SVT's rant: On the Discovery Channel CavePersons

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SVT's rant: On the Discovery Channel CavePersons

When I discovered that my weekly dose of Mythbusters and Dirty Jobs had been replaced with a caveman special, I was...nonplussed, but after some diabolical swearing, I decided that poor brain-food was better than none. After all, it couldn't possibly be worse than the dinosaur special two years ago which said "some dinosaurs digest with the assistance of stones in their intestines called 'gastropods.'" (The correct word is gastrolith: a gastropod is a snail.)

O how lamentably in err twas I.

Now I'm sure that there has to be something scientific going on in the paleoanthropology field, but what Discovery Channel aired, it is not. Even by subjecting it to moderately critical scrutiny, one can see that the assertions are at best quite poorly founded when alternative explanations exist, and at worst are arguments from silence totally derived from evolutionary dogma.

The program consisted of crude drawings of Neanderthal cavepersons (in this day and age, one must be gender neutral, after all)  having coprolites beat out of them by how much better homo sapiens were, in tool, thought, and form.

The cloistered-minded theist skeptic in me started screaming right about now: "You and what samples?" he  pried.

Well, as is, they did make one cryptic reference to how few samples there are: "It is difficult to draw conclusions when all of Neanderthal and early human remains could fit into a pickup truck." (the preceeding quote was done from memory: it may be off by a few words.)

To put how insignificant that sample size is in context, I'm thinking of another prehistoric creature we know quite a bit about which -like early hominids- had quite a large range, but unlike homo sapiens, all fossils of this creature are 65 million years old plus. We would have difficulties putting all of the samples of this species into an 80 car freight train.

Now, maybe using Iguanadon is a bit unfair: it is generally considered to be the most successful land animal of all time, but consider the following:

1. Hominids (homo sapiens, at least) have a long history of burying their dead. Iguanadon had a long history of being eaten. Granted that decay is going to occur to both, I wonder which is more conducive to (at least partial) fossil formation.

2. The oldest hominid fossil is about 7 million years old, the youngest Iguanadon fossil is 65 million years old.  Erosion must be content-selective.

3. Hominids have tool effects, like hand axes. Iguanadon did not.

Now, with all this in mind, am I the only one suspecting that another solution is in order?

The program also had experts trying to sequence DNA from Neanderthal bones. They (the experts) noted how difficult it was to sequence genes from a fossil that had been intruded by bacteria and fungi. The program then concluded (without quoting an expert, I noted) that while Chimpanzes are 97%  similar to humans, Neanderthals appear to have been much closer: 99.9% similar. Close enough for the program to briefly consider interbreeding.

One expert did note that the differences between humans is about 1 per thousand (I don't recall any unit being given) while the difference between Neanderthals and humans appears to have been 2 or 3 per thousand.

Before I go any further -not to put any one in particular on the spot- I would like a geneticist to tell me that a heavily damaged and very old sample can yield results to within 0.1% accuracy in the first place. I'm willing to wager that the results are within the study's margin of error (which is why they didn't get a geneticist on camera: he would be saying that the sample was indistinguishable from human remains) but I digress.

Then my degenerate theist mind struck at an alternative explanation: it would explain the present fossils just as well for them to be diseased modern species (human or ape) but this would also explain why there are so few fossils: there aren't that many of what you are looking for.

Now, I know that diseases can do some funny things to the body: Acromegaly and Cushings appear to run in my family, and I can tell how they can distort the body just from thumbing through a family album.

Now, determining which is the better solution is a decision I leave to you, but regardless of which you choose, I hope that you can understand why I have come to the conclusion I have.

"Truth is the cry of all, but the game of the few." George Berkeley
"Truth is always strange — stranger than fiction." Lord Byron

Fixing the world, one dumb idea at a time.


jcgadfly
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Interesting stuff - I didn't

Interesting stuff - I didn't watch those specials.

 

My question to you is : Is "God did it" a solution or an excuse to stop looking for one?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:Interesting

jcgadfly wrote:

Interesting stuff - I didn't watch those specials.

 

My question to you is : Is "God did it" a solution or an excuse to stop looking for one?

Your argument is a two-edged sword.

Asserting the fossils of "early hominids" are of diseased individuals of modern species =/= Asserting "God did it."

One is a hypothesis that can be supported, defended, or refuted by empirical evidence, the other is a tautology that could explain everything and therefore cannot illuminate on anything.

This is exactly like "survival of the fittest." It's a tautology (that, just like "God did it," explains whatever happens, and therefore explains nothing) and is not a scientific hypothesis. You can have hypotheses under broader metaphysical tautologies, but seeing as we both have metaphysical tautologies, that would be pointless.

"Truth is the cry of all, but the game of the few." George Berkeley
"Truth is always strange — stranger than fiction." Lord Byron

Fixing the world, one dumb idea at a time.


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Sir Valiant for Truth

Sir Valiant for Truth wrote:

Well, as is, they did make one cryptic reference to how few samples there are: "It is difficult to draw conclusions when all of Neanderthal and early human remains could fit into a pickup truck." (the preceeding quote was done from memory: it may be off by a few words.)

To put how insignificant that sample size is in context, I'm thinking of another prehistoric creature we know quite a bit about which -like early hominids- had quite a large range, but unlike homo sapiens, all fossils of this creature are 65 million years old plus. We would have difficulties putting all of the samples of this species into an 80 car freight train.

One reason for the paucity of hominid remains is that hominids have only been around about 6 million years and for most of that time had very small populations, while Igaunodons were around for about 80 million years and had large, widespread populations.

Also, the term "early humans" could refer just to the genus Homo, which has only been around about 2.5 million years.

And where exactly did you get the idea that "We would have difficulties putting all of the samples of [Iguanodon] into an 80 car freight train."? Was that figure given in the documentary, as well? Or did you read it somewhere else? (If so, please provide the source.) Or did you just make it up?


jcgadfly
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Sir Valiant for Truth

Sir Valiant for Truth wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Interesting stuff - I didn't watch those specials.

 

My question to you is : Is "God did it" a solution or an excuse to stop looking for one?

Your argument is a two-edged sword.

Asserting the fossils of "early hominids" are of diseased individuals of modern species =/= Asserting "God did it."

One is a hypothesis that can be supported, defended, or refuted by empirical evidence, the other is a tautology that could explain everything and therefore cannot illuminate on anything.

This is exactly like "survival of the fittest." It's a tautology (that, just like "God did it," explains whatever happens, and therefore explains nothing) and is not a scientific hypothesis. You can have hypotheses under broader metaphysical tautologies, but seeing as we both have metaphysical tautologies, that would be pointless.

It's also fortunate that natural selection and "survival of the fittest" aren't equivalent terms.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Hey Valient, do you remember

Hey Valient, do you remember the part where Hamby laid you out and exposed you as the liar and fraud you are, who knows science like I know quantum physics?

Maybe after you get a grasp on what science is, and decide to act with more honesty, the Discovery Channel specials won't frustrate you as much anymore.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Sir Valiant for Truth

Sir Valiant for Truth wrote:

The cloistered-minded theist skeptic in me started screaming right about now: "You and what samples?" he  pried.

...Is this the same 'sketpic' who's apparently snoozing when the Bible is trotted out, by chance? Sticking out tongue

What samples? Of early hominids? These ones, of course:

 

 

...Valient, watch this, and gain at least rudimentary knowledge of Human Ancestry. After this, if you keep spitting-out idiocy, we'll have to make you look stupid again. Sticking out tongue

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Kevin R Brown wrote:Hey

Kevin R Brown wrote:

Hey Valient, do you remember the part where Hamby laid you out and exposed you as the liar and fraud you are, who knows science like I know quantum physics?

Maybe after you get a grasp on what science is, and decide to act with more honesty, the Discovery Channel specials won't frustrate you as much anymore.

(*Chortle*)

...Remind me: which of us here is posting a coherent position and which of us is using question begging epithets? If I'm a liar and a fraud who knows nothing about science... exactly what does that make you?

EDIT: This is sig stuff: Both Kevin and I are trying to be smug. The problem is that I'm doing it a little more eloquently than his "You're a liar and a fraud."

"Truth is the cry of all, but the game of the few." George Berkeley
"Truth is always strange — stranger than fiction." Lord Byron

Fixing the world, one dumb idea at a time.


jcgadfly
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I'd never say you know

I'd never say you know nothing about science, SVT. you and your apologist/scientists know just enough to get it horribly wrong.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin