how to give a scientific opinion on this

netopia
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how to give a scientific opinion on this

hi back here
 I was asked this question from  a jehovah's witness  
they are biblical or scientific questions  
Isaiah 40:22  There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell,
job 22:7 He is stretching out the north over the empty place,
Hanging the earth upon nothing;
CAN YOU GIVE ME YOUR OPINION OF THE TEXTS THAT QUOTES YOU?
can any of you  give me a scientific opinion? thanks.


DrFear
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yeah, great, absolutely! 

yeah, great, absolutely!  so what's the question? thanks.


netopia
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how did  they knew of these

how did  they knew of these 2 Biblical books  in the antiquity
that the planet is suspended in nothing


MattShizzle
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The Earth isn't suspended

The Earth isn't suspended and space isn't "nothing."


netopia
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he ask me about this 2 bible

he ask me about this 2 bible books

Isaiah 40:22  There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell,


job 22:7 He is stretching out the north over the empty place,
Hanging the earth upon nothing;

cheers.


Hambydammit
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Quote:can any of you  give

Quote:
can any of you  give me a scientific opinion? thanks.

Official scientific opinion follows:

 

Um... what?

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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JillSwift
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netopia wrote:he ask me

netopia wrote:
he ask me about this 2 bible books

Isaiah 40:22  There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell,


job 22:7 He is stretching out the north over the empty place,
Hanging the earth upon nothing;

cheers.

They're claiming the bible "got it right" before science did, right?

Two ways to deal with this:

One, the "heavens" are the stars, and aren't a "tent", nor is the earth a circle but a spheroid, nor is it hanging but part of a big gravity driven dance with Sol the center of its orbit and the Milky Way the context.

Two, a great deal of cultures predating the bible have made similar claims about the earth - if one is willing to stretch definitions to make the bible's interpretation work, then you have to give 'got there first' credit to others.

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


DrFear
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uhhhhehhhh, wow....i don't

uhhhhehhhh, wow....i don't see where you got that from what it (netopia) is saying.

 


JillSwift
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DrFear wrote:uhhhhehhhh,

DrFear wrote:
uhhhhehhhh, wow....i don't see where you got that from what it (netopia) is saying.
A couple of Jehova's Witnesses threw the same passages at me when I said I prefer science over bullshit, claiming it meant the bible was 'scientific'. I'm guessing netopia is just hearing the same line of bullshit.


 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


DrFear
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hmm, that's kind of out

hmm, that's kind of out there to even be classified as  bullshit.  how do they figure it's scientific now?

Fear is the mindkiller.


JillSwift
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DrFear wrote:hmm, that's

DrFear wrote:
hmm, that's kind of out there to even be classified as  bullshit.  how do they figure it's scientific now?
Exactly the same way they figure god exists: They say so.


 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


DrFear
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well then it shouldn't be

well then it shouldn't be such a hard question to figure out then, should it *ahem* (netopia)?


Balrogoz
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 I don't know the

 I don't know the background on those books of the bible, but to my mind it seems more likely that it is a refutation of Hinduism than a poor rendition of Newton's Laws of Motion (which is my guess at what the JW's are saying is the scientific claim).

If I have gained anything by damning myself, it is that I no longer have anything to fear. - JP Sartre


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How about a layman's

How about a layman's opinion? They're full of it.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


raith
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netopia wrote:hi back here

netopia wrote:

hi back here
 I was asked this question from  a jehovah's witness  
they are biblical or scientific questions  
Isaiah 40:22  There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell,
job 22:7 He is stretching out the north over the empty place,
Hanging the earth upon nothing;
CAN YOU GIVE ME YOUR OPINION OF THE TEXTS THAT QUOTES YOU?
can any of you  give me a scientific opinion? thanks.

The earth isn't a circle, it's a sphere.

I am not a grasshopper.

Maybe something like pilates? Exercise is good? (stretching)

Arctic is pretty empty, just talk to the eskimos, though they will tell you differently.

It isn't hung on anything, so nothing is a bad translation of that.

 

 


JillSwift
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raith wrote:I am not a

raith wrote:
I am not a grasshopper. 
Master Po

It is only a nickname, Grasshopper.

 


nikimoto
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There are other

There are other translations, such as King James's, which are as follows:

King James Bible
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Isn't this allegorical, anyway?

 

Regarding Job 22:7....it doesn't say anything like that at all.

At least, I can't find anything like that...

 

22:7 says:

7 You have not given the weary water to drink,
      And you have withheld bread from the hungry.

 

The closest thing to what was quoted as Job 22:7 comes

in Job 22:12-14, which are as follows:

12 “Is not God in the height of heaven?
      And see the highest stars, how lofty they are!

 13 And you say, ‘What does God know?
      Can He judge through the deep darkness?

 14 Thick clouds cover Him, so that He cannot see,
      And He walks above the circle of heaven.’

All of this seems allegorical and/or imaginary.

 

Actually it is Job 26:7 that we should be looking at:


He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

 Still, this only demonstrates that one or more people may have understood that the earth is an orb in space (like the sun/moon which they could see) and that they didn't have any better way to understand or express its presence in the "nothing" that they could see and so they imagined a god "hanging" or suspending it there like a yo-yo or something.

.

.

.

.

 


netopia
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Sorry for repeating the question.

nikimoto

 this jehovah's witness  only wants to know what  people like me ( I do not believe that there is a all powerful god) , thinks   about the books that  he mentioned.
Isaiah 40:22    job 22:7
how  the primitive man, or tribal men knew about it beford there was any way or technology available to them.
 


netopia
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   this is the book 

   this is the book  second he quoted  job 22:7 my bad.
 


DrFear
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you don't need technology to

you don't need technology to see the sun, moon, clouds, or the stars, and then make up some fantastical explanation of how they're all interrelated.....

furthermore, the quotes don't mention anything about three-dimensionality

Fear is the mindkiller.


JillSwift
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DrFear wrote:you don't need

DrFear wrote:
you don't need technology to see the sun, moon, clouds, or the stars, and then make up some fantastical explanation of how they're all interrelated.....

furthermore, the quotes don't mention anything about three-dimensionality

What Fear says, plus the fact that where those passages have a vague resemblance to what we now know to be true, because they assume an earth-centric universe and assume all else to be decorative the passages are essentially wrong.

 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


Eloise
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netopia wrote:hi back here

 

netopia wrote:

hi back here
 I was asked this question from  a jehovah's witness  
they are biblical or scientific questions  
Isaiah 40:22  There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell,

This part is taken to be allegory for the expanding universe - ie stretching just as fine gauze (allusion to a metric grid) spread like a tent in which to dwell (alludes to three dimensions of space).

 

netopia wrote:


job 22:7 He is stretching out the north over the empty place,
Hanging the earth upon nothing;
 

And this is, more obviously, taken to be a reference to the apparent vacuum of space.

netopia wrote:

CAN YOU GIVE ME YOUR OPINION OF THE TEXTS THAT QUOTES YOU?
can any of you  give me a scientific opinion? thanks.

My opinion is the same as Jill's, though these metaphors are reasonably analogous to 20th century scientific models of the universe, if you give credit here you must consistently give credit to other religious tracts having the same degree of truthiness, and there are lots of those. Ultimately it says very little about the explicit existence of Judeo Christian God (this is a very selective sample of the Biblical hit rate against a selective sample of science it's not very compelling) and could mean a lot of things.

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