if only my politician's faith didn't affect decisions

shelley
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if only my politician's faith didn't affect decisions

"I couldn’t give a shit about my president’s private faith as long as it did not directly muddle their ability to rationally think through their job decisions." 

i'm getting really sick of this phrase.

(so as not to single out the above author who just happened to be the last person i've heard this from i should probably expand this defination to say that i'm sick of all the 'i don't have a problem with people's personal beliefs when they don't interfere with whatever' statements.)

i've been hesitant to come out and say how much this bothers me because i hear my friends say this all the damn time.  although i was just talking to nullesdeus on the phone and he understood what i was getting at so here goes:

 

ummm, hello?  that is the problem. 

 

 

how can people believe this irrational shit and have it not affect their life decisions?  i mean personal practices that don't affect others are things like - well, for example kinky sex with consenting partners behind closed doors.  i just don't see how you can believe in creationism or a second coming or whatever and have it not affect your thinking ability outside of sunday services. 

the line also comes across to me as the atheist version of the theist line "i was an atheist but..."  it's like the speaker is trying to soften the blow or something when really someone should just say dude, um, yeah, that's fucked up. 

thoughts?


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 Our president once told a

 Our president once told a crowd of people that he believed God spoke through him.  At first I was mortified, then it occurred to me it's exactly what religion was intended for...  people would stop questioning him if they thought he was divinely inspired.

 

That sort of nonsense scares the hell out of me.  Truly, bowel shaking paranoia sets in when people with access to nukes begin spouting such nonsense.  Also, it seems that 'they' (our leaders) are either saying it more, or I am paying more attention (either is possible).  It's gotten me to honestly consider finding another country to go to...   now if I could just find one that wanted me...

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shelleymtjoy wrote:"I

shelleymtjoy wrote:

"I couldn’t give a shit about my president’s private faith as long as it did not directly muddle their ability to rationally think through their job decisions." 

i'm getting really sick of this phrase.

(so as not to single out the above author who just happened to be the last person i've heard this from i should probably expand this defination to say that i'm sick of all the 'i don't have a problem with people's personal beliefs when they don't interfere with whatever' statements.)

i've been hesitant to come out and say how much this bothers me because i hear my friends say this all the damn time.  although i was just talking to nullesdeus on the phone and he understood what i was getting at so here goes:

 

ummm, hello?  that is the problem. 

Unfortunately, you're right in practically all cases.  Belief informs action, in almost every case.  That's why you don't have devout Hindus that eat cows, devout Jews who eat pork or devout Catholics who think abortion is ok.

I've met exactly three believers in my life who, in my opinion, "got it" about religion.  One was a Christian who thought abortion was wrong and so would not get one, but did not think it was an option that should be taken away from someone else.  Then there was the Hindu that used to buy burgers for the neighbourhood barbecues he'd throw because he knew everyone else would eat them.  The third was a Muslim woman from a devout family that felt her submission to god had zero to do with what anyone else felt was important, be that person Muslim or not.

Quote:

how can people believe this irrational shit and have it not affect their life decisions?  i mean personal practices that don't affect others are things like - well, for example kinky sex with consenting partners behind closed doors.  i just don't see how you can believe in creationism or a second coming or whatever and have it not affect your thinking ability outside of sunday services.

the line also comes across to me as the atheist version of the theist line "i was an atheist but..."  it's like the speaker is trying to soften the blow or something when really someone should just say dude, um, yeah, that's fucked up. 

thoughts?

I'm with you.  I think it's an escape hatch for people who are either 1) having a lot of wishful thinking about the ability of the human mind to compartmentalize or 2) don't want others to think they're "one of those dirty atheists" or something.

The problem is, belief is an action; just like speaking or voting.  Beliefs are not congenital conditions like fingerprints.  At some point, you made the decision to act as if your belief were true. If you believe something, it's because you made a choice.  If that choice was about something rational, great.  If that choice was about something bugfuck crazy, not so great.

And as an aside, it's the funtamentalists who usually have the kinkiest sexual proclivities.  When's the last time there was a sex scandal involving a Reform rabbi doing crank with a gay male prostitute or a Unitarian minister snorting coke off the thighs of a stripper?

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Balrogoz wrote:That sort of

Balrogoz wrote:

That sort of nonsense scares the hell out of me.  Truly, bowel shaking paranoia sets in when people with access to nukes begin spouting such nonsense.  Also, it seems that 'they' (our leaders) are either saying it more, or I am paying more attention (either is possible).  It's gotten me to honestly consider finding another country to go to...   now if I could just find one that wanted me...

Go North, Young (Wo)Man!

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shikko wrote:2) don't want

shikko wrote:

2) don't want others to think they're "one of those dirty atheists" or something.

exactly. 


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It depends. Obviously it's

It depends. Obviously it's almost impossible for a non-christian (let alone an atheist) to get elected in most of this country. More liberal areas will elect jews or even other believers - only the most liberal could elect an open atheist. I'm OK with them being Christian as long as they aren't extreme - ie wanting to force their shit on the rest of us, believing in a literal 6 day creation, or not believing evolution.

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I just had this discussion

I just had this discussion with a friend last night. He could not (or would not) grasp the idea that many of our greatest problems are directly or indirectly caused by blind faith in the unprovable. When I told him we needed to kill religion and get people focused on only that which can be verified he accused me of thinking exactly like theists. I asked him to point out the failing of my logic or where I made any spectacular claims not supported by evidence. He dodged it. We proceeded to go through who bears the burden of proof and all of that other crap. I have to say I'm more than a little disappointed to hear a lifelong atheist and one of the most skeptical people I've ever met engage in such sloppy thinking.

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shikko wrote:Go North, Young

shikko wrote:

Go North, Young (Wo)Man!

Canada: not only is it America's hat, they have an open immigration policy.  If you meet the criteria, you're in; no quotas!

 

Man.  Canada...   it's just so.. .  cold

 

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shikko wrote:Go North, Young

shikko wrote:

Go North, Young (Wo)Man!

Canada: not only is it America's hat, they have an open immigration policy.  If you meet the criteria, you're in; no quotas!

I've heard you guys don't really have freedom of speech there. Criticizing others will apparently get you charged with hate speech.

"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon

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shikko
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Balrogoz wrote:shikko

Balrogoz wrote:

shikko wrote:

Go North, Young (Wo)Man!

Canada: not only is it America's hat, they have an open immigration policy.  If you meet the criteria, you're in; no quotas!

Man.  Canada...   it's just so.. .  cold.

Like parts of the US aren't cold?  You even been through a northern midwest winter?  Granted, the winter starts earlier and ends later in most of Canada, but so what?  Go skiing!

 

 

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nutxaq wrote:shikko wrote:Go

nutxaq wrote:

shikko wrote:

Go North, Young (Wo)Man!

Canada: not only is it America's hat, they have an open immigration policy.  If you meet the criteria, you're in; no quotas!

I've heard you guys don't really have freedom of speech there. Criticizing others will apparently get you charged with hate speech.

Yes and no.  Freedom of speech is a Charter right, but there is currently a problem with how hate speech is defined, and the Human Rights Tribunal having too much power.  I think that will actually get fixed in the next few years as political correctness/oversensitivity continues to wane.

Come on, Canada: making someone feel badly about the choices they make does not entail a human rights violation.

 

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nutxaq
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shikko wrote:Yes and no. 

shikko wrote:

Yes and no.  Freedom of speech is a Charter right, but there is currently a problem with how hate speech is defined, and the Human Rights Tribunal having too much power.  I think that will actually get fixed in the next few years as political correctness/oversensitivity continues to wane.

Come on, Canada: making someone feel badly about the choices they make does not entail a human rights violation.

 

You guys fix that and I just might join you.

"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
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I'm waiting a while before I

I'm waiting a while before I decide to move.  If McCain gets elected it may depend on who his veep will be.  If it's Huckafuck I'll be on the next plane, bus, train, whatever to get the hell out of Dodge.  If it's (unfortunately the best choice with a chance to win) Obama I'll wait to see what he does with the faith based crap.  If he expands it without stringent oversight that is enforced I can live with that so long as organizations like Americans United are able to continue bringing lawsuits against violators including the government.

The only problem I'd have with Canada would be once the U.S. becomes a theocracy, them bastards could simply invade to bring christianity to the heathens in the north.

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Oh Canada

 

      All athiests are welcome up here, eh.   Our charter of rights isn't has bad has you  make it to be,  it also helps to keep the proslytizing down to a managable bore.  Remember shouting any religious dogma is a direct insult to all other religions; this violates the Charter,  and faith heeling for profit is a rare event, they could get sued without a proper disclaimer.

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I agree with you Shelly

I agree with you Shelly %100. I have the same problem getting the point across to my friends. Sad I'm def. moving. Period. I'll move quicker if McCain is elected. Canada is a possibility, but I think I'm going to try England or Southern France. SF has the huge plus of being in the perfect location to get some of the best cooking in the world. ^_^


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Muslims Dude

Medievalguy wrote:

I agree with you Shelly %100. I have the same problem getting the point across to my friends. Sad I'm def. moving. Period. I'll move quicker if McCain is elected. Canada is a possibility, but I think I'm going to try England or Southern France. SF has the huge plus of being in the perfect location to get some of the best cooking in the world. ^_^

France also boasts one of the fastest growing Muslim populations.

"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
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remember as well

Jeffrick wrote:

 

      All athiests are welcome up here, eh.   Our charter of rights isn't has bad has you  make it to be,  it also helps to keep the proslytizing down to a managable bore.  Remember shouting any religious dogma is a direct insult to all other religions; this violates the Charter,  and faith heeling for profit is a rare event, they could get sued without a proper disclaimer.

Our news guys have actually gone after so called faith healers for their claims, the likes of Benny hinn aren't exactly welcomed by the media and the public in general (although we do have a lot of religious folks that come from everywhere including the northern states when he does come) as they tend to want proof of such miraculous healings....and we don't just let it slide with oh god works in mysterious ways.


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nutxaq wrote:When I told him

nutxaq wrote:

When I told him we needed to kill religion and get people focused on only that which can be verified he accused me of thinking exactly like theists.

Whoa there. You want to "kill religion"? I think 9 out of 10 people would think you are advocating genocide. If someone said they were out to "kill atheism" I would assume they want to start a pogrom or something. Maybe you could phrase that more along the lines of "convince people to stop believing in sky faeries."

Also, about Canada: too cold and no right to bear arms keeps me from doing more than visiting. Though if you don't mind the cold and don't care about guns, then it might be a good place to move to.

 

Bulldog wrote:

If it's Huckafuck I'll be on the next plane, bus, train, whatever to get the hell out of Dodge.

*Shudder* That is one of the scariest things I have ever read. McCain is old enough to die in office of natural causes. Which means whatever asshat he gets to be a VP might have a good chance of being the President.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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latincanuck wrote:Our news

latincanuck wrote:

Our news guys have actually gone after so called faith healers for their claims, the likes of Benny hinn aren't exactly welcomed by the media and the public in general (although we do have a lot of religious folks that come from everywhere including the northern states when he does come) as they tend to want proof of such miraculous healings....and we don't just let it slide with oh god works in mysterious ways.

The incident I had in mind was an anchor criticizing Islam and a certain cleric. I read about it on RichardDawkins.net but I couldn't find the article.

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but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
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nutxaq
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Jormungander wrote:nutxaq

Jormungander wrote:

nutxaq wrote:

When I told him we needed to kill religion and get people focused on only that which can be verified he accused me of thinking exactly like theists.

Whoa there. You want to "kill religion"? I think 9 out of 10 people would think you are advocating genocide. If someone said they were out to "kill atheism" I would assume they want to start a pogrom or something. Maybe you could phrase that more along the lines of "convince people to stop believing in sky faeries."

I don't remember if I said "kill" specifically, but even if I had this person is smart enough to know what I mean.

"Faith, Faith is an island in the setting sun,
but proof, proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Proof, Paul Simon

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shelleymtjoy wrote:how can

shelleymtjoy wrote:
how can people believe this irrational shit and have it not affect their life decisions?  i mean personal practices that don't affect others are things like - well, for example kinky sex with consenting partners behind closed doors.  i just don't see how you can believe in creationism or a second coming or whatever and have it not affect your thinking ability outside of sunday services. 

the line also comes across to me as the atheist version of the theist line "i was an atheist but..."  it's like the speaker is trying to soften the blow or something when really someone should just say dude, um, yeah, that's fucked up. 

thoughts?

It depends on the degree to which they believe in such things.  Most christians here in Australia are what is referred to as "twice a year christians" at most, their beliefs is something that is little more than background noise.  When making choices they would weigh up the evidence.  In the examples of creationism and second coming for the people I'm talking about, they believe it but it's not something they ever think about.  It's more a case of them being old earth creationists at most who follow the scientific explanation or what is more common amongst those I've spoken to, the creationist idea is now just fiction and the old way of explaining things before we really knew what was going on ... the events are rationalised as being on some plane other than the one we live on.  Second coming, once again they're more concerned about their lives and living them.  It'll happen when it happens.  Any further prodding in regards to either of these questions results in a "Who knows?  Who cares?" 

Our ex minister for health (Tony Abott) wasn't one of these people.  Despite overwhelming evidence he, on numerous occasions (the two better known being a cervix cancer related one and one to help avoid pregnancy), took the religious stance and blocked federal incentives or even approval for drugs which had been fully tested and deemed safe, while other things not related to sex that hadn't been fully tested were let through.  Fortunately on the two occasions that came to mind, his own staff rebelled and managed to overrule his decisions allowing these things through.

Back to those who don't know and don't care, they aren't completely admonished(I think that's the word I'm after?), as has been covered numerous times they're still providing protection for the more fundy people out there such as Tony Abott, and he pales in comparison to the fundies you get out in your neck of the woods.

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