'Zetigeist' the movie
Posted on: June 22, 2008 - 2:43pm
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'Zetigeist' the movie
Hi Folks,
I recently watched 'Zeitgeist' the movie and am looking for comment specifically with respect to Part I (all about the origins of the Jesus mythology). I'm not a historian, but I am interested in finding out more.
I personally felt that the film reached some very paranoid conclusions, though I assumed that that many of the 'facts' presented are genuine, since the associated website has many citations.
I am aware that there is a response to Zeitgeist called 'Zeitgeist Exposed'.
Does anyone have any useful information or views on the validity of facts and claims of either film?
Peace,
SubZeroIQ
http://religiousmadness.blogspot.com/
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There have been a couple posts regarding this movie. The first part of the movie is done by a psuedoscholar named Acharya S(worth google searching the site too). Rook has debunked most of her claims, and the references to the things Horus is supposed to have said and done are not that reliable. I thoroughly enjoyed the movie, eventhough, it seems to be three conspiracy theories that make pretty giant leaps from actual evidence to conclusions.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda
I would suggest using the "Google" feature on the left hand side of the website to find the threads.
You can also find a discussion on my blog here.
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Please help me get my resources so I can finish my book more quickly.
My wish list.
Et suppositio nil ponit in esse.
"You act ridiculously," said Ion, "to doubt everything. For my part, I should like to ask you what you say to those who free possessed men from their terrors by exorcising the spirits so manifestly. I need not discuss this: everyone knows about the Syrian from Palestine, the adept in it, how many he takes in hand who fall down in the light of the moon and roll their eyes and fill their mouths with foam; nevertheless, he restores them to health and sends them away normal in mind, delivering them from their straits for a large fee. When he stands beside them as they lie there and asks : 'Whence came you into his body?' the patient himself is silent, but the spirit answers in Greek or in the language of whatever foreign country he comes from, telling how and whence he entered into the man; whereupon, by adjuring the spirit and if he does not obey, threatening him, he drives him out. Indeed, I actually saw one coming out, black and smoky in color." "It is nothing much," I remarked," for you, Ion, to see that kind of sight, when even the 'forms' that the father of your school, Plato, points out are plain to you, a hazy object of vision to the rest of us, whose eyes are weak." - Lucian, Lover of Lies
Zeitgeist: the Movie, while entertaining, is nothing but speculative hand-waving. Part I is not good scholarship - it's drawing very loose connections without the film's authors doing proper research. Little tid-bits are correct; the Epic of Gilgamesh, for example, is a good example of pre-Christian mythology that the Bible's authors likely borrwed from.
However, the assertions that Jesus was a figure of pagan myth is absurd. Read Rooks articles, and do some looking into the field yourself. The vast majority of scholars agree that the Bible was mostly based on Greek mythology with a lot of Homeric influence. (EDIT: <---I've just been informed that the highlighted text is not accurate. See? It's just that easy to be mistaken about ancient history texts / scholarship when you're a layman.
)
The latter parts of Zeitgeist infuriate me. Carl would be disgusted that words from his speech about the dangers of nuclear tensions were taken out of contect like that in order to lend false credibility to a paranoid delusion.
'We accepted the products of science. We rejected it's methods.'
- Carl Sagan, Cosmos
In light of the highlighted text from Kevin, scholars now accept the conclusion that the books of the Bible are largely eponymous, edifying fiction written by scribes who used literary models from all over the ancient Near Eastern and Hellenistic world. This included Homeric models, however you do not see prevalent use of Homeric models until after Alexander the Great conquered the region in the fourth century BCE. Even if much of the Hebrew Bible was composed during the Hellenistic period, there is more evidence of ancient Near Eastern influence on those texts than from Hellenistic influence. You do not start seeing Homeric models being used by Jewish scribes in great extent until the last few centuries in the so-called apocryphal books, and early Christians when composing the Gospel narratives and deuterocanonical works, many which were composed in Greek. In the books which were originally composed in Hebrew is it doubtful that such models would have been helpful because models appear to be chosen based on compatibility with composition and emulation. This is why you see much greater use of Greek models in works written in Greek rather than in Hebrew or Aramaic, which would have more utilized semitic literature.
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Please help me get my resources so I can finish my book more quickly.
My wish list.
Et suppositio nil ponit in esse.
"You act ridiculously," said Ion, "to doubt everything. For my part, I should like to ask you what you say to those who free possessed men from their terrors by exorcising the spirits so manifestly. I need not discuss this: everyone knows about the Syrian from Palestine, the adept in it, how many he takes in hand who fall down in the light of the moon and roll their eyes and fill their mouths with foam; nevertheless, he restores them to health and sends them away normal in mind, delivering them from their straits for a large fee. When he stands beside them as they lie there and asks : 'Whence came you into his body?' the patient himself is silent, but the spirit answers in Greek or in the language of whatever foreign country he comes from, telling how and whence he entered into the man; whereupon, by adjuring the spirit and if he does not obey, threatening him, he drives him out. Indeed, I actually saw one coming out, black and smoky in color." "It is nothing much," I remarked," for you, Ion, to see that kind of sight, when even the 'forms' that the father of your school, Plato, points out are plain to you, a hazy object of vision to the rest of us, whose eyes are weak." - Lucian, Lover of Lies
Hi Rook,
Thanks for that. I'm only sorry that I didn't really understand a word of it. I do have a book on Roman and Greek mythological history, but found it to be of medicinal value only; a great cure for insomnia! I need entertaining writers to keep my goldfish like attention. Any recommendations?
Many thanks
SZIQ
Peace,
SubZeroIQ
http://religiousmadness.blogspot.com/
You mean aside from me?
I would start with my blog, because I generally cite my sources. This means that if you find a particular historical/biblical subject entertaining or compelling, the outside reading material is easy to be found (just look towards the bottom of the articles). To give you some idea...my most recent article on ancient Israel has some 44-45 endnotes. You can find my blog here. Don't be afraid to read older articles.
By the by...what parts didn't you understand? I would be more than happy to explain things more clearly.
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Please help me get my resources so I can finish my book more quickly.
My wish list.
Et suppositio nil ponit in esse.
"You act ridiculously," said Ion, "to doubt everything. For my part, I should like to ask you what you say to those who free possessed men from their terrors by exorcising the spirits so manifestly. I need not discuss this: everyone knows about the Syrian from Palestine, the adept in it, how many he takes in hand who fall down in the light of the moon and roll their eyes and fill their mouths with foam; nevertheless, he restores them to health and sends them away normal in mind, delivering them from their straits for a large fee. When he stands beside them as they lie there and asks : 'Whence came you into his body?' the patient himself is silent, but the spirit answers in Greek or in the language of whatever foreign country he comes from, telling how and whence he entered into the man; whereupon, by adjuring the spirit and if he does not obey, threatening him, he drives him out. Indeed, I actually saw one coming out, black and smoky in color." "It is nothing much," I remarked," for you, Ion, to see that kind of sight, when even the 'forms' that the father of your school, Plato, points out are plain to you, a hazy object of vision to the rest of us, whose eyes are weak." - Lucian, Lover of Lies
[q]what parts didn't you understand?[/q]
Just think of me as having only seen Christian epics on TV. I have not really been interested in history until now so I don't know too much about it. I'm hoping to be a late bloomer on history
.
Thanks for the link to your blog.
Have you ever heard of Ken Humphries?
Cheers
Peace,
SubZeroIQ
http://religiousmadness.blogspot.com/
[q]what parts didn't you understand?[/q]
Just think of me as having only seen Christian epics on TV. I have not really been interested in history until now so I don't know too much about it. I'm hoping to be a late bloomer on history
.
Thanks for the link to your blog.
Have you ever heard of Ken Humphries?
Cheers
Peace,
SubZeroIQ
http://religiousmadness.blogspot.com/
What about 'The God who wasn't there'?
I haven't seen it, but it is advertised on the right side of this page (in my browser anyway). Has anyone with scholarly skills checked this out?
Peace,
SubZeroIQ
http://religiousmadness.blogspot.com/
Not a scholar, but a much better history presentation. Not nearly as sensationalized, for sure .....
There is a 14 min clip in Google Videos
The more the merrier.
I have not.
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Please help me get my resources so I can finish my book more quickly.
My wish list.
Et suppositio nil ponit in esse.
"You act ridiculously," said Ion, "to doubt everything. For my part, I should like to ask you what you say to those who free possessed men from their terrors by exorcising the spirits so manifestly. I need not discuss this: everyone knows about the Syrian from Palestine, the adept in it, how many he takes in hand who fall down in the light of the moon and roll their eyes and fill their mouths with foam; nevertheless, he restores them to health and sends them away normal in mind, delivering them from their straits for a large fee. When he stands beside them as they lie there and asks : 'Whence came you into his body?' the patient himself is silent, but the spirit answers in Greek or in the language of whatever foreign country he comes from, telling how and whence he entered into the man; whereupon, by adjuring the spirit and if he does not obey, threatening him, he drives him out. Indeed, I actually saw one coming out, black and smoky in color." "It is nothing much," I remarked," for you, Ion, to see that kind of sight, when even the 'forms' that the father of your school, Plato, points out are plain to you, a hazy object of vision to the rest of us, whose eyes are weak." - Lucian, Lover of Lies
Well two scholars took part in its creation, including Richard Carrier and Robert Price, both of whom are well worth their weight in history and biblical studies. Richard Carrier is a classical historian, while Robert Price was a fellow of the Jesus Seminar. This movie is much better with its presentation of facts, however it has its flaws as well. It is still a heck of a lot better than Zeitgeist. I would still recommend the library to movies though.
----------------------------------------
Please help me get my resources so I can finish my book more quickly.
My wish list.
Et suppositio nil ponit in esse.
"You act ridiculously," said Ion, "to doubt everything. For my part, I should like to ask you what you say to those who free possessed men from their terrors by exorcising the spirits so manifestly. I need not discuss this: everyone knows about the Syrian from Palestine, the adept in it, how many he takes in hand who fall down in the light of the moon and roll their eyes and fill their mouths with foam; nevertheless, he restores them to health and sends them away normal in mind, delivering them from their straits for a large fee. When he stands beside them as they lie there and asks : 'Whence came you into his body?' the patient himself is silent, but the spirit answers in Greek or in the language of whatever foreign country he comes from, telling how and whence he entered into the man; whereupon, by adjuring the spirit and if he does not obey, threatening him, he drives him out. Indeed, I actually saw one coming out, black and smoky in color." "It is nothing much," I remarked," for you, Ion, to see that kind of sight, when even the 'forms' that the father of your school, Plato, points out are plain to you, a hazy object of vision to the rest of us, whose eyes are weak." - Lucian, Lover of Lies
Thanks for your help. I'm sure you are right about the library vs movies. You certainly get more info per minute and more chance of investigating the sources and motivations.
Peace,
SubZeroIQ
http://religiousmadness.blogspot.com/
Try "101 Myths of the Bible" by Gary Greenburg. He is, or was president of the Biblical Archaeioligy Society of New York. I can't swear to the accuracy of his research, perhaps Rook can provide some insight there. Another good read would be "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart D. Erhman, a former fundy who still believes in god but not the bible.
"Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." Thomas Jefferson
www.myspace.com/kenhill5150
Thanks BD,
I'll order a book or two this week.
Cheers
SZIQ
Google offers alot .... summaries, comments, reviews , etc
Don't rush ..... relax
In regards to Bart, he has come out as an atheist when it comes to the Biblical god. I would consider Bart to be an agnostic-atheist based on our conversations, but will not speak for him on that.
I have not read 101 Myths of the Bible, only because I don't think that pointing out the myths is as fun as explaining why they exist.
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Please help me get my resources so I can finish my book more quickly.
My wish list.
Et suppositio nil ponit in esse.
"You act ridiculously," said Ion, "to doubt everything. For my part, I should like to ask you what you say to those who free possessed men from their terrors by exorcising the spirits so manifestly. I need not discuss this: everyone knows about the Syrian from Palestine, the adept in it, how many he takes in hand who fall down in the light of the moon and roll their eyes and fill their mouths with foam; nevertheless, he restores them to health and sends them away normal in mind, delivering them from their straits for a large fee. When he stands beside them as they lie there and asks : 'Whence came you into his body?' the patient himself is silent, but the spirit answers in Greek or in the language of whatever foreign country he comes from, telling how and whence he entered into the man; whereupon, by adjuring the spirit and if he does not obey, threatening him, he drives him out. Indeed, I actually saw one coming out, black and smoky in color." "It is nothing much," I remarked," for you, Ion, to see that kind of sight, when even the 'forms' that the father of your school, Plato, points out are plain to you, a hazy object of vision to the rest of us, whose eyes are weak." - Lucian, Lover of Lies