Is Immanuel Jesus?

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Is Immanuel Jesus?

As we know from Mathew 1-22:23, he quotes the prophecy of immanuel

"22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"[d]—which means, "God with us."

d. Matthew 1:23 Isaiah 7:14"

If we read the prophecy of immanuel in it's entirety (which I left at the bottom if you'd like to see it for yourself), we find a lot of indiscrepencies between Immanuel and Jesus.

This prophecy was said, by God himself, that it would happen within 65 years.  Yet, Isaiah lived in the 8th century B.C.  Jesus did not arrive on the seen for hundreds of years after this prophecy.

If that isn't enough for you right there then just read the prophecy and ask yourself, does this really sound like jesus?  For example, he prophecy says that "He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right." 

This quote cannot describe Jesus for two reasons.  One, there is no evidence that Jesus ever ate curds and honey, but we do no from Luke 24:41-42 that he 'ate meat' .  Secondly, if Jesus is the son of God and is without sin, how could he have ever NOT 'reject the wrong and choose the right' .  Luke again, refered said that Jesus "Was waxed strong, until his mission was shown unto him"(Luke 1:80)

Can anyone even find me one shred of evidence (biblical) that Jesus was ever called Immanuel in his lifetime?

 

There is more, but I need to go for the time being.  If anyone has any response to the arguements I've made so far, I'd be interested in the answers.

 

Isaiah 7

The Sign of Immanuel

 

1

When Ahaz son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, was king of Judah, King Rezin of Aram and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel marched up to fight against Jerusalem, but they could not overpower it.

 2 Now the house of David was told, "Aram has allied itself with [a] Ephraim"; so the hearts of Ahaz and his people were shaken, as the trees of the forest are shaken by the wind.

 3 Then the LORD said to Isaiah, "Go out, you and your son Shear-Jashub, [b] to meet Ahaz at the end of the aqueduct of the Upper Pool, on the road to the Washerman's Field. 4 Say to him, 'Be careful, keep calm and don't be afraid. Do not lose heart because of these two smoldering stubs of firewood—because of the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram and of the son of Remaliah. 5 Aram, Ephraim and Remaliah's son have plotted your ruin, saying, 6 "Let us invade Judah; let us tear it apart and divide it among ourselves, and make the son of Tabeel king over it." 7 Yet this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
       " 'It will not take place,
       it will not happen,

 8 for the head of Aram is Damascus,
       and the head of Damascus is only Rezin.
       Within sixty-five years
       Ephraim will be too shattered to be a people.

 9 The head of Ephraim is Samaria,
       and the head of Samaria is only Remaliah's son.
       If you do not stand firm in your faith,
       you will not stand at all.' "

 10 Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz, 11 "Ask the LORD your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights."

 12 But Ahaz said, "I will not ask; I will not put the LORD to the test."

 13 Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you [c] a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and [d] will call him Immanuel. [e] 15 He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. 16 But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17 The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria."

 18 In that day the LORD will whistle for flies from the distant streams of Egypt and for bees from the land of Assyria. 19 They will all come and settle in the steep ravines and in the crevices in the rocks, on all the thornbushes and at all the water holes. 20 In that day the Lord will use a razor hired from beyond the River [f] —the king of Assyria—to shave your head and the hair of your legs, and to take off your beards also. 21 In that day, a man will keep alive a young cow and two goats. 22 And because of the abundance of the milk they give, he will have curds to eat. All who remain in the land will eat curds and honey. 23 In that day, in every place where there were a thousand vines worth a thousand silver shekels, [g] there will be only briers and thorns. 24 Men will go there with bow and arrow, for the land will be covered with briers and thorns. 25 As for all the hills once cultivated by the hoe, you will no longer go there for fear of the briers and thorns; they will become places where cattle are turned loose and where sheep run.


Jeffrick
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Liars

                Have you ever heard of creative story telling; the authers of the bible didn't invent it but they sure practiced it.    

       

       That writer of Matthew (there were several)  knew the story of Immanuel,   he  was trying to convert  to Christianity Jews who also knew the story of Immanuel;  so he used it by equating Immanuel has  Jesus,   a short cut to his goal.

 

       The writer was not trying to write 'true and acurate history' he was trying to convert Jews; sometimes the creative writing worked, there are a lot of Christens today;  and sometimes it didn't work,  there a lot of Jews today.  Another word for creative writing is lieing.

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No one I know worships Manny

No one I know worships Manny the Messiah. It's a shame, really. He might have been a nice guy. Shame they decided to replace him with that freak Jesus instead.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Lying with a motive is still lying.

Jeffrick:

You do realize that this is the bibilical errancy section, yeah?  I'm not questioning why the book of Matthew incorrectly states that Jesus was Immanuel, I'm just interested in the fact that this statement IS incorrect. 

 

Thanks for agreeing with me that the bible is wrong in this case, but I would like to know what the oppostion has to say.


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I'll have the signature corned beef, hold the potatocakes please

jcgadfly wrote:

No one I know worships Manny the Messiah. It's a shame, really. He might have been a nice guy. Shame they decided to replace him with that freak Jesus instead.

 

I knew there was something messianic about this place

.... http://www.mannysdeli.com/?gclid=CPGKquHq4pQCFQUNIgodjjuVQg

or maybe, it's just messy.

Ahhhhh, the windy city.

 


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TheAstronomicalWonder

TheAstronomicalWonder wrote:

Jeffrick:

You do realize that this is the bibilical errancy section, yeah?  I'm not questioning why the book of Matthew incorrectly states that Jesus was Immanuel, I'm just interested in the fact that this statement IS incorrect. 

 

Thanks for agreeing with me that the bible is wrong in this case, but I would like to know what the oppostion has to say.

Good luck on that - I expect to hear crickets for a while.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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TheAstronomicalWonder

TheAstronomicalWonder wrote:

As we know from Mathew 1-22:23, he quotes the prophecy of immanuel

"22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"[d]—which means, "God with us."

d. Matthew 1:23 Isaiah 7:14"

If we read the prophecy of immanuel in it's entirety (which I left at the bottom if you'd like to see it for yourself), we find a lot of indiscrepencies between Immanuel and Jesus.

This prophecy was said, by God himself, that it would happen within 65 years.  Yet, Isaiah lived in the 8th century B.C.  Jesus did not arrive on the seen for hundreds of years after this prophecy.

If that isn't enough for you right there then just read the prophecy and ask yourself, does this really sound like jesus?  For example, he prophecy says that "He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right." 

This quote cannot describe Jesus for two reasons.  One, there is no evidence that Jesus ever ate curds and honey, but we do no from Luke 24:41-42 that he 'ate meat' .  Secondly, if Jesus is the son of God and is without sin, how could he have ever NOT 'reject the wrong and choose the right' .  Luke again, refered said that Jesus "Was waxed strong, until his mission was shown unto him"(Luke 1:80)

Can anyone even find me one shred of evidence (biblical) that Jesus was ever called Immanuel in his lifetime?

 

There is more, but I need to go for the time being.  If anyone has any response to the arguements I've made so far, I'd be interested in the answers.

 

Isaiah 7

The Sign of Immanuel

 

1

When Ahaz son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, was king of Judah, King Rezin of Aram and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel marched up to fight against Jerusalem, but they could not overpower it.

 2 Now the house of David was told, "Aram has allied itself with [a] Ephraim"; so the hearts of Ahaz and his people were shaken, as the trees of the forest are shaken by the wind.

 3 Then the LORD said to Isaiah, "Go out, you and your son Shear-Jashub, [b] to meet Ahaz at the end of the aqueduct of the Upper Pool, on the road to the Washerman's Field. 4 Say to him, 'Be careful, keep calm and don't be afraid. Do not lose heart because of these two smoldering stubs of firewood—because of the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram and of the son of Remaliah. 5 Aram, Ephraim and Remaliah's son have plotted your ruin, saying, 6 "Let us invade Judah; let us tear it apart and divide it among ourselves, and make the son of Tabeel king over it." 7 Yet this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
       " 'It will not take place,
       it will not happen,

 8 for the head of Aram is Damascus,
       and the head of Damascus is only Rezin.
       Within sixty-five years
       Ephraim will be too shattered to be a people.

 9 The head of Ephraim is Samaria,
       and the head of Samaria is only Remaliah's son.
       If you do not stand firm in your faith,
       you will not stand at all.' "

 10 Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz, 11 "Ask the LORD your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights."

 12 But Ahaz said, "I will not ask; I will not put the LORD to the test."

 13 Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you [c] a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and [d] will call him Immanuel. [e] 15 He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. 16 But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17 The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria."

 18 In that day the LORD will whistle for flies from the distant streams of Egypt and for bees from the land of Assyria. 19 They will all come and settle in the steep ravines and in the crevices in the rocks, on all the thornbushes and at all the water holes. 20 In that day the Lord will use a razor hired from beyond the River [f] —the king of Assyria—to shave your head and the hair of your legs, and to take off your beards also. 21 In that day, a man will keep alive a young cow and two goats. 22 And because of the abundance of the milk they give, he will have curds to eat. All who remain in the land will eat curds and honey. 23 In that day, in every place where there were a thousand vines worth a thousand silver shekels, [g] there will be only briers and thorns. 24 Men will go there with bow and arrow, for the land will be covered with briers and thorns. 25 As for all the hills once cultivated by the hoe, you will no longer go there for fear of the briers and thorns; they will become places where cattle are turned loose and where sheep run.

You misunderstand the interpretation.  First, to be clear, this is not a prophecy anymore than Noah's flood is a prophecy of Moses' parting of the red sea.    The Hebrew is in the singular present tense - Isaiah is not speaking about a messiah who is coming later, but young woman "has conceived" and "will bear a child".  It is not that this is some future event, but something that is to happen soon.  But this is not written about an actual event either.  It is important to remember the allegory, which Isaiah (and much of the Bible) is. 

In Matthew, the author is not suggesting that Jesus is the prophesied messiah, but rather he is alluding through mimesis the connection he is drawing from the Old Testament for his narrative.  The name Jesus ('Savior' or 'Yahweh Saves') is a cue to us that something is going to happen in the narrative.  When Matthew signifies the nature of the name (by quoting Isaiah 7 the way he has) he is telling us how to interpret what is going to happen.  Something is going to happen: Yahweh will save by being with us.  The author of Matthew is making a promise.  He is saying that by the end of the narrative, Yahweh will save, and God will be with us.  His promise is fulfilled in the resurrection and ascension part of the narrative at the end.  I am working on a blog post on this very thing as we speak. 

It is important to keep in mind that ancient authors interpreted many types of literature as they pleased, and used these other sources as models for their own works.  This will be further explained in my series specifically dealing with contradictions.  I hope this has been helpful.

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Thank you Rook_Hawkins, that

Thank you Rook_Hawkins, that was helpful.  If you finish that post, could you let me know?  I would be very interested in reading it.


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TheAstronomicalWonder

TheAstronomicalWonder wrote:

Thank you Rook_Hawkins, that was helpful.  If you finish that post, could you let me know?  I would be very interested in reading it.

 

If you're interested in a book on this subject there is an excellent one out there called Israel's Messiah in the Bible and the Dead Sea Scrolls.  It gives a variety of perspectives on the messianic expectations of people from the Old Testatment into the New.


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TheAstronomicalWonder

TheAstronomicalWonder wrote:
This prophecy was said, by God himself, that it would happen within 65 years.  Yet, Isaiah lived in the 8th century B.C.  Jesus did not arrive on the seen for hundreds of years after this prophecy.
The prophecy says that Ephraim will be conquered within 65 years.  It then says that Judah will be conqured before Jesus is old enough to know right from wrong.  Both of those things happened.  It does not say that Jesus will be born within 65 years.  It does not even say that Jesus will be born in Ahaz's lifetime.  That's why the sign was delivered to the House of David and not to Ahaz.  If Ahaz had asked, quite possibly Jesus would have come to Earth as Messiah at that time, saving a great deal of trouble later on, but, of course, that's just speculation.

Quote:
This quote cannot describe Jesus for two reasons.  One, there is no evidence that Jesus ever ate curds and honey, but we do no from Luke 24:41-42 that he 'ate meat' .
Do you understand the difference between "there is no evidence"and "cannot describe?" The Bible doesn't tell us whether Jesus wore diapers, but, if I were a betting man, I'd bet that He did.  Nowhere is there a statement in the Bible that young Jesus did not eat curds and honey.  Curds and honey were both widely available in Biblical times, so I'd be surprised if He never ate them.  But there is no way anyone who is intellectually honest can say that the Gospels prove that He did not.

Quote:
Secondly, if Jesus is the son of God and is without sin, how could he have ever NOT 'reject the wrong and choose the right' .  Luke again, refered said that Jesus "Was waxed strong, until his mission was shown unto him"(Luke 1:80)
He never rejected the right or chose the wrong.  The Bible tells us that he was, at one point, too young to know the difference, and nothing more.  What sin do you think Jesus could have committed in his infancy?  After that, of course he rejected the wrong and chose the right.  Luke 1:80, which you quoted incompletely, tells us And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.

Quote:
Can anyone even find me one shred of evidence (biblical) that Jesus was ever called Immanuel in his lifetime?
Can anyone even find me one shred of evidence (biblical) that Jesus was not ever called Immanuel in his lifetime?  Maybe the Gospel writers were concerned with more pressing issues than Mary's nickname for Jesus.  Again, you can't use the absence of evidence to prove that a thing did not happen, any more than I can use the absence of evidence on this matter to prove that Jesus was the Messiah.

Once an athiest, now a believer, and always ready to debate issues respectfully.