Jesus got rid of my asthma (slightly more intellectual than the others) [YOU RESPOND]
Offline From: aaronfochtman@msn.com
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 4:56 AM
Subject: [General Question] Curiosity
Aaron Fochtman sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.
It's ironic that I try to contact this organization and am confronted with
tips to control my asthma symptoms. It's ironic because at the age of 14
I was diagnosed with asthma, and have suffered from it in times of
allergic response and exercise induction in the subsequent years. It's
ironic because three weeks ago, I was suddenly and abrumpty separated from
this condition at the behest of the God of all creation, through belief in
his Son, Jesus Christ.
But this is not the nature of my call,
It is the question that drives us. And the question is why. Why when
1000 experiments are performed in under conditions that are ultimately
subject to laws man has yet to even reconcile with one another, are we to
ass-ume that those tests can be counted as conclusive proof of the
non-existence of Him that it is claimed to have authority over that which
have have yet to even adequately define.
To subject Logos to logic is a metaphysical impossibility as much as it is
to ask a computer to define its programmer. The computer is only as
intelligent as its programmer has dictated and cannot define its
programmer outside of those predetermined boundaries. Likewise, as logic
was born out of the subject of the logos, you cannot either disprove the
existance of the Logos by the measures afforded in logic. The very usage
of logic, whether verbally acknowledged or not, is voluntary subjection to
the Logos; that is...that truth is universal, and that we organize truth in
accordance with that primary truth.
While this does not prove the existance of God, God is an entirely
plausible explanation to the orderliness of nature which assumed by all
scientists. While the compilation of a Universal Law of Material
Governance proves what has always been assumed--that the universe is
logical--it fails to explain WHY the universe is logical. The end result,
whether to answer this question, or the redundant probing of a
four-year-old, is the inevitable "it just is!". Then, the only
irreconcilable is--and the answer, not to mention the question--seems
absent from any other religion system I've studied--Who, or What, "just
is"...if it is the Universe, than the Universe, by all human definition is
in fact, God. But the universe has not seemed to have made the claim that
it is eternal. Not evidentially anyways...
Rather, the universe gives all evidence in support of its finite
beginning, and no existing or theoretical methods of scientific evidence
gathering support otherwise--that is, apart from the presuppostion that
the universe was not created and thus, the persevering invention of theory
that COULD support that speculation.
In the statement "I Am" made by Jesus Christ, it was clearly understood,
amid the prevailing Chaldeo-Greco-Judean culture, that he was claiming
eternality--and thus, Godhood. Since then, it remains unclaimed by any
other source to BE eternal--and to my limited understanding, that would
include all philisophical as well as religious systems--than it seems that
the burden of proof lies on us to disprove the fact that Christ is God.
On the basis of reasoning, how can it be proved that one claiming to be
the Logos...the way, the truth, and the life, is not?...by proving his way
wrong, his truth, fiction, and his life, ended. Yet no moral system seems
to determine that his way is wrong...in fact all considerably moral
characaters in human history have paled in comparison to his moral
influence. In truth, no system of reasoning has yet to universally
mandate the attention fo such a transcendant audience of humanity outside
of the use of force. And life...well, none have, as yet, produced a body.
The whole of Christianity stands on the acts and claims of Jesus Christ.
Without them, the Bible is utterly invalidated, and mankind is utterly
guiltless...yet, there seems to be no credible evidence that any of the
things Jesus said to be untrue.
So then, my dillemma lies in the correlation between my present absence of
the symptoms of asthma, and the prior belief that Jesus Christ had promised
to set me free from them. I've studied much...and debated beyond my
desire to discover truth, but for me to attempt to reconcile these
circumstance by any other measures seems just...ungrateful.
Still though...one must desire truth in greater measure than their natural
vanity desires to be considered brilliant in order to arrive at truth.
Kelly, you are quite an attractive young lady...but you've ceased being
honest with yourself. What exactly is your goal? Dig deep within
yourself before you answer that. The impulsive response is only a measure
of self propaganda that serves the identical distractive purpose as any
addiction.
Be Blessed,
Aaron
SUPPORT RRS:
I truly feel sorry for you. Being so unable to properly credit people and things. The doctors who looked at you, yourself for working to get over the asthma. You must lead a really depressing life not being able to get credit where credit is due. You have my deepest of sympathies.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
That's funny. I have asthma and prayed (when I was a Christian) that it would go away. It never did. And neither did yours. In a lot of adults asthma goes into remission for several years before reemerging again.
Prediction: A lot of double-speak with words and phrases you don't understand will make up the majority of your post. This is what you consider "your call".
I should be Jesus! Double-speak! (I sees itz) How do you manage to put two opposite things together in one sentence and think you came out with a point? If 1000 experiments are performed under laboratory conditions (which are subject to laws we ARE able to reconcile with, so much so that we have mathematical formulas where we can predict events based on these laws) why do you--to steal your completely unintelligent word use--"ass-ume" that the conclusions are based on assumption? Clearly they are based on observation. Assumption and observation are not the same thing. Perhaps you're doing a bit of projecting?
Talk about "ass-uming". Do you even know what "Logos" means? I doubt not. Especially since logos is defined as "reason". Specifically, to reason, by which one logically deduces something. In fact the modern word for logos is also logic, i.e. lego, which is derived from logos. So actually, your whole premise is wrong from the start. In order to participate in logos you are required to exercise logic.
Why are you confusing "truth" with "Logos" and using the two interchangeably. The words are the same, as is logic. Just because you cannot wrap your head around the concept of these philosophic constructs does not mean you can just invent new ways of redefining these words which have existed long before Christianity ever came about.
So far you have not even made a coherent point. Let me guess...to do so would require logic, and because your whole point is that logic doesn't exist (only God, or something...) you are making an "argument" completely void of any substance that might resemble coherency?
I imagine you double-speak as much as McCain, although that may be a stretch. You're definitely close, though.
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Please help me get my resources so I can finish my book more quickly.
My wish list.
Et suppositio nil ponit in esse.
"You act ridiculously," said Ion, "to doubt everything. For my part, I should like to ask you what you say to those who free possessed men from their terrors by exorcising the spirits so manifestly. I need not discuss this: everyone knows about the Syrian from Palestine, the adept in it, how many he takes in hand who fall down in the light of the moon and roll their eyes and fill their mouths with foam; nevertheless, he restores them to health and sends them away normal in mind, delivering them from their straits for a large fee. When he stands beside them as they lie there and asks : 'Whence came you into his body?' the patient himself is silent, but the spirit answers in Greek or in the language of whatever foreign country he comes from, telling how and whence he entered into the man; whereupon, by adjuring the spirit and if he does not obey, threatening him, he drives him out. Indeed, I actually saw one coming out, black and smoky in color." "It is nothing much," I remarked," for you, Ion, to see that kind of sight, when even the 'forms' that the father of your school, Plato, points out are plain to you, a hazy object of vision to the rest of us, whose eyes are weak." - Lucian, Lover of Lies
Honestly bro,
Orwellian coinage, web definitions and political epithets? Are you satisfied with lobbing condescending remarks and strangers interested in reasonable dialoge. Do you really want to further your position or just get bratty with the truly reasonable. I prepared some responses but they were lost to pop-up blockers and a lost internet signal.
I'll leave you with this, your rhetoric is childish, your definition of logos/logic is ignorant, and your attempt to group me with McCain only serves his agenda, not mine. Your grasp of science, theory and law, lack the most basic understanding of the principles of each and your insight into human psychology, logic, literature, politics, and history leave a great deal to be desired.
Granted, without backing these claims with evidence, I would be a hypocrite, but in truth, I have a 12 hour work day ahead of me and less than 6 hours of sleep available so I haven't got the time at present.
But if you ask, you will recieve.
But be warned. I am no slouch when it comes to research and my faith is an inescapable reality at this point. You might be best to stick to lobbing insults, if that serves your purpose.
I won't pretend to be polite. I'm tired.
Don't say it if you don't mean it.
I wrongfully believed you wanted dialogue. It seems your only true pursuit is to lob sophmorish insults on those who disagree with you. If it serves you, let it ride. If you really believe there is something out there you have yet to learn, write me back, and do be polite. I am a busy man, and that post clearly wasn't addressed to you.
I'm pretty sure I would have ignored the whole lot if the red head hadn't momentarily captured my eyes, but apparently, she only speaks on cue,
I hope you find what you are truly looking for.
Aaron
I think the above two posts were the original e-mailer.
He's not the man he wants you to think he is. Go to The Real John McCain to learn about the double talk express. View these videos about John McCain to learn about the flip-flopping double talker.
I've never understood this or the need for prayer.
When I was a child and my dad saw symptoms that I was sick he helped me. I didn't have to ask.
If my child was sick I would do the same without waiting to be asked.
Why would any loving father need their child to jump through "faith" and "asking" for help hoops before taking care of business?
If my dad was omnipotent like god he wouldn't have let me get sick in the first place so there wouldn't be any need to "save" me.
This is not an attack. I just see it as a bizarre belief system.
"...no matter how pernicious it is; the cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas." ~ Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
http://www.youtube.com/user/VETSAGAINSTMCCAIN
http://therealmccain.com/
Here's a topic you've already brought up: Human difficulty in learning to be honest w/ oneself.
The typical theist response to an alleged healing or most any other metaphysical event is to maximize all of the hits...and minimize or ignore all of the misses. You believed god healed you of Asthma.
If your Asthma symptoms had not gone away after prayer, you'd place the blame on yourself for not having enough faith or perhaps you'd place the blame on some external force (usually something negative/ambiguous/mythical like satan)
If your Asthma returns in a month you'll easily explain this misfortune away using the exact same methodology.
If you are diagnosed w/ terminal cancer one year from now, it still won't detract from your belief that "god" healed you of asthma (despite the insignificance it would now hold).
If a Doctor uses great skill or if Science (human intellect) develops some type of cure for Asthma, you will likely still credit your make-believe deity for this accomplishment.
You have accepted theism. You now have no objective basis for discerning what is true and what is not.
Why?
Because accepting theism or living by faith means that you are no longer able or capable of looking inward and learning to be honest w/ yourself. Every significant phenomena in your life comes from some external force.
Honesty w/ oneself has never been a prerequisite for faith, nor has it ever been encouraged by anyone promoting religion.
Why ?
Because it is counterproductive to faith.
So I find it funny (tragically) when any theist implores a skeptic to be honest w/ themselves (as you did w/ Kelly).
The hostility to psychoanalysis (Here's where RELIGION shows its head) has always been that man lives by lying to himself about himself.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
HAHA God gave him asthma and he doesn't care!!
He's not the man he wants you to think he is. Go to The Real John McCain to learn about the double talk express. View these videos about John McCain to learn about the flip-flopping double talker.
Theists - do they all get lessons to behave like this? They show remarkable uniformity ...
The faux-naif opener.
Don't know a word? Ah, just make one up - we theists do it all the time, you know.
Condescension. Oh, and note the use of "serve" instead of the usual "suit" in the first sentence - see? I learnt how to do that kind of thing from bible study. Use an archaic term and suddenly it sounds like I'm important. Pity it isn't the right word - but hey, I'm a theist. We can do that. If we're wrong we just brazen it out afterwards.
Condescension again, and this time laced with sexist arrogance. See what we theists have learnt from our bible?
Why not end as I began. Faux-naif is great - it really bugs the shit out of people who are stuck with being honest, and to dipsticks reading this I might even be confused with a caring guy. Go, theism! We got the best damn lies in the universe! Nuffin' sophmorish on us!
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
I don't know what is more humorous: the attempts to seem intelligent or the fact that you couldn't refute a single point I made.
----------------------------------------
Please help me get my resources so I can finish my book more quickly.
My wish list.
Et suppositio nil ponit in esse.
"You act ridiculously," said Ion, "to doubt everything. For my part, I should like to ask you what you say to those who free possessed men from their terrors by exorcising the spirits so manifestly. I need not discuss this: everyone knows about the Syrian from Palestine, the adept in it, how many he takes in hand who fall down in the light of the moon and roll their eyes and fill their mouths with foam; nevertheless, he restores them to health and sends them away normal in mind, delivering them from their straits for a large fee. When he stands beside them as they lie there and asks : 'Whence came you into his body?' the patient himself is silent, but the spirit answers in Greek or in the language of whatever foreign country he comes from, telling how and whence he entered into the man; whereupon, by adjuring the spirit and if he does not obey, threatening him, he drives him out. Indeed, I actually saw one coming out, black and smoky in color." "It is nothing much," I remarked," for you, Ion, to see that kind of sight, when even the 'forms' that the father of your school, Plato, points out are plain to you, a hazy object of vision to the rest of us, whose eyes are weak." - Lucian, Lover of Lies
No, rational investigation hasn't failed to explain why the universe is logical. Your statement is doubly inaccurate, not only is there plenty about this universe that defies logic anyway but also the consistency and constancy of relationships in the universe are well able to provide satisfactory explanations for themselves. A guiding force ontology is neither implied nor required in any compelling manner by those metaphysics that you're citing. The universe isn't fundamentally logical by any stretch of the imagination, what the course of material investigation has arrived at more essentially is that the universe is fundamentally impulsive, spontaneous and driven to diversify and spread itself along paths of least resistance. In doing so it propagates the conditions for resistance and, given only a handful of spontaneous potentials leaping together in unrestricted directions, consistent material law can quickly form itself from the restrictions that the spontenaeity of the universe places on its own elements.
Theoretically it follows that this fundamental structure fractures or filters down into component directions at the point in which a possible path or direction become entirely obstructed by the spontaneous resistance. The entirely obstructed path is the formation of another more persistent material law, a constant rule.
So with just a few dice thrown into the metaphysical air, consistent resistance becomes the norm, then constant resistance becomes the norm in a filtered space of the original universe. The consistency and constancy makes it appear logical but inherently the process reveals itself to have been no such thing at all. The origin defied logic with brazen arrogance. It threw itself every way possible and then some, and the only evident end to this urge, was the end of pure being. If logic was an intended outcome, then, necessarily, logic is the product of running in an infinity of directions at once. Does that seem logical to you?
Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist
The local church has cancelled their Nativity play owing to an inability to find three wise men or a virgin in the group.
Yes, but he never heals amputees. He must hate them. I will never love Jesus until he starts to love and heal amputees.
Stop global whining.
Seems Aaron is experiencing a little lust for Kelly. When I was a christian I was always told lust was bad.
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
Another redundant reply to redundant questions. I need to write one, to be continually ammended for such ocassions as this. ~
I preach atheism a bit different than most. I have never accepted traditional "religious" definitions, so I try to fix, alter or erradicte them.
God is a word for the gaps. My basic definitions could include: the awe, the unknown, the WTF?, the force, the all connected oneness, the everything, the eternal infinit. God is a no brainer. God of Abraham is brainless. What is God ??? Well what is not "GAWED" ! ???
Story jesus / buddha buried simple message was that we are all the same, all are god, as everything is 100% connected. That was basically it, zero dogma, zero superstition. All of the message, is about what each of us are. "I am the way and the light" means you are the way and light and are the very nature of god, as sons and daughters of the oneness or god. No master, no idol worship, as all is one.This was the dirt simple "saving" message of no dogma idol worship superstition. And story jesus said, "This is the kindom of god , heaven NOW, ye are god(s)", the "laws" of nature (god) will never pass, as they are eternal.
I love that saying, "Love the enemy", (understand the enemy, inner and outer) , and in doing so, caring story Jesus even called Peter Satan , made a scene at the temple/church, and called the religious dogmists blind hypocrites ! The message is the same to pauline christians of today.
Story Jesus (a buddha) basically said "I am god as you" !
This is why I think a better atheist approach is to not beat up on Jesus and his god concept, but instead, to make clear the rejection of Paul and all his dogmatic god concepts, as is christianity.
I suppose in this sense, using religious jargon, I am resurrecting "spiritually" the atheist jewish buddha called Jesus ! The "saving , good word" ! (smile) Go RRS.
Go science, go communication, go atheism .... evolve that simple word G-O-D ! I am an Atheist for Jesus, I AM 100% GOD .....(laughing) What else could we be? .... Sure I wish Santa Claus and loving Sky Daddys were real .... oh well , we are condemned to be god .... obviously ....
Christianity, Islam, God of Abe, is dogmatic terrorism. (smash it)
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries." ~ Carl Sagan
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel." Thomas Paine
"Nobody holds with greater contempt than I the writers, publishers, or dealers in obscene literature. One of my objections to the Bible is that it contains hundreds of grossly obscene passages not fit to be read by any decent man; thousands of passages, in my judgment, calculated to corrupt the minds of youth." Robert Ingersoll
Now some simple wisdom to the rescue,
Famous eastern philosophy fan, Alan Watts wrote: "The religion of Jesus was that he knew he was a son of God, and the phrase "son of " means "of the nature of," so that a son of God is an individual who realizes that he is, and always has been, one with God. "I and the Father are one." .......... and, "Let this mind be in you." that is to say, let the same kind of [rational] consciousness be in you that was in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ knew he was God."
"Wake up" [said a buddha] and find out eventually who you also really are [ god ]. In our culture of course, they'll say you're crazy or you're blasphemous, and they'll either put you in jail or in the nut house (which is the same thing). But if you wake up in India and tell your friends and relations, "My goodness, I've just discovered that I'm God," they'll laugh and say, "Oh, congratulations, at last you found out." ~ Alan Watts
Words from 2 "saved angels",
Carl Sagan - "Pale Blue Dot" , 3 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M
"Wisdom of the Buddha" , 8 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTsb-woP3jI
Click on the uploader name for more stuff
Buddhism is very attractive to modern man because it is made up of true statements to a large degree. It doesn't need to be a religion. It doesn't require a god. It makes no allusion to fear. And I agree (with the credits in this video), most atheists I know are very spiritual people seeking the same noble answers, not sure why they are villified; they simply stopped accepting silly answers, which is something Buddha figured out a long time ago. ~ dbanici --------
Good luck, to you confused Pauline Christian separatists idol worshiping slaves of self denial .... sincerely , You are god as I (((( and Jesus wept ... and was murdered, and the simple message of "oneness" perverted for all the ages ....
Jesus built my hot rod.
Yeah Matt, loud and proud great band "MINISTRY", smashing Churchanity of Xainity of the Anti-Christ Devil Dogs.
Gotta remember to post more of them saintly prophets,
Ministry - "Just One Fix"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2UA-7Q3ncU&feature=related
Got anymore favs ? !!! ....
you guys not figured out yet that theism ain't gonna be defeated from Matt's bedroom?
Good track though.
I'll counter with a Billy Connolly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmpRQLaxF60
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Jesus healed me of my asthma as well. Last night before I went to bed I prayed to Jesus to heal me...and then I woke up in the morning without any lungs !!!
Praise Him !!!
COGITO ERGO DOLEO
Rest in peace HeyZeusCreaseToe
That deserves another Connolly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv3oY5tpSb4
Jesus would be dead within ten seconds in Glasgow
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Just for some more laughs, here's a short one on misinterpreting ,
masturbation? - 38 sec.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns9_Y6bGci4&feature=related
Ilusión Óptica - 10 sec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6V3vEI-_yg&NR=1
How does Kelly's looks have anything to do with asthma?
I admit, when I see a hot woman I get short of breath, sometimes. But I don't default to Thor being the cause of my boner anymore than Isis or Allah. Does Jesus give you a woody at the sight of Kelly? OR are you simply attracted to her?
Kelly has nothing to do with your asthma or your attraction to her. I think someone is simply fishing for attention.
Deities do not follow a "method" because imagination is a whim, not a method.
nuff said...
quit reaching and come up with a rational response
dude, that's just pathetic.
You'll thrash honesty as quickly as you will turn a blind eye to reason.
MAKE SURE TO USE EXCLMATION POINTS!!!! AND HAHA's!!! IT ADDS CREDIBILITY TO YOUR RHETORIC....AND LOOK FOR SPELLING ERRORS FROM YOUR OPPONENTS BECAUSE ITS EASIER THAN CONSIDERING THEIR OPINION. (it was sarcasm if you missed that)
"the course of material investigation has arrived at more essentially is that the universe is fundamentally impulsive, spontaneous and driven to diversify and spread itself along paths of least resistance"
Admittedly, I have not studied this level of chaos theory (if that's what this is) and do not claim to be an expert on the metter, but the very terms, "fundamentally, constant, and driven" all suggest a governing force. It suggest that there is a predetermined behavior, even if that predetermined behavior is "irrational". Kind of like how the decimal for pi is an "irrattional" number and yet, pi is always pi and it is a logical link to anything circular.
Just because we lack the method or language to adequately define something does not make it random. In fact, no one has ever proven random anything. Nor will they, because randomness can only be evaluated in the scope of eternity. We lack the lenses. Just becuase a pattern has never repeated itself does not suggest it never will, it very well could determine that the whole thing being evaluated is simply too large for our current scope of understanding--much like thinking the Sun revolved around the earth until our scope of evaluation proved otherwise. Unfortunately, it would take a source free from the constructs of space-time to render an evaluation of the manner after the whole of space time consistently functions.
You seem very intelligent but I would shy away from things you seem to be so sure of. Save the ridicule for the faithful. Science history has proven to our knowledge most of all that the universe consists of constants and our understanding is the only thing evolving. But history also teaches us this.
The Greeks, renowned for their wisdom and inquistion, sought to translate and distribute the Old Testement (Septuagint) on the basis that, (at the time of Ptolemy) the scriptures had accruately predicted the rise and fall of the last three empires, with excruciating detail as to nations, kings, and political intrigues and war. Subseqently to Ptolemy, the scriptures predicted their contentions with the Seleucids with and accuracy that cannot be attributed to the vagueness of the greek oracles (prophetic equivalents) and thus, it was beleived that this book had some attachment to the eternal heavens, where past present and future remained as affixed as a 2 dimensional drawing in a 3 dimensional world.
I don't pretend to know, only to believe. But I am not here to bash the inquisitive, only to attempt to bring humility to the proud.