This is what cops ACTUALLY believe
Offline How Cops Really Want to Police
By Sudhir Venkatesh
copsPhoto: Rhett Redelings
After writing my last Freakonomics post, I received a phone call from a police officer who began his career in Chicago.
Carl, the 54-year-old cop, started working in Chicago’s inner cities at the height of the crack epidemic. He transferred to the suburbs of Seattle for a lifestyle change — “I was tired of getting shot at,” he said matter-of-factly.
I had promised readers of this blog that I would ask about the creative, informal ways police respond to crime — sometimes even tolerating certain anti-social or criminal behavior for (presumed) larger gains. Carl was eager to respond.
I will post Carl’s comment below, as well as the responses of two other law enforcement officials.
1. “Judge on-site.”
Carl wanted to make a single point: he felt cops should have the freedom to act as “judge on-site.” (See Chance’s comment, #6.) Carl preferred working in poor communities because, in his opinion, they had a healthy distrust of the court system.
“You want to really lower crime?” Carl began. “Let cops enforce the rules. The whole way. You ask any cop on the street and he’ll tell you that he would love to dish out the punishment, on the spot.”
“You want to be the cop and the jury?” I asked, incredulously.
You laugh, but the good cops never let problems get to judges. They are judge on-site, I like to say. And, I don’t mean just for stupid things like kids shoplifting — you might get the kid by the neck, make him to apologize and work for the store owner for free. I mean for serious things.
In Chicago, back in the 1980’s, we had all these problems with drug dealers selling their dope on the street. We used to catch them and bring them in front of the older folks. We used to take their drug money and give it to all the neighbors on the block! They loved it, and the f–ing gangbangers hated it, of course. But, the people on the block always said to us, “We know you can’t get these guys off the streets, so keep doing what you are doing.”
“Isn’t that just a convenient excuse?” I pressed on. “Would you tolerate that kind of behavior in the suburbs where you work now? I can’t imagine any God-fearing middle class person would allow drug dealers to stand on their corner. I certainly wouldn’t.”
He continued:
No, but around here [in Seattle’s suburbs] it’s all inside. But we actually still try to do the same thing. If we catch teenagers selling drugs, we take their money and give it to the school principal or to a block association — sometimes they take it, most of the time they shy away. The problem here is that people trust the prosecutor, the judges. Inner-city people know that these people are really useless. Around here, where you’ve got a lot of domestic violence, a lot of drunk driving, I would love to do other things to stop crime, but …
“Like what? What would you do for a drunk driver?” I asked.
Well, I hate taking that son-of-a-bitch to the station because those tests always fail and they get off (with little penalty). But these guys are a terror around here.
Everyone drinks and drives — especially those guys who drive home after work. I’d love to give them a tattoo, right on their forehead — like one of those scarlet letters. I’d like to get them all out on a Saturday and have them stand on a corner with a sign: “I’m a drunk driver and I’d like to wash your car for free.” I wouldn’t mind taking them around to do errands for others on their block for free on weekends. Or maybe they have to wear a bright orange suit for a month everywhere they go! You know what I mean? The courts don’t do sh-t.
2. “I hate wife beaters.”
Jordan is a 51-year-old police officer who works in New York. I met Jordan when I was studying prostitution. He was based in Manhattan, in Hell’s Kitchen, around the time when the police sought to rid the area of the sex economy — e.g., strip clubs, street-based prostitution, and video parlors. He also felt that the courts are largely impotent, but his pet-peeve was domestic violence. He says that he developed a set of skills that he now uses in “DV” incidents in the middle-class communities outside of Manhattan:
The one thing I hate is a wife beater. Or, anyone who beats women. I never arrest those idiots because they always get out of jail and go back and beat up their wives. It’s really frustrating. I have a daughter, and it just makes me sick … When I was in Hell’s Kitchen, I used to make those guys pay their women [prostitutes] extra, for maybe two months at a time, if they bruised them. You know, to make up for what they did. I’d just get their number at work and I’d call them and say, “Hey, you need to bring Shirley $500 because her kid needs school clothes. If they didn’t do it, I’d call their boss or show up at their job.
And, you know what? I do this now where I work [in wealthier areas of New York City]. These guys get arrested way fewer times [than the poor]. They think they are totally invincible because they make so much money. So, I do the same thing. Traders on Wall Street, lawyers — I don’t care. I tell them they have to pay up. I usually make them donate to a battered women’s shelter … See the one thing to know about these guys with money is that they HATE to give even a penny away! So it hurts. And, I take their money for months. A bunch of cops do this with me.
3. Bill’s Top Five List
Bill is a retired police officer who worked in many Chicago neighborhoods. He made a list of, in his words, “the things that cops do to keep the peace that no one wants to know about.”
1. If a drug addict robbed somebody, we used to take his drugs away and give them to someone else. Then we used to make him watch his buddy smoke all his stuff. THAT was real pain!
2. Let people decide what to do with the gangbangers. The funny thing is that the gangbangers don’t mind going to jail, but they can’t stand it when people in their community get back at them. And, let me tell you something, parents who have children can get really pissed. They make gangbangers clean their streets, pick up trash, and stand outside and look stupid. The key is letting folks decide what’s best [in terms of] dealing with criminals.
3. Always deal with domestic violence on the spot. Make sure that when you catch a perp, all the folks on the block see you drag his sorry a– to court. Shaming somebody can sometimes be your greatest weapon. Hell, sometimes we will cuff the perp to the car, turn on the lights, and just keep him there until all the people get a chance to see him.
4. We like to play gladiator. You know what I mean? Let two gangs beat each other up without weapons, and the winner gets to deal on the corner. Or, we grab a bunch of muggers, or maybe two crews who steal cars, and tell them, “Okay, you all fight each other — the one still standing gets to avoid jail.” I know: it sounds awful, but believe me, this really works.
5. You have to let people get revenge. One time, I caught a guy who was running around stealing jewelry. So I asked the women — the ones who got their rings stolen — if they’d like to come over to his place and take something. Two of them said, “Hell yeah!”
I brought them to this guy’s house, and they took a bunch of his things — a TV, a painting! It was hilarious. This doesn’t happen often, but I think it would be a great way to stop people from doing the little things — you know, robbing, shoplifting, beating up people.
I was struck at the extent to which the drive for autonomy — the ability to act outside the formal system — was invoked by the police. The running theme in my conversations was their lack of trust in the courts. This is not entirely surprising since most cops believe there is a never-ending cycle of criminality in place whereby the punishment doesn’t deter the crime.
To some degree, the wave of urban “community policing” initiatives — whereby residents and police communicate more effectively with each other around — was supposed to rectify the situation. Community policing was developed by public officials in order to incorporate the informal social control mechanisms that exist in any community.
Here, one thinks of the “eyes on the street” approach of social critic Jane Jacobs, in which people police one another’s behavior, with law enforcement playing a mostly supportive role. But, it sounds to me like some police would like greater discretion to enforce the law.
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All seems quite plausible to me, we need police to be able to use more discretion
I've dealt with such cops before.
One time my friend called me and told me he was leaving to a different state for about two weeks. He learned that the night before they were to leave. Well, I decided to walk to his place to smoke some pot with him and hang out before he left for the airport.
Before leaving my house at about 3 AM, I remembered that he left his house key at my place, so I stuck it my pocket to return to him. I then walked for about two and a half hours to get to the street he lived on. Right when I stepped onto the street, I seen him and his family pull out from the drive way and leave for the airport. I was late by just a few minutes, which ticked me off. So, I was faced with two choices: to turn around and walk for another two and a half hours at roughly 5:30 AM when I'm so tired I could faint on the street, or I could use the key in my pocket to enter and rest and then return home.
I figured that my friend would've care if I rested there, so I approached the door and began inserting the key. Right then I heard a loud screech and turned to see the family van whipping around the corner at an amazing speed. The thought immediately came to me that my friend's stepfather had seen me and intended to kick my arse, so I made a run for it. His stepfather then put the pedal to the metal and began circling the block looking for me to kick my arse while I was ducking behind houses and sheds to avoid getting my arse kicked. The cops had been called. Luckily, I managed to get out of the neighborhood and into an area that was relatively safe, so I slowed down and tried to catch my breath, because three hours of walking and running weren't my specialty!
Then I heard, Wup-Whoop!, and bright lights were flashing around me. "Son of a bitch," I thought. I followed the instructions given to me and I tried to explain to the cop what had happened. He was none too happy with my explanation. He said, "So, you're a smart ass huh? Boy you're lucky I don't drag you into one of those alleys and kick your fucking ass!" Then he shoved me into the police car, banging my head against the roof. As I sat there, sweating profusely, both literally and metaphorically, thinking I was going to jail, he managed to get my friend's mom on the phone and my friend explained that he was expecting me. With that, plus the key in my pocket, it was rather obvious that I wasn't trying to screw him over, so the police officer didn't file charges or anything. But, of course, he had to drive me to my house and tell my parents. My dad, furious about me being such a horrible person (I had been brought home by police before but mainly for being out at night), kicked me out of the house, so I lived on the streets for a week and a half until my mom got ahold of me and told me to come back.
But anyway, the point of my story is that cops are trained to make observations, find drugs in vehicles, tackle people, etc. but they are not trained to be judges. Many cops, especially those in bad areas, would be absolutely horrid judges. Some cops are level-headed but many of them are prejudicial fascists like the one I encountered. (It's the fascist tendencies that prompted many of them to become cops in the first place, and being cops in a bad area leads to a definite bias of counting the hits and ignoring the misses, so they tend to approach people like criminals first and then ascertain innocence, rather than the other way around.) And it's little things like these, that certainly add up, where innocent people are judged as criminals, that I insist that the government keep police officers on a short leesh. It's better for some criminals to remain unpunished than to punish those who do not deserve punishment.
The cop in the article reminds me of the cop I met that night, a fascist asshole undeserving of wearing a badge.
The actions of the cop I met that night aren't so bad when you consider the context and the adrenaline that surely pumping through his vains in knowing that there was a "criminal" running from the "crime scene," but the cop in this article has no excuse for his blatant stupidity. To fix the drug problem he take one guys drugs and make the other smoke them? What in the world is he thinking? You don't solve the drug problem by making other people use drugs and become more addicted to them! All you do is make them angry, and their friend's angry, which results in them forming a clique that absolutely will not cooperate with you, even when they're not the ones in trouble because they'd prefer that the criminal get away than to make your life easier. While you're having problems finding the criminal, the other people sit there and giggle, happy with their revenge. You want to solve the drug problem? Make them legal and have the market regulated. It was by making marijuana illegal, for instance, that made it so wildly profitably and unregulated. It's no coincidence that children find it easier to obtain marijuana than alcohol! Marijuana dealers don't check IDs.
And the idea of letting the women rob the thief was also a stupid idea. Sure, they got their revenge, but at what cost? Had they not stolen his possessions, any future argument would likely remain at the stage of a verbal dispute but since they enacted revenge on him, he's going to remember it should they ever cross paths again and it's going to escalate to violence. Your dumb idea of revenge is putting innocent people in harm's way, and it was the idea of avoiding it that caused people to give you that job in the first place.
I honestly cannot bother writing anymore on this. That guy is just too stupid for words to describe.
Stultior stulto fuisti, qui tabellis crederes!
Exactly. Their frustration at not being able to "solve" the crime problem is valid, but not a reason for them to be given more power. "Judge-on-site" doesn't do anything except make police feel better, and while I don't want to begrudge them their job satisfaction, this isn't medieval England. We're not putting people in the stocks for public display any more - for good reason.
Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence
These police practises are fascinating. I already thought about something like this, a cop like a community worker, that's a good idea. However, I don't know, how to find a cops who won't misuse it.
The best thing we can do to prevent a crime, is to rebuild the society completely. Cooperation and sharing instead of competition. De-commercialize schools and healthcare, declare the war as a crime, estabilish a tight rules about a wasteful usage of food. Make the rich pay greater taxes than the poor.
These are one of necessary steps for a permanently sustainable society. This is NOT an utopia. Utopia is a myth. Permanently sustainable society is a necessity, otherwise we can as well start sharpening stones.
Here policemen are a group of very intelligent and reliable people, because the tests and psychotests are very strict. Unfortunately, they weren't after the Velvet revolution, so a lot of...let's say not very bright guys joined the police, and they made them a reputation of dimwits since then.
And of course, this state has a corruption and bribery on a level of a banana republic, which I hope started to get better, but still it's the highest around.
For example, my bicycle was stolen. My brother found it several weeks later at someone's place and called the cops. The cops took the bicycle and contacted it's new owner. The guy of course claimed, that he bought the bicycle from someone, and he asked if he can remove a new disc brakes he had placed there. Cops allowed it. So I eventually got my bike, but without brakes, and without that guy's better brakes.
My brother should steal the bike back at the first moment he saw it, and all would be fine. Even if the guy didn't steal it (which I doubt), he would think twice before reporting a theft of a stolen bike. Justice system sometimes sucks.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
I grew up among the tiny towns of northeast TX. Really boring area to grow up in. Most of the high school kids would run around on the weekends and drink. The cops around there didn't have a whole lot to do so their favorite pasttime was trying to bust underage drinkers. For that reason most kids did not stop anywhere to hang out and drink.
They would drink and drive all night long.
Kind of fucked up but that's what all the kids were forced to do to keep from getting busted.
Heck it wasn't like that was going to keeps bored teenagers from drinking.
Just keep driving, driving, driving...
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
No we do not. We need the rule of law when it comes to people who have the ultimate authority in our society: enforcing the law. The police officers are not good judges. They are not impartial, one guy wanted to force tattoo people over a stupid DUI.
The police are only the most flawed component of a system that is flawed, of course they shouldn't be given more power to do harm. That is why any lawyer will tell you to never speak to the police under any circumstances. Even if you are innocent and you only tell the truth, the statements that you make to the police could still be used to convict you of a crime that you had nothing to do with.
Furthermore the judiciary sometimes has to act as a counterbalance to corruption in policing. If the police plant evidence on someone or they beat a person until they confess to a crime they didn't commit how can the person be exonerated if the police who did that are also the judges? Also it's just a dumb idea because anything you say to the police can be used against you but nothing you say to the police can be used in your defense it's called hearsay , so if police were also judges anyone who was ever accused of anything would automatically be guilty because there would be no avenue for them to defend themselves.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Unless you have spent any time with a cop, I suggest you not make such a judgment call about them. And NO, I am not a cop.
I work with the police, mainly the detectives and ETs (evidence technicians...no...they are not called "CSIs" ). I often drive along (I have special permission to do this) with the ETs and am AMAZED at the stupidity of a large portion of humanity, and with what they (the cops) have to deal with on a daily basis.
YOU have absolutely NO CLUE as to what they see. ALL THE TIME. It is beyond belief. If you live in the nice part of town, you probably have no idea what lurks in the less advantaged (trying to be politically correct) part of town.
I'm not saying that all cops are perfect...or that they never make mistakes. What I am saying is that before you make a judgment, walk a mile in their boots.
BTW, cop's don't call people "perps." And some of what they "believe" is backed up by criminal statistics. I think you have been watching too much TV!
Bullshit, Ento. Everybody's seen bad stuff. I bet Louis Cypher's seen far worse than any average beat cop. I myself have toured around a variety of pork processing plants we have in the province, watching pigs go from living animals to frozen household products; I've seen what happens when a freight train bulldozes over a teenage girl; I've seen countless second-hand gory photographs and videos from warzones ad snuff media. Moreover, these things are beside the point:
You're committing a logical fallacy here. Just because 'I haven't seen what most cops have seen' or 'I haven't had their experiences' does not somehow mean that I have no basis for arguing against their methods.
None of what the thee officers posted above is supported by scientific study. In fact, in almost every instance, what they claims 'definitely works' has been statistically proven false by those involved in cultural study; progressive judicial systems with less draconian policies (Hamby already pointed this out in a different thread) have the lowest rates of violent crime. If what these officers are saying is true, and their methods really are working, why is it that the United States has such atrocious violent crime statistics?
I also would like to point-out that what Fire has posted here is really quite tame. Here's an excerpt of Michael A. Stackpole's 'Pulling Report', dealing with a law enforcement officer named Larry Jones:
...So who's been watching too much TV?
Police have one job: to protect people from harm. It is not their right or responsibility to 'fix' crime, as though it were some tangible thing that could realistically be made war upon or purged from society altogther. If they should be the 'Judge on site', why bother with any kind of juidicial system at all? Load them up with as much ammunition and firepower as you can, and let them go around shooting whomever they feel is breaking the law.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
This comment perfectly describes that you have no idea what a cops sees and deals with. The above "bad stuff" is nothing. Let's not talk about books and games. I'm talking about real life...not playtime or somebody getting run over by a train.
No they are not. You must compare apples to apples. That "logical fallacy" thing...I just don't see how it is applicable here. Speaking of war games, do you possibly think you could understand what it is like to have to be deployed, let's say, to Iraq, and see what goes on there? Do you think you could understand what someone who is suffering from PTSS feels? Or would the "logical fallacy" prove me wrong?
Plus, you are making a judgment about the police based upon made up stuff. And I say "made up" because I don't believe any of the above information in the OP. I don't believe they are real people, if they are, they are idiots. And there ARE idiots who are cops...but I have never met one who made any comment that remotely resembles the BS in this OP.
Cops have to make decisions in the blink of an eye in different situations. They are NOT perfect and make mistakes. I think you should ride around with some of the cops in Jacksonville, Florida, for just a few days. Then come back and talk to me.
I don't even know where to start here. I have a minor in criminal justice. I am VERY familiar with the statistics about cops and crimes. Police officers are one of the groups that have the highest levels of alcoholism and suicide. They are the most likely to cheat on their wives and get divorced. There are 4 kinds of police officers...everybody thinks that they are power crazy. This is not true. Only about 1/4 of US officers have this problem. Still, 87% of Americans think they do.
Show me the literature or I am not interested in reading garbage about cops or about how they are bad guys. A cultural study would have completely different results than a "police" study, or a "police culture" study. And these studies have been done and are being done all the time.
Show me a "progressive judicial system" that has a "low rate of violent crime." I think we would probably not agree on either of the terms. Both are subjective. At any rate, I disagree with everything that you have written...but you are entitled to your opinion. I work with law enforcement. Do you? Oh wait, I'm committing a logical fallacy.
Quite tame? It was silly. Can we please stick to real life here?
I think we both know the answer to this question!
Where did you read this?
Kev! Are you serious????
99% of police officers in the US never fire his/her weapon. That jumbled paragraph above doesn't make any sense. What I do understand of what you wrote is not true or supported by the facts.
This thread is a perfect example of the bad press cops get for stupid reasons.
And, BTW, I have never heard a cop say that they had to "judge on site." That is ridiculous. I know hundreds of cops. I train detectives and evidence techs all over the country. Not one has ever made such an idiotic statement. The only thing they really complain about is paperwork.
Yes, as to the suicide rate for police officers, here is an anti-suicide web-site that was set up to address
that problem: http://www.tearsofacop.com/
I don't think they should do the 'judge on site.' because:
1) No paper trial. No indication that person X smacked a hooker, so if they get picked up by another cop, they would get a first time offence, lighter sentence. Where as if it's repeated, more jail time.
2) Where do you draw the line as to the punishment?
3) What if the person didn't do it?
And I hate the whole 'Don't judge cops, unless you are one.' argument.
I mean, if Marines slaughter innocent Iraqis, should we say 'You don't know what's it like to be a Marine!'
It depends on the circimstances. If a cop is caught 'judging on site' an internal investigation should be opened up, and if the cop was acting within reason, then their shouldn't be a problem. However, if the cop was excessive.......... We shouldn't just immediatly dismiss it as 'Don't judge them if you aren't one!'
It's true cops see stupid shit, but there must be a line. In all honesty if I was a cop I would fucking crack them with my baton if they so much as think of doing something stupid. This is why I'm not a cop.
EDIT:
...Fuck this.
Ento, I'm just going to rescind my argument. I don't have any strong opinion one way or the other as far as law enforcement anyway, and getting into arguments for the sake of it is a stupid habit.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Kev,
I didn't mean for my post to sound so...mean. You know I'm not myself...just not feeling well.
Anyway, I used to think just like you until I started working with them and seeing what they see. Remind me to tell you some stories when I see you in person (I hope I get to meet you at AAI). I've got some good ones.
Cops are far from perfect. I wanted to say that there are bad examples of everything: atheists, christians, doctors, police, politicians, etc. I think the writer of the OP could have done a better job of journalism...you know, when someone writes about only the worst or negative things. There will always be such things.
The officers that I work with (usually at crime scenes only) are very hard working, but I know they all have personal demons as do we all. I've never heard any of them make such a remark about the judge on the spot thing. It made me mad (not you, you didn't make me mad) to read what I thought was such baloney. They'd get fired tout de suite if they behaved like that.
Anyway, I gave a link (to a new article) on the forum for you to read. And I found an old (1997) statistical study that I though you might find interesting, but I know there are newer ones because I had to study them a few years ago. If you type in "USA law enforcement statistics" you should be able to find the same ones that I found. Apparently there are large differences between Canadian and American police.
Anyway, no hard feelings my friend...
The local cops here are partially like that. we got some new guys in from Pittsburgh and they feel the need to enforce every law possible. And i know those ones would like to be judge on site, they have already had two fired for having two criminals fight each other.( why they had them fight inside the jail where there are cameras i dont know, they were 5 feet away from a door that when outside to a yard w/o cameras... the cops that are local and have been here in this town for many years try to fight the stuff that needs fighting in this town, they usually try to just get you off with a warning if it aint that serious, like it was already said they dont like the paper work (the ones from pitts take you in for anything, they took a 12 year old in for shoplifting the other day. whereas i know that the other cops would have taken him home because a mother/ father can do much worse than anything a cop could do). We have a really large drug problem around here because we are so secluded that people from large cities come here and make their drugs and then take them back...
I agree not all cops are like this but i just seems that the ones from the city are worse than anyother i have run into yet.
this is all true they do judge on site and one of them really got fucked for doing it with me. i was driving home one night got pulled over and the cop accused me of being drunk. i can't drink 4 glasses of wine on thanksgiving puts me out like a light. i never drink at work. he was shoked when i asked if i could have a blood test knowing full well that my sober ass would pass it easy.
they beat on people and handcuff them for no reason see the don't taze me bro, any id10t cops episode, as well as the McDonald's short change incident
cops deserve the respect they give to the common man here in the USA none 0 zip nada
i have personally witnessed several incidents where the cops have taken and abused authority they are the problem not the solution here in the USA
the war on drugs is a farce just like prohibition you cannot cure a behavioral disorder with prosecution
the war on sex is a disorder marriage is prostitution here in ND they just live off of the guys wages like in the 50's
the war on terror is a joke that isn't funny no one is catching terrorists but we are tapping us citizens telephones illegally
the gun laws suck too guns always seen to land in criminal hands anymore but me buying a gun for self defense is almost a crime anymore
the saddest thing is these cops are guilty of treason and i think the best punishment for a bad cop is banishment from the USA to myanmar (burma) where they can get a taste of that judge on site for themselves
mohammed is mr poopy pants allah is a cootie queen and islam is a lint licker
http://seekerblog.com/wp-content/uploads/_blogger_5932_1957_1600_religion_of_peace_1-1.jpg
skywolf wrote:
nearly one million law enforcement Officers in the U.S. of both sexes, all ethnicities, orientations, political leanings, some theist, some not, but all of them judge on site. Thank you for such an enlightened and balanced perspective.
I'm not sure this makes any sense, but I am sure it happened just like you said.
I'm also sure not a single one of them is familiar w/ the concept of accountability. It's probably never come up even once in their training or career.
For this statement to have any credibility, you would first have to display something of a balanced perspective. Not looking real good is it ?
I love generalizations that wander into pointlessness.
Good point, but last time I checked, law enforcement has little to no say in enacting or dismissing legislation. I believe that would be your government.
Cops that continually make prejudicial statements and base their decisions on a lack of information/education, prejudiced beliefs and over generalizing certain segments of the population should get a swift kick in the ass and lose their jobs.
For a mental picture of what type of person would actually do such a thing, skywolf, I want you to take a long deep look into the mirror.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
Everyone knows that there are cops that follow the rules and there are those that don't and that's why most PD's have an office of Internal Affairs. The only thing about that concept that bugs me is that it's cops investigating other cops.
No matter how well intentioned their motive it seems to fall within a "conflict of interest" scenario. It's like having John Gotti investigate the Mafia.
mohammed is mr poopy pants allah is a cootie queen and islam is a lint licker
http://seekerblog.com/wp-content/uploads/_blogger_5932_1957_1600_religion_of_peace_1-1.jpg
some one here has seen what i saw this one sherrif got found out with a methlab in his basement and got off scot free and moved on to another town and yes it was even coverd in the local paper
mohammed is mr poopy pants allah is a cootie queen and islam is a lint licker
http://seekerblog.com/wp-content/uploads/_blogger_5932_1957_1600_religion_of_peace_1-1.jpg
My father-in-law is a game warden, and while it's something of a far cry from prostitution and drug-dealing, he does engage in some forms of creative policing that I can't say I'm opposed to.
He's essentially in the business of catching people in the act of breaking laws, whether it's hunting without a license, hunting game that's out of season, shooting from a road, etc. (usually he catches people doing all three at the same time).
What he'll often do is negotiate the fines while he's out in the field with the perpetrator - essentially acting as judge on site. He'll know that he can legitimately cite someone for, say, $2,500 worth of fines. But he'll allow someone to plead guilty to lesser charges if they pay the fine immediately - thereby saving the state the time and expense of a trial.
I don't mind giving police some frontline judgement power within a certain set of guidelines. One problem with the court system in the U.S., especially in larger cities, is that they are backed up with way too many small cases.
If police are finding that some of these creative tactics are working, they should be lobbying the state legislatures for permission to do some limited trials as see what happens.
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
so basically your father in law uses the threat of excessive fines to coerce and intimidate people to opt out of their right to access to a court system where they may be able to prove that his allegations against them are false. and you think this form of extortion should be used for the sake of expediency. what if a police officer did that to you with a traffic ticket?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itmNiTwHOsM
out of control cops and crinamals who are just as bad hmm
mohammed is mr poopy pants allah is a cootie queen and islam is a lint licker
http://seekerblog.com/wp-content/uploads/_blogger_5932_1957_1600_religion_of_peace_1-1.jpg
Where the hell do you people live? I don't know what training standards are like in other states but California has on-going training for cops and professional standards. If a cop does something violating department policy or any statute they are called on the carpet. Internal Affairs, while made up of cops, is generally made up of highly concientious ones who conduct their investigations with professionalism. Having said that, when Internal Affairs calls you're more likely to be considered guilty until proven innocent. Cops don't have the same rights as regular civilians. If a cop refuses to answer questions (can you say Miranda) they will likely lose their jobs for insubordination.
As far as bad cops go, the vast majority of them are professional and do not do any of the things mentioned in this thread. That's not to say there are no bad cops because there certainly are, just as there are bad apples in every profession as Ento mentioned earlier (although you mentioned politicians; I don't think there are any politicians that aren't bad
 
. I've known several cops over the years who have gone bad. Inevitably, they get caught (at least they do here) and are taken care of.
Cops do not need more power, they have all the power they need as long as it is used wisely and not in a heavy-handed way. Discretion is a big part of a cop's job. They use it all the time in determining the best course of action to take during any given situation. It is not discretion when one breaks the law. Cops are not supposed to be judge and jury, they are enforcers of the law. They are also social workers, psychologists, arbiters, medics, teachers, and a whole host of other things.
I disagree that cops are not good judges. Most cops (at least here) know not just the law, they are quite familiar with court decisions as well. As I said, training is an on-going process here in California. That being said, cops are not judges and it is not in their purview to act as such. As far as cops being flawed is concerned, they are no more flawed than the general public. The system is far from perfect that's true, however, I think the whole human race is fundamentally flawed otherwise there would be little need for cops. Most cops merely try to do the best they can with what they have to work with.
The job can get frustrating and I agree that's no excuse to act outside the law. A crook gets arrested and is out of jail before the cop finishes the paperwork. You see a perp get kicked because you forgot to check a box on a report. A cop is dead and the shooter gets off because enough of his friends lie and create a reasonable doubt. A little girl is raped and murdered and you have to tell the parents their little girl will not be coming home. An airliner crashes in a residential area and you end up helping to dig body parts out of the wreckage. A man is on PCP and he eviscerates a pregnant woman because he thinks the spawn of satan in inside her. You see bodies damn near everyday because some asshole doesn't know how to drive. Goddamn right it's a frustrating job, but the majority of cops do it everyday because they care about the community and take pride in what they do. Most cops don't think it's their responsibility to fix crime, just to prevent the crime if they can and if they can't to arrest the suspect and put him in jail. Their job after that is to write the crime report with just the facts as they happened and with an eye toward conviction, not railroading with false or misleading information in the report.
The biggest problem cops are faced with is people who do not understand what it is like to do the job day after day and then come home and play husband/wife, father/mother, or whatever else their lives are about. You look at your children and wonder how you would handle it if they became a victim at the hands of a child molester. Would you do what you are supposed to do and let they system take it's course or would you handle it yourself because it's personal now.
Many people see a cop at the donut shop getting a cup of coffee and assume that's all they do all day long, they didn't see him shagging radio calls all day without a break. They see a cop hauling ass down the road and assume he's abusing his power, not going to an armed robbery in progress. A cop gets into a firefight with a gang member and he's vilified as trigger happy because he happens to be a different race than the suspect, never mind the suspect was shooting at him first.
Cops sometimes lose control in situations that are particularly trying. Walking in on child abuse or child sexual abuse as it is happening. Coming across a rape in progress and having to chase the bastard down and he fights when finally tackled. The callousness of gang members who killed a 2 year old in a drive-by and have the attitude that it was the child's fault for getting in the way of the bullet. Working a particularly horrific collision with fatalities that include children the same age as yours and having to contend with looky-loos and stupid questions like "did anyone get hurt?" Yeah, it happens and sometimes good people do bad things.
I've known people who generalize a situation they have misinterpreted, or perhaps correctly interpreted, but then apply it to the entire population of cops. Generalizing is as ignorant as believing in the literalness of the bible.
Skywolf, Edward Lawson was definitely wronged. I know him from San Diego where he was a black man with dreadlocks in an affluent white neighborhood (La Jolla is San Diego's equivalent of Beverly Hills) being arrested repeatedly for failing to identify himself to police officers when that law was on the books and arguably valid. The 3 officers involved (SDPD and CHP) stopped him repeatedly and arrested him each time he refused to ID himself. Their first arrest was valid under the law at that time because they had no other means to identify him. However, each subsequent arrest by those same three officers was a violation of his rights because they knew who he was. Other officers came across Lawson on calls about a suspicious black man (you know how those rich white folk are) and didn't even bother to stop him because they knew who he was. The law was subsequently struck down by the courts as unconstitutionally vague and California lost what was a good tool. Lawson has since made his life's work to go around the country challenging laws like that. I have no problem with that.
I have no problem with the convictions of cops who act like gang members being convicted for abuse under color of authority. I have a problem with people who generalize and cite a handful of instances out of millions and saying this is how all cops are. It's like saying all christians are bad and citing the inquisitions to prove it, or saying atheists are evil because they don't have morals. It just doesn't cut it.
I loved Judge Dredd, great escapism. I would bet that only a handful of cops in this nation would like to see that happen. Most cops would rather see something more akin to what Hollywood depicted the 50's as being (unrealistic especially as far as minorities were concerned). Survival is paramount in a cop's life and wishing for a society like the one in Judge Dredd would be just a bit psychotic. We may indeed be heading in that direction but I doubt any cop is really looking forward to something like that.
Cops have to put up with a lot of crap. False complaints from defendants trying to get charges against them dropped. Being assaulted simply because you are a cop. Idiots you deal with on the street hurling insults because they are pissed at getting a ticket for nearly running down a pedestrian in the crosswalk. Rich assholes threatening your job if you give them a ticket saying they'll have a talk with the police chief who's a personal friend of theirs. Doing traffic control in the middle of an intersection when the temperature is in the 100's. People staring at you as you sit eating a lunch you likely won't get to finish because departments are almost always shorthanded.
It's one of the toughest, most dangerous jobs there is. Everyday you go to work could be your last. You get shot at, spit at, assaulted, and the next traffic stop you make could be your last because the little old lady driving it is really a 35 yo ex-con who just robbed a liquor store wearing a disguise. You may be able to judge a given incident after knowing the facts but don't pretend to know what is going through a cops mind as he/she handles the preliminary investigation of that 3 yo girl, raped and murdered, who is the same age as your own daughter.
Crime scene pohotos are disturbing to the general public but they don't have the same inpact as actually seeing a 3 yo bruised and bloodied, her vagina torn from forced penetration, her body lifeless. Photos do not have the same inpact as actually seeing body parts strewn over a neighborhood from a plane crash. Seeing an actor shot in a Hollywood movie does not have the same inpact as actually seeing someone shot or shooting someone who has given you no alternative. Unless you've gone through the training and actually done the job, you cannot begin to appreciate the impact it has on the psyche of a cop. The images stay with you your whole life. You may become unured to it but you will have those images flash in your mind almost every day until the day you die. It never goes away.
I'm not saying cops should never be criticised, merely that one should choose words carefully only after knowing the facts before doing so. Too many are too quick to criticise knowing only that the cop is in the donut shop getting a cup of coffee.
"Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." Thomas Jefferson
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This is the most ridiculous, not to mention unfounded, thing that I have ever read.
I think that the wost part of it is that this kind of propaganda leads the general public to believe that the individuals who put their lives on the line EVERY SINGLE DAY do it out of some kind of exalted power trip.. as though, they find themselves to be some kind of master of the universe.. when in fact, they are simply acting on a desire to protect you and me from the everyday "bad guys" that everyone is always accusing them of not catching.
I don't argue for one moment that there are good and bad cops.. but you know what, there are "good and bad" everywhere you look! It has nothing to do with the human nature of "a cop".. it has everthing to do with human nature... period!
I wonder how often we think about how much we rely on the very heroes that we bash every day.. that is, until it is OUR house that is robbed... our family member that is murdered... our life that is on the line... our building that is bombed...
I find it interesting to find so many people defending police that don't deserve a defense. Since the general weal of arguments has centred around "you're not a cop" bs, I can personally intervene on the other side.
I have worked hand in hand with police, it was my job to do so, for more than a decade. I in fact did the job they used to do before society's capitalism allowed for contracting out the lower tier police services to security agencies.
90% of all cops I have ever encountered in any manner are arrogant, egotistical, lazy, hypocritical, uneducated assholes. I say this with full experience of its reality over widespread regions of the second largest nation in the world, with experience dealing with foreign police agencies both directly and indirectly as well.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I would be happier with a police force that was educated, and held to a higher standard than citizens for criminal activity.
Killing somone in a police station, who is unarmed should recieve the harshest possible response to that officer. Instead of "put on leave temporarily". They should be held by federal agents (not local) until a court date.
If they are held to higher standards, it would improve trust in them significantly. They are allowed too much free reign as it is in many areas, and that is why most of us do not like local law enforcement.
The cops here at my campus for example, sell drugs to students, and bust students that buy from other dealers to resell some of what they took. They have been investigated for this a few times already, but of course they are never caught and are aware of the investigations.
Complete double standard.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
The most frequent example of a double standard with the police that pretty well everyone and their grandmother can attest to is speeding. If I had a hundredth of a cent for every time I saw a cop speeding when not in pursuit of a criminal or on his way to a crime scene/emergency, I'd be rich.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Here's an excellent example of cops being hard at work.
This was a story from May, I believe. I also believe the deputy was not charged with anything.
Yeah. The Police definitely have the best interests of citizens in mind.
- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940
Yeah that makes me trust them. Charged with assault? Really? That is all? Not battery?
There should hold officers to a higher standard if anything, not a lesser one.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
The strategies proposed by the OP appear to violate the fundamental principles of law which are supposedly enforced by police such as "everyone is equal in the eyes of the law, and nobody is above the rule of law, including those who enforce it" and second "all persons have the right to due process under the law". The police force do not have the right to violate the Sixth Amendment, and certainly not the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
If you beat up a person like that and then you said "hey, that video doesn't show my side of the story" they would probably lock you under the jail.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Nice post. Well said, and balanced.
Granted, the response given was also equally unbalanced.
There's good and bad cops, just as you said.
The problem is cops have more direct power than most, at all times in all places.
They need to be held accountable for abuse of it.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.