Is Evolution Rational?

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Is Evolution Rational?

Hopefully I'm on the right section of the forum but hey - I reckon this is as good a section as anywhere.

I was just thinking about Evolution, more particularly the more complex development of creatures through natural selection...

This isn't a "God exists cos evolution... etc" thread (or at least my intention is that it won't be) but I just wanted to know whether people think that the long term concept of cells transforming to complex organisms, fish developing legs etc. is a completely rational idea or whether it is merely an interesting theory.

 

Ali


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Quote:This isn't a "God

Quote:

This isn't a "God exists cos evolution... etc" thread (or at least my intention is that it won't be) but I just wanted to know whether people think that the long term concept of cells transforming to complex organisms, fish developing legs etc. is a completely rational idea or whether it is merely an interesting theory.

Cells do not "transform" into complex organisms. Via endless rounds of natural selection, genotypic modification and selection gives rise to incremental phenotypic modifications and divergent lineages. As for evolution, it is an "interesting theory" since a "theory" is a body of scientific explanations for phenomenon supported by testable predictions and evidence. No doubt the word you meant to use was "hypothesis". Evolution, fitting all of our testable predictions in the same manner as any other well-founded theory would, is on no worse epistemological ground than cell theory or atomic theory.

Thus we encounter books that use quantum mechanics as a justification for an array of metaphysical and spiritual beliefs written by people who would be unable to interpret a Feynman diagram or recognize, much less solve, a simple work function problem, articles smugly asserting that certain structures and organisms could not possibly have evolved, whose authors would be unable to draw a Punnett Square, brazen proclamations that evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics from people who would be unable to calculate enthalpy changes, use the combined gas law or solve a simple problem of dynamic equilibrium
-Me


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Evolution is far from "an

Evolution is far from "an interesting theory."  It is the foundation of all modern biological science, including a great deal of pharmacology.  It is true with as much certainty as gravity.  You do know that gravity is a theory, right?

In science, the word "theory" doesn't mean the same as when we use it in everyday speech.  A theory is a set of principles which try to explain a phenomenon.  In other words, gravity exists as a fact, and the theory of gravity tries to explain how and why it happens.  In the same way, evolution absolutely exists, with certainty, and the theory of evolution tries to explain how and why evolution happens.

I cannot stress this emphatically enough.  There is no doubt whatsoever within the legitimate biology community that evolution occurs.  There is some debate about elements of our explanations of it, but rest assured, it is the process by which life has become what it is today.

 

If superior creatures from space ever visit earth, the first question they will ask, in order to assess the level of our civilization, is: 'Have they discovered evolution yet?' -- Richard Dawkins


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Forgive me for not writing

Forgive me for not writing "group" of cells.

Forgive me for using a synonym for "hypothesis" instead of "hypothesis" itself. If you want to waste time with unneccessary technical definitions of the words I used in my question how will we actually address the point?

Also forgive me for asking if you intentionally threw a pile of words at me that really weren't needed?

 

And evolution isn't in any way as simple as cell theory and atomic theory, nor surely is it as observable due to the relatively vast time window.

 

Ali


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Quote:Forgive me for using a

Quote:

Forgive me for using a synonym for "hypothesis" instead of "hypothesis" itself.

As has just been established, the words hypothesis and theory mean totally different things.

Quote:

And evolution isn't in any way as simple as cell theory and atomic theory, nor surely is it as observable due to the relatively vast time window.

Where did I say evolution was "as simple" as cell or atomic theory? I didn't. I said from an epistemological standpoint it is on no worse ground. This means a completely different thing to simplicity. I shall repeat myself yet again: Evolution fulfills all of our testable predictions and is a well-founded scientific theory.

Quote:

Also forgive me for asking if you intentionally threw a pile of words at me that really weren't needed?

I did not "throw a pile of words" at you. I gave a highly precise and technical description of what evolution actually entails to counter your confused strawman.

Thus we encounter books that use quantum mechanics as a justification for an array of metaphysical and spiritual beliefs written by people who would be unable to interpret a Feynman diagram or recognize, much less solve, a simple work function problem, articles smugly asserting that certain structures and organisms could not possibly have evolved, whose authors would be unable to draw a Punnett Square, brazen proclamations that evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics from people who would be unable to calculate enthalpy changes, use the combined gas law or solve a simple problem of dynamic equilibrium
-Me


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Hambydammit wrote:Evolution

Hambydammit wrote:

Evolution is far from "an interesting theory."  It is the foundation of all modern biological science, including a great deal of pharmacology.  It is true with as much certainty as gravity.  You do know that gravity is a theory, right?

In science, the word "theory" doesn't mean the same as when we use it in everyday speech.  A theory is a set of principles which try to explain a phenomenon.  In other words, gravity exists as a fact, and the theory of gravity tries to explain how and why it happens.  In the same way, evolution absolutely exists, with certainty, and the theory of evolution tries to explain how and why evolution happens.

I cannot stress this emphatically enough.  There is no doubt whatsoever within the legitimate biology community that evolution occurs.  There is some debate about elements of our explanations of it, but rest assured, it is the process by which life has become what it is today.

 

 

Hey, thanks for the response.

How is pharmacology based on evolution?

And how is it the foundation of all modern biological science?

I was using "theory" in a more conversational way than the precise scientific definition, I apologise for any confusion I caused.

Ok, its fine you saying that there "isn't any doubt in the legitimate bio.." but let's not let that take away from our own thinking...

 

 

 

Just out of interest do people see any faults in Evolutionary theory?


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Quote:How is pharmacology

Quote:

How is pharmacology based on evolution?

Need to track how bacteria become resistant to drugs and modify accordingly. It was a total disaster when plasmodium falciparum (malarial parasite) became resistant to chloroquine, by evolving a new type of transport pump to remove the drug from its interior, and when cancer cells pump chemo toxins out of their cells by evolving new types of transport pumps.

Quote:

And how is it the foundation of all modern biological science?

Biology is made up of different disciplines. They are listed as such:

Microbiology: The study of microorganisms

Molecular and Cellular Biology (that's mine): The study of cellular mechanisms and biological molecules and their interactions with each other

Developmental Biology: The study of development of organisms in embryonic development and the germination of seeds into plants

Anatomy: The study of the interior of animals and their internal organs and structures

Zoology: The study of animals, their behaivour and interactions

Botany: The study of plants, their internal mechanism

Genetics: The study of genes, how they interact, make up the organism, move through populations and

Ecology: the study of populations, how they interact with their environment, how they grow, decline, the mechanisms of expansion, etc.

Evolutionary Biology: The study of how lineages change over time and how natural selection applies to different populations, and the mechanisms behind variation

This all seems somewhat disjointed, but it is possible to draw a diagram which represents the relationship between the fields in biology. For example, studying developmental biology, one might study the genes responsible for building organisms and controlling embroynic development, and the resulting developmental plans. Hence there would be a link between genetics and developmental biology, and this would be a subdiscipline called "developmental genetics". It is possible to draw relationships between the fields in biology in a similar manner to generate all the subdisciplines. Not all subdisciplines would be meaningful, or exist. For example, there is no such thing as "microbiological anatomy" since anatomy is the study of internal organs. But in the center of all the disciplines is evolutionary biology. Evolution unifies all of the disciplines into a cohenerent picture of biological life. Via evolution, anatomical changes can be studied in terms of genetics. Via evolution, the movement of genes can be studied in terms of ecology, and zoology can be studied in terms of genetics, etc. etc. Evolution links all the disciplines in biology together. Without it, biology would be disjointed nonsense.

 

Thus we encounter books that use quantum mechanics as a justification for an array of metaphysical and spiritual beliefs written by people who would be unable to interpret a Feynman diagram or recognize, much less solve, a simple work function problem, articles smugly asserting that certain structures and organisms could not possibly have evolved, whose authors would be unable to draw a Punnett Square, brazen proclamations that evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics from people who would be unable to calculate enthalpy changes, use the combined gas law or solve a simple problem of dynamic equilibrium
-Me


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deludedgod

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

Forgive me for using a synonym for "hypothesis" instead of "hypothesis" itself.

Have you even read the post under discussion? As has just been established, the words hypothesis and theory mean totally different things.

Quote:

And evolution isn't in any way as simple as cell theory and atomic theory, nor surely is it as observable due to the relatively vast time window.

Where did I say evolution was "as simple" as cell or atomic theory? I didn't. I said from an epistemological standpoint it is on no worse ground. This means a completely different thing to simplicity. I shall repeat myself yet again: Evolution fulfills all of our testable predictions and is a well-founded scientific theory.

Quote:

Also forgive me for asking if you intentionally threw a pile of words at me that really weren't needed?

I did not "throw a pile of words" at you. I gave a highly precise and technical description of what evolution actually entails to counter your confused strawman.

 

Great... We are already arguing and I've only just started the thread.

Sorry if I am not wording my posts very correctly or friendlily - I'm lying half asleep in bed (2:40am in this nice non-america).

 

I will point out that I didn't say that you said it was simple - it was merely one of the points I mentioned to try and describe my doubt that they are similar in their evidencial strength. Our testible predictions are, once again, surely on a very small time frame in relation to the concept of evolution itself - I know its the best proof that we can provide of it but, compared to eg cell development your ability to truely test the theory is a lot more limited.

 

I know you were just trying to help by giving me the definition but I didn't ask for it (that's why I thought it was unneccessary)... plus you could have put it in much simpler terms for us 'lesser' people to understand.

 

What straw man did I make?


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Quote:How is pharmacology

Quote:
How is pharmacology based on evolution?

DG answered this.

Quote:
And how is it the foundation of all modern biological science?

Read this essay:

What's So Great About Sex?

There's a lot of information about how evolution works through sexual reproduction to "auto-correct" harmful mutations and combat microbial invaders.  This is one example of how biology is dependent on evolution.  For every topic you can think of that deals with complete organisms, you can get down to a cellular level, and you'll need evolution to explain how most things happen.

Quote:
I was using "theory" in a more conversational way than the precise scientific definition, I apologise for any confusion I caused.

It's a crucial distinction.  No apology necessary.  If you are going to talk about evolution, you're talking about science, and you need to use the scientific meaning, or we'll just talk past each other.

Quote:
Ok, its fine you saying that there "isn't any doubt in the legitimate bio.." but let's not let that take away from our own thinking...

Think all you want, but until you have a post graduate degree in a biological discipline, you're not going to have the necessary understanding to even consider questioning evolution.

 

If superior creatures from space ever visit earth, the first question they will ask, in order to assess the level of our civilization, is: 'Have they discovered evolution yet?' -- Richard Dawkins


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My apologies. I just got

My apologies. I just got somewhat irked by your misunderstanding of what the words "evolution" and "theory" mean. You can't understand how frustrating it is unless you deal on a regular basis with people who make a living confusing other people about evolution.

Thus we encounter books that use quantum mechanics as a justification for an array of metaphysical and spiritual beliefs written by people who would be unable to interpret a Feynman diagram or recognize, much less solve, a simple work function problem, articles smugly asserting that certain structures and organisms could not possibly have evolved, whose authors would be unable to draw a Punnett Square, brazen proclamations that evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics from people who would be unable to calculate enthalpy changes, use the combined gas law or solve a simple problem of dynamic equilibrium
-Me


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Ali wrote:Hopefully I'm on

Ali wrote:

Hopefully I'm on the right section of the forum but hey - I reckon this is as good a section as anywhere.

I was just thinking about Evolution, more particularly the more complex development of creatures through natural selection...

This isn't a "God exists cos evolution... etc" thread (or at least my intention is that it won't be) but I just wanted to know whether people think that the long term concept of cells transforming to complex organisms, fish developing legs etc. is a completely rational idea or whether it is merely an interesting theory.

 

Ali

Your last sentence especially is throwing me. You're making it sound as though “theory” is the opposite of “rational”. So I'm wondering who you are defining both words.


It also bears pointing out the difference concerning the theory of evolution versus the fact of evolution. It is a well established fact that, if you look in older fossil bearing rocks, the tendency is to find fossils of less complex life. Whatever the cause might be that life on earth became progressively more complex through the ages (which can only be dismissed by denying an enormous amount of evidence), the fact that it did is empirically established beyond a doubt. So the question then becomes: “why did this happen”. That is the theory portion of things. On this there is some debate as to exactly why and how though natural selection still is a basic concept. A discussion on that point is beyond what I know a great deal about, so I'll leave it to more capable hands, but I see no reason that answers provided entirely on the basis of naturalism cannot suffice to explain it all.


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deludedgod wrote:Quote:How

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

How is pharmacology based on evolution?

Need to track how bacteria become resistant to drugs and modify accordingly. It was a total disaster when plasmodium falciparum (malarial parasite) became resistant to chloroquine, by evolving a new type of transport pump to remove the drug from its interior, and when cancer cells pump chemo toxins out of their cells by evolving new types of transport pumps.

Quote:

And how is it the foundation of all modern biological science?

Biology is made up of different disciplines. They are listed as such:

Microbiology: The study of microorganisms

Molecular and Cellular Biology (that's mine): The study of cellular mechanisms and biological molecules and their interactions with each other

Developmental Biology: The study of development of organisms in embryonic development and the germination of seeds into plants

Anatomy: The study of the interior of animals and their internal organs and structures

Zoology: The study of animals, their behaivour and interactions

Botany: The study of plants, their internal mechanism

Genetics: The study of genes, how they interact, make up the organism, move through populations and

Ecology: the study of populations, how they interact with their environment, how they grow, decline, the mechanisms of expansion, etc.

Evolutionary Biology: The study of how lineages change over time and how natural selection applies to different populations, and the mechanisms behind variation

This all seems somewhat disjointed, but it is possible to draw a diagram which represents the relationship between the fields in biology. For example, studying developmental biology, one might study the genes responsible for building organisms and controlling embroynic development, and the resulting developmental plans. Hence there would be a link between genetics and developmental biology, and this would be a subdiscipline called "developmental genetics". It is possible to draw relationships between the fields in biology in a similar manner to generate all the subdisciplines. Not all subdisciplines would be meaningful, or exist. For example, there is no such thing as "microbiological anatomy" since anatomy is the study of internal organs. But in the center of all the disciplines is evolutionary biology. Evolution unifies all of the disciplines into a cohenerent picture of biological life. Via evolution, anatomical changes can be studied in terms of genetics. Via evolution, the movement of genes can be studied in terms of ecology, and zoology can be studied in terms of genetics, etc. etc. Evolution links all the disciplines in biology together. Without it, biology would be disjointed nonsense.

 

 

When I first read the thing about plasmodium falciparum I thought it was a pretty interesting one, picturing a more physical  tube/valve development but it seems to be more of a chemical setup - more of an inter-cellular drug/metabolite transporter? I know, again with time frames, it may be hard for us to observe anything more physical but are there any examples of physical development?

I see how it could be the most connected of the disciplines but for, just a random example, DNA replication science surely isn't 'based' on evolution theory as such. I understand that it could be connected to it though, but connections such as that surely wouldn't be classed as foundational.


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Hambydammit wrote:Quote:How

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
How is pharmacology based on evolution?

DG answered this.

Quote:
And how is it the foundation of all modern biological science?

Read this essay:

What's So Great About Sex?

There's a lot of information about how evolution works through sexual reproduction to "auto-correct" harmful mutations and combat microbial invaders.  This is one example of how biology is dependent on evolution.  For every topic you can think of that deals with complete organisms, you can get down to a cellular level, and you'll need evolution to explain how most things happen.

Quote:
I was using "theory" in a more conversational way than the precise scientific definition, I apologise for any confusion I caused.

It's a crucial distinction.  No apology necessary.  If you are going to talk about evolution, you're talking about science, and you need to use the scientific meaning, or we'll just talk past each other.

Quote:
Ok, its fine you saying that there "isn't any doubt in the legitimate bio.." but let's not let that take away from our own thinking...

Think all you want, but until you have a post graduate degree in a biological discipline, you're not going to have the necessary understanding to even consider questioning evolution.

 

I probably am mistaken but is that not an example of biology being dependant on sex? I'm sorry I didn't read the essay - call me whatever but I just don't have the time to spend.

Actually, you are incorrect on that one - If you are talking scientifically about evolution, you would need to be precise. If you are talking about a science (in this case evolution) there is no requirement to have that level or precision. Whether you took me as talking scientifically or not is your viewpoint but that will not mean that there is any requirement for me to have conformed to those expectations. As the conversation becomes scientific of course there is more of a requirement to be precise but the fact stands that my usage, is correct.

And my point was that its easy enough for you to dismiss anything by saying there "isn't any doubt" but what are we supposed to do then? Just not talk about it because you said that? If I wanted to just read scientific journals I could but I find it better to discuss things with people, ask my own questions and hear their own ideas and explanations.


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deludedgod wrote:My

deludedgod wrote:

My apologies. I just got somewhat irked by your misunderstanding of what the words "evolution" and "theory" mean. You can't understand how frustrating it is unless you deal on a regular basis with people who make a living confusing other people about evolution.

Thanks, and I can understand that you would get annoyed at it. I'm not going to claim that I'm in any way a biologist (I study engineering so some would even have trouble calling me a scientist) but I reckon it never hurts to ask questions.


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What engines are there for

What engines are there for evolution? 


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Quote:When I first read the

Quote:

When I first read the thing about plasmodium falciparum I thought it was a pretty interesting one, picturing a more physical  tube/valve development but it seems to be more of a chemical setup - more of an inter-cellular drug/metabolite transporter? I know, again with time frames, it may be hard for us to observe anything more physical but are there any examples of physical development?

The case I was referring to was the development of a new ABC-transporter. ABC transporters are part of a superfamily of P-type ATPase pumps. This particular pump allowed the pathogen to become resistant to chloroquine by pumping it out of the cytoplasm. This was an evolutionary change brought on by natural selection of the malarial parasite in response to the employment of chloroquine as a drug to treat malaria. It's evolution was the result of a duplication, an event where a superfluous copy of a gene is created. This allows one or the other copy to be selected for a role different to that of its sister. This is called a paralogy.

Quote:

DNA replication science surely isn't 'based' on evolution theory as such

You misunderstand what I mean. It is possible to study specific biological subjects, such as the mechanisms of a replisome, as you mentioned, outside the context of evolution. However, it is not possible to have a meaningful or coherent understanding of biology without evolution, because evolution is the unifying theory of biology. In the same way as it is possible to study both quantum mechanics and relativity in the context of the fact that no unifying principle exists between them, but this produces a disjointed understanding. WIth respect to biology, evolution is the unifying principle. As previously mentioned, it allows all disciplines to be unified and without it, no understanding of biology could be even remotely complete. It is the foundation of biology in the sense that everything in biology refers back to it. 

 

Thus we encounter books that use quantum mechanics as a justification for an array of metaphysical and spiritual beliefs written by people who would be unable to interpret a Feynman diagram or recognize, much less solve, a simple work function problem, articles smugly asserting that certain structures and organisms could not possibly have evolved, whose authors would be unable to draw a Punnett Square, brazen proclamations that evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics from people who would be unable to calculate enthalpy changes, use the combined gas law or solve a simple problem of dynamic equilibrium
-Me


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Quote:What is the engine for

Quote:

What is the engine for evolution

Engine?

Thus we encounter books that use quantum mechanics as a justification for an array of metaphysical and spiritual beliefs written by people who would be unable to interpret a Feynman diagram or recognize, much less solve, a simple work function problem, articles smugly asserting that certain structures and organisms could not possibly have evolved, whose authors would be unable to draw a Punnett Square, brazen proclamations that evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics from people who would be unable to calculate enthalpy changes, use the combined gas law or solve a simple problem of dynamic equilibrium
-Me


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deludedgod wrote:Quote:What

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

What is the engine for evolution

Engine?

I think he means things like genetic drift, gene-hopping, selection pressure, population dispersion, and so on -- the mechanisms by which genotypes change and diverge.


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deludedgod wrote:Quote:When

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

When I first read the thing about plasmodium falciparum I thought it was a pretty interesting one, picturing a more physical  tube/valve development but it seems to be more of a chemical setup - more of an inter-cellular drug/metabolite transporter? I know, again with time frames, it may be hard for us to observe anything more physical but are there any examples of physical development?

The case I was referring to was the development of a new ABC-transporter. ABC transporters are part of a superfamily of P-type ATPase pumps. This particular pump allowed the pathogen to become resistant to chloroquine by pumping it out of the cytoplasm. This was an evolutionary change brought on by natural selection of the malarial parasite in response to the employment of chloroquine as a drug to treat malaria. It's evolution was the result of a duplication, an event where a superfluous copy of a gene is created. This allows one or the other copy to be selected for a role different to that of its sister. This is called a paralogy.

Quote:

DNA replication science surely isn't 'based' on evolution theory as such

You misunderstand what I mean. It is possible to study specific biological subjects, such as the mechanisms of a replisome, as you mentioned, outside the context of evolution. However, it is not possible to have a meaningful or coherent understanding of biology without evolution, because evolution is the unifying theory of biology. In the same way as it is possible to study both quantum mechanics and relativity in the context of the fact that no unifying principle exists between them, but this produces a disjointed understanding. WIth respect to biology, evolution is the unifying principle. As previously mentioned, it allows all disciplines to be unified and without it, no understanding of biology could be even remotely complete. It is the foundation of biology in the sense that everything in biology refers back to it. 

 

 

I think I can follow that part ok - but I didn't think that was an example that, without extrapolation, could apply to something along the lines of developing a new organ system. I mean - that IS an example of, I guess you could call it "microevolution". But am I being to typical in questioning whether we can use microevolution as evidence of macro evolution?

I seem to be quite talented at misunderstanding! But sincerely thanks for your patience.

So unifying is the same as foundational? Or is that just a small part of it?

Just to me an ... hypothesis?... that unifies other theories, surely is not neccessarily made any more true through the unification itself. (I think that makes sense..). But where you refering to it as such to demonstrate a different point?


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nigelTheBold

nigelTheBold wrote:

deludedgod wrote:

Quote:

What is the engine for evolution

Engine?

I think he means things like genetic drift, gene-hopping, selection pressure, population dispersion, and so on -- the mechanisms by which genotypes change and diverge.

That sounds like what I meant, although I'm not even going to pretend to know what all of them mean/ how they worked.


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Quote:I think I can follow

Quote:

I think I can follow that part ok - but I didn't think that was an example that, without extrapolation, could apply to something along the lines of developing a new organ system. I mean - that IS an example of, I guess you could call it "microevolution". But am I being to typical in questioning whether we can use microevolution as evidence of macro evolution?

It appears that creationists are not the only ones with a talent for abuse of these terms. They were first coined by the geneticist Theodius Dobzhansky. They are used to refer to, in a very broad context, "evolution above the species level" and "within the species level". There is some confusion about this among non-scientists. These do not refer to process difference. Macroevolution can largely be regarded as a branch, or arm of evolutionary biology, one which studies general, or large-scale trends and patterns in evolutionary history that are indicated at the level of taxa. Some topics within this arm include the question "Are there any major trends in the history of life"? or "is there are characteristic rate of evolution, and does it in turn peg a limit on variational distribution?" The central component of evolutionary theory is that natural selection and changes in lineage account for both macroevolution and microevolution. This has been widely accepted since approximately 1930. There is no "chasm" that bridges the two concepts. The development of a new organ system, for example, can be explained in terms of developmental genetics, and the processes of homologous duplication and divergence and the recombination of modular developmental and genetic circuits and the selective pressuress applied to mutations of these modules. Exactly the same understanding can be applied to smaller scale phenotypic changes, those which occur in a shorter time frame within a lineage. To state that there is any process difference between the two is a continuum fallacy.

Thus we encounter books that use quantum mechanics as a justification for an array of metaphysical and spiritual beliefs written by people who would be unable to interpret a Feynman diagram or recognize, much less solve, a simple work function problem, articles smugly asserting that certain structures and organisms could not possibly have evolved, whose authors would be unable to draw a Punnett Square, brazen proclamations that evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics from people who would be unable to calculate enthalpy changes, use the combined gas law or solve a simple problem of dynamic equilibrium
-Me


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Scientist can't calculate the age of the earth

OH, for Fuck's Sake!  If you're going to spam the board with pages of HUGE FONTS and linked texts, at least have the decency to pick texts that have PARAGRAPHS instead of long run-on sentences.



Go live under the bridge, troll.



-HD


 

troll copy and paste man


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Quote:I probably am mistaken

Quote:

I probably am mistaken but is that not an example of biology being dependant on sex? I'm sorry I didn't read the essay - call me whatever but I just don't have the time to spend.

Actually, you are incorrect on that one - If you are talking scientifically about evolution, you would need to be precise. If you are talking about a science (in this case evolution) there is no requirement to have that level or precision. Whether you took me as talking scientifically or not is your viewpoint but that will not mean that there is any requirement for me to have conformed to those expectations. As the conversation becomes scientific of course there is more of a requirement to be precise but the fact stands that my usage, is correct.

And my point was that its easy enough for you to dismiss anything by saying there "isn't any doubt" but what are we supposed to do then? Just not talk about it because you said that? If I wanted to just read scientific journals I could but I find it better to discuss things with people, ask my own questions and hear their own ideas and explanations.

Well, there's no real point in me responding to any of this, is there?  You didn't read what I wrote, and so you have no idea what my last rebuttal was.  Do you think I just linked that essay for a good time?  Obviously, I wouldn't have linked it if the answer I gave you was complete without it, right?  So not only do you not know what my last answer was, but you're trying to rebut it.  Good thinking, Sherlock.

Why don't you actually read the essay, and then if you want to talk more, we can because you'll have a clue what I'm talking about.

 

If superior creatures from space ever visit earth, the first question they will ask, in order to assess the level of our civilization, is: 'Have they discovered evolution yet?' -- Richard Dawkins


Ali
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Hambydammit wrote:Quote:I

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:

I probably am mistaken but is that not an example of biology being dependant on se