Jesus got rid of my asthma (slightly more intellectual than the others) [YOU RESPOND]

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Jesus got rid of my asthma (slightly more intellectual than the others) [YOU RESPOND]

From: aaronfochtman@msn.com
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 4:56 AM
Subject: [General Question] Curiosity

 

Aaron Fochtman sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

It's ironic that I try to contact this organization and am confronted with
tips to control my asthma symptoms.  It's ironic because at the age of 14
I was diagnosed with asthma, and have suffered from it in times of
allergic response and exercise induction in the subsequent years.  It's
ironic because three weeks ago, I was suddenly and abrumpty separated from
this condition at the behest of the God of all creation, through belief in
his Son, Jesus Christ.

But this is not the nature of my call,

It is the question that drives us.  And the question is why.  Why when
1000 experiments are performed in under conditions that are ultimately
subject to laws man has yet to even reconcile with one another, are we to
ass-ume that those tests can be counted as conclusive proof of the
non-existence of Him that it is claimed to have authority over that which
have have yet to even adequately define.

To subject Logos to logic is a metaphysical impossibility as much as it is
to ask a computer to define its programmer.  The computer is only as
intelligent as its programmer has dictated and cannot define its
programmer outside of those predetermined boundaries.  Likewise, as logic
was born out of the subject of the logos, you cannot either disprove the
existance of the Logos by the measures afforded in logic.  The very usage
of logic, whether verbally acknowledged or not, is voluntary subjection to
the Logos; that is...that truth is universal, and that we organize truth in
accordance with that primary truth.

While this does not prove the existance of God, God is an entirely
plausible explanation to the orderliness of nature which assumed by all
scientists.  While the compilation of a Universal Law of Material
Governance proves what has always been assumed--that the universe is
logical--it fails to explain WHY the universe is logical.  The end result,
whether to answer this question, or the redundant probing of a
four-year-old, is the inevitable "it just is!".  Then, the only
irreconcilable is--and the answer, not to mention the question--seems
absent from any other religion system I've studied--Who, or What, "just
is"...if it is the Universe, than the Universe, by all human definition is
in fact, God.  But the universe has not seemed to have made the claim that
it is eternal. Not evidentially anyways...
Rather, the universe gives all evidence in support of its finite
beginning, and no existing or theoretical methods of scientific evidence
gathering support otherwise--that is, apart from the presuppostion that
the universe was not created and thus, the persevering invention of theory
that COULD support that speculation.

In the statement "I Am"  made by Jesus Christ, it was clearly understood,
amid the prevailing Chaldeo-Greco-Judean culture, that he was claiming
eternality--and thus, Godhood.  Since then, it remains unclaimed by any
other source to BE eternal--and to my limited understanding, that would
include all philisophical as well as religious systems--than it seems that
the burden of proof lies on us to disprove the fact that Christ is God.

On the basis of reasoning, how can it be proved that one claiming to be
the Logos...the way, the truth, and the life, is not?...by proving his way
wrong, his truth, fiction, and his life, ended.  Yet no moral system seems
to determine that his way is wrong...in fact all considerably moral
characaters in human history have paled in comparison to his moral
influence.  In truth, no system of reasoning has yet to universally
mandate the attention fo such a transcendant audience of humanity outside
of the use of force.  And life...well, none have, as yet, produced a body.
 The whole of Christianity stands on the acts and claims of Jesus Christ. 
Without them, the Bible is utterly invalidated, and mankind is utterly
guiltless...yet, there seems to be no credible evidence that any of the
things Jesus said to be untrue.

So then, my dillemma lies in the correlation between my present absence of
the symptoms of asthma, and the prior belief that Jesus Christ had promised
to set me free from them.   I've studied much...and debated beyond my
desire to discover truth, but for me to attempt to reconcile these
circumstance by any other measures seems just...ungrateful.

Still though...one must desire truth in greater measure than their natural
vanity desires to be considered brilliant in order to arrive at truth.

Kelly, you are quite an attractive young lady...but you've ceased being
honest with yourself.  What exactly is your goal?  Dig deep within
yourself before you answer that.  The impulsive response is only a measure
of self propaganda that serves the identical distractive purpose as any
addiction.

Be Blessed,

Aaron

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I truly feel sorry for

I truly feel sorry for you.  Being so unable to properly credit people and things.  The doctors who looked at you, yourself for working to get over the asthma.  You must lead a really depressing life not being able to get credit where credit is due.  You have my deepest of sympathies.

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RationalResponseSquad

RationalResponseSquad wrote:

From: aaronfochtman@msn.com
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 4:56 AM
Subject: [General Question] Curiosity

 

Aaron Fochtman sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

It's ironic that I try to contact this organization and am confronted with
tips to control my asthma symptoms.  It's ironic because at the age of 14
I was diagnosed with asthma, and have suffered from it in times of
allergic response and exercise induction in the subsequent years.  It's
ironic because three weeks ago, I was suddenly and abrumpty separated from
this condition at the behest of the God of all creation, through belief in
his Son, Jesus Christ.

That's funny.  I have asthma and prayed (when I was a Christian) that it would go away.  It never did.  And neither did yours.  In a lot of adults asthma goes into remission for several years before reemerging again. 

Quote:
But this is not the nature of my call,

Prediction: A lot of double-speak with words and phrases you don't understand will make up the majority of your post. This is what you consider "your call".

Quote:
It is the question that drives us.  And the question is why.  Why when
1000 experiments are performed in under conditions that are ultimately
subject to laws man has yet to even reconcile with one another, are we to
ass-ume that those tests can be counted as conclusive proof of the
non-existence of Him that it is claimed to have authority over that which
have have yet to even adequately define.

I should be Jesus!  Double-speak!  (I sees itz)  How do you manage to put two opposite things together in one sentence and think you came out with a point?  If 1000 experiments are performed under laboratory conditions (which are subject to laws we ARE able to reconcile with, so much so that we have mathematical formulas where we can predict events based on these laws) why do you--to steal your completely unintelligent word use--"ass-ume" that the conclusions are based on assumption?  Clearly they are based on observation.  Assumption and observation are not the same thing.  Perhaps you're doing a bit of projecting? 

Quote:
To subject Logos to logic is a metaphysical impossibility as much as it is
to ask a computer to define its programmer.

Talk about "ass-uming".  Do you even know what "Logos" means?  I doubt not.  Especially since logos is defined as "reason".   Specifically, to reason, by which one logically deduces something.  In fact the modern word for logos is also logic, i.e. lego, which is derived from logos.  So actually, your whole premise is wrong from the start.  In order to participate in logos you are required to exercise logic.

Quote:
  The computer is only as
intelligent as its programmer has dictated and cannot define its
programmer outside of those predetermined boundaries.  Likewise, as logic
was born out of the subject of the logos, you cannot either disprove the
existance of the Logos by the measures afforded in logic.  The very usage
of logic, whether verbally acknowledged or not, is voluntary subjection to
the Logos; that is...that truth is universal, and that we organize truth in
accordance with that primary truth.

Why are you confusing "truth" with "Logos" and using the two interchangeably.  The words are the same, as is logic.  Just because you cannot wrap your head around the concept of these philosophic constructs does not mean you can just invent new ways of redefining these words which have existed long before Christianity ever came about. 

Quote:
While this does not prove the existance of God,

So far you have not even made a coherent point.  Let me guess...to do so would require logic, and because your whole point is that logic doesn't exist (only God, or something...) you are making an "argument" completely void of any substance that might resemble coherency?

I imagine you double-speak as much as McCain, although that may be a stretch.  You're definitely close, though.

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Do you really want me to respond to that?

Honestly bro,

Orwellian coinage, web definitions and political epithets?  Are you satisfied with lobbing condescending remarks and strangers interested in reasonable dialoge.  Do you really want to further your position or just get bratty with the truly reasonable.  I prepared some responses but they were lost to pop-up blockers and a lost internet signal.

I'll leave you with this, your rhetoric is childish, your definition of logos/logic is ignorant, and your attempt to group me with McCain only serves his agenda, not mine.  Your grasp of science, theory and law, lack the most basic understanding of the principles of each and your insight into human psychology, logic, literature, politics, and history leave a great deal to be desired.

 

Granted, without backing these claims with evidence, I would be a hypocrite, but in truth, I have a 12 hour work day ahead of me and less than 6 hours of sleep available so I haven't got the time at present.

But if you ask, you will recieve.

But be warned.  I am no slouch when it comes to research and my faith is an inescapable reality at this point.  You might be best to stick to lobbing insults, if that serves your purpose.

I won't pretend to be polite.  I'm tired.

Don't say it if you don't mean it.


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You must feel brilliant in there

I wrongfully believed you wanted dialogue.  It seems your only true pursuit is to lob sophmorish insults on those who disagree with you.  If it serves you, let it ride.  If you really believe there is something out there you have yet to learn, write me back, and do be polite.  I am a busy man, and that post clearly wasn't addressed to you.

 

I'm pretty sure I would have ignored the whole lot if the red head hadn't momentarily captured my eyes, but apparently, she only speaks on cue,

 

I hope you find what you are truly looking for.

 

Aaron


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I think the above two posts

I think the above two posts were the original e-mailer.

 

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fochtmaa wrote:But if you

fochtmaa wrote:

But if you ask, you will recieve.

 

I've never understood this or the need for prayer.

When I was a child and my dad saw symptoms that I was sick he helped me. I didn't have to ask.

If my child was sick I would do the same without waiting to be asked.

Why would any loving father need their child to jump through "faith" and "asking" for help hoops before taking care of business?

If my dad was omnipotent like god he wouldn't have let me get sick in the first place so there wouldn't be any need to "save" me.

 

This is not an attack. I just see it as a bizarre belief system.

 


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Quote:So then, my dillemma

Quote:
So then, my dillemma lies in the correlation between my present absence of the symptoms of asthma, and the prior belief that Jesus Christ had promised to set me free from them.

Here's a topic you've already brought up: Human difficulty in learning to be honest w/ oneself. 

The typical theist response to an alleged healing or most any other metaphysical event is to maximize all of the hits...and minimize or ignore all of the misses.  You believed god healed you of Asthma.

If your Asthma symptoms had not gone away after prayer, you'd place the blame on yourself for not having enough faith or perhaps you'd place the blame on some external force (usually something negative/ambiguous/mythical like satan)

If your Asthma returns in a month you'll easily explain this misfortune away using the exact same methodology.

If you are diagnosed w/ terminal cancer one year from now, it still won't detract from your belief that "god" healed you of asthma (despite the insignificance it would now hold).

If a Doctor uses great skill or if Science (human intellect) develops some type of cure for Asthma, you will likely still credit your make-believe deity for this accomplishment.

You have accepted theism.  You now have no objective basis for discerning what is true and what is not.

Why? 

Because accepting theism or living by faith means that you are no longer able or capable of looking inward and learning to be honest w/ yourself.  Every significant phenomena in your life comes from some external force.

Honesty w/ oneself has never been a prerequisite for faith, nor has it ever been encouraged by anyone promoting religion.

Why ?

Because it is counterproductive to faith.

So I find it funny (tragically) when any theist implores a skeptic to be honest w/ themselves (as you did w/ Kelly).

The hostility to psychoanalysis (Here's where RELIGION shows its head) has always been that man lives by lying to himself about himself. 

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


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HAHA God gave him asthma and

HAHA God gave him asthma and he doesn't care!! 

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Theists - do they all get

Theists - do they all get lessons to behave like this? They show remarkable uniformity ...

 

Quote:

I wrongfully believed you wanted dialogue. 

 

The faux-naif opener.

 

Quote:

It seems your only true pursuit is to lob sophmorish insults on those who disagree with you. 

 

Don't know a word? Ah, just make one up - we theists do it all the time, you know.

 

Quote:

If it serves you, let it ride.  If you really believe there is something out there you have yet to learn, write me back, and do be polite.  I am a busy man, and that post clearly wasn't addressed to you.

 

Condescension. Oh, and note the use of "serve" instead of the usual "suit" in the first sentence - see? I learnt how to do that kind of thing from bible study. Use an archaic term and suddenly it sounds like I'm important. Pity it isn't the right word - but hey, I'm a theist. We can do that. If we're wrong we just brazen it out afterwards.

 

Quote:
 

I'm pretty sure I would have ignored the whole lot if the red head hadn't momentarily captured my eyes, but apparently, she only speaks on cue,

 

Condescension again, and this time laced with sexist arrogance. See what we theists have learnt from our bible?

 

Quote:

I hope you find what you are truly looking for.

 

Why not end as I began. Faux-naif is great - it really bugs the shit out of people who are stuck with being honest, and to dipsticks reading this I might even be confused with a caring guy. Go, theism! We got the best damn lies in the universe! Nuffin' sophmorish on us!

 

 

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fochtmaa wrote:Honestly

fochtmaa wrote:

Honestly bro,

Orwellian coinage, web definitions and political epithets?  Are you satisfied with lobbing condescending remarks and strangers interested in reasonable dialoge.  Do you really want to further your position or just get bratty with the truly reasonable.  I prepared some responses but they were lost to pop-up blockers and a lost internet signal.

I'll leave you with this, your rhetoric is childish, your definition of logos/logic is ignorant, and your attempt to group me with McCain only serves his agenda, not mine.  Your grasp of science, theory and law, lack the most basic understanding of the principles of each and your insight into human psychology, logic, literature, politics, and history leave a great deal to be desired.

 

Granted, without backing these claims with evidence, I would be a hypocrite, but in truth, I have a 12 hour work day ahead of me and less than 6 hours of sleep available so I haven't got the time at present.

But if you ask, you will recieve.

But be warned.  I am no slouch when it comes to research and my faith is an inescapable reality at this point.  You might be best to stick to lobbing insults, if that serves your purpose.

I won't pretend to be polite.  I'm tired.

Don't say it if you don't mean it.

I don't know what is more humorous: the attempts to seem intelligent or the fact that you couldn't refute a single point I made.

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Aaron Fochtman wrote:While

Aaron Fochtman wrote:


While this does not prove the existance of God, God is an entirely
plausible explanation to the orderliness of nature which assumed by all
scientists.  While the compilation of a Universal Law of Material
Governance proves what has always been assumed--that the universe is
logical--it fails to explain WHY the universe is logical. 

No, rational investigation hasn't failed to explain why the universe is logical. Your statement is doubly inaccurate, not only is there plenty about this universe that defies logic anyway but also the consistency and constancy of relationships in the universe are well able to provide satisfactory explanations for themselves. A guiding force ontology is neither implied nor required in any compelling manner by those metaphysics that you're citing.  The universe isn't fundamentally logical by any stretch of the imagination, what the course of material investigation has arrived at more essentially is that the universe is fundamentally impulsive, spontaneous and driven to diversify and spread itself along paths of least resistance. In doing so it propagates the conditions for resistance and, given only a handful of spontaneous potentials leaping together in unrestricted directions, consistent material law can quickly form itself from the restrictions that the spontenaeity of the universe places on its own elements.

Theoretically it follows that this fundamental structure fractures or filters down into component directions at the point in which a possible path or direction become entirely obstructed by the spontaneous resistance. The entirely obstructed path is the formation of another more persistent material law, a constant rule.

So with just a few dice thrown into the metaphysical air, consistent resistance becomes the norm, then constant resistance becomes the norm in a filtered space of the original universe. The consistency and constancy makes it appear logical but inherently the process reveals itself to have been no such thing at all. The origin defied logic with brazen arrogance. It threw itself every way possible and then some, and the only evident end to this urge, was the end of pure being. If logic was an intended outcome, then, necessarily, logic is the product of running in an infinity of directions at once. Does that seem logical to you?

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aaronfochtman wrote:Jesus

aaronfochtman wrote:

Jesus got rid of my asthma

 

Yes, but he never heals amputees. He must hate them. I will never love Jesus until he starts to love and heal amputees.

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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RationalResponseSquad

RationalResponseSquad wrote:

From: aaronfochtman@msn.com
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 4:56 AM
Subject: [General Question] Curiosity

 

Aaron Fochtman sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.


Kelly, you are quite an attractive young lady...but you've ceased being
honest with yourself.  What exactly is your goal?  Dig deep within
yourself before you answer that.  The impulsive response is only a measure
of self propaganda that serves the identical distractive purpose as any
addiction.

Be Blessed,

Aaron

Seems Aaron is experiencing a little lust for Kelly. When I was a christian I was always told lust was bad.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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Another redundant reply to

Another redundant reply to redundant questions. I need to write one, to be continually ammended for such ocassions as this. ~

I preach atheism a bit different than most. I have never accepted traditional  "religious" definitions, so I try to fix, alter or erradicte them.   

God is a word for the gaps. My basic definitions could include: the awe, the unknown, the WTF?, the force, the all connected oneness, the everything,  the eternal infinit. God is a no brainer. God of Abraham is brainless. What is God ??? Well what is not "GAWED" ! ???  

Story jesus / buddha buried simple message was that we are all the same, all are god, as everything is 100% connected.  That was basically it, zero dogma, zero superstition. All of the message, is about what each of us are. "I am the way and the light" means you are the way and light and are the very nature of god, as sons and daughters of the oneness or god. No master, no idol worship, as all is one.This was the dirt simple "saving" message of no dogma idol worship superstition. And story jesus said, "This is the kindom of god , heaven NOW, ye are god(s)", the "laws" of nature (god) will never pass, as they are eternal.

I love that saying, "Love the enemy", (understand the enemy, inner and outer) , and in doing so, caring story Jesus even called Peter Satan , made a scene at the temple/church, and called the religious dogmists blind hypocrites ! The message is the same to pauline christians of today.

   Story Jesus (a buddha) basically said "I am god as you" !

This is why I think a better atheist approach is to not beat up on Jesus and his god concept, but instead, to make clear the rejection of Paul and all his dogmatic god concepts, as is christianity.

I suppose in this sense, using religious jargon, I am resurrecting "spiritually" the atheist jewish buddha called Jesus ! The "saving , good word" ! (smile)  Go RRS.

Go science, go communication, go atheism .... evolve that simple word G-O-D !  I am an Atheist for Jesus,  I AM 100% GOD .....(laughing)  What else could we be? .... Sure I wish Santa Claus and loving Sky Daddys were real .... oh well , we are condemned to be god .... obviously ....

Christianity, Islam, God of Abe, is dogmatic terrorism. (smash it)

"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."  ~ Carl Sagan

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel." Thomas Paine

"Nobody holds with greater contempt than I the writers, publishers, or dealers in obscene literature. One of my objections to the Bible is that it contains hundreds of grossly obscene passages not fit to be read by any decent man; thousands of passages, in my judgment, calculated to corrupt the minds of youth." Robert Ingersoll

Now some simple wisdom to the rescue,

Famous eastern philosophy fan, Alan Watts wrote: "The religion of Jesus was that he knew he was a son of God, and the phrase "son of " means "of the nature of," so that a son of God is an individual who realizes that he is, and always has been, one with God. "I and the Father are one." .......... and,  "Let this mind be in you." that is to say, let the same kind of [rational] consciousness be in you that was in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ knew he was God."

"Wake up" [said a buddha] and find out eventually who you also really are [ god ]. In our culture of course, they'll say you're crazy or you're blasphemous, and they'll either put you in jail or in the nut house (which is the same thing). But if you wake up in India and tell your friends and relations, "My goodness, I've just discovered that I'm God," they'll laugh and say, "Oh, congratulations, at last you found out." ~ Alan Watts

Words from 2 "saved angels",


Carl Sagan - "Pale Blue Dot" , 3 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M


"Wisdom of the Buddha" , 8 min

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTsb-woP3jI

                                     
Click on the uploader name for more stuff
Buddhism is very attractive to modern man because it is made up of true statements to a large degree. It doesn't need to be a religion. It doesn't require a god. It makes no allusion to fear. And I agree (with the credits in this video), most atheists I know are very spiritual people seeking the same noble answers, not sure why they are villified; they simply stopped accepting silly answers, which is something Buddha figured out a long time ago. ~ dbanici  --------

Good luck, to you confused Pauline Christian separatists idol worshiping slaves of self denial  .... sincerely ,  You are god as I  ((((  and Jesus wept ... and was murdered, and the simple message of "oneness" perverted for all the ages ....    



 

 


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Jesus built my hot

Jesus built my hot rod.

 

 

 


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Yeah Matt, loud and proud

Yeah Matt, loud and proud great band "MINISTRY", smashing Churchanity of Xainity of the Anti-Christ Devil Dogs. 

Gotta remember to post more of them saintly prophets,

Ministry - "Just One Fix"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2UA-7Q3ncU&feature=related

Got anymore favs ? !!! ....


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you guys not figured out yet

you guys not figured out yet that theism ain't gonna be defeated from Matt's bedroom?

 

Good track though.

 

I'll counter with a Billy Connolly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmpRQLaxF60

 

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Jesus healed me of my asthma

Jesus healed me of my asthma as well.  Last night before I went to bed I prayed to Jesus to heal me...and then I woke up in the morning without any lungs !!! 

Praise Him !!!

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

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That deserves another

That deserves another Connolly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv3oY5tpSb4

 

Jesus would be dead within ten seconds in Glasgow

 

I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy


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Just for some more laughs,

Just for some more laughs, here's a short one on misinterpreting ,

masturbation? - 38 sec.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns9_Y6bGci4&feature=related

Ilusión Óptica - 10 sec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6V3vEI-_yg&NR=1


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How does Kelly's looks have

How does Kelly's looks have anything to do with asthma?

I admit, when I see a hot woman I get short of breath, sometimes. But I don't default to  Thor being the cause of my boner anymore than Isis or Allah. Does Jesus give you a woody at the sight of Kelly? OR are you simply attracted to her?

Kelly has nothing to do with your asthma or your attraction to her. I think someone is simply fishing for attention.

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Physical Attraction is not lust oh rational one

nuff said...

quit reaching and come up with a rational response

dude, that's just pathetic.

You'll thrash honesty as quickly as you will turn a blind eye to reason.

MAKE SURE TO USE EXCLMATION POINTS!!!! AND HAHA's!!! IT ADDS CREDIBILITY TO YOUR RHETORIC....AND LOOK FOR SPELLING ERRORS FROM YOUR OPPONENTS BECAUSE ITS EASIER THAN CONSIDERING THEIR OPINION.  (it was sarcasm if you missed that)


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I must disagree

"the course of material investigation has arrived at more essentially is that the universe is fundamentally impulsive, spontaneous and driven to diversify and spread itself along paths of least resistance"

 

Admittedly, I have not studied this level of chaos theory (if that's what this is) and do not claim to be an expert on the metter, but the very terms, "fundamentally, constant, and driven" all suggest a governing force.  It suggest that there is a predetermined behavior, even if that predetermined behavior is "irrational".  Kind of like how the decimal for pi is an "irrattional" number and yet, pi is always pi and it is a logical link to anything circular. 

Just because we lack the method or language to adequately define something does not make it random.  In fact, no one has ever proven random anything.  Nor will they, because randomness can only be evaluated in the scope of eternity.  We lack the lenses.  Just becuase a pattern has never repeated itself does not suggest it never will, it very well could determine that the whole thing being evaluated is simply too large for our current scope of understanding--much like thinking the Sun revolved around the earth until our scope of evaluation proved otherwise.  Unfortunately, it would take a source free from the constructs of space-time to render an evaluation of the manner after the whole of space time consistently functions.

You seem very intelligent but I would shy away from things you seem to be so sure of.  Save the ridicule for the faithful.  Science history has proven to our knowledge most of all that the universe consists of constants and our understanding is the only thing evolving.  But history also teaches us this.

The Greeks, renowned for their wisdom and inquistion, sought to translate and distribute the Old Testement (Septuagint) on the basis that, (at the time of Ptolemy) the scriptures had accruately predicted the rise and fall of the last three empires, with excruciating detail as to nations, kings, and political intrigues and war.  Subseqently to Ptolemy, the scriptures predicted their contentions with the Seleucids with and accuracy that cannot be attributed to the vagueness of the greek oracles (prophetic equivalents) and thus, it was beleived that this book had some attachment to the eternal heavens, where past present and future remained as affixed as a 2 dimensional drawing in a 3 dimensional world.

I don't pretend to know, only to believe.  But I am not here to bash the inquisitive, only to attempt to bring humility to the proud.

 


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Sophmorish- (adj.) Sophisticated-Moron-Like, made up word.

People coin words all the time.  It's called language.  It did not arrive on a sacred scroll form the God's (as far as I know)

Get the point...or elude it with linguistic, grammatical, and psychological nit-picking.  It's your choice.  But are you willing to be confronted with an opinion not your own without reacting to it.

I thought rational people ask questions?  Do you people have any for me or do you just want to psychoanalyse my choice of words.  I think you have a buddy on board that frown psychoanalysis.


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Wisdom to the Wise

You nikimoto have shown wisdom:

 

You presented a point of veiw, claimed not to understand a thing, and asked a question.  You are unique to this board and I will not pretend to have an answer for you.  I question many of the same things; almost daily, but I take rest in the evidence of God's love in the overarching testimony of his Word and the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 

 

I wish I had an answer for you directly to your question but I feel the only one would come from arrogance.   So I will leave you with something someone once told me.

 

"I don't know the answer to your questions and I don't think you're wrong for having them, but I know God loves you and he will show you if you trust Him."

 

I trusted Him, and he shows me.

 

I hope you arrive at the same, but in the mean time, I appreciate your honesty and civility.

 

I truly hope you are blessed

 

 Mt 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

 


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Ok...now for you.

I couldn't refute you hmmm....

 

I take it my apologies that I accidentally erased my response and that I had to go to sleep was code for me saying "you're too smart for me". 

 

You shouldn't question the honesty of someone who has given no indication as to their dishonesty.  Likewise...I need to visit my dying grandmother in the next two hours (which is why I took the day off) and I should expect that if I am unable to finish my response, you will not be so eager as to claim my concession.

 

Shall we.  (and please have all your litttle minions pay attention, they can jib-jab as they please, but make sure they finish reading the whole thing before they jump to conclusions.  It works with th Bible too.)

 

As to the Logos:  I would hope you were familiar with Heraclitis and his definition of Logos since he is the one that coined the word.  Logos is not logic but rather logic was born from the idea of the Logos.  Logos is th ultimate truth that could be as adequately defined as the statement "Truth is" or as Jesus claimed..."I AM".  Logic is the process of determining patterns along the pretension: "Logos dictates that patterns exist."

 

i.e.  1+1 = 2  or a+b=c   It doesn't matter what you choose on either side of the eqation because you have to first except that the two sides of the eqation are in fact eqaul in order to solve the eqation.  If logic were the process in solving the eqation, i.e.  (a+1=2; a=1) it have to first be believed that = really means that the figures on either sides of this sign have the same value. 

Now this is simple with mathematics because we created (or coined) the numerical language and the mathematical signs (=, -, = etcEye-wink  But conceptual understanding of math was brought about by innate understandings about the universe that we live in; that it is in fact ordered, consistents, and knowable.

these innate beliefs in the orderliness of the universe can be evidenced by infant behavior studies as it is evidenced that babies within the first few months of birth learn to concede to gravitaional forces and other forces of motion, in other words, their bodies, and their intellects will conform to the presence of these, even to the point that certain illusionary presentations cause these infants great distress as they are unable to reckon thier happenings with their innate concession to the orderliness of the universe.  All infants have this ability, which is why they are able to learn to walk, learn language, and adapt to their surrounding circumstances.  If they had any predispostion towards randomness, they would not equate that consistent sounds would result in consistent results (language) and theat consistent physical sensations wouls result in relative results.  (for instance, a child who has never been punched in the face will flinch because they are expections the laws of motion to be carried out in relation to what they have already experienced by sight.  All these suggest a desgin that we are predisposed to believe in logical processes indicating that we beleive in an ever prestent Logos dictating them.  This is important becuase 1) it suggeste that Newton's "Tabula Rasa" failed to compensate for the inheirent logic engine of all human beings, and 2) Jesus was referred to as the Logos (or the Word)

Logos is a foundational truth, unknowable but inheirently acknowleged, logic is a process based on that presupposition.  (smart ass)

 

Now, if the four forces (general relativity, electro-magnetism, strong and weak anatomic) can be accepted as laws, they can only be accepted on the bais that there is an overarching "universal law" that dictates this for this and that for that.  This presusmes a physical Logos in the belief that this universal law (sought after in string theory or M-theory), exists without anyone having ever confirmed its existance.  (that is called faith)

A christians faith that the orderliness of the universe suggests a God is no different than an atheiests faith that the orderliness of the universe suggests a "universal law".  Christians simply conced that "because God said so" is the universal law.  i.e. "Let there be light, and there was light"

The belief in consitent truth (or the Logos) is a fundamental necessity for scientific investigation and of any logical dialogue.  It is a manner of honesty to admit that that is a subject taken on faith and that that faith is the construct on which reason lies.  To say that, I believe in logic because everything I have expereinced and studies suggests that the universe is logical is a misnomer becuase one must first believe in a primary fundmental truth against which to evaluate any subsequent truth.

Consequently, discoveries made by many of the scientists upon which you take your faith we're themselves believers in God, i.e Newton, and Einstiein.  I don't suppose you consider yourself more disposed to rationality and science than they were?

My point is, while you (whether you acknowledge it verbally or not) faithfully adhere to the belief that "truth is"  which is presuppositional to beliveing that the universe is logical, that foundation that "truth is" is your god.  If you refuse to acknowledge that as your foundational belief and choose to settle with "I think, therefore, I am" and select yourself as the foundational source of your understanding, you must first believe that you are 1)honest, 2)without bias 3)without selfish-motive, and 4) inerrant. 

I assume your not so arrogant to beleive all of this, so I suppose you place these attributes on the universe.  Well, I place those attribute on Jesus who 1) cannot lie 2) is no repsecter of persons 3) is love (that is the opposite of selfish) and 4) knows all.

If you choose to put these fundamental trusts in the universe, you must understand that the universe has a beginning that both Christians and scientists can agree on, and it has limitations, whether legal limitiations to its behavior, or dimensional limitations to its size.  You put your hope is something that is too small to trust with everything.

 

If you put your hope in yourself, you put your trust in something much smaller.

 

And if you choose to disown God because he does not concede to your every demand, perhaps you should decide which one of you is God before your next prayer...if you would be so humble.

 

Now if you excuse me, my grandmother is awaiting my visit.

 

If you are any manner of arbitrator on this board, try to factor out those responses that serve no purpose.  If you believe so highly in reason, than serve reason and do not post the comments of the utterly foolish.  And take a cue from niktio...ask a question, and talk to others in the manner of respect that you would like to recieve, then you might actually have a forum for reason, not a faith-bashing platform.  you can get that on You-Tube.

 

 

 


AaronMFochtman (not verified)
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Shameful

Without recognizing Christ's singular divinity, you must not recognizing how you morally pale in comparison to Him.  But then, recognizing yourself as God does conveniently eliminate the problem of sin doesn't it.

 

Circular reasoning to the rescue.

 

Read Romans....And then the sermon on the mount.  Be confronted with your own conscience....and the debt you owe.

 

Deluding yourself into thinking you are God might adequately sedate you throughout this lifetime, but it will do little to diffuse the light of His coming upon your inescapable reconcilitiation with the truth that is Him.

 

Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess.  Either with love in you heart or a foot on the back of your neck.  You choose.


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HEY AaronMFochtman, "get

HEY AaronMFochtman, "get behind me SATAN" , you idol worshiper. Show me your idol. ???????

YOU are the ENEMY to love , as to HEAL .... say some more, so I may help you AWAKEN to what YOU are .... I love you, but you have been fooled.

Do not confuse LOVE with idol worship, my friend. "Sermon on the mount".... I like it very much. Me and Jesus are ONE ! We are GOD, as YOU !

NO MASTER, NO IDOL before us .....

           

 

 


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AaronMFochtman wrote:Every

AaronMFochtman wrote:

Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess.  Either with love in you heart or a foot on the back of your neck.  You choose.

You got me, Aaron...  I find myself incapable of even seeing that a choice exists between those mutually exclusive conditions.

Here's a deal: you explain how those conditions can be genuinely said to co-exist in the presence of each other, while at the same time maintaining rationally and convincingly that your God is not an insane, authoritarian despot, and I'll use that clarification to base my choice upon.

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Odd isn't it

How people can do good things without the need of a god, how people can help others for the sake of helping others, to be good towards others simply because it is the proper thing to do, to help the needy without the threat of god or hell. Why is it that this is the best that you have? Sin is simply a transgression against god, however god is not moral at all, you delude yourself that a deity that kills people for mere insults, 42 children killed because they insulted a bald man....moral god eh? really moral here. Or kills the children of Job in order to prove Job's faith....again moral god here. Yes we pale in god's morality....wait can't sin against a deity that doesn't exist. Can't be less moral than a chid killer...well only if I kill children, but then again why would I want to be in the same moral class of a child killer?


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AaronMFochtman wrote:Every


AaronMFochtman wrote:

Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess.  Either with love in you heart or a foot on the back of your neck.  You choose.

Yet christians tout free will as the greatest gift god gave us. How anyone can not be disgusted by a god that will force people to serve him is beyond me. You have admitted we have no free will, god will just make us do what he wants. Sounds more like a dictator than loving father.


 

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Kelly = asthma

Brian37 wrote:

How does Kelly's looks have anything to do with asthma?

I admit, when I see a hot woman I get short of breath, sometimes. But I don't default to  Thor being the cause of my boner anymore than Isis or Allah. Does Jesus give you a woody at the sight of Kelly? OR are you simply attracted to her?

Kelly has nothing to do with your asthma or your attraction to her. I think someone is simply fishing for attention.

 

    Some say she, Kelly just like asthma ,takes your breath away.  But the men are the real eye candy here.


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AaronMFochtman wrote:Without

AaronMFochtman wrote:

Without recognizing Christ's singular divinity, you must not recognizing how you morally pale in comparison to Him.  But then, recognizing yourself as God does conveniently eliminate the problem of sin doesn't it.

 

Circular reasoning to the rescue.

 

Read Romans....And then the sermon on the mount.  Be confronted with your own conscience....and the debt you owe.

 

Deluding yourself into thinking you are God might adequately sedate you throughout this lifetime, but it will do little to diffuse the light of His coming upon your inescapable reconcilitiation with the truth that is Him.

 

Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess.  Either with love in you heart or a foot on the back of your neck.  You choose.

Who (besides IAGAY) considers themselves God? The only one who is touting their superiority seems to be you. I mean, wanting to put a foot on my neck to make me bow to your Invisible Buddy? Admit it - you know you'd love that foot on my neck to be yours.

Wanting to stomp me into the ground in the name of your prince of peace - I love irony, don't you?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Please, the Buybull is

Please, the Buybull is bullshit, Jesus probably never existed and the Jesus character wasn't as good as you think:

Jesus_was_an_asshat.

 

 

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Aaron Fochtman wrote:It's

Aaron Fochtman wrote:


It's ironic that I try to contact this organization and am confronted with
tips to control my asthma symptoms.  It's ironic because at the age of 14 I was diagnosed with asthma, and have suffered from it in times of
allergic response and exercise induction in the subsequent years.  It's
ironic because three weeks ago, I was suddenly and abruptly separated from this condition at the behest of the God of all creation, through belief in his Son, Jesus Christ.

 

 

Hey Aaron. If you are still around I had a few questions regarding the above. Although you said that this (above quote) was not really what you were here for it is this part that intrigues me most so I hope you won't mind me focusing on it.

I am curious about your experience of being healed or 'separated from the condition', as you said.

 

These are my questions, for now:

How long did you have Asthma?


Between birth and 14 did you NOT have Asthma or ?


At the time you wrote the above it had been about 3 weeks since you no longer had Asthma symptoms. How long had you been praying or asking for healing before it worked? I mean, was this the first time you believed in Jesus?

 

Were there any changes in your life routine just before this event? (change job, girlfriend, location, stop horse riding lessons?)


Had others been praying for you since you were 14?


When your condition improved so dramatically how did you know that it was the work of 'the God of all creation, through belief in his Son, Jesus Christ.' ? What did it feel like? I mean, did you actually feel something or did you simply, over time, notice that you weren't having any more asthma symptoms?


(related to above question) When you say this occurred abruptly what do you mean - in a second, over the course of a few minutes, overnight or ?


What were you thinking and/or feeling just prior to your abrupt change in your asthmatic condition?


Do you know any other asthmatics and, if so, have they also been healed?


Do you have any fear that the Asthma could return?

 

Well, that is too many questions...just answer the ones you'd like to. Let me be clear though. Assuming you really are someone who had a serious Asthmatic condition and that there are no medical or environmental changes that could explain what happened, I am highly skeptical that the reality is that an external god healed you due to your belief in his son. However, I still find it very interesting and, even though I won't be trying to disprove that your experience was as you say, I will be, even if it is within my own mind and research, exploring what alternative explanations may exist.

Even if you were truly healed by some means something physical had to have happened, right?

 

Unfortunately Asthma is not an ideal case to think about when it comes to 'spontaneous healing', if there is such a thing, because, if I understand correctly, Asthma could be completely related to your environment. There are cases of people having no asthma reaction to other animals but upon exposure to rats suddenly developing symptoms. Same story for horses, goats and many other animals or clothes made from certain animals. If you know a vet or anyone who works with or is exposed to animals then just being around them can cause it. Obviously there are other things, dust etc., I'm sure you know more about it than me...

 


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I call bullshit

I had asthma from age 6 till I was 15, the year I hit 15 the asthma attacks became less frequent, and eventually stop, except for they are allergy related (cats give me allergies that trigger the asthmas attacks) and they are no where near as bad as they once more, now more of an annoyance really and just taking an allergy pill takes it away. Before I would have to go to the hospital.....and the kicker is I have never believed in god, I never prayed to god to stop the asthma attacks or anything. it's purely a biological reason why it went away. He may not want to accept it and his belief that god took it away is a way to convience himself that god does truely exist.


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That's exactly right, LC. 

That's exactly right, LC.  Asthma is often triggered, but your body can also build up immunity to those triggers.  As you age it grows more and more dormant (it never goes away completely).  When god starts healing amputees then I'll believe these sorts of things happen.  Until that day, putting "god" in place of biology will not work on those of us smart enough to know the difference.

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Yeah Matt, what to do with

Yeah Matt, what to do with BI BULL Jesus shit ????    Knock on wood !

I really wish the words "Jesus" and "God", as used by the religious, would just go away. Because they won't, I try to destroy their traditional religious usage. "Jesus and god are atheist."  Blah Blah. "Atheists for Jesus. Atheists with Gawed on our side" .... you know my rap .... The crazies make me crazy !

That fucking bible is a damn nightmare of darkness and ignorance, disguised with bits of simple elementary truths. How do we awaken the world from this dreaded  nightmare of superstition and idol worship.. Well, by any peaceful means we can devise ..... "I am god as you, as we are the christ, as all things are god" ..... "God of Abraham is the enemy of humanity, an idol invention of human ignorance" .....  Jefferson and his friends tried ....     

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

THOMAS JEFFERSON ON CHRISTIANITY &  RELIGION - Compiled by Jim Walker

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

- HERE are some Jefferson quotes showing how the word "Atheist" was used in the past. I consider a deitist, close to being an agnostic atheist pantheist .... What would Jefferson call himself today?   >  'Atheist' I'm sure ....

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God. -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820


 

 


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:To

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

The plot thickens! LOL!

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athiests get pwned

why is it all of you rational responders lack the simplest procedures for debate.  you all seem to answer through snap psychoanalysis and assuming my motives yet none of you seem to have the sense to question my source.  I have no desire to have my foot on the back of anyone's neck (which was a figure of speech by the way), I just drew the logical conclusion to what the Bible plainly says.  Every kneee will bow and every tongue confess, yet most will perish in unbelief.  Why, because they refused God's grace and would condescend to the Creator of Heaven and Earth so far as to insist he prove Himself to them. 

"If they would not believe Moses and the prophets, neither would they believe one returned from the grave"

If doctoring up a motive for me serves to elude the truthfulness of the statement at hand, at least be honest enough to say, I don't like that the Bible says that because it seems unfair to me.

And then ask yourself..."unfair? on the basis of what standard of 'fair', and according to what source"

You may find in fact that your standard of fair only serves to repudiate your ever fickle and self-centered measure of fairness, and that in even according to that, should you manage the post-modern jargon to define it, you still find yourself missing the mark.  Sinner.

And as far as anyone calling God unfair.  You mock the Pro-lifers while calling God a baby killer for alleviating the world of cultural centers so depraived and infectious, that they would propogate the practice of infant sacrifice toward the appeasal of demons, open pedophlia, the malicious destruction of sojourners, and even the molestation of beast (for you PETA peoples) out there.  Just because God has the wisdom to know that a social cancer cannot be amended by a social band-aid, and the grace towards His creation at large to demonstraate His holy standard of righteousness while serving to curb the spread of such moral degradation does not make him unjust.  Not by His standard, and not by any you can come up with.  You live in a state of active denial. 

Fact:  children are still sold as sex slaves to African witch doctors, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark are now thriving markets for bestial bordellos thanks to new legalization of animal sex, Athiestic, Pagan, and Islamic regimes are responsible for the VAST majority of genocidal killings in the 20th century dwarfing the combined military death totals of every war, and we currently stand on the brink of a World War profecied 2600 years ago right down to the nations involved.  The Bible is true kids, and God is good.  Here's some food for thought:

 

Russia's recent takeover of Georgia will be followed by an upcoming redominiation of the Ukraine, a "protectionist" takeover of Armenia, and the wholesale distribution of Arms to Syria, Iran, Lybia, and Sudan against Israel.  This will be followed by the nuclear destruction of Damascus by Israel, a Nuclear exchange between the United States and Russia, and the sudden rise of the European Union and China as the primary competing world powers from now until Kingdom come.  A nuclear non-proliferation treaty between Israel and Iran, the EU (led by Turkey) promising protection of Israel against Islamic incursions and an East Asian Union dominated by China increasing hegemony over everything east of the Euphrates will be the backdrop for an unforseen propaganda effort to convince the world that all of this was not predicted in the Bible all while competing for the remaining, and rapidly eroding markets and resource pools of Africa, the Americas, and Central Asia while the former "Dominions" find themselves siding with the highest bidder.  The stage is set, the veil removed, enter, some savvy politician, claiming eternal diety.  The end is nigh, the prophets removed, and the judgments to painful to bear.  Still, you will not believe.  Atheism will have ceased to be reconciled with the smallest contingencies of the reasonable and yet still, you will not turn and be saved.  Desperate for your most basic carnal needs, your God being your stomach, you will take the seal of damnation in order that your insatiable appetite be appeased for one short day.  Your judgement is upon you.  You should have taken up faith and learned to fast, but you were so BUSY recieveing that invisible pat on the back from the abyss as you refuted one...more...Christian.  You gloried in your quickened intellect, oblivious to the reality that YOUR "brilliance" was in fact merely the regurgitation of those long passed into baseless, fruitless, meaninless, demise.  Their works the fodder for perpetual revolution, strife, envy, murder, incontinence, rebellion, selfishness, ingratitude, inhospitality, adultry, oathbreaking, malice, and manifest chaos diquised as "progress" and to what end;  with all of your Orwelian warnings, with your Huxleyan innevitabiliites, with your modernistic assurity that "we can achieve", you found yourself spending your entire existance building a tower of earth that could never ascend to heaven, no matter what the fairy tales would preach;...and at the end of your weary day of backbreaking labor...

you've sold your soul...

 

for a simple loaf of bread...

 

 

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

 

 


dudeofthemoment (not verified)
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Brain...you astound me!

 

 

Investigation:  So GLAD you would ask my good sir, as this is an incredible opportuinity to extend my testimony of God's grace.

 

Question 1:

I was first diagnosed with asthma at the age of 14 after a bout of bronchitis landed me in the med center.  It blew beacause I was going to try out for football that year. 

Quesion 2:

While I have always had problems with allergies, until this time I had never recieved a formal diagnosis of asthma.

Question 3:

At the time I wrote, (and the above was a spontaneous reaction to an asthma control advertisement) I had not specifically been praying for healing for some time.  In fact, I said one prayer, with what I believe to be a right motive and was healed the next day.  I had studied kickboxing for four years with the frequent use of an inhalor and had reached competion level in terms of skill yet lacked the energy resources to effectively compete.  Occasionally praying on the subject, I asked God quite casually to relieve me.  I left the subject alone for several years, not expecting this specific gift of grace but finding the grace of having my sins forgiven most sufficient. 

One day while leaning upon a heavybag short of breath, I had a vision (if you will)--or a sporadic imagination  (if you won't)--of being called forward in a church to recieve this gift of healing.  Not unitl about two years later did I again ask for this thing.  I was playing basketball with some Christian kids I mentor (ages 10-16) and finding myself yet again short of breath and merely thinking to myself, or perhaps praying, (I honestly fail to distinguish) how being free from asthma would allow me to minister to these young and mostly fatherless boys for years to come in a physical capacity that allows me to bond with them on the level of plain old fun.  Not having given the subject much more thought, I went to church the next day to meet a missionary evangelist visiting.  Within the context of his sermon he asked if anyone would like to be healed of some pain or sickness when in faith, I came foreward and asked to have my asthma taken so I could continue to run with my boys.  Immediately upon his praying for me, I felt a sensation of heat in the back of my torso, (his hand being on my chest) and was given by him the command to breathe.  I breathed, and ever so deeply. 

That afternoon, being the skeptical analyst that I am, I decided to put this miricle to the test.  So I ran.  I went home, gave it a good stretch, and began to jog.  After a few quick paces I decided to pick it up and give it my all.  With reckless abandon, I ran until my lungs nearly collapsed.  I coughed up that stuff...(that clear fluid that tends to line the lungs of those not in the habit of running as myself) and walked back home.  I had run a half a mile on a dead run, no asthma symptoms.  Being the wary sort, it took me a couple of months to throw away my inhalor, but I haven't used one since.  About 8 months and counting.

Have I ever doubted...Absolutely!

Just this past Sunday, (I'm sure in no small part connected to the bombardment of character assassinations, medical assumptions, and general arrogance recieved toward my testimony by this board---present company excluded), I was devasted by a flare up of allergies due to hayfever season combined with my new job in a dusty factory (making structural insulated housing panels).  After suffering for a week and having no success with over the counter medications--Allegra being the only effective medication I've encountered--I had been too worn out by long shifts and a busy schedule of ministry on the side to make it out to the doctor for a prescription.  In frusteration at my parents house, I began to complain, first about the job, then about the allergies, and finally exlaiming (shamefully) "I still have astma!  That preacher was full of crap and I want to grab him by his throat and tell him to keep his mouth shut"  after a swift rebuke by my dad, both for my temper, and for my faithless tendency to blame God and others in times of trial, I was shoo'd out of their house to the med center.  I drove to the nearest, only to find in closed, and founf myself stumbing through a grocery store, exhausted, congested, wheezing, with a runny nose buying a plethora of allergy medication only to find rest at the dose of a benadryl.

The next morning, I went to the med center, nose pouring, breaths shortened, eyes and nose swollen, and brandishing a roll of toilet paper to see a doctor.  Upon inspecition of my symptoms, and my abashed admission at having a history of asthma symptoms combined with my allergies, the doctor was about to prescribe me an inhalor along with Allegra for the hayfever, Flonase for the congestion, and prednasone for the sinus inflamation.  However, after examining my lungs and taking me through some breathing exercises, he showed open astoundment at the health and capacity of my lungs, declated that I was in great shape, and that the sinus drainage was the only cause of my shortness of breath.  As of today, I have barely coughed, my sinuses are cleared, and my lungs are as healthy as a horse, proving (to me at least) God's faithfulness in spite of my doubts.  I have even indulged in a few cigarrettes this week, the brute that I am.

As far as animal contact is concerned, I have always had a weakness for cats; but do remember, while allergies CAN induce asthma symptoms, allergies themselves are quite different than asthma, as some would be physicians on this board might fail to distinquish.

As far as more physically irreconcilable miricles are concerned, yes, I admit asthma relief is not the most glamorous.  Admittedly, I have never seen the blind see, the deaf hear, or the mute speak; I have never witnessed the lame walking, and I found myself brokenhearted at a man on the streets of Ann Arbor who had lost his face to bone cancer.  Still, I find this personal miricle more than this world has ever afforded me, and if that is not enough to maintain your intrigue.  Ask me next time about my mother.  When I was seven she was diagnosed with cancer.  It disappeared.  Without treatment or explainatin, not only was she given a clean bill of health, but the cancer cells were mysteriously removed from the tumor sample taken surgically from her neck.  If that is not a more profound miricle, we would be in the grips of quite a malpracitice suit.  Wouldn't you agree?

 

Once again Nikimoto, I am taken aback by your courtesy, the thoroughness of your inquisition, and your open-mindedness.  You strike me as a true philosopher, and I hope I have helped your curiosity.

 

Now if I might pose a question.  If you we're to engage in some self-analysis, would you find your skepticism at the idea of God having healed me fueled exclusively by the composition of your own first hand experience with the subject--whether of experimental investigation or of faith--or do you suppose it has been disproportionately weighted by a ruse of propoganda to the opposite?  What I mean to say is, you seem to have a thorough grasp on honesty and inquiry, you'd make for quite a mediator on a boad as this--and a powerful ally should you be so bold as to take a leap of faith.  I don't pretend to sway you but only to assure you, that reason serves only to compliment faith.  Unfortuanately, most athiests have lacked the integrity and intellectual consistency to establish the foundation of their faith, as it is logically impossible on the definition of faith to disprove its existance in any consciousness.  Yet, I doubt one as secure as yourself (as you line of questioning suggests) would truly claim atheism, but rather, unless you mask some enlightened position of a provocateur of reason, you sir are the purest agnostic I have ever met.

Press onward.  If you are as guiless as you seem, I'm sure we'll meet someday.

 


dudeofthemoment (not verified)
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clarification

How the Godless can find cruel a Creator that gives them life, gives them a universe to have dominion over, offer them amnesty and salvation from the demon they recscind that dominion unto, restore them, and exalt them unto an even higher position as sons of God, judges of Angels, and bretheren as the Lord most high simply on the basis of their faith in His not at all unreasonable testimony, simply at his refusal to expend his power perpetually at their behest in spite of their insistent hatred of him due to their unwillingness to be confronted with their own relative smallness is beyond my reconcilliation.  And I'm not even that humble.

 

That would be a retort


dudeofthemoment (not verified)
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???

"Murder is wrong...you can beleive that out of empathy or find yourself in an electric chair"

Same statement, different basis of argument.  I chose the conscience in contrast to American Law, in the former I chose THE theological reality vs. the execution of His Law.  Not mutual exclusivity, just exclusivity.

 

Please do not take this the wrong way, but I think you fail to display the steps to your conclusions to those you purport to express them to.  I had done this in my original post which led to an abundance of misconceptions and fodder for base retorts.

I might be able to speak to your arguments themselves rather than your conclusions if you were to display those arguments.  You have to remember that many have not been exposed to the same philisophical and theoretical treatises as you have.  Basic logic is a matter of honesty and common sense, but philosophers can tend to springboard from the standpoint of the treatise they've set themselves to discount and often fail to display the groundwork upon which they base their claims.  If they were to demand a Logos for their logic, they might find their own positions as adrift as those they so profoundly oppose.

 

Socrates once said, and I paraphrase sadly "All the wisdom in the world is as a tiny raft adrift a bondless sea.  If only we had some Word from the Divine on which to land"

 

Question 1)  If you  would entertain me

What is it exactly that YOU believe IS truth?

 

Question 2)  Why?

 

please be discreet, and thorough in your explanation, assuming me the most ignorant of men...this will aid your explaination.


dudeofthemoment (not verified)
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Verified

Your log in system is beyond the capacities of my simple being.  Forgive me.  I meant not anonymity.


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"What is it exactly that YOU

"What is it exactly that YOU believe IS truth?" /////

Plain and dirt simple , All is gawed, 100% connected, Zero Master, No Overseer. 

You, dudeofthemoment,  seem quite a fan of modern "sophism". Your god concept is my enemy of separatism ideology.

Sophism can mean two very different things: In the modern definition, a sophism is a confusing or illogical argument used for deceiving someone. ...

Not that this is your intent, but your idol worship I completely reject. 

You as I are the christ messiah, as we and everything is the eternal connected force, as is often called "god".   

 


Eloise
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dudeofthemoment wrote:How

dudeofthemoment wrote:

How the Godless can find cruel a Creator that gives them life, gives them a universe to have dominion over, offer them amnesty and salvation from the demon they recscind that dominion unto,

Woah! wait a second! Weren't we talking about a so-called creator who offers one of either servile sycophancies or tyrannical force. Where did all this new rhetoric come from? What dominion, what rescinding, what demon?

Aaron wrote:

restore them, and exalt them unto an even higher position as sons of God, judges of Angels, and bretheren as the Lord most high

Promises promises.. is this what lackey love gets you? How.. tempting.

 

Aaron wrote:

simply on the basis of their faith in His not at all unreasonable testimony,

I'm not taking issue with "his" testimony, I'm taking issue with Yours.

 

Theist badge qualifier : Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist

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Eloise An idol is

Eloise    

  An idol is separatism .... I OBJECT to all idol worship .... but LOVE is my favorite thing .....     

   "All we need is love" ???     ??? YEAH , of course !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLxTpsIVzzo

                      SIMPLE WISDOM !

 

   


dudeofthemoment (not verified)
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Testimonial Issues

My testimony is His testimony.  Quit pretending to take issue with what I'm saying and admit taking issue with what the Bible is saying.

Or, criticize a book you clearly don't understand and quite probably you've never read.  And speak as if I wrote that book off the top of my head yesterday.

Your choice. 

You and "I AM MY OWN IDOL FACE" should hook up.  Irrational and baseless statements could flow over the dinner table like an episode of Seinfeld on acid.

What is your source?  What is your source? What is your source? What is your SOURCE?!!!!!!

Mine is the Bible.  If you take issue with it, WHAT IS YOURS?!?!

Do you understand that argumentative positions based on an unconfirmed source might as well be random word salads.  It does not matter how big the words are, or how cynical the tone.

Have a basis for what you say.  This is getting redudnant.  My patience with the unteachable is limited.

 

They should call this the Irrational Reaction Squad...and Nikimoto and I could start a board called the "adult conversation of people who think club"

(oh wait....IRS is already taken)


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What an asshat. The Buybull

What an asshat. The Buybull is utter bullshit.


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I have read every word of

I have read every word of the bible , it mostly sucks , but that atheist Jesus is pretty cool .... We are all god,  that rebel said ....    No doubt , me is god .... all is one