Free Will or God's Pawns?

GaiusJanus
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Free Will or God's Pawns?

Seems like Pharaoh is a pawn in this instance... (Not to mention Moses' loss of his right to just go his own way.)

Any more?

Exodus 4:21

21. And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

The last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument: "It came from god."


MattShizzle
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Kind of puts the thing they

Kind of puts the thing they constantly spew about God not interfering with free will in the shitter.

 

 


Wonko
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GaiusJanus wrote:Seems like

GaiusJanus wrote:

Seems like Pharaoh is a pawn in this instance... (Not to mention Moses' loss of his right to just go his own way.)

Any more?

Exodus 4:21

21. And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Yes, you could say "pawn", although marionette  was my initial thought.

Exodus=treacherous and despicable

I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman, "Where's the self-help section?"
She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.

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If one accepts that God is

If one accepts that God is all-knowing (sorry I don't know if there is a biblical quote for this, but all the christians I've met do believe this) then how could we possilbly have free will?  If God knows everything then he must also know everything that we are going to do, hence what we are going to do is already predetermined.


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Free Will

There is nothing in the Bible that says we have free will.  Any 'Christian' that tells you so does not know the scriptures.  Predestination does not mean you're getting to heavan no matter what you do.

 

dp

 


theist
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Actually, there are many

Actually, there are many Christians who do NOT believe in "free will" as taught today by many churches. In fact, Baptists, Presbyterians, and other denominations who have their roots in the Reformation stem from view points that man never seeks God on his own, even if their followers today believe in "free will", their founders did not.

Reformed theology that came from Luther, Calvin, and others during the reformation claims the scriptures never claimed this.

 

Here is a website that endorses Reformed Theology.

 

www.monergism.com   (I know the name is weired; it means something about the Holy Spirit calling people to be saved or something)

 

Also, you could check out Martin Luther's book "Bondage of the Will"

I don't want to debate if humans have free will, I just want to show many believers don't believe in free will like some Christians present it today.


greek goddess
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theist wrote:Also, you could

theist wrote:

Also, you could check out Martin Luther's book "Bondage of the Will"

Well who doesn't love bondage?

I grew up being taught in the reformed tradition, and honestly, the free will thing never made much sense to me (among other more fundamental things). It's not something I really worry about anymore.

I will say that I'm not sure total free will exists in modern society. Everything is within context. For instance, if you are within a certain social class, you do not have the option to spend your money on certain things (if you aim for financial responsibility, that is). If you are married, it is generally unacceptable to have intimate relations with other people. Of course, in other societies, norms may be different - to reiterate, it depends on context. Sometimes, circumstances make it clear that one option is better or more profitable in the long run than another, even though both may be viable options.

But one DOES have free will in choosing the options available to him or her. Whether you make a "good" or "bad" decision is left to society to judge. But one is perfectly capable of choosing either, in the absence of any divine intervention.


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we do have free will, its

we do have free will, its just governed by a corrupt heart.

If anyone comes to god its because god has come to him first.

 

i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name Laughing out loud


DeLgAdO
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in your view, it sounds like

in your view, it sounds like anything goes.

no wonder we live in a world full of madness.

moral standards must be absolute.

 

two belief systems cannot be right, logic tells us either one is right or they are both wrong.

i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name Laughing out loud


Jeffrick
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DeLgAdO

DeLgAdO wrote:

in your view, it sounds like anything goes.

no wonder we live in a world full of madness.

moral standards must be absolute.

 

two belief systems cannot be right, logic tells us either one is right or they are both wrong.

     You seem to be quite bigoted against any religion that is not your own.  I'm an equal oppertunity atheist I don't believe in all religions equally.

jeffrick


DeLgAdO
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they are all wrong, i didnt

they are all wrong, i didnt convert from atheism because i needed a religion to believe in something to fell better or escape the fear of death. I was not affraid to die i wanted to cut my wrist and end it all afew years ago, and counciling didnt help.

look at each religions world view and youll find christianity fits our reality perfectly.

 

i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name Laughing out loud


JillSwift
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DeLgAdO wrote:look at each

DeLgAdO wrote:
look at each religions world view and youll find christianity fits our reality perfectly.
There was a time I thought that, too. But then the drugs wore off.

 

˙plɹoʍ uʍop-ǝpısdn oɹɐzzıq ǝɯos uı ɯ,ı ǝʞıl lǝǝɟ ǝɯ sǝʞɐɯ ʇsıuoıʇɐǝɹɔ ɐ ɥʇıʍ ƃuınƃɹɐ 'sǝɯıʇǝɯos


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DeLgAdO wrote:they are all

DeLgAdO wrote:

they are all wrong, i didnt convert from atheism because i needed a religion to believe in something to fell better or escape the fear of death. I was not affraid to die i wanted to cut my wrist and end it all afew years ago, and counciling didnt help.

look at each religions world view and youll find christianity fits our reality perfectly.

 

Do you happen to remember why you were an Atheist?

Do you know why you suddenly became a christian?

What sect of christianity?

I've looked at christianity and cannot see how it fits our reality so I would ask you to please explain further. While you're at it, tell us about the other religions views and how they differ greatly from christianity. If you're not willing to do the work, we cannot help you.

I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman, "Where's the self-help section?"
She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.

~ Steven Wright


DeLgAdO
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Wonko wrote:DeLgAdO

Wonko wrote:

DeLgAdO wrote:

they are all wrong, i didnt convert from atheism because i needed a religion to believe in something to fell better or escape the fear of death. I was not affraid to die i wanted to cut my wrist and end it all afew years ago, and counciling didnt help.

look at each religions world view and youll find christianity fits our reality perfectly.

 

Do you happen to remember why you were an Atheist?

Do you know why you suddenly became a christian?

What sect of christianity?

I've looked at christianity and cannot see how it fits our reality so I would ask you to please explain further. While you're at it, tell us about the other religions views and how they differ greatly from christianity. If you're not willing to do the work, we cannot help you.

 

Go to saudi arabia or iran and preach christ, im sure they will welcome you with open arms.

i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name Laughing out loud


JillSwift
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DeLgAdO wrote:Go to saudi

DeLgAdO wrote:
Go to saudi arabia or iran and preach christ, im sure they will welcome you with open arms.
Hmm. Are you a-trollin'?


 

˙plɹoʍ uʍop-ǝpısdn oɹɐzzıq ǝɯos uı ɯ,ı ǝʞıl lǝǝɟ ǝɯ sǝʞɐɯ ʇsıuoıʇɐǝɹɔ ɐ ɥʇıʍ ƃuınƃɹɐ 'sǝɯıʇǝɯos


DeLgAdO
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JillSwift wrote:DeLgAdO

JillSwift wrote:

DeLgAdO wrote:
Go to saudi arabia or iran and preach christ, im sure they will welcome you with open arms.
Hmm. Are you a-trollin'?


 

 

look

 

he saying "tell us about the other religions views and how they differ greatly from christianity."

ill compare two: islam and christianity

 

go to islamic countrys like saudi arabia or iran and preach christ. Say your last goodbyes if you do decide to go.

Oh but theyre not that different right?!?!

i am theist and i dont know how to put it under my name Laughing out loud


Wonko
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DeLgAdO wrote:JillSwift

DeLgAdO wrote:

JillSwift wrote:

DeLgAdO wrote:
Go to saudi arabia or iran and preach christ, im sure they will welcome you with open arms.

Hmm. Are you a-trollin'?  

 

look 

he saying "tell us about the other religions views and how they differ greatly from christianity."

ill compare two: islam and christianity

 

go to islamic countrys like saudi arabia or iran and preach christ. Say your last goodbyes if you do decide to go.

Oh but theyre not that different right?!?!

I'm an Atheist. So I doubt I'd be preaching the word of any fairytale.

You are aware however, that Muslims view jeebus as a saviour, as the annointed one, as a servant and prophet of/for the people, aren't you ???

Additionally, by and large, Muslims believe that any person who claims to be Muslim must believe in all of the scriptural prophets, Jesus included.

And you no doubt are aware that, just like christians, Muslims believe that jeebus could raise the dead and heal the sick.

They are many, many more similarities between the two religions. They are closely linked.

Please though, do consider answering all of my questions if you have come here to RRS forums to seek advice and help. This will help us better understand you. Well, least it would be a start.

I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman, "Where's the self-help section?"
She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose.

~ Steven Wright