Atheism, the englishman and Hollywood
Offline Hi Folks,
Hopefully it won't have escaped your attention that long gone are the days when the evil villians of Hollywood movies are Russians and Germans. They have been replaced (reinstated?) by one of the former colonial masters of the US, the English (that's me muhahaha).
In noticing this trend I have also become increasingly aware of the ever present anti-atheism in films too. This evening for instance, I was watching Steven Segal's 'Underseige'. In the penultimate moments of the film Segal utters some nonsense about "puppets" and the puppeteer, which was clearly a metaphor for 'god'. Tommy Lee Jones (the evil villain) then replies "the difference is, you have faith, I don't" and is sumarily dispatched by the hero cook (Segal).
After a few seconds it really started to bother me. This really was like a form of vitriolic racism with the specific goal of demonizing non-believers. The kind of garbage you would expect from a straw chewing Salt Lake redneck.
Does anyone have a good source of examples like this? or perhaps you would like to post your personal favourites here.
Cheers
SZIQ
Peace,
SubZeroIQ
http://religiousmadness.blogspot.com/
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Unfortunately I must fault your logic, Steven Segal films do not have penultimate moments.
Flea in the Big Lebowski gets hit with a bowling ball to the nuts when he says he believes in nuzzing. I thought it was a bit harsh!
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda
I'm sorry, but that's two hours of your life you'll never get back...
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
George Lucas had you all pegged as villians back in '77...
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
I would just like to say that Star Wars is the most cliche ridden, stereotyped nonsense ever to come out of hollywood. It's going to sound like I'm joking, but think about this seriously for as long as you can before it becomes impossible...
1) The villians are English
2) The main villain is the black guy.
3) All the soldiers on both sides are shaped like penises. (Men are scum, after all...)
4) The black one is the biggest.
5) Everyone ends up believing in "The Force" -- especially the one atheist in the crowd (Solo).
6) Family is more important than anything else in the end.
7) Simply regretting your sins before you die is enough to get you to heaven
Now, just for shits and giggles, notice the sexual themes all the way through, and see if you get any ideas about George Lucas:
1) Penises running around all over the place. (See above)
2) Fighting with their dicks (light sabers)
3) Only one female in the whole cast, and she's off limits because she's family. She's also a tomboy.
4) Think about the last scene for just a second. Lots of little ships flying (swimming) around trying to get their package into the big round death star? Sperm and egg anyone?
Now, remember that this is a kids' movie, and see what you think of GL now.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
YOU BASTARD!
Star Wars (...the original Trilogy. The prequels don't actually exist.
) was awesome. It was an amazing technical achievement, the characters were likeable and well-cast, the universe was interesting, the puppeteering was magnificent, the plot hook at the end of TESB was a mind-blower at the time, the ship designs were spectacular, the walking imperial vehicles looked breath-taking at the time, lightsabre duels are badass, the dialogue was extremely well written and equally well-delivered, the motifs were strong, Han Solo's 'YEE-HAW!' at the end of ANH is a sci-fi landmark... *gasp*... the underdogs / good guys won, the cowboy (Solo) got the girl, Palpatine resembles Pope benedict so much it's provided material for thousands of internet jokes, Yoda reps the little guys, Stormtroopers became the new redshirts, those aren't the droids you're looking for, you'll take me to see Jabba now, your overconfidence is your weakness, I don't trust Lando, now you will witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational battle station, stay on target, IT'S A TRAP...
...Oh, sorry. The awesomeness of Star Wars tends to manifest itself through my keystrokes when I think about it too hard.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Yeah, I was a big Star Wars fan when I was a kid, but good grief, to say that people have gone overboard with it over the past few decades would be a gross understatement.
I also don't think that 'The Force', as presented in the fictional context, is comparable to religion. The Force had very clear, empircal, measurable and commandable effects. Solo not 'believing' in the force was a demonstration of his own stubborness; he did not want to believe there was any great equalizer in the galaxy he couldn't carry in a hip holster (a stubborness that cost him dearly in Cloud City, when his blaster proved ineffective against an unarmed Darth Vader).
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
The concept of the "Force" I could put up with, but the twist in Episode I was silly, that is, that the effects are caused by microscopic symbiotic life forms inhabiting our cells, called "midichlorians", an obvious rip-off of "mitochondria", which really are symbiotic entities that live in our cells, although their job is rather more important (aerobic respiration and ATP production).
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
I was with you until this point. The dialog is shit, but it was well delivered because Lucas wasn't directing.
You mean the only other black guy?
Don't get me wrong. Other than the two things I have been forced to correct you on, I agree with you. It's a great trilogy. To be honest, I have four movies permanently saved on my TiVo: The original SW Trilogy and The Princess Bride. However, I can't give SW credit for being anything other than cliche. It just happened to be a cliche with actors and special effects that could override Lucas' complete incompetence as a director.
The dialog is a particular mystery to me. Granted, there are some really awesome quotable lines in it, but in between the quotes, there are some real stinkers. Can you really listen to Luke saying, "But I was going to go into Toshi Station to pick up some power converters" without flinching? I mean, let's be honest. The dialog wasn't great. Harrison Ford was great.
Also, notably bad: "Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerous ways, Lord Vader."
Ok... so while we're talking about the plot, maybe you can help me get over some cognitive dissonance that makes it really hard for me to stomach. If Luke can go to Degobah and learn to be a Jedi by the time Han and Leia can fly to the cloud city without hyperdrive, why is Leia all broken up that Han has to fly to Tatooine to give Jaba some money? He could fly right over there (with hyperdrive) drop off the money, and come back in time to give Leia a quickie before dinner.
How did Luke know that R2-D2 would get assigned to serve drinks on the sail barge?
If Luke is too old to learn the force, how does he manage to use it so effectively after a few hours practice in the rec room of the Falcon?
Speaking of which, they left for Luke's home immediately after discussing the force. They find Luke's family dead, and then hitch a ride to go save the universe. So that's all the training he got. A few hours... maybe a day or two. Yet, when Luke is in the ship and Vader's chasing him, Vader senses the force in him. Luke and Leia are twins. Why didn't Vader sense the force in her when they're standing together in the same room?
Speaking of which, why isn't he sharp enough to sense the force when she proves remarkably resistant to torture? I don't have the Force, and that seems like a no brainer, even just thinking it out.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I almost walked out of the theater at this point. It offended me very deeply, and not even for any scientific reason. It's just dumb. He had a perfectly good thing going with the force as energy that binds the universe together. Lucas just fell victim to the fallacy that more modern is necessarily better.
To Kevin, I grant your point about the Force being empirical, but let's be honest. Lucas has never been subtle about drawing parallels between his movies and real life. It seems obvious. I mean, the whole kicker to the Force is you have to believe in it before it will work! That's just what Christians say about Jesus.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Don't be a dick Hamby! Lucas said it, I believe it, that settles it!
The force is like herpes, it can lie dormant. Besides, the midichlorians weren't created til decades later, stop trying to apply your sorcerous logic to everything!
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda
Yearh, I have to go with Kevin on this one. It's just a movie, a farie tale, a fantasy. Many of the themes can serve both sides of an argument. Sure your observations are both spot on and very funny, but i don't think them very thoughtprovoking. So what if they are all dicks and sperm running around? Don't you like dicks? Cause I sure do. Dicks rock man! (especially mine
)
And Han Solo isn't convinced of the power of the Force by Luke saying "I can feel the force in my heart man". He is convinced by seeing TK and mind control and all sorts of weird shit like that. He is convinced by empirical evidence.
The only thing I will object to is the "good casting" thing. I go with Oliver Stone in that Mark Hamill is the worst actor ever.
But even so, he still does a reasonable job in Star Wars, since he does play the most one-dimensional character of them all. If ever I was forced to cast Mark Hamill in a leading role I would have gone for Innocent farmboy-turned-hero too.
Oh, and my favorite Star Wars quote ever:
Leia: "I love you!"
Solo (stonefaced): "I know"
I've made a point of responding just like Han at least once, to every girl that's ever said those words to me. And trust me, it works wonders
And though I will commend the new movies for some of the set and prop design, and certainly for the lightsaber choreography, I will also agree with Kevin that it is best to just ignore them. Not only did GL write the dialogue and directed it himself (BIG HUGE MINDNUMBLINGLY STUPID mistake), but he also tries to inject more murky moral dynamics into them, and he fails... The best stories in the world are certainly not about good vs. bad, but rather much more gray-area, but you need a different talent to tell such a story, and GW should have stayed with good guys are good, bad guys are bad.
Edit: by the time it took me to write this entry, Hamby has qualified his previous posts with the follow-up. So now I pretty much agree with Hamby too...
Oh, and to the thing that started this whole SW thing: you gotta love Eddie Izzard. He's just too funny (and an out atheist, by the way)
Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin
WHAT!?
I thought those lines were great!
(...Well, then again, I'm within a demograph of people who's exposure to TV/Film dialogue started with The Transformers and GI Joe.
)
Well, there are a couple of fan-based theories for this:
- The Rebels didn't know when the Imperial Fleet would be arriving at Hoth. If Han jumped-out, and the Imps jumped-in, Han would be cut-off.
- Leia might've been concerned that Han would be held-up at Tatooine, or possibly killed or held for ransom if Jabba found-out where Han got the money from. Jabba was a notorious mobster, afterall.
- Leia gave Han some kind of fake/counterfeit credits. The Alliance was not wealthy, and there's little reason to believe Leia had many assets left to her name after the destruction of Alderaan, so whatever reward Han was given might well have been just to dupe him. She didn't want him to find out (this works in corroboration with the above point).
According to the EU, Luke didn't know, until he was captured on the barge. He simply gave R2 his lightsabre, and instructions to make sure he could get it on command.
Luke had to go to Degobah before he could use it really effectively. What he did before that amounted to rather simple tricks. Luke had an allegedly strong 'affinity' for the force passed down through his heredity (this idea is disputed among rabid warsies).
Again, this is a point of some dispute. According to post-new-trilogy errata, Leia's affinity isn't as naturall strong or evident as Luke's because she's on the opposite gender chromozone. I don't even know what that means, but it's apparently the official answer. Among fans, the most popular notion is that Vader did know all along (it's hinted at throughout ANH), but pretended to have pulled it from Luke's emotions in the final Death Star duel as a psychological 'check' maneuver.
Vader constantly hints to Tarkin that he knows the mind probe won't work:
'...I told you that she would never consciously betray the Rebellion,'
Sort-of implying that he did know all along she was Luke's next-of-kin and potentially quite strong with the force.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Most fans reject the idea that the microbes in question actually cause the Force. The argument is that they are simply indicators ; if I'm strong with the force, I have more of these things in my blood than normal.
EDIT: The new films are so shitty anyway, I don't realy care what they bring to the table. I'm astounded you made it all the way through - I couldn't do it. I left TPM after the first half and hour; I left AOTC after the retarded chase scene started. Neither film 'felt' like Star Wars to me.
ROTS was a little better, but I only sat through it begrudgingly. The ending was so terribly, abysmally horrible that I wished I hadn't stuck it out all the way.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
All I'm saying is if we get onto Michael Jackson for building a theme park and having cake and ice cream on the floor of his bedroom, why aren't we raising eyebrows when Lucas gives every indication of being an adolescent boy with sexual identity issues trapped in a bad director's body? I mean, come on! There's one girl in the whole movie, and in ANH, the only action she gets is from her brother! And all that sexual imagery floating around? Clearly a disturbed man.
(Am I doing a good job of going off the deep end? I tried to keep a straight face as long as possible, but I'm afraid someone might send one of those big centipedes through my window, and R2D2 isn't here to protect me.)
I agree with you and Oliver. He's truly horrible. I mean, just look at the work he's gotten since SW:
Codename: Kids Next Door
Avatar: The Last Airbender
My Friends Tigger & Pooh
Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles. (Isn't that William Shatner's thing? There's your proof.)
And then, there's my all time favorite, "Choose Your Own Adventure: The Abominable Snowman."
Oh... hell... one more, just to add insult to injury:
Wing Commander. Yeah, I know, that was actually a big movie. The insult? He wasn't credited.
While I'm ranting, Andie MacDowell is the worst female actor of all time. That is all.
If Lucas was a real man, he'd have done all three of the prequels with the technology of the first three to give them a sense of continuity.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Most fans aren't brave enough to go up to George Lucas and hit him in the face. That's what he deserves. I'm serious. The prequels were horrible. I used to think Armageddon, with Ben Affleck, Liv Tyler, and Bruce Willis, was the worst movie ever made. Now, I believe that Attack of the Clones is the worst movie ever made in the history of movies.
I thought that Phantom Menace was the worst, but before I could even form a solid opinion, AOTC came out, and I saw the absolute worst love scene in the history of movies. That stupid Sound of Music scene goes beyond nauseating. I had to hide my face. I couldn't make myself watch it. And then, to top it off, Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman have the worst chemistry of any screen couple ever. I blame it all on George Lucas, because Portman is a good actress, and Hayden is dumb enough to do what you tell him. That about sand being rough and her being smooth.... GAAAAAAGGGGG!!!!!
Seriously, I feel like I want to vomit just thinking about it.
ROTS proves how bad the first two prequels were. By itself, out of context, ROTS is a terrible.... abysmal movie. When people came out of the theaters, they didn't say it was abysmal, though. They said, "Well, at least it was better than the last movie." It just proves that if you feed someone a plate of shit every day for a month, they'll thank you for shit with a little tempura batter and some soy sauce.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Behold, and tremble:
Stardestroyer.net
Read through this site, if you can stand it. Then skim through the forums. Then skim their wiki, and the edit history on it. Then read-up on Mike Wong's personal blog, his confrontations with Star Trek fans, and the general culture he's surrounded himself with.
It'll probably take a day or so. When your done, siit back and marvel at how easily simple fanhood can really manifest itself into a violent and disgusting cult.
I think this is one of the finest, most well-documented cases of how devotion of something that appears to be perfectly benign and harmless can easily spiral into something so much more sinister when put into an adversarial position.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
I'm really, really scared. I'm not sure if I can do what you want, but I'll try. It may take me longer than a day or so. My stomach turns easily.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I came upon your site by accident and although i do not agree with your views this is not the reason i am writing. I also do not agree with christianity or any other organized religion. (i am 24 party girl, i hate to be told what to do.) but after reading some of the posts on your site i noticed that everyone is like down with religion however if you look at the meaning of religion in the dictionary mine states quote RELIGION any practice,matter etc treated with devotion or keen conscientiousness. therfore isnt this in a sense what you have all tried to avoid yet have some how actually created? your own religion. This is just a matter of observation.I also find it rather irratating the way people that do not have your views visit this site with sayings like well prove that God isnt real. What the hell???? you visited this site. (no punn intended) World peace would be so much more obtainable if we could see how damaging it is to impose our thoughts and beliefs onto some one else. What you have here is obviously a place where a group of like minded individuals can come together to express themselves freely. More freely than those who attend church to to do the same thing. So if this site is not to your beleif stay away all your doing by adding your opinion to people who do not think like you is throwing fuel on the fire.You are wasting your time AND everyone elses. stick to the sites that offer you your comfort. As for me i know i dont belong at this site. I have not wished to offend!!! P.S one final thought To those who believe no proof is necessary To those who dont, no proof is sufficient.
4 those who believ no proof is necessary
4 those who dont no proof is sufficient
How... random?
I suspect inebriation. I wonder why that would be?
EDIT: ...That wasn't very polite or welcoming of me, though.
Welcome to the RRS! Feel free to make your own introductory post here in the General Convo forums.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Ahem...
So, um... how do you feel about Star Wars, 2Each?
We weren't really talking about what you were talking about just now.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
[q]I think this is one of the finest, most well-documented cases of how devotion of something that appears to be perfectly benign and harmless can easily spiral into something so much more sinister when put into an adversarial position. [/q]
Didn't Sam Harris mention Star Wars when talking about the aburdity of religions arguing over who's literary work to believe?
I can just see, 100 years from now, the cult of Jediism has its first major schism and our cerebral implants start picking up the news of hundreds being beaten to death with illuminous plastic swords
Peace,
SubZeroIQ
http://religiousmadness.blogspot.com/
I don't want to live forever, but if I could live long enough to see someone discover an ancient book about Jedis and Empires and Rebellions, and start the Jedi order as a real religion, I would laugh and laugh and laugh...
It would be almost like that time when someone found some stories about this dude named Jesus...
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Some days, I wonder f I should even joke about things like that.
It just seems frighteningly too plausible.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Yeah I know. Sometimes I like to put my brain on autopilot for a few hours.
Peace,
SubZeroIQ
http://religiousmadness.blogspot.com/
Sorry guys was not ment to actually post that blog here. I came upon this site researching human ethics and found a forum on here where there was some christian dude full bagging atheists and thought id add my bit but when i wrote it i lost the blog thought i found it but obviously was wrong one.SORRY
Oh y the way i loved star wars when i was younger. havent seen it in ages. or any of the new ones.
4 those who believ no proof is necessary
4 those who dont no proof is sufficient
It's cool... just don't break the rules by spamming one post over and over again. Why don't you make a new post here introducing yourself?
EDIT: ...Oh, and watch out for IAGAY. Once he sees your avatar, he's going to flip-out...
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Star Wars is not sci-fi. If Star Wars is Sci-Fi and not a very bad Space Cowboy adventure then I am a theist. I am not a theist...
Yes, it was an amazing techincal acheivment in film. That's all.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Five words: Manos: the Hands of Fate. Watch it and report back. Back on topic...
It's sad that I spent my time during Ep1-3 noting which scenes would show up in the video games, and also sad that I was right. I think that's my biggest feeling about Ep1-3: they weren't movies; they were non-interactive computer games.
After watching Ep2 the first time, I wanted to find Lucas to shake him by the shoulders and yell, "STOP FUCKING WITH MY CHILDHOOD!"
Carrie Fisher has said that she, Harrison Ford and Mark Hammill would sit around between takes on the set of Ep4 making fun of the script. They summed up their criticisms into "you can write this stuff, but you can't say it."
--
maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.
I agree Manos the Hands of Fate is the worst movie ever made (with the possible exception of Expelled.) I remember when it was on MST3K - it was so bad even they couldn't help it. There were a couple others they played on that show that were so bad even the cast making fun didn't help - it was still painful to watch - one I remember was called "Side Hackers." Actually once in a great while the played a movie that was pretty good.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Holy shit. That's really bizarre. Seriously. Bizarre. Tonight at my weekly trivia match someone mentioned Manos: The Hands of Fate, and it was the first time in my life I've ever heard of it. Then, I come back, and it's on the board....
Someone must be trying to tell me something
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
...Jesus wants you to know it was really that bad?
I've always found it odd when that happens. I'll hear about some book, or concept, or thought for the first time and then I see it fuckin' everywhere.
--
maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.
The normal skeptical reply to this observation is that you don't notice something until it has been brought to your attention, and then it becomes part of what your brain allows through the filter.
In the case of this movie, I find that explanation unsatisfying. I have a long history of talking about really shitty movies, and I don't recall ever hearing about this one.
My best explanation is that it is either random chance, which is certainly possible, or that DamnDirtyApe and Mattshizzle have similar tastes in bad movies, and among people with that kind of taste, Manos is a commonly known movie.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Now that was funny!
Lando was the main villain? Shit. It all comes together for me now.
"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men."
--Bertrand Russell