone to hell, it doesn't 'send' anyone anywhere at all, it just looks through different 'eyes' at each part of creation, some of those 'eyes' are our human identities and others are our souls. After physical life it's possible for the soul to continue being attentive to existence and it's possible that this entity attends existence eternally, while what it attends is affected by its human counterparts - so in short, if you find yourself in 'hell', from what I've understood about reality, God is there with you, well, technically, as you.
Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist
The local church has cancelled their Nativity play owing to an inability to find three wise men or a virgin in the group.
"God is there with you, well, technically, as you". ~ Eloise
But, I don't believe in god.
So then, I don't believe in myself.
Oh that's just great. In one sentance Eloise took me from an atheist to a neurotic with no self-esteem.
We are afraid of the known and afraid of the unknown. That is our daily life and in that there is no hope, and therefore every form of philosophy, every form of theological concept, is merely an escape from the actual reality of what is. All outward forms of change brought about by wars, revolutions, reformations, laws and ideologies have failed completely to change the basic nature of man and therefore of society. - Thomas Jefferson
No reply needed , You know what I mean, I think
Me/You/God , all is one.
Math anyone !
This is the way indeed , fucking with math !
Funny...
I seem to remember you claiming that people who didn't believe the way you did were intellectually and morally deficient. Now you're saying that reading the Bible can solve that problem. But wait, we can't understand the Bible because we're intellectually and morally deficient.
Personally, I think you provoked the personal attacks with the "intellectually and morally deficient" crack. But I shouldn't be offended because you're just speaking the truth of God, right?
The journey is often worth more than the destination.
Is this the question, the reason you started the thread? I personally don't understand what you mean by if he was right or not.
John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
A similar verse, not quite such a paraphrased one as used by John, is found in Matthew.
Matthew 11:27 - All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
To which part are you asking of he "was right?" The "I am the way" portion or the second part, to which eludes more to the concept of election?
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
I have to disagree with the previous response to this post. The short answer is yes. If the OP was making reference to the concept of election, no person can simply choose to believe in God. God must reveal this to the individual. But God does not have to do this to anyone he does not choose to do so with, e.g. Pharaoh.
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
This isn't just circular logic it's like the Olympic rings.
If you can't choose to believe in god, then you don't have free will/choice.
You believe in god because he wants you to.
Wow. How do you know "he" wants you to?
God did not give a choice to the Pharaoh but dammed him to hell anyway.
I don't even know where to go with this. wow...
So the child that chose to go to hell is there because of choice. but the pharaoh is there why? Oh right... god didn't make the Pharaoh.. wait...
I didn't have a choice on being a atheist, so I'm doing gods will, therefore I get to go to heaven.
(this logic is fun)
bodhi
What a screwed up, half-baked piece of illogic that thing is.
If god came before logic, does that make it illogical in its actions, without reason does it makes gods actions without reasons? If so how do you ever come to any answer of the nature of god that can be certain? In other words what makes you think an illogical and reasonless being is reliable?
Reply to both people. No, it just doesn't move the conversation in a meaningful way.
Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.
Good eve, and much fun, eh?
Personal note. I think this might be a neat place to discuss stuff about Religion and Belief and all that good stuff,
with people that think. It's neat!
I think it's something we've got to keep in mind. Noting with your story you are on your end of the playing field. You are defending with rationality and her sisters.
Personal, I figure we have to play more on the other end of the field.
E.g. We have to dance in and on the Bible and note it's shit aspect.
BTW... I figure that since I am a techy dog and know that stuff is out there, resource wise, I can use my knowledge and leverage it with the web. E.g. the Bible.
tq
You label it circular logic because you assume I mean free will of the flesh vs. that of the spirit. Because I can choose to each a burger from Burger King or McDonalds does not mean I have free will over my spirit to believe in God or not. I know this leads no where since you don't believe there is a God hence you won't believe you have a spirit so this explanation is basically wasted on you...
By the way, who said he damned Pharaoh? It only says God hardened his heart.
That's up to God, no you nor me. I cannot presume to know since if he is using you for his will by making you NOT believe, I can't say he wouldn't save you (ref Romans 2). It can easily be said that Pharaoh or even someone like Hitler could apply there. I don't know God's full plan for anyone, only what he desires of me. And part of that includes not judging anyone, including you. See how fun it is to actually believe? I tend to like that logic better...
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
"GOD" is the ultimate oxymoron, as some of these words might demonstrate.
When many eastern philosophers are asked to discus god, they often start by saying it is "worthless babel but will give it a go", to make their point(s).
To talk about god is worthless, and so it is necessary.
God is everything, so god can't forget, but humans are 100% god stuff , but do forget.
God does not judge, but we do and must. God is love and hate.
To forgive is not to forget.
The Indians, Hindus, and ancients, had many gods, while the God of Abe is one god usually considered separate from us, as an idol to worship. I wouldn't' mind any of that, if the worship didn't become prejudiced and dangerous, but it does.
My god is all the parts of all that is, equally, so no idol is therefore possible.
I am human, so love, as in peace of mind, is my favorite god thing. I need not call it an idol as it is not separate from me.
I have run out of useful words, as the "awe" within me is beyond all my words.
Who can write the perfect metaphor? Not I. For now I will repeat, "I am what I am", G-AWE-D .... as YOU ....
* *
*
*
*
< ----- I want wings 
As an ex-christian, I've been there, done that. No one can prove god's existence, unless he's arrogant in his beliefs. Then anything is possible in his own mind. The bible describes a god that can't be simultaneously all powerful and loving(heaven/hell = love and hate). This version of god created hell out of cruelty-not justice. Blaming humans for his own ambivalence is insane. "The right sort of person" it takes to accept biblical christianity as real, and be "born again", is the sort of person who is condtioned by society that it is morally right, and that he will live forever no matter how bad a person he may be.
If god exists, god would not be a controlling, convoluted being wanting us to love him more than our own family.
@Annonymous;
Ah wonderful. To those who might think about reading it, the pdf looks to be nothing more than the Kalam Cosmological Argument except with a lot more needless words in it. I didn't actually read it, but considering it had the whole 'the universe began to exist therefore the universe has a cause'* BS in it, it seems to be that way.
@razorphreak;
So god will or will not condemn me to an eternity of hell, the most horrible of all tortures, for some arbitrary reason. God essentially has full rights to revoke my Divine Passport and deport me no matter how I lead my life. Right? Then what use is it to believe in him?
Furthermore, you say; "I cannot presume to know since if he is using you for his will by making you NOT believe" If that is the case, then everyone is doing god's will, how could it be any other way? If someone could conceivably NOT do god's will doesn't that make god not omnipotent? Therefore everyone is always doing god's will, so can anyone truly be called evil anymore? [I say, this is certainly a fun version of the argument from evil
]. Everyone gets into heaven then, everyone. So what is the point in having Hell? Why do we need to believe? Why did Jesus need to die if there really aren't any sins to be forgiven? Why do you even exist?
Seriously, once you start down this road everything breaks down unless you want to axe one of the Omnis. I would suggest you turn back now.
*Not that I'm saying this line of reasoning isn't valid. If the universe did begin to exist, then yes it did require a cause. It's just that the way its being used, to support the idea of a god, is of course silly.
Edit the Second: Don't we all I AM GOD AS YOU, don't we all. Though really they would just get in the way, getting stuck