An argument atheists haven't used but ought to

ragdish
atheist
ragdish's picture
Posts: 461
Joined: 2007-12-31
User is offlineOffline
An argument atheists haven't used but ought to

In practically all atheist-theist debates, the question of why is the universe so intricately fine tuned or why is there a universe at all which sustains life. The traditional response to the theist's explanation of a Creator is how did the Creator come about?

I find an equally viable answer in neuroscience. All organisms with a complex nervous system seek patterns in nature. The human brain evolved the capacity for consciousness, language and symbols to reflect these regularities. We are carbon based pattern recognizing neural networks who have always sought to explain things. The modern product of our evolved cognition is mathematics which amazingly reflects the fundamental laws of nature. Our bewilderment as to why our universe is so fine tuned reflects our innate ability to recongize patterns and a need to explain them. And the best explanations are couched in science and mathematics. And yet our brains have a finite capacity, we can say why ad infinitum. Thus the supernatural explanation of "God did it" is unsatisfactory. We still say who, what, where, why and how.

I liken this to explaining what an electron looks like in macroscopic terms ie. shape, color, etc.. Yet our perception of an electron is contingent on the measuring apparatus (wave or particle) and the language of mathematics. We can never understand quantum mechanics because our brains evolved to perceive things macroscopically. Only our evolved capacity for language and symbols which ultimately led to mathematics and then measuring devices have we the ability to perceive an electron. It would be stupid to say only God knows what an electron looks like.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 16433
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
ragdish wrote:In practically

ragdish wrote:

In practically all atheist-theist debates, the question of why is the universe so intricately fine tuned or why is there a universe at all which sustains life. The traditional response to the theist's explanation of a Creator is how did the Creator come about?

I find an equally viable answer in neuroscience. All organisms with a complex nervous system seek patterns in nature. The human brain evolved the capacity for consciousness, language and symbols to reflect these regularities. We are carbon based pattern recognizing neural networks who have always sought to explain things. The modern product of our evolved cognition is mathematics which amazingly reflects the fundamental laws of nature. Our bewilderment as to why our universe is so fine tuned reflects our innate ability to recongize patterns and a need to explain them. And the best explanations are couched in science and mathematics. And yet our brains have a finite capacity, we can say why ad infinitum. Thus the supernatural explanation of "God did it" is unsatisfactory. We still say who, what, where, why and how.

I liken this to explaining what an electron looks like in macroscopic terms ie. shape, color, etc.. Yet our perception of an electron is contingent on the measuring apparatus (wave or particle) and the language of mathematics. We can never understand quantum mechanics because our brains evolved to perceive things macroscopically. Only our evolved capacity for language and symbols which ultimately led to mathematics and then measuring devices have we the ability to perceive an electron. It would be stupid to say only God knows what an electron looks like.

What makes you think we have not?

From the philosophical to the scientific aspects we constantly argue and demonstrate that the argument from complexity is absurd. If you had done your homework "infinite regress" should  suffice.

Theism assumes hocus pokus and assumes complexity first.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog


Nordmann
atheist
Nordmann's picture
Posts: 904
Joined: 2008-04-02
User is offlineOffline
Theists aren't very good at

Theists aren't very good at arguing their case, not least because they don't really have one in the proper academic sense of the term, but also because it's really something that they didn't have to do until comparatively recently. The traditional theist stances towards anything that questioned their beliefs were normally either condemnation or simply ignoring the opposition.

 

I've been criticised on this site before for using the term "schizophrenic" to describe the religious mind, but I persist in doing so since the term - whatever its medical employment - literally means "divided mind", and if one does not proceed from that assumption when arguing with a theist then the experience is bound to dissolve into frustrating illogicality very quickly. The division is more obvious in some compared to others but in my experience it is present always, and becomes most evident when they start to employ "rational" explanations for their unfounded beliefs. When you realise that your interlocutor is taking the liberty of jumping at will between two oppositional mind-sets then, while their arguments don't get any better, at least you can see where they're coming from - two places at once.

 

What is divided is the part of the mind that has been conditioned and trained to think logically from the more instinctive part of the mind which has the ability to jump to quick conclusions. Both have a role in survival, of course, but religious belief tends to be rooted in the latter while retaining an ability to monopolise the former when it comes to justification. Dawkins's use of the term "delusion" was therefore spot on - it cannot be anything else.

 

An honest theist, when pressed to explain why he or she persists in a belief for which there is no evidence will say "I don't know". They will also readily admit that the form of this belief that they adhere to is of course decided as much by the geography surrounding their birthplace as the defendability of its tenets. But honest theists are seemingly hard to find, at least in those terms. The dishonesty in not making these simple and obvious admissions is compounded when the delusional aspect to their condition encourages them to attempt to justify their stance employing rhetoric and processes normally reserved for more practical purposes. They call it theology. I call it hyperbole in the Aristotlean sense - the intentional exaggeration of one or more semantic norms at the expense of others. Rhetorically it is used as a technique to deflect attention from an argument's weakness by emphasising an apparent strength and then quickly moving on before it too can be analysed and revealed as evidence for the dishonest intention behind its use.

 

The rhetorical answer to this technique is well exemplified by several of the site regulars here. Users of hyperbole simply need to be brought back again and again to those things that they present as their argument's strengths and forced to demonstrate that strength - something they are rarely able to do. If a person is being intentionally dishonest the technique pays dividends very quickly. If, on the other hand, the arguer is delusional and especially if they are religious delusionals, then the technique simply sends them skipping back to the instinctive - where "it is right because I say so" actually makes sense, at least to them.

 

Pointing out ways in which theists could better argue their case is therefore rather pointless, if the hope is to improve the debate and therefore improve the chances of rescuing them from their delusion. My own experience is that the only reasonably effective way of helping them address their delusional condition is to attempt - through whatever rhetorical device applies - to keep their brain working in the "logical" sector and purposefully haul them out when they retreat into the instinctive, when for example words like "mystery", "holy", "spiritual" etc begin insinuating themselves into the logical flow of the debate. But to do this effectively it is vital to focus on those arguments that they themselves retain the ability to understand and follow, and not introduce others which they themselves did not derive from deduction. You just build another bridge for them to hop over and back into the irrational and instinctive region of their mind, since the source of the theist mind-set resides there and all new arguments - indeed all new facts - undergo that negative filtering for as long as the delusion is harboured.

 

I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy


Jacob Cordingley
SuperfanBronze Member
Jacob Cordingley's picture
Posts: 1484
Joined: 2007-03-18
User is offlineOffline
ragdish wrote:In practically

ragdish wrote:

In practically all atheist-theist debates, the question of why is the universe so intricately fine tuned or why is there a universe at all which sustains life. The traditional response to the theist's explanation of a Creator is how did the Creator come about?

I find an equally viable answer in neuroscience. All organisms with a complex nervous system seek patterns in nature. The human brain evolved the capacity for consciousness, language and symbols to reflect these regularities. We are carbon based pattern recognizing neural networks who have always sought to explain things. The modern product of our evolved cognition is mathematics which amazingly reflects the fundamental laws of nature. Our bewilderment as to why our universe is so fine tuned reflects our innate ability to recongize patterns and a need to explain them. And the best explanations are couched in science and mathematics. And yet our brains have a finite capacity, we can say why ad infinitum. Thus the supernatural explanation of "God did it" is unsatisfactory. We still say who, what, where, why and how.

I liken this to explaining what an electron looks like in macroscopic terms ie. shape, color, etc.. Yet our perception of an electron is contingent on the measuring apparatus (wave or particle) and the language of mathematics. We can never understand quantum mechanics because our brains evolved to perceive things macroscopically. Only our evolved capacity for language and symbols which ultimately led to mathematics and then measuring devices have we the ability to perceive an electron. It would be stupid to say only God knows what an electron looks like.

Sadly neuroscience might not sway a theist. Many theists, even liberal thinking theists are dualists and so believe that consciousness is also a supernatural force beyond the physical realities of the brain.

Although arguments from neuroscience could be persuasive, I don't think a staunch dualist would actually care for it, and even if he agreed with all the observable facts could still ask whether such and such a brain state actually causes a certain thought or whether it is just symptomatic of that thought generated by your supernatural mind.

I think another answer to the order-in-the-Universe question is this... In the universe there are stable and unstable structures. For example: let's say you have a spherical object and a cuboid object just floating around in space. If the objects are small both should in theory be stable because they have low gravitational pull. If however they are larger, say planet sized only the spherical object will be stable. This is because the strong gravitational pull of the cuboid will pull the corners in on themselves, until gradually the cuboid object will become spherical under the strain. If we look at bubbles in water, they too are spherical because for carrying air through water, any other shaped bubble could not come into existence because the laws of physics deem it unstable, in the freak event that such a bubble did come into being it last more than a nanosecond. This process is akin to natural selection. Indeed if we replace the word 'fittest' with 'most stable' and take out the replication element from the theory of natural selection, it is practically the same. The whole history of the Universe is the survival of the most stable. Biology is just one recent addition to this algorithm.

Edited for vocab.


ragdish
atheist
ragdish's picture
Posts: 461
Joined: 2007-12-31
User is offlineOffline
Jacob Cordingley

Jacob Cordingley wrote:

ragdish wrote:

In practically all atheist-theist debates, the question of why is the universe so intricately fine tuned or why is there a universe at all which sustains life. The traditional response to the theist's explanation of a Creator is how did the Creator come about?

I find an equally viable answer in neuroscience. All organisms with a complex nervous system seek patterns in nature. The human brain evolved the capacity for consciousness, language and symbols to reflect these regularities. We are carbon based pattern recognizing neural networks who have always sought to explain things. The modern product of our evolved cognition is mathematics which amazingly reflects the fundamental laws of nature. Our bewilderment as to why our universe is so fine tuned reflects our innate ability to recongize patterns and a need to explain them. And the best explanations are couched in science and mathematics. And yet our brains have a finite capacity, we can say why ad infinitum. Thus the supernatural explanation of "God did it" is unsatisfactory. We still say who, what, where, why and how.

I liken this to explaining what an electron looks like in macroscopic terms ie. shape, color, etc.. Yet our perception of an electron is contingent on the measuring apparatus (wave or particle) and the language of mathematics. We can never understand quantum mechanics because our brains evolved to perceive things macroscopically. Only our evolved capacity for language and symbols which ultimately led to mathematics and then measuring devices have we the ability to perceive an electron. It would be stupid to say only God knows what an electron looks like.

Sadly neuroscience might not sway a theist. Many theists, even liberal thinking theists are dualists and so believe that consciousness is also a supernatural force beyond the physical realities of the brain.

Although arguments from neuroscience could be persuasive, I don't think a staunch dualist would actually care for it, and even if he agreed with all the observable facts could still ask whether such and such a brain state actually causes a certain thought or whether it is just symptomatic of that thought generated by your supernatural mind.

I think another answer to the order-in-the-Universe question is this... In the universe there are stable and unstable structures. For example: let's say you have a spherical object and a cuboid object just floating around in space. If the objects are small both should in theory be stable because they have low gravitational pull. If however they are larger, say planet sized only the spherical object will be stable. This is because the strong gravitational pull of the cuboid will pull the corners in on themselves, until gradually the cuboid object will become spherical under the strain. If we look at bubbles in water, they too are spherical because for carrying air through water, any other shaped bubble could not come into existence because the laws of physics deem it unstable, in the freak event that such a bubble did come into being it last more than a nanosecond. This process is akin to natural selection. Indeed if we replace the word 'fittest' with 'most stable' and take out the replication element from the theory of natural selection, it is practically the same. The whole history of the Universe is the survival of the most stable. Biology is just one recent addition to this algorithm.

Edited for vocab.

I like your "survival of the most stable" explanation and I'm sure there are several different angles to defeat the theist argument. In regards to dualism, this frankly is a childish rejection of overwhelming evidence in neuroscience that all aspects of the mind including consciousness are the result of the neurophysiological activity of the brain. Dualism has as much validity as believing in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. If Wernicke's and Broca's area are permanently damaged then that individual has a permanent language impairment (ie. an aphasia). A dualist claims that the soul still possesses language. A person who has irreversible damage to the bilateral fusiform gyri will be unable to recognize previously familiar faces. Yet the dualist claims that the soul will recognize family members in an afterlife. A dualist claims that a person with advanced Alzheimer's disease has a soul that can think rationally with an intact memory. And goblins live in my attic when no one is looking and fairies live in treetops. Dualism has absolutely no supportive scientific evidence and is among the dumbest arguments for the existence of God and very similar to the introspective argument of "I personally feel the presence of the Lord" as being evidence. Any theist who seriously wants to make the case for the existence of God would be on very shaky ground using the dualism defense.


Jacob Cordingley
SuperfanBronze Member
Jacob Cordingley's picture
Posts: 1484
Joined: 2007-03-18
User is offlineOffline
I wholeheartedly agree with

I wholeheartedly agree with you dude. I never said otherwise. Of course they'd be on the shakier ground, but you'd have to debate with them on two fronts. on the dualist front and the theist front. These sort of people don't give up easily, even if they're quite obviously wrong, in verbal debate opening up a second front with a theist isn't the best idea. Mind you I'm terrible at verbal debate, because I'm quite slow witted what with dyslexia and all, give me a word-processor or pen and paper and I'd wipe the floor with them.


Nordmann
atheist
Nordmann's picture
Posts: 904
Joined: 2008-04-02
User is offlineOffline
The golden rule for debating

The golden rule for debating with a theist is always to follow his or her assertion with the question "On what evidence do you base that?" This will either elicit another assertion (against which your question should immediately be employed again) or something that is not evidence at all. In a formal debate it is a matter therefore of note-taking and writing down every assertion during your opponent's allotted speaking time. If your research is even half good you can destroy their testimony with logic blindfolded. Of course whether you convince your audience is a moot point, but that's true always. Most of them arrive predecided anyway. Also (and I've noticed this with some of the RRS interviews and debates) you run a real risk, having deduced how flawed your opponents' stance is and therefore vulnerable to logical assault, of sounding disinterested or smug with your rebuttal. This can potentially piss neutrals off who are following the debate and lead to votes against you on the day.

 

It is far more difficult to engage in debate with a scientific mind since you must assume that any assertion made does indeed have at least some form of justification based on empirical testing behind it, even if he or she mightn't be familiar with it. However a scientific mind employed to defend theism is probably the easiest to defeat in debate since your opponent knows full well when he or she has stepped over the line of logic and will often do half your work for you in attempting to belatedly dress assertion up as fact. Sometimes it is simply enough to repeat their statements and invite the audience to consider them again. Rhetoric is redundant when someone is hanging themselves, as Cicero once said, you need only to feed them more rope.

I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 4109
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
Theists that use this

Theists that use this 'improbable' argument are completely ignorant of statistics. The probability of anything that has already happened is always 1. Probabilities can only be applied to events for which there is incomplete information. If an event occurred the the probability that the event occurred is 1. There is no point in arguing any further with someone that does not understand this.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen